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3:03

An Undeceptions Podcast.

3:09

Well, dreams, they

3:11

feel real while we're in them, right? It's

3:13

only when we wake up that we realize something

3:15

was actually strange. Let

3:18

me ask you a question. You never really

3:20

remember the beginning of a dream, do

3:22

you? You always wind up right

3:24

in the middle of what's going on. I guess, yeah. So

3:28

how did we end up here? Well,

3:29

we just came from the, uh... Think

3:32

about it, Ariadne. How did you get here?

3:36

Where are you right now? We're

3:41

dreaming. You're actually in the middle of

3:43

the workshop right now, sleeping. This

3:45

is your first lesson in shared dreaming. Stay calm. That's

3:49

a clip from the 2010 science

3:52

fiction blockbuster Inception, starring

3:55

Leonardo DiCaprio and Elliot

3:57

Page, known at the time as Ellen Page.

3:59

In the clip we just heard, Paige's

4:02

character Ariadne has unknowingly

4:05

been transported into the dream

4:08

of master criminal Dominic Cobb, played

4:10

by DiCaprio, who gives her a

4:12

crash course on how to infiltrate

4:14

the dreams of others via dream

4:17

sharing. With this dream tech,

4:20

DiCaprio and his cronies are able to glean

4:22

sensitive information from the subconsciousness

4:25

of their victims, using it to commit

4:28

corporate theft. Conception, although

4:30

dense and at times confusing,

4:33

is now considered, at least by director

4:35

Mark, as one of cinema's greatest

4:38

achievements. Even Rotten Tomatoes,

4:40

the notoriously harsh review

4:43

aggregation site, said it

4:45

was smart, innovative and

4:47

thrilling and succeeds viscerally

4:50

as well as intellectually. This

4:53

critical and cultural acclaim is in no

4:55

small part due to its focus on the mysterious

4:58

phenomenon of

4:59

dreams.

5:03

From antiquity, right through

5:05

the middle ages, the Enlightenment and

5:07

on into the modern era, humanity

5:10

has asked the question, why

5:12

do we dream? And

5:14

do dreams mean something? Both

5:17

Islam and Christianity have examples

5:20

of revelatory dreams in

5:22

their scriptures. Buddhism and Hinduism

5:24

view dreams as part of the path to

5:26

enlightenment. The Jewish Talmud

5:28

states, a dream which is not interpreted

5:31

is like a letter which is not read.

5:33

Yeah, I'm a bit

5:35

skeptical. I know there are plenty

5:38

of dreams in the Bible, and

5:40

so as someone who really

5:42

does believe the Bible, I'm kind of stuck

5:45

with dreams, at least the ones that

5:47

are in scripture. But do dreams

5:49

continue to have significance? Psychologically,

5:53

physically, spiritually? Nah.

5:57

Maybe.

5:58

Probably. I'm John Dickson. And

6:00

this is Undeceptions.

6:18

This season of Undeceptions is sponsored by

6:20

Zondervan Academic. Get discounts

6:23

on master lectures, video courses

6:25

and exclusive samples of their books at

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zondervanacademic.com forward

6:30

slash undeceptions. Don't

6:32

forget to write Undeceptions. Each

6:35

episode here at Undeceptions we explore some

6:38

aspect of life, faith, philosophy,

6:40

history, science, culture or ethics that's

6:43

either much misunderstood or mostly

6:45

forgotten. And with the help of people who

6:47

know what they're talking about, we're trying to undeceive

6:50

ourselves and let the truth out. Undeceptions

7:08

Okay, I'm

7:09

usually in the middle of my university

7:11

campus or sometimes high school

7:14

and I look at my timetable and

7:16

realise I have an exam that day for a class

7:18

I'd forgotten I was taking. I

7:20

haven't been to any of the lectures, I haven't handed

7:23

in any of my assignments. I know nothing.

7:25

I tell you, the

7:27

sense of dread I feel even recounting

7:30

this is palpable. That's

7:33

producer Kayleigh describing a recurring

7:36

dream or nightmare that

7:38

she often has. It's actually a really

7:40

common one. One recent survey

7:42

of 2000 people conducted by an American

7:45

betting company found that dreaming

7:47

about being unprepared for a test

7:50

was the fourth most common recurring

7:53

dream in the US. About 34% of

7:56

survey participants had had this dream. for

8:00

Newsweek, Dreams expert Delphi

8:02

Ellis said that the exam dream

8:05

is particularly common for people who

8:07

work to deadlines,

8:10

or are under significant pressure.

8:12

I guess

8:14

that's my fault.

8:22

But are our dreams full of messages

8:25

and warnings? For

8:27

most of human history, that's been the common

8:29

view. The ancient texts of many

8:31

cultures contain dream accounts

8:33

that are interpreted as omens or

8:36

communications from the supernatural world, from

8:39

the gods, the ancestors, or the spirits. In

8:41

the 19th century, dreams began to be studied

8:44

more scientifically, sort of. Perhaps

8:46

there's something going on in our brains

8:49

that causes us to dream. Then

8:51

comes along Sigmund Freud and

8:53

his approach to dream analysis, coded

8:55

versions of wish fulfilment, which

8:58

some psychologists and sleep specialists now

9:00

actually think is just a blip, a distraction

9:03

that took us away from the really

9:05

scientific advancement of the study of

9:07

dreams.

9:08

The problem about dreaming has been that it's

9:10

been the preserver of sort of psychoanalysts

9:13

for a long period of time, which of course,

9:16

with the best will of the world, can be only described as

9:18

a subjective science. And I think many

9:21

neuroscientists have stayed away

9:23

from dreaming because we haven't

9:25

really had the tools to look at it very

9:28

carefully. That's changing.

9:30

And so, for example, that's Professor

9:32

Russell Foster, director of the Sleep

9:35

and Circadian Neuroscience Institute

9:37

at the University of Oxford in the UK. Russell

9:40

is an expert on all things sleep

9:43

and a brilliant communicator on the subject, as

9:45

you can hear. He's delivered TED

9:48

talks and even coached Hollywood

9:50

actors on how to harness sleep

9:52

for peak performance. Check out

9:54

the book in the show notes for that. Last year,

9:56

Russell published the book titled Lifetime.

9:59

two words, the new science

10:02

of the body clock and how it can revolutionize

10:05

your sleep and health. He's

10:07

also the co-author of the Oxford Very

10:10

Short Introduction to Sleep, which is

10:12

highly recommended. In fact,

10:14

my darling Buff has become sick of my

10:17

sideline obsession with sleep science.

10:20

And so, for example, with brain imaging studies,

10:22

you can start to sort of

10:24

look at the sleeping brain during different

10:27

REM versus non-REM states. And it's

10:29

during REM sleep

10:29

where we have our most vivid and complicated

10:32

dreams. So we said that in slow

10:34

wave sleep, slow wave non-REM sleep, we're

10:37

processing information. But what's going

10:39

on during REM sleep where we're having our dreams? And

10:41

the consensus at the moment seems to

10:43

be that we're processing some

10:46

of our emotional issues. So

10:49

what's turned out to be fascinating, and there

10:51

were some lovely studies that looked at

10:54

dream content in New

10:56

Yorkers after the Twin

10:58

Towers were destroyed by terrorist action.

11:01

And they weren't dreaming about

11:03

planes crashing into skyscrapers,

11:06

which would have been in a sense sort of a recapitulation

11:09

of the event, a post-traumatic stress

11:12

response. But they were having anxiety

11:14

dreams. So for example, being overwhelmed

11:16

by a tsunami or being mugged. And

11:19

so this has led to the suggestion that we're

11:21

dealing with our anxieties. And

11:24

so, for example, some brain imaging studies have

11:26

suggested that information that we've taken

11:28

in during the day sort of temporarily stored

11:30

in the brain in the hippocampus. There's

11:33

a bit of in the brain called the

11:35

amygdala, which is dealing with our emotional

11:37

responses and the neocortex,

11:40

which is sort of keeping our longer

11:42

term memory. And during REM

11:44

sleep, these three structures seem to interact

11:47

and could be processing

11:49

emotional content. And of course, I

11:51

mean, many people get quite anxious about nightmares

11:53

and dreams. And most of the time, you don't need to

11:55

worry about it at all, because it's the brain

11:58

doing what it's supposed to be doing, which making

12:00

sense of a very complicated, often

12:03

emotionally charged world.

12:05

As it turns out, the stage of

12:07

sleep where we dream REM

12:10

sleep, or rapid eye movement sleep,

12:13

is essential for our functioning

12:15

as human beings. According to neuroscientists

12:18

like Foster, the importance of REM

12:20

sleep is really only just starting to

12:22

become clear.

12:23

Okay, so physiologically, what's going

12:26

on in sleep? Tell me what's happening

12:28

in the brain during sleep, and what's happening

12:30

to the body? Okay, so whilst

12:33

we sleep, overall, we are

12:35

obviously not moving around, but

12:38

there are key things going on within the brain.

12:40

So our memory consolidation, our

12:42

ability to take in those facts

12:44

during the day, and then consolidate them to

12:47

memory whilst we're asleep. But it's not just

12:50

the retention of facts. The thing that

12:52

sort of emerged in the past few years is

12:54

that we're processing information. So

12:56

if you want to come up with innovative solutions

12:59

to complex problems, a night of sleep

13:01

can hugely enhance your ability

13:03

to do that. Another thing that's emerged

13:06

in the past few years is the clearance

13:08

of toxins from the brain

13:10

that have built up during the wake state.

13:13

And one particular misfolded protein called

13:16

beta-amyloid, its accumulation within

13:18

the brain has been associated with dementia

13:20

and Alzheimer's. And some very nice studies

13:23

started in the Netherlands showed that

13:25

with relatively small levels

13:27

of sleep deprivation, you could actually detect

13:30

higher levels of beta-amyloid within

13:32

the cerebral spinal fluid and actually

13:34

deposited within the brain. And

13:37

that mechanism might underpin

13:39

the observation that poor sleep, very

13:41

poor sleep in the middle years can

13:44

be a risk factor for dementia and Alzheimer's

13:46

in later years. Now, I wouldn't say poor

13:48

sleep is going to cause dementia, but I think

13:50

it is a risk factor in those individuals who are

13:52

vulnerable. So masses of essential

13:55

stuff going on within the brain. And of course, sleep

13:58

itself is divided into both the... the

14:00

REM and the non-REM cycle.

14:02

That's what I wanted to ask you about, the phases. Talk me

14:04

through the phases of a good night's sleep. So

14:07

we go from a relaxed state and then

14:09

we descend through three stages

14:12

of non-REM sleep into this

14:14

sort of deep, high amplitude,

14:17

slow oscillation, electrical

14:19

waves that you can record from the surface

14:21

of the skull, that represent the

14:24

sum of activity from the brain. And

14:26

it's thought that we

14:28

do most of our sort of memorization

14:31

and the processing of information during deep

14:33

sleep. In fact, deep sleep is heavily

14:35

defended. If we don't, if we're deprived of sleep,

14:38

you actually see the following night when you

14:40

are allowed to sleep much more deep

14:42

sleep. So it's an active to

14:44

defend the process. So the body goes

14:47

and grabs it back the next night, does it? Right?

14:50

Yeah. It's almost, as it were, homeostatically

14:52

controlled. And then, of course, you jump

14:54

from the deep sleep, stage three

14:57

non-REM sleep. You go through the stages

14:59

and then you hit this rapid eye movement or

15:01

REM sleep, where in fact, the lateral

15:04

activity in the brain looks like you're

15:06

awake, except for the fact that

15:08

your eyes are closed and your eyes

15:10

under your eyelids are moving very

15:12

rapidly under the lids, hence the

15:15

definition of rapid eye movement sleep. But

15:17

also during REM sleep, you're paralyzed

15:20

from the neck downwards. So

15:23

you can't move. And it's thought

15:25

that because during REM sleep we have

15:27

our most vivid and complicated dreams,

15:30

we're actually inhibiting our stuff

15:32

from moving around and perhaps even acting

15:34

out those dreams. There are conditions, for example,

15:37

where that paralysis doesn't occur, called

15:39

REM behavioral disorder. And where

15:41

that doesn't occur, people have thrashed out some

15:44

husbands have even killed their wives under

15:46

those circumstances. So it's actually

15:49

a really extraordinary cycle. And

15:51

you can go through five, sometimes

15:54

six of these non-REM REM

15:56

cycles every night because the

15:58

cycle takes about seven minutes. 70 to 90 minutes

16:01

to complete, going from the REM state

16:03

back down through the non-REM

16:06

and then back up to REM again. So it's

16:09

a complicated set of interactions

16:11

within the brain involving all the brain

16:13

neurotransmitter systems and

16:16

an interaction between multiple brain structures.

16:19

There are plenty of studies that

16:21

now confirm just how important

16:23

a good night's sleep is for good

16:26

health. Several months ago, an article

16:28

published in the journal PLOS One

16:31

found sleep quality, not just

16:33

quantity, influenced a raft of

16:36

quality of life factors, including overall

16:38

happiness, work stress, and even cardio

16:41

health. Another recent study published in

16:43

the journal Sleep Science linked

16:45

poor sleep with increased symptoms

16:48

of anxiety and depression. Sleep

16:51

is a constantly evolving field

16:53

of study, more than we can possibly cover in

16:55

this episode. So we've linked an

16:58

article in the show notes that summarizes some

17:00

of the latest findings. And again, I can't

17:03

recommend highly enough Foster's book,

17:05

a very short introduction to sleep. If

17:08

you're an Undesceptions Plus subscriber, we'll

17:10

also release my full interview with

17:12

Dr. Russell Foster, which has some

17:15

gold in it about how

17:17

and why we sleep and how

17:19

to get

17:19

better at it. And he resolves

17:21

a long standing debate in the

17:23

Dixon household over the ideal

17:26

room temperature for good sleep.

17:28

Sorry, sweetheart. I guess the golden

17:31

question and therefore answer is

17:34

around why do we

17:36

need to sleep so much? I

17:38

mean, for physical recovery, I think I

17:40

read in your book, we probably don't need all those hours

17:43

for physical recovery and evolutionarily,

17:46

it's bloomin dangerous

17:49

to be asleep for eight hours. So

17:52

why?

17:53

Well, the last point is

17:55

dangerous to be asleep. Well, actually, it's

17:58

more dangerous to move around. within

18:00

an environment to which you're poorly adapted. And

18:02

I think that's one of the really important

18:05

evolutionary selection pressures for sleep,

18:07

essentially way, way back. We've got

18:09

this internal circadian clock

18:12

and what it's used for

18:15

is to anticipate the different needs of

18:17

the rest of the activity cycle. And

18:19

in a sense, no species is

18:22

equally effective across the 24-hour day. We've

18:24

almost made an evolutionary decision

18:27

to be active at a particular part

18:29

of the day-night cycle. And we've

18:32

evolved specializations to

18:34

allow us to work optimally at that

18:36

time. If you think about an owl,

18:38

it works brilliantly at night. It

18:40

works far less effectively during

18:42

the day. We simply don't have

18:44

the sensory capabilities to function

18:47

optimally, wandering around our environment,

18:50

the natural environment in the darkness. So

18:53

part of the evolutionary pressure,

18:55

I think, for sleep has been actually

18:57

to take us away from moving around

18:59

in an environment to which we're poorly adapted.

19:02

Now, having made that decision of specialization,

19:05

we then say, well, hang on. I've got to do all

19:07

this important biology. So if

19:09

I've been experiencing all this information

19:13

overload during the day, I need to start

19:15

to sort it out. So I park it. And then

19:17

when I'm not moving around and I'm not taking lots more

19:19

information in, I can start to process

19:21

it. So it's sort of compartmentalizing

19:25

stuff in time. And of course, that compartmentalization

19:28

makes it really efficient. We're not flipping backwards

19:30

and forwards endlessly between different

19:32

sorts of physiological states. So

19:35

I think actually we potentially

19:37

could be more vulnerable to predators. We've got

19:39

pretty effective predator,

19:42

you know, anti-avoidance to predators whilst

19:44

we're asleep. But moving around,

19:46

you know, whilst we're asleep and not

19:49

being adapted to that environment could be much

19:51

worse for us. There's

19:52

all sorts of fascinating research being

19:54

done on this type of thing. In Matthew

19:57

Walker's book, Why We Sleep,

19:59

recommended. He has whole chapters

20:02

on the difference between animals and

20:04

their sleep patterns. Every animal

20:06

species we've ever studied sleeps

20:09

or engages in something remarkably like sleep.

20:12

But not all species have every

20:14

stage of sleep. According to Walker

20:17

it appears that while every species

20:19

experiences non REM sleep,

20:21

so the non dreaming stage of sleep,

20:24

only birds and mammals have full-blown

20:28

REM sleep. That's the dream sleep.

20:29

Birds and mammals appeared

20:32

later in the evolutionary timeline which

20:35

suggests that quote dream sleep

20:37

is the new kid on the evolutionary block.

20:40

Am I oversimplifying it then to see

20:42

a pattern here that sleep

20:45

per se is sorting

20:48

out the cognition

20:50

and dreams, the other aspect

20:52

of sleep, are dealing with the emotion? Is

20:54

that too much like a pattern or is

20:56

there something in it? I think there's something

20:58

in it. I suspect as with everything it's going to be

21:00

more complicated than that. But I think as a shorthand

21:02

to think about the different stages of sleep

21:04

and why we sleep on our cognitive

21:07

and our emotional behaviors. I think it's

21:09

a perfectly reasonable way of thinking about

21:11

it. Yeah. Are there people who don't

21:14

dream? I mean you meet people who report

21:17

that they don't remember having dreams or almost

21:19

never having dreams. But can we tell from brain

21:22

imaging that they really are? It's

21:24

very likely that everybody dreams. But the

21:26

reason why we tend not to remember

21:27

them is that we wake up

21:30

naturally from REM sleep. And if we wake

21:32

naturally from REM sleep, we're

21:34

much more likely to remember our dreams. So

21:36

individuals for example who are waking

21:38

up routinely, let's say they're being driven out of bed by

21:41

an alarm clock and it's never during that last

21:43

bit of sleep. It's during let's say slow wave

21:45

sleep. They'll find it much more difficult

21:48

to remember their dreams. The other

21:50

thing is that individuals who are not

21:52

getting sufficient sleep overall,

21:55

the sleep is being compressed and

21:58

often you're just not

22:00

getting the sort of, you're not waking up refreshed

22:03

and then remembering from REM sleep your

22:05

dreams. So I suspect everybody's

22:07

dreaming, but some will not be remembering

22:10

it because they're not waking up at the appropriate

22:12

phase of sleep.

22:13

["The A

22:19

It's not a very pleasant dream. I'm

22:21

stuck in the weeds outside of

22:23

an old weather-bitten house. It's

22:26

all scraped paint along the walls and

22:28

the weeds are really dark and thick. It's

22:31

also pretty late in the day.

22:33

Anyway, I can hear my friends

22:36

and more importantly, I can hear my wife, Maya, inside

22:39

the house and they're talking

22:42

and everybody's having fun and

22:44

just relating well to each other. But

22:47

I'm on the outside and the windows

22:49

are so high that I can't even see

22:52

in and I can't get in anywhere.

22:54

There's no door and they can't

22:57

hear me and I can just hear

22:59

them. And then the sun goes down

23:02

and I'm left in the dark."

23:06

There are a couple of popular ways

23:08

of thinking about the study of dreams

23:12

represented by Sigmund Freud on the one hand

23:14

and his protege Carl Jung on

23:17

the other. As I said earlier, for Freud,

23:19

dreams are the manifestations of repressed

23:22

longings. By contrast, Jung posited

23:24

that dreams serve as reflections

23:27

of our waking life and are the

23:29

body's way of processing the events of

23:31

our day-to-day lives. What both

23:33

theories have in common is the idea that

23:35

dreams do

23:36

have tangible meaning, be it

23:39

repressed longing or a kind of neuro

23:41

housekeeping. So perhaps director Mark's

23:44

dream that we just heard about could

23:46

suggest he's worried about being alone

23:48

or he's feeling isolated or that

23:51

he needs to spend more time with his wife or

23:53

perhaps his boss needs to criticise him less,

23:56

something like that. But I'm no dream

23:58

interpreter, comes to

24:00

Mark's very special kind of brainwaves.

24:03

Harvard academic and psychologist Deirdre

24:06

Barrett did a bunch of research on

24:08

dreams during COVID lockdowns in 2020.

24:11

She collected 15000 dream

24:13

accounts via a public survey and discovered

24:16

that people were having very similar vivid

24:19

anxious COVID dreams. There are

24:21

clusters of similar themes, insects

24:24

and bugs attacking the dreamer. Natural

24:27

disasters like tsunamis and hurricanes.

24:29

People

24:29

panicking because they don't have a mask

24:32

in a crowd, being locked up

24:34

in prison, dreams exaggerating

24:36

our fears of isolation and so on.

24:38

Turns out most of our collective

24:41

COVID dreams were kind of predictable.

24:44

The collective experience of dreams was particularly

24:47

important in the ancient world, which

24:49

was altogether more community

24:52

focused rather than individualistic

24:54

focused like we are today. And

24:56

while the biggest debate about dreams

24:59

today is whether dreams actually

25:01

matter in the ancient world, there

25:03

was no question. Of course they

25:06

mattered and how you interpreted your

25:08

dreams could have

25:08

a huge world changing

25:11

effect. I mean, obviously dreams

25:13

are universal, but I mean, how ubiquitous was

25:16

the taking dreams

25:18

seriously as messages

25:20

from beyond? Absolutely

25:23

ubiquitous in all religions.

25:26

It seems so not just the monotheisms,

25:29

but especially those. And it

25:31

was also a way of regulating,

25:34

you know, your expectations for your

25:36

own future. You could ask for

25:38

dreams that dealt with very mundane

25:40

matters like

25:41

who you should, well, not so mundane, who

25:43

you should marry, but also who, when

25:45

should you set off on a journey? Was today the

25:48

right day? What sort of things should

25:50

you be investing in in your business? That's

25:54

Bronwyn Neil, professor of ancient history at Macquarie

25:56

University back in my hometown of Sydney.

25:59

expert on Byzantine and

26:02

medieval Christianity. Part of her research

26:04

involved understanding the social background

26:07

of antiquity and the early Middle Ages, a

26:09

world in which dreams were taken very,

26:12

very seriously. Yeah.

26:13

So, before you go to bed, you can ask for

26:16

a particular dream. Yeah, yeah, you

26:18

could. Or ask for a message in a dream. You could.

26:20

And that practice is still alive in

26:22

some... Cool. Yeah, some religious

26:24

context. So, were dreams then

26:27

mainly private messages

26:30

or mainly community? Or are you just going to say

26:32

yes? No, I'm going to

26:34

say mainly community, where the community

26:37

started with the family. Yes. Yeah.

26:39

So, I would even go so far as to say there

26:41

was no such thing as a private dream because

26:43

there was no point

26:44

to a private dream.

26:46

They're not really seen as reflections

26:49

of your unconscious or anything until Freud.

26:52

So... I mean, that's

26:54

a massive insight into

26:56

antiquity right there, or maybe

26:58

a massive insight into the idiosyncrasy of

27:00

modernity. Oh, well, yes,

27:02

either way. I'm not sure I'd want

27:04

to go back to antiquity in this respect, actually,

27:07

because it allows anyone

27:09

to assume authority. You

27:11

know, there were some checks and balances,

27:13

but it gave everybody that wanted

27:16

to be a prophet access to their

27:18

own prophetic dreams.

27:20

What is

27:24

a dream?

27:25

Dreams carried enormous weight in the

27:27

Greco-Roman world and were often viewed

27:29

as omens or prophetic signs

27:32

of things to come. Even doctors

27:34

took them seriously. Records from ancient

27:36

Greece tell us physicians often attempted

27:38

to interpret dreams as a way of diagnosing

27:41

disease or psychological distress.

27:44

Depending on who you were, dreams could also

27:46

have very serious geopolitical

27:49

implications. Friend of the pod, Flavius

27:51

Josephus, writes in his Antiquities

27:54

of the Jews that on

27:55

Alexander the Great's conquest

27:57

of Asia in the 4th century BC. The

28:00

great Macedonian warlord spared

28:02

Jerusalem due solely to

28:04

the actions of high priest Jadis

28:07

following a prophetic dream.

28:09

Jadis

28:30

stood on him after he had offered sacrifice,

28:32

that he should take courage and adorn

28:35

the city and open the gates, that

28:37

the rest should appear in white garments,

28:40

but that he and the priests should

28:43

meet the king in the habits proper to

28:45

their order,

28:46

without the dread of any ill consequences

28:49

which the providence of God would

28:51

prevent. And when Jadis

28:53

understood that Alexander was not

28:56

far from the city, he went

28:58

out in procession, with the priests

29:00

and the multitude of the citizens. Flavius

29:04

Josephus, Antiquities of

29:06

the Jews.

29:09

Josephus goes on to write that upon

29:11

appearing at the city gates which were

29:13

open, Alexander revealed that

29:16

he had also had a dream, in which

29:18

Jadis had appeared to him and assured

29:21

him that he would find success in

29:23

his conquests. Ultimately, Alexander

29:25

left Jerusalem untouched,

29:28

a courtesy not afforded for neighbouring

29:30

cities. The story is probably

29:32

untrue, but it's a cool example

29:34

of how ancient people just assumed

29:37

that geopolitics could

29:39

be influenced by dreams. Can

29:41

you give us a sense of how dreams were

29:43

approached in the different social

29:46

strata? Wealthy versus the poor.

29:49

Sure.

29:49

So dream books were

29:52

manuals for ordinary people to interpret

29:55

their dreams, without necessarily having

29:57

recourse to a professional interpreter who

29:59

they might...

29:59

not have been able to afford. So they're

30:02

very simple dictionaries of symbols

30:04

and a meaning, like it could be as basic

30:07

as this is a good omen, this is a bad omen.

30:10

Things like, you know, seeing a frog might

30:12

be a good omen for a journey. But

30:14

the more elaborate dream interpretations

30:17

come from professional interpreters who

30:19

were attached to courts and so on, right up

30:21

to the very top of society in

30:24

imperial courts and royal

30:26

courts, they all employed professional

30:29

dream interpreters and their

30:31

dreams, of course, had a lot

30:32

of input for the safety and prosperity

30:35

of a lot of people. So they took them

30:37

equally seriously right at the top levels.

30:42

Seven years of bumper crops

30:44

are on their

30:45

way.

30:50

Years of plenty, endless

30:52

wheat and tons of hay. Your

30:56

farms will boom, there won't

30:58

be room to store the

31:00

surplus food you grow. After

31:04

that, the future doesn't look so

31:06

bright. Regent luck will

31:08

change completely overnight and famine's

31:10

hand will stock the land

31:13

with food and all time low.

31:15

Noble king, there is no

31:18

doubt what your dreams

31:20

are all about. All

31:23

these things you saw in your pajamas

31:26

are a long range forecast for

31:28

your farmers and I'm sure

31:30

it's crossed your mind. But

31:33

it is you have to find,

31:36

find a man to lead you

31:38

through the famine with a flair

31:41

for economic planning. But

31:44

who this man could be,

31:46

I just don't know.

31:59

Technicolor Dreamcoat, starring

32:02

Donny Osman as Joseph.

32:05

Whatever happened to Donny Osman? The

32:07

silly but strangely addictive musical

32:09

follows Joseph from the book of Genesis,

32:12

who finds himself in the court of an Egyptian pharaoh

32:15

who's having strange dreams that no

32:17

one can interpret. Joseph, a

32:19

gifted dream interpreter, has a go.

32:22

In the musical, the pharaoh recites his dream

32:24

in his best Elvis imitation. He

32:27

dreams of seven fat cows, seven

32:29

skinny cows, seven healthy ears of corn,

32:31

and seven dead ears of corn. It's

32:34

actually fairly close to the biblical

32:36

version of events, which you can read in Genesis

32:38

chapter 41. Except don't

32:41

imagine Elvis through the story. That

32:43

scene we just heard is Joseph interpreting

32:45

pharaoh's dream. Egypt is going to have

32:48

seven good years of harvest followed by seven

32:50

bad years. Pharaoh listens

32:52

to Joseph's interpretation, which Joseph

32:55

says has come from God. Egypt

32:57

plans well and the seven bad

32:59

years don't result in a famine. Joseph

33:02

is promoted to Pharaoh's right hand

33:04

man. It's one of several

33:07

dream interpretation stories in

33:09

the Bible. Daniel in the Old

33:11

Testament is also celebrated as a dream

33:14

interpreter. And the prophet Joel predicted,

33:16

quote, I will pour out my spirit on

33:18

all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy.

33:21

Your old men will dream dreams.

33:24

That's a passage that the apostle Peter

33:26

quotes in the New Testament are

33:28

somehow fulfilled among Christians.

33:31

But

33:32

then in the book of Jeremiah

33:34

in the Old Testament, God warns

33:37

his people about false prophets

33:39

who merely say they dream

33:41

dreams.

33:43

I have heard what the prophets say

33:45

who prophesy lies in my name.

33:48

They say I had a dream. I had

33:51

a dream. How long

33:53

will this continue in the hearts of these

33:55

lying prophets who prophesy

33:57

the delusions of their own minds?

34:00

Therefore, declares the

34:02

Lord, I am against

34:04

the prophets who steal from one another

34:07

words, supposedly from me. Yes,

34:11

declares the Lord. I am

34:13

against the prophets who wag their

34:15

own tongues and yet declare, the

34:17

Lord declares.

34:19

Indeed, I am against those

34:22

who prophesy false dreams,

34:24

declares the Lord. When

34:27

it came to dreams in the Bible, the

34:29

stakes were high. And

34:31

the early Christians took these scriptural

34:34

warnings to heart when it came to

34:36

figuring out their own dreams.

34:38

Okay, so let's focus on Christianity in

34:40

particular. Early Christianity

34:43

has values dreams as

34:46

communications from beyond. Is that right?

34:48

Yeah, that's correct. Early Christianity

34:51

was careful about dreams as they'd

34:53

learnt to be from the Judeo tradition

34:56

of especially the wisdom books.

34:59

So Solomon, Wisdom of Solomon

35:01

and some of the prophets were also

35:03

quite ambivalent about or they warned

35:06

people about accepting all dreams

35:08

as being from the divine and they had to be

35:11

discerned. The meaning of them had

35:13

to be discerned

35:13

and also the source because if God could

35:16

send you dreams, then the devil or

35:18

demons could also send you dreams. Yes,

35:21

because divination was of course outlawed in

35:23

Judaism, but dreams sort of sit

35:25

somewhere in that fuzzy space. Yeah,

35:28

so Christian dreams are really the

35:30

theory of dream interpretation comes from

35:33

Judaism, but also from ancient Greco-Roman

35:36

divination traditions and they allowed

35:39

divination. They even encouraged it. Was

35:41

there any formal difference between dreams and

35:43

say

35:43

visions or prophetic

35:47

speech? Yes, well,

35:49

one lovely saying from the Talmud

35:52

from the Babylonian Talmud is that dreams

35:54

are only one twenty fourth of prophecy. There

35:57

is very small part.

35:59

is a collection of Jewish laws,

36:02

civil, moral, ceremonial, with

36:04

parable and history thrown in. Combined,

36:07

it's about 22 volumes at

36:10

the edition I'm looking at on my bookshelf

36:12

right now. And the divination

36:14

that Bronwyn is talking about, aside from Hogwarts

36:17

school subject in Harry Potter, is

36:19

the practice of determining hidden

36:21

meanings in menial everyday

36:24

events. This often included trying

36:26

to decode the future through things

36:28

like reading the flight patterns

36:31

of birds, the casting of lots

36:33

with animal bones, reading into

36:35

star signs like horoscopes, observing

36:38

how the sacred chickens ate their food.

36:40

True story. And you guessed it,

36:43

dreams. The Bible comes down

36:45

pretty hard on divination.

36:47

There shall not be anyone among

36:50

you who practices divination or

36:52

tells fortunes or interprets

36:54

omens or a sorcerer. That's

36:56

Deuteronomy. Despite all

36:59

this, in both later Christian

37:01

Byzantine culture and Islamic

37:04

culture,

37:05

ancient pagan dream techniques were

37:07

put to monotheistic use,

37:10

resulting in whole books being

37:12

published known as dream key

37:14

manuals. There is very

37:17

small

37:17

part of prophecy. And

37:19

it appears again in the Hadith about the Quran

37:21

that dreams are a 140th part of prophecy.

37:25

So they were saying as a small part,

37:27

but as you know, prophecy had

37:29

to be interpreted. It wasn't, at

37:31

least in the New Testament, prophetic. The

37:34

prophetic gift was one that had to be

37:36

practiced

37:36

with discernment and maybe you'd

37:39

give the prophecy and somebody else would interpret

37:41

it for the community. So they

37:43

were always conscious that it was

37:45

a dangerous activity and it had to be regulated.

37:48

So did they think all dreams were spiritually

37:51

significant or just the ones that freaked

37:53

you out?

37:54

Mainly the ones

37:56

that freaked you out. So the more clear, the

37:58

more vivid that was.

37:59

more likely and also if a prophetic

38:02

messenger appeared like a saint or

38:04

in the Christian times Mary the mother

38:06

of God might appear. You know

38:09

those

38:09

saints would look, they had to have kind

38:11

of authentic appearance and

38:14

they were often white, the angels

38:16

and the saints appeared in white raiment,

38:18

they were always beautiful, they were usually

38:21

young. So they were all signs that this

38:23

was a divinely ordained

38:24

dream. But they recognised that dreams

38:26

could be natural phenomena as well produced

38:29

by too much eating, too much drinking

38:31

or the

38:32

opposite too little food or drink. So

38:35

yes you find this fine line between recognising

38:37

that eating cheese before you go to bed

38:39

might produce nightmares but on the other

38:41

hand fasting could

38:44

be a way to bring on such

38:46

dreams that did have divine

38:48

significance so prayer and fasting often

38:51

accompanied

38:51

monastic visions. But as

38:53

far as the terminology goes you don't get

38:56

a very clear cut distinction

38:58

between dreams and visions. They used almost

39:01

visions are usually prioritised

39:04

as being more likely divine and dreams

39:06

can be either.

39:07

Yeah right, interesting.

39:10

Okay so tell me how this worked. Let's just

39:12

say I'm a Christian in Constantinople

39:16

in the 500s and I

39:18

have a crazy dream,

39:20

I don't know, that I get up and kill someone or something

39:22

and then I wake up from this terrible

39:24

dream. What do I do? What would be

39:27

kind of an advised process

39:29

to get to the bottom of it? So

39:33

if you are really a believer you might

39:35

go to your priest and now is your priest to interpret

39:37

it. So priests generally

39:40

had this gig did they? It's

39:42

not really encouraged but

39:45

it seems like it happened a lot,

39:46

let's say that. So technically

39:49

priests were more and more discouraged

39:52

from doing dream divination but in

39:54

the Byzantine church if you didn't want

39:56

to just go to your own dream dictionary and

39:59

look up what does

39:59

if I killed someone, and then there might

40:02

be sub meanings like if you're poor and

40:04

you killed a rich person, it means this. And

40:06

if you're rich and you killed a poor person or

40:08

you killed a woman or you killed someone in your

40:10

family, it means that. So there

40:12

could be lots of layered strands of interpretation.

40:16

So you had to find somebody

40:18

that knew all the conditions.

40:21

So time of year might be taken into

40:23

account or what weapon

40:24

you used or yeah, particularly

40:27

who was the victim. They

40:29

all kind of contributed to.

40:31

And sometimes things that you would think would

40:33

be negative

40:35

could be interpreted very positively.

40:38

Like if you killed a prostitute, that might

40:40

be seen as you're going to enjoy

40:43

a long marriage, you know, because you

40:45

killed that part of your life, killed off that

40:47

part of your life. So you...

40:48

And I hope if you're a rich man and you dreamt

40:50

about killing a poor man, you know, the message is

40:52

you're going to hell if you don't repent. How that worked

40:55

to it?

40:55

I know. It's not that simple.

40:58

Really? It might

41:00

be taken as that means success

41:02

in business.

41:03

Yikes. Yeah. Even

41:05

amongst those Christians. I mean, there were Christian interpretations

41:08

and secular interpretations. And if you

41:10

were a Christian, you had a choice where you went to.

41:13

There isn't a whole lot of help from

41:15

the ancient church fathers on the topic

41:18

of dreams, but late second

41:20

and early third century theologian, Tertullian,

41:23

one of the brainiest converts of the period, did

41:25

have something to say about dreams in his

41:28

treatise titled On the Soul,

41:30

written in Carthage, North Africa near

41:33

the beginning of the third century.

41:35

You mentioned Tertullian. Why was he

41:37

particularly unusual? He was a standout

41:39

because he distinguished between the three

41:41

types of dream, the three

41:44

and this carried right through into

41:46

Islamic dream law, the physical

41:48

that I mentioned before, physical

41:51

causes like eating too much, drinking too much. An

41:54

imbalance in the body, getting

41:56

too hot. We might add to that. I mean,

41:58

we all know that if you get too hot in your

42:00

bed, you're going to have more likely to have

42:03

nightmares. And then the second kind

42:05

was preoccupations of the mind, things

42:07

that were on your mind from that day, like from

42:09

work or struggles in your family,

42:11

things like arguments. And then the

42:14

third

42:15

type, which he said were very rare, were

42:17

these divinely inspired visions.

42:20

He sounds very sensible. Yeah, he

42:22

was a lawyer, right?

42:25

In his treatise on the soul, Tertullian

42:27

said that the human soul never

42:30

rests, even when the body was

42:32

resting. Dreams therefore were the experience

42:35

of the soul in the spiritual realm.

42:38

He writes,

42:39

When therefore rest

42:42

accrues to human bodies, it

42:45

being their own special comfort,

42:47

the soul distaining a repose

42:50

which is not natural to it, never

42:53

rests. That is, the soul

42:55

is awake, active and

42:57

participating in the spirit world

43:00

through dreams. And

43:02

since it receives no help from the limbs

43:04

of the body, it uses its

43:07

own.

43:08

Imagine a gladiator without

43:10

his instruments or arms, and

43:12

a charioteer without his team,

43:15

but still gesticulating the entire

43:17

course and exertion of their

43:20

respective employments.

43:22

There is the fight, there is

43:24

the struggle, but the effort

43:27

is a vain one. Nevertheless,

43:30

the whole procedure seems to be

43:32

gone through. Although it evidently

43:34

has not been really affected,

43:36

there is the act,

43:38

but not the effect.

43:41

Tertullian also argues that there are

43:43

just natural dreams. They

43:46

are not messages from beyond, they are just

43:48

the emotions working themselves out in our

43:50

soul. Part of his argument is that infants

43:53

dream. Something that others disputed.

43:56

He writes, As for those persons who suppose

43:58

that infants do not dream, they are not.

43:59

dream on the grounds that all the functions

44:02

of the soul throughout life are accomplished according

44:04

to the capacity of age, they ought

44:07

to observe attentively

44:08

the tremors and nods and

44:11

bright smiles as babies sleep.

44:13

And from such facts understand

44:16

that these are the emotions of the soul

44:19

as it dreams, which so readily

44:21

escape to the surface through the delicate

44:23

tenderness of the infantine body. Do

44:26

not let it be imagined that any soul

44:29

is by its natural constitution exempt

44:32

from dreams.

44:33

Sounds reasonable to me. But

44:35

I asked Bromont to give me some examples

44:37

of wacky dreams among early

44:40

Christian leaders. Have

44:41

you got any other favorite dreams in

44:44

the literature? Yes,

44:46

I've got so many, but let me just tell

44:48

you a couple of favorites. Okay, give me a couple.

44:52

So I love all the desert literature

44:54

about monks, people that have mainly

44:57

men, sometimes women put themselves

44:59

into complete seclusion,

45:01

living by themselves in caves,

45:04

often not having very much food.

45:06

What they had was like brought to them

45:08

by disciples and they often

45:10

had dreams about sexual desire

45:14

and they'd see visions of

45:16

seductive women or beautiful

45:18

black men coming to them. And

45:20

they always interpreted these

45:22

as demons and these

45:24

dreams as temptation dreams. Freud

45:26

would have a different interpretation, of course. Yeah, indeed.

45:29

Like you could just say it was normal, right? And

45:33

part of your repression.

45:34

Yeah, indeed. Yeah. And

45:37

my favorite kind of comic dream from

45:39

Gregory the Great in the dialogues is about

45:41

a- That's Pope Gregory the Great, by

45:43

the way. Among other things, he's

45:46

known for commissioning the first large

45:48

scale evangelistic missions from

45:50

Rome, sending missionaries to the dark,

45:53

rainy, beautiful British Isles in 596

45:55

to convert the native

45:57

pagans. Check out our episode on-

45:59

on the venerable bead, a personal

46:02

favourite of mine, for more on that story.

46:04

Now, Gregory was great,

46:07

but he sometimes weirds me out. Gregory

46:09

the Great in the dialogues is about

46:11

a nun who suffers from gluttony

46:13

and she's eating too much lettuce.

46:16

She's kind of stealing salad leaves

46:18

from the garden of the monastery. She's

46:20

out there picking salad leaves outside

46:22

mealtime. Like, it doesn't sound like complete

46:25

excess, does it? And

46:27

this is a dream what Gregory himself has? Yeah,

46:30

Gregory. And what's the interpretation?

46:33

She sees a demon sitting on a lettuce leaf.

46:36

Yeah. And he says, I'm

46:38

going to own you if you eat this. And

46:42

and Gregory or the gardener comes

46:44

along,

46:44

it's not Gregory himself. The gardener comes along

46:47

and tries to shoo away the demon. The

46:49

demon says, what have I done? I was just

46:51

sitting here and she came and tried to eat me.

46:54

Oh, my goodness. So the

46:56

demon talks back in a really whiny

46:58

way. Yeah. And so what's the punchline,

47:00

though? Well, the moral is don't

47:02

eat salad outside of mealtime. Like,

47:05

any kind of food had to be

47:07

eaten in

47:08

common. So she was stealing, essentially.

47:11

I would have thought it's a lesson against lettuce,

47:14

personally. Yes, don't eat

47:16

lettuce.

47:18

Papal dreams of lettuce thieving

47:21

nuns are one thing. Some visions,

47:23

though, like the one Roman emperor

47:25

Constantine received on the evening

47:27

of October 27, 312, altered history.

47:32

According to Constantine's own account

47:35

given to the Christian historian and bishop

47:37

Eusebius shortly before the

47:39

battle to claim the western half of the Roman

47:42

empire for himself, Constantine

47:44

says that around midday, he

47:46

saw a sign of pure light

47:48

in the sky in the shape of a cross.

47:51

The cross was inscribed with the words in

47:53

Hoxigno Vinchez or in this

47:56

sign, conquer. Yes, we've got

47:58

a whole episode on this. Number 61. Constantine

48:02

went to bed later that evening, confused

48:04

and disturbed by what he'd seen, and

48:07

he was visited in a dream,

48:09

in his sleep, Eusebius reports.

48:11

The Christ of God appeared to him with the same

48:14

sign, which he had seen in the heavens,

48:17

and commanded him to make a likeness

48:19

of that sign which he had seen in the heavens,

48:21

and to use it as a safeguard in

48:24

all engagements with his enemies. And

48:26

that's what Constantine did.

48:28

Where would you place something like Constantine's vision,

48:31

or dream, because the sources are different. One

48:34

source says it's a dream, and other says it was a vision, before

48:37

the Melvian Bridge.

48:38

That's right. So this was

48:40

a really famous and impactful

48:43

vision that led to the

48:45

Christianization

48:45

of the Roman Empire, essentially.

48:48

He saw either a vision of the cross,

48:50

or in one source it says he saw the Cairo,

48:53

the first two letters of Jesus' name, and

48:55

he put them on his standards, his military

48:57

standards, and he was told

49:00

with the vision, he heard the voice of God

49:02

in this sign, conquer. So

49:05

he put the symbols on his standards,

49:07

and they went to victory, and managed

49:09

to take over the whole Roman Empire,

49:12

east and west.

49:12

And there was no priest there going, oh, that

49:14

doesn't sound like Jesus. I

49:18

don't remember Jesus saying that.

49:21

No, and the weird, you know,

49:23

you have to wonder, was it a cross, or was it

49:25

a Cairo? Or was it a

49:28

sort of weird combination

49:30

of the chi with a big row

49:33

letter

49:34

R that made it look like

49:36

a cross? Yeah, it's like too

49:38

convenient, that dream. And so it

49:40

has led to a few questions about

49:42

whether it was maybe made up by somebody,

49:45

if not Constantine, by his biographers,

49:48

who wrote The Life of Constantine that eventually

49:50

became part of the history of the whole

49:52

church. Oh, you're too skeptical,

49:54

Bronwyn, too skeptical. Yeah, I'm a cynic.

49:56

Bronwyn isn't the only expert

49:59

we've had on the show.

49:59

who's a bit cautious about Constantine's

50:02

vision and dream account. Here's

50:05

University of Nottingham's emeritus

50:07

professor of ancient history, Doug Lee,

50:09

speaking about it in episode 61,

50:12

Emperor Constantine. But

50:16

the idea of a commander using

50:19

the report of a divinely inspired

50:21

dream or vision, promising victory

50:24

to instill morale in his

50:26

troops, has a very long pedigree

50:29

in Roman history. And

50:31

I can well imagine Constantine using

50:33

something like this on the eve

50:36

of a battle in which the odds were

50:38

by no means in his favour for

50:40

pragmatic reasons.

50:42

And then when he achieved

50:44

success, it was natural for him

50:46

to think that it would be sensible

50:49

to honour

50:50

the deity in question. So

50:53

the missing piece in this is why he presented

50:56

his dream or vision as referring

50:58

to the god of the Christians. And I think

51:00

part of the answer to that is that we know

51:03

there were Christian priests in his

51:05

entourage by this time,

51:07

and we can easily imagine them encouraging

51:10

his thinking in this direction.

51:13

So I think of Constantine's

51:15

conversion in terms of his approaching

51:17

the battle with a very traditional

51:20

religious mindset,

51:21

except that the god on whom he pins

51:24

his hopes is the Christian god, his

51:27

victory then validates that trust

51:30

and he begins honouring the Christian god in various

51:32

ways.

51:37

Whatever Constantine experienced,

51:40

this changed the course of history.

51:43

Across the millennia, people have been influenced

51:45

by, and then acted upon, what

51:47

they believed were divine messages

51:50

in dreams. I'm

51:52

not a fan, but I find the whole

51:55

thing fascinating. But what

51:57

about in our modern, rational,

51:59

science,

51:59

driven world. Are there still

52:02

credible stories of people

52:04

encountering spirits or

52:07

even the Christian God through dreams?

52:10

I hesitate. But

52:13

according to an increasing number of converts

52:15

to Christianity from a particular

52:17

cultural background, the answer is

52:20

absolutely. So stick

52:23

around. I am.

52:37

In Nairobi,

52:37

Kenya, the birthplace

52:40

of my darling buff, close to two

52:42

and a half million people are living

52:44

in these informal settlements right

52:46

now. They're crammed into

52:49

three by three meter shacks

52:51

made of mud brick, a tin

52:53

roof and dirt floors. Local

52:56

water is contaminated with typhoid

52:59

and cholera and drug

53:01

use, violence and sex work are at an

53:03

all time high, especially among

53:06

youth. Anglican Aid

53:08

is helping on the ground Christian agencies

53:11

to address these issues. They're

53:13

partnering with them for their grace

53:16

abounding appeal to provide

53:18

education and vocational training to

53:21

vulnerable children and young people. And

53:23

you can help them to do this. Anglican Aid

53:26

is a charity I really

53:27

trust. Buff and I really support

53:30

them.

53:30

So head to AnglicanAid.org.au

53:35

for details on how you can make a difference.

53:38

AnglicanAid.org.au. Thanks

53:41

so

53:46

much.

53:46

Of course, when I went to Mecca, I was going

53:49

there in order to pay homage to the Kaaba

53:51

and to fulfill the requirements in Islam.

53:54

But that night I saw Jesus in a dream.

53:56

First, Jesus touched my forehead with his

53:58

finger.

53:59

After touching me, he said, you belong

54:02

to me. And then he touched me above

54:04

my heart. You have been saved. Follow

54:06

me. You belong to me, he said. So

54:09

I decided, OK, I'm not going

54:11

to finish the Hajj, the pilgrimage. Whatever

54:14

it takes, I'm going to follow that

54:16

voice.

54:19

That's a clip from the Christian broadcast

54:21

network in the US with a translator

54:24

telling the story of Ali, who

54:26

took a Muslim pilgrimage to Mecca

54:28

but had a dream about Jesus and

54:31

decided to find out more about Christianity.

54:34

He's not the only one to report

54:36

converting to Christianity after having

54:38

a dream about Jesus. A

54:41

study published in Christianity Today

54:43

magazine back in 2007 surveyed 750 Muslim converts on how

54:45

it was

54:49

that they came to call themselves Christians.

54:53

27% of respondents said that they had

54:55

divine dreams or visions just

54:57

before their conversion, with that number

55:00

climbing to 40% experiencing

55:02

spiritual dreams around the time they

55:05

converted to Christianity. Another

55:07

study by Mission Frontiers found

55:10

a quarter of Muslims surveyed

55:12

listed divine dreams, including

55:14

encounters with Jesus himself,

55:17

as a key factor in their conversion.

55:19

Muslims, in

55:21

particular Shia Muslims, do

55:24

have a strong cultural openness

55:26

to revelatory dreams with ample

55:28

precedent found in the Muslim holy book, the

55:30

Quran. Interestingly, there

55:32

are patterns that can be observed in

55:35

these dream encounters. An article

55:37

in the Gospel Coalition observed four

55:40

common factors in conversion dreams.

55:42

They were, one,

55:43

Jesus speaking scripture to them,

55:46

even scripture they'd never heard before, two,

55:49

Jesus telling people to do something,

55:51

three, a dream or vision that

55:53

led to a feeling of being clean

55:56

or at peace, and four, a

55:59

man in white.

55:59

physically appearing.

56:01

As our next guest

56:03

tells us, these dreams often

56:06

occur in places like Iran,

56:09

where becoming a Christian is incredibly

56:11

dangerous.

56:13

I was born in Iran, but when I was 18,

56:17

my uncle became a Christian. He

56:19

lives here for over 50 years. Here

56:22

means US. So something

56:24

happened to him and he believed Jesus and

56:27

he told me, and instantly I believed.

56:29

So I considered myself a Christian at

56:31

the age of 18 in Iran, which was

56:33

illegal. And then try

56:35

and get out of the country.

56:37

That's Nima Al-Azadah, president

56:39

of Revelation Ministries Incorporated, a

56:42

group dedicated to helping Farsi

56:44

speaking Christians navigate their faith.

56:47

He's not a Pentecostal

56:50

Christian. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

56:52

He's a reformed Bible guy, the

56:54

kind of Christian that usually has a healthy scepticism.

56:57

Toward the mystical. That's why

56:59

we wanted to chat to him on this show.

57:02

He has some fascinating firsthand

57:04

knowledge of a very strange thing

57:06

going on in Iran at the moment. Iranian

57:09

Christians are some of the most heavily

57:12

persecuted in the world. The

57:14

country sits at number eight on

57:17

Open Doors World Watchlist, which tracks

57:19

the most dangerous countries in the world to

57:21

be a believer. The top three, in

57:23

case you're wondering, are North Korea,

57:26

Somalia and Yemen. In

57:28

Iran, just 1.5% of people identify as

57:31

Christian. And

57:34

those who do are forced to navigate

57:36

these strict laws laid down by

57:38

the Islamic theocracy. Converting

57:41

from Islam to Christianity is

57:43

illegal and sometimes dangerous.

57:46

In February 2021, Iran amended

57:48

its criminal laws to include prison

57:51

sentences of five years for

57:53

new converts to Christianity, punishing

57:55

them for, quote, engaging in propaganda

57:58

that educates in a deep. way contrary

58:01

to the holy religion of Islam. Despite

58:04

the risks, more and more reports

58:07

have surfaced of Iranians converting

58:10

to Christianity

58:11

following dreams. What's

58:14

going on? I mean this episode

58:16

that we've invited you to take part in is

58:19

really about dreams and

58:22

I'd like you to help me think about

58:25

the significance

58:27

of dreams in this context of

58:30

Iranians

58:32

coming to believe in Christianity.

58:34

Because I'm not a big believer in dreams,

58:37

I sort of come from a little bit of a skeptical

58:41

Protestant biblical approach

58:44

as I'm I know you do too. And

58:46

yet

58:47

there is no denying that something

58:50

rather amazing is happening.

58:52

Can you give us a general sense

58:55

of what's happening and then I want to ask you some specific

58:57

questions?

58:58

Yeah I mean you're absolutely right

59:00

because I was not

59:02

really believing in dreams even before I

59:05

was a Christian because in my family

59:07

was a big thing. I mean in

59:09

the whole society in Iran it's

59:11

a big thing because when you look at Islam

59:13

also dream plays

59:16

a good role in Islamic teachings.

59:19

In Islam there are three types

59:21

of dreams. Good dreams from

59:23

Allah, bad dreams from

59:25

Satan and a third type that

59:28

comes from the mind of the dreamer. As Bronwyn

59:31

mentioned earlier it's pretty similar to to Talians

59:34

early Christian dream theory. Here's

59:36

a commonly cited Hadith which

59:39

is a statement of the Prophet Muhammad. It

59:41

reads,

59:42

the Prophet said a good

59:44

dream that comes true is from

59:47

Allah and a bad dream

59:49

is from Satan so if any

59:51

one of you sees a bad dream he

59:54

should seek refuge with Allah from Satan

59:57

and should spit on the left for

59:59

the bad dream. dream will not harm him.

1:00:02

According to Brahman Neel, if Muhammad appeared

1:00:05

in a dream to a believer, it was thought to

1:00:07

guarantee that it was a true dream,

1:00:10

since Satan was unable to disguise

1:00:12

himself as the prophet.

1:00:14

Iranians love dreams and

1:00:16

some dreams are considered spiritual

1:00:19

and prophetic. And you know, Muslims

1:00:21

believe these dreams are given

1:00:24

by God. Some believe Allah,

1:00:26

some don't believe in the God

1:00:28

of Islam, they have their own God. Still,

1:00:31

they think that higher power

1:00:34

is giving them directions and guidance

1:00:37

through these dreams. And they

1:00:39

have books coming out. I remember as a kid,

1:00:41

there were so many books for

1:00:44

dream interpretations. Like

1:00:46

if you see a snake, okay,

1:00:48

that could be a treasure somewhere.

1:00:51

If you see a tooth coming

1:00:53

out of four, someone in

1:00:56

your family will die. If you see

1:00:59

fish is money, things like that. It

1:01:01

was a whole book. So it's

1:01:04

safe to say that the Iranians really pay

1:01:06

attention to the dreams and try to interpret

1:01:08

it.

1:01:09

So then one would imagine

1:01:12

Iranians with that dream

1:01:14

culture in the background,

1:01:15

but being devoted to

1:01:18

Islam would have Islamic dreams.

1:01:21

But the reality is

1:01:23

people are having Jesus dreams. So

1:01:27

tell me about the Jesus dreams that

1:01:30

you know about and the

1:01:32

effect that it's having.

1:01:34

Ah, there are so many, so

1:01:36

many countless number of stories

1:01:39

I heard. Even in Iran, the

1:01:41

one great story was one day,

1:01:43

there was a big church in Tehran and

1:01:46

I was part of the youth group there

1:01:49

trying to do some discipleship.

1:01:52

But the big leaders, they are particularly

1:01:54

from the Muhammad's tribe.

1:01:57

They're very Muslim. They're very Muslim.

1:01:59

So, he came to church. He came

1:02:02

to church, walked in and said, where

1:02:04

is the cross? Show me the cross. And

1:02:07

they said, okay, what do you mean? What are you

1:02:09

talking about? He said, I had a dream.

1:02:12

And in my dream, Jesus showed

1:02:14

me a big cross and told

1:02:16

me, go and follow that, find

1:02:18

that and worship that. And

1:02:20

that's how he came to us. And that was

1:02:23

really crazy. And then

1:02:26

two weeks ago, one of our

1:02:28

members texted me and said

1:02:30

he had a dream. And in his dream,

1:02:33

the first dream, the

1:02:36

first kind of dreams, I would say, is a

1:02:38

good dream,

1:02:39

like this one. He texted me and

1:02:41

said, I had a dream that even now, I'm

1:02:44

hearing people coming out of Islam

1:02:46

to Christianity because of the dream

1:02:48

they see. And that's good. I

1:02:51

remember in a meeting, we were talking about

1:02:53

dreams because there is a TV

1:02:55

channel, Christian TV channel, unfortunately,

1:02:58

offering Christians

1:03:01

to come on live TV

1:03:03

and tell them about their dreams

1:03:06

and they would interpret them

1:03:08

on the spot for them.

1:03:10

And all sorts of crazy

1:03:12

messages they give people because

1:03:15

of that. But we were discussing that

1:03:17

and I said to these guys that,

1:03:20

look,

1:03:21

dreams could be meaningful

1:03:23

if they lead

1:03:25

to glorify God. If someone

1:03:27

comes to me and say, I had a dream that

1:03:29

I need to follow Jesus, he's the

1:03:31

only way to salvation,

1:03:34

I would say, definitely, this is the dream

1:03:36

you got from God. But if someone

1:03:39

comes and say, I had a dream

1:03:41

to go and beat someone, obviously,

1:03:43

I said, don't pay attention to that.

1:03:45

It happened to me, it happened to my

1:03:48

aunt, it happened to my cousin, it

1:03:51

happened to my friends, so

1:03:53

many actually. And

1:03:55

then I'm a very reformed Christian.

1:03:58

You're a Bible guy.

1:03:59

You're a good Bible God. I'm

1:04:02

trying to. And

1:04:05

so dream always was part of the Pentecostal

1:04:08

Church too. So they not

1:04:10

only dreamed to have visions, like

1:04:12

we praying, then they saw this

1:04:14

vision. So I was always against this.

1:04:17

And then we saw so many people are

1:04:19

having dreams and coming to Jesus. We

1:04:21

cannot say, no, that was not a good dream. So

1:04:25

yeah, you know what I mean. I

1:04:27

do. Can you give me any other examples

1:04:30

of anyone you know that

1:04:32

you're confident to tell us the content

1:04:35

of the dream and the effect that it had in

1:04:37

bringing them to Jesus?

1:04:39

Yes. So my father

1:04:41

had a dream. So I was praying for

1:04:43

about 16 years, about 16 years. But

1:04:48

he was rejecting it. He was a Muslim.

1:04:50

He was trying to be a devout Muslim. And

1:04:52

then he had a dream that

1:04:55

a person in a white, usually

1:04:58

is like that. It's very interesting

1:05:00

that so many people see Jesus

1:05:02

in a white dress, very peaceful,

1:05:04

very calm, approaches them, say,

1:05:06

don't be afraid, and introduce

1:05:09

himself as Jesus. And then

1:05:11

said to my father that, Nima

1:05:14

is right. So

1:05:17

I was preaching to him. I was preaching

1:05:19

to him for 16 years. Or

1:05:22

for others, Jesus would appear and say,

1:05:24

I am the life.

1:05:26

Nima has direct knowledge

1:05:28

of this stuff. And not just because

1:05:30

of his work, he himself had

1:05:32

a dream of Jesus.

1:05:35

Funny enough, I had a dream of

1:05:37

Jesus. And then I became a Christian myself.

1:05:40

Mine was not really spectacular. I

1:05:43

got a picture from one of my friends. There

1:05:45

was a baby Jesus and Mary. That

1:05:48

night, same night, I had a dream

1:05:50

about Jesus.

1:05:52

It was not like Jesus coming to me in

1:05:54

a white robe, telling

1:05:58

me to do something.

1:05:59

But I could see that Jesus

1:06:02

is in my dream, and it was very

1:06:04

strange for me. And

1:06:06

then the next thing happened.

1:06:09

When I woke up in the morning, my mom was

1:06:11

talking to my uncle, who was in

1:06:14

the US. She hung up and said,

1:06:16

you know, your uncle just revealed to me that

1:06:18

he had become a Christian. So

1:06:21

that news with my dream, for

1:06:23

the very that night,

1:06:25

it was kind of interesting for me, dreaming

1:06:28

closer to know more about Christianity.

1:06:35

It's weird, right? I

1:06:37

asked Nima to help me process it. Have

1:06:40

you got any theories as to why it's

1:06:42

happening? I

1:06:45

mean, thinking theologically, why

1:06:48

is this happening in dreams? Why

1:06:50

is God using that method? Yeah,

1:06:52

yeah. So I believe personally

1:06:54

that even back in the Old Testament,

1:06:57

dreaming and all these

1:06:59

things was not really norm. We

1:07:02

see, you know, incidents that even

1:07:05

God's enemies see dreams.

1:07:08

But even in the New Testament, we see Paul,

1:07:10

Peter, and a few others

1:07:12

see dreams. But I believe in the

1:07:14

New Testament, when the

1:07:16

word of God is written and available

1:07:18

to us, we don't need dreams. But

1:07:20

back in the Old Testament, God used

1:07:23

different means to communicate with his

1:07:25

prophets and his own people.

1:07:28

But

1:07:29

I believe stealing countries

1:07:31

like Iran, where the word of God is

1:07:34

not legally available.

1:07:37

And we can say that the famine

1:07:39

of the word is in places like Iran

1:07:41

and other places. God will use

1:07:44

anything he wishes to, you know, dreams,

1:07:47

miracles, anything. I'm

1:07:49

not a cessationist. I don't think God

1:07:52

cannot do these things. He will. But

1:07:54

I would say this is not the way

1:07:57

God communicates alone. So

1:07:59

his word.

1:07:59

primarily is what we need.

1:08:02

So if someone needs a word from God,

1:08:04

he needs to go, or she needs to go

1:08:07

and read the Bible, if she or he

1:08:09

needs to hear it loudly, she or

1:08:11

he can read it out loud, as

1:08:14

one of my teachers used to say. So

1:08:16

it's everything in it. So everything is in the Bible,

1:08:19

but we see and we cannot

1:08:21

deny it that many, many people,

1:08:24

especially from Iran, are coming to

1:08:26

faith because they had a dream about Jesus.

1:08:29

You say especially Iran, do you know

1:08:31

this to be happening

1:08:34

in other

1:08:35

Islamic countries?

1:08:37

Afghanistan, yes, Afghanistan,

1:08:40

I've heard, not, I mean,

1:08:42

yeah, that's it. But I'm sure there

1:08:45

are many people that we don't know.

1:08:48

My ministry is focused on Iranians

1:08:50

and a little bit of Afghanis. So

1:08:52

I'm sure there will be somewhere else too.

1:08:55

I want you to imagine, because there are skeptical

1:08:58

listeners, listeners who

1:09:01

aren't Christians,

1:09:02

and they're listening to this episode about dreams.

1:09:05

And they probably like the generally

1:09:08

skeptical tone that I've

1:09:11

offered through the, through the episode.

1:09:13

But they hear all this stuff that

1:09:16

you're saying about Jesus appearing in dreams.

1:09:19

And they just don't believe it. Have you got

1:09:21

a sense of what you might say to my skeptical

1:09:23

listeners about this remarkable phenomenon?

1:09:27

Yeah, because I was one of them. I was one

1:09:29

of them about Christianity itself. I

1:09:32

was playing basketball, forming

1:09:34

my own God, not caring about

1:09:36

religion at all, like Islam, Christianity,

1:09:39

and all of this, for me was the same

1:09:41

thing, one thing. And then things happen

1:09:43

to myself.

1:09:45

So first thing I would say to those people

1:09:47

that are now a spectacle is that watch

1:09:50

out, it can happen to you,

1:09:52

you know, because this is something

1:09:54

spiritual. So we believe that

1:09:57

there is a spirit of God moving.

1:09:59

moving around and it can

1:10:02

happen to you in miraculous ways. Because

1:10:04

we are body and dreams

1:10:07

are also real

1:10:08

every day, every night we see

1:10:11

so many dreams. We may forget it,

1:10:13

but we cannot not having dreams.

1:10:16

So we dream about many things.

1:10:19

According to your scientists,

1:10:21

you can read like Carl

1:10:23

Jung or Freud, they have different theories

1:10:25

on what is actually happening in the brain.

1:10:28

But I believe because brain is part

1:10:30

of our body

1:10:31

and we have unconsciousness,

1:10:34

God can use that. God can use

1:10:36

our

1:10:37

own self to

1:10:39

wake us up. And I

1:10:41

would say if people are really looking

1:10:44

for the truth

1:10:45

and willing to find out about

1:10:47

the truth, just ask. Ask

1:10:50

God, ask the higher

1:10:52

power, just show them the

1:10:54

truth. Because I asked that night,

1:10:57

God show me the truth and I had

1:10:59

that dream.

1:11:01

So God can come into your dream

1:11:03

and use that.

1:11:06

Let me say, I wasn't a fan of this

1:11:08

topic. It

1:11:14

was producer Kaylee's suggestion.

1:11:17

Or was it director Mark?

1:11:18

It was Mark, it was Mark. It

1:11:20

was Mark, of course it was.

1:11:23

Good suggestion. This is the sort of stuff I dream

1:11:25

up.

1:11:26

Oh, that makes sense now.

1:11:29

I just remember needing a whole

1:11:31

lot of persuasion. I'm not

1:11:34

exactly a cessationist.

1:11:36

That's someone who thinks the miraculous spooky

1:11:38

stuff in the Bible has ceased. But

1:11:41

I'm pretty close to that view in

1:11:43

practice. The history

1:11:45

of this stuff, I love. The

1:11:47

modern application, I'm not so

1:11:50

sure. And I would hate it, dear

1:11:52

listener, if you, after this episode,

1:11:54

started to interrogate your dreams and

1:11:57

tried to work out what God is

1:11:59

saying

1:11:59

to you.

1:11:59

That's not the point of this

1:12:02

episode. As far as I'm concerned, dreams

1:12:04

are mostly accounted for by the stuff that

1:12:06

Professor Foster told us at the top

1:12:08

of the show. Sleep per se helps

1:12:11

to sort out memory and cognition,

1:12:14

and dreams in particular process our

1:12:16

emotional life. But

1:12:19

I've watched for years this

1:12:21

phenomenon going on in Iran

1:12:24

and elsewhere among Muslims,

1:12:27

and I'm willing to admit,

1:12:30

I think the real Jesus is

1:12:33

appearing to people in their dreams.

1:12:36

I can't believe I said that

1:12:38

out loud.

1:13:06

Well, that's a wrap for Season 9

1:13:08

of Underceptions. We hope you've enjoyed

1:13:11

the episodes. Let us know by sending us

1:13:13

an audio message at Underceptions.com.

1:13:16

We love hearing your voice. And

1:13:18

give us a rating and review over at Apple

1:13:21

Podcasts if you want to see us keep rising

1:13:23

in the charts. We're going to be back in

1:13:25

September for Season 10,

1:13:28

which we're already working on. We'll

1:13:30

be talking Lord of the Rings, memory

1:13:33

and aging, deconstructing and reconstructing

1:13:36

faith, violence in the Old Testament,

1:13:38

and maybe, just maybe, if

1:13:40

Director Mark gets his way, angels.

1:13:44

And keep an ear out for some sneaky singles

1:13:46

we're going to put in your podcast feeds over

1:13:48

the next few weeks in the off-season.

1:13:51

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Thanks so much. See ya.

1:15:01

Undeceptions is hosted by

1:15:03

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