0:00

Hi, I'm Lindsay.

0:04

And I'm Marshall. Welcome to Tumble, the show where

0:07

we explore stories of science discovery. Today

0:09

we're asking, what would the world

0:11

be like without animals? Well,

0:14

for starters, there would be no Shark Week. That's

0:16

for sure.

0:18

We're about to discover an Earth

0:20

without animal life and find

0:22

out how we can prevent animals

0:24

from disappearing around the world.

0:33

We're doing this episode in honor

0:35

of the Kids Podcast Party. Us and

0:37

a bunch of other kids podcasters are making episodes

0:40

to commemorate the 50th anniversary of

0:42

the Endangered Species Act. Check

0:44

out one of our favorite podcasts, Smash Boom

0:46

Best and their episode about capybaras

0:49

versus Komodo dragons. Which

0:51

I think I've got some ideas of which is cooler. Maybe.

0:54

But anyway, now on to the show.

0:59

Today's question comes from Tumble

1:01

listener, Lina. My

1:03

question is, what would the

1:05

world be like without animals? That's

1:09

a really good

1:09

question, because like there's lots of planets

1:11

that don't have any animals. All of

1:13

them that we know of, really, except for this one.

1:15

Yeah. So Lina has an idea

1:18

of what our planet would be like

1:20

without animals. It would be very

1:22

empty because humans are animals.

1:25

That's right. I mean,

1:27

there wouldn't even be anyone around to make

1:29

podcasts. That would be

1:32

sad. Unless somehow rocks

1:34

learn how to do it.

1:35

And they'll be like, this

1:37

podcast rocks. Well,

1:41

let's ask our listeners what

1:43

they think the world would be like without

1:45

animals. And just to keep ourselves

1:48

grounded in reality, let's add in

1:50

this question. How do you think we can

1:52

keep animals on the planet? Think

1:55

about it. And we'll be back with the

1:57

scientist who's working to stop animals.

1:59

disappearing.

2:04

To help answer Nina's question, I

2:06

called up Ray Windbrand, an ecologist.

2:10

I study large mammals

2:13

like mountain lions and bears

2:15

and even African lions. And I

2:18

learn about how they use their

2:20

environment. And I gather that

2:22

information and look for patterns and

2:24

trends and then use that

2:26

to make sure that we're protecting these

2:28

animals

2:28

the way that they need to be protected.

2:31

That's a pretty amazing

2:34

job.

2:34

But I haven't even

2:37

told you the coolest part because

2:39

Ray also gets to cuddle

2:41

baby bear cubs. By

2:44

far the best part of my job is

2:46

cuddling bear cubs. There

2:47

is nothing better than that. I

2:49

hope that lots of people would love to have a job that involves

2:52

cuddling furry babies. Is

2:56

she officially a cuddleologist?

2:58

Well, it's not

3:00

her whole job, but Ray

3:02

studies big animals with

3:04

sharp teeth, including North

3:07

American black bears. And

3:09

so part of studying these bears is doing a checkup

3:12

while they're hibernating and taking the

3:15

babies out of the den away from their mom

3:17

for like five or 10 minutes

3:20

while the momma bear gets her checkup.

3:22

Okay. So she's like the bear version of the toy

3:24

table at the doctor's office. Yeah.

3:27

A couple of years ago, I saw a video

3:29

of Ray cuddling two black

3:31

bear cubs into her jacket, like two

3:34

twin babies. We actually

3:37

stuffed the baby bears into her jacket

3:39

to keep them warm because they've never experienced

3:42

the cold before. They've always been cozy in a den

3:44

and we don't want them to start losing

3:46

their body

3:47

temperature. Okay. So

3:49

it's not like she just has to cuddle them

3:51

like little teddy bears. She has to. We're

3:54

just holding

3:54

them, tighten our jackets. But

3:56

it's for science. And racist

3:59

science is actually. the only

4:01

reason to cuddle bear cubs.

4:03

Don't do it at home, no. Only if you're

4:05

a trained biologist, but let me tell you,

4:07

being a trained biologist is

4:09

the best reward.

4:11

Science, adding to humanity's body

4:13

of knowledge about the universe,

4:15

and also giving people an excuse to cuddle

4:17

cute animals. Okay,

4:20

but let's get to the real reason I wanted

4:22

to talk to Ray, although I definitely

4:24

wanted

4:25

to talk to her about the bear cubs. Obviously.

4:27

I thought Ray would be great

4:29

to answer Lina's question about a world

4:32

without animals, because she's

4:35

also a podcaster and TV

4:37

presenter who travels the globe

4:39

to talk about the importance of

4:41

protecting animals.

4:43

So what does she say the world would be like without animals?

4:46

Well, Ray said Lina was on

4:48

to something with her answer about humans

4:50

being animals. Lina

4:53

kind of took the words out of my mouth. The first thing

4:55

I was going to respond

4:57

with is that humans are animals

4:59

too. And she says that

5:02

would make knowing what the world would be like

5:04

kind of difficult. So

5:07

in one way, we

5:08

don't know what the world would look like

5:10

if we wouldn't even be there to see it. So

5:12

it's us, it would just look like nothing because

5:15

we wouldn't see anything because we wouldn't be

5:17

here.

5:18

And honestly, the world didn't

5:21

look like that when we

5:22

weren't around to see it. So

5:25

let me say this, Lina, since

5:27

the planet Earth began, there have

5:30

been periods where there were no animals.

5:33

So it has happened before. Right,

5:36

so there was a time before animals

5:37

existed.

5:38

Yeah, animal life took

5:41

a really long time to evolve on

5:43

our planet. And when it did, Earth

5:45

became home to many ecosystems,

5:48

food webs of animals and

5:50

plants connected to environments that

5:52

depend on each other. But

5:54

there have been big periods of

5:56

extinction when most of life

5:59

disappeared.

5:59

Like when the asteroid hit that

6:02

killed all the dinosaurs.

6:03

Exactly. So that's how Ray

6:05

knows what would happen if animals disappeared

6:08

now.

6:09

I think if every animal

6:11

disappeared just right away all of a sudden,

6:14

then we would have what we call a trophic

6:17

cascade. What does a

6:20

trophic cascade mean? That's a pretty

6:22

complicated phrase. It means

6:24

that the food web would fall apart. Oh

6:27

no. Aren't we like hanging out on the

6:30

food web? Do we want it to fall apart underneath

6:32

us? We do

6:33

not. So Ray gave an example

6:36

of how a healthy food web

6:38

should work. Starting with her

6:40

favorite carnivores. Like

6:42

maybe a grizzly bear, to eat herbivores,

6:45

like a deer. We need those herbivores

6:47

to eat vegetation like grass.

6:50

The effects of the food web continue,

6:53

or cascade, down to countless

6:56

other plant and animal species. We

6:58

need the vegetation to

7:01

grow a certain amount of roots,

7:03

not too few, not too many, to take

7:06

care of the soil. And then if the soil

7:08

is taken care of, then all of our waterways,

7:10

all of our streams and rivers flow properly.

7:13

So basically if there weren't any bears, the

7:16

water supply would get messed up?

7:18

Exactly. So we

7:20

would have a lot of problems if animals

7:22

disappeared all of a sudden. A lot of

7:24

things would kind of collapse. But

7:28

if it was a slow process

7:30

over millions and millions of

7:32

years, something tells me the Earth

7:34

might start looking like it did many millions

7:37

of years ago.

7:38

So like a gradual emptying out

7:40

until it becomes like a hot wet mess?

7:42

Something like that. And ecologists

7:44

like Ray are concerned about these

7:46

trophic cascades because sometimes

7:49

animals do disappear or go

7:51

extinct. When we think about a

7:53

world without animals these days,

7:56

it's usually because humans have made so

7:58

many changes to the world. are environments

8:01

that some animals really can't handle

8:03

it. And one of the main

8:05

ways that humans have changed things is

8:08

by changing the land. Does

8:10

she mean like changing the land by

8:12

building houses and roads and other things

8:14

that are just for humans that animals can't

8:17

also have like my cookies? Exactly.

8:19

And

8:20

we do need roads and

8:22

houses. They're part of our built

8:24

environment, but building

8:26

has an effect on other animals'

8:29

habitats. I think one

8:31

easy way to think about it is with birds.

8:34

Most birds need to build nests

8:36

in trees,

8:37

and when there's tons of forests

8:39

just all over the place, they usually

8:42

don't have a problem. But when we cut

8:44

a highway through the forest or

8:46

when we build a new neighborhood

8:50

in a forest, that really

8:52

changes how many trees are available

8:54

for these birds. So

8:55

less forest land means fewer

8:58

trees. Makes sense. And fewer

9:00

trees means fewer nests and fewer

9:02

eggs. I think I can see where this is going.

9:05

And so that means every year we have

9:07

fewer and fewer of these

9:09

birds and eventually we might not have

9:12

any. That's

9:13

really too bad. I like birds.

9:15

Me too. So the

9:17

good news is that people can step

9:20

in and help save

9:21

species before they're gone. We'll

9:23

find out how after this quick break.

9:34

Support for this episode of Tumble comes from Santiago

9:36

Saw Things Differently. This nonfiction

9:39

picture book introduces kids to Santiago

9:41

Ramónica, a Spanish scientist

9:43

and artist who made a crucial discovery about

9:46

how our nervous systems work and won the

9:48

Nobel Prize in 1906 and

9:50

also has a street named Apturman Barcelona

9:52

that you can go check out. Cajal's true

9:54

story demonstrates that science and art

9:56

can work together towards discovery, inspiring

9:59

readers to

9:59

Think Outside the Box, just like Santiago

10:02

did. Written by Christine Iverson

10:04

and illustrated by Luciano Lozano,

10:06

and published by MIT Kids Press, Santiago

10:09

Sothings Differently is available now wherever

10:12

you buy your books. Thanks for watching!

10:18

We're

10:43

back! So we've learned what the world looked

10:45

like without animals, and what might happen if

10:47

animals now on the planet disappeared.

11:00

Like ghosts in the night, or

11:02

like species whose habitats have been built over.

11:05

Right.

11:05

Ray gave the example of birds

11:08

losing their trees, and to find out

11:10

how to save a species, she mentioned

11:12

a very special kind of

11:14

bird. Bald eagles were

11:17

once on the endangered species list. When I

11:19

was a kid, they were endangered, and

11:21

groups of people got together and made a plan for

11:24

how to bring them back,

11:25

and it worked. Yeah, for those of us who live in

11:27

the United States, the bald eagle is kind of a

11:29

big deal.

11:31

It's kind of a big bird deal. It's

11:33

a national symbol. It's like if the

11:35

flag was an animal, it was

11:37

a piece of bald eagle. They're

11:40

like very determined looking birds,

11:43

and they have dark brown feathers on their

11:45

bodies, but white feathers on their

11:47

heads, which gives them

11:48

the look of being bald. I mean, when

11:50

I was a kid growing up, I saw lots of videos

11:53

of bald eagles and stuff, but I never

11:55

saw one in real life, and now I see them

11:58

all the time. You're like...

13:53

list

14:00

and to create that plan. And one

14:03

of the hardest parts is actually

14:05

getting other humans on board. The

14:08

Endangered Species Act isn't always everyone's

14:11

favorite

14:11

thing. But why not? Don't

14:13

we all want to protect bald eagles? And

14:16

others.

14:16

Well it means that people

14:19

have to change the way they interact

14:21

with that animal's

14:22

environment. Let's

14:24

keep going with the bird example. Sometimes

14:26

scientists and policymakers and

14:29

community members will realize the

14:31

only way to bring this bird

14:34

back to a healthy population

14:36

is to just

14:38

leave its forest alone. And

14:40

that means humans can't use

14:43

the

14:43

forest anymore. No

14:45

hiking in there, no camping

14:47

in there, no taking

14:49

your dogs through there, no building

14:51

through there, no making

14:54

houses and homes and apartment buildings.

14:56

Yeah I mean I guess a lot of people want

14:58

to move to forests. They're pretty. It's nice to

15:00

live there.

15:00

And there might already be people

15:03

living there. And that can be tough

15:05

for some people because what if that forest

15:07

is in your backyard or what if the forest

15:09

is in your yard? And all

15:12

of a sudden the government says hey

15:14

this is an endangered species that lives

15:16

here in your backyard. So now

15:18

you're not going to be able to make any changes

15:21

because we're going to protect this animal.

15:23

I can see how that would be really frustrating like if

15:26

you want to build a shed or something to store all your

15:28

tools or mow your lawn in a different way.

15:30

Yeah

15:30

definitely. But like

15:33

Lena said people are animals

15:35

too and healthy ecosystems

15:38

ultimately benefit all of us who

15:40

live on the planet. So my

15:42

hope is that for the next 50 years

15:45

of the Endangered Species Act we

15:47

can work together better to find

15:49

solutions that actually work for everybody.

15:51

That work for people and

15:54

that work for the animals

15:55

we're trying to protect.

15:56

And Ray says that's why she's passionate

15:59

about studying. animals. She collects

16:02

valuable information to create

16:04

good solutions for both people

16:07

and animals. And I

16:09

found that once I realized that I could

16:11

use science right away to make change or

16:14

to influence policy

16:16

or to make a suggestion or a recommendation,

16:18

I realized that was the right fit

16:20

for me. That's

16:21

really cool. Like, you know, a lot of times

16:24

on our show, we've talked about scientists who study

16:26

animals just because they're curious about how

16:28

butts came to be or something like that, which is

16:30

great. But you know, you can also do science

16:32

that really solves real problems

16:35

out in the world. And I think that's great, too.

16:38

So there's all kinds of ways that

16:40

you can be a scientist or use your

16:43

science. And they're all very useful.

16:45

So in Ray's kind of being a scientist, you

16:47

can solve real problems while just cuddling

16:50

baby furry things. It's

16:51

the best of both worlds. And

16:54

speaking of possible worlds, I

16:56

asked Ray what advice she'll have for Lena

16:59

in imagining a world

17:01

without animals.

17:03

So Lena, I would say

17:05

that rather than imagining

17:07

what the world would be like

17:08

without animals, because

17:11

I don't think it would be a world that we

17:12

want to see or live in, we

17:15

can imagine what the world might be like

17:18

that is better for animals. And

17:20

that includes human animals.

17:23

We human animals have to work

17:25

to make that better

17:26

world.

17:27

I truly believe that every day we're getting

17:29

there, we might not be able to see the changes

17:32

day by day. But there's so many people

17:34

who care. So many animals

17:36

who care too. And science is

17:38

helping us understand what's happening

17:40

to animals and how we can help

17:43

know what doesn't work. We know that

17:45

pollution is bad. We know that climate

17:48

change is creating harm. So

17:50

many of us out there who are working to

17:52

make positive change. And that's what

17:54

you're trying to envision. And I hope you will

17:56

too.

17:59

You can envision a positive

18:02

future with Ray by creating your

18:04

own plan to save animals.

18:06

Think about an animal that you think might

18:08

need saving. Maybe it's an animal that you

18:10

used to see a lot in your neighborhood, but you're not seeing

18:12

as often anymore. Or you could think about a favorite

18:15

animal that you might already know a lot about.

18:17

What do you think you might need

18:19

to know in order to create

18:21

a recovery plan? Think about

18:24

what might be affecting the animal's

18:26

habitat and what would need to change

18:28

to provide animals with what they need

18:30

to live and have babies.

18:32

You can write down your plan or illustrate

18:34

it with photos and pictures. If you do,

18:37

we'd love to see it. Send it to us at tumblepodcasts

18:39

at gmail.com.

18:41

Thanks today to Dr. Ray Winn-Grant,

18:44

large carnivore ecologist and

18:46

host of the PBS Nature podcast,

18:49

Going Wild with Ray Winn-Grant.

18:52

It's a podcast for adults.

18:54

You can hear more from our interview with Ray

18:56

on the bonus interview episode on our Patreon

18:58

at patreon.com slash tumblepodcasts.

19:00

And we have free resources

19:03

to learn more about endangered species,

19:05

including how you can look up animals

19:08

on the endangered species list in

19:10

every U.S. state. I did it

19:12

and it was really interesting what I

19:14

found. You can also find out

19:16

what are the globally

19:17

endangered species.

19:19

All on the blog on our website, sciencepodcastsfortids.com.

19:23

Sarah Roberson-Lentz edited

19:25

the show and designed the episode art. Elliot

19:28

Hajaj is our production assistant and Gary

19:30

Calhoun-James engineered and mixed this

19:32

episode.

19:33

I'm Lindsay Patterson and I wrote this

19:35

episode.

19:35

I'm Marshall Escamilla and I made all

19:38

the music and sound design for this episode. Tumble

19:40

is a production of Tumble Media. Thanks

19:42

for listening and stay tuned for more stories

19:45

of science discovery.

19:48

All right, everybody, it's the

19:50

end of the episode and we all know what that means. It's

19:53

time for Patreon, people. We got a bunch

19:55

of birthday shoutouts to give, so here we go.

19:58

Happy birthday to Dexter Helmuth on November... 13th.

20:01

Mama and Papa can't wait for another year of adventures.

20:03

They love you very much. And

20:05

to Desi and Cordy, happy birthday on November

20:08

13th as well. Mama and Papa can't

20:10

wait for another year of adventures with you. Bodhi,

20:13

happy birthday on November 15th. Mom

20:15

and Dad hope you always love learning new things

20:18

and they love you very much. Abdullah,

20:20

happy birthday on November 16th. Keep being

20:22

curious and exploring. Ren,

20:25

your love for nature inspires us every

20:27

day with love from Mom and Dad on

20:29

your birthday on November 16th. Nick,

20:32

Mom and Dad love you and happy birthday on November

20:34

18th. Nathan, Mom

20:36

and Dad love you so much to their soccer

20:38

player who loves science, monsters and

20:40

wild animals. There's a lot of overlap between those

20:42

last two. Please keep asking thoughtful

20:45

questions about the world and happy birthday on

20:47

November 19th. Brooke, Mom

20:49

and Dad love their curious nugget. Never

20:52

lose your butt why and keep tinkering.

20:54

Happy birthday on November 19th. And a

20:56

happy birthday on November 20th to Mateo

20:59

Rex, the true king of the dinosaurs.

21:01

Thank you for sharing your knowledge with everyone.

21:03

Always cheering for you, Papa, Mama and

21:06

Ray. And Daniel, happy

21:08

birthday on November 23rd with lots

21:10

of love from Mom and Dad. Thanks

21:13

to all of you and to everyone who supports Tumble

21:15

on Patreon. If you want to get a birthday shout

21:17

out of your own like these fine folks,

21:19

simply support Tumble on Patreon at the $5 level

21:22

or higher by going to patreon.com slash

21:24

tumble podcast. Once again, that's

21:26

patreon.com slash tumble podcast.