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You're listening to

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a podcast by

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the Centre for

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Action and

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Contemflation. To

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learn more, visit

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cac.org. Greetings,

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I'm Jim Finley.

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And I'm Kirsten

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Oates. Welcome to

0:25

Turning to The Mysteries.

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where we're turning to

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the teachings of Gabriel

0:31

Marcel. And I'm here with Jim

0:33

to dialogue about Jim's second

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session on fidelity. Yes,

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exactly. Glad to get into this

0:40

again for the people. Yeah. I'm

0:42

so looking forward to our discussion

0:44

and I just wanted to

0:47

remind everyone we're using the

0:49

philosophy of Gabriel Marcel by

0:51

Kenneth Gallagher. And so the quotes

0:54

will be quoting today are from

0:56

that book. Chapter 5 of

0:58

that book. Yeah. Chapter 5,

1:00

Roman numeral 1 on Fidelity.

1:02

Right. So I think

1:04

just to situate ourselves

1:06

back into the realm

1:09

of Marcel, you've shared

1:11

with us Jim that

1:13

Marcel shares vision and

1:15

path aspects to his view

1:17

of the world. Fidelity is

1:19

the start down. the path

1:22

aspects. He has these three path

1:24

aspects, but I thought it might

1:26

be helpful before we talk about

1:29

fidelity to to situate ourselves

1:31

in the vision aspects of

1:33

Marcel's path. Yes, and notice also,

1:35

we saw this in all the

1:37

mystics also, they start out by

1:39

bearing witness to what reality looks

1:41

like to awakened eyes, but the

1:43

spiritual worldview of the contemplative

1:45

way. And this is what

1:47

Marcel does. So, his approach to

1:50

this, we saw that each

1:52

mystic has his or her

1:54

own voice of expressing this.

1:56

He talks about a winding

1:58

path as a way of...

2:00

in our daily life, where

2:02

we constantly meet the interface

2:04

of aspects of our life

2:06

that are problematic, as distinct

2:08

from those that are mysterious. The

2:10

problematic, the problem that we face

2:13

is when we seek an answer

2:15

or a solution to a problem

2:17

that's dualistically other than ourselves.

2:20

So the example we use

2:22

is that my car won't

2:24

start. It's a problem. The roof

2:26

is leaking. It's a problem. I

2:28

can't figure out a certain math problem.

2:31

It's a problem. And so when it

2:33

comes to problems, we look for a

2:35

method to solve the problem, or we go

2:37

to someone trained in the use of the

2:39

method to help us solve the problem.

2:42

And then once we solve it, we're done.

2:44

We move on to the next problem.

2:46

So there is the reality, the problematic

2:48

of our lives. The realm of the

2:50

mysterious is different. and that

2:53

when we turn to mystery we

2:55

realize that we're turning towards aspects

2:57

of reality that cannot be objectively

2:59

set over dualistically other than ourselves

3:01

it includes us so example if

3:04

I ask what does it mean

3:06

to be human it's myself as a

3:08

human being this asking what does it

3:10

mean to be human what does it

3:13

mean to be human what is consciousness

3:15

is me in the reality in my

3:17

own consciousness asking about consciousness or if

3:20

I ask what is love It's my

3:22

very self and my desire for love

3:24

and my gratitude for love, this exploring

3:27

and asking about love. And so I

3:29

cannot separate myself that I'm always involved

3:31

in the mystery. So these are mysteries

3:34

and not problems. But he doesn't mean

3:36

that this is key to the Marcell's

3:38

vision. He doesn't mean it

3:41

in a reductionistic sense where everything

3:43

refers back to myself as my

3:45

opinions, you know, my conclusions, my

3:47

answers, my answers, my beliefs. He

3:50

means the opposite. He means that

3:52

the mystery of myself extends

3:54

out into and is woven

3:57

into the mystery of humanity

3:59

itself. and also my consciousness is

4:01

woven into the mystery of consciousness

4:04

itself and my love is woven

4:06

into the mystery of love itself

4:08

and ultimately speaking that my my

4:10

consciousness is woven into being this

4:13

what he means by the ontological

4:15

mystery means the mystery of being

4:17

he means that which is infinite

4:19

which is eternal and we're being

4:22

kind of very free about making

4:24

explicit about fullness of being being

4:26

being being being being So this

4:28

is implicit in Marcel. We'll look

4:30

at this closer later. And so

4:32

what it really means then, what

4:35

mystery is, is that the mystery of

4:37

myself extends out into and is

4:39

woven in to the mystery of

4:41

God, who's extending out and woven

4:43

into and given to me as

4:46

the mystery of me. So I'm

4:48

caught up in a transsubjective communion

4:50

with God, and that's the whole

4:52

realm of mystery. So he presents

4:54

it first by inviting us to

4:56

just reflect upon this, like just

4:59

to kind of quietly, and

5:01

there's another key thing from

5:03

ourselves in this. Primary reflection

5:06

is objective and factual. It

5:08

refers to the problematic that

5:10

has its own reality. Secondary

5:12

reflection is a reflection that

5:15

recognizes the inadequacy of primary

5:17

reflection. And it recognizes it because

5:19

we kind of begin to get

5:21

immersed into mystery. And really to

5:23

be immersed in mystery is to

5:25

be immersed in presence. As

5:28

insofar as I'm grounded in presence,

5:30

I start to see the non-objectifiable

5:32

mystery of myself. So he says,

5:34

this is the insight, this is

5:36

the vision. So then the question

5:38

is, if this vision rings true,

5:40

it rings true, but I realize how

5:42

much I get caught up in the

5:45

problematic. I get caught up in the concern about

5:47

the outcome of a situation. But what the person

5:49

is going to think of me is this going

5:51

to be okay, not a not okay, and I

5:53

kind of I'm like I'm skimming over the depths

5:56

of my own life caught on the surface of

5:58

the problem, but there are certain

6:00

moments where the mystery shines through.

6:02

And this is where we talked

6:04

about the thou moment. So the

6:06

thou moment is where there's someone

6:08

that I love and I see

6:11

them objectively. I know what they

6:13

look like and who they are.

6:15

I know their history. I know

6:17

their personality. I know all of

6:19

that. But to know them is

6:21

thou. is to experientially realize who

6:24

I know them to be in

6:26

my love for them. And what

6:28

I realize them to be is

6:30

that the infinite presence of God

6:32

is presence in itself in and

6:34

as the presence of the beloved,

6:36

and there are thou unto me.

6:39

And then when the one who

6:41

is thou unto me returns the

6:43

favor, then I'm thou is thou.

6:45

You have the reciprocity or the

6:47

union of love. And in this

6:49

union of love, we realize that

6:51

the two of us together, and

6:54

this also plays the family, father,

6:56

mother, sister, brother, friend, just love.

6:58

That all of us are the

7:00

thou of the infinite thou of

7:02

God, who is being poured out

7:04

and given to us as the

7:06

thou of ourselves. And there are

7:09

certain moments in this script which

7:11

is going to help us to

7:13

see this. There are certain moments

7:15

where it flashes for us. We

7:17

recall way back when we first

7:19

started with Thomas Merton. Where he

7:21

says, a world in time of

7:24

the dance of the Lord in

7:26

emptiness. And he says, we don't

7:28

have to go very far to

7:30

catch echoes of that dancing. And

7:32

he gives some examples. He said,

7:34

when we're out walking alone and

7:36

we turn to see a flock

7:39

of birds descending, where we know

7:41

love in our own heart, where

7:43

we're reading it, looked down into

7:45

a child's upturned face. And there

7:47

are endless other examples of quiet

7:49

hour days in, lying awake at

7:51

night, listening to our breathing. There

7:54

are certain moments. Sometimes they can

7:56

be very intense, transformative. They usually

7:58

they're very, very delicate. And so

8:00

he's pointing out these moments where

8:02

the thou shines through. The thou

8:04

is our very ontologies, our very

8:06

being, but where it shines into

8:09

our consciousness. And the first example

8:11

that he uses is a moment

8:13

of... And then he's going to

8:15

look at hope, then he's going

8:17

to look at love. So now

8:19

he's going to talk about fidelity,

8:21

because the question is this. If

8:24

there's a moment where I know

8:26

the thou, the moment in which

8:28

I'm illumined in the awareness that

8:30

thou passes, so the moment that

8:32

I'm awakened to the thou is

8:34

that he calls the sumum bonum

8:36

and extreme good, only if the

8:39

moment in time that transcends time

8:41

can be sustained through time, even

8:43

when I'm not feeling it, and

8:45

that's fidelity. And so he's going

8:47

to talk, what is the path?

8:49

How do we do that? So

8:51

he's going to give a concrete

8:54

example in real life. And he's

8:56

going to invite us to reflect

8:58

and explore it and walk through

9:00

it together. And we can apply

9:02

it to the endless various ways

9:04

that we experience this moment, because

9:06

it comes in many different ways.

9:09

So that's kind of the setup.

9:11

Yeah. This transition to path. Well,

9:13

I do want to spend a

9:15

little bit of time going back

9:17

through the vision, because... these phrases

9:19

that you took us through that

9:21

Marcel uses that they're so deep

9:24

they're familiar words and that and

9:26

when we were practicing you reminded

9:28

me that we have to slow

9:30

down to really experience what myself's

9:32

trying to help us learn yeah

9:34

so if it's okay I might

9:37

just take us back through some

9:39

of those key things that would

9:41

be good that would be good

9:43

you've said by the way I

9:45

want to pick up on what

9:47

we're doing right now Just what

9:49

we've said always before, you can't

9:52

skim read the mystics. Yeah. And

9:54

therefore, the pedagogy of Marcel, we

9:56

can't follow him unless we're willing

9:58

to slow down enough to kind

10:00

of sit with the implications of

10:02

what he's saying. It's not theoretical.

10:04

It's not abstract. It's just, we're

10:07

not used to being consciously aware

10:09

what's so intimate. If I was

10:11

to put my own... summary on

10:13

it. You said that Marcel helps

10:15

us see what reality... looks like

10:17

through awakened eyes. And his definition

10:19

of that is that we're in

10:22

this, living inside of this thou,

10:24

this being, we're participating in a

10:26

thou, a greater thou, a being,

10:28

but we're in a communion with

10:30

each other in that. Like the

10:32

whole experience is relationship, relationship with

10:34

being, relationship with each other, relationship

10:37

with creation. And so we live

10:39

inside of this relational field. Definitely

10:41

very good. I want to refine

10:43

it. Again, we from back to

10:45

the Christian Mystics. And it was

10:47

Thomas Merton also on this, where

10:49

he said, it's very helpful to

10:52

keep in mind that when we

10:54

die, we don't go anywhere when

10:56

we die. We don't take off

10:58

and go to some far-off place.

11:00

Scripture says in God we live

11:02

and move and have our being.

11:04

We're living in the vast interiority

11:07

of God. So all the dead

11:09

are here who never die because

11:11

are all eternal. All the angels

11:13

are here this way. So that's

11:15

the infinite thou. Yeah. And that

11:17

infinite thou is expressing and giving

11:19

itself to us as the manifested

11:22

presence of thou, which is the

11:24

mystery of our self. And so

11:26

we're all siblings of this infinite

11:28

presence. But we recognize we're siblings

11:30

of the infinite presence and are

11:32

recognition of each other. of ourselves.

11:34

So that's the insight he's trying.

11:37

And so we would try to

11:39

do this, I think. It's kind

11:41

of like, we hear something like

11:43

this, and we realize we need

11:45

to kind of, just like we're

11:47

doing right now, this what makes

11:49

it lexio divina. We need to

11:52

kind of pause and let it

11:54

sink in and reflect on it.

11:56

It intuitively rings true. but intuitively

11:58

brings true in a way we

12:00

can't explain. So if someone says,

12:02

oh you're hearing about Marcel, what's

12:04

he say? How do you say

12:07

it? But when you're in the

12:09

presence of his words, the presence

12:11

of his words, you realize your

12:13

own presence as in residence. is

12:15

resonating with this like, oh yeah,

12:17

he's helping me put words to

12:19

something that matters this way. And

12:22

what I really love about Marcel

12:24

is this emphasis on relationship and

12:26

how we can, one of the

12:28

modalities we discover this being, this,

12:30

discover this life in God is

12:32

in relationship with each other, this

12:34

relational way of interacting that can

12:37

illuminate. this thou, my own sense

12:39

of thou and my sense of

12:41

thou in you. I think that's

12:43

so helpful that we turn to

12:45

Marcel to see how the way

12:47

we interact with each other can

12:50

be a way of either illuminating

12:52

or closing off this thou relationship.

12:54

One of the ways it helps

12:56

me to see this idea is

12:58

that each of us is a

13:00

unique addition of the universal story

13:02

of being a human being. This

13:05

story is playing itself out as

13:07

my life, as your life, as

13:09

a life of everyone who's living

13:11

with us on this earth. We're

13:13

all woven into each other. We're

13:15

all entwined with each other. And

13:17

we're all woven into and entwined

13:20

each other, entwined each other, entwined

13:22

in the infinite thou, that's expressing

13:24

itself as the intertwining of each

13:26

other. But we also subsist in

13:28

a oneness with each other. We're

13:30

open and we belong to each

13:32

other. So fidelity is the moment

13:35

where we're quick and with the

13:37

awareness of that. Yes, it's always

13:39

true. And that's God's fidelity to

13:41

us. But the moment of fidelity

13:43

as an awakening is all of

13:45

a sudden, then the transsubjective inter-communion

13:47

of fidelity is in the presence

13:50

of thou. And he starts inviting

13:52

us to reflect on this, this

13:54

way. And so then the whole

13:56

idea of the winding path is

13:58

we're winding towards this union with

14:00

the vow and the way our

14:02

life is. might illuminate that the

14:05

way we might discover that in

14:07

the way we participate in our

14:09

life. Yes. Another way that I

14:11

say, yes, put it this way,

14:13

it's a winding path in moments

14:15

such as this, where an intuitive

14:17

residence was without a mention of

14:20

every moment, but the cell phone

14:22

goes off when we lose it.

14:24

So the winding path is kind

14:26

of recognizing how we move in

14:28

and out of the awareness of

14:30

a one that's always there, because

14:32

it alone is ultimately real. And

14:35

so then the winding path is

14:37

how can I then in seeing

14:39

this, recognizing myself the desire to

14:41

abide in an ever more habitual

14:43

state of this unit of mystery

14:45

of the thou nature where we're

14:47

all woven into each other, woven

14:50

into God, and that's the path.

14:52

This idea of problem and mystery,

14:54

myself's really helping us identify ways

14:56

we direct thought in these

14:58

two realms and that the

15:00

thought also is coming out

15:03

of a state of consciousness.

15:05

So if I'm in a

15:07

state of my consciousness is

15:09

in the realm of the

15:11

problematic and my thoughts are

15:13

directed to solving a problem,

15:15

I might have lost touch

15:17

with that mystery that's always

15:20

present. And so there's a

15:22

kind of thought that is

15:24

more the in alignment with

15:26

that mystery, which is Marcel's

15:28

words, his thought as a

15:30

philosopher. But this idea that

15:32

our thought can be more

15:34

in a state of consciousness,

15:37

that's aligned with mystery, but

15:39

what Marcel's hoping to engage

15:41

is the intermingling of the

15:43

two, how we do, yeah.

15:45

So in primary reflection, which

15:47

is the problematic, which is

15:49

real, which is our schedule

15:51

and, you know, whatever, the

15:54

details of the day, and

15:56

there's the thought that pertains

15:58

to all of that. I have

16:00

to think my way through something,

16:02

figure out something, and fix something,

16:05

and spirituality of maintenance, like

16:07

maintaining things, all of that.

16:09

But notice we're thinking now,

16:11

but it's a different kind of

16:13

thought. It's a certain kind of

16:15

interior way of thinking that's commensurate

16:17

with the depth of the presence

16:20

we're thinking of. This is why

16:22

I say this is the language

16:24

of lovers. This is the language of

16:26

parent with a child. This is

16:28

the language that we hear in

16:30

the cry of the poor. We

16:32

hear it in the healing word.

16:34

It's really the rhythm and

16:37

cadence of the poet's

16:39

voice. It's the deep meaning

16:41

of the words of Jesus

16:43

and the Psalms when we

16:45

hear it as the cadence

16:47

of this invitational kind of

16:49

presence this way. And this

16:51

is the voice of Gabriel Marcel. But

16:54

we're in deepening intuitive residence with

16:56

the unit of mystery that he's

16:58

inviting us to sit with and

17:00

stay with. And he's offering us

17:02

guidance in that which makes them

17:05

than the teacher. Because that's who

17:07

spiritual teachers are. You know, they

17:09

teach us. Because he himself embodies

17:11

it. You get the feeling he

17:13

didn't make this up or this isn't

17:16

something he's trying to be clever. This

17:18

is something that he is. He lives

17:20

by it. And then he's going to

17:22

say. deep-down call to be, we're called

17:24

to live by it too. So how

17:27

can I be a more consistent fidelity?

17:29

Do I deep down really am I'm

17:31

called to be in my very ontology,

17:33

in my very being, where it kind

17:35

of atmospherously permeates my consciousness or my

17:37

sensitivity of everything as I go through

17:40

my day? Yes, and that point

17:42

you just made is so

17:44

key to this idea of

17:46

primary and secondary consciousness because

17:48

if... I treat everything like

17:50

it's in the realm of

17:52

the problematic, like myself, everyone

17:54

I'm in relationship with, all

17:56

creatures. If everyone treats me,

17:58

like I'm not... but a

18:00

problem to be solved or

18:02

someone to be analyzed, you

18:04

get that sense of they don't

18:07

really see me. Yes. That heartbreaking

18:09

sense of not being

18:11

seen, not being known, would

18:13

that be secondary consciousness?

18:15

Yes, you can sense when

18:18

you're in the presence of

18:20

someone who can't see past

18:22

the sum total of the

18:24

details about you. They see through the

18:26

details about you. You could get a sense

18:29

that they see you. They see the presence.

18:31

And that's why I say sometimes a lot

18:33

of therapies like this. Sometimes you get the

18:35

feeling you're in the presence of someone who's

18:37

more present to you than you are. They

18:39

can see in you a presence. You're not

18:42

yet able to see. And you start to

18:44

find your way to it by believing in

18:46

their belief in you. And you start to

18:48

light up inside with your own presence.

18:50

So that's very much at the heart of

18:52

the path that we gave you gave

18:55

you of myself. This language kind

18:57

of carries us along to be

18:59

ever more stabilized in that. You

19:02

said from scripture in God

19:04

I live and move and

19:06

have my being and how

19:08

that's really what myself's pointing

19:10

to. So he would be saying

19:13

in being I live and move

19:15

and have my presence. Yes. And

19:17

this sense of my own being

19:19

and my own presence. goes well

19:21

beyond the details of my personality

19:24

and but it encompasses all of

19:26

that but it transcends that it's

19:28

something more pure yeah yeah and

19:30

you're hitting on another thing is

19:33

germane to Marcel also it's true

19:35

that later in his life he

19:37

became a cathic he died lived

19:39

a devout cathic life but he's

19:41

not this is religious consciousness meaning

19:43

this incarnate infinity intimately real life

19:45

outside of any belief system of

19:48

any world religion So it's almost

19:50

a way of finding the divinity

19:52

of life itself, which is the

19:55

religiosity of reality. And he says,

19:57

the more we get grounded in

19:59

this... the more we can turn toward

20:01

a certain belief system without falling prey

20:03

to fundamentalism, like a certain tribal hardened

20:05

lines of thought, because we see the

20:07

beliefs as script, whatever, like in us,

20:09

Jesus, dispensation of grace. We see it

20:11

as poetic metaphors of this mystery that

20:13

shines bright and is given to us

20:15

in Jesus. This is why Jesus spoke

20:17

in parables and didn't give lectures. And

20:19

so this is helpful. Which by the

20:21

way is what religion is all about

20:23

really. Yes. The religion is all about

20:25

finding God in life itself, you know,

20:27

finding God in who we are, created

20:29

by God in the image and likeness

20:31

of God. The holiness of standing up

20:33

and sitting down, you know, you know.

20:35

I love that about myself and... Marcel

20:38

has his own lineage of philosophers who

20:40

came to this inside and some of

20:42

them were Christian So it's not like

20:44

he stands alone in philosophy as people

20:46

who recognize this kind of religious consciousness

20:48

I love to be in the lineage

20:50

of philosophers that came upon this same

20:52

discovery and Jim just to say what

20:54

I heard you say is religious consciousness

20:56

stands outside of religion, but it's what

20:58

you said at the very beginning of

21:00

this session which is seeing reality through

21:02

awakened eyes. That's religious consciousness. Yeah, another

21:04

way to say it I think is

21:06

helpful. Krista Tippett does this very nicely

21:08

too in her book on religion or

21:10

why it matters and so on. The

21:12

root word of religion is relitio. Religio

21:14

is a ligature or a binding. Religio

21:16

is to be rebound to the binding.

21:18

The binding is the providential fidelity of

21:20

God being poured out and given to

21:22

us as life itself. It's sovereign, it's

21:24

absolute, but we've lost consciousness of it.

21:26

And so religion is to be rebound

21:28

to the origin that never left us.

21:30

As a matter of fact, it found

21:32

us where we were lost. This experience

21:34

of salvation. I once was lost, but

21:36

now I'm found. So religion conscious is

21:38

that it's a religious sensitivity to the

21:40

divinity of the concreteness of existence itself,

21:42

the passage of time. And then my

21:44

faith, whatever my faith lineage is, is

21:46

a certain dialect of that. It's a

21:48

certain historically, culturally specific way. And the

21:50

truthfulness of each way in the believer

21:52

is holiness. the holiness of the believer

21:54

embodies the truth of the belief. And

21:56

so this is perfect, this idea of

21:58

religion being rebound because Marcel is saying

22:00

we've become unbound from the realm of

22:02

mystery and we've become myopically focused on

22:04

the realm of the problematic. So we

22:06

need to be rebound to the realm

22:08

of mystery being presence. Yeah, and it

22:10

goes like this. It's going to be

22:12

an example for real life. So let's

22:14

say in God's fidelity to us, which

22:16

is sovereign and absolute, and always, it

22:18

alone is ultimately real, we tend not

22:20

to be aware of it. But we

22:22

are, it's manifested presence, it's the mystery

22:24

of ourselves. So what fidelity is, is

22:26

born in a moment where it shines

22:28

into consciousness. Like it's a moment where

22:30

we're quickened, where we're amazed, it's luminous.

22:32

And so he's inviting us, he's going

22:34

to give one example, but we'll get

22:36

more. on this demand. And that's what

22:38

he's really doing. See how? Not to

22:40

make face with my awakened heart. In

22:42

this certain moment I was given a

22:44

taste of a oneness, without which my

22:46

life is forever incomplete. And I know

22:48

it's true. I will not play the

22:50

cynic. I know it is true. And

22:52

knowing that it's true, then, that in

22:54

a moment it's shined in my consciousness.

22:56

What is the path along which it

22:58

could be more abitually established in that

23:00

this luminosity. This way. And this way.

23:02

And this is Marcel. And this is

23:04

Marcel. And this is Marcel. Beautiful. So

23:06

just pausing again to slow down. where

23:08

we're going to move towards the path

23:10

that myself offers, but the path comes

23:12

out of this desire to, like you

23:14

said Jim, to be seen and known

23:16

in the wholeness of myself and to

23:18

be able to see and know others

23:21

and all creation in the wholeness of

23:23

itself in being. And the path myself

23:25

offers is to meet us in that

23:27

desire. That's right. Remember T.S.L. in four

23:29

quartets. I did. And he says, he's

23:31

very close to Marcel on time and

23:33

eternity. And he says, to be conscious

23:35

is not to be in time. And

23:37

then he gives examples very close to

23:39

Marcel, where you're out walking, it starts

23:41

to rain, and you run underneath the

23:43

grape harbor, and you hear the big

23:45

drops of water hooding on the leaves,

23:47

we're in a drafty church of smoke

23:49

fall. So he talks about these certain

23:51

moments of a kind of an enrichment

23:53

of our own presence, of sisting in

23:55

presence. It's very subtle. And so he's

23:57

inviting us to calibrate our heart to

23:59

a fine enough scale that we kind

24:01

of become sensitized to the depth of

24:03

these moments. And then, but it goes

24:05

like this. But in order for this

24:07

to be a supreme good, this quickening,

24:09

a moment of time transcending time, it

24:11

must then be sustained through time. And

24:13

that's our fidelity in our consciousness to

24:15

the infinite fidelity of God, breath by

24:17

breath, heartbeat, by heartbeat. And this is

24:19

the path he's starting to mark out

24:21

for us. Wonderful. They, when two people

24:23

fall in love and get married, but

24:25

they also know that there is the

24:27

moment they fell in love. And there

24:29

are also the moments, barsozes that requires

24:31

moments to be renewed in time. And

24:33

they also know that if they're not

24:35

careful, they can get lost in the

24:37

problematic dimensions of their day-by-day life. And

24:39

they can lose their way. So what

24:41

we're trying to do is how to

24:43

be more consistently established in the depth

24:45

dimension of the concreteness of life as

24:47

the holiness of the details themselves.

24:49

he says, to see

24:51

that the incidental

24:53

details of life are

24:55

themselves flowing out

24:57

of an absolute sort

24:59

of gift. So

25:01

how can we see

25:03

the holiness that

25:05

wiping down the kitchen

25:07

counter matters in

25:09

a way that we

25:11

can't explain? And

25:13

we matter to each

25:15

other by listening

25:17

to each other, being

25:19

present to each

25:21

other. So that has

25:23

to do with

25:25

parenting, it has to

25:27

do with marriage,

25:29

it also has to

25:31

do with being

25:33

alone or loneliness turns

25:35

into solitude. It's

25:37

the way of the

25:39

artist, it's the

25:41

way of the poet,

25:43

it's the way

25:45

of healing. So this

25:47

is the tonal

25:49

quality of Marcel and

25:51

Bezos to be

25:53

present to. And then

25:55

this idea because

25:57

we subsist in God

25:59

or in being

26:01

that actually every moment

26:04

is a thou

26:06

moment. Exactly. And so

26:08

we can start

26:10

to look at our

26:12

life as subsisting

26:14

in this presence and

26:16

so being open

26:18

to what that's revealing

26:20

in every moment.

26:22

That's exactly right. So

26:24

every moment is

26:26

a thou moment. And

26:28

that's the ontological

26:30

mystery. So that's the

26:32

mystery of the

26:34

ontology, the very being

26:36

of the infinite

26:38

being of God given

26:40

to us free

26:42

gift of our very

26:44

being. The question

26:46

is, what are the

26:48

moments that it

26:50

shines in my consciousness?

26:52

Yes, shines in

26:54

my consciousness. As a

26:56

matter of fact,

26:58

as we look at

27:00

this example, sometimes

27:02

it shines in our

27:04

consciousness, it's shining.

27:06

We don't even recognize

27:08

that it's shining.

27:10

We want to reduce

27:12

it to an

27:14

emotion or a feeling.

27:16

So he's trying

27:18

to help us to

27:20

be sensitive to

27:22

the sacredness of certain

27:24

moments and be

27:26

intended to their far

27:28

-reaching implications and how

27:30

to live in

27:32

fidelity to that in

27:34

the day by

27:36

day. Wonderful. Turning

27:44

to the mystics will continue

27:46

in a moment. How

27:53

do we

27:55

become a loving

27:57

presence for

27:59

ourselves and others

28:01

in an

28:03

uncertain world? Explore

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28:07

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28:11

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28:50

That's cac.org/L-E-N-T-S-I-T-S. So we'll move

28:52

into the example of fidelity.

28:54

I like what you just said

28:56

about these moments when it

28:58

shines in our consciousness because

29:01

the big thing, we're not

29:03

in control of that. We

29:05

can't force that to happen, but

29:07

after it happens, we can

29:09

live in the resonance of it.

29:11

We can live in alignment with

29:14

it. And that's where you say

29:16

I won't. break with my awakened

29:18

heart. So there's there is something

29:20

that comes through that the thread that we

29:22

can hold on to. That's exactly

29:25

right. Another way to put it. What's

29:27

interesting is we go along the day

29:29

by day and there's a certain moment

29:32

where something flashes forth we didn't

29:34

see coming like an unexpected

29:36

quickening. But once the quickening occurs

29:38

we're left to ponder it and

29:41

what's the asking out of us?

29:43

And so he's going to look at

29:45

a certain moment where someone's surprise or

29:47

quickened and where the thou shines through

29:49

the fidelity and then the questions that

29:51

it raises in the mind of the

29:54

person. And we're to look at ourselves

29:56

and see different examples for us and

29:58

we're worthy implications for us. and myself

30:00

inviting us to consider.

30:02

I love his so practical examples

30:05

and how easy it is to

30:07

relate to this example. So I'm

30:09

going to put myself in the

30:11

position of the person visiting a

30:14

dying friend in hospital that myself

30:16

outlined. So I go to visit

30:18

a friend in hospital and I

30:20

have had this experience in my

30:23

own life visiting someone I know

30:25

in love that's dying and we

30:27

both know that's the path there

30:29

on. And myself says in this

30:31

example that when I'm there

30:33

with the person, I'm overcome

30:36

by an experience that causes me

30:38

to say, I'm going to be

30:40

here with you through this experience,

30:42

I'll be back. And I say

30:44

that to them. And in that

30:46

event of saying that to

30:49

them, there's a response from

30:51

them that is a sense that

30:53

they feel loved, cared for, you

30:55

know, they respond in a way

30:58

that's grateful. And so that's kind

31:00

of an event in time. And

31:02

then, however, you know, a couple of

31:04

days later, when I said, I'm going

31:06

to go back and visit the friend,

31:09

on that day, I don't feel like

31:11

visiting the friend. And that

31:13

event that took place, that holistic

31:16

sense of I want to be

31:18

here with you, I want to

31:20

help you, and here's an action

31:23

I can take to be here

31:25

for you. I've lost touch with

31:27

that experience and that feeling inside

31:29

of myself. So what am I to

31:32

do? That's the question. And I'm

31:34

sure we've all faced moments like

31:36

this where you felt one way at

31:39

one point and you feel very

31:41

differently later on. So

31:43

there's two approaches that Marcel

31:46

talks about that my ego can

31:48

wrestle with. So one is I

31:50

might call my friend and say... I'm

31:52

not feeling like coming today,

31:55

I'm sorry, I won't be

31:57

there. That's one approach, the

31:59

honesty. Yeah. And then the other

32:01

approach is, I mean, I can't

32:03

force myself to feel like, I

32:05

don't feel like going, but I

32:07

either, I'm so concerned about my

32:10

image or for me, my go-to

32:12

would be shame. Like I'm so

32:14

ashamed of myself that I force

32:16

myself to go, but it's out

32:18

of this experience of being a

32:20

shameful person and I should want

32:22

to go and I, they're the

32:24

two things. One is I'm going

32:26

to be honest and say I'm

32:29

not coming I just don't feel

32:31

like I'm not up to it

32:33

today or I'm going to force

32:35

myself to go and myself says

32:37

neither of those are fidelity but

32:39

then what are my other choices

32:41

Jim? Yeah yeah I want to

32:43

find a little bit more that's

32:45

exactly right you can see a

32:47

real he is so one is

32:50

I wouldn't say to the friend

32:52

I don't feel like coming because

32:54

that would hurt. So what you

32:56

would do realistically, you'd say something

32:58

like, I just can't believe it.

33:00

I got all this on top

33:02

of me this way, and I

33:04

have to do this, I have

33:06

to do this, and this, and

33:09

this, and this, I love to

33:11

come, you mean the world to

33:13

me? I just can't, the way

33:15

I hope, I really, I'm so

33:17

deeply sorry. I mean, seriously. And

33:19

so that would be understandable and

33:21

sensitive, but it's not what he

33:23

means by fidelity. The other one

33:25

is... You want to preserve your

33:27

image of yourself in your own

33:30

eyes? You're a person of your

33:32

word. And really you're living up

33:34

to an image of yourself. You

33:36

don't want to be ashamed of

33:38

yourself and therefore you're going to

33:40

make yourself go to see that

33:42

you live up to your own

33:44

image. He said that's not fidelity.

33:46

They're both understandable. So then neither

33:49

one is fidelity than what's left?

33:51

Yes, what's left Jim? And the

33:53

error seems to be that Marcel

33:55

is saying. is we're assuming that

33:57

the moment we made the promise

33:59

to the friend that it was

34:01

a feeling. And it was a

34:03

feeling. We were assuming it was

34:05

just a feeling. Like an emotion.

34:07

An emotion. Well, we don't realize.

34:10

where we tend not to be

34:12

sensitive to. It is a feeling,

34:14

but shining through the feeling, the

34:16

dying friend intimately realizes thou. And

34:18

by the way, you wouldn't necessarily

34:20

be able to reflect on this

34:22

when it's happening, because you are

34:24

it. This why it takes thought

34:26

to reflect upon this, on what

34:29

happens, because it's like a flash

34:31

of light. And what happens then

34:33

is that they're seen as thou,

34:35

namely in Marcellian language, is that

34:37

the infinite thou of God, Lord

34:39

God, Father art in heaven, the

34:41

infinite thou of God, we realize

34:43

it's presence in itself, and giving

34:45

itself away in and as the

34:47

very presence of my dying friend.

34:50

So in the presence of my

34:52

dying friend, in certain sense, I'm

34:54

in the presence of God. And

34:56

then also, it isn't just that

34:58

I'm in power to see it.

35:00

But the very fact I'm empowered

35:02

to see it reveals the thou

35:04

dimension of me in this. So

35:06

in a certain moment my friend

35:09

and I are kind of beyond

35:11

time. You know, we're kind of

35:13

not of this earth. It's a

35:15

moment of time transcending time and

35:17

eternity. And so then I say,

35:19

see, I'm going to be faithful

35:21

with a certain kind of fidelity

35:23

to the truth of my heart.

35:25

that in that moment I fleetingly

35:27

glimpse to I deep down really

35:30

am called to be and seeing

35:32

whom my dying friend deep down

35:34

really is and is called to

35:36

be and I will not break

35:38

faith with that. And so the

35:40

question then is this moment of

35:42

time transcending time I'm going to

35:44

be faithful but it's going to

35:46

be a fidelity based on the

35:49

imperative of my heart. An example

35:51

of this would be too to

35:53

extend this out the ways. In

35:55

our own life, it can be

35:57

a married love, it can be

35:59

a child, it can be a

36:01

classroom of students. It can be

36:03

the artists and their fidelity to

36:05

art, the poet and the fidelity

36:07

to poetry. presence and their fidelity

36:10

to healing. The solitary wanderer and

36:12

their fidelity to solitude. There's a

36:14

certain way we were quickened. Silence

36:16

or solitude or art or creativity,

36:18

whatever it is. And in the

36:20

moment of quickening, the moment passes.

36:22

But we're called to continue in

36:24

an interior fidelity through time of

36:26

the moment that passes. I think

36:29

comes closer to how he's trying

36:31

to apply this to our own

36:33

life. Yes. Yes. So just going

36:35

back to that moment where it's

36:37

almost like something comes over me

36:39

in this example because this is

36:41

an example of this downness shining

36:43

through consciousness is what myself referring

36:45

to. So in this moment it's

36:47

almost like something flows through me

36:50

so it's not my emotions coming

36:52

to the for and my will

36:54

coming to the for and... knowing

36:56

what it means to be a

36:58

good friend coming to the fore.

37:00

It's like something beyond me and

37:02

in me, it kind of rises

37:04

up. And it's like all those

37:06

ego components are stilled. And this

37:09

energy and love flows through me

37:11

for my friend and then my

37:13

words line up, my heart lines

37:15

up, and I kind of say

37:17

the thing. And I find in

37:19

moments like this, I'm often surprised

37:21

by what I've said, and especially

37:23

I'm so in awe of the

37:25

moment of how well it lands,

37:27

of how, when you help someone

37:30

in a way that you didn't

37:32

see was possible, or it kind

37:34

of comes from somewhere beyond you.

37:36

For this way, when the moment's

37:38

actually happening, we might say it's

37:40

too self-evident to doubt, it's too

37:42

deep to comprehend. It's like Moses

37:44

in the presence of the burning

37:46

bush, it's burning but it's not

37:49

burning up. So you're quicken, but

37:51

here's the thing, even though it's

37:53

too self-evident to doubt. It's so

37:55

subtle we don't see it. But

37:57

sometimes we're sensitive enough to see

37:59

it. Put it another way. If

38:01

you have a friend, this happens

38:03

a lot in therapy, spiritual direction

38:05

too. If you have a friend

38:08

who's really hurting, and in your

38:10

love for them you say something

38:12

that helps, and you don't know

38:14

how you know how to say

38:16

that. See, that would be the

38:18

thou. It's not a preconceived memorized

38:20

thing, but it was given to

38:22

you out of the mystery of

38:24

your own being. in response to

38:26

your love with the person and

38:29

their being, and it was a

38:31

granting that occurred this way. Yeah.

38:33

So then those couple of days

38:35

later where we were talking about

38:37

those two options, the one of

38:39

just sharing I'm so sorry but

38:41

I can't come or forcing myself

38:43

to go, the third option which

38:45

a lot of people wouldn't even

38:48

recognize is this to kind of

38:50

move towards a state of prayer

38:52

or honoring... what showed up in

38:54

me in that moment and trusting

38:56

that that was a gift for

38:58

this person that that I need

39:00

to honor, you know, that that

39:02

the promise was made out of

39:04

this thouness and that it calls

39:06

me to live my life in

39:09

alignment with that promise and that's

39:11

a gift to myself and a

39:13

gift to the person. Yes, right.

39:15

You know, example, I used some

39:17

psychotherapy to... A lot of psychotherapy

39:19

is being in the presence of

39:21

someone who invites you to slow

39:23

down and listen at the feeling

39:25

level to what you just said.

39:28

They were always skimming over the

39:30

implications of what we just said.

39:32

Another way of looking at it

39:34

too in terms of Christian faith.

39:36

You look at the world. collectively

39:38

unaware it is of this. Yes.

39:40

I'll just turn on the evening

39:42

news. Turn on the, you know,

39:44

it's just so... But Jesus is

39:46

God's response to us as revealed

39:49

that we're invincibly precious in the

39:51

midst of our unawareness and walked

39:53

with us. And when you really

39:55

look at the stories in the

39:57

gospel, everyone who met Jesus, it

39:59

was... was a thou moment. It was

40:01

like an awakening. And then when

40:04

we listen to it, you realize

40:06

as you meditate on it, it's

40:08

about you. This is Marcel's, we're

40:10

in the realm now. I love this

40:12

quote, that fidelity's access is

40:14

not the self at all.

40:16

It is another. It is

40:18

the spontaneous and unimposed presence

40:20

of an eye thou. That's

40:22

right. And that unimposed

40:24

present was just the friend, the

40:27

beloved whoever it is. It's the

40:29

eye thou. And knowing that the

40:31

Zao is not dualistically other

40:33

than the infinite thou that's

40:36

presenceing itself is the thou. And

40:38

also that I thou is not

40:40

dualistically other than me, because we're

40:42

in a communion together, like siblings

40:44

of this infinite love. We're in

40:46

a communion in our wonders with

40:48

each other that incarnates and embodies

40:51

the infinite presence of this, and

40:53

that's the sacrament. So myself inviting

40:55

us to... You just let this

40:57

soak in and be reverentially attentive

41:00

to it on how to bring

41:02

this to bear on the realities

41:04

of our life. And this is for

41:07

myself and for many of the

41:09

mystics what it means to be

41:11

a person. And there's another quote.

41:14

We are called to be persons,

41:16

to be selves, to found ourselves

41:18

in eternal and unqualified meaning beyond

41:21

the sum of our conscious

41:23

states. That's right. That's very

41:25

good. Yeah. And we've quoted this

41:27

before, or Thomas Merton saying,

41:29

the most important things in

41:32

life are the very things we

41:34

can't understand, but we simply have

41:36

to accept where we go crazy inside.

41:38

As we listen to it, my own

41:41

awakening heart knows that it's true. But

41:43

my own conceptual problematic mind can

41:45

now find an explanation that

41:48

does justice to it. It's

41:50

the immediacy of the unexplainable

41:53

mystery of myself. this way,

41:55

this is how, this way, yeah.

41:57

Yeah, beautiful. And Gallagher also

42:00

quotes Royce who was influential on

42:02

myself saying there is only a

42:04

person in as much as there

42:06

is acceptance of a certain task

42:08

assigned by the absolute so that

42:11

that this idea of in that moment

42:13

that event of me telling my

42:15

friend of making that promise it's

42:17

like a task assigned to me

42:19

by the absolute and so I

42:22

become a person when I live

42:24

in fidelity to that. That's right.

42:26

Thomas Burton said I finally come

42:28

to realize. What I

42:30

must do is come to accept

42:32

myself. Because there's very little chance

42:35

I'm ever going to be anybody

42:37

else. But just me that I

42:39

am, but who am I? I'm

42:41

a thou. Because if I don't live

42:44

my life, nobody will. And so

42:46

what is my life? And what is

42:48

the depth of my life that's

42:50

concretely present and shining out

42:53

here and there in these

42:55

thou moments. But also... How

42:57

can we become abitually sensitive

42:59

to the thou nature of

43:02

the unfolding of the incidentals

43:04

of daily life itself this way?

43:06

To be an ever more present

43:08

person, an ever more compassionate person,

43:10

an ever more vulnerable person, an

43:13

ever more humble person, and ever

43:15

more, how can I be helpful

43:17

kind of person? I said, I'm

43:19

being myself, I'm on the journey

43:22

of my unfolding self. Yes, I

43:24

find this quite helpful from myself.

43:26

only by accepting contingent circumstances

43:28

as a gift from the

43:30

transcendent can I see them

43:33

as anything but absurd. I

43:35

recognize them as mine in

43:37

so far as I acknowledge

43:39

them as participants in a

43:41

vocation to which I am

43:44

called and that vocation

43:46

would be the thou to discover

43:48

the thou. That's right and I'll

43:50

put another way too to the

43:52

listeners listening to us. In so far

43:54

as this way of speaking

43:56

speaks to you the

43:58

insofar as You sense that it's

44:01

beautiful. And you know it's beautiful

44:03

because it's true in unexplainable ways.

44:05

And so far as you come

44:07

to this play, otherwise you wouldn't

44:09

be listening. How has it come

44:12

to pass? You've become such a

44:14

person. It isn't not so it

44:16

hasn't always been this way with

44:18

you. This is why sometimes it's

44:20

really true you can pick up

44:22

a certain spiritual book. You can't

44:24

get through the first paragraph. What's

44:27

that mean? Pick up the same

44:29

book five years later, you have

44:31

to sit down. You know, like,

44:33

oh my God. And so there's

44:35

a certain, we're on a path

44:37

not of our own making. It's

44:40

like the winding path that's brought

44:42

us to a series, which makes

44:44

it providential that we're together this

44:46

way with Marcel. His deathless presence,

44:48

like all these mystics. is inviting

44:50

us to be more present to

44:52

the mystery of our own presence

44:55

and our oneness with each other.

44:57

And this is why our practice,

44:59

our daily rendezvous, you call it,

45:01

is so important because it's this

45:03

reflective way of being and thinking

45:05

that enables us to discover, to

45:07

even look back on the winding

45:10

path and see the ways that

45:12

God has brought us to this

45:14

place and it helps us, this

45:16

idea of not breaking the thread.

45:18

that we become more and more

45:20

attuned to the resonance of those

45:23

experiences. That's exactly right. We're touched

45:25

by this. And we're touched by

45:27

it because this is where Black

45:29

Marcel is Lexio da Vina. We're

45:31

in the presence of this presence,

45:33

this presencing itself and echoing in

45:35

these words that echo in our

45:38

heart. And we're moved by, but

45:40

here's the point. The complexities of

45:42

the day's demands like a coup

45:44

d'a carries me away. And therefore,

45:46

I have to be faithful to

45:48

a daily rendezvous. And there's no

45:51

agenda with this. Thomas Brindon said,

45:53

with God a little sincerity, he

45:55

goes a long, long way. And

45:57

so we sit down with childlike

45:59

sincerity, and we open ourselves to

46:01

this, and we. listen to this.

46:03

That's why you can listen to

46:06

these reflections over and over. It's

46:08

not redundant. It's like poetry in

46:10

blank verse, you know, it like

46:12

touches a place. So that's the

46:14

lexio. The metatio, you might journal

46:16

it out, like how would I

46:19

say it? What questions does it

46:21

raise in my mind? It's where

46:23

you're bringing it to thought. Thought

46:25

that was received this way. And

46:27

then the prayer has helped me

46:29

with this. So as you go

46:31

through your day, you ask for

46:34

the, not to break the thread.

46:36

And you'll notice it breaks many

46:38

times, but now you're aware that

46:40

it breaks, but your faith is

46:42

knowing from God's in it never

46:44

breaks. Why? Because the moment you

46:46

get your bearings back, it's there

46:49

waiting for you. It was also

46:51

one with you when you went

46:53

away. The lost sheep, you know,

46:55

it's just the constancy of this

46:57

presence with us. And over time

46:59

that deepens. And over time that

47:02

deepens. And that's the mystery. It's

47:04

mysterious, we can't make it happen,

47:06

it's mysterious, the way, the interplay

47:08

of us and that illumination. I

47:10

love this line, this is going

47:12

to be one of my big

47:14

takeaways from Marcel. The self, and

47:17

he uses upper case S, so

47:19

the self or the thou, using

47:21

his language, the thou that exists

47:23

through fidelity is a creative discovery

47:25

and not an automatic fact. And

47:27

that's the encouragement to be in

47:30

our practice. It's an event. like

47:32

a light shines out like a

47:34

creative and it is creative and

47:36

here we want to make this

47:38

distinction this way he's saying it's

47:40

that it creates itself but we

47:42

would say and he would but

47:45

it's implicit in him that we

47:47

would say it doesn't create itself

47:49

but rather it renews in time

47:51

who God eternally knows us to

47:53

be hidden with Christ and God

47:55

before the origins of the universe.

47:58

And so who God eternally knows

48:00

us to be is were co-created.

48:02

What's given to us in eternity

48:04

flashes forth in our body in

48:06

time. And so he's saying of

48:08

this. creation in that sense. Yes,

48:10

I did want to talk a

48:13

little bit about making promises because

48:15

this idea of the promise that

48:17

I made in the hospital and

48:19

then how do I live in

48:21

fidelity to it and what myself

48:23

really pointing to is this kind

48:25

of event like you're saying this

48:28

creative discovery of the thou and

48:30

living infidelity to that because often

48:32

we make promises and it might

48:34

not be out of that thou

48:36

dimension and so myself's not saying

48:38

every time you make a promise

48:41

or every time you say you're

48:43

going to do something you must

48:45

stick to your word and I'm

48:47

thinking in particular of you know

48:49

how sometimes people out of fear

48:51

they agree to keep a terrible

48:53

secret for someone and they make

48:56

a promise to them but it's

48:58

really done out of fear and

49:00

those kind of promises that's not

49:02

what myself's talking about. That's a

49:04

very important insight. It's also key

49:06

to therapy too. Say we make

49:09

the promise and then after the

49:11

moments over we think about it

49:13

you say it wasn't right that

49:15

I did that I can't promise

49:17

that. And then fidelity comes in

49:19

the introspection that follows why do

49:21

I do things like that? Yeah.

49:24

What happens when I burn something

49:26

out? And it's not coming from

49:28

the depth of myself. It's coming

49:30

from an internalized protocol, often to

49:32

internalize traumas and abandonments, like survival

49:34

strategies, like a certain, well, we're

49:37

acting out a certain play. How

49:39

am I going to get past

49:41

this way? But so then the

49:43

fidelity would come in that sense.

49:45

See. And then you would have

49:47

to go back to the friend

49:49

and say, I need to apologize

49:52

to you. I will be with

49:54

you interiorly, but I can, and

49:56

the reason I can't is I

49:58

have a child who's termina ill

50:00

at home this way, and I

50:02

can't leave because my wife's very

50:04

distressed, and my heart goes out

50:07

to you, but I can't become

50:09

and leave that. Because of my...

50:11

Just so you know, it doesn't

50:13

mean that I don't... about you

50:15

at all. It just means that

50:17

I wasn't honest with myself by

50:20

saying something I had no right

50:22

to say. But then the secondary

50:24

reflection of that kind of honesty,

50:26

that would be fidelity. Yes, yeah.

50:28

Or if someone, you know, I

50:30

felt forced to keep a secret

50:32

for someone who didn't recognize the

50:35

thou in me and at some

50:37

point I might come up on

50:39

my own now and realize I

50:41

need to tell. Yeah. Yeah. That's

50:43

true. Because sometimes we get caught

50:45

up in a relationship with someone

50:48

that they can tell they don't

50:50

see us. But we're also afraid

50:52

to be alone. And the reason

50:54

they don't see us is as

50:56

a certain way we don't see

50:58

ourselves. Yes. But something in us

51:00

doesn't sit well with us. And

51:03

so that's fidelity. See how do

51:05

I then listen to this discomfort

51:07

like a voice? inside of me.

51:09

And what's at asking? Because the

51:11

price paid for that kind of

51:13

fidelity is high, but the price

51:16

paid for not doing it is

51:18

higher, because the price paid for

51:20

the half-lived life is bitter. So

51:22

fidelity is very bound up with

51:24

the question of integrity and very

51:26

bound up with humility. And this

51:28

key to this, too, I think.

51:31

Yeah. It's always tricky once you

51:33

move into the realm of true

51:35

religion. and of the mistakes because

51:37

it's not prescribed. We'd love to

51:39

just say, okay, I'll always be

51:41

a person of my word, I'll

51:43

always do it. And I, and

51:46

just, you know, if I follow

51:48

these rules, that'll, you know, be

51:50

what I'm looking for. It's never

51:52

prescribed like that. And I love

51:54

this quote from myself. In no

51:56

case, however, is fidelity tied to

51:59

a specific, dogmatized version of the

52:01

absolute. In so far as it

52:03

remains adherence to a presence to

52:05

a presence. It always overruns our

52:07

attempts to delineate its object. For

52:09

the more effectively I participate in

52:11

being, the less I am able

52:14

to know or to say in

52:16

what I... participate. Yeah, I also

52:18

love this sentence. He says, the

52:20

more our unrationalized response, that is

52:22

the response that can't be reduced

52:24

to a reason or an explanation,

52:27

the more our unrationalized response to

52:29

being takes cognizance of itself. See,

52:31

that's thought. The more perfect becomes

52:33

our conception of the being that

52:35

evokes it. And he says, and

52:37

this is why perhaps it's more

52:39

helpful to first be grounded in

52:42

this. So we can then turn

52:44

toward these configurations of this in

52:46

each world religion without slipping into

52:48

proof text, flipping back and forth

52:50

like fundamentalism. Yeah. Or rules to

52:52

live up to. Rules to live

52:54

by. Because if you look at

52:57

Jesus in the Gospels, the people

52:59

that argued with the most were

53:01

the Pharisees, they quoted scripture to

53:03

him. Yes. Ironically. Yeah. Well, what

53:05

a beautiful, deep, and also quite

53:07

practical approach to this path. I

53:10

so appreciate you sharing myself with

53:12

us and this discussion about fidelity.

53:14

That's right. I want to end

53:16

with the final note to that

53:18

on this. How could we, in

53:20

taking this to heart, learned to

53:22

be more watchful of the ways

53:25

that we're buying into the outcome

53:27

of the situation? is having authority

53:29

over the conditioned state of our

53:31

heart. And how can we, in

53:33

seeing that, understand it and accept

53:35

it, but to realize that there's

53:38

something infinitely bigger to transcends the

53:40

circumstance and is riven through the

53:42

circumstance? And how can I, by

53:44

a kind of secondary prayerful reflection,

53:46

be more sensitive to it and

53:48

ever more habitual state of how

53:50

I live my life? Yeah. Because

53:53

no matter how big the... problem

53:55

we're facing and we face really

53:57

big problems like the friend who's

53:59

dying. There's something that's transcendent and

54:01

true and real and internal. And

54:03

it's always there. It's like a

54:06

John of the Cross have no

54:08

light to guide yourself the one

54:10

that burns in your heart. So

54:12

the burning is the fidelity of

54:14

God it burns with this love.

54:16

And so what's incremental is the

54:18

variations of our degree to which

54:21

we're aware of it. So we're

54:23

trying to be aware, and we're

54:25

also trying to be aware, that

54:27

God's infinitely aware of us as

54:29

precious in the degrees of our

54:31

unawareness, because it's all ends in

54:33

mercy. See it all ends in,

54:36

how do I walk my walk

54:38

and pass it on to other

54:40

people? So anyway, yeah, they're beautiful.

54:42

They're beautiful. That God always sees

54:44

the thou of us. Even when

54:46

we can't see it or experience

54:49

or know it. Yeah. Yeah. Merton

54:51

says it's because it's unless it

54:53

belongs completely belongs completely to God.

54:55

We don't belong to ourselves. You

54:57

can't increase it because it's infinite.

54:59

And no matter how badly you

55:01

betray it, you cannot lessen it

55:04

because it's sovereign. And we're trying

55:06

to find our way to that

55:08

fidelity. Beautiful. Amen. Praise the Lord.

55:10

Thanks so much, Jim. See you.

55:12

Thank you. Yes. And thanks to

55:14

Dorothy and Vanessa and Corey, who

55:17

support us so wonderfully in the

55:19

background. Thank

55:24

you for listening to this episode

55:27

of Turning to the Mystics, a

55:29

podcast created by the Centre for

55:31

Action and contemplation. We're planning to

55:33

do episodes that answer your questions.

55:36

So if you have a question,

55:38

please email us at podcasts at

55:40

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55:42

All of this information can be

55:45

found in the show notes. We'll

55:47

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55:59

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56:01

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56:03

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