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You're listening to a podcast by

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the Center for Action and

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Contemplation. To learn more, visit cac

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.org. Action and

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I'm Jim Finley. and

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I'm To learn

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more, visit turning to the

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mystic. Greetings, I'm

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Jim Finley. And

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I'm Kirsten Oates.

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Welcome to Turning to of

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Turning to the Mystics,

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where we've been turning to

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T to T.S. his poetry

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in four quartets. four Today

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is is part of

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our listener questions. I'm here with

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Jim, and we and we have a lot of

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questions to get through, so let's dive in. dive

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in. The first question is

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from Brian Brian. In the In the

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first stanza of Dry

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Selvages, T.S. Elliot begins by

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describing the the river, sullen

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and tamed, intractable. patient

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to some degree. degree. When When

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you read out the line, river river is

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within us. three, I could not help but could

1:00

not help but think of my

1:02

anger as the strong, am someone who I

1:04

am someone who struggles similar to a

1:06

river, I to a river, ways I can see

1:09

the ways in which it causes destruction and

1:11

devastation to the people around me. me, usually

1:13

the people that I love the most. most. When

1:15

When things are going my way I I have

1:17

some semblance of control over my life, my

1:19

anger is forgotten. is forgotten, goes

1:21

away. goes away. is simply simply watching

1:24

and waiting. waiting. When I start to

1:26

lose control is when my anger rises and

1:28

starts to come to life. to come

1:30

to you have any guidance from

1:32

your years as practicing clinical psychology? on

1:35

how I might learn to deal with my anger.

1:37

to deal with anger? Yes, this is to

1:39

the previous thing about anger, but you're

1:41

adding anger, but you're adding a new nuance I think

1:43

too. I think too. of all, here's my

1:45

thought, I'm gonna speak as a

1:47

therapist. going to speak as a it's

1:49

one thing to be quick to quick to anger.

1:52

It's another to have impulse controller

1:54

comes out. it comes out. Just beneath

1:56

the anger is the pain. And just beneath the

1:58

pain is the power it. Thank much. And

2:01

so really it's a therapeutic issue

2:03

of impulse control. over

2:05

the anger. What's that about? Where

2:07

are the resources within yourself that's qualitatively richer

2:09

than what you're angry about? You know,

2:11

it's like all of a sudden in a

2:13

twinkling of an eye, that's what anger

2:15

like, by the way. In anger of an

2:18

eye, like God's not real, you're not

2:20

real, nothing's real, there's only how few. And

2:22

the thing about it is it makes

2:24

you momentarily feel empowered. like

2:27

just incredible Hulk. But

2:29

really when you think about it, because of

2:31

poor impulse control, it's actually a fragility. Not

2:33

just hurt them, it hurts you too. So

2:35

I would encourage, you, we all have things

2:37

to work on, but I would encourage you

2:39

based on, it's up to you, kind of

2:42

where you are and what's possible. Just to

2:44

get help with that. Because there's

2:46

a certain way of, it's important

2:48

to honor the anger. But

2:50

there's a certain part in you that

2:52

it isn't as if I'm angry on

2:54

a scale of one to 10 at

2:56

a three, you know, this is irritating,

2:58

where you hit a tripwire and you

3:00

go instantly to 10 plus. And that's

3:02

what you really ought to modulate the

3:04

anger that's proportionate to the stimulus to

3:06

put it into a context to have

3:08

more to kind of sort all that

3:10

out what that's about. And a lot

3:12

of times not always, but again, just

3:14

to meet the anger is the pain

3:16

is the bereavement of something. That's

3:19

why often after sometimes people will

3:21

express anger and therapy so nice tears

3:23

will come because the tears are

3:25

underneath the anger This way and the

3:27

tears are more real and that

3:29

beneath the tears is feeling powerless So

3:31

well, how are you unexplained of

3:33

the empowered by God who's infinitely in

3:35

love with you and your powerlessness?

3:37

And how could you strengthen that as

3:39

a base to work on? this? There's

3:42

the things to possibly consider. It might apply,

3:44

I don't know, because I don't know you. You'd

3:46

have to talk with you further. But those

3:48

are some thoughts that come to mind. Yeah,

3:51

It reminds me, Jim, how you were

3:53

saying like, we're traumatised, one of the

3:55

responses is that we can go

3:57

numb. and somaticise Anger

4:00

or not let it out. But the

4:02

opposite can happen too. I guess, is

4:04

that if you're a traumatised person, you

4:06

could be very reactive as a way

4:08

of protecting yourself. Yeah, this

4:10

is ritualist degree enactment. So

4:12

the person say anger soy

4:15

because I was angry I

4:17

lived. and And even though

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we've long since I've grown it,

4:21

the first because I am angry, I

4:23

still live. And you're stuck in

4:25

a time warp of things that aren't

4:27

law like you've outgrown it. But

4:29

that primitive place when it gets triggered,

4:31

likewise, the opposite is true. Another

4:33

response, to give external compliance to avoid

4:35

being attacked or abandoned. You passively

4:37

go along with it, you go along

4:39

with it. And it made sense

4:41

when you were a child this way,

4:43

because you knew the price you'd

4:45

have to pay if you challenged it.

4:47

But you get stuck there. and

4:49

you find yourself giving external compliance to

4:51

avoid being attacked or abandoned. Really

4:53

there's survival strategies formed in trauma and

4:55

abandonment. So how to understand that

4:57

with insight, with compassion and with truthfulness,

4:59

we all have growing edges. And

5:01

that's how we go deeper. And how

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is God present in our sincerity

5:05

of working through these things? And I

5:07

would put something else too, lastly,

5:10

is we should always work on these

5:12

things that hurt ourselves and others.

5:14

we We things should. But we need

5:16

to be very real and sincere about

5:18

that. But grounded in an inner peace

5:20

is not dependent on our ability to get

5:22

beyond it. it. it Because we might die

5:24

in the midst of the unresolved because

5:26

infinitely in love with us. and this

5:28

another contribution I think the

5:30

spirituality makes to that

5:32

process. So helpful,

5:34

lovely, yeah. And And Brian's

5:36

obviously very insightful about when

5:39

he gets triggered, so well

5:41

on well on way. Yeah,

5:43

that's very good. He's very aware

5:45

and not only is he aware, but

5:47

he's able to share it with

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us Yeah, so those are the strengths

5:51

that are present in the dilemma

5:54

itself And the sincerity with which he

5:56

was find his way through all

5:58

of this is very good Yeah, we

6:00

wish you well, for sure. wish you

6:02

well, for sure. My question

6:04

is This is a question from Wendy.

6:06

second part My question is about the end of

6:09

the second part of was Jim

6:11

says the day was breaking in the

6:13

disfigured street. because now it it so it

6:15

looks so different in the light of

6:17

this. left He left me with a

6:19

kind of felidiction like a blessing and

6:21

faded on the blowing of the

6:23

horn. like gone. But we're left in the

6:25

aura left in the aura of how we

6:27

were transformed in the presence of the the master. This

6:29

This reminds me of Jacob wrestling with

6:31

the with the The angel departs as day is

6:33

breaking, day but he leaves Jacob with a

6:35

limp and with a blessing, and and Jacob

6:37

realizes he has had an encounter with

6:39

God. had an encounter Jim, do you

6:41

have any thoughts about this in light of the

6:44

poem? in light of the Yes, I do have

6:46

some thoughts about this this lot of

6:48

lot of the poem. Very good. there's this compound

6:50

ghost leads them to leads him really, and

6:52

really in all tying in all the mystics

6:54

that he quotes throughout the poem. This

6:57

and Jesus, Jesus and but you a

6:59

compound, math is a compound the mystical and

7:01

he leads him with a

7:03

and he So Jacob wrestles with

7:05

the angel, So he comes

7:07

away limping. with the angel thoughts. comes

7:09

away I come away

7:12

limping away limping I limp in my

7:14

powerlessness my powerlessness in what was given abide

7:16

in what was given to me

7:18

when the angel wrestled with me. it was

7:20

It was when it was actually

7:23

happening, it was It was

7:25

celestial. To I Do I mean it was like a struggle, like

7:28

a divine intimacy in the struggle?

7:30

And it it left me limping

7:32

in my unawareness. But

7:34

because I'm aware aware of my

7:36

unawareness, my limping graces me. a

7:38

saying in Buddhism that the master limps.

7:40

Another way of looking at

7:42

it this way it this master master

7:45

But the master is not

7:47

handicapped by the limping. limping.

7:49

Because the master knows just limping.

7:51

Why be Why be handicapped by it? Why are

7:53

we handicapped by and you have

7:56

your you I have limping, have mine.

7:58

the flesh in the have all have... God says

8:00

leave it there, that's where you learn

8:02

to depend on my mercy, which is

8:05

at the heart of the poem. Why

8:07

does our limping embarrass us? We think

8:09

it has the authority to name who

8:12

we are, especially if other people can

8:14

see our limp. For example, poor impulse

8:16

control with anger. Thomas Burton once said,

8:19

whenever we are discouraged about a fall,

8:21

like we fall short of what we

8:23

know we're called to be, and we

8:26

get discouraged by it. He said, we

8:28

should always reflect on discouragement because it

8:30

reveals our secret agenda, a holy me.

8:33

See how you or you or you

8:35

could do something like this I get

8:37

but me did this so every time

8:40

the brokenness is revealed it's The crust

8:42

of the wave of my ongoing work

8:44

on myself because I'm the moral imperative

8:46

I should work on it this way

8:49

But even more, see, do I put

8:51

my trust in the love that's infinitely

8:53

in love with me in the midst

8:56

of my inability to get past it?

8:58

Or do I put my trust in

9:00

whether or not I want to be

9:03

able to get past it before the

9:05

buzzer goes off and I die? That's

9:07

at the heart of this poem, too,

9:10

is where's the trust lie in this?

9:12

Yeah. Well, it seems the way that

9:14

people are asking the questions that trust

9:17

lies in that deeper place. Yes, exactly.

9:19

It's catching. Yeah, really. The next question

9:21

is from Cheryl, and she asks, why

9:24

should Buddhists and their Buddha be included

9:26

in a discussion on infinity in God,

9:28

when Buddhists do not even believe that

9:31

God or gods are capable of such

9:33

a thing, and have their own bizarre

9:35

doctrine about some sort of calmer rebirths

9:37

over and over again, but they perform

9:40

all of this themselves somehow, and do

9:42

not. believe, therefore, have no faith, that

9:44

gods or god are capable of doing

9:47

this even for themselves or for it,

9:49

which is what they sometimes call the

9:51

God of the Christians. I also have

9:54

another related question, and it is about

9:56

referring to teachers as masters. How can

9:58

people who refer to Jesus and God

10:01

God be tolerated tolerated

10:03

when they themselves. expect

10:05

or expect people to honour

10:07

their leader by by referring to

10:09

him or her as question. That's

10:12

one way of looking at it, is the way way of

10:14

looking at it, taught to way when

10:16

people are taught to look at it

10:18

that way. flesh and became flesh and

10:20

dwelt among us, of God of God and

10:22

Jesus so so on. then you you have

10:24

like Buddhism and Hinduism. that are are referred to

10:26

in the poem The Lord poem of the Lord

10:28

and the Buddha. the Here's the way

10:30

I was taught by Merton, and

10:32

I think that's how I was taught by it.

10:34

And you can consider this. You

10:36

don't have to see it this way.

10:39

it. You is the way I learned

10:41

it from Thomas this. You don't have to

10:43

were all persons created by

10:45

God in the image and likeness

10:47

of God. There are all

10:49

worth, all that God is

10:51

worth, and in the without God,

10:54

likeness of God. That's what means to

10:56

be a person. be a person. Next, we're

10:58

given in nature. It's capable

11:00

of seeing capable of seeing that it

11:02

in accepting it in love. of

11:04

the And the mystery of the is

11:06

fallen. nature is fallen. fallen. And so

11:08

we've fallen out of so we've fallen

11:10

out of this divinity of ourself

11:13

and our nothingness without God like

11:15

trying to be like God

11:17

without God, a semester of the

11:19

And so in the so in the

11:21

way we're kind of trapped by

11:23

that. that. So what religion is

11:25

about, see see salvation. Saved from what?

11:27

Saved from that. I be How

11:29

can I be saved from that?

11:31

we And so is the we have

11:33

then of this. the universality of

11:35

this, and so we're saved by

11:37

it, in it the Salvik act occurs. So

11:39

cultural the Christian which the of

11:41

this is Jesus. It's Jesus, the Lord

11:43

us in the Christian

11:45

dispensation the Lord is Jesus. It's

11:48

the Lord Jesus the Lord

11:50

Jesus? I'm a Christian, I'm a

11:52

Lord Jesus. It's the Jesus. And in mystical

11:54

mystical Catholicism, which we're

11:56

doing here at at TSL, is

11:58

mystical Christianity. Christianity. that. And he was

12:01

a Christian, he was a devout Christian.

12:03

And Judaism is given as Torah. And

12:05

the prophet, they don't believe in the

12:07

Messiah, it's the chosen people and the

12:09

Passover, and they live it this way.

12:11

And it's given to them in the

12:13

Jewish dispensation of divinity, of realizing that.

12:16

And there's Jewish mysticism, Kabbalah, the Einsaw,

12:18

the uncreated. And Hinduism, it's the yogi.

12:20

I am all that God is in

12:22

my nothingness without God namisty. This way.

12:24

And the yogi is the person who

12:26

is abitually stabilized in that. That's why

12:28

to be in the presence of the

12:30

yogi is to be in the presence

12:32

of God because they've died to their...

12:35

ego. This is why Richard Ror says,

12:37

this is why when the realized yogi

12:39

dies, the ashram is empty. Until the

12:41

next realized yogi appears. See, the next

12:43

person is deathless and is God's manifested

12:45

present. And letting helping you to see

12:47

the same is true of you. And

12:49

the Buddha, when he turned the wheel

12:51

of the darma, the free all sentient

12:54

beings from suffering. There's truly, it's not

12:56

theistic that there's like a god that

12:58

creates, but it's the divinity of the

13:00

immediacy of the phenomenal world itself as

13:02

boundaryless, Buddha nature. If you're interested in

13:04

this approach, Thomas Burton has two books

13:06

on this, writes deeply Christian way. One

13:08

is Zen in the Birds of Appatite.

13:10

and mystics and Zen masters. Those are

13:12

the two works on Buddhism. That's where

13:15

he died. He went to meet at

13:17

the Holiness, the Dalai Lama. The Tiknad

13:19

Han came from Vietnam to meet with

13:21

him. He had such a deep sense.

13:23

He, Dt Suzuki, the Zen scholar, wrote

13:25

him a letter. It's in the front

13:27

of Zen in the Birds of Epitite.

13:29

And he says, when I read your

13:31

Zen stories about enlightenmentment, about a person's

13:34

awakened, something leaps off the page of

13:36

me and says this is true. And

13:38

I'd like to know if I as

13:40

a Christian could talk with you as

13:42

a Buddhist. our common

13:44

ground. Christianity is not

13:46

Buddhism. Buddhism isn't

13:48

Christianity. But the truth

13:50

of each truth of each

13:53

is in holiness. It's in

13:55

the holiness of the

13:57

liberated person. I

13:59

also have an audio

14:01

video set called Noble

14:03

Noble Truths in the

14:05

Buddha and the

14:07

Heart of the Gospel

14:09

This way, because been so

14:12

affected by this this.

14:14

myself these lineages. This

14:16

isn't for everybody. There's

14:18

no need for

14:20

it. no I find

14:22

it it. But I find it

14:24

I find it helpful.

14:26

I So it's not

14:28

bizarre. So seems not

14:30

us that we don't understand it. It's

14:33

profound, actually. We have so much

14:35

to learn from each other. And

14:37

the last question is about being a master.

14:40

We have so the word learn from each

14:42

this way. the last question,

14:44

oh, about being say Yeah, they use

14:46

a poet was a master.

14:48

this way. He was was a

14:51

But he didn't walk around saying, a didn't

14:53

walk around saying a little

14:55

more respect, I'm I'm a master. Please

14:57

genuinely go the room. the room. He's masterful

14:59

in his fidelity to what's transformed

15:01

him. him. was ironic about

15:03

the master. about the put it in

15:05

Christian terms in Christian terms or Bakhti Yoga How

15:07

can I learn to die of love

15:09

at the hands of love of love

15:12

left to me but love? to

15:14

me but love? that's the the

15:16

master. And that's who these mystics are. are.

15:18

the Christian of God, the

15:20

Buddhist dispensation of God, the Hindu dispensation

15:22

of God. So So the way I

15:24

was taught. taught, to see it not everyone sees

15:27

it that way, but I find it helpful. it helpful.

15:29

Yeah, thank you for sharing that, Jim.

15:31

Yeah, from the sounds the sounds of what

15:33

you're saying to too, the master never demand

15:35

to be called master. would be be other people. No,

15:38

it would be would to him. You can can

15:40

call him master, because he is the

15:42

master. Yeah. But the master what? The The master,

15:44

no no one here but God. same is

15:46

true of you. See, true of you. of the

15:48

It's the divinity of the immediacy of

15:50

everything You realized. together in You wanna sit

15:52

together in silence, I'll ring the

15:54

bell and we'll sit guide you I'll guide

15:56

you along. That's what all these

15:59

mystics are about. When you really

16:01

look at them, they're trying to

16:03

help us discern intimate mysterious language

16:05

applies to us. That's what's so

16:07

beautiful about these questions. See, they're

16:09

so heartfelt because it accessed us.

16:11

It's the intimate immediacy of the

16:13

unexplainable, like shining out from our

16:16

heart. And all the world religions

16:18

carry that this way, I think.

16:20

And also every religion, including Christianity,

16:22

has idiots in it. to, you

16:24

know, it means a lot of

16:26

Catholics, or you can lose your

16:28

faith in church, so that's what

16:30

it's like. Thank you, Jim. And

16:33

a question from Joe. On the

16:35

afterlife, Jim repeats frequently, we don't

16:37

die, nobody dies. My rational mind

16:39

struggles with this, life after death

16:41

idea. The key to eternal life

16:43

feels to me to be in

16:45

the eternal present, so the idea

16:47

of after is hard to reconcile.

16:50

Appreciate I might be reaching the

16:52

limits of what my brain can

16:54

get itself around. But feel that

16:56

life and seeking meaning on earth

16:58

is still worthwhile, even if it

17:00

stops at the end. Here's a

17:02

good question. Yeah. About life and,

17:04

you know, Maureen and I lived

17:07

here for 30 years. And when

17:09

we were together for 30 years,

17:11

it was amazing. In house hospital,

17:13

she died right here in the

17:15

living of her ashes right on

17:17

the table over there. So here's

17:19

the point. We were together for

17:22

30 years, but after she died,

17:24

she wasn't here with me anymore.

17:26

But after she died, she's in

17:28

eternal bliss in God, because she's

17:30

eternal. So the after applies to

17:32

in time. It's like me, I'm

17:34

still alive, but I'm 81 years

17:36

old. kind of the edge of

17:39

this thing here. And so I'm

17:41

still alive. I get up every

17:43

morning, go to bed every night.

17:45

But the day's going to come

17:47

when you'll be able to say

17:49

about me. after Jim

17:51

Finley died. you can

17:53

you can say

17:56

it because I'll

17:58

be dead. But don't

18:00

don't worry about

18:02

it because you're

18:04

next. next. is

18:06

a temporary arrangement. So

18:09

it's after in the sense

18:11

of which it's the the afterlife, meaning

18:13

it's the deathless life of

18:15

infinite glory hidden with Christ

18:17

and God forever. Because now

18:19

it's true, now now but veiled.

18:21

That's what the mystics are

18:23

about. It's veiled but real. but

18:25

real. But when we die after

18:28

we physically die, unveiled, it's unveiled forever. Well,

18:30

the mystics are saying saying sometimes

18:32

now it's unveiled in a

18:34

veiled way. See, it's already true,

18:36

which is the present moment, It's the

18:38

of the present moment, but it's

18:41

already true in but way that

18:43

I can't explain. a veiled way that I

18:45

can't would agree, so

18:47

that every moment every moment

18:49

the key to eternal life feels to me. feels

18:51

to to be in the in

18:53

present and that is that

18:55

is an important of living of

18:58

living is open to the

19:00

eternal present. present, but it's not the

19:02

end of of it Yeah, there's a

19:04

by by Claude Tremont, on of

19:07

Hebrew of Hebrew thought. what

19:09

is. eternity is. See, for for God,

19:11

the moment in which God said, let

19:13

there be light. light, and this in

19:15

this present moment that we're talking.

19:17

talking, for it's the same the same moment.

19:20

That's eternity, and we're in

19:22

it. The egos caught the the centrifugal

19:24

force of time, time we're spending on it time,

19:26

but really in the deep in

19:28

the of our depths of point of

19:30

the turning world, point the turning world,

19:32

this that which never passes away,

19:34

this endlessly away this all this

19:37

endlessly passing away. this And so

19:39

we can't explain it And so day

19:41

by day consciousness, it but in

19:43

deep meditative but in deep

19:45

clear, but it's clear

19:47

unexplainably, so we

19:49

can't explain it. can't explain it. Wonderful.

19:52

Thank you. Anything

19:54

else I can't answer. I

19:56

can't answer. Very

19:59

good. Turning to

20:01

the Mystics will continue

20:04

in a moment. Okay,

20:06

our next question is

20:09

from Sandra. I would

20:11

like to continue to

20:14

reread and consider

20:16

these Okay, our next question is from

20:18

Sandra. I would like to continue

20:20

to reread and consider these poems. Did

20:23

you do that with this body of work

20:25

to arrive at your very helpful insights? use the

20:27

you use the for Alexio?

20:29

You know, know, I was first introduced

20:31

to four quartets by Thomas the

20:33

the monastery's is 18 years old, I've been

20:35

been reading it ever since. since.

20:37

And same with these other with these other

20:40

down at the cross and Eckhart. like Like, you've been

20:42

to my home home here, know, you my

20:44

library here, have have walls, floor to

20:46

ceiling, bookshelves with the mystics of the

20:48

world of the world religions. You can open

20:50

any one of them at random, open

20:52

to any page and read it

20:54

out loud, because everything they say counts.

20:56

loud, Likewise, what I think I'm writing

20:58

or teaching. what I I'm

21:00

always doing is I'm reading the

21:03

text. always doing is then I say,

21:05

the what images or stories could

21:07

I use could I make

21:09

this more accessible without

21:11

watering it down? it down? And

21:13

then I realized can't do that

21:16

so I have to wait until

21:18

it's given to me to me to

21:20

do that and I write it

21:22

out Mm-hmm. Beautiful. I enjoyed very much,

21:24

and Sandra won't have very

21:26

much, she wrote the question, have

21:28

heard this when she wrote the question,

21:30

but those together those pieces from the

21:32

poem to create the meditation. So I love

21:34

just choosing phrases to meditate on like

21:36

that and the ones that are really

21:39

speaking to you at the time, you

21:41

can just sit with the one phrase.

21:43

phrase. notice how it shows up in all of

21:45

life. life. And by the way, I think in

21:47

this this kind of literature, to personalize

21:49

it, like what helps you to do

21:51

that, How would you say it? would you say it,

21:53

how would you draw a picture of

21:55

it, how would you, the it's the

21:57

one that get to you, know, it's know, it's

22:00

the And how to how to phrase aphorisms this

22:02

way. And way and then how would

22:04

you like doing inner like doing would you then

22:06

take that little would you then take

22:08

that little aphorism and tease it

22:10

out to you to it what comes to

22:12

you to broaden the base of

22:14

it I think way. these questions

22:16

are that way they're deeply personal

22:19

questions that's exactly how they're reading reading

22:21

it, yeah. Yeah, I love I love

22:23

that. You're trying to weave what

22:25

brings you into that deepest state

22:27

of consciousness into your everyday life, then,

22:29

aren't you? so so the what's the

22:31

mechanism that helps you with that

22:34

the most? with I've found I've found saying, you

22:36

in time in time conquered. I've

22:38

been saying that been day and you

22:40

every day and you kind of then notice ways how it

22:42

brings that thought into your daily

22:44

life. daily life. It know, it. It when he

22:46

was the guest, we were doing your daily life. It

22:48

it was a great thing. it. Oh yes, yeah.

22:51

yes, I was listening to I was of

22:53

his to one of his talks on the

22:55

internet. about the He talks about the

22:57

text, like there's the text in so

22:59

there's the text. there's the text

23:01

that but your the text If in your

23:03

experience. it's If it stays on the it's

23:05

it's just words. looking like You know, it's

23:07

almost like looking at the musical score

23:09

of the Fifth Symphony. It's just musical

23:11

score until you play it. play it. And

23:14

so it really matters is the experience

23:16

of the text living in us is

23:18

expressing our experience of God's oneness with

23:20

us. And that's what it's meant to

23:22

do when you read it. It's meant

23:24

to awaken. it. It's meant to that living presence

23:26

of God in us. us. Yes, how

23:28

how does it apply to me and my

23:30

life and where do I experience it? Yeah, beautiful.

23:33

How can I share it? share it? it asking

23:35

out of me? me? do I bear witness to

23:37

it? Is this given to me to do

23:39

so and so on? so on? Yeah, yeah, it's

23:41

so and it's so true what

23:43

you said that these questions really

23:45

highlight this poem reached This poem reached

23:47

into people's lives and brought out

23:50

deeper experiences for them. It's amazing. amazing.

23:52

You know know what else I've learned, too, too is

23:54

that I used to teach high school seniors

23:56

for years and also lecturing around a lot. lecturing

23:58

around a lot. Most gifted students

24:01

aren't the ones that necessarily

24:03

know the answers to all

24:05

the questions. to all the questions.

24:07

It's the question. It's amazing. the question

24:10

the thing. I think. the thing,

24:12

I think. Okay, so School doesn't encourage

24:15

that as much as much as doesn't.

24:17

No, them. No, it don't. No, they don't.

24:19

its own role to play. have

24:21

to to you have to, You have

24:23

to doesn't take you all the

24:25

way home. doesn't take you all the way home. Yeah.

24:27

Okay, a a question from Jennifer. My

24:30

My question relates to the gift of

24:32

tears. Recently in Recently my practice, this

24:34

gift has been pervasive and leaves me

24:36

feeling raw and vulnerable. This

24:38

is not a problem as long as

24:40

I have time to remain in the inner

24:42

in state, but I'm finding it challenging to

24:44

go about my daily life my so fragile. so

24:46

fragile. want to be open to

24:49

new possibilities but find myself resisting. myself I

24:51

like the idea of learning, growing

24:53

and changing, but there are days it

24:55

feels so impractical. Do you have

24:57

guidance to share on how to get through

24:59

the hard parts? through the hard good

25:01

luck with that. luck mean, that. In the

25:03

mystics, they talk about the gift

25:05

of tears. the gift of tears. And sometimes

25:07

the tears are actually tears

25:10

and what the tears are really

25:12

the being loved without it's being loved like

25:14

the body's crying. The tears

25:16

are actually the body's praying Tears.

25:19

tears. also There's also tears, they're

25:21

not physically tears, but you feel

25:23

the fragility of the tearfulness. The

25:26

Richard Roars book book on the prophets, tears

25:28

of things, of things, the tears of

25:31

God are hidden hidden, you know, depths of

25:33

our broken places. places. And so this is

25:35

universally intimate how we experience all

25:37

of this. all of this. I share a story

25:39

that I was giving this to

25:41

a group of group of nuns. On the retreat, one

25:44

of the nuns raised her hand

25:46

And she she said a lot of of

25:48

sisters, all know me know years and

25:50

they they I'm not an emotional

25:52

person. person. But some reason, when

25:54

I listen to you talk, I want to

25:56

cry. talk, I want to cry. She said, and

25:59

I I well, Well, you know what,

26:01

when I'm talking, I want to

26:03

cry I want to cry. Because it's it's right

26:05

at the edge of the sweetness

26:07

that can't be said. It's

26:09

things that deep things we down

26:11

we already know, but we

26:14

tend to forget. But then but

26:16

then were reminded of it it

26:18

that it never forgets us us

26:20

and removed by it. Now Now the extent

26:22

to which it's physically physically you have to

26:24

see what that's about and work with

26:26

that and and not an issue at all. and

26:28

You just accept it an issue at way. So

26:30

I wouldn't know unless I had talked

26:32

to you for a while. But

26:34

spiritually speaking, I I would put it that

26:36

way. a while. But about tears,

26:39

you know. I would put it

26:41

that way, about tears. Yeah, wow, beautiful.

26:43

Such tender places we're going today.

26:46

today. Okay, well we're coming to

26:48

well we're coming to the end

26:50

of our episode. have just a

26:52

couple of final questions And a few people

26:54

few people sent a comment about

26:56

this one, Jim. small It's a

26:58

small matter of a word East Coker.

27:00

the very end, the two books,

27:02

one being the one. one on your

27:05

podcast that I have on

27:07

this program, both both this

27:09

word. petrol, which which is a

27:11

seabird, and yet I've heard you

27:13

use use petrol the stuff of ships. of

27:15

ships. through wave cry, the the wind cry, the

27:18

the vast waters of the the

27:20

the porpoise, and in my end is

27:22

my beginning. is my Yeah, so

27:24

the question is question is the word

27:26

petrol. Yes, several Several people pointed this

27:28

out. out. Yes, yeah. Here, this is my this

27:30

is my it. You know, when You

27:32

know, when I've read four quartets

27:35

over the years, I've

27:37

gone to the dictionary a

27:39

lot. a lot. naming for his because he's

27:41

so he's so you know I mean?

27:43

He's so mean, he's so learned. He just expands

27:45

your your vocabulary. Here in America,

27:48

I thought a petroleum. I don't know the

27:50

bird I don't know the bird I saw

27:52

it, I when I saw it, I didn't

27:54

notice the spelling As a bird. So I appreciate so I

27:56

appreciate the people pointing that out. It just so

27:58

just so happens, another insight. that I had.

28:00

It just so happens that my

28:03

misreading about petroleum and oil works.

28:05

It works because it has to

28:07

do with the war and the

28:09

razor wire and the wars and

28:11

the battle, the space between the

28:13

wars. But it just so happens,

28:15

that's not the putting metaphor that

28:18

he had in mind when he

28:20

used it. works in other contexts.

28:22

And that's why it's always good

28:24

to be corrected like this, like

28:26

footnotes, to kind of not be

28:28

unwittingly incorrect. And as a final

28:30

thought this way too, it's good

28:33

to be as correct as we

28:35

can, it's important. But we could

28:37

be completely correct at that level

28:39

and miss the whole poem. So

28:41

here we're giving, and returning to

28:43

the Mystics podcast, we're giving an

28:46

emphasis to the transformative stirrings of

28:48

the divinity of life in a

28:50

very sublime, delicate language this way.

28:52

But it's good to be as

28:54

clear as we can. Like it

28:56

got me thinking, really I live

28:58

at the ocean here. And so

29:01

there's seagulls around and appellicons going

29:03

by information and pigeons and crows

29:05

and pigeons built a nest on

29:07

my little porch behind my flower

29:09

pot. Little baby pigeons are there.

29:11

And so it's so good to

29:13

be aware of nature. So that's

29:16

how he's tying it in. Because

29:18

don't forget there's the time, sequential

29:20

time, but there's the primordial time

29:22

of the change of the seasons.

29:24

And then hidden primordial time is

29:26

the eternality of God embodied in

29:28

primordial time and transcending it. So

29:31

it's an important point really. But

29:33

anyway, I'm grateful now I know

29:35

Petrol. Yeah, isn't that fun? The

29:37

way our listeners care so much.

29:39

I love that. we got photos

29:41

of Petrols and things to Petrols.

29:44

We'll never make that mistake again.

29:46

Thank you everyone who sent those

29:48

in. One last question from Diane.

29:50

It's been said and argued that

29:52

T .S. Eliot was anti -Semitic. I

29:54

find it so. had to believe

29:56

from the poetry itself and if

29:59

it were true it make me

30:01

very sad given that he lived

30:03

through the atrocities of World War atrocities

30:05

He does speak of II. He does

30:07

Can that be one of them? Can

30:09

I would be grateful if you

30:11

could speak to this. if

30:14

you could speak to this. Yes, yes it's true. when

30:16

you read his life, anti-Semitism. some people

30:18

claim toward the end of his

30:20

life, he moved beyond of his Some

30:22

don't know how much he did. it.

30:24

But real important point, really. a

30:26

real important point really. The

30:28

tragic... extent of anti -semitic

30:30

sentiments within the Christian

30:32

tradition. Christian tradition. we were

30:35

doing MacTelda earlier. were doing McTell

30:37

saying all this beautiful stuff, then she says,

30:39

stuff, then she who lives in all

30:42

Jews' hearts, lives in and so is hearts,

30:44

and so blood be upon us and

30:46

upon her children. us So you

30:48

see this children. So you the church has

30:50

come a long way has come a long

30:52

way this growing this apologizing for it, because is

30:54

the Christ. is the Christ. So whatever it

30:56

means to be God, to be means

30:58

to be us, is means to be

31:00

a singularity of who we are

31:02

as the of who we are as the beloved. way,

31:04

looking at it, Jesus was a

31:06

Jewish mystic. was a Jewish mystic. And a

31:09

lot of of from sayings quoting

31:11

the Psalms, know, the Psalms. You

31:13

know, he a devout practicing Jew. So the church

31:15

come a long way in acknowledging this

31:17

and working towards it. There's a

31:19

lot of Jewish of Jewish going on. on.

31:21

When I was at the at the Abraham

31:24

Joshua Heschel came, the Jewish came, the

31:26

philosopher to visit philosopher, to And I was

31:28

deeply touched by Martin deeply touched by Martin

31:30

that thou is the one who fills

31:32

the entire horizon of your being. of

31:34

But it's true, it's just a

31:36

sad truth about Christianity. about It's working

31:38

towards it. And there's another way to

31:40

say it too. another we

31:42

don't see, we don't see. Martin says, it's very

31:44

difficult to see our sumptive horizons.

31:46

very It's very hard to consciously

31:48

see what we're assuming. like And there's

31:50

like societal prejudice, see and we

31:52

don't see it because it's atmospherically

31:54

woven into the assumptions of our

31:57

very society. And so if And so if

31:59

you're not a... Christian, you're a pagan, a

32:01

pagan, you you're a Muslim, a if you're

32:03

not if you're an infidel. you're an This

32:05

has to do with sexual orientation, do

32:07

has to do with physical orientation, has

32:09

easy to see it when we can

32:11

see it, it's but when it's woven

32:13

into our various assumptions, it's it's harder

32:15

to see, and I think T .S.

32:17

Eliot's like that. to so I all

32:19

broken. like that. And so that we're all broken. that we

32:21

see and we work on, and there's the

32:23

brokenness that we don't see and we don't

32:25

work on it because we don't see it.

32:27

But But God sees all of it and

32:29

guides us and encourages us to see more

32:31

and more and more more at the same time

32:34

accepting us as infinitely loved as all that

32:36

we don't see. in all that we don't see.

32:38

So it's a be good to be aware of

32:40

that. to be aware of that. Yeah.

32:42

So it's good to know that the to know that

32:44

the church best to apologise

32:46

for the way it promoted

32:48

for the way it promoted we would

32:50

never condone. would never condone

32:53

T.S. Elliot bringing those ideas

32:55

into anything. we We can also see

32:57

he was a broken human being and

32:59

we can value the we can he

33:01

was able to bring us was able to it's

33:03

a very good point. it's a show you how

33:05

I see I'm sure how I see

33:07

know, know, there's Martin that

33:09

German Heidecker, the German powerful, beautiful

33:12

philosopher, that he supported

33:14

Hitler. he supported Hitler

33:16

and Aatsia. And some people say

33:18

that he... beyond it, some people

33:20

say that he didn't. But he

33:22

the point, But the fatal flaw. The

33:25

fatal flaw negate the gift. the

33:27

gift. a fatally flawed, gifted

33:29

person. person. so so should acknowledge

33:31

the fatal flaw flaw, and the same

33:33

time, not overlook it, but at

33:35

the same time, it doesn't cancel

33:37

out the light that shined out

33:39

of the broken place. of the broken

33:41

place. Richard has this great book,

33:43

book, Richard Raw, We Do With Evil,

33:45

where he talks about the

33:47

burden of sin of sin? the weight

33:50

of glory being collective, that

33:52

it's the collective consciousness that that

33:54

sin hides it's in in you that

33:56

you I found that I found that

33:58

book so helpful. to help say

34:00

that? I was see that. enclave,

34:03

just very Catholic. I very Catholic. once, I taught

34:05

I remember Jesuit high I taught

34:07

in a Jesuit high school in

34:09

the inner city, I was

34:11

still very Catholic. And we And we

34:13

the Methodist Church across the street.

34:15

the and I thought it was evil. it was

34:17

evil, because they were they were

34:19

a Methodist. You know, Peter and and

34:21

up on this rock, I would build

34:23

my church. And I'm in a place where

34:25

where heretics And I And I thought, oh my I

34:27

know, seriously. So we're all, to

34:29

be aware of this, of all trying to outgrow

34:31

it and help each other outgrow it. it and

34:34

That everyone belongs,

34:36

is it. Everyone belongs, is me of

34:38

you were talking about God's tears me

34:40

the bottom of everything. These about isn't

34:42

it? It's true. bottom of

34:44

everything. These are the to close, why,

34:46

we thought we'd read a

34:49

lovely poem that we we'd read a

34:51

lovely poem that we got from

34:53

Tim, inspired by the podcast,

34:55

so. I'll just I'll just read

34:57

it. I hope I do it it Tim, as

34:59

Tim. I'll just read it. then read it. to

35:01

comment before I read it? want to beautiful. before

35:04

I read it? Jim? No, just it's

35:07

beautiful. Okay. Coffee, sun, wicker

35:09

chair, the call of the of

35:11

the hawk. The words, the

35:14

words, the words. the words, do Do

35:16

not pour out of me. It It must be

35:18

human to want more than what is given. than

35:20

what is Look closer. closer.

35:22

Yet this too the law of

35:24

of love from the land. land.

35:26

I have have only to cultivate the

35:28

mysteries of the higher life, dare

35:30

I follow my animal feet to

35:32

the place uncreated where the soul

35:35

has never been wounded. been

35:37

where the belly Where the eats itself.

35:39

eats itself, the becomes a

35:41

poem. The empty page

35:44

trills like an unmarked grave an

35:46

a sun -baked hill. a upon

35:48

which I regard the thoughtless sky. the

35:51

see my own face in face

35:53

in a clouds. or clouds. Beautiful

35:57

Williams. Thanks Thanks for sharing that

35:59

with us. us. Yeah, it's a gift. Yeah, yeah.

36:01

And Jim, thank thank you for this tremendous

36:03

season. We've had such great feedback.

36:05

know it felt a little risky to

36:07

focus on a poet, a but it

36:09

seems to have gone really well

36:11

and the insights you've given us have

36:13

just been life just So thank you.

36:16

So for risking it with us. it with

36:18

It was a gift to share it.

36:20

So thank you. Gifted me. So Thank you,

36:22

too. me, thank you a big thanks

36:24

a to always to Dorothy and Corey

36:26

us in the background. We'll

36:29

see you next season. next

36:31

season. Yes. Thank you

36:33

for listening to this episode

36:35

of Turning to the Mystics,

36:37

a you for listening to this

36:39

episode of by the Mystics, for a

36:42

podcast created by the Centre

36:44

for Action and planning to do We're

36:46

planning to do episodes that answer

36:48

your questions. So if if you

36:50

have a question, please email us

36:52

at us at cac .org or send

36:54

us a us a voicemail. All of

36:56

this information can be found

36:58

in the show notes. found We'll

37:00

see you again soon. We'll see you

37:02

again soon. Do you feel

37:04

called to walk a more

37:07

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