0:06

From NBI Studios

0:08

this is Truth in Justice, could just

0:10

is Truth in could judge it,

0:12

or however they judge

0:14

it. Studios, this

0:16

is Truth in Justice.

0:19

A crowd is Truth and

0:21

Justice, a crowdsourced investigation

0:23

in real time. I'm Bob Roth.

0:46

Hey, everybody, and welcome back to Truth

0:49

and Justice. Justice. I thank you been joining

0:51

us on this Sunday between the holidays, between Christmas

0:53

and New Year. New Year. I am am

0:55

joined today by one of those we've

0:57

been talking about over the last month

0:59

or so. Podcasters that are making

1:01

content to do actual the work in

1:03

the real life outside of the

1:05

media space gathering a I started gathering a

1:07

list together of people that I

1:09

wanted to talk to and share their

1:11

work with you guys of the people

1:13

on the top of my list was

1:15

Miss Nina instead host of the already gone

1:17

podcast. Welcome Welcome, Nina. you. Good morning, Bob,

1:19

and I hope you had a great Christmas. you had a

1:21

great I did. I'm recovering now. I

1:23

feel I've eaten too much. I

1:26

feel terrible I feel terrible. Yes. My family and

1:28

I we all went was is a

1:30

just a really sweet Christmas thing as

1:32

we all got together last night last

1:34

Christmas on And went to went to watch Nasparatu.

1:36

Oh, fun. Which a real a real -y movie.

1:38

E movie. And ate too much ate too much

1:40

popcorn and too many snacks, so

1:42

now I'm I'm recovering. Excellent. We had

1:45

We had Christmas with friends and again, they had

1:47

a had a lot of wonderful food

1:49

and drank some beautiful drinks and drinks and a

1:51

very very happy holiday, but it's time to

1:53

get a little cleaner and give my body

1:55

break. Right, exactly. All right, well, I want

1:57

right, well, I want to get into, thing thing I want to

1:59

do, do, Nina, is... know I've had you on before

2:01

when we were doing true crime binge,

2:03

but I wanted to share your work

2:06

with more of our full truth and

2:08

justice audience. So can you tell everybody

2:10

a little bit about the Already Gone

2:12

podcast, how long you've been doing it,

2:14

and what the mission of the podcast

2:16

is? So I started the Already Gone

2:18

podcast back in 2016, and to be

2:20

perfectly honest, I did not know what

2:22

I was getting into. I just wanted

2:24

to tell some cool stories and investigate

2:27

the... criminal history of the Detroit area

2:29

and Michigan and the Great Lakes region.

2:31

And what I ended up doing was

2:33

building relationships with community members, with family

2:35

members. I ended up working as a

2:37

missing persons advocate, and I used the

2:39

podcast to tell stories that need to

2:41

be told, and then also work with

2:43

families to make sure that they're getting

2:45

their loved ones story out there. be

2:47

it by a social media or by

2:50

podcast or connecting with news agencies for

2:52

missing persons and unsolved crimes? Great. And

2:54

so if you were much like me,

2:56

I started about the same time I

2:58

started in 2015, didn't really know what

3:00

I was doing, didn't know what, when

3:02

I started, I didn't know what, like,

3:04

the podcast was going to look like,

3:06

what the purpose of it, but then

3:08

it kind of revealed itself to me

3:10

as, you know, as time went on,

3:13

kind of similarly to what happened with

3:15

you. What did you do prior to

3:17

starting the starting the So I joke

3:19

that podcasting is my third career. My

3:21

first career, I was a admissions coordinator

3:23

for an inpatient psychiatric program. Okay. I

3:25

did that health and health care marketing

3:27

for about 10 years. And then I

3:29

did teaching. I worked in the schools

3:31

as a technology specialist for several years.

3:33

And then my daughter got sick. So

3:36

I needed to be home with her.

3:38

She's much better now. Everything's fine. It

3:40

had me at home for the first

3:42

time in decades and I was going

3:44

a little stir crazy and told my

3:46

husband I wanted to start a podcast.

3:48

and he came home with a microphone

3:50

for me so that I could start

3:52

my podcast. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. What

3:54

I love about the story is, and

3:57

I hope it encourages like our people

3:59

that are listening, is like you've become

4:01

like a massive presence in the space,

4:03

in the real life space of people,

4:05

you know, especially, we're both from Michigan,

4:07

as soon as you talk about any

4:09

missing persons or anything like that, everybody

4:11

knows who Nina instead is. And I

4:13

think it's really cool that. you went

4:15

from a career and a background that

4:17

had nothing to do with that. And

4:20

you just took the initiative to start

4:22

doing this work and then you just

4:24

like built into this position and similar

4:26

like I was a fireman and started

4:28

doing a podcast about and now I

4:30

have, it always amazes me when I

4:32

get an email from an innocence project

4:34

somewhere that wants me to work on

4:36

a case. Like I have no background.

4:38

I've just learned on the fly for

4:40

the last 10 years. How did you

4:43

all this stuff? Right. And leveraged relationships

4:45

to get information to get information. Yeah,

4:47

for sure. Which makes a difference. Yeah,

4:49

and I didn't realize that you came

4:51

from education too that you worked in

4:53

that background because for those who don't

4:55

know, I think I've mentioned this before,

4:57

but Nina has been a big help

4:59

to my investigative journalism students. It started

5:01

off with some people, some of my

5:03

students were working on some missing persons

5:06

cases that Nina had covered on her

5:08

podcast and they reached out and then

5:10

of course you had connections, immediately had

5:12

connections with more and more people. And

5:14

I believe were they setting up, I

5:16

believe they were going to set up

5:18

to do like an official interview with

5:20

you so that when they release their

5:22

podcast that your voice will be heard

5:24

on it. Have they set that up?

5:27

Not yet, but I imagine that'll happen

5:29

after the first of the year. Yeah,

5:31

they were all, they were writing scripts

5:33

for their first few episodes for the

5:35

last couple weeks leading up into the

5:37

Christmas break. But yeah, I know that

5:39

you were on the list of people

5:41

they wanted to hear from. And it's

5:43

been a cool community. It's been a

5:45

cool community. We talked to Mike Morford,

5:47

they talked to Jim Clemente, they talked

5:50

to Jenny Decker, you know, like all

5:52

these other creators in the space that

5:54

have come on to help them. like

5:56

what they're doing doing

5:58

and a little more

6:00

traction in the

6:02

cases they're covering. in the

6:04

cases you talk a little bit about

6:06

So can you talk a what is bit kind of the

6:08

format of already gone? kind could people expect

6:10

if they of to your Like What are you

6:13

trying to do with them? I'm trying

6:15

to get back into covering

6:17

What are you unsolved cases that

6:19

need attention. to get back And just last

6:21

week, I'm writing a book, which we'll

6:23

that back to. But last week, I

6:25

met with week, I'm public safety director about

6:27

the only unsolved murder in his

6:30

little town. his little I asked

6:32

if he had considered Charles

6:34

Shaw for the case. Shaw

6:36

was posthumously attached two murders in the

6:38

murders County area area along the

6:40

Grand River Corridor, and he'd never

6:43

he'd never heard the name. the type And

6:45

that's the type of work that

6:47

I really like doing is making those

6:49

connections, not just for listeners, but

6:51

for law enforcement also, also, because... You don't necessarily

6:54

know what's going on in another county

6:56

or in in another region, and it could

6:58

be relevant to your case. trying, making

7:00

those connections those connections is very

7:02

important to me, and looking for those connections

7:04

is something that I I really doing. Yeah,

7:07

and are you still releasing still releasing podcasts

7:09

every week. and the in the and

7:11

the in the 15th. Yes. Yeah, next next

7:13

month it'll be out on the because

7:15

I first the I off, so I do

7:17

the 10th and then... 1st just to give myself

7:19

to give myself a little break for the

7:21

holiday. for the holiday. Sure. Yeah, and and it's I've

7:23

I've seen with my students how a

7:25

lot of these cases become interconnected. I

7:27

think the I think the first Out For

7:29

You to reach out for you case that you all

7:31

are going to hear about about on my

7:34

my students coming up, and Nina has covered

7:36

it as well, as well, was the case of

7:38

person's case of And they reached out

7:40

to you and talked to you and you

7:42

made some connections for them. And also the for

7:44

case, the Stephen Craft case, group is working on. on.

7:46

You You helped us make some connections

7:48

there and and this think you've most of

7:50

them because I think I think the the

7:52

one that made the the with made from

7:54

the with Tanya from the the skeleton brothers. Yeah their mom. Yep

7:57

so they all all those connections for the a

7:59

group working on page case started, you know,

8:01

they're kind of getting frustrated running into

8:03

dead ends. I said, well, you know,

8:05

expand out, look at, based on some

8:07

of the advice you would give them,

8:09

look for other similar cases for everything

8:11

else in the area, because her case,

8:13

like, and you guys will be hearing

8:16

about it soon, but, you know, it

8:18

was an odd one, where she was

8:20

just seen on the side of the

8:22

highway, on the side of the highway,

8:24

and then just disappeared off the face

8:26

of the face of the earth after

8:28

the earth after that after that. It

8:31

was an insane case. Well, and they've

8:33

now found two other missing persons cases.

8:35

So like that group, each group is

8:37

doing their own series. Yes. That group

8:39

is doing the like missing from East

8:41

Lansing, you know, all different people. There's

8:43

a handful. Yeah, so they're covering that

8:45

one. Connie, I can't remember the last

8:48

name of the other individually found, but

8:50

very similar circumstances, but like close to

8:52

the same area and same thing, Carr

8:54

was found, she was disappeared. there were

8:56

some connections there and then you had

8:58

suggested the or mentioned the Chris Temple

9:00

case yes and my one student Gracie

9:02

like really took you had you had

9:05

you had talked a little bit about

9:07

that case how it was frustrating because

9:09

he didn't get his case didn't get

9:11

much press it didn't yeah so she

9:13

had come to me after talking to

9:15

you and they looked into her and

9:17

another student named Asia who looked into

9:20

it quite a bit and they're like

9:22

is our way that we can include

9:24

this because Nina was right nobody's ever

9:26

talked about this and this this young

9:28

boy went missing until they're including that

9:30

in the same group of them But

9:32

it's it's as soon as you start

9:34

pulling on those those threads you find

9:37

that there's more and more and more

9:39

connections to all of them Yes, and

9:41

I get I just got an email

9:43

yesterday about a case from 1975. They're

9:45

looking for other similar cases from that

9:47

time frame and I start pulling out

9:49

names and they're like yes, right area

9:51

right name right name right time frame

9:54

It's important to make those connections because

9:56

I think that Some people are in

9:58

prison for one murder when they've committed

10:00

multiple. And then I also think there's

10:02

people out there that have committed one

10:04

murder like the Amy Hooper case in

10:06

Ohio, and they just haven't been caught.

10:08

yet. Right. I want to talk a

10:11

little bit about your work outside of

10:13

the podcast. I didn't, I think I

10:15

knew about this, but I got a

10:17

better understanding when you were talking to

10:19

my kids about your work with the

10:21

missing in Michigan organization. Can you kind

10:23

of share what that organization is and

10:26

what you do with them? Sure, missing

10:28

in Michigan provides support to families and

10:30

law enforcement for missing persons cases. Sometimes

10:32

we are just doing something simple like

10:34

making a flyer. Other times we're putting

10:36

families in contact with resources. We assist

10:38

the Michigan State Police in training law

10:40

enforcement every May, which is something I'm

10:43

super proud of that work. We train

10:45

detectives from all over the state who

10:47

come in and learn how to better

10:49

investigate a missing person's case. Because if

10:51

you're a smaller department or you've never

10:53

worked a missing person's case, it's helpful

10:55

to learn from people who have investigated

10:57

dozens if not hundreds of them. and

11:00

being a part of that training is

11:02

really special to me. Yeah, that's, and

11:04

again, your background has nothing to do

11:06

with that. And that's what I think.

11:08

Anyone listening to this right now that

11:10

has an interest in just wants to

11:12

help and make a difference. You can,

11:14

like Nina is a perfect example of

11:17

like your training law enforcement officers, how

11:19

to investigate missing persons case from someone

11:21

who has not had any background on

11:23

that prior to starting the podcast. Michigan

11:25

State Police. does the training. I want

11:27

to be clear, I'm not doing the

11:29

training. Michigan State Police does the training.

11:32

We provide lunch for the attendees, which

11:34

is a nice incentive to get people

11:36

to come. I did in the last

11:38

year and a half complete a victim's

11:40

advocacy program because I wanted to be

11:42

better at what I'm doing. And I

11:44

did that program online. I'm now a

11:46

credential victims advocate and I learned. You

11:49

know, I feel like I know a

11:51

lot because I've been doing this for

11:53

five years, but I learned so much

11:55

from the victim's advocacy course, and I

11:57

felt like it made me a better

11:59

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14:55

her company is using AI to do

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work more efficiently. She wants to know

14:59

if you're aware of law enforcement working

15:01

on how they can use AI to

15:04

connect cases by locations. Like it seems

15:06

like a tool that maybe they should

15:08

be tapping into you're aware of them.

15:10

I'm not, but it sounds like something

15:13

that higher level law enforcement like maybe

15:15

the FBI might be looking into. You

15:17

know, it's crazy how like we watch

15:19

so much TV and and consume all

15:22

this content about all these cases and

15:24

it always feels like everything's so connected.

15:26

But then when they start, so one

15:28

of my groups is, is the group

15:31

that was working on the Skelton Brothers

15:33

case, and they still are, but that

15:35

one, I'm sure you're aware of the

15:37

other, John Skelton is less than a

15:40

year away now from getting out of

15:42

jail. We've actually been

15:44

communicating with him

15:46

through J pay with him

15:48

through J-Pay, and been been

15:51

talking to Tania, but

15:53

they're trying to

15:55

right now There's hearings

15:57

going on where

16:00

they're trying to get

16:02

the boys declared

16:04

dead. So they take

16:06

a charge on with

16:09

murder trying things are

16:11

kind of playing out there, they were looking

16:13

at some other cases they could cover him

16:15

with murder. So while case, the of name was there, they

16:17

were was the victim, are you familiar with

16:19

that? could cover. And there's a an

16:21

episode on Chelsea's case. was spoke

16:23

with Taylor the about Chelsea's case,

16:25

and one? have my own opinions

16:28

about Chelsea's case, case, but. Yeah, I'm

16:30

I am familiar. Oh, so we I, so we might,

16:32

a got a little bit of time. of I to pick

16:34

your want to pick your They brought it

16:36

to me so this brought it to me and

16:38

worked case a cash advance. the Chelsea

16:40

worked in a like a cash people come and type

16:42

place early where or take advances on their paychecks. And it

16:44

was the type of place where you had to like

16:46

hit a buzzer and they had to push the button

16:48

to let you in. and there somebody

16:50

of the buzzer, she let him in, and the

16:52

guy walked in, he had a suppressor on

16:54

his. Yes. to push the button to let in

16:57

in he was in and out I think under a minute. fired

16:59

a a shot at her, walked behind the counter, rummaged through

17:01

some stuff, fired a second shot at her. fired

17:04

a second shot at a cucumber cool put

17:06

his put back in his bag and

17:08

walked right out the door. walked right out

17:10

the case has never been solved. And

17:12

we been solved. And we Some people from the

17:14

Taylor Police, we talked to some people from Michigan

17:16

State to some it was... from What was

17:18

super interesting about it and it was, what In

17:20

that case, they about it was,

17:22

in that case, in on the fact that on

17:24

the fact that the gun jammed. after

17:27

he fired it and then he had to clear the gun

17:29

and he looked like he was looked like he was,

17:31

what he was doing, he efficiently and quickly

17:33

cleared the gun. and quickly, again. when we

17:35

talked to the rep from the Michigan

17:37

we talked to said rep from the You know, in

17:39

all of his years, he had actually, despite what you

17:41

see on TV, he has never seen. actually, despite

17:43

what you see on TV, has used in a crime

17:46

like that. or suppressor used in a crime

17:48

like never one and they've searched

17:50

the databases and all this stuff. databases

17:52

and they've searched the real familiar with

17:54

firearms this the reason. stuff. that the

17:56

gun jammed is because the suppressor

17:59

actually takes a some of the force

18:01

that ejects the shell so they tend

18:03

to jam if you don't have a

18:05

compensator in them. But we had just

18:07

had that conversation with him about, you

18:09

know, never seen anybody using a suppressor

18:11

and my kids have been searching all

18:13

over the place to try to find

18:15

other instances. And then just a couple

18:17

weeks ago that the man that killed

18:19

the United Health Care CEO, it was

18:22

identical. Calm as calm as can be

18:24

fires the shot gun jams he has

18:26

to clear the gun fires again He

18:28

had a suppressor on it. It was

18:30

like it was like lock and step

18:32

the same way So it was it

18:34

was and that was really I know

18:36

the kids are like going to be

18:38

integrating that into their thought process because

18:40

they were thinking well This must mean

18:42

former military and this must mean this

18:44

this must mean this and then what's

18:47

it? I'm like here's this guy that

18:49

is none of those things right and

18:51

behaved in the exact same manner when

18:53

he shot the CEO from United Health

18:55

Care. Same thing, silencer, gun jammed, clears

18:57

the gun, keeps going, and so it

18:59

like kind of throws, it goes back

19:01

to, you know, how you feel about

19:03

profiling and things like, it's like, the

19:05

profile would suggest law enforcement, militia, former

19:07

military, and then you look at like,

19:10

well, it wasn't there, you know, so

19:12

I know, it's super interesting, but then

19:14

they also found the connection to, but

19:16

someone else that already found as well,

19:18

there was. some suppressors stolen from a

19:20

sporting goods store not far from there

19:22

I think it was in Jackson the

19:24

yes yeah and they had him on

19:26

video yep and they talked to the

19:28

it looks strikingly similar but we actually

19:30

had the the intern that was working

19:32

for the state police that made that

19:35

connection he he skipped in with the

19:37

kids and talked to them about all

19:39

of that yeah but I'm just curious

19:41

what it was so what are your

19:43

thoughts about it so what are your

19:45

thoughts about it so In the Detroit

19:47

area, I don't know if it's the

19:49

same way on the west side of

19:51

Michigan, but we have a lot of

19:53

party stores. And if you're not from

19:55

Michigan, you may not know. that a

19:57

party store is like a 7-Eleven, but

20:00

they've got, you know, your booze, your

20:02

cigarettes, your snacks, maybe some sandwiches, maybe

20:04

some convenience items, but there's party stores

20:06

everywhere. They're on every corner. What's funny

20:08

about that is in our current case

20:10

from Benton Harbor. Yeah. We were using

20:12

the phrase, it's in the police reports,

20:14

I was using the phrase party store.

20:16

and my audience from all over the

20:18

world was like, what is a party

20:20

store? Like, they were thinking like party

20:23

city, something like that, and like, oh,

20:25

that's, I don't know what you call

20:27

them other places, but that's what we

20:29

call them here. Yeah, it's like a

20:31

convenience store, but a vice store, you

20:33

know, with your smokes and your alcohol

20:35

and your vaping supplies, but they're ubiquitous

20:37

in the Detroit area. And my father,

20:39

when I did the episode, he listened

20:41

to it, he listened to it, and

20:43

he listened to it, and he listened

20:45

to it, and he said, and he

20:48

said, you know, you know, you know,

20:50

you know, And I can see a

20:52

local party store owner being very upset

20:54

than an advanced America store came in

20:56

to take away their business. Oh, that's

20:58

interesting. Yeah, and sent someone to make

21:00

sure that the advanced America store got

21:02

shut down. Now, just a theory, I

21:04

thought it was interesting to entertain. I'm

21:06

not sure that's what happened, but it

21:08

made me sort of do a double

21:10

take because I hadn't thought about it

21:13

that way. Well, in terms of honing

21:15

in on my business. That's, yeah, because

21:17

that's the baffling part about, because you

21:19

know, they did an in-depth victimology report

21:21

and there's nothing to indicate that there

21:23

was anybody that had an issue with

21:25

Chelsea. Right. She was a lovely person.

21:27

Yeah. And then it was like, so

21:29

what's the motive? Because they also didn't

21:31

steal, I think they stole maybe a

21:33

couple hundred bucks, whatever they could, like

21:36

there was hardly any money. They did

21:38

we have no like where's the motive

21:40

in the whole thing like never made

21:42

never track never made any sense So

21:44

that's an interesting interesting thought and then

21:46

one of the things that the kids

21:48

are so first I had them look

21:50

for other cash advance type murders in

21:52

places and where to that are crimes

21:54

and theft and robberies in them

21:56

and good lord there's so so

21:58

many of them

22:01

they're just just and

22:03

dozens and dozens of

22:05

them dozens and then they were working

22:07

on a theory that were working on a You know, it

22:09

was somebody that was just passing through. The reason they

22:11

weren't concerned is, you know, they the in their vehicle. It's

22:13

right on I is the other they took off. got in their after

22:15

the break, their next step is gonna

22:17

be looking at, after the of looking around Michigan,

22:19

looking all down the I at instead of looking around

22:21

the way over by Chicago the I-94 Detroit, you

22:24

and then... way over by Chicago to I -80 and

22:26

there to see where those connections

22:28

are at. are at. Yeah, I also, I don't I

22:30

don't think Chelsea was the target. I

22:32

think she was either happening to be

22:34

there or they were expecting someone else

22:36

to be there. there was something

22:39

there she had where she had changed a shift or

22:41

something like that, too. too. Yeah. Just one of the, this

22:43

is nothing when nothing what I plan to

22:45

talk about, but I'm just I'm the work

22:47

my kids are doing have me so

22:49

me like and I'm just dying to get

22:51

their to get their out. out. Are you you familiar?

22:53

I I don't remember if we talked to

22:55

you about this one, but the one, but the

22:57

from Roberson case from Reed City. So that that that

22:59

one is really so case has me case

23:01

has me fascinated. it was I not as it was

23:03

a group of students working on of a group of students

23:06

working on that one and that they would

23:08

all just shit out and so that I

23:10

could take that and cover that case I've been up

23:12

there been up there twice. up I've been

23:14

to the store been to I have a cabin up

23:16

in that area. a cabin up in that area we

23:18

worked with Jenny they on that one. Jenny's amazing

23:20

and knows that case amazing and knows that case

23:23

you know, out yeah along like the

23:25

case files know she passed had. like the No

23:27

one's ever in only FOIA request case

23:29

ever been given was completely redacted.

23:31

You couldn't see anything on

23:33

it. see One of my students, my

23:35

is a sophomore, is a sophomore, is a 15 -old

23:37

kid. kid, filed multiple multiple and was

23:39

and was changing language and trying

23:41

to get things right. right. And she, right

23:43

before the right before the break, just got

23:45

file from the Michigan case file from the Michigan

23:48

but It's redacted, but like a normal

23:50

redaction. know, Most of it's of it's there. It's

23:52

just some names and stuff are redacted

23:54

out of it. it. But yeah, we all all

23:56

of a sudden got this massive packet no

23:58

one's ever seen before. So So there's... Yeah, so

24:00

now we're all in, we're actually going

24:02

up there with a field trip with

24:04

that group on January 18th, because they

24:06

do like a walk to remember for

24:08

Jeanette. Yes. And so we got approved

24:10

to, like they went through, and they,

24:12

they, like, pitched it to the, like,

24:15

pitched it to the, like, pitched it

24:17

to the, like, pitched it to the,

24:19

like, pitched it to the, and they,

24:21

like, they, they can go up, they

24:23

want to, you know, be a part

24:25

of honoring the victim. and they want

24:27

to be just a part of the

24:29

group and then also there's going to

24:31

be a bunch of people there that

24:33

they can interview in person for the

24:35

podcast and so they got approved so

24:37

January 18th we're going going up there

24:39

to the so any of you that

24:41

are from the Michigan area read city

24:44

January 18th you can come to the

24:46

Jeanette Robertson walk to remember. I love

24:48

that you're doing that and I love

24:50

that you're facilitating this for the students.

24:52

I think it's, I mean, I'm just

24:54

so touched that you're all are going

24:56

up for the memorial walk, but I

24:58

just think it's amazing. So kudos. Yeah,

25:00

I'm loving it. But I did not

25:02

expect the jealousy to sink in that

25:04

I have when they found, because I

25:06

didn't give them cases. Right. I was

25:08

like, you guys, and as a matter

25:10

of fact, I didn't, my assignment wasn't

25:12

defined a true crime case to find

25:15

a true crime case to work, a

25:17

true crime case to work on. for

25:19

a year-long project, you didn't group, in

25:21

groups, find a real-life situation outside the

25:23

walls of the school where your work

25:25

and your reporting on it can make

25:27

a real-life difference in the real world.

25:29

They all ended up, probably because they're,

25:31

you know, I'm their teacher, so they

25:33

all ended up doing like true crime

25:35

cases, but some of the cases, like

25:37

that one is just absolutely fascinating to

25:39

me. And it should be solvable. So

25:41

nutshell version of her case. She was

25:43

working at a hardware store in the

25:46

lower level by herself in the pet

25:48

department and someone came into the store,

25:50

sight unseen, beat her to death, left

25:52

the store sight unseen, and the workers

25:54

upstairs had no idea. And customers. And

25:56

customers. And customers open. Yeah. It was

25:58

in the middle of the day. So

26:00

it's an absolutely bizarre, crazy, disturbing case.

26:02

She was a beautiful girl. She was

26:04

a mother. Just. baffling that this could

26:06

happen. If you made a movie about

26:08

this, you'd be like, oh, that's not

26:10

realistic. Yeah. But it 100% happened and

26:12

she's still waiting for justice and her

26:14

family is still waiting for justice. Yeah.

26:17

And that's one like, I'm confident it

26:19

can be solved. One, that's the same

26:21

student or her name Chelsea that filed

26:23

the FOIA request and is kind of

26:25

the lead on that. Again, this is

26:27

sophomore in high school. Yeah. That is

26:29

the lead in that group. Like, like,

26:31

theories in a profile. On my own,

26:33

I'm obsessed with the case. I'm reading

26:35

it on my own and letting them

26:37

do it. And like, I thought, oh,

26:39

I think they were looking in the

26:41

wrong direction. I think it could be

26:43

this. This is what I'm seeing from

26:45

the profile and stuff. And I had

26:48

Jim Clemente came in and like taught

26:50

them about victimology and things like that.

26:52

And then, Chelsea, came to me and

26:54

she's like, Mr. Ruff, I think it

26:56

was, and I'm not gonna give it,

26:58

I'm not gonna give it, I'm excited

27:00

about that one. Yeah, Jenny Decker literally

27:02

wrote the book on that case. So

27:04

if you're interested, I think the book

27:06

is called Redacted. Yeah, and she's been

27:08

a huge help for us too. And

27:10

she's somebody else that I want to

27:12

bring on to talk. I don't know.

27:14

I don't know if she's still doing

27:16

her podcast down in a way. Yeah,

27:19

she's still doing it. Yeah. But she

27:21

sent the interview notes from all the

27:23

interviews she did on the case years

27:25

ago. So they have like the list

27:27

of the list of everything of everything

27:29

that everyone told of everything that everyone

27:31

told her that everyone told her and

27:33

all over and all over interviews. There's

27:35

like some long form YouTube videos that

27:37

Jenny's put together on the case. Like

27:39

it's it's super duper interesting. She's really

27:41

good. I just want to give her

27:43

a shout out for being generous with

27:45

her sources because she's given me information

27:47

on cases, but she didn't have to.

27:50

I asked her about a case and

27:52

she's like, here, here's the entire file,

27:54

which is lovely and I'd love to

27:56

see more of that in the true

27:58

crime space. Yeah, and that's and that's

28:00

why, you know, I have you on

28:02

here and Jenny, because everyone that I

28:04

have, as you know, like I have

28:06

my students, make the, make the contact,

28:08

you make the contact, you know, you

28:10

know, I tell them. If you're interested

28:12

in this case, find out if there's

28:14

any other media on it, let's figure

28:16

out who the people are that have

28:18

done media and why don't you reach

28:21

out to, and you know, they're like,

28:23

well, just need an instant from already

28:25

gone. So I helped them by giving

28:27

them your content, but I'm like, you

28:29

need to reach out to her and

28:31

you talk to her and you set

28:33

up a time to meet with her

28:35

and then see, and then everybody that

28:37

we've, that we've talked to. We have

28:39

one of the other local cases we're

28:41

doing, the son of one of the

28:43

victims has his own podcast and he

28:45

shared a bunch of case material with

28:47

us, Jenny has, Mike has, like everybody

28:49

that's been involved. And that's the kind

28:52

of the community I, and the reason

28:54

like this season that I'm doing between

28:56

our cases that I'm doing this is

28:58

because I think that all of us

29:00

that are out there trying to actually

29:02

make a difference in the world to

29:04

be working together and promoting and supporting

29:06

and supporting each other. Because there's, I

29:08

just put out a bonus episode this

29:10

weekend, just kind of refreshing one of

29:12

the cases that we've worked on a

29:14

few years ago. Just talk about like

29:16

how, like, how few and far between

29:18

the winds are when you're doing this

29:20

kind of work, that it's a lot

29:23

of, a lot of heartbreak and a

29:25

lot of dead ends. So we need

29:27

to be lifting up each other all

29:29

the time and trying to really promote

29:31

to keep the work going. Yes. I'm

29:33

sure you feel the same as I

29:35

ever once while you feel the same.

29:37

Fucking doing this like I'm done so

29:39

tired. I'm so tired of getting beat

29:41

all the time. Yeah, it can be

29:43

exhausting work and that's one of the

29:45

things I like about doing them as

29:47

saying person's work is we people.

29:49

We don't always

29:52

find people. Sometimes it's

29:54

not the answer

29:56

we hoped for, but

29:58

the people that

30:00

we can find, the

30:02

families that we

30:04

can help, makes it

30:06

all worth it. families

30:08

that we can is such, I didn't realize,

30:10

all know, I did, we and that is such, I

30:12

about a year or so ago. you know, I where I

30:15

was going to do a season on a

30:17

year or so ago, where I was and a lot of

30:19

it do a I needed a breather, needed

30:21

it, you know, I needed a And a lot the

30:23

was conviction stuff. I'm just exhausted by it.

30:25

And I thought, I This is what I'll

30:27

do. I can tell these stories all the time and I found

30:29

it. stuff, So, like, it was emotionally was emotionally

30:31

draining for me. I can't, you

30:33

know, I get that way I get

30:35

really attached to and get emotionally

30:37

connected with the cases I'm doing, and I'm

30:39

they're long one And I'm working out

30:41

and I'm focused in one place

30:43

for six months to a year. a different

30:46

missing when I was doing a

30:48

different week, like I case I was week. sad all the time and

30:50

I was just. like in sad that the time

30:52

and it was like in every case that we worked

30:54

where somebody was found. thing we're going to do whole

30:56

thing going to do right now, active

30:58

cases. cases. And it was was like another, like like

31:00

found dad, found dead and they're like, I don't

31:02

have it in me. I don't have it in

31:04

me to do it. It was in me to do it

31:06

it was the show, like Janet all of us like

31:08

all too much of. all too much of softies to

31:10

handle that we were just crying

31:13

all the time time on the it's I really

31:15

really that are and I people that are,

31:17

and I know it's sad for you and

31:19

everybody else but but somebody's got to do and I'm not

31:21

the guy to do it. it Right. right right I

31:23

totally get that. I I I met with,

31:25

on Saturday right before the holiday, I met

31:27

with the brother of a the -year -old

31:29

girl of went missing in 1981. girl who went

31:32

He cried, I cried, it was

31:34

very emotional. was very emotional,

31:36

but he was so grateful that

31:38

someone cares about his sister. about his

31:40

sister. He was so grateful

31:42

because it's been 43 years, almost

31:44

44 years. and and she's

31:46

still missing. And her case has always been

31:48

of interest to me because she vanished, and

31:50

there's very little out there about her

31:53

case, which I don't understand. which I She was

31:55

a child. She was a child. So I was was

31:57

very grateful that he gave me the time to

31:59

speak with him. and very grateful for

32:01

the time we spent together, but then

32:03

I came home and I was just

32:05

like, oof, I needed to have a

32:07

little drink and just chill on the

32:09

sofa. Yeah, I had a bourbon and

32:12

I said on the sofa and was

32:14

just like, I'm just gonna vibe for

32:16

a couple hours. Yeah, it's, it's, you

32:18

know, my, my format was going to

32:20

be that I would have, I would

32:22

do cases where I could get a

32:25

family member of the missing person to

32:27

come on to share their story. And

32:29

it was, you know, and it was,

32:31

it was, it was effective, it was,

32:33

you'll give them a chance to talk,

32:35

give them an opportunity to share the

32:38

story, get more eyes and ears on

32:40

the cases, but it was just like,

32:42

I can't do it. I cannot do

32:44

it over and over and over again.

32:46

Like my mental health was just declining

32:48

rapidly when I was doing it. And

32:51

also you found out too that, you

32:53

know, there's so many, you know, when

32:55

I first started doing it, doing it.

32:57

I started doing it. I started doing

32:59

it. and it was like hundreds and

33:01

hundreds a day and there was all

33:04

these and then when you get into

33:06

them lots and lots and lots of

33:08

them are you know teenagers that ran

33:10

off with their boyfriends or you know

33:12

custody disputes yeah foster kids things like

33:14

that there weren't you know it was

33:17

like trying to find the ones that

33:19

were some of those truly missing were

33:21

truly nobody knew where where they were

33:23

in those cases tend to move fast

33:25

and they tend to end so many

33:27

times with with with tragic results yeah

33:30

Well, and I want to speak up

33:32

for my foster kids and my kids

33:34

that ran off with their boyfriends and

33:36

my runaway kids, their kids, and they

33:38

need to be found safe. So I

33:40

see people, and I'm not saying you're

33:43

doing this, but I see people sort

33:45

of turn their nose up. Well, they

33:47

ran away. And it's like, how many

33:49

15-year-olds do you know that are making

33:51

good choices? Right. If they've run away,

33:53

they're not making a great choice, they're

33:56

not making a great choice. They need

33:58

to be safe. So let's do our

34:00

part to make sure they make it

34:02

home in one piece. Yeah, and you

34:04

know, not what you just said, but

34:06

this conversation just reminded me of something

34:09

I want to circle back on. One

34:11

of the cases we covered was out

34:13

on the East Coast. It was in

34:15

Maine. But guy had gone, it was

34:17

a young man, early 20s had gone

34:19

missing, and I was kind of like,

34:22

I actually contacted law enforcement about that

34:24

one because I had some theories, and

34:26

I was like really invested in it.

34:28

And they ended up finding him dead,

34:30

and they arrested the person, and they

34:32

ended up finding him dead, and they

34:35

arrested the person that I thought that

34:37

likely had murdered him. And I just

34:39

occurred to me why we're talking about

34:41

this, that I don't know what ever

34:43

happened. I do want to talk about

34:45

before we wrap things up, one of

34:48

you, we talked about one of your

34:50

cases, I said you just posted the

34:52

other day about Danny's case, do you

34:54

want to share and talk a little

34:56

bit about that one, so we at

34:58

least get one of the cases out

35:01

there to my audience? Sure, so Daniel

35:03

Stizlicki went missing on December 2nd, 2016.

35:05

Danny's case was of great interest to

35:07

me because she lived just off Grand

35:09

River Avenue in Farmington Hills in Farmington

35:11

Hills, about a mile from where I

35:13

was living where I was living at

35:16

the time. So when I saw that

35:18

I was very curious and I actually

35:20

drove up and parked my car near

35:22

her apartment and walked around looking for

35:24

her. Oh wow. Yeah, and later it

35:26

came out that she had she worked

35:29

at a building in Southfield which happened

35:31

to be the same building my husband

35:33

worked in and she was seen leaving

35:35

that building with a former security guard.

35:37

He had had some car trouble and

35:39

it appears that she offered him a

35:42

ride to his home in Berkeley. And

35:44

I don't believe that Danny left his

35:46

home under her own accord. I don't

35:48

think anything good happened in his home

35:50

in Berkeley. Danny has never been seen

35:52

or heard from again. The case is

35:55

being handled by the Farmington Hills Police.

35:57

Floyd Galloway, that security guard that she

35:59

was last seen with who lived in

36:01

Berkeley, is in prison serving a seven

36:03

to 15 year sentence for physically attacking.

36:05

and sexually assaulting a woman in Heinz

36:08

Park in Wayne County the September before

36:10

Danny went missing. And her case is

36:12

currently hung up in legal. limbo because

36:14

of some information that was shared that

36:16

may have been fruit of a poison

36:18

tree where privilege was violated, which is

36:21

extremely frustrating. Danny's family is active with

36:23

missing in Michigan. We're very grateful for

36:25

the Stizlickies and what they have done

36:27

to help other families, but we would

36:29

really like to see Danny's case finally

36:31

come to trial, hopefully, in 2025. Yeah,

36:34

is there anything that our listeners can

36:36

do to help with the case or

36:38

get more information on the case? I

36:40

know you've done at least one episode

36:42

on her case. Yeah, I did an

36:44

episode where I worked with the assistant

36:47

chief of police in Farmington Hills to

36:49

put that episode together with the blessing

36:51

of her family. Unfortunately, the evidence that's

36:53

in question has to make its way

36:55

through the courts to see whether or

36:57

not it will be admissible. I can

37:00

tell you that her case was in

37:02

Oakland County. but the Oakland County prosecutor

37:04

declined to pick it up because it's

37:06

a nobody murder case and those we

37:08

know are notoriously difficult to prosecute. Right.

37:10

But Dana Nessel's office did pick it

37:13

up and wants to prosecute it. We're

37:15

just waiting for the very slow wheels

37:17

of justice to move. Was this a

37:19

situation where like a lawyer shared information

37:21

or something and he said that the

37:23

privilege was violated? My understanding is the

37:26

person who is administering the polygraph Floyd

37:28

graft Floyd Galloway. heard some very distressing

37:30

information. He then called his friend, who

37:32

was the chief of police in Troy,

37:34

and shared that information violating privilege. Again,

37:36

this is my understanding. I could be

37:39

slightly off. And the chief of police

37:41

in Troy called the chief of police

37:43

in Farmington Hills. Okay. And gave him

37:45

that information. So the breach of privilege

37:47

caused some of the evidence to be

37:49

called into question. So they have this

37:52

information, but they're... possibly not going to

37:54

be allowed to use it. Correct. And

37:56

I can tell you that Floyd Galloway's

37:58

home in Berkeley was missing a... comforter

38:00

from a set. set? was a There

38:02

was a chunk of had been that had

38:04

been cut out with a razor. his

38:07

home. So from his home. was very home

38:09

was very suspicious. seen buying a

38:12

He was seen buying a

38:14

Galloway's next day. believe has since

38:16

wife, who I believe has since passed

38:18

away, was receiving cancer treatments was in

38:20

and was in hospital the day that

38:22

Danny disappeared. So he he had

38:24

the host to himself. himself. Well, Well, hopefully

38:26

we get a resolution on that case. the

38:28

last thing that I want to do before I

38:30

let you go is. go is, with missing in

38:33

in Michigan and all the work

38:35

that that that is doing. is there Is

38:37

there anything that our listeners can

38:39

do to the support the organization?

38:41

Is there donations volunteering? How can anybody

38:43

do anything to help out with

38:45

out and Michigan? The main thing that we

38:47

ask people to do is if someone

38:49

goes missing in your area and you see

38:51

a legitimate missing persons post where there

38:53

is law enforcement contact information, if that's in

38:55

your area, please share it. area, please

38:57

share it. the signal on that missing

39:00

person. That's the number one thing. It's

39:02

all about visibility. It's all about with these

39:04

missing these missing persons cases and people don't know

39:06

that their neighbor is missing or

39:08

their cousin is missing is they see

39:10

it online. it So getting the word

39:12

out. word out. and making sure that there

39:14

is appropriate law enforcement contact. contact

39:17

for safety of the family is

39:19

also very important. very important. Yeah, and a

39:21

a good example of that was

39:23

when we were doing our our case.

39:25

case, There was a case a I had seen seen

39:27

was out of. I believe it was Arizona. it was

39:30

kid's name was Jared Brooks. Jared And

39:32

he was one of those, as you

39:34

mentioned those, as you mentioned that ran off. off.

39:36

I I was real hesitant to share the case the

39:38

case looked like he had taken a firearm from

39:40

the house when he left, the I he left and I want

39:42

to like, people to go looking for this person to

39:44

go has a gun, we don't know what's going

39:46

on. has a gun, And there was a lot

39:48

of that sentiment online. a It seemed like I

39:50

had to talk to his mother a few times

39:52

to his mother a few to help where we could. help where

39:54

we people were looking at it as

39:56

just another it was just another ran off somewhere, somewhere,

39:58

to be fine. be fine. nobody was interested

40:00

in sharing or covering the case. And

40:03

now it's been a year and a

40:05

half and he is still missing and

40:07

considered in danger. Yeah. And you think

40:09

like if people had taken that seriously

40:11

and shared it like you're talking about

40:14

that seriously and shared it like you're

40:16

talking about that perhaps Jared could have

40:18

been found right away as opposed to

40:20

now people are finally getting on board

40:22

down in Arizona and sharing it. But

40:25

he's already been gone for a year

40:27

and a year and a half now.

40:29

And we really need to take them

40:31

seriously and protect these kids. Right. And

40:33

with that, I'm gonna go ahead and

40:36

let you go, Nina. I have got

40:38

more cleaning up to do after some

40:40

boxes and wrapping paper all over my

40:42

house. But thanks so much for joining

40:44

us. We really appreciate you and the

40:47

work that you're doing and wish you

40:49

nothing but luck. And everybody check out

40:51

on the first and the 15th. Y'all

40:53

already gone podcast with me and the

40:55

instant. Thanks Bob. Truth

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43:00

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43:03

I'm Bob Ruff. Bob I'm I'm Zach

43:05

And I'm Janet Janet And

43:07

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