0:05

Welcome to Unfuck Your Brain.

0:08

I'm your host, Kara Lowenthal,

0:10

Master Certified Coach, and founder

0:12

of the School of New

0:14

Feminist Thought. I'm here to

0:16

help you turn down your anxiety,

0:18

turn up your confidence, and create

0:21

a life on your own terms,

0:23

one that you're truly excited

0:25

to live. Let's go. Hello

0:27

my friends. I'm so excited for

0:30

today because you all know that

0:32

one of my soap boxes is... The

0:34

way we think about marriage and

0:36

romantic relationships and the socialization that

0:38

women get around those things, and I

0:40

often say, even though it doesn't make any sense,

0:43

that I sort of still feel like in my

0:45

heart that I'm single, even though I'm married, because

0:47

I feel more like affiliated with and

0:49

aligned with single women and the way that

0:51

they get to live their lives, and I try

0:53

to live my life pretty much like that

0:55

despite being married, I have a cooperative partner,

0:58

and he has a lot of autonomy too. But

1:00

anyway. So I'm very excited about

1:02

this conversation. I'm here with Megan

1:04

Kane, who has a book all about this called

1:06

Party of One, Be Your Own Best Partner,

1:08

and so we're going to start with

1:10

our normal routine where I make

1:12

women brag about themselves and... They do

1:15

so either resentfully or happily or somewhere

1:17

in the tweet. So tell us

1:19

about yourself. Hi. Absolutely. Thank you

1:21

so much for having me. Yes,

1:23

I am the showrunner and founder

1:25

of NPR's Life Kit, which is

1:27

NPR's service journalism brand, started about

1:29

seven years ago now at this

1:31

point, which is now half of

1:34

my whole. working career and career

1:36

at NPR and I guess the

1:38

brag is that I was you

1:40

know trusted by the Powers to

1:42

be at NPR to create a

1:44

whole new podcast that became a brand

1:46

with you know a lot of wonderful people

1:48

that helped me along the way and still

1:50

do every day to make the show and

1:53

it's you know not just me but I

1:55

feel very honored and proud to be the

1:57

leader of that to do something that like

1:59

helps people. they, you probably feel this

2:01

with your show too, like when they listen,

2:03

they feel like, you know, I feel a

2:06

little bit less alone. I feel like I

2:08

have a tool now that I can, you

2:10

know, improve my life in some way. And

2:12

so that's, I think, the biggest brag for

2:14

me is that I feel like I get

2:17

to, I get to help people in a

2:19

way, even if it's a small thing, like,

2:21

oh, I just felt like a little, a

2:23

little bit more capable today. I think that's

2:25

still a big deal. I mean, nobody goes

2:28

from like, I feel like shit, I feel

2:30

amazing over night. Right. Yeah. Those little wins

2:32

you get better. And we're so conditioned not

2:34

to celebrate them, especially for socializes women. And

2:36

I love about life kit that it is

2:39

like practical help. Like there's so much self-development

2:41

or self-help or whatever we're going to call

2:43

it. I mean... lifekit maybe be adjacent to

2:45

that however you would call it. No you're

2:47

right it's self-development self-help you're totally right. So

2:50

much stuff out there that's just like just

2:52

like believe in yourself yeah well yeah if

2:54

I knew how to fucking do that listening

2:56

to this podcast would I? Yeah I think

2:58

self-help can a lot of times be kind

3:01

of like bumper sticker statements that feel you

3:03

know so big and I think sometimes that

3:05

really helps people and really works for people

3:07

but for people like me I need you

3:09

to break down the steps and that's a

3:12

lot of lifekit is like, okay, this seems

3:14

simple on the face, but how do you

3:16

actually get to that bigger place of saving

3:18

more money, feeling better, more self-confident, feeling like

3:20

a good parent? How do you actually do

3:23

that is the question. And so hopefully we're

3:25

demystifying some of life secrets. Yeah, I mean,

3:27

I think that's what I have always felt

3:29

like sets my work apart is like being

3:31

very, there is big picture. There's that socialization

3:34

lens, which is very big picture, but then

3:36

there's very concrete like... here's how you actually

3:38

change a thought because all of my experience

3:40

of self-development until that had been like great

3:43

yeah that sounds nice oh yeah I have

3:45

that insight and now I just lived the

3:47

rest of my life watching myself do this

3:49

thing with all the insights look at me

3:51

making the same self-destructive decision over and over

3:54

again with anyway you're here we can talk

3:56

about that all day no I mean it

3:58

kind of relates to What we're talking about

4:00

we're going to talk about. Tell us about

4:02

what inspired you to write this book and the

4:04

kind of the big picture of it. And of

4:06

course, we'll talk more about the details. Sure. I

4:09

mean, a little bit like we were just talking

4:11

about this big idea of like, be okay

4:13

with your singleness and be okay with feeling,

4:15

you know, comfortable in your own being a

4:17

person on your own. I was like, that

4:20

sounds great. I know that's valid, I know

4:22

that's wonderful, but I was like, how do

4:24

I do that day to day though? Right?

4:26

Like so I really, it was, you know,

4:28

the me search, right, that I wanted to

4:31

find for myself. You know, I've been single

4:33

most of my life. And in my late

4:35

20s, as I write about the early part

4:37

of my book, I had a series of

4:40

breakups that really rocked me. They were

4:42

relationships that were... you know, fine,

4:44

good to fine, but they were

4:47

both relationships where I was more

4:49

concerned about being in any relationship

4:51

than to be in the right

4:54

relationship for me. And so as

4:56

a result, I was not asking

4:58

really critical questions about my values.

5:01

Do we have the same values? Do we

5:03

actually want to build a life together? You

5:05

know, things that are big questions if you

5:07

are looking for a partner, right? Not just

5:10

casually dating, but I was really scared to

5:12

rock the boat because I felt like, oh,

5:14

I waited so long to get into a

5:17

relationship. I should just like be

5:19

quiet, just like let things go. When

5:21

I did speak my mind, it would

5:23

erupt in a blowout, right? It was

5:25

not constructive conflict. So I was dumped

5:28

by both of those relationships. In hindsight,

5:30

probably because we never did talk about

5:32

those things and they realized it before

5:34

I did that this was not going

5:37

to work. And so I was feeling

5:39

like, okay, how do I get out

5:41

of this whole of knowing that singleness

5:43

is wonderful? I have plenty of great

5:46

positive examples of singleness. The rest of

5:48

my life feels very good, good job. You

5:50

know, I make nice money. I had a

5:52

good apartment. I had a lot of friends

5:55

and hobbies, but this... piece of the puzzle

5:57

seems to be kind of glaring back at

5:59

me. So how do I get from knowing to actually

6:01

feeling that? And that's what I set out to do in

6:03

the book. Yeah, I think that's

6:05

such a huge thing. And doing this work

6:07

when you're single, it's like you have

6:09

to do it while you're almost like while

6:11

there's like psyops happening around you all

6:13

the Yes. I did culture, like I did

6:15

a similar huge of work on my

6:18

body image first, and then I did my

6:20

kind of singleness after that. But both

6:22

times, it's sort of like you're like trying

6:24

to nurture this fragile little flower of

6:26

like new thoughts and like new perspectives and

6:28

self -believe. And you're just like, ah, I

6:30

just need everything else to like, like,

6:32

could I get in a vacuum for like

6:34

six months and just try to like this

6:36

little plant that I'm trying to kind of nurture?

6:40

Yeah, I feel that because I think for

6:42

me, you know, I'm 35, elder millennial.

6:44

And I was like, you know, when I

6:46

was growing up, I was like, well,

6:48

I don't want to be a Disney princess.

6:50

Like I thought I, you know, I

6:52

knew better. And I did intellectually understand like

6:54

what it means to be feminist and

6:56

to be your own person. And to not

6:58

settle. But I didn't realize how much

7:00

the messages of culture can still seep in

7:02

and how much you still have to

7:04

confront and pause and just pause and think,

7:06

what do I actually want before I

7:08

move forward with any part of my life?

7:10

Right. And that was also a big part

7:13

of what I needed to do to like

7:15

kind of settle down. I call it the

7:17

haze, like the, the cultural messaging that gets,

7:19

you know, kind of surrounded by it feels

7:21

like it's all you can see. Instead of

7:23

just pausing, poking your head out to the

7:25

side and be like, oh, there's a whole

7:27

other world out here. It's a lot clearer. Yeah.

7:30

I mean, I think this is some of the deepest work.

7:32

Like with body image stuff, it's incredibly

7:34

deeply ingrained. But I think there's like,

7:36

maybe what's easier to say, what's harder about

7:38

the relationship stuff is it gets so

7:41

mixed up and conflated with what is a

7:43

natural human drive for just intimacy in general,

7:45

which doesn't have to be a romantic

7:47

or sexual partner. But there is a natural,

7:49

I think, for most of us, pineate

7:51

connection of just like intimacy and

7:53

hunter -gatherers grew up in close. And at tribes, we're

7:55

used to having that, right? So the body image

7:57

sort of, there isn't that thing. It's like, I

7:59

like like you can be very deep in it but

8:02

once you like can see it you can see it

8:04

I think I found this area more

8:06

challenging in some ways because those things

8:08

are mixed up because there's like this

8:10

part that you don't want to get

8:13

rid of which is the instinct towards

8:15

human connection yeah but it's so like

8:17

with body image it's like oh this

8:19

is all toxic if I could get

8:22

this all out right yeah exactly But

8:24

with the drive for human connection, it's

8:26

like part of that is valuable, part

8:29

of that is natural, but then the

8:31

way it gets channeled into like, no,

8:33

this, only this kind of connection matters,

8:35

and it's going to validate you, and

8:38

it's going to save you, and it's

8:40

going to give your life meaning,

8:42

and it's going to mean you're

8:44

good enough, and everybody will respect

8:47

you and think you're good, like

8:49

there's so much put on it. But my

8:51

emotional reactions to things happening around me, right? I

8:53

talk about it in my book, like, yeah,

8:55

intellectually, I think, like, nobody should need a

8:57

man, and the patriarchy, blah, blah, blah, blah, but like...

9:00

Some dude named Chad has a test of

9:02

track on tinder. Yeah. He didn't have an

9:04

anxiety. He was like, don't know his last

9:06

name, but now he is the sole arbiter

9:08

of my worth and self-esteem for the next

9:10

three. Oh, I know. The Chad's of the

9:12

world. I know God. Poor Chad. There's probably

9:15

some nice Chad. Yeah, statistically, there's got to

9:17

be. Oh, what a loud mess. I'm trying.

9:19

How do you think those stories, those kind

9:21

of Disney stories that we grew up that

9:23

we grew up with, impact our view on

9:25

romantic relationships and signal this?

9:27

Yeah, I mean, I think that this is

9:29

something that a lot of people have pointed

9:32

out, right? I'm not the first, but like

9:34

a lot of those stories end

9:36

with they get together, right? And you

9:38

don't see what's on the other side

9:41

of a relationship. Now when a relationship's

9:43

good, it mostly feels easy and like

9:45

you can come to your partner and

9:47

talk to them and, you know, but

9:50

it's still intentional, right? Rather than

9:52

just, now here is your adult

9:54

coronation. this wedding and now you

9:56

will be happy forever happily ever

9:59

after right And I think there's

10:01

obviously so many misconceptions packed into

10:03

that. And a big one is

10:06

that happy is a destination, that

10:08

it is a fixed state. Happiness

10:10

is an emotion that comes and goes,

10:12

just like emotions. You are singing our

10:14

song on the top. This is like,

10:16

I love it. It's so good. From

10:19

their parents, but they can hear it

10:21

from somebody else. Totally. But yeah, I

10:23

mean, it is easy to think, okay,

10:25

like, you get this thing, and then everything

10:27

else is solved. When it takes.

10:29

I would say just mostly intention, right,

10:31

to build good relationships and also a

10:34

lot of those stories about how people

10:36

come together and partner up are based

10:38

on things that are like solely like

10:40

the chemistry or how hot they find

10:42

each other, right? And like those are

10:44

part of the puzzle, but again, you

10:46

know, it also, you know, comes down

10:48

to what kind of life do you

10:51

actually want to build together? Do you

10:53

have similar values? How are the ways

10:55

that you feel like this person? adds

10:57

to your life rather than completes your

10:59

life, right? And those are messages

11:01

that are not neatly contained in

11:04

ROMcoms. And I write in the book,

11:06

I actually, I love ROMcoms. My favorite,

11:08

you know, I actually have her book

11:10

right behind me is Nora Efron books

11:12

and movies, because I think what those

11:14

show is that friendship makes up a

11:17

really good part of a relationship. and

11:19

you're kind of following love also with

11:21

someone's personality how they make you feel

11:23

and like that ease that comes up

11:25

where if it's just a oh my

11:27

gosh I used to hate you but

11:29

now I like you kind of trope

11:32

that's not a lot of like grounds

11:34

for a relationship. I feel like

11:36

that's just socialization to like

11:38

women like if somebody seems distant

11:40

or mean or weird you should probably

11:43

fall in love with them like yeah

11:45

it's almost like maybe it's just a

11:47

It's a manifestation of what women are

11:49

socialized and trained to do, which is like,

11:52

feel bad enough about ourselves. If somebody can

11:54

like activate that in us, we become desperate

11:56

for their approval and acceptance. So it's

11:58

almost totally dramatized. But

12:00

it's just thinking about the, when you were talking

12:02

about your breakups, like one of the things that looking

12:04

back, I'm like, I can see now is so

12:07

fascinating to me. So I'm like, oh, there were guys

12:09

who broke up with me where I thought they were

12:11

like terrible assholes now and all my friends would have

12:13

agreed and all of that, right? And

12:15

they were actually just totally right about, it

12:18

wasn't about me being that, right? It's

12:20

like, why you compatible? Like I had

12:22

like one other like great love affairs of

12:24

my life. We broke up because he basically

12:26

was like, I mean, he knew himself.

12:28

I don't approve of this choice, but it's

12:30

not like, not high values, let's say, but

12:32

like he was like, I kind of want to

12:35

be a workaholic and I want someone who

12:37

will like be my wife and take care of the

12:39

home. I'm like, the family and is it going

12:41

to basically have too many demands on me? You

12:43

know, and he's like, you're someone who's going to want your partner

12:45

to be like all in on the relationship and like have

12:47

a really high intimacy and spend a lot of time and attention

12:49

on it. And I'm like, now in

12:51

retrospect, I'm like, a hundred percent correct.

12:53

Like that. Yeah, it's not the life that

12:55

you would want. And like, you don't

12:57

to be grateful for it cut being cut

12:59

off. Yeah. But I was so in

13:01

it, of course, that I was like, no,

13:03

we're so made. It's like, how can

13:05

you do this? Yeah. And it felt bad

13:07

when I had these, like when I

13:09

was blindsided and dumped, I felt like, oh,

13:11

I took it as a comment on

13:13

my self worth. And I really had to

13:15

like work through what that actually meant

13:17

because I felt so much shame about someone

13:19

got to know me really deeply

13:21

for the first time. And then they

13:23

said, I don't want that. Ultimately, what it

13:26

came down to is that we were just

13:28

working with a match. But when you're in

13:30

it, it does feel awful. And like what

13:32

we were talking about earlier, because we are

13:34

conditioned to want intimacy, but I think we

13:36

get a little shielded from is the message

13:38

that a lot of different types of intimacy

13:41

is important. And I would love to see

13:43

rom -coms, but only about friendships, right? Like,

13:45

you know, deep platonic love is really important

13:47

to our health and happiness, not just the

13:49

marriage, right? And we seem to know that

13:51

when it comes to friendships, we know we

13:53

have all these different types of friends and we

13:55

get different types of intimacy from them. But

13:58

when it comes to romance, we're like. all or

14:00

nothing and it's like oh okay maybe we

14:02

should tip the skills a little differently so

14:04

we can see all the options we have

14:07

because it ultimately will service better. Yeah I mean

14:09

I think that women are so we're so

14:11

socialized to put our value and worth on

14:13

the like acceptance by a romantic partner especially

14:15

if it's a man so even though if

14:18

you think about it logically it's like

14:20

if you were interviewing for a business

14:22

partner or even just friends Of course

14:24

there's a bunch of people you don't get

14:26

along with. Like when you walk into a

14:28

room, eight out of ten people you

14:30

probably don't even want to speak to

14:33

again. But it comes to a relationship

14:35

and we're socialized so we can be

14:37

like, oh no, this is an objective

14:39

arbitration. Yes. This man who I've picked

14:41

because he smells good or seems hot

14:43

or my hormones like Tim is now the

14:46

person in charge of deciding my worth and

14:48

value. Like he is the universal currency, he's

14:50

going to decide, and it is

14:52

like. entirely down to how we

14:54

teach people to think about, like what

14:57

relationships are and what romantic

14:59

relationships are for women. It's like

15:01

so, so deeply embedded. And I

15:03

think one of the things you're touching on

15:05

is like the shame that some people

15:07

feel about being single and how much,

15:10

and I for sure, like, when I used

15:12

to imagine like how we a partner, one

15:14

of the things I imagined a lot,

15:16

was like going to family events. Yeah.

15:18

Right, like my friend group was maybe

15:20

a little more diverse in lifestyles and

15:22

you know but my family it's like

15:24

okay most people are pardoned or not

15:26

I mean if it was politically liberal

15:28

but like fairly traditional in terms

15:30

of like you know most people are in monogamous

15:33

marriages and like yeah that was what I

15:35

would imagine right and that was not because

15:37

that's like first of all it's like 1%

15:39

of my life I spent doing that it's

15:41

not even like it's the most fun thing

15:43

I do but it's the place where my

15:45

shame was activated like my shame was activated

15:48

people. is kind of preventing all

15:50

of us from like really fully

15:52

enjoying our lives. Yeah, totally. What

15:54

I kept realizing in my research

15:57

is that everything came back to

15:59

shame. Not to sound like Renee Brown,

16:01

but um, listen, she's been around for

16:04

a reason. She's right. Yeah, but I

16:06

was like, oh, okay, I want to

16:08

think about like rumination or like managing

16:10

emotions. And what I realized was shame

16:13

prevents you from actually just feeling

16:15

the emotion or just having the neutral

16:17

thought and then processing, which is actually

16:20

the thing that's going to get you

16:22

through that hard time more regulated, right?

16:24

And, you know, I noticed for me.

16:26

the times when like let's say it was

16:29

like a Friday night and I didn't

16:31

have any plans and people were busy

16:33

and I was like down on myself

16:35

like oh like if I had a

16:37

partner we could just like hang out

16:39

at home and it would be easy

16:41

and I feel bad and I was

16:43

like oh I'm putting it's called a

16:45

secondary emotion it's the feeling you have

16:47

about the emotion and for a lot

16:49

of times in this conversation that thing

16:51

is shame. where it's like, oh, I

16:53

feel bad because society is telling me

16:55

to feel bad that I'm alone. And

16:57

I can't help me actually get to

16:59

just like, I just feel sad that

17:01

I don't really have any plans tonight

17:03

and I wish I did, because those

17:06

are two different paths to walk down.

17:08

That's an, you know, an example where

17:10

it's like a one-off, but you know,

17:12

it can build to like, it keeps

17:14

you from not wanting to do the

17:16

types of vacations or travel you want

17:18

to do. I don't want to go

17:20

on that trip because I want to

17:23

go to Italy with a partner. I can't want

17:25

to move to the city because what if there's

17:27

no one to date here? So I got to

17:29

wait until I find a partner. Yeah, exactly.

17:31

A big thing for me was I was

17:33

waiting to get a dog before I had

17:35

a partner and then the pandemic hit and

17:37

I was like, it's looking pretty lonely in

17:39

this apartment. It's time to get a dog.

17:41

And I'm really glad I did because what

17:43

happened once I like... stopped waiting was I

17:45

actually made friends. I made friends with people

17:48

on the street. One of whom became a

17:50

really close friend of mine because our dogs

17:52

met and she was really inspiring because she

17:54

was like, I have like a backyard, you

17:56

know, it's October 2020 and I was like,

17:58

you have a backyard in COVID. and your

18:00

friend I could have in my

18:02

neighborhood, great, yeah, exactly. So I

18:05

was like, oh, I'm so glad

18:07

I didn't wait even longer because,

18:09

oh, it actually ended up positioning

18:12

me to open up for connection.

18:14

Yeah, so it's a lot of

18:16

waiting that, you know, prevents you

18:18

from doing the pressure come down

18:20

when it comes to dating. So

18:22

if you are someone. who is open

18:24

to doing this type of work, but then

18:27

you also are still hoping or would like

18:29

a partner, it is tough, I know, to

18:31

kind of weigh those scales. What I had

18:33

to do was... remind myself, okay, if the

18:36

shame can come down, I can be the

18:38

person in control in a dating situation that

18:40

it's not that, okay, you know, let people

18:43

dump you, it happens, like you're not always

18:45

controlled, but like, you can be a more

18:47

active participant in thinking, do I actually like

18:49

this person rather than being so word, do

18:52

they like me, right? You know, thinking about

18:54

how you feel in your own body

18:56

around someone, rather than just hoping... they

18:58

like you. That really helped me. And

19:00

then also thinking too, because then when

19:02

you're, you know, not hanging every text

19:04

interaction with the Chad, that might lead

19:06

you on red, as part of your

19:08

like, you know, your soul worth, you

19:10

feel like, okay, these people might come

19:12

and go because I've already built this

19:15

other great life and great stability and

19:17

I could have a future where I

19:19

have, you know, a partner, I might

19:21

meet them. 10 years from now, who

19:23

knows, five years next week, and that

19:25

could be beautiful, or I could also

19:27

have a life where I'm mostly on my

19:30

own, but still have a rich life

19:32

full of connections. And so it's not

19:34

a do or die situation when you learn

19:36

to kind of like wash away the shame.

19:38

Here's a thing about me. I own

19:40

multiple copies of the books that

19:43

have been the most important to me.

19:45

especially when they are self-help books or books

19:47

that I'm trying to learn something from. Because

19:49

I like to read the hard copy of

19:51

the book, but then I like to listen

19:53

to the audiobook as well, because I pick

19:56

up on different things when I listen than

19:58

when I read with my eyes. And... I

20:00

hear things differently, my brain processes the

20:02

information differently, and audio books are something

20:04

I can listen to on the road,

20:06

doing things around the house. even in

20:08

a bathtub. So that's why I'm so

20:10

excited to tell you that the Take

20:12

Back Your Brain audio book is available

20:15

now wherever audio books are sold and

20:17

it is narrated by yours truly. So

20:19

even if you've already gotten the book

20:21

in hard cover, if you really want

20:23

to make sure that it all sinks

20:25

in, especially if you have a little

20:27

trouble focusing or paying attention sometimes as

20:29

we all do these days, really recommend

20:31

that you also get the audio book,

20:33

listen to it in the background, your

20:35

brain will actually learn biasmosis, and it

20:37

will. all sink in and stay in

20:39

even better. We imagine, as you were

20:41

saying, that like when we get to

20:44

the relationship where we get married,

20:46

whatever it is, now we're in

20:48

this like other universe. Like we've

20:50

somehow moved over into another strand

20:52

of the multiverse and we are like

20:54

in a full other version of being. But

20:56

what happens is like I see this in coaching

20:58

all the time, your brain just goes

21:00

with you. So if you managed to

21:03

get married while living through dating,

21:05

dating, anxiety and stress, which some

21:07

people do. You then just start to

21:09

stress out about whether your partner

21:11

is mad or you are going to

21:13

leave you or what's going to happen.

21:16

Like, it just comes with you,

21:18

right? It doesn't dissolve. And I

21:20

coach so many women who are

21:22

getting divorced and like that, maybe

21:24

it's quieted while they're married,

21:27

now it's right back up. Like

21:29

those thoughts are right back there, right?

21:31

And so for me, it was like, I

21:33

had to do the work to be

21:35

happy in my single life. No, like,

21:37

yeah. Something happened to him. Obviously, it

21:39

would be terrible in the grieving sense, but

21:41

I know that, like, I think of myself

21:43

as I'm in my own life and I

21:46

am the, like, main character in my own

21:48

life and my relationship with myself has really

21:50

nothing to do with the circumstance of whether

21:52

I'm in a relationship or not or

21:54

I'm married or I'm single. And like,

21:56

women are so socialized that we are

21:59

not the main character. characters are romantic

22:01

status and we are like a sidekick at

22:03

best to like that so then our whole relationship

22:05

with ourselves and our whole concept

22:07

of our lives depends or revolves

22:09

around what is our romantic status

22:11

and I think that is like the deep mind-fuck

22:14

of the social disease right oh

22:16

completely and it leads to what you're

22:18

describing where you're in a relationship

22:20

like okay if I can just keep quiet and

22:22

fake it for long enough I can get married

22:24

and then my prize will be being married

22:26

to someone like faking it for the

22:28

rest of your life. When you're in

22:31

it, that's invological. Yes. The point is

22:33

to get validation and feel okay by getting

22:35

married. And so like whatever I got

22:37

to do to get there, which of

22:39

course is a Pyrrhic victory because you

22:41

don't feel okay, because the person who

22:43

got validation is the fake version of you

22:45

you you've been pretending to be. Exactly. Yeah.

22:48

I know it's so true. And like what

22:50

you said earlier too about it feels like.

22:52

coupled them, you might be like

22:54

transported to a different like multiverse, right?

22:56

I would love for couples to also

22:58

read this book because I think there's

23:00

a lot of lessons about what your

23:03

single friends are going through and how

23:05

you can be better to them and

23:07

how you can also retain like personhood

23:09

in your own relationship because I think

23:11

when we take down the pressure and

23:13

the shame about what it means to

23:15

be single, if we just see that

23:17

as just like a state someone happens

23:19

to be in. or a deliberate choice

23:21

for some people, it benefits everybody because

23:23

I think that when you hear a

23:25

lot of comments from married people about

23:27

like, oh, I couldn't date the, you

23:30

know, now, like I wouldn't know how

23:32

to do it, like all these kind

23:34

of like condescending things, I think that

23:36

comes from a place of I am

23:38

so scared that if I was ever

23:40

single again, I wouldn't know what to

23:42

do, right? Like, so it's like, if

23:45

we make singles so horrible looking to

23:47

everybody, then... people stay in relationships they

23:49

don't want to. They alienate friends, right?

23:51

And then friends then don't feel like

23:54

they're getting support from people. So I

23:56

feel like just recognizing all this different

23:58

type of relationships. love that you can

24:00

get and how we can you know work together

24:03

on this also to kind of take down the

24:05

shame it just benefits everybody. 100% I talked a

24:07

lot about like I went through a real grieving

24:09

process of like grieving being single when

24:12

I got married and I when I partnered

24:14

up which I don't feel like people

24:16

talk about because women are not socialized

24:18

to value autonomy or socialized to value

24:20

like service and interdependency interdependency

24:23

or codependency and for

24:25

me it was like very Not that much

24:27

actual intimacy is happening, right? Yeah.

24:29

It's like, well, it brought up. I

24:32

mean, that's the other thing. It's like,

24:34

you imagine it's going to be all

24:36

happy. Actually, if you're really doing the

24:38

work and having a real relationship,

24:40

it brings up all of your shit, and

24:42

then you have to, like, work through a whole

24:45

bunch of stuff that you were able to

24:47

ignore when you are emotionally

24:49

unavailable, you're not actually, not

24:51

that much actual intimacy is

24:53

happening, right? Yeah. Be vulnerable.

24:56

you can't really see the other

24:58

person as a person, they're mostly

25:00

an arbiter of your self-worth and

25:02

like the barometer you're using that

25:04

day to see if you're okay or not. So

25:06

I think, I mean, one of the things I

25:08

end up cushing a lot on is women

25:10

who think that they are super

25:13

emotionally available and all these men

25:15

are just emotionally unavailable, but like

25:17

they're not really available because

25:19

it's all focused on themselves and

25:21

their own worth and value and

25:24

how dating is reflecting. what probably

25:26

came up for you was like,

25:28

oh, that chapter of my life is

25:30

now officially over, and I didn't

25:33

maybe get to savor it as

25:35

much as I wanted to potentially,

25:37

or like, you just can't go

25:39

back, right? Or like, when I can't

25:41

go back, but like, it is a

25:43

demarcation, right? And it's like, oh, I

25:46

didn't even realize that I... was in

25:48

this really special time in my life

25:50

of singleness until you're out of it

25:52

sometimes, right? I think some, yeah, and

25:54

I think I did feel pretty acutely

25:56

aware of the great parts of being

25:58

single because I've done... work. But I

26:00

think the grief for me was

26:02

about possibilities. That there's an estimate

26:05

about being single, I think is

26:07

like, is that freedom and autonomy

26:09

and possibility of like your life

26:11

can turn out any way still in this

26:13

very significant manner? And then

26:16

for me, I think specifically also

26:18

because I was like location

26:20

independent and my business is

26:22

self-supporting. So I really was like,

26:24

who knows? I could marry a Duke

26:26

of Monaco. I could like be single

26:29

forever. It was like... literally just completely

26:31

open. So there was a grieving process

26:33

of being like, oh, those alternate versions

26:36

of me, right, are not going to

26:38

exist in the same way. But I do

26:40

think a lot of people, yeah, and I

26:42

think that's right, all of it is like

26:44

you, it's like the youth has wasted on

26:46

the young, say, yeah, totally. It's wasting on

26:49

the single who are trying to get here.

26:51

And you still have to do that work,

26:53

like I do that work in my

26:55

relationship now, there are ways in which

26:58

our autonomy, people and relationships have.

27:00

And the resolution of that is not to

27:02

like in mesh, it's just to be like,

27:04

oh, this is still uncomfortable. I'm married

27:06

to this person and I'm still

27:08

uncomfortable with their autonomy and they're

27:11

so uncomfortable with their autonomy and

27:13

they're so uncomfortable with someone my

27:15

autonomy. Not because we're controlling,

27:17

but because that's a tension in healthy

27:19

intimacy, I think, is like allowing an

27:22

amount of autonomy in the other person

27:24

that may trigger your control stuff, but that

27:26

you kind of respect. Yeah, and I think

27:28

that's, you know, it's good to hear because

27:31

when you are, as you know, in the

27:33

trenches of singleness, it is easy to be

27:35

like, well, married people have it all

27:37

figured out, and there is a lot of endless

27:40

privilege that comes with being married, right?

27:42

And... I think single people do have

27:44

the opportunity though like you're saying to

27:46

imagine life in all these wonderful ways

27:48

and like I know it's a popular

27:50

term to like romanticize your own life

27:53

right like it is cool to think

27:55

of all the possibilities that are in

27:57

front of you and that is a huge

27:59

wonderful thing that I think goes ignored

28:01

sometimes for some people. So yeah, it's

28:03

striking to me how many women who get divorced

28:05

are like, oh no, I'd never get married

28:07

again. Like, because a big part of it

28:09

is that validation, it's like done. Now I

28:11

don't want to do that. That's not

28:13

everybody, but like the statistics are pretty

28:16

clear about remarriage rates and about

28:18

single childless women being the

28:20

statistically happiest group in society.

28:22

So I think picking up on that and coming back

28:24

to the thing we always talk about on

28:27

this podcast. Obviously a relationship with

28:29

ourselves is like the longest relationship we're

28:31

ever going to have and usually a

28:33

neglected one. So how do you think

28:35

that we can get better at sort of being

28:37

our own partner through, I mean that's a

28:39

huge question, obviously it's a purpose of the

28:42

whole book in some ways, but what are some

28:44

ways you think people can start, since we

28:46

both love that kind of concrete, like here's a

28:48

thing you can actually do or think, like

28:50

what are some ways people can start, you

28:52

know, paying that attention to themselves that they

28:55

wish a partner would. Yeah, so one big

28:57

thing I talk about in the book

28:59

and I've mentioned here is values, which

29:01

is also an idea that I think

29:03

can... tossed around so and be like,

29:05

what does that actually mean? And so

29:07

I think where values comes in is

29:09

thinking about the difference between a goal

29:11

and a value. And this is something

29:14

I learned from Dr. Puja Lachman, who

29:16

wrote Real Self Care. Yeah, she's been

29:18

on this. Yeah, she's wonderful. And this

29:20

idea that a goal is, it's like

29:22

an outcome, right? It's something you do.

29:24

But the value is how you like

29:26

express it. And so we rarely, she

29:28

says, kind of identify the values underneath

29:30

our values underneath our goals. let's say

29:33

you want a partner, it's like, okay,

29:35

it's kind of asking like, why five

29:37

times? And being like, okay, well, maybe

29:39

it's like, yeah, of course you want

29:41

intimacy, of course you want connection, but

29:44

then it's like, oh, do you see

29:46

how like, these are things that the

29:48

values underneath that, like I value connection,

29:50

I value community, those can be expressed

29:52

more flexibly than just a marriage,

29:55

because the problem with a goal

29:57

is that you're either passing or

29:59

failing automatically. And values are much more

30:01

flexible. So I would say for anyone, get

30:03

really clear about what values you are actually

30:05

expressing now. Like, how does your behavior indicate

30:07

your values? Because sometimes I look at a

30:09

list of values, I'm like, well, technically all

30:11

of them, right? Like, those are all good

30:13

things. you see that? These all seem positive.

30:16

There's this great psychologist at the College of

30:18

William & Mary. And he has this

30:20

great values inventory that you can take on.

30:22

It's like the life values inventory. It's really

30:24

great because it's like, helps you boil down what

30:26

values are you actually paying into right now

30:28

in your life? What are you paying less attention

30:30

to? What do you want to pay more

30:32

attention to? What do you feel more neutral about?

30:34

And it's not like, you know, it's not

30:37

shaming anyway. It's like actually giving you a really

30:39

clear picture about like, what is actually important

30:41

to you right now? And what do you want

30:43

to work on? So I think that's a

30:45

great way to start getting really clear about what's

30:47

important to you, how you can build that

30:49

extra stuff in that maybe takes up some

30:51

space in your head about what a relationship

30:53

you think might do. So it might

30:56

be things like traveling or getting involved in

30:58

your community more, taking up a hobby

31:00

when I feel like single women have the

31:02

most hobbies. It's amazing. Like, you know,

31:04

they know how to do this, but

31:06

like, I'm reminding you all that like,

31:08

that is not for not like filling your

31:10

life fully is very important. And

31:12

so I think that's a big thing.

31:15

And then I would also say

31:17

thinking about how you talk to yourself

31:19

and the story that you tell

31:21

yourself, I think one of the hardest

31:23

parts of just being a human

31:25

is that you really are like locked

31:27

in with your own brain. And

31:30

it is 400 podcast. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

31:32

exactly. And how we talk to

31:34

ourselves really impacts our mood and the

31:36

weather of how we experience everything.

31:38

And I was telling myself a really

31:40

damaging story about how I was the

31:43

rebound girl. Like I was the person

31:45

that someone dated right after a really big,

31:47

you know, supposedly more important relationship. And

31:49

then I helped them get over it and

31:51

then they would move on. And that

31:53

was not very helpful. You have a beautiful

31:55

story, right? You're like, I can tell

31:57

stories. This is the one. Yeah, as a

31:59

journalist, I love. I love theater, I love

32:01

novels and movies, like I know how

32:03

to connect the dots, right, and like

32:05

make a narrative. And sometimes it's not

32:07

about creating a narrative, it's about, okay,

32:10

this is just a thought that I'm experiencing,

32:12

not giving it a lot of weight. And

32:14

I feel like that has been a

32:16

really helpful thing with me, and just

32:18

finding what tools work for you, and

32:20

it's usually a bundle of them, rather

32:23

than one single thing, that helps you

32:25

find ways to talk to yourself better.

32:27

And it's not about just being positive,

32:29

as you know. It's about like kind

32:32

of maybe even like neutralizing the thought

32:34

and seeing reality and then moving forward.

32:36

Like, you know, I love radical acceptance

32:38

where it's like, I don't have to

32:41

like what's happening, but this is what's

32:43

happening. And then being like, okay, what

32:45

can I do now to nourish myself?

32:47

Like I think asking in that question

32:49

a lot, it comes from mindfulness, like

32:52

this idea of like nourishing versus depleting.

32:54

nourishing. I should do that. It'll make

32:56

me feel good rather than just like

32:58

spending like I do, like hours and

33:00

hours being like, why do I feel

33:03

this bad? Why? You know, like asking

33:05

why, why, why? Thinking what can I

33:07

do to like nourish myself? And I

33:09

think that will get people off these paths

33:11

of kind of spiraling and feeling

33:13

better about being your own partner.

33:16

Love that. There's two things you

33:18

said I want to pick up on before

33:20

I ask your last question. So one

33:22

is I love the values, we talk

33:25

about values a lot on the podcast

33:27

in the sense that women are socialized

33:29

to try to live up to certain

33:31

social standards for our value and

33:34

our worth, and a lot of women

33:36

don't even know what their own

33:38

values are if they're asking themselves

33:40

truly, right? And so you all

33:42

have heard, like, just 100% cosine,

33:44

and I used values, actually, for

33:46

me, that was a big part of

33:49

my dating work, was what are my

33:51

values in dating? Because it's just chaotic in

33:53

your brain. It's just kind of like, how did I feel

33:55

today? Did they text back fast enough? And did I make

33:57

that mean something about myself? And that's what you know, like.

34:00

husband who is obsessed with me is

34:02

a terrible texture. And I would

34:04

never have gotten through the first week

34:06

of our relationship without having been able

34:08

to go back to the values because I had

34:10

so many models of like, if somebody

34:12

likes you, this is how they text and this is how they

34:14

do everything the way I do it. If they

34:16

like me, then exactly how I would

34:18

do it. So using values in dating of

34:20

like these are my top three values, whatever

34:22

they are, like curiosity or fun

34:24

or connection or whatever

34:26

actually helps you navigate that process and how you

34:28

relate to yourself and how you're willing to other people.

34:31

The other thing I'll recommend for people, I

34:33

often feel like I have guests come on who are like,

34:36

here's the positive. I'm like, here's a negative option you

34:38

can do not. Yeah,

34:40

it's sort of there's two different

34:42

routes, both of which are important. There's

34:44

focusing your mind on the positive things about your

34:46

current experience and being single. But

34:48

then there's also I think what I'm

34:50

calling the negative, it's not really negative.

34:52

It's like de fantasizing the experience of

34:54

being partner. And so one of the

34:56

things I'd recommend is like, make

34:58

a list of all those things that you want

35:00

experience in partnership, like let's say you want experience

35:02

connection. Awesome. Now think about

35:04

how being with a partner is also going to make you experience

35:06

the opposite. So I would experience connection

35:09

with my husband and then I get to

35:11

experience really devastating disconnection when my brain decides to

35:13

hijack my day and tell me that I can't

35:15

believe he forgot to do this thing and

35:17

therefore he doesn't love me and therefore blah, blah,

35:19

blah. And I don't think that means anything. He

35:21

does love me. I love him. This is having a

35:23

human brain. But we never fantasize about

35:25

that part. So it's all a

35:27

trade off. There's like parts of being

35:29

single and not and sort of having

35:31

that autonomy and having that freedom and

35:33

having all your resources for yourself in

35:36

that way that can be lonely and

35:38

also can be amazing. But

35:40

being partnered is not it's not a consolation price.

35:42

There's really trade offs in both things. And

35:45

so really thinking through like here's all the things

35:47

I want. Like people want to be in a relationship because they

35:49

don't want to feel lonely. Anybody in a

35:51

relationship can tell you the loneliest thing you feel

35:53

is when you have a partner and you feel

35:55

lonely in a relationship, right? Because you

35:57

don't even have the fantasy that like someone else. Right?

36:00

Like that fantasy's gone. Yeah. What's

36:02

the same thing, right? It's like

36:04

de- fetishizing kind of the... Yeah,

36:07

it's just getting real. It's like,

36:09

it's having a more realistic

36:11

picture. I think that's so

36:13

important. Because then you're not,

36:16

yeah, pinning your hopes on

36:18

one thing will solve all

36:20

your problems. Not multiverse. Yeah. Was

36:22

that anything else you wish I'd

36:24

ask you or that you want people

36:26

to know that you didn't get a

36:28

chance to share? this phrase that I

36:31

keep hearing these days is it's always

36:33

your turn and what that means is

36:35

like it's always your turn to reach

36:37

out. I read about this book like

36:39

be the starter is how I phrase

36:41

it because in a time when people

36:43

do feel lonely you know regardless of

36:46

relationship status no one is proud enough

36:48

to be like Why did that person

36:50

invite me to something? Like even if

36:52

you're busy or you can't go, you're

36:54

still like touched and honored that someone

36:57

thought of you. And you can give

36:59

that to someone with an invitation. It

37:01

doesn't have to be to like a

37:04

big fancy dinner or you block off

37:06

something for a whole day three months

37:08

from now or maybe a year from

37:10

now, right? It can be something short

37:12

and sweet. It can be running errands

37:14

with someone. It can be like, Do

37:16

you want to come out and walk

37:18

the dog with me for 20 minutes?

37:20

You know, thinking about all these ways

37:22

you can invite people into your

37:24

life, creates a reciprocal effect, right? Then

37:27

people are more likely to come to

37:29

you and be like, oh, like, you invited

37:31

me this, you should come to this,

37:33

right? It just becomes this beautiful concentric

37:36

circles of connection. And I think that

37:38

understanding that loneliness too, it really is

37:40

this like more, it's a neutral signal

37:43

telling you you need connection. It is

37:45

not something to feel shame about and

37:47

I think understanding that can help you

37:49

get what you need faster and it's

37:51

okay to feel lonely but it is

37:53

a signal saying like hey you need

37:55

to reach out to someone and I

37:57

think that's you know they're very real

38:00

barriers in our society about how

38:02

we live, who we interact with,

38:04

right, that can prevent us from

38:06

feeling more connected than we would

38:08

like to. But there is opportunities

38:10

to find connection and build it

38:12

even in these little spurts. Yeah,

38:14

I love that. It's almost what's coming to

38:16

mind is it's like hunger. Like there's the

38:18

natural, no, then there's all the cultural baggage

38:20

we put on top of like, know, about

38:22

it, like you feel a desire to connect

38:24

natural human need. That's not a natural human

38:26

need to be married and living in with a white

38:28

picket fence. Like that's the social construction on top of

38:30

it. The need can be met with

38:33

any kind of human connection. Yes,

38:35

totally. Yeah, so good. So people can buy

38:37

your book everywhere. They should go

38:39

do that. But is there somewhere in specific you would

38:41

like people to find you, follow you, get the book? Sure,

38:44

yeah. I'm on Instagram. Dane Kane.

38:46

Kane is spelled K -E -A -N -E.

38:48

You can also find the book

38:50

and order it through MeganVeeKane.com, again,

38:52

K -E -A -N -E. And then listen

38:54

to Live Get on NPR anywhere

38:56

you get your podcasts. Amazing.

38:58

Thanks so much for coming on today. Oh, thanks so

39:00

much for having me. Appreciate it. If

39:04

you're loving what you're learning on

39:06

the podcast, you have got to

39:08

come check out the feminist self-help society.

39:10

It's our newly revamped community and classroom

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where you get individual help to better

39:15

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with a library of next level, blow

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39:22

I just can't fit in a podcast

39:24

episode. It's also where you

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can hang out, get coached,

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and nerd out about all

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It's my favorite place on

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Earth and it will change

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39:46

Come join

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www.unfuckyourbrain.com forward

39:55

slash society. I

39:58

can't wait to

40:00

see you there.

40:00

yours truly, Moa, myself, is out now. If

40:02

you love this podcast, the audiobook is the

40:04

best way for you to enjoy this New

40:06

York Times and USA Today bestseller. You can

40:08

still get the hard cover anywhere bucks are

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sold. You can still get the e-book, but

40:13

if you're like me, you love audiobooks just

40:15

as much or more because they're easier to

40:17

enjoy on the go or while you're multitasking.

40:19

And if you already have the hard cover

40:21

and you have been feeling like you just

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want to try to try to try to

40:25

try to absorb everything in it even better,

40:28

even better, Add the audiobook, listen to

40:30

the audiobook as well, it will

40:32

operate on your brain in a whole

40:34

different way. Go grab it on audible

40:36

or wherever else, you get your audiobooks,

40:39

and you have my dulcetones in your

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ears teaching you how to understand your

40:43

brain, it's a win-win.