0:00

You're listening to a podcast

0:02

by the for Action and Contemplation.

0:04

To learn more, visit cac

0:06

.org. Hello, everyone. this

0:08

is Kirsten Oates, and I'm

0:11

here with James Finley, we

0:13

want to invite you to

0:15

join us for the Turning to

0:17

the Mystics virtual retreat, December 5 -8.

0:20

Over the course of those four

0:22

days, we'll be engaging in an

0:24

interior pilgrimage, mirroring the

0:26

journey laid out in the

0:28

19th century Russian text, The Way

0:30

of a Pilgrim. in

0:32

kind of wondering what you might expect

0:34

in being on this retreat. My

0:37

hope for you would be be insights.

0:42

that you to realize already on

0:44

this path. of longing.

0:47

And also you might receive guidance on

0:49

how to be true to it. and

0:52

follow it, because it's very subtle,

0:54

because it's interior, it's in our heart.

0:57

So would hope there would be encouragement. and

1:00

a sense of guidance and

1:02

inner clarity about this

1:04

path and how to be true to it.

1:07

to surrender to the path is to to God.

1:10

because finds his way to the realm of the

1:12

heart. And the realm of

1:14

the heart is that place where our life

1:16

and God's life are one. And

1:19

how do we find our way to that oneness

1:21

is hidden deep within us? in

1:23

an experiential way. and

1:25

learn to live by it and share it with

1:27

other people day day. So

1:30

look forward to our time together. prayerfully

1:32

of walking to these insights about

1:34

God's oneness with us in life

1:36

itself. If

1:38

you'd like to join us,

1:41

please head to cac .org

1:43

forward retreat to register. We

1:46

hope to see you there. Greetings.

1:50

I'm Jim Finley.

1:53

And I'm Kirsten Oates. Welcome.

1:56

to to the Mistakes. Hi

2:05

Hi everyone, this is Kirsten here. And

2:08

this is a very special episode of

2:10

Turning to the Mystics and something we haven't

2:12

done before. So I thought

2:14

it would be helpful to start with a bit

2:16

of context before we officially dive in. In

2:20

season nine, we explored the way of

2:22

a pilgrim by an anonymous author.

2:24

And that book narrates the journey

2:26

of a pilgrim in the

2:28

Russian Orthodox tradition, following the universal

2:30

path of spiritual awakening. As

2:33

part of that season, we

2:35

invited listeners to share their own

2:38

stories of interior pilgrimage, reflecting

2:40

on how their experiences resonated

2:42

with the journey. It's

2:44

hard to share how grateful we are

2:47

for the stories we received. We received

2:49

so many incredible stories from our listeners. And

2:52

And we don't have time to share them all

2:54

in this episode. Jim and

2:56

I in the team read each one and

2:58

deeply touched. In

3:01

this episode, Jim and I will lightly

3:03

touch on core themes from the way

3:05

of a pilgrim. and then you'll

3:07

hear a story or two from our listeners

3:09

that relate to the theme. Jim

3:11

goes into a lot of details on

3:14

these themes in season nine. So if

3:16

you want to hear more on the

3:18

themes themselves, please take a listen to season

3:20

nine. The stories

3:22

will be shared by our listeners in their

3:24

own voices. and we thank

3:26

them for being a part of our community. and

3:29

for sharing themselves so vulnerably with

3:31

us here. So So let's

3:33

get started. Welcome

3:39

Welcome everyone this bonus episode

3:41

of Turning to Mystics. And

3:43

I'm here with Jim and

3:45

we're excited to share these stories

3:47

of pilgrimage. Welcome, Jim. Yes,

3:50

yes. it's such a grace to

3:52

be able to listen to the people

3:54

listening to us, and we can all be

3:56

together like this on this path. So it's, yeah,

3:58

it's wonderful. Yeah. really wonderful. So

4:01

Jim, you just wanted to share some

4:03

opening statements before we get started. Yes.

4:07

You know, was really moved

4:09

in reading these stories

4:11

of awakening. And I was

4:13

moved because when Kirsten

4:16

organized your responses into themes,

4:19

these themes are the very, If we

4:21

listened to all the mystics turning

4:23

to the mystic series and we

4:26

would color code these themes and color

4:28

code them in the mystics, the

4:30

same themes that the mystics are

4:32

talking about. And so it of bears

4:34

witness that we found our way

4:36

into the interiority of the

4:38

divinity of our lives that

4:41

the mystics invite us to

4:43

discover. So it's encouraging, it's

4:45

lovely. Yes, wonderful. And

4:47

so for the episode today,

4:49

Jim, you're going to reflect on

4:51

each of these core themes

4:53

and then we'll hear from our

4:55

listeners some stories that relate

4:57

to the theme. Before we turn

4:59

to our first theme though,

5:02

we have an opening poem and

5:04

we chose this poem because

5:06

it reminded me when I read

5:08

it of what you share

5:10

often about how wonderful it would

5:12

be to have all our

5:14

listeners sitting in a circle. together

5:16

and sharing about our lives. And I

5:18

wonder if you'd just reflect on

5:20

that. vision for us. Yes,

5:23

You know, having a silent contemplative

5:25

retreats for 30 years, mainly in

5:27

the United States and Canada, but

5:29

in Europe also. I'm

5:32

so struck by the fact that each

5:34

time we sit in silence alone in

5:36

our home, we're not alone because we're

5:38

sitting with people all over the world

5:40

who are sitting. this way.

5:42

It's like a contemplative community

5:44

that's all over the world. And

5:46

so that's what I sensed

5:48

in this, like a liturgical richness

5:50

to this oneness that we're

5:52

sharing with God's oneness with us.

5:54

It's a lovely poem. It's

5:56

beautiful. Wonderful, so

5:59

let's listen to the power. poem. My

6:14

name is Fleming Conley and

6:16

the name of this poem is

6:18

A Seat at the Table. The

6:31

celestial choir sings

6:33

as frankincense burns.

6:37

I bid you welcome. I

6:40

am the greeter at the table. The

6:43

table is infinitely long and

6:45

your seat has been held for

6:48

you for lifetimes. It

6:50

is yours. The

6:52

goblet passed from

6:54

hand to hand is

6:56

everlasting, always full. The

6:59

liquid is nourishing, yet no

7:01

drop passes your lips. Sit.

7:05

Look around you.

7:07

See who is here.

7:10

Lean forward and look down

7:13

the table. Is that Jesus? Is

7:16

it Buddha? Who

7:18

holds your heart? Whom

7:20

do you seek? Together,

7:23

the illumined sit here.

7:25

There is much laughter

7:27

and deep and abiding

7:29

bliss. You

7:32

sit in the company of those

7:34

who will steer you, who will

7:36

take your hand and lead you.

7:38

It is your time. You have

7:40

earned this seat at the table.

7:44

Everyone is here for you,

7:46

and right now, only you. Soon,

7:49

you will become accustomed

7:51

to the conversation, the drink,

7:54

the laughter, and the brilliance. At

7:57

that time, you will seek others

7:59

to join you at the table and

8:02

reach out to offer a helping

8:04

hand. You

8:06

will become a greeter. I

8:08

know you will, helping

8:10

those new to

8:12

the table to feel

8:14

comfortable with the

8:17

luminosity of sitting with

8:19

divinity. So

8:33

first theme we're going to be

8:35

reflecting on on is the

8:37

way the pilgrim was quickened and

8:40

this idea of being quickened by

8:42

God in our lives. Yes.

8:44

so the story starts out

8:46

with the pilgrims quickening. So

8:48

he's a church the 24th after

8:50

Pentecost, and there's a text.

8:53

And the text quickens him, that is,

8:55

it opens him up in a way

8:57

that he didn't see coming. And

8:59

so it gives a deeper meaning to him

9:02

being a pilgrim. So So each of us,

9:04

I think, too, if we would

9:06

look back, see, how has it come to

9:08

pass that each of us has come to

9:10

be the man or or woman able

9:12

of being touched by these things? And

9:15

if we look back, is it not true?

9:17

We can look back and it was an

9:19

unforeseeable quickening. in your life. Maybe

9:22

a number of them, actually. And

9:24

so it's like bearing witness. I will

9:26

not play this cynic. I will not

9:28

doubt my awakening heart. And so we we

9:30

to the quickening. this way.

9:32

And that's what I think is

9:35

so significant about this. And

9:39

now we have two beautiful stories of

9:41

quickening to listen to. to. The

9:43

first is from Nanette, who who was quickened

9:45

by the words of Saint Francis. And

9:48

the second is from David, who

9:50

was quickened while overlooking the beach in

9:52

Cornwall, England. This

10:00

is Nanette from Louisiana. you

10:03

In 2015, I was invited

10:05

by my husband to

10:07

accompany him on an 11

10:09

-day pilgrimage to Paris, Rome,

10:11

and Assisi to follow

10:13

in the footsteps of St.

10:15

Francis. During

10:19

our first lecture by

10:21

Sister Marie, an American

10:23

Franciscan, I heard these

10:25

words and it began

10:27

to see things differently. You

10:31

It was during the time of

10:33

our daily reflections with others

10:35

that I heard in my heart.

10:37

Again, these words. he

10:39

began to see things differently and

10:41

apply it to my own

10:43

spiritual life. You I

10:45

considered this experience a conversion,

10:48

a turning point. I saw

10:50

through this opening a way

10:52

to begin to know that

10:54

God was accessing me. I

10:57

understood the truth that even

10:59

with all of my past struggles

11:02

God did love me. He

11:05

gave me the grace to see others

11:07

as he sawed them. using

11:10

St. Francis' life of

11:12

love as a profound

11:14

example for me. Hi,

11:20

Hi, this is David from West

11:22

Oxfordshire in England. I'd

11:25

like to share an experience that

11:27

I had while sitting at a beach

11:29

cafe in Cornwall, England. As

11:32

I sat at a table that morning,

11:34

waiting for my wife to get us

11:36

a coffee, I had what I can

11:38

only describe as an epiphany. It

11:41

was a beautiful, sunny, warm October

11:44

day. There were mums with their toddlers

11:46

on the beach and a PE

11:48

lesson taking place in the sea with

11:50

some primary school children. All

11:53

of a sudden, I had this overwhelming

11:55

sense of God's presence. and

11:57

his love for all of these people. It

12:00

was as if heaven opened

12:02

up and God's love descended

12:04

and embraced each of us.

12:06

We were all part of

12:08

His family. It

12:10

was an experience that words fail

12:12

to accurately describe. It brought such

12:14

joy and peace to my spirit

12:16

that I sat there basking in

12:18

the glory of it all. Wow,

12:21

wow, wow is all that

12:23

I can say. I didn't

12:26

want it to end. But

12:28

my coffee arrived. and it

12:30

was as if the spell was The

12:47

next theme we're going to

12:49

touch on is the longing

12:51

that arises after the quickening. Yes,

12:54

you know my sense of this

12:56

is I think everyone experiences moments

12:58

of quickening. the of

13:00

nature, intimacy with children, service

13:02

to the community, art, poetry,

13:04

solitude, silence. I think we

13:06

all have these like the

13:08

sense of oneness or the

13:10

sacredness of the immediacy of

13:13

our lives. But what

13:15

isn't universal is the longing

13:17

to abide there. So

13:19

having tasted the oneness.

13:22

Then there's the gift of the

13:24

longing to be ever more

13:26

habitually established in that oneness, which

13:29

is the longing which is

13:31

an echo of God's longing for

13:33

us and And sets us

13:35

on this path this archetypal journey

13:37

to consummate this longing And

13:41

in your teaching about the longing, you mentioned

13:43

how it asked something out of us and

13:45

it asked something out of the pilgrim. Can

13:47

you talk a little bit about that? Yes,

13:50

that the longing asked of

13:52

me. that

13:55

I seek to

13:57

turn towards. and

13:59

rest in the law. which is an echo

14:01

of God's longing for me. And

14:04

so it asked me a kind of obediential

14:06

fidelity. to

14:08

be attentive and faithful to the longings

14:10

of my own heart. And

14:13

the monastery, in Closet of Monasteries,

14:15

everything about the life was designed

14:17

to protect this. Out here

14:19

in the world is not like this, really.

14:21

And so really requires a certain

14:24

kind of fidelity to a daily rendezvous

14:26

or quiet time to be be faithful

14:28

because it's so subtle and it's

14:30

so delicate if we're not careful, know,

14:33

walk right right past it. So it

14:35

requires us us of a refinement

14:37

of the sensitivities of our

14:39

awakening. into to lean into it and follow

14:41

it see where it takes us, and to what God

14:43

has in mind. We

14:46

have one story related to longing

14:48

listen to. and and it

14:50

comes from Elizabeth. who

14:52

shares her experience of great loss.

14:55

and expressed her deep longing for

14:57

God as a cry for help,

14:59

to abide in a profound gift

15:01

she received from her son. This

15:08

is Elizabeth coming in

15:10

Lexington, Kentucky. Our

15:13

son Mack died suddenly of

15:15

a blood infection two weeks shy

15:17

of his ninth birthday on

15:19

New Year's Eve 2012. The

15:22

suddenness of his death left

15:24

us and all who loved Mack in

15:26

utter shock. It felt

15:29

like being tossed through a

15:31

threshold into a bewildering

15:33

altered reality where looked the

15:35

same, but everything had changed.

15:38

I was cut to the core,

15:40

but also keenly aware of

15:42

our then 15-year-old daughter -old daughter, and

15:45

determined not to lose both children,

15:47

children, one from a blood

15:49

infection and the other grief. my

15:51

grief. In the night

15:53

after Mack died, heard I heard him clearly. brief. It

15:56

was brief. Mom, he roused

15:58

me. me. Mom! I

16:01

have forgotten it. More

16:03

than eleven years on, it has

16:05

seared me. Something Something

16:07

in me, a kind of

16:09

awareness, a newness. Even

16:12

when I felt suffocated in the

16:14

despair, I was swimming in. in, Something

16:16

else, as Rokey said, entered

16:19

in. I came to

16:21

my desk the next morning

16:23

at dawn my coffee to and pray

16:25

as I had done my

16:27

whole adult life. But But morning

16:29

was different. said to

16:32

God please me. I heard

16:34

from Mac. I sensed presence. I

16:37

don't want to dismiss or

16:39

ignore these experiences. I

16:41

don't understand them, I don't

16:43

want to be afraid of my

16:45

own life. Teach

16:47

me. guide me, help me.

16:51

These of new life that grew up

16:53

in the ash of Mac's death were difficult

16:55

to explain to others. I

16:58

went searching for teachers and found

17:00

my way to Sister Joan Chittister by

17:03

of a quote from Hildegard

17:05

of Bingen and then to

17:07

CAC. Over these years

17:09

I have come to realize that

17:11

all I was searching for

17:13

Mac, God was

17:15

searching for the whole of me. So

17:26

the next theme, Jim, that

17:29

we want to touch on

17:31

is the teacher the path. You

17:34

know when we've been awakened this,

17:36

drawn by this longing. it

17:38

can feel very lonely. because

17:41

it's so hard to find anyone

17:43

who even knows how to talk about

17:45

it. we can think maybe

17:47

we're going a little crazy, like we're different

17:49

this way. And so what

17:51

we're looking for then is can

17:53

I find somebody well -seasoned in

17:55

such things? See, this is

17:57

what the pilgrim discovered. He keeps seeking.

18:00

different strategies. And

18:02

And this is where it's so exciting to find

18:04

the mystics, because when we

18:06

read the mystics like the pilgrim, you can

18:08

tell the pilgrims talking about about what's happening

18:10

to you. And so that's what

18:12

we're looking for. And this is why I

18:14

also noticed all these mystics, you know the

18:16

pilgrim has been dead for some time

18:18

now, but the deathless presence of the

18:21

pilgrim is still talking to us

18:23

and guiding us as our teacher. And

18:25

that's the intimacy of it. And

18:27

what was amazing about the

18:29

pilgrim's discovery of the teacher is

18:32

was in the presence of the teacher

18:34

before he was able to to the teacher.

18:36

This is true. And I think that's

18:38

often true too. So for example, when

18:40

we first read a mystic, we

18:43

can tell it's beautiful, but it's not

18:45

an easy read. And we

18:47

don't realize it, but we're being invited

18:49

to slow down and get very

18:51

quiet and patient to discover it.

18:53

On a broader scale, what happens

18:55

later, I think, as we

18:57

find our way to this teaching, to this

18:59

teaching, is we realize there is no lack

19:01

of the teaching being given. given. only

19:03

the lack of the awareness of the

19:05

teaching that's always there, because the

19:07

people we live with and the situations

19:09

of our life is the teaching, like life

19:11

is our our like God is present

19:13

present incarnate in the unfolding of our

19:15

life. And this is why we

19:17

see in the pilgrim how the teacher

19:19

guides him along the path and and it radicalizes

19:21

sensitivity to everyone he meets on

19:23

the road. Yeah,

19:26

so Jim, will you talk a little bit

19:28

more about the path that the pilgrim

19:30

discovered through the teacher? Yes,

19:32

I think the path first, it

19:34

starts out first of a

19:36

path to devotional sincerity. And

19:38

the path the pilgrim was already on. He

19:41

was a church at Liturgy, He was praying. And

19:44

so the prayer would be Liturgy,

19:46

Lectio Divina, Spirit Meditations,

19:48

and Prayer desire. But

19:51

now But is something where touched

19:54

by something that's somehow

19:56

qualitatively a deeper place. It

19:59

might flow. It might flow over our thoughts,

20:01

like our meditation, but

20:03

it transcends thought. It

20:06

might flow over into our

20:08

aspirations and desires to be more

20:11

loving, more Christlike, but it overflows

20:13

our desire because it's God's infinite desire

20:15

for us stirring in us. And

20:18

so He has to pass beyond

20:20

the boundaries of His own abilities and

20:22

His own reflection. And so

20:24

the path then that's laid out for him is

20:26

how do we do that? And

20:28

so the teacher then is someone who's

20:30

immersed in an ancient lineage down through

20:32

the lineage. he's really sitting in

20:34

fidelity to the lineage of a

20:36

heritage that goes back for

20:38

centuries And so we

20:40

listen, we're being touched by that lineage. When

20:44

I was in the monastery, this

20:46

is a Cistercian order in the Roman tradition, Thomas

20:48

Merton, saw him as a living

20:50

mystic. And so when he

20:52

led me to John the Cross and Teresa of the

20:54

apple of the pilgrim, saw he was

20:56

introducing me to the which is a living lineage

20:58

that lived in him. Then I might

21:00

sit with him and and might live in

21:03

me. And that's what's so moving about these

21:05

stories. We

21:07

have two lovely stories to listen

21:09

to on the and the path, the

21:11

first from Catherine the second from Brian. both

21:14

find their teachers and their path

21:16

in quite an unexpected way. This

21:23

is Catherine from New Zealand. It

21:28

is years ago when I

21:30

find myself looking to deepen

21:32

my relationship with God through

21:34

the writings of Christian contemplatives. One

21:38

day, The long -held yearning finds

21:41

its voice and I say to

21:43

God, it would be good

21:45

if I had an actual teacher in my

21:47

life who can answer all my questions. Immediately

21:52

there is a distinct

21:54

impression, which comes

21:56

almost as a a memory of something.

21:59

someone with knowledge of the

22:01

spiritual life who can help me.

22:05

Within weeks, I start

22:07

to hear the increasingly

22:10

insistent thought, which comes from

22:12

the deepest depths, get

22:15

ready. I

22:18

have no idea what to get

22:20

ready for, but I start to wonder

22:22

if I might be about to die.

22:27

Wanting to somehow prepare myself,

22:29

I turn to yoga

22:31

and meditation classes. I

22:35

am in my third session, when

22:37

there is some comment from the

22:39

teacher. So small

22:41

as to be insignificant, but

22:45

with it comes sudden

22:47

and absolute recognition. The

22:49

person in front of me is

22:51

the very same one who came

22:54

to mind in prayer. I

22:56

am taken by surprise. I

23:00

was certainly not expecting

23:02

this Buddhist yogi teacher, but

23:05

here she is. This

23:15

This is Brian Texas. Well

23:19

the middle part of my life, I had

23:21

come to a point of spiritual and mental on

23:23

we. Finding little to

23:25

no solace in the Christian practices

23:27

that had once me, I

23:29

started practicing Zen at a local

23:31

Zen center. In some

23:33

ways, practice was perfect for this

23:36

time in my life. It

23:38

was a way for me to do my best to

23:40

simply sit and try to accept what was happening. At

23:43

that time, I thought of it as special

23:45

therapy for people like me who couldn't get out

23:47

of their own way. Later,

23:49

After fellow from the Zen center I

23:52

had begun my practice sent me

23:54

a note that he had greatly

23:56

enjoyed listening to a series of

23:58

lectures about Meister Eckhart by this guy named James

24:00

E. Finley. I had had

24:02

an interest in Eckhart since my days

24:04

in college, but had no idea who

24:06

James Finley was. The

24:08

lecture sounded interesting, but I wouldn't do

24:10

anything about this for another year. When

24:13

the thought of listening to the lectures arose

24:15

again, I I started listening to them in my

24:17

car as I drove back and forth to work.

24:20

Before I was even halfway through the lectures,

24:22

I through remember thinking, what have

24:24

I stumbled across? I

24:26

discovered that James Finley been a

24:28

monk at the Abbey of Gethsemane with

24:30

Thomas Merton. I was reminded of

24:33

how much Merton had meant to me in

24:35

an earlier time in my life and

24:37

and began to reclaim myself with his word. The

24:40

aspirations that I had attempted

24:42

to satisfy as a Christian and

24:44

continued to follow in Buddhist

24:46

practice began to fold together in

24:48

a way I would not

24:50

have anticipated earlier. The

24:52

best I can do to articulate

24:54

this process is that I've come to

24:56

have the sense that the contemplatives

24:58

of these two traditions, and I would

25:00

guess some other traditions as well, are

25:03

all circling around and pointing to

25:05

the same thing. I I

25:07

don't know that I'll ever be able

25:09

to participate in a spiritual practice that

25:11

doesn't point beyond itself in this way

25:13

ever again. Turning

25:25

to the Mystics continue in

25:28

a moment. Reflect

25:35

on the deeper meaning of

25:37

your journey in the to

25:39

the Mystics Online Retreat,

25:41

an interior pilgrimage, December 5th

25:43

through 8th, 2024. four Join

25:46

us for four days of

25:48

inner exploration based on the

25:50

themes of Turning to the Mystics

25:52

podcast, live teachings and

25:54

the chance to

25:56

ask your own questions

25:59

to James Finley. Learn

26:01

more and register.

26:03

at cac .org -slash -retreat.

26:05

That's cac .org/-e -t -r -e

26:07

-a -t. The

26:09

next theme is on

26:11

surrender. I think, first of

26:13

all, there's a way

26:15

of a conversion where

26:18

we're called to surrender and and move

26:20

beyond habits of the mind and heart

26:22

that cause suffering to ourselves and others. Then

26:25

also the surrender then where

26:28

it's illumined by faith. How

26:30

do I surrender myself over to

26:32

being attentive to what God's calling

26:34

me to, who I am deep

26:36

down am and really am and have to

26:38

be? How do I surrender to

26:41

that? It gets

26:43

even deeper, We is that we

26:45

have to surrender over not being

26:47

disturbed that we don't know how to

26:49

do this. See

26:51

as long as still trying to do it,

26:53

it'd be a refinement of us. So

26:56

we somehow to surrender over the ability

26:58

to know how to do it,

27:00

to sit in a quiet place

27:02

where we learn from God who

27:04

guides us in ways that we

27:06

don't know how to do it,

27:08

but God illumines us with that

27:10

knowledge. And I think that's

27:12

the mystical dimension of the surrender. Yeah.

27:16

For the pilgrim he had to

27:18

keep surrendering to the prayer

27:20

of the heart. The was telling

27:22

him to do more and

27:24

more repetitions to to that

27:26

surrender. That's right. And notice

27:28

what the teacher does, and he's being

27:30

very attentive to the pilgrim. What

27:33

he does is every time he feels the

27:35

pilgrim has found his footing, he

27:37

increases it a a little more so lose his footing. Because

27:40

we're trying to find this place that's

27:42

a free fall into God, like

27:44

a sudden awakening of a oneness that

27:46

washes over us It was beyond anything

27:48

that we would be capable of.

27:50

So that's at the heart of this,

27:52

I think, really. Yeah,

27:54

yeah. We have three

27:56

precious stories of surrender. The

27:59

first is from Jill who was

28:01

able to surrender her desire for retreat

28:03

in the acceptance of challenging circumstances. and

28:07

found experiential salvation. David

28:10

shares how a pilgrimage on

28:12

the Camino Trail he was

28:14

invited to surrender his own

28:16

expectations and much more. Sharon

28:19

shares how she surrendered her need

28:21

to understand and was met

28:23

by God in a profound way. Hi,

28:30

I'm Jill New Zealand, Christchurch in

28:32

New Zealand. I've

28:36

been wanting to go on a retreat my

28:38

husband is waiting on surgery and

28:41

the has been occurring to me during

28:43

my rendezvous time. I

28:45

can enter into an internal

28:47

pilgrimage at home during this

28:50

time. In fact

28:52

through this whole journey with his sickness

28:56

I can enter into an imaginal

28:59

pilgrimage room both

29:01

and spiritually. maybe

29:04

pilgrimageingly, where the

29:06

profound comfort I'm seeking is

29:08

found and I'm

29:10

welcomed in the sacred alone

29:13

space in the depth of

29:15

my being over and

29:17

over again. This

29:20

becoming a very personal path.

29:23

where in your words, I

29:25

find experiential salvation and

29:27

love en route. My

29:34

name is David from Dublin,

29:36

Ireland, and I'd like to share

29:38

my Camino story. At

29:40

Easter in 2019, with

29:43

the blessing of my wife and

29:45

family, I set out

29:47

from St Jean-Pierre -de -Port in southwest France.

29:50

France I ended up in in Santiago and a

29:52

half weeks later. I

29:54

started out walking on my own. My

29:57

plan was to use the time to think.

30:00

to think about what to do next in

30:02

my life and my career. But

30:04

as set out on day one

30:06

walk, it was immediately

30:08

clear to me that God had other plans

30:10

for this journey. That

30:12

might sound a little bit arrogant or

30:14

presumptuous, but it really isn't meant to

30:16

be. There were no

30:18

dramatic flashes of light or of thunder, but

30:21

I know, better than

30:23

I have ever known anything at any time in

30:25

my life, that God

30:27

with me and started

30:29

that day. Essentially,

30:32

God hijacked my Camino. I

30:35

realized that my whole life I had

30:37

created a God in my image, a

30:40

partisan, punitive, judgmental, dualistic

30:42

God who pretty much

30:44

hated everything and

30:46

everyone, not an altogether

30:48

unusual image for an evangelical

30:50

Christian I now know. Once

30:53

that realization in, the

30:55

way it was then open for all sorts

30:58

of transformation to take place, which

31:00

it did. I would

31:02

describe it as a removal of

31:04

layers and layers of rubbish and

31:06

blockages accumulated over many, many

31:08

years. In the

31:11

evenings, I'd get together with others for

31:13

a meal, where burdens were

31:15

shared and lifted, joy was

31:17

shared and experienced, and

31:19

it didn't matter if you were never going to

31:21

see the other person again, but but

31:23

usually you kept bumping them in

31:25

towns along the way. I

31:29

knew as I reached the end

31:31

in Santiago something had been done

31:33

to me, rather than that

31:35

I had done something. Thank

31:38

you for your wonderful podcast and

31:40

thank you for letting me share this

31:42

story. This

31:51

is Sharon Indiana. I

31:55

was 16 years old, when

31:58

in a sophomore year of college, my

32:00

brother, just several weeks

32:02

before his 20th birthday, committed

32:05

suicide. My

32:07

life after that was

32:09

divided into the before and the

32:12

after that trauma experiences

32:14

often create. The before

32:16

being the years of my life before

32:18

he killed himself and the after being

32:20

my life the years after. His

32:23

suicide which took place

32:25

in spite of my

32:27

specific prayers for him

32:30

and my parents religious fervor

32:32

was understandably a terrible emotional

32:34

and spiritual crisis for me. I

32:37

would ask any who had listened to try and make

32:39

sense of why this had happened. This

32:42

questioning went on for years. One

32:45

evening I remember asking God

32:47

once again why and then suddenly

32:50

hearing a very clear response.

32:53

If you never know the why you

32:55

still trust me? I

32:57

knew this was the voice of God within

33:00

me because it was nothing I would ever come

33:02

up with on my own. The

33:04

response to my question felt so

33:06

real it could have been audible although

33:08

it was not. Strangely

33:11

in spite of the non -answer

33:13

element I felt suddenly deeply

33:15

seen in my distress. I

33:18

feel like my question was

33:20

dismissed or diminished. It

33:23

occurred to me that much like

33:25

I desire a sense of being unconditionally

33:27

loved, God was asking

33:29

that of me. I

33:31

was surprised then

33:33

drawn. The

33:35

ask to trust and love God

33:37

in spite of all that was

33:39

unexplained was hindsight more

33:42

powerful than any explanation of offense.

33:44

because it was about the power

33:46

of being in a loving,

33:48

trusting relationship. The

33:50

quality of a relationship

33:52

is much more powerful and

33:55

it creates more peace than

33:57

any intellectual understanding or explanation. The

34:10

next theme

34:13

is fulfillment. The

34:15

fulfillment is

34:17

being like fulfilled

34:20

in the love of

34:23

God incarnate in Jesus

34:25

for us in our tradition, in our

34:27

lineage. Being utterly

34:29

fulfilled in the

34:32

love of Jesus, Jesus

34:34

awakens us to our heart and

34:36

heart is the place where

34:38

the presence of God and the

34:40

presence of us are one, the

34:42

heart. So not like in yoga, the

34:44

heart center, the chakra, the center, but

34:46

it's this place of the oneness

34:48

where we and God mutually disappear

34:50

as dualistically than each other. And

34:53

so it's fulfilled unexplainably.

34:55

It's a fulfillment that cannot

34:57

be explained. And it's a

34:59

fulfillment that we learn to live

35:01

by. So So eventually we of

35:03

learn not to seek it, because

35:05

when we seek it, it eludes

35:07

us. When we turn

35:09

towards it to explain it, it

35:11

eludes us. But we keep surrendering to

35:14

how we're being unexplainably overtaken by

35:16

it, and we learn to be

35:18

transformed, that of our

35:20

very subjectivity in this love, That's

35:22

the fulfillment. Lovely.

35:25

And And stories from our listeners are

35:28

attempts at explaining this sense

35:30

that you can feel through

35:32

their story of fulfillment. That's right. And

35:35

I also sense their stories also, quality

35:38

is they're trying to find words for fulfillment

35:40

for which there are no words. You can

35:43

bear witness to the attempt to say

35:45

it, but no matter what

35:47

you say, you know it short of a

35:49

fulfillment that lies beyond what

35:51

words can say. But in

35:53

the sincerity of trying to say it, you're

35:55

witness to it. And I think their

35:57

do that. We

36:00

have stories on from our listeners,

36:03

one from Ren, who waits patiently

36:05

to be guided to fulfillment,

36:07

and one from Bob, whose

36:09

acts of service led him into

36:11

an experience of divine love. This

36:18

is Ren from Indiana. One

36:21

of Jim's teachings that has been the most

36:23

meaningful to me was the idea that trying

36:25

to fit God into your mind is like

36:27

trying to fit the ocean into a thimble. When

36:30

I first heard the thimble and the ocean imagery

36:33

on the podcast, I didn't know exactly what

36:35

it meant, but I knew that it

36:37

meant something very important. This

36:39

led to a profound moment of mental healing during

36:41

a retreat. As

36:43

an exercise on the retreat, we had been asked to tie

36:45

a stone on a piece of yarn around our neck as

36:48

a physical expression of the burdens we were carrying. At

36:51

the peak of the retreat, we were given

36:53

quiet time to sit in a chapel to pray

36:55

and to hang our burden on the cross we felt

36:57

ready to do so. I

36:59

knelt and prayed with all my heart, hoping

37:01

that I would feel a lift of the burden of self -hatred

37:04

that had been weighing me down for so long. I

37:06

take the stone off my neck, then put it back

37:08

on again, then repeat the process, hoping

37:11

that the physical action would lead to an opening in my

37:13

heart. One by one,

37:15

the other retreatants began to walk up and hang

37:17

their stones before walking out of the chapel. After

37:19

praying with all my heart for what felt like hours,

37:22

I knew that I could not go up and

37:24

hang my stone with honesty in my heart. So

37:26

I walked out of the chapel, stone in my pocket. I

37:29

felt so ashamed that I was not able

37:31

to do the right thing, but I also

37:33

knew that I could not do that dishonestly have

37:35

peace with myself. I spent

37:37

the rest of the retreat feeling that stone in

37:39

my pocket and myself constantly checking to see if it

37:41

was still there, out of fear it would fall out and

37:44

someone else would see that I still had it. Suddenly,

37:47

a a clear picture came into my mind of

37:49

what I needed to do. I

37:51

needed to throw that stone into a a pond

37:53

at a park near my campus that was a

37:55

place of deep meaning to me. A

37:57

fellow retreatant drove me to that park in the dark of

37:59

night. and I walked to a dock on the water. I

38:02

held the stone out and, with a deep

38:04

breath, let it drop. I

38:07

watched the ripples expand out from

38:09

the center as reflected off the water and

38:11

I felt peace. In

38:14

that moment, I knew that something was permanently

38:16

altered in my heart. I was fundamentally

38:18

free in a way that I had never known.

38:21

Since then, there has always been a a

38:23

core confidence in God's oceanic love that is

38:25

always enough to hold everything and everyone, that

38:28

protects me from nothing. but

38:30

me in everything. This

38:36

is Bob from Colorado. One

38:39

pilgrim experience that has illuminated

38:41

my life is fostering infants

38:43

and toddlers. These

38:45

sweet, traumatized spirits came into

38:47

our lives one by one.

38:51

They stayed for several months on their

38:53

own journeys toward love, wholeness,

38:55

and family. Our

38:57

role was to love them and provide

38:59

peace, joy, and delight. What

39:02

I learned, what

39:04

I experienced, was that the

39:06

essence of divine love. Of

39:08

course I my family and my

39:10

own biological children quite deeply, but

39:13

I found this same deep, abiding love

39:15

for these children who came

39:17

into my life and then were gone.

39:21

And if this divine love binds

39:23

me to these young spirits,

39:25

then it must also be available

39:27

to bind me to all

39:29

spirits. And

39:39

the final theme that we're going

39:41

to look at is the of

39:43

ordinary life. Yes,

39:45

the divinity of ordinary life. So

39:48

this fulfillment in a deep

39:50

sense is not of this world. It

39:53

is a a foreshadowing of paradise.

39:56

It's at the hands of

39:58

love to everything less than love, to nothing's less. left of

40:00

us but love. And so this is

40:03

fulfillment beyond this

40:05

world. And yet at

40:07

the same time, this fulfillment

40:09

of God beyond this

40:11

world is a fulfillment

40:13

that in Christ is fully present

40:15

in the ordinariness of this world

40:17

itself. So it

40:19

becomes incarnate infinity intimately

40:21

realized. So there's something

40:24

divine about standing up and sitting down.

40:26

See, there's something Christ -like about

40:28

wiping off the kitchen counters. There's

40:30

something Christ -like about just

40:33

being alive, being attentive

40:35

to this. And so it comes

40:37

full circle this way. And that's

40:39

the unit of experience. See,

40:41

that's the mystical experience.

40:43

That this this -dual dimension isn't

40:45

dualistically other than the dual.

40:48

The non -dual dimension is the infinite ground

40:50

of the dual itself. And that's the

40:52

divinity of ordinary experience, I think. And

40:55

Jim, the ordinary life, even

40:57

in this state of oneness, still

41:01

includes suffering. We can't avoid

41:03

the suffering of the world. And

41:05

the pilgrim himself beaten up

41:07

on the road at the end of this

41:09

chapter. Yes. See,

41:12

the divinity of ordinary life is not

41:14

simply the divinity of the goodness of

41:16

life or the fulfillment of life or

41:18

the joys. It is that. But

41:21

it also includes, which is more

41:23

mysterious, what is divinity of

41:25

the broken places? And

41:27

so in the life of Jesus, we

41:29

see his daily life. See,

41:31

So he our life, but also

41:33

he suffered our suffering and

41:35

he died our death. And

41:38

won with us in the suffering and

41:40

the death. So is important. And I

41:42

say this too, as a traumatized person

41:44

and a trauma for years. Not

41:46

to romanticize loss, really,

41:49

because his loss is very very painful.

41:52

And we have to walk through it and

41:54

to it and do what we need

41:56

to do to internalize But there's something else too,

41:58

this. is that we come

42:01

to a place where when Jesus says, do

42:03

not be afraid I'm with you always. You

42:05

didn't say, don't be afraid, I'll personally

42:07

see to it that nothing painful happens to

42:09

you. But rather, no matter how

42:12

painful the things might be, I'm one with

42:14

you in it. And

42:16

therefore we can look back to

42:18

the painful things that really were painful. But

42:21

in time, with the grace of

42:23

God, it's painful, but it's not just

42:25

painful. There's something

42:27

in it that to

42:29

do with God's oneness with us. Not

42:31

just in our glory and happiness, but one

42:33

with us in our tears and

42:35

the broken places of our life.

42:38

And that's important. I think

42:40

sometimes too I've thought that sometimes

42:43

we pretend that we care less than we do

42:46

because if we let ourselves accept at the

42:48

feeling level how much we care, we'd

42:50

be swept away by it this

42:52

way. And there's a certain wisdom in a certain wisdom

42:54

in that. But how can I

42:56

find within myself a depth of love

42:58

that transcends the pain of the world?

43:01

Not by fleeing from it, but

43:03

by radicalizing my ability to stay present

43:05

in it without falling over. And

43:07

even if I do temporarily fall over, which

43:10

I will sometimes, I'm just a a human being,

43:12

I learned to get up and hopefully

43:14

the wiser for it. And

43:16

I learned to be more fragile

43:18

or more respectful for the

43:20

vulnerability of life. I think

43:22

that's so central for all of us,

43:24

I think. Yeah, and

43:27

that's that experience of salvation

43:29

in the everyday life, like over

43:31

and over again, so

43:33

that life just isn't

43:35

a a of joy suffering,

43:37

joy and suffering, but there's

43:39

something. That transcends

43:41

and ribbon both. And the way, when

43:43

you're actually shooting the that you can't

43:45

feel the joy, you're not supposed

43:47

to. You know, you're

43:49

traumatized, trauma is really. But

43:51

as you walk through it, and I say

43:54

this, a lot of deep trauma therapy is all about

43:56

this too, is you turn the field

43:58

at the feeling level and walk it and

44:00

experience it. experience it and understand it.

44:02

go on. You discover that deep as

44:04

the suffering is, there's something

44:06

in you that's not reducible to it because you're

44:08

still here. Not only

44:10

are still here, but you're

44:12

here grounded in a presence that

44:15

sense includes transcends

44:17

the suffering itself. And

44:20

then also opens you up to empathy,

44:22

because each one of us has a

44:24

unique addition of the same story. So

44:26

we walk this world of

44:29

infinitely loved, people, like Jesus

44:31

did. Yeah, beautiful. And

44:33

now we have two stories from

44:35

our listeners. The first

44:37

is from Zarena, who the

44:39

divinity in the ordinariness of

44:41

life through a simple seven

44:43

walk. And then

44:46

Paul experienced divinity in

44:48

learning to just be in God's

44:50

presence. in his

44:52

brokenness, his suffering, without trying

44:54

to change anything. This

44:57

is Zarena from England. I

45:00

had a beautiful awakening experience This

45:03

is upon me during from England. I'm

45:07

had a beautiful a lot of space and solitude. And I found lockdown

45:09

came upon me during the time of COVID. as

45:12

someone who needs a lot of space and

45:14

solitude. who is found

45:16

lockdown extremely challenging as I had multiple

45:18

meals, two children, and then I after my

45:20

elderly mother -in -law who is housebound

45:22

and diabetic, I'd get up early at 5.30 every

45:25

meals and timetables in a day

45:27

that was jam - so

45:29

that I'd get up early at quiet time in

45:31

morning to sit under my up. tree in

45:33

the garden But I could

45:35

have some quiet time evening walks I had to do across

45:37

children woke up. to

45:40

bring moved me supper each night. the daily evening

45:42

walks I had to do across the

45:45

field to bring my mother -law wonderful. each

45:47

night. I'm

45:49

a little scared of being This simple -minute walk,

45:51

which I've walked so many times

45:53

before, became saturated with

45:56

a sense of God's presence, listening

45:59

to the of the sea song, noticing

46:01

the fading light, the

46:03

gentle evening breeze on my skin. I

46:06

was simply taken over by

46:08

a simple, profound bliss, a

46:11

oneness that I can't describe. I

46:14

felt completely suffused. It

46:18

was so unexpected in the stress

46:20

and chaos of everything else, but

46:22

it felt like a homecoming within

46:25

my deeper stealth. Those

46:28

brief seven minutes

46:30

into a timeless space.

46:34

And although there are some days now

46:36

when the sense of presence dims, a

46:38

shift has happened, and it

46:40

has changed everything. Hi,

46:44

this is Paul from Minnesota, and I'm

46:46

sharing a recorded message in regard to

46:48

part of my journey and pilgrimage. My

46:54

this is Paul are is one of

46:57

glorious sharing a recorded message in

46:59

regard to part of my

47:01

journey in pilgrimage. My

47:04

pilgrimage, a as most

47:06

are, is one of

47:08

glorious brokenness. My

47:10

was challenging, my

47:12

brother committed suicide before

47:14

his 22nd birthday, and

47:17

my sister, Katie was in a

47:19

fatal horseback riding accident on her

47:21

honeymoon. She laid in in

47:23

a coma for 10 days before

47:25

she mercifully died. My

47:28

son was born six hours later

47:30

in the same hospital. My

47:32

wife died 16 years ago as

47:34

a result of a rare

47:37

brain cancer and was ravaged to her

47:39

last breath 10 months after

47:41

being diagnosed. Turning

47:43

to the mystics has given me

47:45

something more than anything I could

47:47

have learned, as it has

47:49

encouraged me to just be, and

47:52

that I do not possess

47:54

the power nor the ability to

47:56

transform my woundedness. I

47:59

also I also at a place where I

48:02

wouldn't change anything in my life as

48:04

it is all essential to the only

48:06

path I have and it is the

48:08

one that has led me to God.

48:12

I am spiritually lifted by

48:14

being driven to my knees. I

48:17

see God in all of these

48:19

things and that they were

48:21

not just traumatic experiences and

48:23

tragic losses and grief. I

48:26

do times get a real lonesome

48:28

feeling for my people and

48:30

sometimes I am a downright mess

48:32

I suppose. I

48:34

think actually I am most irresistible to

48:37

God as a downright mess.

48:40

So the mystics me

48:42

let go and let

48:44

be and that all is

48:46

well and as I

48:49

look back I can see my heart

48:51

is being enlarged by divine proportions. Perhaps

48:54

most of all I

48:56

see love guarantees it will

48:58

break my heart in

49:00

a million ways and as

49:02

God heals my heart

49:04

I find places in it

49:07

I never dreamed existed. Finally

49:10

I would just like to

49:12

thank Jim and Kirsten, for

49:14

the last three years you truly

49:16

have been sage

49:18

and absolutely wonderful spiritual

49:20

directors. Thank you

49:22

very much. And

49:34

now we coming to a close and

49:36

I just offer deep gratitude

49:38

to everyone who shared their stories

49:41

so sincerely with us today. What

49:43

a What a gift. Yes Yes, I

49:45

would like to echo that too, yes, grateful.

49:49

And Jim, you so much for

49:51

the season on the pilgrim that

49:53

invited us to connect to

49:55

the pilgrim in such deep

49:57

ways. It was a gift for me to share

49:59

it. Well, you,

50:01

Jim. Thank you, Corey and Dorothy in

50:03

the background. Thank

50:12

you for listening to this episode

50:14

of Turning to the Mystics, a podcast

50:16

created by the for Action

50:18

and Contemplation. We're planning to

50:20

do episodes that answer your questions, so

50:23

if you have a a

50:25

question, please email us at podcasts

50:27

at .org or send us a

50:29

voicemail. All of this information

50:32

can be found in the show notes. We'll

50:34

see you again soon. Do

50:43

you feel called to walk

50:45

a more contemplative path? The

50:47

Center for Action and Contemplation

50:49

is an educational non -profit

50:52

supporting the journey of inner

50:54

transformation. Our programs

50:56

and resources will help grow

50:58

your consciousness, deepen your

51:00

prayer practice, and strengthen your

51:02

compassionate engagement with the world.

51:05

Learn about our resources, such

51:07

as publications, podcasts, email

51:10

series, and events at

51:12

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