0:01

Some people just know there's a better way to do

0:03

things, like bundling your home

0:05

and auto insurance with Allstate. Or

0:08

going to the grocery store for milk instead of buying

0:10

your own cow. You

0:13

know there's an easier and better way. Save

0:16

up to 25% when you bundle

0:18

home and auto with Allstate. Bundled

0:21

savings vary by state and are not available in every state. Saving

0:23

up to 25% is the countrywide average of the

0:25

maximum available savings off the home policy. Allstate Vehicle

0:27

and Property Insurance Company and affiliates north of Illinois.

1:02

Hello

1:12

everybody and welcome back to Truth In

1:14

Justice. This week I

1:16

am joined by the lovely

1:19

and amazing Janet Varney, who

1:21

is here with me to talk

1:23

to Susan Simpson of The Proof Podcast.

1:25

Susan, how are you? Good.

1:27

Hey guys. Good to see you all again. It's been a

1:29

minute. This is very exciting.

1:31

I last told you what city we were in.

1:34

We were in Tennessee. Yeah.

1:37

Yeah, we were. And

1:39

yeah, I had you on

1:41

my podcast. I had you on the JV Club Live,

1:43

which is always a different experience than just doing it

1:45

in front of a computer. I remember

1:48

I was very nervous because I was

1:50

such a fan. And Then

1:52

only after you had done the podcast were

1:54

you like, wait, I like something you do.

1:56

I Just didn't realize it until now. But.

2:01

Yeah, it was. it was. It was

2:03

so great to be with you in

2:05

person and people are look like every

2:07

one that listens to our podcast that

2:09

I know listens to prove people are

2:11

just losing their minds over both the

2:13

seasons that you've done this latest season

2:15

obviously Disruptor last episode. At. Your

2:17

last up. So for now we're now and. I

2:19

mean, there is it so well

2:21

put together the dynamic between you

2:23

and Cinder and then Kevin when

2:25

he's there. Is. Fantastic and

2:27

I'm just I've I've loved it.

2:30

It's been so compelling. Willing.

2:32

To have some really hopeful as one. With.

2:35

Update: sooner than later. Yeah

2:37

yeah. Yeah. I was a crazy isolated

2:39

seat and skip to the end. Ah,

2:41

As as try to catch up with and yeah,

2:43

you'd left. That leaves on a pretty big cliffhanger

2:45

Rebates: Found a bunch of stuff with gives encourages

2:48

me a lot for the case that I'm getting

2:50

ready to start right now. I'm.

2:52

Bullets. Let's start with go Godiva. I would

2:54

talk to students and you started proof Since since

2:57

undisclosed ended and you started proof. So.

2:59

So how did this come about? How did you into send a

3:01

hookup? How did you come up with as idea for proof. Then

3:04

i met actually because when the thing the same case.

3:06

Her for her or tv show they do I.

3:09

Live. Shows on Scrubber Id is was

3:11

for killer in question and the Cupboard the

3:13

jump height of case which. Ah

3:15

they told me about was are talking like

3:17

lane what scriptures from Thirtieth With that same

3:19

time. And it worked really well. End

3:21

up having it. Adds and it

3:23

sucks advantage of how the Tv

3:25

and. I can sing world. Wars.

3:28

Galaxy far the best of both worlds that what

3:31

this is on board gets to prevent foul. The

3:34

for audiences and somehow well that works in

3:36

it up. To talking. About Lexus when

3:38

you about including when I had been looking out

3:40

for Ever and Georgia. Arm and

3:42

that dubbing season Waterproof. And. Like

3:44

Work and ah story on M own. Path.

3:48

So and so fast I never outlet us.

3:50

Yeah, super quick turnaround. People are going to

3:52

like see that like oh, that's how it

3:54

goes right now. I'll never happen that way

3:56

ever again. And it seems insane like I

3:58

haven't had a chance to. Like my audience

4:00

was like, I never have time to listen to any true

4:02

crime. I'm always like trying to find little things here and

4:04

there. And I'm like, Oh, so I kind of had like

4:06

bookmark like Susan's starting to show. I want to listen to

4:08

proof. And before I got a chance to listen, you already

4:10

had him out of prison. Yeah.

4:15

New listeners are going to be like, every other season be like,

4:17

so why is it taking so long? Like it's only been two

4:19

years. There's nothing in this world. Yeah. That's

4:22

why I jumped to the last episode of this season.

4:24

I'm like, clearly she's getting him out. It's been three

4:26

months. Yeah. So

4:29

for the first season, um, you just talked

4:31

about it a little bit, but that was

4:33

a situation in which, um, not

4:36

to give too terribly much away, but this

4:39

is a situation in which it seemed as

4:41

though perhaps there had

4:43

been an accident or some sort

4:45

of situation in which a person took

4:47

their own life. Um, and

4:49

yet it turned into a, it's

4:52

more than that. There's more happening here.

4:54

It's, you know, murder. Um,

4:58

and somehow you just walked

5:00

right through all of that. Got the

5:02

two guys who were accused out of

5:04

prison. And, but you had cooperation, uh,

5:06

a little bit of cooperation from the

5:08

victim as it were

5:11

family, a little bit. Yeah. And then

5:13

that kind of happened again. Yeah. And

5:15

then that kind of happened again in Manteca

5:18

with season two. Can you tell us a

5:20

little bit about, um, the framework for anybody

5:22

who is, hasn't dipped into

5:24

season two yet of proof? Yeah. Season

5:27

two is in Manteca, California, central Valley,

5:29

like an hour and change outside of,

5:31

I mean, it's in the Bay area. Um,

5:34

it was another 2000 case. I feel like almost all my

5:37

cases end up either being cases that happened in

5:39

99, 2000 or the trials were held then. And

5:42

the 18 year old girl was

5:44

found strangled, left dead in a

5:46

construction site, actually for a new home people being built.

5:49

And she had the boyfriend that had

5:51

a very tumultuous relationship with her. Um,

5:53

he was obviously for a suspect. They

5:55

focus on him, try to

5:57

get him. Can't quite get a case to get.

6:00

together until eventually

6:02

they will try and get

6:04

the obvious answer, come up with the least obvious answer in

6:06

history of the world and decide that this was a mass

6:08

gang rape party, that she was

6:10

lured to this party to celebrate her

6:13

pregnancy. And while they are

6:15

five, six, seven guys, rape and strangle her

6:17

in front of 20 to 40 other teenagers.

6:20

Including several of her closest friends. Including

6:22

several of her closest friends. And according

6:25

to the prosecution, only one of these teenagers

6:27

ever comes forward. One of them

6:30

says he was there and saw it, here is what happened.

6:32

Not one other teenager ever found.

6:36

As far as the trial is

6:39

made aware to talk about the party. And

6:41

it didn't happen. Obviously it didn't happen. Everyone

6:44

hears the story, like the real story of all those

6:46

who have heard, pretty much immediately would

6:48

go like, wait, that's what happened to the trial? Okay,

6:50

well, I think Jake and Ty, the put up in

6:52

there are guilty, but that's really nonsense. I

6:55

mean, it's laughable and no one

6:57

likes to giggle when they're talking

7:00

about a tragic event, but some

7:02

of the pieces of the story are

7:05

so preposterous, it sounds like a bad

7:07

sketch on like SNL or something. Like

7:09

it's just like, well, that's, no

7:11

one's ever gonna believe that. Oh,

7:13

they did believe it. Okay. All right. Well,

7:15

that's where the tragedy comes in. Yeah. So

7:20

I want to back up real quick to season one, because

7:22

I feel more comfortable giving spoilers for like, because if you

7:24

haven't listened to season one yet, then you

7:27

just deserve the spoilers. How

7:29

did you turn that, can you share

7:31

like how you were able to turn

7:33

that case around and get them released

7:35

so quickly? In that case,

7:38

kind of similar to the basic story was pretty laughable.

7:40

And once you show the reality of it and

7:42

show how the case was built together, it wasn't

7:44

hard for people who even like

7:47

the victim's family, sort of family heard it and

7:49

they thought all along that these

7:51

two guys been guilty, but really

7:53

just hearing the evidence themselves is all it took

7:55

for them to realize that bad had happened here and then

7:57

eventually conclude that no, these two guys are And

8:01

that is definitely why it was

8:03

possible to get progress so fast because

8:05

politically it became much more not just

8:08

tenable, like there was pressure on them to do something.

8:11

The Floyd County DA's office was

8:13

not inclined to help out. In fact, they actually

8:15

called the victim's family and told them to stop

8:17

talking to podcasters that their office

8:19

works so hard to get justice for their family and how dare

8:21

they try and like undermine that now. So

8:25

they were at first on the board and then

8:27

eventually Kane's attorney,

8:29

Josh's attorney, was a local

8:31

who was actually former prosecutor there, now

8:33

with his attorney. And he knew who

8:36

to talk to, who to

8:38

bring arguments to, basically how to

8:40

show them that they really needed to

8:43

get out of the way and just do

8:45

the right thing. And it happened. It's

8:47

not easy, like, oh, just do that. Not

8:49

that hard on that. I'm just taking notes, so that's all

8:52

I need to do. You're

8:54

doing this wrong the whole time.

9:00

Did the prosecution end up joining a motion

9:02

to overturn it? Because clearly

9:04

you didn't have to fight it in that period

9:06

of time. Yes and no.

9:08

Yes, they agreed to overturn it. Unfortunately,

9:11

they wanted to get

9:13

their vengeance somehow. And the DA had a sticking point

9:16

where she was requiring one of the defendants, Josh

9:18

Story, to plead guilty of something else. Now

9:21

he brought the gun, so the two boys

9:23

were playing Russian Roulette, or at least one of them was. They

9:27

were both joking about playing it and then one played it

9:29

for real and lost. And the boy who

9:31

lived, the one who brought the gun there in the first

9:33

place. So he ended up pleading guilty

9:36

to account of essentially

9:38

involuntary manslaughter with a

9:41

predicate offense of bringing a gun to the house. And

9:45

was sentenced to just time served? Yeah,

9:48

10 years, then he was now at 23, 24, so he

9:50

was out. But that

9:52

was real implications for the future too, because not only is he...

9:55

He was actually had that record expunged immediately, so it's

9:57

not on this record, but it does make

10:00

like it much harder for the compensation. Now

10:02

in the end, Lee Clark is also not

10:04

going to compensation. So, you know, like he's

10:06

more solid. Yeah, theoretically, assuming that Georgia was

10:08

doing things right, it would have made

10:10

it so that even if Lee was a Liggett compensated,

10:13

Josh might not. Of course,

10:15

no one is. Yeah,

10:18

the Lee aspect is just bonkers. Yeah, nothing

10:20

to do with anything. Lee Clark is kind

10:22

of the same as Ty Lopes in the

10:24

current season. And that is someone who

10:26

just had literally no reason to be part

10:28

of this. Like you're like, why are they here? They're here as well,

10:30

so they'll be part of it. What

10:33

a nightmare. Yeah,

10:35

so we're going to kind of walk through some of season

10:37

two. So those of you listening, if you haven't heard towards

10:39

the end, we might get to some spoilers and you might

10:42

want to have pause and go listen to season two approved

10:44

before you come back because I don't want to not talk

10:46

about some of the stuff that you found. But

10:48

I want to talk to you a

10:50

little bit about even selfishly your fight

10:53

to get records and the way you discovered records in

10:55

that case. I'm currently going through it. We talked a

10:57

little bit off the air. Well,

10:59

first, when I was listening and you were talking about the

11:02

police department not giving

11:04

up any documents, which I thought was

11:06

insane until I heard you say California.

11:08

And we just went season 12 with

11:11

opinion opinion Pines case. Their open

11:13

records laws in California are essentially,

11:15

it seems like they can just for any reason

11:17

they want to just not give you anything. For

11:20

no reason. No reason that they don't even need a

11:22

reason. Yeah. Well, the reason they

11:24

gave us a reason. So in our case, it

11:26

was a it was a triple homicide. And

11:30

the victim, one of the

11:32

victims father, who

11:34

was another one of the victims, ex-husband who

11:37

lived 10 hours away, used

11:39

to work as a county sheriff.

11:41

And they're like, this involves a county employee,

11:43

so we don't have to give you the records. Oh,

11:45

they give you a reason. They don't have to. I

11:47

didn't. That's why I'm saying like, it's how nice of

11:50

them to make something. Yeah,

11:52

we had some of our listeners or attorneys try to

11:54

find one appeals for it and like try to take

11:56

the attorney and nothing that we just could not get

11:58

anything in that case. So my

12:00

current case is in Michigan, it's right here in my

12:02

county, and actually I have a little

12:04

update for my listeners. So this

12:07

is interesting. So I

12:09

had filed the records request for the

12:12

police file and the DA file, and

12:15

the police told me, oops, it

12:17

is a murder case. Oops, we

12:20

shredded that file, it's gone. And

12:23

I'm like, how is that possible? You can't

12:25

do that? And they're saying, oh, it was a former

12:27

chief didn't understand record retention laws. So they shredded

12:29

it. So I'm like, okay, well, the DA

12:31

will have a copy of that file. So

12:34

I go to the DA and I ask for the police

12:36

file and for copies of the

12:38

trial exhibits, and they won't tell me where the trial

12:40

exhibits are. And it's gone

12:42

on and I've talked a little bit, I haven't named

12:44

the agency, but I've talked a little bit about it

12:47

on the podcast and then had some email exchanges with

12:49

the district attorney, essentially tell them what

12:51

I'm doing and that if we

12:53

were just talking about this on our live last

12:55

night, about like the pressure

12:57

from doing podcasts and stuff like this, and

12:59

I told them, say, listen, everything you do, I'm

13:02

just, I'm not, I'm not trying to

13:04

intimidate you, but you need to know everything you do, 100,000 people

13:07

are going to be listening and they're all going to be, you know,

13:10

writing you and emailing you and calling you. So just

13:12

be aware of that, just giving you a heads up.

13:16

While we were having that conversation, I had

13:18

had those email exchanges with the DA, while

13:21

we were having that conversation, like while we were live at 8

13:23

30 p.m., I got a message back

13:26

from the police department that says, we found the file and we're

13:28

going to send you the copy. Yeah.

13:31

That 8 30. Yeah. So

13:33

I mean, maybe it's a coincidence, but I don't know what

13:35

records is working at 8 30 at

13:37

night doing that. But yeah, it's pretty wild. Yeah.

13:40

So hopefully I have, I have that file coming.

13:42

So what's what struggles did you go with go

13:45

through trying to find files for this case? It's

13:47

certainly a struggle. It's just like a flat out no. That's

13:50

not how you handle it. So here's

13:53

we did have records from the defense

13:55

files. Luckily, tween tie and Jake,

13:57

family members, people involved had kept copies of

13:59

like, so efficiently, like most of it. Um,

14:01

we had, I think 95% of everything that

14:03

was handed over. Of course, stuff we

14:05

probably really want and stuff they didn't hand over ever.

14:08

Um, and that was still in half, but

14:10

they did dial requests. And here's one

14:12

thing in California. There is exception. Um,

14:15

California can say no for any reason, except to

14:17

victims and victims or representatives. They are

14:19

entitled to copies of a large subset of it,

14:21

not everything, but like witness statements, witness addresses,

14:23

witness names, they're supposed to

14:25

get that in California law. Well, Donner

14:28

in this, the mother of the victim in this

14:30

case, she signed a letter

14:33

requesting copies of all those records a few

14:35

months ago now. No,

14:37

like cool. That that's what you had. Like we tried

14:40

it with other cases. We wanted there. We found victims,

14:42

family members who did the request

14:44

for us and they did get the files, so it did

14:46

work. They tried it for this case and they

14:48

said, sorry, no, here's one initial

14:50

police statement like the day of, and then

14:52

a 10 page list of redacted names, which

14:56

is actually not allowed in the

14:58

California law. So you heard on the final

15:00

episode, slide spoiler. Um, we, she's

15:03

resubmitted a request and I

15:05

don't know how it's going to go. I'm not optimistic,

15:08

but that's the case of where actually California law was on our

15:10

side and they still said no. Yeah.

15:12

So then they're probably trying to find the exception for,

15:14

but what if they're talking to a podcaster? Unfortunately

15:19

for them, that's one thing California has not

15:21

yet done. I'm sure they're working on it,

15:23

but they're not there yet. Yeah. But, but

15:25

that does work. And we did that, um,

15:27

with, uh, Sandy Melgar's case and they were

15:30

kind of stonewalling me for documents, but the

15:32

daughter of the victim filed a request and

15:34

then they turned everything over to her and

15:36

like in Texas, they can't. They,

15:39

they won't give any crime scene photos that were the

15:41

body that, you know, there's all kinds of laws about

15:43

that, but they will to the family. So she was

15:46

able to get all that stuff and then pass it

15:48

on to, on to me. Um,

15:50

so hopefully that works out. So how did you,

15:52

you basically just proceeded, because

15:54

that's kind of where I'm at now, I'm going, I think

15:56

there, there are hope in my case was that I would

15:58

just go away if I didn't have. of all the

16:00

documents that I needed, but not

16:03

I'm going forward and just boots on the

16:05

ground interviewing people and doing the investigation that

16:07

way. How did you handle not having everything

16:09

that you needed? I mean,

16:12

you do what you can. The documents are

16:14

great. You need them. But also, like, the

16:17

records aren't always accurate or what you want

16:19

for reinvestigating. They're good for... They're important

16:21

for, like, ready violations, finding that kind of stuff

16:23

and, like, finding bad

16:25

acts by the investigators. But

16:27

they don't always help you with finding out the

16:29

truth of what happened. So, you know,

16:32

that's always good to have. It's not always

16:34

a measurable loss. So you just

16:36

redo the... You redo it from scratch. You find

16:38

the witnesses. You talk to them. You can't

16:40

always challenge what they said before if you don't have a copy of

16:42

it. At least you can find out what they say now. Right.

16:46

And so would the next... I mean, obviously,

16:49

having just listened to that episode when it came out, this

16:52

final episode and the

16:54

outreach that you make to

16:56

the general public for legal

16:58

assistance for Jake,

17:00

like, he definitely needs representation and

17:03

needs to be someone who can do it pro bono. You

17:06

did so much legwork just to try

17:09

to have better news, it sounded like,

17:11

for the last episode. And then also...

17:15

Like, so would a next step then be

17:17

because you have somebody who you

17:19

talk to and this is... I guess falls into the

17:21

spoiler category if you haven't listened to Season 2 at

17:23

all, folks. But you have someone

17:26

who says, hey, I did bring

17:28

this information to the police. It is

17:30

a potential Brady violation. Without

17:32

being able to check it against any

17:34

records, would the next step on that

17:36

be once he has representation then you

17:39

are really talking about a plea

17:42

that asks for that information? So

17:44

the thing is, it doesn't matter. The defense... It's

17:47

not like they have a better access

17:49

than we do. Like, the defendant does not have

17:51

more access to the records than anyone else. So

17:53

that actually would not be something that

17:55

his attorney would necessarily have better luck getting. Now...

17:57

But how the hell can you ever talk about...

18:00

Brady in the state of California. That's the

18:02

whole point. I'm moving. That's

18:04

a feature, not a bug. The thing is,

18:06

you don't need that. The Brady violation is not the pain

18:08

in a document saying it. The Brady violation is the fact

18:10

that you have a witness that talks to cops and that

18:12

was never confirmed. Proving it can be

18:14

hard, but again, why would this guy ever make that up?

18:16

He has no concept of Brady violation. He has

18:18

no concept of what he says is important legally.

18:22

He's saying something that's damaging to him, that he had

18:24

a very... That's

18:28

not something anyone in this world wants to admit they talk

18:30

to a cop. That's not something he was eager to share.

18:33

He's like, okay, here's what happened. He's

18:36

credible. In that sense, he has no reason

18:38

to lie about that whatsoever and every reason not to disclose

18:40

it. And the fact that cop

18:43

is dead means we can't ask him for confirmation, but fat

18:45

cop probably talks to others about it. So get

18:47

them understand, ask them. The

18:50

lack of reference is not going to be the deal breaker there.

18:53

Although honestly, he has so many other claims too that I

18:55

feel like that may not

18:57

be where the fight comes down to. And plus there's the deal...

18:59

Well, you know, there's the... Hopefully, the

19:02

be all, end all answer and we'll make

19:04

any sort of legal wrangling post connection proceedings.

19:08

Nope. Trying

19:12

to break a bad habit can be really, really

19:14

difficult. Trust me, I've been there. It

19:16

can be enough to drive you insane. But

19:19

here's a breath of fresh air. Fume.

19:22

It's not about giving up. It's about switching

19:24

up. Fume takes your

19:26

habit and simply makes it better, healthier and

19:29

a whole lot more enjoyable. Fume

19:31

is an innovative, award-winning flavored air

19:33

device that does just that. Instead

19:36

of vapor, Fume uses flavored air. Instead

19:39

of electronics, Fume is completely natural. And

19:42

instead of harmful chemicals, Fume

19:44

uses delicious flavors. You

19:46

get it. Instead of bad, Fume is

19:48

good. It's a habit you're

19:51

free to enjoy and makes replacing your bad

19:53

habit easy. Fume comes with

19:55

an adjustable air flow dial and is designed

19:57

with movable parts and magnets for fidgeting, giving

20:00

your fingers a lot to do which is

20:02

helpful for de-stressing and anxiety while breaking your

20:04

habit. I was pretty leery about trying

20:06

my fume, I really didn't think it would help me

20:08

break my habit, but honestly it

20:10

was surprisingly satisfying and

20:12

really helped with that hand to mouth obsession that

20:14

those of us with bad habits tend to struggle

20:16

with. And it tastes great. If

20:19

vapor would be compared to sticky soda,

20:21

fume flavors would compare to like herbal

20:23

tea, much more natural. Plus

20:25

fumes just released a magnetic stand for your

20:27

fume so there's no more losing it around

20:29

the house. It's built with fidgeting and

20:32

minding, spin your fume around on it. So

20:34

start the year off right

20:36

with the good habit by

20:38

going to tryfume.com/truth and

20:41

getting the journey pack today. And

20:44

Fume is giving listeners of this show 10% off

20:46

when they use my code truth to help

20:48

make starting the good habit that much

20:50

easier. One

20:53

more time that's

20:55

tryfume.com slash truth and

20:57

use my code truth. Some

21:02

people just know there's a better way to do things

21:05

like bundling your home and auto insurance with

21:08

Allstate or going to the

21:10

grocery store for milk instead of buying your own cow.

21:14

You know there's an easier and better way.

21:17

Save up to 25% when you bundle home

21:19

and auto with Allstate. Bundled

21:22

savings vary by state and are not available in every state. Saving

21:25

up to 25% is the country wide average of the maximum available

21:27

savings off the home policy. I'm Karen Mitchell

21:29

with property insurance company and affiliates in Northbrook, Illinois. Some

21:33

people just know the best rate for you is

21:35

a rate based on you with Allstate. Not

21:38

a rate based on Terry who keeps and

21:41

makes the car behind them. Oh

21:44

no, they're about to. Save

21:48

with drive wise and Allstate app and only

21:50

pay a rate based on you. Not

21:53

available in every state subject to terms and conditions. Rating factors and

21:56

savings vary and at some stage your rate could increase with high

21:58

risk driving. company and

22:00

affiliates north of Illinois. And

22:08

also I was going to say earlier, that's what I meant to

22:11

mention is your statement out

22:13

to, you know, the current DA's office saying

22:15

like, you have this opportunity, you have an

22:18

opportunity to do what's right. And we

22:21

don't have to sit around and wait for a lawyer to

22:23

show up. You can absolutely take action on this now,

22:25

which I thought was really meaningful. The

22:28

other thing that I wanted to and we

22:30

see some questions rolling in too, but just

22:34

comment on if nothing else is to say

22:36

that, you know, again, I said it at

22:38

the beginning of the episode, but the dynamic

22:40

that you guys have and I think we

22:42

really get such a flavor of that in

22:45

the way that you've produced and released this

22:47

podcast. You feel like you're along for the

22:49

ride in kind of a new fresh way.

22:51

I don't think we get that as much

22:53

with Undisclosed. Towards the end, I think there

22:56

was more in some cases

22:58

with you and Jacinda talking in the car or with

23:01

Rabia being boots on the ground. But

23:04

for me, it really struck me like it

23:06

felt like this dynamic

23:10

is working with the people that you're

23:12

talking to. And I just thought that

23:14

was very inspiring. Like it feels like

23:16

you're really getting people to talk and to

23:18

trust you and there are a lot of

23:21

women in the case that we're talking about,

23:23

a lot of friends, a lot of family

23:25

who are women who are talking about, you

23:27

know, a horrific thing that happened to another

23:29

woman in their lives. And

23:31

I just think it's kind of remarkable

23:33

that you have such a great vibe,

23:36

frankly, with the people that

23:38

you talked on the podcast, including people who

23:41

maybe get too comfortable and say things that

23:43

they shouldn't because you guys are good at

23:45

your jobs. Is that something that you felt

23:48

that you really feel when your boots on

23:50

the ground with your team? Yeah,

23:53

well, Jacinda and I are very different. Our approach is very

23:55

different in how we investigate and talk

23:57

to people. And we've definitely realized that's

23:59

a strange... and we sort of have a, we

24:01

don't really need to talk about it, like we'll meet a witness and

24:03

we'll kind of get a sense sort of right away, like who should

24:05

take the lead? Like who is the one

24:07

to, like we don't know you need to negotiate, like

24:09

you talk to this person, I'll talk to this one, kind

24:12

of just naturally happens, like this is what I'm gonna be talking

24:14

to, this is what I'll be handling, and just

24:16

whoever you match better with, or

24:18

just whoever is gonna have the connection there

24:20

that is genuine and leads to real conversations,

24:23

which is the important thing. That's

24:25

great. I wanna circle back real quick to

24:27

the fact that he said that the defense

24:30

is not any more entitled to documents than

24:32

the general public. Like

24:34

how does that work with discovery

24:36

laws? Well, during the case it's different. When

24:38

the case is actually ongoing, that's different. That's

24:40

how we have files now, because during the

24:42

trial they did get records or have those

24:45

records, but once it's over, once

24:47

it's no longer an active proceeding, they have no greater

24:49

obligation. They hand it over to a defendant than

24:51

they do to anyone else except for victim's families. So

24:53

they do have to hand it over to them. It

24:56

just seems such a free for all. So

25:00

we dealt with in our season 12 case kind

25:02

of a really weird situation

25:05

where there were cell phone records

25:07

that I believe exonerated the

25:09

defendants. They had, do

25:12

you remember from Adnan's case, they had like a basic cell

25:15

phone report, and then they had the call detail report

25:17

that showed all the sectors and the transfers and all

25:19

that stuff. And the

25:22

prosecution at trial told

25:25

the defense they didn't have

25:27

those and it was too late to get them.

25:30

Weirdly, they had actually

25:32

already received them and had turned

25:34

them over in discovery. So the

25:36

defense actually had them in their

25:38

file. Didn't know they had it.

25:41

Didn't know they had it and then

25:43

stipulated at trial that they didn't exist

25:45

when both sides had them in

25:47

their files. And the defense didn't realize it? No,

25:50

we found it. Like when I was going through the file. The defense

25:52

hadn't gone through it. Yeah. Yeah,

25:54

that's not uncommon unfortunately. Sometimes

25:57

attorneys, sometimes prosecutors just hide

25:59

things. don't give it over. Sometimes they

26:01

do the opposite and try and bury the other side and hope

26:04

that they won't find whatever needle they've

26:06

hidden in the haystack, which I

26:08

prefer, obviously. I'll take that anytime. This is

26:10

going to find it. Yeah,

26:12

but it can be effective

26:15

too for the attorneys who are overworked or

26:17

not necessarily. Sure. Yeah.

26:19

In our case, it was actually, it wasn't me.

26:21

It was a listener that found it because it

26:23

was buried in the files. You have some listeners

26:25

that have full access to stuff that help us

26:27

out. There were folders that

26:30

said cell phone records, cell phone data,

26:32

and then there was this one folder with just

26:34

some guy's name on it and buried in there.

26:37

That was the name of the guy that filed

26:39

the subpoena and boom, there's the records that

26:41

everybody stipulated didn't exist, which

26:44

I'm sure is going to be

26:47

interesting filing when they filed their habeas in the

26:49

fall and how they go about

26:51

that because it was there

26:54

the whole time. Yeah. This is

26:56

where the intersection of Brady

26:58

and IAC is always problematic because

27:00

most of these cases, it's not

27:02

clearly one or the other. There's definitely

27:04

a Brady violation and it's exacerbated by the attorneys

27:07

who are just not on the ball. They

27:09

sometimes think that they can get away with that that way

27:11

because they say it's not either because it's kind of both.

27:14

Right. In this case, you can't

27:16

say it's Brady because they're like, what do you mean? We

27:18

did give it to you. It was in the discovery. Yeah,

27:21

you're letting that IAC. IAC.

27:23

I don't think more. Yeah. Because

27:26

they stipulated that something didn't exist

27:28

that they had in their file

27:31

the whole time. Then of course,

27:33

you got to, then there's the battle of is it material

27:35

or not? I'm sure the fight that we'll be fighting. In

27:39

that regard, I have a question

27:41

here in the live chat. Tool

27:44

Girl wants to know, is there any legislation being

27:46

proposed in California that you're aware of to change

27:48

some of these laws to make it easier for

27:51

defendants to access? Not that I'm aware of. Now,

27:53

but there is also a recent law change. A year

27:56

or two ago, they actually introduced, there was

27:58

a big movement to... pass

28:00

a new law in California to allow challenges

28:03

to scientific evidence to be more

28:05

easily brought. And as far as I'm

28:07

aware, that's not actually been used yet

28:09

in any cases. I think that

28:11

Jake's case would be an amazing

28:13

opportunity for it to be put into action because there's

28:16

so much with the forensics

28:18

here that was done inappropriately. But

28:21

yeah, it'd be a great test case for this

28:23

new law that basically allows like scientific evidence with

28:25

new information that's found to

28:27

be brought without being blocked

28:29

by various procedural issues. In

28:31

this case, like just the

28:33

medical examiner alone with HISA trial, I

28:35

think would qualify as

28:39

news of the big evidence for Jake because

28:41

the pregnancy issue was so central. Oh my

28:43

God, how egregious. Wow. Yeah.

28:45

That almost like felt like from a non-lawyer. Like how

28:47

is that? That's got to be a due process violation

28:50

of some kind. Like he literally was false testimony. It

28:52

was a hundred percent false testimony. It is false testimony.

28:54

And I can't say he's lying because I don't know

28:56

like once in a 10, I can say we know

28:58

he's wrong. We don't know why he said that. Again,

29:01

his record makes it very clear that he is

29:04

someone you can... If

29:06

you're the attorney who has brought him on board,

29:09

you can probably get him to say whatever you want. Like

29:12

the case where the man died of 27

29:14

stab wounds but just coincidentally died of a heart attack

29:16

in the middle of the night attack. Right.

29:18

Again, SNL sketch. Right. So

29:21

in a different case where he was brought in

29:23

to say it was self-defense because the victim had

29:25

so many stab wounds, the medical

29:27

examiner argued that it was a sign of how

29:29

violent and scary he was because it took that

29:32

many stab wounds to kill him. That's why it

29:34

was proof of self-defense. And

29:36

this is working? These are in cases

29:38

where... Oh, those didn't work. Didn't work.

29:41

Okay. Yeah, I know. It didn't

29:43

work out for him. But he still made the argument. And

29:47

he's still getting called in to do stuff.

29:49

So it's not like he had to retreat

29:51

into a... Oh, yeah. This

29:53

is all right after Jake's case. He's not been active for

29:55

several years as far as we can tell. He

29:58

lost his license in practice. Oh, that's good. So basically

30:00

the same within a year of Jake's case,

30:02

he lost his license, but he was still

30:04

able to be an expert witness to give

30:06

his opinion, but he couldn't do autopsies anymore,

30:08

arguing medicine. I mean, I

30:11

would hope that any good attorney on the

30:13

other side would be like, let me just

30:15

break this down for everyone. Here's

30:17

your extra help. You can't do what anymore now? Yeah.

30:20

You're not allowed to touch people. The phone's not going

30:22

to be ringing off the hook for this guy. Yeah,

30:24

exactly. Yeah. And for the record, so we

30:27

had one line in the show that I was

30:29

told was not allowed to do, and that's where

30:32

this recording of me talking about was medical examiner,

30:34

and I called him a total fucking hat. So

30:37

sadly that was not scientific enough to

30:39

leave in, but I still stand on that and send it

30:42

in there. Right. I

30:44

mean, you have the evidence. Do we need to take this to the court? Yeah.

30:47

You definitely have plenty of exhibits to show. Yeah.

30:50

Alison in our chat says, I want to know if

30:52

Susan's going to take the California bar to represent Jake.

30:55

I would do a lot for Jake. I would do a lot

30:57

for him, me and my defendants, but I will absolutely not do

30:59

that. I need to do more research

31:01

into exonerees in California because it

31:03

seems like I never hear about

31:06

them and it seems virtually impossible.

31:08

What is an Innocence Project in

31:10

California? I mean, other than DNA,

31:12

which is what we bump into

31:14

so many times with Innocence Projects across

31:16

the United States, but here, just

31:18

not even being able to see the

31:20

investigation that was done in any meaningful

31:22

way, unless you have the victim's family

31:24

on board to get some of that

31:27

documentation, it just feels so daunting. I

31:29

mean, if you do have a trial file still,

31:31

then theoretically that's a good start.

31:33

I mean, it does mean that if there's stuff they didn't hand

31:35

over to trial counsel, no one's ever going to get it. Yeah.

31:39

Right. But like if a lot of the Innocence Groups out there,

31:41

just the resources are always an issue

31:43

and they prefer to work with DNA

31:46

cases because that's much more manageable. Right.

31:49

And I will say I am optimistic that we will

31:52

get counsel for Jake. I'm not at this point too

31:54

worried about that. So

31:56

there's definitely a work in progress. Ideally, in a

31:58

perfect world, we've gotten counsel. on board, got the

32:00

stuff to do for testing, give you time to

32:03

have an answer before the last episode aired. It didn't work

32:05

out, but we'll get there eventually. It's

32:07

still a damn impressive amount of work by

32:09

the end. Yeah. On that

32:11

topic, Caroline wanted to know if we

32:14

can raise money for a decent attorney for Jake. Is

32:16

there any fundraising been talked about or do you have any attorneys

32:18

that are on board and she wants to

32:21

know what something like that costs? Like

32:23

a million? I mean, probably not a million. It

32:25

would be a lot. I'm

32:27

hopeful it won't come to that. If it

32:29

does, then I'll come back and put another

32:31

episode out and like zag for help, but

32:34

I'm optimistic that we'll find something

32:36

to work. It's not that there aren't

32:38

attorneys who would be interested in helping Jake. It's just

32:40

there's always so much in the... Like,

32:43

it's not just a question of like this attorney likes the case and

32:45

they're going to take it. Like there's just so much about

32:47

the right person, right time, right place and try

32:49

and get those pieces all lined up. It's

32:53

harder than you'd expect. And often the troubles that you

32:55

run into are not the ones you'd anticipate. Sure.

32:59

I want to... Sorry, did

33:01

you have something, Janet? No, I was just going to

33:03

say on the flip side of that, Barb in

33:05

the chat wants to know if we're

33:07

not raising money for Jake. Is there a

33:10

way to have that kind of groundswell and

33:12

when is the right time to do that? You don't like

33:15

rather than pissing someone off, when is the right time to

33:17

sort of be inflated with people saying, will you please take

33:19

a look at this, take a look at this, take a

33:21

look at this? Yeah, to petition the county to review the

33:23

case. Yeah, I think the first step is to

33:25

see if we can get counsel on board

33:27

with this really quick and let them figure it out and

33:30

talk to them. I mean, if you're

33:32

in San Joaquin County, like that's

33:34

your government, that's your people, they're

33:37

obligated to be responsive to

33:39

you. So,

33:41

people, those citizens of that county

33:43

should definitely do whatever they feel is

33:46

right to talk to their government. But beyond

33:48

that, I think we're just trying

33:50

to get all

33:53

the pieces together in order for Jake to have

33:55

counsel get the testing done and get some answers.

34:00

So Alison says another question. She

34:02

said, the podcast raised two possible

34:05

alternative scenarios. Is there one that

34:07

you're leaning towards? So I would

34:09

say it was two alternative scenarios. There's

34:11

definitely two alternative people

34:13

of interest we've talked a lot about.

34:16

But I think what the podcast showed

34:19

is that, like what our investigation showed

34:21

is that we

34:23

don't actually know what Renee's final days look

34:25

like. We know we have a good idea where

34:27

she was now. She was

34:29

probably with her friend, Tim

34:31

Fisher, at a house, at least part of

34:33

the time, at a house not

34:36

too far from Home Depot, actually. We

34:38

don't know an exact date. There's possible

34:41

reasons to think it was very close in time to when she

34:43

died. But that doesn't mean that

34:45

was her last stop. I mean, it kind of opens up

34:48

all sorts of potential options here because let's

34:51

say she was with Tim and decided she

34:53

had enough of that and

34:55

went home and something happened on the way home. We

34:57

just don't know. Until Tim Fisher wants

34:59

to talk to us again and give us some more answers

35:01

about when he last saw her, where she last was, we've

35:04

got a lot of options on the table. Yeah,

35:08

I don't think at this point we can say definitively

35:10

or even have the solid answer.

35:12

We can have ideas and guesses and look into

35:15

them all, but there's room for so much

35:17

to have happened that that's all we can say at this point.

35:19

Other than that we know certain people are now think

35:21

forthcoming about what they know. Right. Now,

35:23

I thought that was really interesting and that was well

35:25

handled as well because I

35:28

think when you're in a smaller community and you

35:31

have and you start to find out that there

35:33

are people who have a lot of connections to

35:36

each other and you're sort of having these moments

35:38

of like, oh, wait, you do know these people

35:40

and like, oh, you guys did connect. Oh, you

35:42

would have run into each other. Then the temptation

35:45

would be to go, I think we found everyone

35:47

who would have possibly been, you know what I

35:50

mean? Which maybe is less tempting if you're

35:52

in Chicago or Los Angeles. So you're like,

35:54

okay, well, there's infinite possibilities, but when you're

35:56

in a smaller community, it probably

35:58

is easy. Not for you because you obviously

36:00

didn't do this, but to kind of go down the road

36:02

of like, gosh, I think we

36:04

must kind of have talked to everybody.

36:06

And so it was such an important

36:08

point to say, wow, this is a black

36:11

hole. Like we have a bit of a black hole

36:13

here and we have to leave open room

36:15

for what we don't know what we don't know. Yeah.

36:18

And we've learned pretty quickly

36:20

on actually, you hear on the podcast before we

36:22

realized this, our discussions, but like, you can't

36:24

assume anyone doesn't know anyone in that town. At

36:27

least back then, it's a bigger town now, it's much different

36:29

now. But back then, like you could not safely assume anyone

36:31

didn't know anyone. And we get set up

36:33

a couple of times where people from two different, not

36:36

world, but two different sides of that community, very

36:39

distant in age, location, like

36:41

groups, and you would think it'd

36:43

be safe to assume they weren't hanging out together and find

36:45

out like, no, no, they hung out all the time.

36:47

They just casually knew someone somehow. And

36:51

it can also have the opposite effect where

36:53

it seems over-significant. Like, what are they all saying to each

36:55

other? Well, pretty good actually. So. Yeah.

36:58

But it does mean that like the

37:00

range of possibilities is wider than you

37:02

would initially imagine. Like again, so Chicago,

37:04

you wouldn't, you wouldn't

37:06

accept this kind of random cross world

37:09

colliding kind of things. Here you

37:11

just don't have to disagree. So

37:14

I want to get into now, um, this

37:16

is the big spoiler stuff. So, so tune

37:18

out now if you don't want to know

37:20

what happens at the end of season two

37:22

proof. Don't call my dog out. Sorry. I

37:25

laugh. Amy

37:28

feels much better about her 80 pound boxer. So

37:35

at the end of your

37:37

final episode, you guys are going through

37:39

files and you guys talk

37:42

about what you found in the files. That

37:44

seems like everybody's been looking for for years.

37:48

I think is it, you want to even look for them. We

37:50

know there was one request made by the descent back in 2016

37:52

when Jake did have an attorney and the police

37:55

said, Oh, we can't find the evidence of this case. And that was it. It

37:58

turns out that the victims clothing. and

38:00

her necklaces and some of the hairs, not

38:02

all of them, some of the hairs from the crime

38:04

scene were trial exhibits. And although records

38:06

suggested they would have gone back to the antique police

38:09

department, we think they just never did.

38:11

Like the clerk just had them and no one

38:13

picked them up. So even the paperwork said they

38:15

were like, you know, processed back if it should

38:17

have been, which they just weren't, it was there.

38:19

It wasn't a big deal. They'll sit

38:21

there forever till the end of time. And they

38:24

were still there and they were still in good condition

38:26

and they were still just waiting

38:29

to be tested. Yeah. The,

38:31

I mean, the potential murder weapon

38:33

is sitting in an envelope in

38:35

a file somewhere. No, an actual zip lock bag. Like

38:37

a little, like, zip lock bag. I heard you said

38:39

sandwich bag. Yeah. It's an actual zip lock bag. Like

38:41

it was really funny. Like could have had a sandwich in it. It

38:44

could have had a sandwich in it. Right.

38:47

So in every... Like the killer was a piece of ham. Right.

38:51

It's a pig. I don't know. And

38:55

along those lines, Tool Girl says, if they agree

38:57

to test the hemp necklace for DNA, does the

38:59

defendant have the right to request MBAC extraction or

39:01

is it up to the county to decide what

39:03

collection method they use? Well, that's why I really,

39:06

really want to get an attorney for Jake because

39:08

that way he can advocate for the testing that's

39:10

done. Some

39:18

people just know the best rate for you is

39:20

a rate based on you with all state. It's

39:23

not a rate based on Terry who keeps... I

39:25

see. ...and makes the car behind them... Oh

39:29

no, they're about to... Save

39:33

with DriveWise and the Allstate app and only

39:35

pay a rate based on you. Not

39:38

available in every state, subject to terms and conditions, rating

39:41

factors and savings vary, and incentives your rate could increase with

39:43

high-risk driving. Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance

39:45

Company in Affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. Some

39:48

people just know there's a better way to do things. Like

39:51

bundling your home and auto insurance with Allstate.

39:54

Or going to the grocery store for milk instead of

39:56

buying your own cow. You

39:59

know that. So there's an easier and better

40:01

way. Save up to 25% when you

40:04

bundle home and auto with Austin.

40:07

Bundled savings vary by state and are not available in

40:09

every state. Saving up to 25% is the countrywide average

40:11

of the maximum available savings off the home policy. All

40:14

state vehicle and property insurance company and affiliates north of

40:16

Illinois. Okay, round

40:18

two. Name something that's not

40:20

boring. A laundry? A

40:23

book club? Computer Solitaire?

40:25

Huh? Sorry,

40:29

we were looking for Chumba Casino. Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-chumba!

40:32

That's right! chumbacasino.com

40:35

has over 100 casino-style games. Join today and

40:37

play for free for your chance to redeem

40:39

some serious prizes! Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-chumba!

40:42

chumbacasino.com Do

40:54

you know, is there any, has

40:56

there been any communication with the

40:58

prosecutor's office in regards to what

41:00

you found in testing anything like

41:02

that? Nope. I assume they know, but

41:04

I have no knowledge of that. So

41:07

when you guys were done, I just got tucked right back in that

41:09

file and stuck in the... Oh yeah, we just slid back

41:12

on the little car and wheeled away again. So it's

41:14

still there. You

41:16

guys were pretty chill about that. Sorry

41:18

to interrupt. Go ahead. You know, we

41:21

were actually like, it was even chillers and like

41:23

your thinking's like, you know, we're in a room or

41:25

we're going fast. It's so much to do that day.

41:27

You literally heard every time, every

41:30

bit of audio. It wasn't like you had to

41:32

cut stuff out. That was really the only audio.

41:35

Oh my God, you're in such a rush. That's

41:37

so crazy. You and Jacinda are very different than

41:39

me and Janet. Janet, could you imagine if it

41:41

was me and you in there and we found

41:43

that? Hey, fuckers!

41:45

Go back here! We

41:49

had some crap and all the audio, because it was all like...

41:54

Picture down picture. I'm like trying to boost it

41:56

and make it usable for the show. Crazy. All

42:00

the listeners did the excitement. The

42:02

shouting for us. Yeah. It was

42:04

like, I mean, I had to go back and listen

42:07

to it again. I was like, I

42:09

need to hear this again. I just need to hear

42:11

them find this again. It's amazing. Like,

42:13

oh. Of course it was here. I mean, in hindsight, it

42:15

made sense. We're like, oh, I guess that's like the last

42:18

place. It's not anywhere else. They probably

42:20

didn't throw it out. So I'm thinking

42:23

backwards. Like, we probably couldn't guess that's where it'd

42:25

be. But we just hadn't put that together at

42:27

the time. So we go in to get the

42:29

copy of our VHS tapes and like, oh, here.

42:31

Here's the complaints. Here's her shirt. There you go.

42:34

OK. That's crazy. Now, we

42:36

are still missing some of the two of the hairs

42:38

where they are on the file. There are a bunch

42:40

of other hairs that were found that could be interesting.

42:43

We don't know. We still don't know where those are.

42:45

Apparently, Minty Gipley doesn't have those. The courts

42:48

don't have them. So those may be actually

42:50

legitimate things, including

42:53

one hair that like, in Senden Academy, like Susan stopped

42:55

talking about his hair. It's the dumbest thing they ever

42:57

said in their life, stop talking about it. But I

42:59

want to know, because there was a dog

43:01

hair found in her underwear, like

43:03

poking out of her underwear on

43:05

her torso. And it was

43:07

a long, curly dog hair. And you

43:10

know, like, it could be

43:12

a lot of dogs have that kind of hair. But

43:14

we do know, Jerrick Conway, the serial sex

43:16

offender's mom, had a little Yorkie. And

43:19

like, that's definitely a kind

43:22

of dog that would leave like a slightly

43:24

wavy, long brown hair. Yeah. Interestingly,

43:27

Yorkies are the one type of dog that

43:29

have a very unique hair structure. So if

43:31

it is a Yorkie hair, like you could basically,

43:34

you don't even need DNA. You could eyeball

43:36

that. And be like, that's a Yorkie hair. The

43:39

last one, the structure that all the dog hairs have. So

43:42

that wouldn't prove anything. If it was a Yorkie

43:44

hair, I would definitely be side-eyeing Jerrick

43:47

Conway even more. Right. They

43:49

can't give you shit for that. The

43:52

fact that there happens to be one type

43:56

of dog that is so unique that

43:58

its hair is like. Like, of

44:01

course you want to take a look. Of course you want more

44:03

information. Yeah, but here's a long shot and

44:05

the hair has gone down anyway, but yeah. Yeah,

44:08

that's, I mean, you just, it just,

44:10

you want as much information as you can to

44:12

help it and there's always that, especially for

44:14

me being a non lawyer, like that's, I'm

44:17

like, I want to understand what's happening. I know you

44:19

guys figure out how to make it a legal case,

44:21

but like, that's part of understanding

44:24

what might have happened there. Uh,

44:26

and, and again, I was, I was so encouraged, like when

44:28

you guys found that stuff in that file, cause that's like,

44:31

again, in the case I'm working right now, they're

44:33

telling me they don't know where

44:35

the trial exhibits are. So

44:37

like I'm reading trial transcripts and they say exhibit

44:40

this, is this transcript? Where is

44:42

it? They're not at the court. Good

44:45

question. That's what I, this is

44:47

what I told the DA. I was like, listen, with

44:50

what I've already found in my investigation, I'm

44:52

fairly confident this conviction is going to be

44:55

overturned. At which point you're going to need

44:57

to retry it one way or another. How are you going

44:59

to do that with no evidence? Cause you're telling

45:01

me all the evidence. Have you asked the

45:03

court? Yeah.

45:05

So I started on, I, cause generally in

45:08

most systems I've worked in, the

45:10

exhibits and transcripts and stuff are housed

45:12

by the, by the district clerk's office.

45:15

And then, so usually I'll file a FOIA

45:17

there for that stuff. And then I'll file

45:19

a FOIA with the prosecutor's office for the

45:22

DA's file. I went to the

45:24

district clerk's office and requested all the trial exhibits. And

45:26

they said, Oh, you got to go to the prosecutor.

45:29

We don't carry that. So they said, we

45:31

don't have it or you got to go to the prosecutor first? Essentially

45:34

she said, she said you have to file

45:37

your FOIA for that through the prosecutor. She didn't really

45:39

say if they had it. She didn't say they didn't

45:41

have it. So they probably have it. And they're,

45:43

they're deflecting. Yeah. Yeah.

45:45

And so then I file it with the prosecutor and they're

45:48

like, we don't, I'm in the lady calls. She's like, I'm

45:50

looking through the file. There's no exhibits in here. I'm like,

45:52

well, there's somewhere. Where are they? My guess is they're in

45:54

the court. The court didn't want to be the one to

45:56

hand it over. So they're telling you, you have to get

45:58

the courts, the DA's permission. which may or may not be true.

46:00

I don't know what the, I don't know where Michigan's law

46:03

is there. So the Michigan, the

46:05

DA is saying truthfully, we don't have it. But

46:07

what could be going on is the clerk isn't

46:10

saying they don't have it at all. They're just saying they need

46:12

the DA to get permission for the clerk to hand it over.

46:14

And they're definitely not, because I keep like in

46:16

my female exchanges, in my FOIA,

46:20

to the DA, I'm saying, I

46:22

want to know where they are. Like,

46:24

you don't have to give them to me. They don't have to

46:26

tell you where. Yes, they have to tell you. Like,

46:29

if they don't know where it is, they don't have

46:31

to like, I mean, it depends on the law

46:33

in the context here. But yeah, it's theoretically possible. Your

46:36

request to the DA's office are only the stuff

46:38

they have in their possession. So it's

46:40

really the clerk you gotta go back to and say,

46:42

show me the law, it says the DA's gotta sign

46:44

off on this. Like, you have the, my request is

46:46

to you, you have to hand them over, unless there's

46:48

no law here in which case the DA can be

46:50

brought in. But the FOIA to the DA

46:53

probably won't work if they don't actually have custody over

46:55

those materials. No, and that's what, so,

46:57

and that was, it was like through email with

46:59

the head DA I was talking to, I was

47:02

like, procedurally, forget this

47:04

case. When a trial's over, who

47:08

then takes possession of the trial exhibit?

47:11

It depends. If you just refuses to answer the question. Okay, so

47:13

then they've got to think. Yeah,

47:16

I'll ask five questions and I'll get a response

47:18

back to four of them. And that one, nothing.

47:20

They won't tell me anything about where the exhibit

47:22

is. And then guess where it is. It sounds

47:24

like they're not law, they're just trying to, CIA

47:28

producing them. Yeah,

47:30

so I'm gonna take your advice. I'm gonna, well, now they

47:32

have now officially finally

47:35

told me that they are, that

47:37

they're producing my request. They won't tell

47:39

me what's in it. They just want $1,000 for

47:41

redacting that I sent them. And then they're

47:43

gonna, so I'm gonna see what I get from them to see if

47:45

I get the file. Cause I also asked for a chain

47:48

of custody for the trial exhibits. I don't know if they

47:50

will even have one. They

47:52

should, oh, you know, that can, as

47:55

you can see from our case, I can get screwed up too.

47:57

But yeah. But there should be something in there that says where

47:59

they went. next. It should be. Yeah. Like,

48:02

when you really like break down the sleight of

48:04

hands and stuff that happened in the legal system,

48:06

it's it weren't so sad. It would be funny

48:08

in the sense that it's like, this is what

48:10

children do. This is like what

48:12

a child does. A child is like, wait

48:15

a minute. What if I

48:17

say I don't know where it is?

48:19

Like this sort of, you know, giving

48:21

you're giving people the runaround is just like, oh

48:23

my God, I can't believe this is where we

48:26

are. Where we are is you hide one sheet

48:28

of paper in 2000 sheets of paper that aren't

48:30

related. And that's your approach. Like that's where

48:32

we are. Sometimes it's

48:34

calculated, but like, at least it's often a little

48:36

more often. Probably it's just people trying to avoid doing

48:38

anything. Yeah, I appreciate

48:40

it. They can if they can check out the

48:43

sheet and say, well, it's not. Well, I personally

48:45

don't have it. Well, I guess I'm not doing

48:47

this. Cool. Done. Not my bigger. Yeah, it's not

48:49

my problem kind of thing more often than it

48:51

is like a shit. Let's make sure

48:53

it doesn't get out. Well, and I know you

48:55

were careful to say, oh, sorry, I was just going to say you were

48:57

careful to say that in this last season too,

48:59

where, you know, you start to be able to go down

49:02

the road of like, wait a minute, there's a reason that

49:04

this doesn't exist. There's a reason that this hasn't happened. And

49:07

you're always very pragmatic and are like, just

49:09

be clear. We're also not

49:11

saying that this is a huge conspiracy.

49:13

Like there's other very like plain other

49:15

reasons, bureaucratic reasons that stuff like this

49:17

can happen to or just laziness. Yeah.

49:21

And in my case, it's a new DA. This DA

49:23

has only been officer for a couple of years. This

49:25

case happened in 2001. Like there's a reason for anything.

49:27

And even through like

49:29

the trial transcripts, it doesn't really look like any,

49:31

like anything nefarious that happened didn't happen at the

49:33

DA's office. The only hiccup in the whole thing

49:36

is the lead detective

49:38

on the case who

49:42

may be responsible for this

49:44

potential wrongful conviction is

49:47

now the police chief and is the one that

49:49

is dealing with the DA and

49:51

all of this. Wait, the DA? No,

49:56

no, no, the detective was

49:58

really responsible for this. now

50:00

the chief of police. I got it. Yeah. That's

50:03

the one that, yeah, is now the one that they're, because

50:05

it's small town, you know, it's a smaller city. So the

50:07

one they're communicating with about this file.

50:10

So it's hard for me not to

50:12

be after 10 years of doing this a little jaded, like,

50:14

what are you guys up to? Like, well,

50:16

it's like, come on. Let's yeah.

50:20

Uh, let me buzz through here and see if there anything

50:22

else and we'll let you guys know. One

50:24

big one that we had from Grayson. He

50:27

wants to know. Do

50:29

you know what your next season of proof

50:31

will be and when can we expect it?

50:33

No, I said, back to

50:35

work. Back to work. Get

50:38

back to work. Take no. No,

50:41

we do not. Is

50:47

there going to be a season three approved? I

50:50

hope so. And we'll be working on it. Not

50:52

today. Girl, I understand. Yeah. Take

50:55

a fucking break. Take a breath. And

51:01

the last question I have for you, and I'll see if Jana has anything

51:03

else to ask, is I'm realizing now how long

51:05

it's been since you and I have talked. How's,

51:07

how's being a mom? Busy.

51:12

How old your son now? Daughter.

51:15

She's two. Oh, daughter's two years old. She's two. And

51:18

I learned that trying to do with interviews with

51:20

a two year old is more

51:22

problematic than I even imagined. And I

51:25

knew it would be problematic. But she's,

51:27

she definitely, if you can hear this really weird audio

51:29

in the season, there's two points you do. Like,

51:32

where you feel like a janky like, meh. And

51:34

it cuts off and suddenly goes to next word. That's

51:36

a two year old screaming. I

51:39

got edited out. Like,

51:42

meh. Cut the word out. Let's try

51:44

and pass it together. Do

51:48

you foresee any future siblings in her future?

51:53

That's the sibling. The sibling of season three

51:55

of proof. This is

51:57

my other child. Well,

52:01

Janice, do you have anything else? Your kids

52:03

take nine months to make, but Susan's podcast

52:05

takes way longer. Yeah, exactly. But then the

52:07

little fuckers stick around for like 20 years

52:09

after that. So do my podcast seasons. Right.

52:12

They're just accumulating. No,

52:14

I'm good. That

52:16

was my question was definitely the same as

52:18

Grayson's, but I... Grayson, I

52:20

wasn't brave enough to ask it because I knew that Susan

52:23

was just a bit... All

52:26

right. Well, with that being said, Susan, we would let you go.

52:28

Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us.

52:30

Thanks for having me. Good stuff again. Yeah,

52:32

you too. Great work. Both

52:35

of you can defer. If you see, definitely let me know. If

52:37

you're out your way, which I might be. I got the case

52:39

kind of that way. I'll take

52:41

you up, Bob. Yeah, for

52:43

sure. Let's catch up soon. All right. Thanks,

52:46

everybody, for listening. Thanks, everybody, in the live chat. And

52:48

we'll talk to you guys on Friday. Bye guys. Bye

52:51

guys. Bye.

53:29

Bye. Bye.

54:00

at patreon.com/truth and

54:02

justice If you join

54:04

our patreon, not only will you be financially supporting

54:07

our work. We also get something for your badge

54:09

Just five dollars per month You'll get

54:12

all episodes ad free and also a

54:14

video version of the Friday follow-ups and

54:16

include an hour-long pre-show chat exclusive to

54:19

our patrons Other levels will

54:21

get you a truth and justice army t-shirt

54:23

truth and justice hats and even the opportunity

54:25

to co-host a Friday follow-up Just

54:28

go to patreon.com Slash truth and

54:30

justice to sign up You

54:32

can also help us out by going to iTunes and

54:34

leaving us a five-star rating and review It

54:37

doesn't cost you a penny and it goes a long

54:39

way towards making the show more visible If

54:41

you have a case that you'd like us to

54:43

consider covering you can submit your cases on our

54:45

website truth and justice pod.com Just

54:48

click on the case submission button and fill out the form

54:51

And the most important thing that you can do

54:53

is engage in our investigations You can

54:55

keep in touch with us through our email

54:57

at theories at truth and justice pod.com You

55:00

can like our Facebook page follow us on

55:02

Instagram or join in on the conversation and

55:04

the truth and justice podcast band For

55:07

all of you tweeters out there. You can connect

55:09

with us on twitter at justice pod and I

55:11

can be found on social media at Bob Ruff

55:13

turn However, you do

55:15

it stay engaged stay in touch. But

55:18

as for now, I'm signing off You

55:31

With the Lucky Land Sluts, you can

55:33

get Lucky just about anywhere. This

55:35

is your captain speaking. We've got clear runway

55:37

and the weather's fine, but we're just gonna

55:40

circle up here a while and get Lucky.

55:42

don't know nothing like that. It's just these

55:44

cash prizes at up quick. So I I suggest you

55:46

you sit back, keep your tray table up

55:48

writing and start looking, Play

55:50

for free at luckylandslots.com. Are you

55:53

you feeling lucky? No purchase necessary.

55:55

void where prohibited by law law. 18

55:57

plus terms and conditions apply. See website

55:59

for detail. Judy was

56:01

boring. Hello. Then, Judy

56:04

discovered chumbacasino.com. It's my

56:06

little escape. Now Judy's the life of

56:08

the party. Oh baby, mama's bringing home the

56:10

bacon. Whoa, take it easy Judy. Ch-ch-ch-ch-chumba

56:14

The Chumba life is for everybody. So

56:16

go to chumbacasino.com and play over a

56:18

hundred casino style games. Join today and

56:21

play for free for your chance to

56:23

redeem some serious prizes. Ch-ch-ch-ch-chumba chumbacasino.com No

56:25

purchase necessary, void, or prohibited by law.

56:27

18 plus terms and conditions apply. Some

56:32

people just know there's a better way to do things,

56:35

like bundling your home and auto insurance

56:37

with Allstate, or going to the grocery

56:39

store for milk instead of buying your

56:41

own cow. You

56:44

know there's an easier and better way.

56:46

Save up to 25% when you bundle

56:49

home and auto with Allstate. Bundled

56:52

savings vary by state and are not available in every state. Saving up

56:54

to 25% is the countrywide average of

56:56

the maximum available savings off the home policy. Allstate

56:58

Vehicle and Property Insurance Company and affiliates Northbrook, Illinois.

57:03

Evolving education for a changing world.

57:05

Expand your career opportunities and earn

57:08

an MBA from University of Cincinnati

57:10

online Lindner College of Business. Designed

57:13

for busy professionals, UC Online MBA

57:15

is flexible, personalized, and supports students

57:17

from application all the way through

57:20

graduation. Get the world-class degree you

57:22

deserve without sacrificing work or family

57:25

commitments. Apply now at

57:27

online.uc.edu. MBA