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piece of mine when it comes to

0:28

their vet care. Something

0:32

unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott

0:34

confessed to killing Michelle Schofield

0:36

in Bone Valley Season 1.

0:38

Every time I hear about my dad is,

0:41

oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil. I

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was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott

0:46

and the son he'd never known. At

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the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer. Listen

0:51

to new episodes of Bone Valley Season

0:53

2 on the I Heart Radio app,

0:55

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

0:57

podcasts. I'm

1:01

Soledad O 'Brien, and on my

1:03

new True Crime podcast, Murder on

1:05

the Towpath, I'm taking you back

1:07

to 1964 to the cold case

1:10

of artist Mary Pinchow -Meyer. She

1:12

had been shot twice in the head and

1:14

in the back. It turns out

1:16

Mary was connected to a

1:18

very powerful man. I

1:20

pledge you that we shall neither

1:23

commit nor promote aggression. John

1:25

F. Kennedy. Listen to Murder on

1:27

the Toe Path with Soledad O

1:30

'Brien on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

1:32

Podcast, or wherever you get your

1:34

podcast. Explore

1:40

the winding halls of historical true

1:42

crime with Holly Fry and Maria

1:44

Tramarki, hosts of Criminalia, as they

1:46

uncover curious cases from the past.

1:48

The legend of the Highwayman suggests

1:50

men dominated the field, but tell

1:52

that to Lady Catherine Ferrars, known

1:55

as the Wicked Lady, who terrorized

1:57

England in the mid -1600s. Her

1:59

legend persists nearly 400 years after

2:01

her death. Highwaymen are in the

2:03

hot seat this season. Find more

2:05

crime and cocktails on Criminalia. Listen

2:08

to Criminalia on the iHeartRadio app,

2:10

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

2:12

your podcasts. It's

2:21

morning in late April.

2:25

My producer Rebecca and I are in

2:27

an old cemetery in downtown Jackson, Mississippi

2:29

with Wayne Lee. Wayne's

2:31

grandfather was one of the 7

2:33

,000 former patients buried on the

2:35

grounds of the Mississippi State Asylum.

2:38

But his grandfather's not buried

2:40

here. We're in this

2:42

particular cemetery for something else.

2:46

Wayne's a taller guy, early 70s.

2:48

His full head of snow white

2:50

hair is a bit windswept as

2:52

he heads towards us. Each

2:54

time we meet him, he has on some

2:56

variation of hiking pants cinched up around a

2:58

plaid short sleeve shirt. And

3:01

there's one other thing we haven't

3:03

told you about Wayne. If

3:06

you, like me, grew

3:08

up on reruns of

3:10

Gilligan's Island, then you

3:12

might have a vague

3:14

idea of what dowsing

3:17

is. It's an

3:19

ancient tradition where practitioners use

3:21

a forked branch or metal

3:23

rods to find things hidden

3:25

underground. Most commonly water, underground

3:27

wells, but people dowse for

3:30

all sorts of things. Minerals,

3:32

oil, gemstones, and

3:35

graves. Which

3:37

is where Wayne comes in. Wayne

3:40

is a grave dowser. This

3:43

means he believes he's able to

3:45

find and identify unmarked graves. He

3:48

takes his direction from two long,

3:50

thin pieces of metal called Divining

3:52

rods. We'll come back to those

3:54

later. See

3:57

the Asylum Cemetery and its

3:59

thousands of unmarked graves was

4:01

a big story. But

4:04

the issue of unmarked graves and forgotten

4:06

cemeteries isn't a new one in the

4:08

South. The landscape is peppered

4:10

with the graves of soldiers from both sides

4:12

of the Civil War hastily buried at the

4:15

sites of major battles. And

4:17

of course, there were millions of

4:19

people in slavery on plantations. Buried

4:22

by enslavers who weren't eager to

4:24

spend money on something as permanent

4:26

or respectful as a granite headstone.

4:30

But time is the biggest enemy

4:32

of all gravesites, even the marked

4:34

ones. People

4:37

move away. Rain,

4:40

humidity, and sun wipe out

4:43

the landscape's memory. Kudzu

4:46

and blackberry vines topple and bury

4:48

any markers that are left. Well,

4:53

I don't want to say anyone disrespected.

4:56

I work in a lot of

4:58

cemeteries, cleaning up cemeteries. They're

5:00

not my relatives. They're just people that have been

5:02

forgotten. And

5:04

by using the dividing rods,

5:06

I can help find people.

5:10

Sometimes their hit stones are just

5:12

under the surface. And I

5:14

can find them and upright them to show

5:16

respect to those people. These are

5:18

just forgotten souls. And we'll do

5:20

everything I can to try to write

5:22

that. It's like

5:24

Dr. Didlake said in our first episode.

5:27

Honoring the dead is baked into the

5:30

southern ethos. So

5:32

Wayne, he keeps busy. And

5:34

he doesn't discriminate. He answers

5:36

the call of civil war buffs. That

5:39

day, I think 11 soldiers and they

5:42

were in a... line just like a

5:44

trench. He works with the

5:46

descendants of people enslaved by plantation owners

5:48

in the Confederacy. Maybe

5:51

it's because my ancestors

5:53

had slaves. I

5:55

almost feel like they're reaching out to me,

5:57

hey, you know, help us out. That

6:00

may cost us for every person that

6:02

I found in that cemetery and marked

6:04

it and had the names inscribed and

6:07

the dates that were born and died.

6:09

And my hope is that

6:11

someday when somebody's trying to find

6:13

their ancestors that was a slave

6:15

might run across that. That's my

6:18

hope. I'm just showing respect. Respect.

6:22

Wayne's own grandfather was a patient

6:24

at the state asylum, which means

6:26

that his body lies right now

6:28

in an unmarked grave. His

6:31

burial nearly a hundred years ago might

6:33

sound like distant past, but for Wayne,

6:36

that lack of resolution in his grandfather's

6:39

story remains an open wound. And

6:41

he's looking for a sense of closure. I

6:45

can walk around the room

6:47

and say, Father,

6:50

can you direct me

6:52

to Larison? Father,

6:55

please direct me to Larison.

6:58

Father, please direct me to Larison. I'm

7:01

Larison Campbell, and

7:03

this is Under Yazoo Clay.

7:07

The site of the Old

7:10

Asylum, the site that's now

7:12

the medical center for the

7:15

University of Mississippi, holds 7

7:17

,000 unmarked graves. That's 7

7:20

,000 lives lived and tens

7:22

of thousands more lives connected

7:24

to those. How

7:28

did this cemetery get forgotten? The

7:31

first bodies were buried at that site in

7:34

the middle of the 1800s. And for the

7:36

next half century plus, the story of this

7:38

graveyard proceeded in a straight line. Patients

7:40

were interred, markers were laid,

7:43

some stone, mostly wood. And

7:45

the cemetery grew, often tended to

7:47

and maintained by people in the

7:49

asylum. So when

7:52

the asylum closed in 1935 and

7:54

the state transferred those patients to

7:56

the new hospital outside of Jackson,

7:59

the trajectory shifted. Now,

8:02

the cemetery didn't belong to the hospital.

8:05

There was no hospital there. It

8:08

became part of the fabric of Jackson. The

8:11

best glimpse I've gotten of the asylum

8:13

in those years was from the writer

8:15

Eudora Welty, who was also a great

8:18

photographer. And the

8:20

foreground of her photo is waste high

8:22

grass. Behind that, a

8:24

thick jumble of tall trees. And

8:27

right in the center, peeking through a gap

8:29

in the branches looms the decaying turret of

8:31

the old asylum. Isolated,

8:34

haunting, beautiful. The

8:39

state tore down what remained of the

8:41

building in the 1950s. By then, the

8:43

cemetery had been swallowed by the woods

8:45

from Welty's photograph. and

8:48

Jackson residents began to find other

8:50

uses for it. And, you

8:52

know, for a long time, people in the

8:54

community knew that there was a cemetery there.

8:56

You know, it comes up again and again

8:58

when I talked to people who live in

9:00

this area. They're like, oh, yeah,

9:03

when I was a teenager, I rode

9:05

horses there. Or it apparently used to

9:07

be the place where people would go

9:09

parking. For those

9:11

of you who've never been to a sock hop,

9:14

That's 60 speak for a make out session

9:16

in a car. And

9:21

that wasn't the only thing people got up

9:23

to in the woods. I know that there

9:25

was a moonshine operation that got busted back

9:27

in there at one point. There were reports

9:29

of a lot of vandalism, you

9:31

know, just people hanging out doing

9:33

stuff they shouldn't do. The

9:36

woods were home to plenty of g -rated activities

9:38

too. Kids would explore, adults

9:41

would take long walks under the trees.

9:44

One of those is Bill Lee. He's

9:47

a cousin of Wayne's, the descendant

9:49

and Gravedelzer. Bill's lived

9:51

in the Jackson area for over 60

9:53

years, and he's a history buff the

9:55

way that a lot of older Southern

9:58

men are. Well, I lead tours in

10:00

Normandy. Oh, really? Yeah, I got a

10:02

touring company. I am pleased that your

10:05

children are interested in World War II.

10:07

They are very interested in World War

10:09

II. Well, that's fantastic. Bill

10:12

lives in a lakeside condo outside of

10:14

Jackson. We'd gone to his place

10:16

to meet up with Wayne, who'd driven down from

10:18

North Carolina. But it turned out

10:20

that Bill also had something relevant to

10:22

this story. It sits by

10:24

his front steps, right where other condo owners

10:26

would place a stone pelican or hang an

10:29

anchor. A

10:31

headstone. White marble, maybe

10:34

18 inches high, a foot or so

10:36

across, an inch thick, propped

10:38

up right by the front door. The

10:41

story for how he got it starts

10:43

more than half a century ago on

10:46

a walk through those woods with his

10:48

young son. We just go walking in

10:50

the woods and we parked somewhere around

10:52

there. And I thought it was just

10:54

a forest, just a wooded area over

10:57

there. He was so small and he

10:59

couldn't walk. I had to put him

11:01

up on the neck. We just started

11:03

walking. And all

11:05

a sudden I looked down and there was

11:08

a headstone. I

11:10

said, wait a minute, what

11:12

is this? And all of

11:15

a sudden I walked a

11:17

little bit further and I

11:19

started looking all around and

11:21

there were scores of headstones

11:24

over a sprawling area. I

11:26

said, this is a big

11:28

cemetery. Now these

11:31

stone markers weren't on every grave. Most

11:33

patients were buried with painted wooden

11:35

markers. Families with means could pay

11:37

extra for stone. It was like

11:39

a forest, and there

11:42

was not a lot of

11:44

underbrush because those tree canopies

11:46

kept that sunlight from the

11:48

ground. I could see the

11:51

whole cemetery, see

11:53

all those markers up there, scores

11:55

of them. Well, what do

11:57

they say? Seven thousand

12:00

bodies out there?

12:02

Or more. Being

12:08

a history buff, the image

12:10

of the cemetery stayed with Bill. It

12:13

felt wrong that in the space of just over

12:16

30 years, all these graves

12:18

in the center of his city

12:20

could just be forgotten, especially after

12:22

he heard that the state had

12:24

plans to remove the remaining stone

12:26

markers. By the

12:28

way, I haven't been able to find any

12:30

record of this plan in the state archives

12:32

or newspapers, but other people

12:34

have told me they heard about it too. And

12:37

the headstones have been gone for decades.

12:40

So Bill and a friend staged a rescue. I

12:43

said, I want to be able to

12:45

tell people, yes, that's a cemetery out

12:48

there. And yes, there were markers. And

12:50

here's the evidence of it right here.

12:52

Because I knew that, first of all,

12:54

I said, I can't take them all.

12:57

If I could, I would have

12:59

taken them all, OK? But

13:02

I said, I can take one. I

13:04

can do that. So this

13:06

is the one I'm going to take

13:08

right here. And I

13:10

just wanted to save it for posterity. To

13:12

say, yeah, hey, you say there's no cemetery,

13:14

there were no markers. Well, here's one right

13:16

here. I got evidence of it for goodness

13:19

sake. That evidence has followed

13:21

Bill to every house he's lived in

13:23

since. When we paid Bill a

13:25

visit at his condo, it was the first thing

13:27

Wayne pointed out. This is

13:29

the first evidence I was telling him about.

13:31

Oh my gosh. Can

13:34

you imagine the first time I met Billy and I

13:36

come to his house and I said, what are you

13:38

doing with the headstone? Will you read the headstone to

13:40

me? This is Timothy

13:43

O 'Reardon, died May

13:45

the 30th, 1893, aged

13:48

63 years. And

13:50

Lyda, she checked it out and

13:52

he was a patient there and

13:54

he was buried in the cemetery.

13:56

I mean, it's in fairly good

13:58

shape. It is. It's sitting there

14:00

since in the 70s. I

14:02

mean, that's been out since 1893,

14:04

right? Yeah. 130

14:06

years old. To

14:09

Bill, this was a rescue mission to protect

14:11

his state's history, even if

14:13

the state itself might not see it

14:15

that way. It's

14:17

unclear why the headstones would be moved.

14:20

Institutional memory on this is surprisingly

14:23

short in a state that still

14:25

celebrates Confederate History Month. I

14:28

did hear some markers had been broken

14:30

and there were concerns about vandalism. Regardless

14:33

of the reason, the

14:36

results the same. The headstones

14:38

are gone. The wooden

14:40

markers went the way of the azu clay. And

14:43

the memories were buried with them.

14:51

The morning after we saw the headstone

14:53

at Billy's condo, We headed over to

14:56

Greenwood Cemetery to meet up with Wayne

14:58

for a dowsing demonstration. The

15:00

cemetery sits in the middle of downtown Jackson,

15:03

a small sea of tall, waving grass

15:05

and old shade trees and view of

15:08

the state capitol. We waited

15:10

for Wayne under a live oak. The

15:12

sun was dappled, the birds were loud,

15:14

the mowers were in full swing. So

15:17

you may hear one or two of those. Once

15:19

Wayne pulled up and his bright blue Prius,

15:22

it was down to business. Who's

15:24

out? Do you have a way

15:27

you like to get started or?

15:30

Yeah. And I'm going

15:33

to do a little demonstration of

15:35

with the divining rods. Wayne's

15:39

dowsing materials consist of two

15:41

thin steel rods bent into

15:43

an L shape. The

15:45

short ends got a piece of PVC

15:47

pipe around it. That's the part he's

15:50

holding. The PVC means he's not touching

15:52

the metal, that it can move, free

15:54

and clear. And I like this to

15:56

be able to move freely that way.

15:58

You know, if he's been all the

16:00

way around, I'm not touching the metal

16:02

at all. And so I don't want

16:04

anybody thinking, yeah, he's making that turn,

16:07

and I can't make it turn. When he

16:09

locates a grave, the two rods

16:11

swing toward his chest and cross

16:13

over each other. When he steps

16:15

off the grave, the rods

16:17

swing back out. It's a

16:19

dynamic, X marks the spot kind

16:21

of operation. If you're wondering

16:24

just what the hell kind of metal can

16:26

do this, the answer is any.

16:28

You could take a coat hanger. You can

16:30

be done with a loom. It can be

16:32

done with copper. This

16:34

is just metal that came

16:36

from like Home Depot or

16:38

blows. The rods may not

16:40

need to be endowed with specific qualities, but

16:43

the dowser does. Wayne

16:46

calls this a gift granted by his

16:48

creator. It's one he

16:50

said became apparent the first time he

16:52

picked up divining rods, which surprised even

16:54

him. Real dowsers,

16:56

he explains, are

16:58

rare. It was

17:01

very scary for me. I

17:03

stopped. I looked around. I'm like,

17:06

am I going nuts? Nobody

17:08

wants to think about that. But

17:11

the thing that has happened for

17:13

me by using the divining rods,

17:16

it has strengthened my faith. It

17:19

has told me that

17:21

just because you don't

17:23

understand something doesn't mean

17:25

it's not real. And

17:28

there's so much in this world,

17:30

I think, that we don't

17:32

know and we don't know about. It's

17:35

told me that we all have

17:37

a Creator. No matter

17:39

what you want to call your Creator

17:41

or you want to call it God

17:44

or Buddha or whatever, we have a

17:46

Creator that's in charge. And

17:48

are miracles that happen every day, just

17:51

because we don't always know it. I've

17:53

had several miracles happen in my life. This

17:56

being one of them, that I've gained

17:58

this ability to do this. When

18:02

Wayne tells us that he's one of the

18:04

few who can do this, I'm a little

18:06

skeptical. But Wayne is

18:08

so sweet and earnest that it doesn't

18:10

feel like he's trying to pull one

18:12

over on us. I mean,

18:15

he offered to demonstrate. So we're

18:17

going to walk over to this

18:19

first series of graves here. He

18:22

traipsed through the overgrown grass to a

18:24

line of headstones, then holding a bent

18:26

metal rod in each hand. He

18:29

bowed his head. First of

18:31

all, I'm just going to ask God to

18:33

help me use these divining rods today. Please

18:35

let your Holy Spirit work through me and

18:38

let me do a good job with this

18:40

today. When

18:43

I step over a grave, the

18:46

rods will cross over. When I step off,

18:49

the rods will open up. Oh.

18:55

He steps over the graves and the

18:57

rods make an X. But it's not

18:59

just the locations of graves. I

19:01

was told by a douser a

19:04

few years ago when I first

19:06

started dousing that he could determine

19:08

the depth that the person was

19:10

buried. I've never dug anyone

19:12

up, so I don't know that to be a

19:14

fact. So first I'm going

19:17

to walk to the grave. Cross

19:19

is over. I'll wait for it to reopen. When

19:27

they cross over again, it's

19:30

how deep the person is. So the

19:32

distance from here to there, which is

19:34

probably around six feet. They can point

19:36

to the head of the body. Father,

19:38

can you direct me to the head

19:40

of this person? Father, can you direct

19:42

me to the feet of this person?

19:45

They can deduce gender. I'll place one

19:47

rod over her. If it's a woman,

19:49

the rod will turn toward her feet.

19:51

If it's a man, the rod will

19:53

turn toward the head. And in one

19:55

of the more awe -inspiring feats, they

19:58

can even lead Wayne to a specific

20:00

person. Let's ask for Mary

20:02

Louise. Father,

20:04

I'm looking for Mary Louise.

20:06

Can you help me find

20:08

Mary Louise? And

20:11

it's not gonna cross over again

20:13

until I get to Mary Louise.

20:15

Mary Louise. But

20:18

I have the confidence and

20:20

God has revealed to me

20:22

that I can find people

20:24

only to know who they

20:26

are. Skepticism

20:29

aside, it's easy to see how

20:31

the ability to not just locate

20:34

but identify graves could be useful,

20:36

especially when you have something like

20:38

a state -owned site with 7

20:41

,000 unmarked graves. In

20:43

fact, Wayne Hasdowls did the Asylum

20:45

Cemetery, and he believes he's located

20:47

his own grandfather's grave. When

20:50

I found my grandfather there at

20:52

the cemetery and they hadn't started

20:54

zooming bodies yet, that

20:57

was... of some closure for

20:59

me. It's like, maybe

21:01

you forgot about him, and maybe you didn't

21:03

put up a marker that's still there, but

21:06

I'm going to put up a marker. As

21:09

I said, the science here is iffy

21:11

at best, and that's at

21:14

odds with the very science

21:16

-based identification approach of Asylum

21:18

Hill and the University Medical

21:20

Center. which is

21:22

probably why when the medical center found

21:24

out that we and Wayne and a

21:26

bunch of audio equipment were heading out

21:29

to the asylum cemetery to record Wayne

21:31

dousing for his grandfather's grave, they

21:33

politely but firmly told us to

21:36

leave. Are you trying to take

21:38

pictures or something? No, no, no,

21:40

no, no. We wanted to show

21:42

us where he believes his grandfather's

21:44

grave is. Oh,

21:47

well... Which

21:55

is how we all wound up at the

21:58

very marked graves of Greenwood Cemetery. But

22:00

there is an upside to dowsing at a cemetery

22:02

where graves are marked. There

22:04

might be confirmation bias, but

22:07

it's easy to see if it's working. So

22:09

I asked if I could give it a

22:11

shot. Does this work for everybody? Can anybody

22:13

do this? I've shown

22:15

several people. Some people can do

22:17

it, some people can do it a little bit,

22:20

some people can't do it at all. May

22:22

I try? Sure. Actually, it turned out

22:24

I was one of the people in

22:26

that latter category. That's

22:29

after the break. Time

22:36

is precious and so are our pets.

22:38

So time with our pets is extra

22:40

precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch

22:43

provides 24-7 access to licensed vets with

22:45

unlimited virtual visits and follow-ups for up

22:47

to five pets. You can message a

22:49

vet at any time and schedule a

22:52

video visit the same day. Our vets

22:54

can even prescribe medication for many ailments

22:56

and shipping is always free. With Dutch

22:58

you'll get more time with your pets

23:00

and year-round piece of mind when it

23:02

comes to their vet care. Something

23:06

unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed

23:09

to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone

23:11

Valley, Season 1. I just knew

23:13

him as a kid. Long, silent

23:15

voices from his past came forward.

23:18

And he was just staring at

23:20

me. And they had secrets of

23:22

their own to share. Gilbert

23:25

came. I'm the

23:28

son of Jeremy Winscott.

23:31

I was no longer just telling the story.

23:34

I was part of it. Every time I

23:36

hear about my dad is, oh, he's a

23:38

killer. He's just straight evil. I was becoming

23:40

the bridge between a killer and the son

23:42

he'd never known. If the cops and everything

23:44

would have done their job properly, my dad

23:46

would have been in jail. I would have

23:48

never existed. I never expected

23:50

to find myself in this place. Now,

23:53

I need to tell you how I got

23:56

here. At the end of the day, I'm literally a

23:58

son of a killer. Bone Valley,

24:00

season two, Jeremy.

24:03

Jeremy, I want to tell you something. Listen

24:06

to new episodes of Bone Valley Season

24:08

2 on the iHeart Radio app, Apple

24:10

Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

24:13

And to hear the entire new

24:15

season, add free with exclusive content,

24:18

subscribe to Lava for Good Plus

24:20

on Apple Podcasts. I'm Soledad O

24:22

'Brien, and on my podcast, Murder

24:24

on the Toe Path, I'm taking

24:27

you back to the 1960s. Mary

24:29

Pinchomeyer was a painter who lived

24:31

in Georgetown in Washington, D .C.

24:33

Every day, she took a daily

24:36

walk along a towpath near the

24:38

ENO canal. So when

24:40

she was killed in a wealthy

24:42

neighborhood... She had been shot twice

24:44

in the head and in the

24:46

back behind the heart. The police

24:49

arrived in a heartbeat. Within

24:51

40 minutes, a man named Raymond

24:53

Crump Jr. was arrested. He

24:55

was found nearby, soaking wet,

24:57

and he was black. Only

25:00

one woman dared defend him.

25:02

Civil rights lawyer, W. Roundtree.

25:05

Join me as we unravel this

25:08

story with a crazy twist, because

25:10

what most people didn't know

25:12

is that Mary was connected

25:14

to a very powerful man.

25:16

I pledge you that we

25:18

shall neither commit nor provoke

25:20

aggression. John F. Kennedy.

25:24

Listen to Murder on the Topat

25:26

with Soledad O 'Brien on the

25:28

iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever

25:30

you get your podcasts. Explore

25:37

the winding halls of historical true

25:39

crime with Holly Fry and Maria

25:41

Tramurky, hosts of Criminalia, as they

25:43

uncover curious cases from the past.

25:46

The legend of the highwayman suggests

25:48

men dominated the field, but tell

25:50

that to Lady Catherine Ferrars, known

25:52

as the Wicked Lady, who terrorized

25:55

England in the mid -1600s. Her

25:57

legend persists nearly 400 years after

25:59

her death. Hear the

26:01

story of the gentleman robber, the

26:03

romantic darling of the ladies, and

26:06

a tale about a wager over a sack of

26:08

potatoes, but you'll have to tune in to learn

26:10

who won that one. Some

26:12

highwaymen were well -mannered or faked

26:14

it. People were concerned about the

26:16

romanticism of robbers, but most were

26:18

just thugs. Highwaymen are

26:21

in the hot seat this season. Call

26:23

them robbers or bandits. Some are legendary

26:25

figures. Listen to stories about

26:27

historical crimes on Criminalia now, plus

26:29

the cocktails and mocktails inspired by

26:32

each. Listen to Criminalia on the

26:34

iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

26:36

you get your podcasts. The

26:52

rods barely moved. Maybe

26:54

this just meant I hadn't mastered the wrist

26:57

tilt. I tried adjusting my hands.

27:10

I tried again.

27:19

The rods moved

27:21

slightly toward each

27:23

other. Maybe

27:31

that was something or

27:33

maybe it was just

27:36

that they were sitting

27:38

inside hollow PVC tubes.

27:42

Alas, no dice. If

27:44

this was some sort of gimmick that Wayne

27:47

was pulling off, it was an

27:49

impressive one. Rebecca the producer

27:51

seemed to share my doubt, which

27:53

may be why I handed her the rods

27:55

next. Oh,

28:16

alright. I told you I was alive. So

28:20

that's my asking a question? You

28:22

can't ask who the person's head is.

28:25

But like I said, I pray and

28:27

I ask God to help me do

28:29

this. Yes,

28:35

we're the head of

28:37

Mary, Louise. Inexplicably,

28:46

the rods swung closed, then

28:48

open, then around

28:50

to point the way to Mary

28:53

Louise McGeehee. Wow.

28:57

I think you might be a natural.

29:00

You got it. You're

29:05

the first person that I know of that has done

29:07

this well. No, you're

29:09

like a natural. Audio as a

29:12

medium. has its limitations, so

29:14

I'm just going to describe Rebecca's face

29:16

at this moment. Her eyes

29:18

are wide, she's blushing a little

29:20

like someone who's been caught. Her

29:24

expression is a mixture of

29:26

awe and surprise and bewilderment

29:28

with just a touch of

29:31

horror. To

29:34

be honest, neither of us knows

29:36

what to make of Gravedalzing. Is

29:38

it a warping of energies, a

29:41

communing with something beyond ourselves? Is

29:44

it the power of the subconscious, or

29:46

maybe a well -timed fluke? I

29:49

can't say. But I'm not sure

29:51

it matters. Because whether or not

29:53

this is real, I

29:55

do believe that there's something

29:58

mystical about cemeteries. Energy

30:00

changes places. And

30:03

is there... type of land

30:05

that has seen more emotion

30:07

over the years than a

30:09

cemetery. For

30:11

Wayne, all this is driven by

30:13

faith. It's not an

30:15

exact science and some people will

30:18

say, you know, it's not

30:20

real or you're making it happen. I'm

30:23

not, but I can foul it up,

30:25

you know. It's

30:27

real and it works, but

30:29

I can foul it up. I don't

30:31

do it for money, I just do it to help

30:34

people. I'm doing it to try to show some respect

30:36

for those people that buried out there. Not just my

30:38

grandfather, but for everyone that's buried out there. All

30:41

this premised on the absolute belief

30:43

that his God won't lead him

30:45

astray. That the rods point

30:48

and cross. True. It's

30:50

like another realm out there. This

30:53

is just temporary. Because

30:55

I know when this voice told

30:57

me do this, do that, you know,

30:59

it's real. Would

31:02

anybody want to believe it or not? There's

31:05

something about a physical site, a

31:07

place, where you can imagine

31:09

your loved one is present. But

31:12

finding this place wasn't the end of Wayne's

31:14

search. That brings

31:16

us back to Cousin Bill's

31:19

condo. the same one where

31:21

we saw that headstone. Well,

31:23

listen, welcome to my little

31:26

adobe. Thank you. This is

31:28

wonderful. Thanks so much for

31:30

hosting. We sat on two

31:33

overstuffed plaid chairs in Bill's

31:35

living room, looking out over

31:37

a marina full of pontoon

31:40

boats. Wayne so

31:42

believes in everything that he's doing,

31:44

not just his dowsing, but understanding

31:46

his grandfather's story. And he

31:48

wanted to get it right for us. He

31:51

laid out a whole spread of

31:53

newspaper clippings, photos, and articles on

31:55

Bill's white tile counter. Most

31:58

of them in sheet protectors. Perched

32:00

on a bar stool, he bounced his

32:02

knee as he talked. The only thing

32:04

I knew was our granddaddy was put

32:06

in a mental institution and that they

32:08

said he was crazy. I

32:11

didn't have all the diagnosis and

32:13

all that. I didn't

32:15

know him, but then you wonder, you

32:17

know, was there a problem? I feel

32:20

like even though the hospital did all

32:22

they could to help take care of

32:24

him, I feel like they did. They

32:28

should have kept better records. It

32:30

shouldn't be that years go by and people

32:33

say, well, we didn't even know they were

32:35

there. We just built over them. It's not

32:37

important. They're dead. It

32:40

didn't matter. We started out talking

32:42

about Wayne's grandfather. The

32:44

little Wayne had been told about him. The

32:47

family's narrative had always been somewhat

32:49

simple. Wayne's grandfather

32:51

wasn't crazy, he was starving.

32:55

To the modern year, maybe that sounds like

32:57

denial. But a century ago

32:59

in rural Mississippi, it

33:01

was real. Historically,

33:05

there were lots of reasons

33:07

people were called insane. And

33:10

the causes of what we consider mental

33:12

illness weren't all the same as they

33:14

are now. One of

33:16

the biggest drivers of patients to

33:18

the state hospital wasn't even what

33:20

we'd now consider mental illness. It

33:24

was malnutrition. Well,

33:26

since he died in 32, and I wasn't

33:28

born until 52, I didn't know

33:30

a lot about him. I hadn't met

33:32

him. All that I knew was

33:34

that, you know, what our mother had told us.

33:37

When she was 18,

33:39

they were very poor

33:41

sharecroppers in Mississippi. There

33:44

were five children. They didn't have

33:46

any food to eat, and he

33:48

basically gave them his food. He

33:51

got really sick. He got

33:53

very delusional. He had

33:55

swords on his hands and feet, and

33:58

they didn't know what was wrong

34:00

with him. They were supportive. They didn't

34:03

have a car. They couldn't take him to a hospital. And

34:06

so the story that we

34:08

were told was that a

34:11

neighbor contacted the sheriff. and

34:14

said, you need to take this man to the hospital. Said

34:17

he's delusional. He's very paranoid. He

34:19

thinks someone's coming to get him.

34:22

So the sheriff came. Then

34:25

my mother was the oldest. She was 18.

34:28

She signed the paperwork for the

34:30

sheriff to take him to the

34:32

mental hospital. According to

34:35

my mom, they didn't know he was going to a

34:37

mental hospital. She thought they were just taking

34:39

him to a hospital. The

34:42

story that we always heard was

34:45

They didn't find out until like

34:47

six months later that he had

34:49

died affected her a lot And

34:51

it also caused some risks in

34:54

the family from what I understand

34:56

because She supposedly signed the paperwork

34:58

for the sheriff to take her

35:00

father The youngest child was 10

35:03

And my mom always said that

35:05

you know some of the younger

35:07

ones held it against her that

35:10

she'd send her father off and he'd come

35:12

back. And

35:15

that was it. The end

35:17

of his grandfather's life stayed shrouded in

35:19

mystery. But in the

35:22

1970s, Wayne's brother decided his family

35:24

needed answers. My

35:26

brother, James Lee, called

35:28

him Tom, he had polio

35:31

when he was three. It

35:33

always made him a little more of a homebody. He

35:36

had got into... studying

35:39

all of our family history. When

35:42

he was a teenager, he

35:44

was writing the hospital. I've got a

35:46

copy of the letter that he sent in 77,

35:48

which he would have been a teenager then, but

35:51

not far from it, asking about

35:53

our grandfather. And

35:55

he had called down there to the

35:57

hospital and asked about our father and

35:59

grandfather. And they said, well, We

36:02

don't know where he is. We

36:05

can't send you any medical records

36:07

it's against the law and that

36:09

He might be buried under one

36:11

of these buildings out here owner

36:14

of a street. We don't know

36:16

and so My brother was pretty

36:18

persistent about that through the years

36:20

and he got me interested probably

36:23

about 15 years ago and so

36:25

my brother passed away two years

36:27

ago some kind of kind of

36:30

carry on what He had started.

36:32

It was very important. A

36:34

lot more important to him, all those years that

36:37

he spent on it than it was to me.

36:39

I was just a kid and I didn't know.

36:42

At this point, 75 years had passed

36:44

and they had nothing to go off

36:46

of but their mother's teenage memories. Wayne

36:51

knew the answers about his grandfather existed.

36:54

They lay in those medical records his brother

36:56

had tried to get back in the 70s.

36:58

In every step of the way, they were

37:00

always saying, no, no, no, we're not giving

37:03

out any records. Knowing the answers were there,

37:05

only to have someone say, you

37:08

can't have them, it ate it, Wayne.

37:11

But getting them would require waiting into

37:13

an ethical and bureaucratic mess only the

37:15

deep south can cook up. This

37:18

wasn't just some clerk being difficult. To

37:21

understand why Wayne couldn't get those records,

37:23

we have to talk about how the

37:25

state views the bodies laid to rest

37:27

at Asylum Hill. For

37:29

starters, they don't call them bodies.

37:32

Here's Dr. Ralph Didlake, the mind

37:34

behind the Asylum Hill project. We

37:37

have, in a way, inherited these patients

37:39

and we want to care for them

37:41

in the very best way we can.

37:44

We need to set a standard, we need to

37:46

be an example, and we need to treat these

37:49

as our patients. This

37:51

perspective, though, complicates things because

37:53

the Medical Center can't share

37:55

patient records without patient consent.

37:58

which presents a problem in

38:00

this case, because the patients

38:03

have all passed on. Even

38:05

in the pediatric world, parents

38:07

don't give consent for their

38:09

children. They give permission for

38:11

their children. That's the

38:14

modern bioethics theories at the

38:16

moment. I reported on

38:18

Mississippi politics for years, so I'm

38:20

used to state institutions hiding information

38:22

behind arcane laws and statutes, and

38:25

I can imagine why they'd want

38:27

to keep these records hidden. In

38:30

many cases, they won't paint a rosy

38:32

picture of life in the state asylum.

38:35

So I was pretty surprised to

38:37

find out that the push to

38:39

unveil these medical records came from

38:41

a state -sponsored institution, the

38:44

Asylum Hill Project. But

38:46

if you want to release records, first you've

38:48

got to find someone to release them to.

38:51

That means finding next of kin. How

38:54

exactly do you do that when all

38:56

the graves are unmarked and the last

38:59

one was dug more than 80 years

39:01

ago? That's when we come back.

39:07

The largest art museum in the state,

39:09

the Mississippi Museum of Art connects Mississippi

39:11

to the world and the power of

39:14

art to the power of community. Located

39:16

in downtown Jackson, the museum's permanent collection

39:18

is free to the public. National

39:21

and international exhibitions rotate throughout the

39:23

year, allowing visitors to experience works

39:25

from around the world. The

39:27

gardens and expansive lawn at the Mississippi

39:29

Museum of Art are home to art

39:31

installations and a variety of events for

39:33

all ages. Plan

39:35

your visit today at

39:38

msmuseumart .org That's msmuseumart

39:41

.org Time

39:43

is precious and so are our pets. So

39:46

time with our pets is extra precious.

39:48

That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides

39:50

24 -7 access to licensed vets with

39:52

unlimited virtual visits and follow -ups for

39:54

up to five pets. You can message

39:56

a vet at any time and schedule

39:58

a video visit the same day. Our

40:01

vets can even prescribe medication for many

40:03

ailments and shipping is always free. With

40:06

Dutch you'll get more time with your pets and year

40:08

-round peace of mind when it comes to their vet

40:10

care. Something

40:14

unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed

40:17

to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone

40:19

Valley Season 1. I just knew

40:21

him as a kid. Long, silent

40:24

voices from his past came forward.

40:26

And he was just staring at

40:28

me. And they had secrets of

40:30

their own to share. Um,

40:33

Gilbert came. I'm

40:35

the son of Jeremy

40:37

Lynn Scott. I was

40:40

no longer just telling the story. I

40:42

was part of it. Every time I hear

40:44

about my dad is, oh, he's a

40:47

killer. He's just straight evil. I was becoming

40:49

the bridge between a killer and the

40:51

son he'd never known. If the

40:53

cops and everything would have done their job properly, my dad

40:55

would have been in jail. I would have never existed. I

40:58

never expected to find myself in this

41:00

place. Now, I

41:02

need to tell you how I got here. At

41:05

the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer. Bone

41:08

Valley, season two, Jeremy.

41:11

Jeremy, I want to tell you something. Mary

41:37

Pinchow -Meyer was a painter who

41:39

lived in Georgetown in Washington, D

41:42

.C. Every day, she took a

41:44

daily walk along a towpath near

41:46

the ENO Canal. So when she

41:48

was killed in a wealthy neighborhood...

41:50

She had been shot twice in

41:53

the head and in the back

41:55

behind the heart. The police arrived

41:57

in a heartbeat. Within

41:59

40 a man named

42:01

Raymond Crump Jr. was arrested. He

42:04

was found nearby, soaking wet. and

42:06

he was black. Only

42:08

one woman dared defend him.

42:10

Civil rights lawyer, W. Roundtree.

42:14

Join me as we unravel

42:16

this story with a crazy

42:18

twist, because what most people

42:20

didn't know is that Mary

42:22

was connected to a very

42:24

powerful man. I pledge you

42:26

that we shall neither commit

42:28

nor provoke aggression. John

42:30

F. Kennedy. Listen to

42:32

Murder on the Topat with Soledad

42:34

O 'Brien on the iHeartRadio app,

42:37

Apple podcasts, or wherever you get

42:39

your podcasts. The

42:54

legend of the highwayman suggests men

42:57

dominated the field, but tell that

42:59

to Lady Catherine Ferrars, known as

43:01

the Wicked Lady, who terrorized England

43:03

in the mid -1600s. Her legend

43:05

persists nearly 400 years after her

43:08

death. Hear the story

43:10

of the gentleman robber, the romantic darling

43:12

of the ladies, and a

43:14

tale about a wager over a sack of potatoes,

43:16

but you'll have to tune in to learn who

43:18

won that one. Some highwaymen

43:20

were well -mannered or faked it.

43:23

People were concerned about the romanticism

43:25

of robbers, but most were just

43:27

thugs. Highwaymen are in

43:29

the hot seat this season. Call

43:31

them robbers or bandits, some are

43:33

legendary figures. Listen to stories about

43:35

historical crimes on Criminalia now, plus

43:38

the cocktails and mocktails inspired by

43:40

each. Listen to Criminalia on the

43:42

iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

43:44

you get your podcasts. The

43:55

University of Mississippi Medical Center in

43:57

Jackson is heading up an archaeological

43:59

excavation. It's part of a program

44:01

called the Asylum Hill Project and

44:03

today representatives from UMC came to

44:06

the Wayne County Library to invite

44:08

locals to get involved in that

44:10

project. We have spoken at libraries

44:12

and rotary clubs and anyone who

44:15

would stand still and listen all

44:17

over the state to try to

44:19

get the message out so they

44:21

can inform us. and we

44:24

can inform them. The Asylum

44:26

Hill Project basically went on

44:28

a statewide tour across Mississippi,

44:30

hell -bent on tracking down

44:32

any descendants they could. If

44:35

you'd even heard a whisper in your family of

44:37

someone who'd been sent to the old asylum, they

44:40

wanted to talk to you. One,

44:42

they have the old history of

44:44

the families. They have the documents,

44:47

they have the photographs. We

44:49

would like to archive all of that. They

44:52

need to sign off on what we

44:54

are doing. So we have that community

44:56

engagement piece. We also want to

44:58

be fully transparent. We don't

45:00

want anyone in any part of

45:03

the state to feel that we're

45:05

up here doing this without informing

45:07

everyone. This is where

45:09

that southern ethos comes back in.

45:11

That reverence for the grave. We

45:16

want this to bring these people

45:18

who have been in this unmarked

45:20

cemetery, we want to bring them

45:22

back into the community in some

45:24

way. And we

45:26

think that preserving those stories,

45:28

if the family desires that,

45:31

helps us fill in the

45:33

gaps of the story of

45:35

the institution and memorializes them

45:37

in some way. We have

45:39

the ethical standing to do

45:42

what we're doing. Have

45:44

we entered into an ethical calculus? Absolutely.

45:48

because the needs of our

45:50

future patients are our ethical

45:52

burden, and we have to

45:55

weigh that against the interests

45:57

of the individuals buried there

45:59

in the descendant community. But

46:02

even after clearing the ethical hurdles, there

46:04

were still legal issues. If

46:07

you've ever filled out a form in a

46:09

doctor's office, you've probably heard of HIPAA. It's

46:11

that law that keeps medical records from being

46:13

seen by anyone who isn't either the patient

46:15

or the provider. That stays

46:17

in effect until the patient's been

46:19

dead for 50 years. And

46:22

then, Mississippi had a second

46:24

law in the books for mental health

46:26

records that shielded them, like, until

46:29

the end of time. Hey,

46:31

privacy is privacy. In

46:33

order to get individual patient records, they have

46:36

to sign an affidavit and have a witness

46:38

and all of that, that they are the

46:40

people who should be getting these records. And

46:43

that's just something that was just worked, I

46:45

mean, recently, like within the past two months

46:47

that we've worked out. The

46:50

Center for Bioethics and Medical Humanities

46:52

does have custody now of many

46:55

of the old individual patient records.

46:58

I'm very sensitive about those. I try

47:00

not to gawk. Would I

47:02

want anybody looking at my mental health records?

47:04

No. And so I try to be very

47:06

respectful. And then there

47:08

was the logistical quagmire. There

47:12

are more than 1 ,000 boxes

47:14

of records. All jumbled

47:16

together, no rhyme or reason, newly

47:18

rescued from a storage unit. The

47:21

only way to parse through them

47:24

all is to parse through them

47:26

all. Box by box, page by

47:28

page. And not just

47:30

anybody can do it. Remember

47:33

our old friend HIPAA? Some

47:35

of the patients whose records are in

47:37

those boxes could have died in the

47:39

last 50 years. So in

47:41

order to look through any of these

47:44

records, you've got to have special HIPAA

47:46

training. So

47:48

for many of the families of these

47:50

former patients, the suspense will be building

47:53

for a while. You know,

47:55

I'm very sensitive about, like, who gets

47:57

to see those? But they're

48:00

all together. They're not separated by

48:02

years. I think I estimated that

48:04

it would take five years, given

48:06

our current staffing, to just get

48:09

everything indexed and separated. Wayne, though,

48:11

is one of the lucky ones.

48:14

And so finally, a month ago, I get

48:16

a copy of those medical records. So I'm

48:19

getting closure. In terms

48:21

of length, His grandfather's file fell

48:23

somewhere in the middle, 62 pages.

48:26

He'd laid them all out for us to see

48:28

on his cousin Bill's kitchen counter. What

48:31

is legible in them? Is there anything that

48:33

you think is worth sharing with us? I'll

48:35

share it all with you. What's

48:38

legible? And some

48:40

of it wasn't legible until I went

48:43

through and connected the dots. These

48:45

were files from the 1930s.

48:48

The originals were handwritten by nurses and

48:51

doctors. and nurses and doctors

48:53

in a hurry. Add

48:55

on to that the fact that they

48:57

were digitized in the earliest days of

48:59

scanning technology, and you

49:01

realize Wayne wasn't speaking figuratively when

49:04

he said, connect the dots. Wayne

49:07

painstakingly went through the records, crossed

49:09

referencing with LIDA to figure out

49:12

medical terms from the era. And

49:14

one of the things That

49:17

is said there at the end of

49:19

a couple of the reports like where

49:21

the nurse said, you know, he had

49:23

a good day or he had a

49:25

bad day or whatever a couple of

49:27

times they said acted stupid today There

49:29

was a clinical term that he just

49:31

didn't act normal today. Most of the

49:33

days they said he was Well, they

49:35

said from the beginning that he caused

49:37

any problem He was very paranoid you

49:39

wouldn't get out of there. He couldn't

49:41

get out of bed and it says

49:43

large stool That

49:46

kind of thing. Small stool. Visually

49:52

bad day, restless. Then

49:57

you get to here.

50:00

One -three. Bath

50:04

-given. Backdress,

50:07

sleeping. Very

50:10

restless. Not sure

50:12

what that is. It expired. He

50:15

had a half glass of milk, expired

50:18

at 1 .30 on the

50:20

3rd. A

50:23

man's death noted in the

50:25

same breath as his sleeping

50:27

habits. But

50:29

in spite of the faint writing, the

50:32

outdated vocabulary, all the things

50:34

that made these records almost indecipherable,

50:37

Wayne still got the answer that he needed

50:39

the most. One, it turns out

50:41

the state had tried to give Wayne's

50:43

brother back in the 70s. This

50:46

is from the hospital to my brother

50:48

James T. Lee. Dear

50:51

Mr. Lee, the medical record

50:53

department has received your letter concerning

50:55

John Benedict Whitfield. We

50:58

regret that we will

51:00

not be able to

51:02

provide a copy of

51:04

your grandfather's hospital record

51:06

as state statute 412197

51:09

prohibits release of medical

51:11

records. However, we can

51:13

understand your family's concern with

51:15

the circumstances of your grandfather's

51:17

death. The cause of death

51:20

was Pilegra, which is

51:22

a clinical deficiency syndrome, and

51:24

of course is not an

51:26

inherited disease. It may be

51:29

helpful for you to know that the record

51:31

indicates that J .B. Whitfield's

51:34

father, Joseph Whitfield, died

51:36

at the age of 90, of old age.

51:39

It is also stated that there was

51:41

no history of mental illness in the

51:43

family. We hope the

51:46

information would be meaningful to you and

51:48

your family. Sincerely, Faye Thomas, Medical

51:51

Record Department. Cause of Death, Pelagra.

51:54

Like Faye's letter mentioned, it was

51:57

a nutrient deficiency, not a mental

51:59

illness. We'll come back to

52:01

Pelagra later on. It plays a large role in

52:03

the Old Asylum story. As

52:05

for Wayne, a Pelagra

52:08

diagnosis, was sweet, sweet relief.

52:38

of that that caused

52:40

these effects. There

52:43

was no illness in the family. And

52:47

so, you know, there's

52:49

some closure with that. He sound relieved

52:51

on us that he was in there

52:53

for Collagra and not for something else.

52:55

What's that about? OK.

53:00

Wayne had driven about 12 hours

53:02

straight from Durham, North Carolina to

53:04

Jackson, Mississippi, just to speak with

53:06

us. He wanted to make sure

53:08

his grandfather's story got told. But

53:11

then, Wayne told us his. I

53:15

always knew that my youngest

53:17

son had some issues. He

53:20

was a really sweet kid, good kid. But

53:23

I always had a fear that maybe

53:25

he had inherited something from his mom.

53:27

He was a teenager. He

53:30

started developing mental illness

53:32

and became homeless when

53:34

he was like... 18.

53:37

I lived on the street off and

53:40

on. My first wife had mental problems.

53:43

Her mother had mental problems. Her

53:45

grandmother had mental problems. And

53:48

one time, she kind of threw it up to

53:50

me, where your grandfather had mental problems. I'm

53:54

like, so anyway. Wayne

53:57

and his first wife had children together,

53:59

two boys. When those boys

54:02

were 13 and nine years old, Wayne got

54:04

full custody. It was the

54:06

end of a rough, brutal divorce. I

54:09

knew that she definitely had the mental

54:11

illness because she would make up all

54:13

this stuff in her mind. She would

54:16

believe it. But anyway, I've

54:18

had to deal with some mental illness. Things

54:21

settled down for a while after that. But

54:24

once Wayne's youngest hit his late teenage years,

54:27

things took a turn. He

54:29

robbed a bank when he was 19. So

54:32

he walked in the bank, handed him a note,

54:34

said, I need $85 ,000. And

54:37

they laughed and said, yeah, me too. He

54:40

said, no, I think you might have

54:42

misunderstood me. I need $85 ,000. This

54:44

is a holdup. And I have

54:46

a weapon. We didn't, but anyway, they

54:48

gave him the money. He went

54:50

to prison for three and

54:53

a half years. It

54:56

was a terrible experience. When

54:58

his son got out, he emerged with a

55:01

diagnosis. Paranoid schizophrenia.

55:04

Wayne learned that his son had been

55:06

hearing voices since his 20s. If somebody

55:09

walked in a room, a

55:11

lot of times he would just start laughing. They

55:13

couldn't figure out what he was laughing about. And

55:16

I said, what are you laughing about? Oh, nothing. It

55:19

would just be uncontrollable. And

55:22

then in time, one day,

55:24

it finally came out that

55:26

if a woman walked in

55:28

a room, He said, the

55:30

voice would say, boy, she has big. And

55:34

so then it made sense that every

55:36

time we went somewhere in public, somebody

55:38

comes walking up, he'd just look and

55:40

he'd laugh and he'd put his head

55:42

down and sometimes he'd just have to

55:45

walk out of the room. But

55:47

he was hearing voices. The

55:49

time Wayne's son spent in prison did nothing

55:51

to help his mental illness. Prisons

55:54

are basically to punish.

55:57

And so He got

55:59

out, I got him six and

56:01

eight housing and got him more

56:03

jobs, but nothing ever lasted. You

56:06

know, got him medical care, but

56:08

you can't make somebody take the medication. If

56:11

they have mental problems, you

56:13

know, hopefully you can help

56:15

them, but you can't make

56:17

them. Wayne's son went in and

56:19

out of prison, off then

56:22

back onto the street. This

56:24

went on for more than a

56:26

decade at the end of it.

56:28

Wayne's son was killed by another

56:30

man near his age, also suffering

56:32

from mental illness. And

56:36

when he died,

56:39

you know, that night, it was

56:41

terrible. And I

56:43

was praying about it, and I

56:45

couldn't sleep. And I said, God,

56:47

don't let me go to the

56:49

dark side. Don't let me be

56:51

bitter. Help me through this.

56:54

And I had I got through

56:56

it. I had no remorse toward that

56:59

family, toward the man that did it.

57:01

I feel sorry for him and his family

57:04

because it could have been my son that

57:06

could have been the other way around. And

57:09

so that's how I have,

57:11

that's why I guess I

57:13

have a certain feelings about

57:15

my illness is because I've

57:17

lived through it with people

57:19

never in my family other

57:21

than my son, but

57:23

with my ex -wives. in

57:25

her family. Mental

57:29

illness is a tough thing, but I always knew.

57:32

You know, we had been hearing that

57:34

Pylegra was involved in it, but I

57:36

just never got it official until, you

57:39

know, reading all these medical records. And

57:42

just from the research that I had done on

57:44

Pylegra, you know,

57:46

it said it causes these

57:49

problems. And

57:52

yeah. And whether he was or

57:54

he wasn't, I've never looked at

57:56

it like, well, that's

57:59

not a reflection on me.

58:01

But like you said, it

58:03

could be traced or passed

58:05

down. So when you said that

58:07

your ex -wife used to say, well, you

58:09

know, you have this in your family, was

58:11

it in the context of your son that

58:13

she would say that or? Yeah.

58:19

Yeah, it's like, yeah. But

58:22

anyway. That's the past.

58:25

That's the past. The

58:27

past that can be left in the

58:29

ground or brought back to life, that

58:32

can bring pain or bring comfort or

58:34

a mix of both. Wayne's

58:37

closure doesn't just lie in the diagnosis

58:40

and how that connects to present and

58:42

future generations of Wayne's family. It

58:45

lies in those brief moments and

58:47

notes the nurses outlined in knowing

58:49

that the asylum staff even with

58:52

their limited resources, had tried to

58:54

help his grandfather. It

58:56

showed that this man hadn't been locked away

58:58

and forgotten. I mean, what

59:00

does it mean to have, like, for

59:02

somebody who has died, what does it

59:05

mean for them to have a memorial?

59:07

Just acknowledging that that person

59:10

you're relative and that this

59:12

was their life. This is

59:14

when they were born and

59:17

died and this is where

59:19

they're laid. Showing respect.

59:21

What is the value if you

59:24

have died of being acknowledged by

59:26

the living? Is

59:28

there anything for the deceased? Maybe

59:31

it is. Oh hell, it's

59:34

like Eva Perone When she

59:36

was dying They said what's

59:39

your greatest wish and she

59:41

said I want to be

59:43

remembered I want

59:45

to be remembered. That's the reason I'm

59:48

putting a stone over in this cemetery

59:50

over here. It is, we

59:52

all want to be remembered for goodness

59:54

sake. And

59:57

I've thought, you know, this is

59:59

a man I never met. You

1:00:02

know, I'm not sure about the afterlife. And

1:00:05

I'm not sure if he's up in heaven. He's

1:00:07

cheering me on. But in the

1:00:09

last couple of days, I was thinking, You

1:00:11

know, maybe he's just there saying, hey, you

1:00:14

guys, this is my grandson. He's

1:00:17

trying to tell the world that

1:00:19

we're here and where I am.

1:00:22

And I love him for that. As

1:00:27

Southerners, we're predisposed to make meaning

1:00:29

from our histories, probably

1:00:31

more than we should. Our

1:00:33

region's unwillingness to move on, our

1:00:36

tendency to continually valorize the

1:00:39

past, Often our Achilles heel.

1:00:42

But on a small scale, like

1:00:44

one cemetery and it's keepers,

1:00:47

maybe holding the past close can help

1:00:49

you move on. Wherever

1:00:53

you believe people go when they're gone,

1:00:55

whatever you believe should be done with

1:00:57

their remains, what better memorial than to

1:01:00

tell their stories? To

1:01:02

remember their lives. So initially,

1:01:04

of course, what brought about

1:01:06

this project was the need

1:01:08

for UMMC to reclaim the

1:01:10

land. But it has turned

1:01:12

into more of a commitment,

1:01:14

I think, to tell these

1:01:16

stories, to tell the stories

1:01:18

of the descendants. And

1:01:21

a lot of people say that we're trying

1:01:23

to give voice to the patients. Giving

1:01:26

voice seems to pushy

1:01:29

to me. I think if we are quiet

1:01:31

enough and we learn enough about what was

1:01:34

going on, we can hear their voices. We

1:01:36

don't need to give them voice. The

1:01:39

voices are there. The voices are

1:01:41

there. And sometimes

1:01:43

the story they tell, it's not the one

1:01:45

you thought you were going to hear. That's

1:01:49

next on Under Yazoo Clay.

1:01:52

I mean, my suspicion

1:01:54

there is the silence

1:01:56

is the... response

1:01:58

to the shame. It

1:02:01

gets buried down so

1:02:03

deep that any kind

1:02:05

of scratch of the

1:02:08

surface bubbles up this

1:02:10

uncontrollable emotional response that

1:02:12

then has to be

1:02:15

tamped down quick. Under

1:02:18

Yazoo Clay is executive produced by the

1:02:20

Mississippi Museum of Art in partnership with

1:02:22

Pod People. It's hosted by

1:02:24

me, Larison Campbell, and written and produced

1:02:26

by Rebecca Chassan and myself with help

1:02:28

from Angela Yee and Amy Machado, with

1:02:31

editing and sound design by Morgan Fuss

1:02:33

and Erica Wong. And thanks to Blue

1:02:35

Dot Sessions for music. Special

1:02:37

thanks to Betsy Bradley at the Mississippi

1:02:39

Museum of Art, as well as Leida

1:02:42

Gibson at the Center for Bioethics and

1:02:44

Medical Humanities at the University of Mississippi

1:02:46

Medical Center, Visit Jackson, and Jay Ndini

1:02:48

Stein. Lanny

1:02:59

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debt. A little bit over $100 ,000.

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1:04:01

Something unexpected happened after Jeremy

1:04:03

Scott confessed to killing Michelle

1:04:06

in Bone Valley Season 1. Every time

1:04:08

I hear about my dad is, oh,

1:04:10

he's a killer. He's just straight

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evil. I was becoming the

1:04:14

bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son

1:04:16

he'd never known. At the end

1:04:19

of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer. Listen

1:04:21

to new episodes of Bone

1:04:23

Valley Season 2 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple

1:04:25

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

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podcasts. I'm

1:04:30

O 'Brien and on my

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Path, I'm taking you back

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to 1964 to the cold of

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shot twice in the head

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and in the back. It

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turns out Mary was connected

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to a very powerful man. I

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pledge you that we

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shall neither commit nor provoke aggression.

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John F. Kennedy. Kennedy. Listen to Murder

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on the Toe Path with O

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'Brien on the I Heart Radio app,

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