0:06

From NBI Studios,

0:09

this is Truth

0:12

and Justice, a

0:14

crowd-sourced investigation in

0:17

real time. I'm

0:19

Bob Roth. Ohhoy,

0:36

friends, you are listening to the

0:38

Friday follow-up for season 16, episode

0:40

9, where Bob had a really

0:42

interesting conversation with CJ from Rainbow

0:45

Crimes. They talked about what it's

0:47

like to represent a specific community

0:49

or marginalized group in some cases

0:51

while doing a podcast, and we

0:53

definitely have some feedback and some

0:55

questions from listeners, and there's probably

0:57

some other stuff that we'll cover

1:00

as well. But we are songs

1:02

Zach today. We miss him. He is on

1:04

assignment. and hopefully he will be back with

1:06

us next week. Yeah, and before we get

1:08

into the episode, got a few housekeeping things

1:10

I want to cover. Great. One of them

1:13

is, I know a lot of you guys

1:15

keep asking about my students' podcasts and where

1:17

that's going, and they could potentially use your

1:19

help. I didn't discuss this with them, but

1:21

I thought I would throw it out to

1:24

you guys since we're all talking about it.

1:26

So first of all, we're very close. One

1:28

group has fully recorded all of their

1:30

episodes, and they're in there in edit.

1:32

There's another group that's recorded two

1:34

of their episodes and they're editing

1:36

those, getting ready to record the third. I

1:39

think everybody has recorded at least one now,

1:41

so like they're in full production mode now. I

1:43

haven't put the trailer out yet because we're

1:45

still getting the music done. One of my

1:47

other students has been creating all the music

1:49

for the podcast where, and as you guys

1:51

know, I always said when I was working with Shane

1:54

back in the day, I don't speak music, so

1:56

it's very hard for me to help communicate

1:58

to help communicate with them. know

2:00

what I mean? You know, so there's

2:02

a lot of that going on. But

2:04

we're getting the music squared away, super

2:06

excited about. The kids all just recorded

2:08

a really cool intro for it. Nice.

2:10

Some VO for the intro, very excited

2:12

about that. So the trailer should be

2:14

coming anytime. And I would say within

2:16

the next two weeks, the podcasts are

2:18

going to come out. So very excited

2:20

about that. What I wanted to mention

2:22

to you guys is what I, one

2:24

of the things that I assigned them

2:26

to do. We have a very small

2:28

budget to do the work that we're

2:30

doing and that includes equipment and all

2:32

those different things. Right. And we have

2:34

in this class requires a lot of

2:36

expense. A lot of it goes to

2:38

FOIA requests. You know, and we have

2:40

one, for example, right now. One of

2:42

my students was able to get approved

2:44

for a FOIA for a case filed.

2:47

No one's ever seen before. This happened

2:49

on a couple of my cases, a

2:51

couple of other cases where the kids

2:53

just did such a phenomenal job of...

2:55

wording their FOIA requests and arguing and

2:57

appealing and things to get them. One

2:59

of them, they said they were at

3:01

least the full case file to us,

3:03

but the full case file is $5,600

3:05

and we don't have that in the

3:07

budget. So we had to like, well,

3:09

we'll take this piece of it. How

3:11

much if we just want just this

3:13

little piece of it? So there's a

3:15

lot of stuff like that going on

3:17

and of course equipment and stuff we

3:19

can use for field recording and things

3:21

like that. One of the things that

3:23

comes along with producing a podcast is

3:25

to obtain advertisers. So I have assigned

3:27

the kids last week that they have

3:29

two weeks, they all have to go

3:31

out and get a sponsorship for the

3:33

podcast. So they have to contact businesses

3:35

or local businesses, make the pitch to

3:37

them that, you know, this is, you

3:39

know, it can be documented as it's

3:41

a donation to school, it's tax deductible.

3:43

It's going to help fund our program

3:45

and explain the value proposition of the

3:47

work that they're doing trying to put

3:49

exposure onto these cases and You know,

3:51

they want to you know get justice

3:53

for these victims and what they would

3:55

use the money for and then they're

3:57

selling ads for the podcast and they

3:59

said We have set up three tiers

4:01

where for $100 they get a mention

4:03

on an episode where it's just you

4:05

know today's episode is sponsored by Phil

4:07

in the blank for $250 they get

4:09

a 30-second pre-roll ad and for $500

4:12

they get a full 90-second mid-roll ad

4:14

in the episodes and the students have

4:16

been like it's it's really cool watch

4:18

it number one I think it's amazing

4:20

and like our administration is so just

4:22

just overwhelmed with these kids because they're

4:24

actually funding their own work. Like our

4:26

our my students are out there bringing

4:28

revenue in the net money goes directly

4:30

into we have a special account they

4:32

set up just for my class that

4:34

can only be spent on things that

4:36

are needed for the investigative journalism class

4:38

they've already raised over $2,000 in in

4:40

a short period of time and just

4:42

seeing like the like on their face

4:44

gales they're all nervous about going to

4:46

talk to somebody at a business they

4:48

don't know and then they all keep

4:50

coming back and like they were so

4:52

excited just like one of them would

4:54

just had But actually, Tad is one

4:56

of our listeners in the channel a

4:58

lot that, you know, his wife is

5:00

a co-owner of a coffee shop, second

5:02

main coffee here in Niles. You know,

5:04

they contacted them and they're like, well,

5:06

how many episodes can we sponsor? So

5:08

like, they're kind of, like, they're, like,

5:10

they're, so we have more coming in.

5:12

Yeah, so it's really cool for the

5:14

kids. It's cool for them doing it.

5:16

This is what I would like you

5:18

to do. Shoot me an email at

5:20

theories at truthadjustice.com. You can put in

5:22

the subject line, you know, sponsorship, investigative

5:24

journalism, something, anything like that. And what

5:26

I'm going to do is I will

5:28

not take your sponsorship. What I would

5:30

like to do is send me contact

5:32

information that I can pass on to

5:34

students and say, here are people that

5:36

are interested in sponsoring your podcast. You

5:39

can reach out to them and contact

5:41

them and contact them. Because I want

5:43

them to go through the process of,

5:45

you know, making the pitch and explaining

5:47

what it's used for. and getting it

5:49

because I also want them to I

5:51

want them to have that win also

5:53

you know so that they're when they

5:55

see that we're able to get new

5:57

field recording equipment, that that's because they

5:59

went out and earned that. So I

6:01

think that would be amazing. And I'm

6:03

sure there are people that are listening

6:05

that would love to do that. So

6:07

again, if you're interested in doing that

6:09

or you know a small business or

6:11

something or a business that would like

6:13

to, I suspect this thing is going

6:15

to get a lot of downloads because

6:17

I haven't done it yet, but I'm

6:19

gonna be tapping into. some of my

6:21

some of my friends in the industry

6:23

and asking them if they'd be willing

6:25

to help promote the work that these

6:27

kids are doing because I just I

6:29

want to see I want to see

6:31

their eyes light up when they get

6:33

a million downloads on an episode yeah

6:35

and I think it's possible if everybody's

6:37

sharing it and doing it their work

6:39

is being heard like that so they'll

6:41

be a lot of exposure for that

6:43

also at the same time if you

6:45

are some people have asked me about

6:47

this before we weren't set up for

6:49

it now we are now we are

6:51

if you're listening to this and you're

6:53

like to the Same thing, write me

6:55

an email about that, I can give

6:57

you all the information for that, if

6:59

you'd like to donate it. It all

7:01

goes, it obviously doesn't go to me,

7:03

it goes directly to the school, it

7:06

goes to our community school, and it

7:08

will be earmarked, so it is put

7:10

directly into account for the kids to

7:12

use for that class. So I want

7:14

to throw that out there, so if

7:16

anybody has any desire to participate in

7:18

that, I would love it, and I

7:20

think the kids will be super excited

7:22

about it as well. Our next case,

7:24

season 17, we have a, I'll call

7:26

it a soft green light on it.

7:28

All right. In that, so like, you

7:30

know, the attorneys were working the case,

7:32

were like, yes, let's do it. They

7:34

talked to the individual in prison, and

7:36

they said, yes, let's do it. But

7:38

then they had to go, there's a,

7:40

the law firm had to go up

7:42

to the council, whoever has to approve,

7:44

you know, what that looks like, and

7:46

what they're going to be allowed to

7:48

share and what not. Got an email

7:50

yesterday and they asked me to send

7:52

them our standard podcast release form so

7:54

that they can see what that looks

7:56

like so they can work up the

7:58

document. They need to work up on

8:00

their end to send to me. So

8:02

it sounds like we are going to

8:04

be, I can't say 100% because we

8:06

haven't got that back in, but it

8:08

sounds like we are going to be

8:10

a go. And Erica has already read

8:12

all of the trial transcripts, all of

8:14

the police files that we have in

8:16

this index those. And now she's in

8:18

the process. Her assignment this week is

8:20

to go through all the post conviction

8:22

documents, and she's writing me up a

8:24

summary so I can see like. what's

8:26

already been attempted and what failed and

8:28

what didn't you know what what and

8:31

why it failed so we have an

8:33

idea of what we're looking at going

8:35

forward so we're in real good shape

8:37

there we're probably if we got a

8:39

green light today I would say six

8:41

weeks tops we'll be ready we'll be

8:43

fully ready to go on our season

8:45

17 case and it is a it's

8:47

another fascinating case so I'm looking forward

8:49

to getting into that so let me

8:51

give you a soft congratulations for that

8:53

And really, think both Erica and Dr.

8:55

Nikki Jackson, who was on the show,

8:57

because Erica found the case and reconnected

8:59

with us, who had originally been brought

9:01

to me by Dr. Jackson. Teresa in

9:03

the chat, just said, does it have

9:05

to be a local business regarding my

9:07

students? No, that was the thing. Because

9:09

it's going to be, this podcast will

9:11

be international. So anybody can do it.

9:13

Yeah, they can be from anywhere in

9:15

the world, they can do it. for

9:17

my kids for like the standard stuff

9:19

they're doing I told them to go

9:21

to local businesses here because people that

9:23

you know local businesses want to the

9:25

idea of high school kids going out

9:27

to like really try to make a

9:29

difference in the world and they're they've

9:31

been so gracious and so happy to

9:33

help support that you know outside of

9:35

there you know not many people know

9:37

who we are what we're doing but

9:39

I know my audience those you that

9:41

are listening you do what I know

9:43

a lot of you like to support

9:45

things like this so That's why I

9:47

opened that up. But I'm still going

9:49

to make them do the work to

9:51

get, even if you're waiving a, waiving

9:53

a dollar bill in front of them,

9:55

still going to make them ask you

9:58

for it. Okay, all right. And you

10:00

know, if you don't have a business

10:02

to advertise, this is your opportunity to

10:04

do a really great prank advertisement on

10:06

Bob. You could be like IP Freele's.

10:08

vacuum service. Yeah. Maybe don't do that.

10:10

Yeah. Maybe don't do that. Yeah. Also,

10:12

obviously, remember this, these are, these are

10:14

high school students advertising for a school

10:16

podcast. So no alcohol, no drug, no

10:18

gun, none of that stuff will be

10:20

permitted to be advertised for. But again,

10:22

too, anybody, like you can, you can,

10:24

you can, you can, you can donate

10:26

anything you can do to help would

10:28

be amazing. With

10:41

that, okay, how do you want to

10:44

do it Janet? Because I feel like

10:46

you probably have some stuff, some thoughts

10:48

on the Dula episode from the week

10:50

before. Because we were really missing you

10:53

last week. Do you want to talk

10:55

about that first or about the CJ

10:57

episode first? Oh, well, I mean, I

11:00

think we can, we can sort of

11:02

talk about both of them because, you

11:04

know, I mean, look, I don't know

11:06

that I have like a ton of

11:09

specific stuff to add other than to

11:11

say that, you know, especially with the

11:13

dual episode, but really here about this

11:16

this reminder and this reinforcing that people

11:18

are really trying to do from a

11:20

micro level. You know, we feel so

11:22

overwhelmed sometimes when we talk about, I

11:25

think these are all the time in

11:27

a way, when we talk about being

11:29

up against a big machine, being up

11:32

against a corporation, being up against a

11:34

system, a broken system by the system

11:36

nonetheless, especially one that's kind of been

11:38

hardwired into, you know, practice, feeling like...

11:41

what can I as one person do?

11:43

And so that's that was just another

11:45

very different really interesting very cool perspective

11:47

coming in saying look you know I'm

11:50

having one-on-one interactions with these people now

11:52

of course it's grown out to be

11:54

more of a network and it's having

11:57

more and more of an impact but

11:59

just the idea of like finding where

12:01

the whole are to plug them up

12:03

or finding those opportunities and making more

12:06

of a life for someone who you

12:08

know if we had like all the

12:10

confidence in the world and the prison

12:13

system that might be a different conversation

12:15

but we don't and you know people

12:17

who follow this podcast I think have

12:19

a broader more nuanced understanding as well

12:22

of what the kind of people that

12:24

are in there's all kinds of people.

12:26

And that there's all kinds of reasons

12:28

that people end up in prison and

12:31

especially the idea of like not wanting

12:33

a child to suffer. I just that

12:35

seems like such a no-brainer. You know

12:38

what I mean? It's one of those

12:40

things where you just go, oh my

12:42

God, of course. How have we not

12:44

been through? Yeah, like how have we

12:47

not given me a break, you know?

12:49

So I found that to be extremely

12:51

inspiring and again just another great indicator

12:54

of like people who instead of feeling

12:56

overwhelmed and just like walking away from

12:58

something are you know finding ways to

13:00

to be a part of positive change.

13:03

So I thought that was a wonderful

13:05

episode and then and then you know

13:07

with CJ like it's just very cool

13:10

that CJ is you know saw an

13:12

opportunity again in in that space and

13:14

felt like that was something that she

13:16

wanted to draw a circle around and

13:19

really highlight and give more ears to

13:21

and potentially get more resolution for people

13:23

where when there are unsolved cases and

13:25

stuff like that I don't know yeah

13:28

I thought I thought I thought it

13:30

was great as well I'm trying to

13:32

think if there's anything specific I mean

13:35

obviously that she was talking about is

13:37

just another It's just so hard when

13:39

they're just infuriating cases, just infuriating cases

13:41

where you're like, how much more information

13:44

do you need before you, A, solve

13:46

this thing, or B, get the person

13:48

who has been convicted for this falsely,

13:51

out. Because there's nothing there. And in

13:53

many cases, there's evidence pointing strongly to

13:55

another person. Yeah, it's the whole idea

13:57

of the like, you know, as Shane

14:00

Waters always puts it, the throwaways, you

14:02

know, the people that are looked upon

14:04

as less than, less than human, less

14:07

than important. I like, I like how

14:09

you drew that parallel. I hadn't thought

14:11

about that way. Both are like, you

14:13

know, finding that whole to plug. Because,

14:16

you know, with, you know, the Raylene

14:18

in the Dula program. You know, there's

14:20

something like, yeah, it makes sense, but

14:22

how do we never think about it

14:25

before? And it's like there's not one

14:27

problem with the prison system in the

14:29

criminal justice system. There's a thousand problems.

14:32

And, you know, there's, I think it's,

14:34

I think it's, I just think it's

14:36

amazing that there are people out there

14:38

that are finding the little, the little

14:41

problems that nobody's ever thought about. wanting

14:43

to protect those communities, wanting to protect

14:45

marginalized communities, and wanting to, you know,

14:48

create environments where people can feel safe.

14:50

And, you know, just if I could,

14:52

just to kind of jump in, Emmett

14:54

posted something on our Facebook and talking

14:57

about like things that are happening in

14:59

the current government and really wanting to

15:01

be careful not to make anything about

15:04

national politics or national decisions or federal

15:06

decisions, things that are happening in administrations

15:08

that administrations that you know, have been

15:10

very controversial for a lot of the

15:13

country in one direction or the other,

15:15

whether it's controversy that's supported or that's

15:17

controversial, that you don't support it or

15:19

what have you. So, so, Emmett, you

15:22

know, you're saying, I don't want to

15:24

bring up national politics, but because there

15:26

apparently has been a sort of elimination

15:29

of, like, just this idea of, how

15:31

can we protect that marginalized community, you

15:33

know, and And we use a lot

15:35

of terms like allies and advocates and

15:38

stuff like that. But at the end

15:40

of the day, whatever you label yourself,

15:42

I mean, I don't, honestly, like, I'm

15:45

not real concerned right now about where

15:47

you fall in terms of what you

15:49

think is real or not real or

15:51

a fashion or real life or what,

15:54

how about we just, if a kid

15:56

is missing and endangered, any information that

15:58

you can get and that you can

16:01

convey out there. that possibly will help

16:03

that child be safer, you know, and

16:05

I'm speaking all the way up till,

16:07

you know, through teenagers and stuff. I

16:10

just want us to, I wish, I

16:12

just, I would like for our priorities

16:14

to stay about, again, we're talking about

16:16

a person, a single person, you don't

16:19

have to think of it as national

16:21

politics, you can just think of it

16:23

as like, wouldn't I want each person

16:26

to have a better chance at being

16:28

safe if they're not doing anything? Yeah,

16:30

and this is so the only bit

16:32

of national politics I guess that I

16:35

would weigh in on is there are

16:37

big Important things that are happening that

16:39

needed to be focused on and I

16:42

just know and I'm only speaking for

16:44

myself Self personally Like it's getting very

16:46

frustrating for me that I feel like

16:48

people are taking the bait a lot

16:51

right that like I feel like there's

16:53

been like we're gonna be outraged at

16:55

everything because we don't like where we're

16:58

at and I think that the danger

17:00

in that is it all becomes noise

17:02

and you know I've had conversations with

17:04

you know friends on both sides of

17:07

the political spectrum and they both they

17:09

all think that I'm on the other

17:11

side from them because I'm always kind

17:13

of arguing the front you know from

17:16

the middle a little bit but the

17:18

big thing that I that I keep

17:20

trying to push back on this like

17:23

listen if you if you keep screaming

17:25

about everything about everything and the things

17:27

that aren't important No one's listening when

17:29

they are important and I'm not here

17:32

to even say what is important. It

17:34

is important. That's everybody's personal choice, but

17:36

that's but it's stuff like this like

17:39

like that's That's an important thing. And

17:41

if you get caught up, I'll give

17:43

an example, and maybe this is to

17:45

make people mad, but if you spend

17:48

two weeks trying to convince everybody in

17:50

the world and every social media platform

17:52

and everything you have that Elon Musk

17:54

is a Nazi because of a gesture

17:57

he made, they're not going to listen

17:59

to you when there's a really important

18:01

issue that's going on. And I'm not

18:04

even here to argue about that, but

18:06

to me, like, that's the, and I'm

18:08

not doing this to argue politics. I'm

18:10

uncomfortable as you guys don't know even

18:13

even having this conversation, but that's where

18:15

my frustration is coming in. It's like

18:17

there are very important things that we

18:20

need to be fighting and in that

18:22

fight becomes moot if you're just fighting

18:24

everything for the sake of fighting and

18:26

you're trying to make things important that

18:29

maybe aren't important than we lose sight

18:31

of what is important. So everybody for

18:33

their own, wherever you're at in the

18:36

political spectrum, that's up to you, but

18:38

I just my if anybody gives a

18:40

shit what I think about anything about

18:42

anything about anything. is because of things

18:45

like this, right, is to choose your

18:47

battles isn't the right, maybe it is

18:49

the right term, I don't know, I

18:51

don't know where I get it, but

18:54

that just, I don't, that just triggered

18:56

me a little bit because I'm just

18:58

seeing so much of it, I just

19:01

want to say stop, stop doing this,

19:03

because they're not listening to you now

19:05

when there's, about the important stuff. So

19:07

that's my rant. Well, and I would

19:10

just say to that too, like, like,

19:12

we're speaking to like, we're speaking of

19:14

systems, we're speaking of systems, I mean,

19:17

that's social media is, I mean, it's

19:19

a system that's designed to inflame. It's

19:21

a system that's a design to feedback

19:23

loop. It's a system that's designed to

19:26

reward saying every gesture means X and

19:28

blah, blah, blah, and I might have

19:30

accidentally chosen the word X or the

19:33

letter X on purpose. But it's easy

19:35

to get swept up in that and

19:37

again, yeah, to sort of be stuck

19:39

in that loop and not be doing

19:42

anything except. just getting angry or you

19:44

know and so figure out what's healthy

19:46

for you and how you can spend

19:48

your time in real time with real

19:51

people trying to impact that change instead

19:53

of, I agree, like, you know, getting

19:55

swept up in something where you're just

19:58

angry all the time and you can't

20:00

even really do anything for yourself or

20:02

other people. Yeah, and for your mental

20:04

health aspect, for one, exactly, you can't

20:07

be angry all the time like that.

20:09

It's just not, it's not going to

20:11

be, it's not okay, it's not good

20:14

for you. But also too, like, like,

20:16

there's a whole idea of like playing

20:18

chess or checkers, like sadly. Sometimes like

20:20

you have to be playing chess you

20:23

have to you have to be strategic

20:25

about your messaging and what you're doing

20:27

and Yeah, I just feel like a

20:30

lot of people on both sides are

20:32

falling short screaming about stuff that doesn't

20:34

need to be screamed about so loud

20:36

that when there's when there when there's

20:39

the thing that is should be screamed

20:41

about You've already been tuned out. Yeah,

20:43

and again we are in a system

20:45

that is that is perpetuating that binary.

20:48

It's it's it's this or that it

20:50

isn't it just doesn't have to be

20:52

that way. that's we keep getting precondition

20:55

to like you're this or you're this

20:57

period and I get it and I

20:59

get it especially when people are afraid

21:01

afraid of what's gonna happen to them

21:04

afraid of what's gonna happen to their

21:06

loved ones and I'm speaking again across

21:08

all plateaus fear is running rampant right

21:11

now in a lot of different ways

21:13

and it's it's hard to it's hard

21:15

to watch and that's why we like

21:17

coming to places like this or focusing

21:20

in on those people that are doing

21:22

some good that's you know, that's making

21:24

a difference in whatever space they're able

21:27

to do it that also enforces them

21:29

feeling like what I'm doing is worth

21:31

it and they come back and do

21:33

it the next day instead of giving

21:36

up. Absolutely. You know, and wanting to

21:38

support that. Liz

21:52

says, I really appreciated your questions about

21:54

how CJ finds cases, especially given how

21:56

many have been covered by rainbow crimes.

21:58

What's track? would you recommend for finding

22:00

worthy cases to investigate, especially for those

22:03

of us who are interested in getting

22:05

into this kind of work? Could you

22:07

share a bit more detail about the

22:09

steps in your vetting process too? Well,

22:11

it's a little different in my vetting

22:13

process because we've been established for 10

22:15

years, so we get a constant flood

22:17

of requests from people to look at

22:19

cases, right? So people are kind of,

22:21

you know, we get through jail mail,

22:23

you know, where they're actually mailing stuff

22:25

to us, or they're actually mailing stuff.

22:27

going through all of those and so

22:29

I'll kind of answer it two ways.

22:32

So for our screening process, you know,

22:34

the first thing we do is we

22:36

know the things that, for example, I

22:38

have absolutely not. So I won't do

22:40

a sexual assault case with a surviving

22:42

victim. I just won't. And it's sad

22:44

sometimes because sometimes like someone is truly

22:46

innocent, somebody truly has been wrongfully convicted

22:48

about it, but I just can't in

22:50

good conscience. take that chance to be

22:52

broad, like this isn't the platform for

22:54

that, to be broadcasting and relitigating in

22:56

public someone's trauma like that. So I

22:58

won't do it. So like those go.

23:01

So typically we only work murder cases.

23:03

And then we have this whole list

23:05

we go through, you know, we're their

23:07

jailhouse nages. I make every, if anybody's

23:09

ever filled out our contact form, I

23:11

make them list out for me the

23:13

strongest part of the prosecution's case. Like

23:15

I want to see why did they

23:17

get convicted. and see if anything there

23:19

seems shaky to me. And then, so

23:21

once we get past that process, we

23:23

kind of go through an initial screening

23:25

and we get like a little bucket

23:27

of cases from there. Then we'll start

23:30

going to look at whatever is available

23:32

online. I use newspapers.com a lot to

23:34

like go on and look at like

23:36

actual newspaper articles that were written about

23:38

it while the trial was happening to

23:40

see what was going on back then,

23:42

not what people are saying about it

23:44

later, you know, it's still media, you're

23:46

getting it more in real in real

23:48

time. I go to, you know, social

23:50

media pages for the cases if there's

23:52

a justice for filling the blank, you

23:54

know, I want to go see what

23:56

people are saying, what people are posting

23:59

about it, and then, you know, it

24:01

is kind of a broad... thing for

24:03

me and for a wrongful conviction, I'm

24:05

looking at, okay, what I want to

24:07

do is really hone in and examine

24:09

the state's case. Like, if I look

24:11

closer, you know, if they say, well,

24:13

they had this DNA, because people when

24:15

they send them in, there's always like,

24:17

well, there's always like, well, there was

24:19

DNA, but there's this, you know, here's

24:21

a million excuses, why, and blah, blah,

24:23

blah, blah, blah. Well, I want to

24:25

take all those elements of the state's

24:28

stronger or weaker. And if the case

24:30

starts crumbling, you know, for example, we

24:32

look at Jody's case, right, once we

24:34

get to the point where we started

24:36

getting documents, it's like, okay, what was

24:38

the linchpin of the state's case? It

24:40

was this Sonia Lucas. You know, Sonia

24:42

Lucas gave this testimony to the dying

24:44

declaration. So we start honing in declaration.

24:46

So we start honing in on that.

24:48

Okay, now I see, she first said

24:50

she didn't see anything. I was all

24:52

bullshit, right, right? So. there's that process

24:54

for, but that's for me when they're

24:57

being submitted to us. On the flip

24:59

side, if you're somebody who's just interested

25:01

in, you know, she said getting into

25:03

this line of work, I don't know

25:05

if that means, you know, making a

25:07

podcast about it or just researching cases

25:09

just to help or just for, you

25:11

know, knowledge, whatever it is, I got

25:13

to experience that with my students at

25:15

school, you know, when I told them,

25:17

you know, they needed to work on

25:19

something that was where they could make

25:21

an impact on impact on the world.

25:23

And so they kind of taught me

25:26

a little bit about that, how there

25:28

was 36 of them, and then when

25:30

they found the cases that they decided

25:32

to work, a lot of them they

25:34

went to, most states have like a

25:36

cold case database. And so that's a

25:38

good place to start. If you're looking

25:40

for a missing person's data, those databases

25:42

exist. There's obviously not a database for

25:44

wrongfully convicted people because the state doesn't

25:46

think they are wrongfully convicted. At least

25:48

they're saying they don't. But yeah, if

25:50

you start through some of those databases

25:52

and then start applying those same things,

25:55

you know, you look into, is there,

25:57

you know, for me, I do, you

25:59

know, kind of my focus over these

26:01

10 years and kind of the, under

26:03

the tutelage of Jim Clemente, you know,

26:05

I, I try. to really do a

26:07

lot of behavioral analysis. And I'll see

26:09

if something makes sense, is there a

26:11

possibility that the initial investigation, the reason

26:13

that's cold is because they were looking

26:15

in the wrong direction, maybe they didn't

26:17

think of it this way. And so

26:19

I'm always looking for, and the same

26:21

thing with my students when they brought

26:24

up, I'm like, okay, this is unsolved.

26:26

No one's been able to solve it

26:28

up till now. What makes you think

26:30

that you think that you can't? And

26:32

that's a real question. That's not a

26:34

real question. When you look at this,

26:36

why do you think that you can

26:38

solve it when they couldn't? Yeah. And

26:40

with all the cases, like my students

26:42

were working, they're like, well, I don't

26:44

want to give anything away, but it's

26:46

one's like, well, the police were always

26:48

looking for this, but I think when

26:50

I'm looking at the behaviors of the

26:53

crime scene, I think it would have

26:55

been this. So let's start real specific,

26:57

but I think your best place to

26:59

start if you're is to start looking

27:01

through some of those databases, some of

27:03

those databases, some of those databases, and

27:05

see. And then as a matter of

27:07

just, you know, digging in, you know,

27:09

trimming them down to a smaller group

27:11

of them and then really starting to

27:13

dig into them and see what you

27:15

got. Great. Obviously there's some overlap with

27:17

Jody's case and with the kinds of

27:19

things that CJ covers. Pam says, have

27:22

you thought about asking CJ if she'd

27:24

want to do an episode on Jody's

27:26

case? Might be helpful to get it

27:28

out to another audience. You never know

27:30

who might know something. That's a really

27:32

great idea and I don't know why

27:34

I didn't think about that when I

27:36

was talking to CJ. I saw that

27:38

comment, that was an idiot. Why didn't

27:40

I think about it? So yeah, so

27:42

I am going to reach out to

27:44

CJ and give her the information about

27:46

Jody's case and see if she'll feature

27:48

it because I think that obviously it's

27:51

a perfect fit and I keep stressing

27:53

this with me and I just I

27:55

really feel like that case is going

27:57

to have a happy ending this year.

27:59

I just feel it. So exciting. So

28:01

exciting. Yeah, when Jody when Jody when

28:03

Jody said that the the the C.I.U.

28:05

You went there to talk to them.

28:07

Yeah, I mean, that's a big deal.

28:09

Like this is something's happening. Yeah, something

28:11

is actually happening here. Yeah, for sure.

28:13

Well, and I Tony asked, you know,

28:15

is there an opportunity, will an opportunity

28:17

present itself for us to actually hear?

28:20

from Jody themselves again. Yeah, Jody's case

28:22

has been a weird one for me

28:24

because we didn't, we never, if you

28:26

notice, we never had a big season

28:28

finale episode, where normally I would have

28:30

like the convicted person on and then

28:32

some family members of it, but it's

28:34

because of the CIU's involvement, I, so

28:36

my first and foremost, my number one

28:38

priority is the justice has served. And

28:40

if we have the conviction integrity unit,

28:42

actively working on. the case and actively

28:44

trying to do something. I'm not sticking

28:46

my nose anywhere near it because I

28:49

don't want to take it. I don't

28:51

want I don't want Jody to come

28:53

on and do an interview with me

28:55

and I say something or they say

28:57

something that's going to jeopardize something or

28:59

cause political problems or I'm not saying

29:01

that they would but I'm just so

29:03

like I haven't talked to Jody. It's

29:05

the same thing with like Jesse Eldridge.

29:07

I haven't talked to Jesse and one.

29:09

There's a lot of stuff happening happening

29:11

in Jesse's happening in Jesse Eldridge. And

29:13

I feel like because my phone rings

29:15

so I can't ever tell because there's

29:18

because of the connection I don't know

29:20

who's calling me from prison always and

29:22

the voicemails don't tell you but like

29:24

I mean most time I'm at school

29:26

and I can't pick it up anyway

29:28

but like I don't want to answer

29:30

the call because I just I don't

29:32

like I feel like we're Jesse's case

29:34

too I feel like we're approaching the

29:36

finish line and I'm not about to

29:38

trip anybody right before we get there

29:40

like right before we get good Absolutely.

29:42

So with Jody's case, Jesse's case, yeah,

29:44

you'll be hearing from them, absolutely. But

29:47

right now, so there's conviction integrity units

29:49

working on both of those cases. And

29:51

so, like, so both of them, I'm

29:53

just, especially, like, Jody seems to be

29:55

moving very fast. And so I'm just

29:57

in the, in the C.I.U. when I

29:59

talked about. the people that I spoke

30:01

with at the conviction integrity unit in

30:03

Michigan at the AG's office was like

30:05

they were very open that She told

30:07

me, she's like, listen, I can't tell

30:09

you what to do. I'm not trying

30:11

to tell you what to do. But

30:13

you seem like what your number one

30:15

priority is that justice has served here.

30:18

So what I would ask you to

30:20

do is not be out interviewing, doing

30:22

stuff right now, because we have investigators

30:24

that are out there doing that right

30:26

now. We don't want, you know, because

30:28

there's those times where, you know, somebody

30:30

you catch somebody, that's been with me

30:32

when we've done it in real life.

30:34

you know, together, like, I like to

30:36

go knock on doors and not make

30:38

phone calls because you knock on a

30:40

door and someone you catch, you know,

30:42

they're not expecting it, they don't have

30:44

time to think about it, and they're

30:47

open to talking to you, because so

30:49

many times it's, it's after that conversation,

30:51

it's after that conversation, give so many

30:53

times, it's after that conversation, give me

30:55

your phone number, and I'll talk to

30:57

you later, because so many times, it's

30:59

after that's the one that knock on

31:01

the one that knocks on the one

31:03

that knocks on the That's why we

31:05

haven't been doing any of that stuff

31:07

with Jody's case, Jazzy's case and stuff,

31:09

is because things are happening. Yeah, and

31:11

like you said, it's very cool to

31:13

know that that visit, that work extended

31:16

all the way to Jody, and it's

31:18

a very different, you know, we've been

31:20

in positions where like we've wanted to

31:22

cover something and I have in my

31:24

own life as you know from the

31:26

the case that I always want that

31:28

if you talk to the police they're

31:30

like no we're we're actively working on

31:32

this so it would we'd appreciate it

31:34

if you wouldn't stir things up because

31:36

we're actively working on it that can

31:38

mean something very different when it's you

31:40

know a cold case that the police

31:42

are like no no no we're on

31:45

it please don't talk to anyone because

31:47

we're on it and you're like So

31:49

this is a very different version of

31:51

that where you're seeing it's a different

31:53

It's a different unit. It's a different

31:55

you know The purpose of them existing

31:57

is exactly this reason and it's very

31:59

exciting Yeah, because there is that other

32:01

piece of it because like we've seen

32:03

this with like the cold cases my

32:05

students are doing you know, there's You

32:07

know, so like some of these FOIA

32:09

requests that they're getting that nobody's had

32:11

before it's the the party line has

32:14

always been This is an active case.

32:16

It's an active case. We're not gonna.

32:18

We're not turning over any documents and

32:20

you know, they were able to through

32:22

through how they were approached and written

32:24

and pressure whatever it may be to

32:26

say okay. We'll give you a crack

32:28

at it. You know, which I think

32:30

is cool on the part of like

32:32

the Michigan State police, the files that

32:34

they've that they've turned over us like

32:36

They know these are students that are

32:38

coming in and asking for these files,

32:40

that they've never allowed anyone else to

32:43

have, and they're like, take a crack

32:45

at it. Let's do it. That's so

32:47

cool. I can't wait. Yeah. That's really,

32:49

really cool. Just changed the subject a

32:51

little bit. Grayson wants to know if

32:53

we checked out the recent undisclosed episode

32:55

that dropped, I think you and I

32:57

talked about a little bit in the

32:59

pre-show. You haven't had a chance to

33:01

listen to listen to it, but I

33:03

did, but I did. They gave a

33:05

bunch of updates. There are so many,

33:07

honestly, you just kind of need to

33:09

go and listen because they covered a

33:12

lot of ground and there have been

33:14

a lot, there's been a lot of

33:16

movement in a lot of cases that

33:18

they've touched in one way or another.

33:20

Some of it's great news, some of

33:22

it's we don't know news, some of

33:24

it's bad news, but it's what was

33:26

really good to hear their voices again,

33:28

of course they talked about Susan and

33:30

all the good work she's doing as

33:32

well, and I'm excited to have them

33:34

back in my ears. Yeah, me too.

33:36

And it sounds like from the chat,

33:38

seems like the consensus is that they're

33:41

planning on coming back probably around April,

33:43

and that they're going to be reexamining

33:45

more of Adnon's case from a different,

33:47

with a different approach when they come

33:49

back. The bombshell's coming is going to

33:51

be released. No, Ravi, you know, Ravi,

33:53

he's like, I just, I need to

33:55

talk about some of the stuff that

33:57

didn't make it into the documentary, like.

33:59

She's clearly got a lot of tea.

34:01

She wants this fill. So I'm here

34:03

for it. Oh, she's been on Colin

34:05

about that. I've been privy to private

34:07

conversation about that bombs over. She's like,

34:10

let's just, like, let's just put it

34:12

out there and, you know. And Colin

34:14

is always the calm and the storm,

34:16

like we need to wait. We need

34:18

to wait until all this stuff plays

34:20

out in court. So for sure. Yeah,

34:22

that's coming. And I'm definitely going to

34:24

reach out to Robbie and see if,

34:26

I don't know how, I'm sure they're

34:28

crazy busy right now prepping for it.

34:30

But while we're still in these next

34:32

six weeks or so of still doing

34:34

these off-case episodes to see if Robbie

34:36

and Colin want to come on to

34:39

talk about, maybe I can squeeze a

34:41

little bit of juice out. I'm all,

34:43

please, please try it. Speaking of Squeezing

34:45

Out Juice from people who are kind

34:47

of experts in specific cases, I know

34:49

that you invited people from Patreon to

34:51

be a part of your recent conversation

34:53

with Bob Mata, which I believe is

34:55

going to be this upcoming Sunday's episode,

34:57

but for those of us who were

34:59

savvy and so excited about it that

35:01

we already listened. we're chomping at the

35:03

bit for the next follow-up. So I

35:05

need everyone to catch up. I need

35:08

that episode to get out. And I

35:10

need us to get on that follow-up,

35:12

so we could talk about that as

35:14

well. I was genuinely mind. Well, I'm

35:16

sure you heard what you said because

35:18

it was alive. And by the way,

35:20

if you guys aren't patrons, besides you

35:22

get the extra pre-game episode for an

35:24

hour and the video stuff, you also

35:26

get to watch live and participate and

35:28

get early access to these, all these

35:30

interview episodes, all these interview episodes before

35:32

they come out. So you used to,

35:34

did you watch it or just let's

35:37

do it? No, I listened to it.

35:39

I was behind, I think I was

35:41

behind like 20 minutes, you know, I

35:43

couldn't get to it until you guys

35:45

have been going for 20 minutes. So

35:47

I started and went through from the

35:49

beginning because I didn't want to jump

35:51

in midway. So I was listening that

35:53

far behind the whole time. And yeah,

35:55

I mean, it's just, which, you know.

35:57

It's just a, it's a real puzzle.

35:59

It's going to be a really interesting

36:01

conversation and a lot of the stuff

36:03

I didn't, I didn't know, but yeah,

36:06

there's, this was definitely the time because

36:08

anybody's been listening to the few times

36:10

we've been talking about Delphi on here

36:12

where. You know, I've just been like,

36:14

I don't like this, I don't like

36:16

this, but I don't, I still don't

36:18

see, I've seen evidence that maybe Richard

36:20

Allen's, you know, not proven guilty properly,

36:22

but I haven't seen evidence that someone

36:24

else did this. This is the first

36:26

time in that conversation with the new

36:28

evidence revealed where I was like, oh,

36:30

like, I'm still not, you know, I'm

36:32

not saying I'm convinced, I can see

36:35

it, I can see a scenario of

36:37

my brain brain. Like that's part of

36:39

it too for me is that like,

36:41

can I see a scenario that doesn't

36:43

cause a bunch of wacky, you know,

36:45

bending over back, we're jumping through hoops

36:47

to come up with a scenario to

36:49

make it so that this person didn't

36:51

do it? Or can I find that

36:53

scenario? It's like, oh, you know what

36:55

logically makes sense is that this and

36:57

this happen? Yeah. And in that conversation

36:59

with Bob that you guys are going

37:01

to hear on Sunday, that I kind

37:04

of had that light ball moment where

37:06

I'm like, oh, I can see a

37:08

scenario now. So yeah, I'm excited to

37:10

talk about it because I think for

37:12

me, and again, this is just a

37:14

lot of non-spoilers, but a lot of

37:16

like implications, there were some things that,

37:18

you know, some of that happened for

37:20

me, but then some of it just

37:22

opened more questions as often happens with

37:24

stuff like this, where you're like, okay,

37:26

fine, like I see that, but now

37:28

I have these five questions that I

37:30

will have to have answered for the

37:33

thing I just heard, I just heard.

37:35

So I'm looking forward to that episode.

37:37

I'm going to listen to it again.

37:39

I'm absolutely going to listen to it

37:41

again before we do the follow-up, so

37:43

it's fresher my mind. I probably will,

37:45

too. Was that the end of our

37:47

questions? Mm-hmm. All right. So, yeah, tune

37:49

into that on Sunday. We've got about

37:51

an hour-long discussion with me and Bob.

37:53

You got about 10 minutes of Bob

37:55

and I talk in Delphi, and I

37:57

think it's pretty fascinating conversation. As tuned

37:59

to that on Sunday, we'll be right

38:02

back here next Tuesday night, filming or

38:04

recording live for the following. up on

38:06

that that will air for those who

38:08

can't make the live it'll air on

38:10

Friday as usual can we to talk

38:12

to you guys we'll see you next

38:14

week. Bye everybody. Bye guys. Music for

38:16

season 15 is created and composed by

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Caden lattice law. Follow-up episodes are co-hosted

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but as for now

40:16

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40:18

Bob signing off. I'm Bob Ruff.

40:20

I'm I'm Janet I'm Janet

40:22

this has been this

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