0:00

Unpacking the Toolbox is a production of Shondaland

0:02

Audio in partnership with Iheartradiots.

0:25

As Katie, I

0:32

feel like we say this every single

0:34

time we do a podcast, but it's it's

0:37

true, Like sincerely this episode, Like

0:39

I was sobbing last night watching you were.

0:42

Yeah, Like I watched it twice and

0:44

real times I was sobbing.

0:47

Wait, I'm trying to remember. I watched it last night too,

0:49

and now I'm like, guys, when

0:51

you're old and you fall asleep,

0:53

I can't remember what I did last night, and I

0:55

was sober. I watched it completely sober.

0:58

We always had a TV in our train at Scandals,

1:00

right, mm hm? I never turned

1:03

mine on, Gimi Camber never,

1:06

and you are such a like you need

1:08

to have something in the background. I feel like, so

1:11

you had always I Love Lucy one

1:14

or maybe like twilight Zone? Am

1:17

I making that up?

1:17

No, you're right, that's exactly right. I would watch

1:20

Twilight Zone, I would watch I Love Lucy, I

1:22

would watch horror films. I'd bring DVDs,

1:24

remember DVDs

1:27

and CDs.

1:28

The other thing that must be noted about your trailer,

1:31

which was so cool. Not

1:33

only did you always have twilight

1:35

Zone or I love Lucy

1:38

On. But you always had like a fucking cool

1:40

ass lamp with like a

1:43

blanket over it or something, so it was very lighty.

1:46

Didn't you remember that? Yes?

1:48

So your trailer always had like amazing

1:51

sort of mood lighting, Like, regardless

1:54

of the day, it was very Giermo, are you affected

1:56

by light? Are you like a light person?

1:58

Are you like it needs to be dim?

2:00

Yeah, it needs to be dim. It needs to be like a sort

2:03

of an amber tone, like a reddish

2:05

tone.

2:06

God, you must have walked into them, because

2:08

the makeup trailer couldn't be Oh

2:10

god, you're polar opposite of that. I mean, when

2:12

you walk into a fucking hair and makeup trailer, it is

2:14

like landing on the sun at

2:16

an airport.

2:17

Yeah.

2:18

I mean it's supposed to be all this great mirror

2:20

lighting so that they can really do a good job doing

2:23

your makeup. But I always felt like the lighting was so

2:25

aggressive.

2:26

It's so aggressive, so hostile. So

2:28

wait, what did you do last night?

2:30

Okay? Last night was

2:32

one of these insanely stupid

2:35

and annoying but also kind of fun mom

2:37

situations where we had a four pm birthday

2:40

party at Skyzone trampoline

2:42

part shit, And I took both

2:44

my kids by myself to an indoor trampoline

2:46

park where you're just bouncing

2:49

and peeing everywhere because I've had two children.

2:51

Wait, did you get in the trampoline as well?

2:55

Oh?

2:55

Hell yeah, I fucking jump all over

2:57

that shit. I'm like, let's go. I put

2:59

on an extra special bra for it so

3:01

that I wasn't scaring the peoples,

3:04

and then I only pete a little

3:06

bit, which was a huge win because I used

3:08

to do once you've had two children, all of you

3:11

mommy gladiators who are out there listening two

3:14

vaginal birds means that.

3:16

They're like it's hard to control.

3:18

Yes, that there's there's been some blowouts

3:20

that have happened down there, and

3:25

you better be working them keygels and all that

3:27

to hold in the pps. But it was

3:30

lovely and the kids had the best time ever. And you know what was

3:32

cute. The girl whose birthday it was

3:34

is seven, and she's

3:36

a tough little cookie, like she likes

3:38

to battle and fight and she does Pokemon

3:40

battles with my son. They're like Archie is v

3:43

Star blast in your face like and they're

3:45

just like crazy battling and Albi

3:48

said to me on the way home, Mommy, I

3:50

think I know who I want to marry, which, like, where

3:53

does he get this shit? Like, I don't talk to

3:55

him about marriage. This must be in fucking

3:57

Disney movies or some shit. But he's just like, I

4:01

want to marry Charlie. She's so

4:03

cute and so beautiful and

4:06

she's seven and she's tough as fucking nails.

4:08

But I'm not so convinced that Charlie

4:11

will like boys. I don't know. Yeah,

4:14

we've already discovered that my son

4:17

he likes the ladies. Yeah, And it's

4:19

funny when

4:22

women are running by in sports bras.

4:25

Is he like, uh do his eyes

4:27

pop out like in the cartoons? Oh?

4:28

Yeah, He's like, Mommy, mommy, what's that?

4:30

Like?

4:30

Why don't they have clothes on? Like, mommy, what are

4:32

they wearing?

4:33

Like?

4:33

What is that?

4:33

Like?

4:33

He's into it, and I'm like

4:35

one time we were at a wine tasting and there was like a

4:38

very like a woman there wearing a

4:40

very risque thing. She

4:42

was hot a shit, and she had long blonde hair.

4:45

And my son was like, I'd like to go play with her.

4:47

Oh no, he didn't.

4:49

Oh yeah, And I'm like, fucking

4:52

shit, he's totally straight.

4:53

I love him.

4:55

I mean, did you know that you

4:57

loved the little I mean when did you know?

4:59

Yeah, Katie Will that's I was going to say earlier

5:01

I was in kindergarten. I remember

5:03

being in kindergarten even before that and being

5:05

like attracted to other little boys,

5:07

like you know, like whatever age a

5:10

straight person knew, like whatever age you were,

5:12

if it was, you know, five or seven, that's the

5:14

same thing for a gay person. You know what I

5:16

mean.

5:17

And you can see it, like I mean, obviously

5:19

he's already making comments like I want to

5:21

marry this girl, so he doesn't understand

5:23

like, oh, I'm having like feelings

5:26

feeling, but

5:28

he one hundred percent

5:31

is this episode, we may

5:34

or may not have an incredible guest

5:37

and this person little

5:39

tidbit fun fact I've worked with twice.

5:42

Oh, I was going to ask you about that because I found

5:44

that when I did my research.

5:45

She's fucking unbelievable

5:48

and she may or may not be part of our

5:52

scandal body count unfortunately.

5:55

Rip. Yeah,

5:57

and she's got one of the fucking coolest

6:00

voices I have ever heard.

6:03

Yes, it just rumbles.

6:05

Yeah, I love it. It's so good, it's

6:07

so powerful.

6:08

We're gonna have to ask this person.

6:11

Is it because they smoked

6:13

a lot as.

6:14

A young man or is that just

6:16

the way it's always been? Yeah, I don't

6:18

know, who knows. I've always been jealous of

6:21

raspy voices like that, me too,

6:23

Like special voices like Daphanie Rubin Vega

6:25

has a very specific, like special.

6:28

Voice ability to just

6:30

really grumble. Well, this actress

6:32

has it ten millionfold.

6:36

She is so like but

6:38

she's like I boughta and

6:41

I this episode she absolutely

6:43

kills And she was part of the Scandal family.

6:46

Was she in season one too?

6:48

Whenever we see the like Mellie and

6:50

Olivia, the Goons, the Goons,

6:52

Yeah, plant doing the whole cytron hardly.

6:55

Wing rigging, but we're

6:57

talking about the one, the

7:00

only Yeah,

7:06

we got her in

7:08

the toolbox.

7:09

Deborah Mooney has been in a lot

7:11

of iconic shows

7:14

and movies like yes,

7:16

I mean, you can't even imagine. She was in a movie,

7:19

one of my favorite movies called Tutsie. Do

7:21

you remember the Tootsie with Dustin Hoffman?

7:23

Hoffman a fucking classic? Who

7:26

did she play in Tutsi?

7:27

Is?

7:27

She played a character named missus Mallory.

7:30

You have to go back and watch it. It's it's Dustin

7:32

Hoffman is brilliant in that film. I mean, Terry

7:35

Garr. Deborah Mooney is in it. And she

7:37

was also in Dead Poet Society with Robin

7:39

williamses.

7:42

No, and we need to ask her about it. Also,

7:44

Deborah Mooney so fucking

7:48

pretty.

7:49

Yeah, she's beautiful.

7:50

Yeah, I can't even when she dies ri

7:52

ip Verna, she is

7:54

laying back in her casket.

7:57

I was like, my gorgeous.

7:59

Yeah, this woman is fucking gorgeous,

8:01

her hair, her eye color. And

8:03

then she's got that rumbly ass

8:07

voice. Deborah

8:10

Mooney.

8:12

You guys, I Verna.

8:15

That voice, that face, our

8:18

one and only.

8:19

Verna Thornton, Verna

8:21

Thornton.

8:22

And we have just gotten to the episode

8:24

where Verna, so sadly

8:27

and so horrifically is

8:29

murdered by the hands of the president

8:32

himself.

8:32

Oh with a thought.

8:34

I mean really, yes.

8:37

Verna, can you take us through? Do

8:40

you remember how you got the part?

8:42

No? I think they just called me and that's

8:45

me by.

8:46

So it was just a straight offer.

8:48

Yeah, I believe so well.

8:50

I mean, Deborah, you've done like a

8:52

million and ten things.

8:55

You were in Seinfeld, you were in you did

8:57

an episode of Ellen, you were in Domestic disturb

9:00

Vince Will and Grace, Anastasia Touched by

9:02

an Angel? Like, I could go on

9:04

and on and on.

9:06

I know.

9:06

Did you always want to be an actor?

9:09

Yeah? I think so. Isn't

9:11

it funny? I mean I grew up in a teen ninety

9:13

town in North Dakota.

9:17

I am the only one that

9:19

became an actor.

9:22

How did you get the idea?

9:23

Like?

9:23

Were you acting as a little kid?

9:25

That's what I wonder sometimes because

9:27

as a little kid, I mean I

9:30

used to perform for the neighbors.

9:33

They had an entrance to their living

9:35

room was a double door, you know, so

9:38

that was my stage and they all sat on the

9:40

couch and I held the dog and

9:42

saying how much is that doggie in the window?

9:46

Oh?

9:48

Funny?

9:49

And they loved it.

9:51

Did your parents always encourage you to continue

9:53

like performing?

9:54

No? No, I don't think they thought I was going to be an actress

9:57

at all. Really, No, that was

9:59

just something you know, Oh my

10:01

god, sounds like you've got a air ball.

10:03

Sorry, wouldn't you know?

10:05

Oh, we'll take the cat with the hairball. We love

10:07

real life stuff. Deborah Moody, How did

10:10

you find yourself in Los Angeles?

10:12

Or did you?

10:13

I came out here to see my daughter. I

10:15

was acting in New York. I went

10:17

to the University of Minnesota and

10:20

got an MFA in acting.

10:23

And my mentor there

10:26

was Charles Nolty. He directed a production

10:28

of Streetcar, and Tennessee came

10:30

to see it.

10:32

What were you in this production,

10:34

Debora? You were in the production?

10:36

I was Blanche. Oh my god, I've

10:38

been playing Blanche. Tennessee came

10:40

to see it and decided I was

10:43

his favorite Blanche to walk?

10:45

Are you kidding me? Oh my

10:47

god?

10:47

I am Did you never hear that story?

10:50

I never told you even No.

10:53

I am obsessed with street Car name desire,

10:55

and so he.

10:56

Wrote about me in the New York Times.

10:58

You can look up Wow. I think if you

11:00

google Deborah Mooney Tennessee

11:02

Williams in New York Times,

11:04

it will come up.

11:05

I'm gonna do that.

11:07

Oh, Michael, I have the

11:09

article right now. We're going to need to link

11:11

to it when this episode comes out.

11:14

March fourth, nineteen seventy three.

11:16

Well, we don't need to say that, do we.

11:21

I mean, this is unbelievable.

11:23

This is so what an iconic

11:26

role.

11:28

Stella a star like.

11:30

Star god.

11:32

I can't what I would have paid to see

11:34

you do that part, I'm sure. I'm

11:36

just so impressed at the longevity

11:39

of the life of an actor, you know, when

11:41

you when we get to be around somebody

11:44

who has worked in

11:47

theater, television, film

11:49

for decades, and a lot of people

11:51

don't get that, like a lot of you. I

11:53

know, it does,

11:56

sadly for whatever reason, either

11:59

dry up or they make a different choice

12:01

or whatever it is. But it's

12:03

so impressive. How did you

12:06

come into the Shondaland family?

12:09

Was your first Well?

12:10

I think Shonda must have liked

12:13

ever would because so many of us

12:15

have been called.

12:17

Yeah, it's Tom Amandy's right,

12:19

Tom Amandy's who plays Governor rest

12:22

in April. Sarah

12:24

Drew was a lead doctor on his

12:26

An Enemy for years.

12:28

Yeah. I think if Shonda says

12:30

that's what I want.

12:31

I think, Yeah, that's what I think.

12:33

They just call you. I don't think, yeah,

12:35

you audition.

12:37

You are just a marvel in this

12:39

role. And it's such a you know, we've been watching

12:41

all these episodes back Katie and I to do this podcast,

12:44

and it's just it's such a pleasure

12:46

watching you work. It is so entertaining

12:49

and so satisfying. You're so remarkable

12:52

in this role. You're just so so good,

12:54

Deborah so good. Oh did

12:56

you know when you got the role

12:58

that it was going to be an arc?

13:01

No, I did not know that. I

13:03

didn't have any idea what it was going to

13:05

be.

13:06

You know, we'll be right back. Guys.

13:12

How do you have the most I want

13:14

to know, iconic voice?

13:17

Were you always raspy or

13:19

is it from just years of theater and

13:22

smoking at the equity breaks?

13:25

I was saying tenor in high school?

13:27

So you've always had a low voice.

13:30

I've always had a low voice. Yeah.

13:32

In the choir, it was I was in the

13:34

tenor section, you know, I

13:36

got to be with the boys.

13:37

Yeah.

13:40

And I've been lucky enough to work with you twice

13:42

because you also played the judge

13:45

in Inventing Anna correct

13:48

And I was so grateful to you

13:50

because in Rachel Deloche Williams

13:52

scenes that we got to do, which was the week

13:54

before shutdown in twenty twenty,

13:57

that's right, I had to be on

13:59

the stand on crying and crying

14:02

and crying and crying,

14:04

and I just had, like Deborah Mooney

14:07

right to my left with her gavel

14:09

and her judge's gown, just

14:12

holding down the court.

14:14

But my god, Shonda, and rightfully so.

14:16

I mean, she loves you. You are

14:19

a staple in the Shondaland family.

14:22

Well, I love working for

14:24

her and with her. I think she

14:26

is so remarkable. I think of

14:28

her all the time, and I think how

14:31

many people she gives

14:34

work to A lot.

14:37

She's amazing.

14:38

Yeah, And she's super loyal to the people that she's

14:40

worked with, and she you know, respects their work

14:42

and their work ethic, and she brings them back,

14:45

she keeps them in her in her world, in her circle.

14:48

My late husband was a

14:50

producer of theater of the spoken word,

14:53

and what he loved was companies,

14:55

building a company. And

14:57

so to me, Shonda

15:00

was a perfect, perfect

15:02

follow up what I'd been in with circle

15:04

rep and having a company.

15:07

You know, Yeah, did it

15:09

feel so like theater to you when you came

15:11

on the set of Scandal you knew the scandal

15:13

pace and having to be word perfect

15:16

and say things very fast? Did

15:18

it feel like all of your theater training

15:21

you called upon that a lot.

15:23

I guess, I mean it just seemed that's that's

15:26

the style of this show. That's what we do. You

15:28

know, Yeah, you have to be careful

15:30

you're not playing the style

15:33

rather than the show. Do you know what I'm saying. If

15:35

you're doing a farce, you're still

15:38

that character and you still

15:40

want to play the role, not the farce.

15:43

Do you know what I'm saying? Right right? The

15:45

character is what's important totally.

15:48

How did it feel when you found out

15:51

as scripts kept coming, were

15:54

you so like, oh my god,

15:56

this is what I'm doing, Like we rigged an

15:58

election, I'm nominated to the Supreme Court?

16:01

Were you just flabbergasted

16:03

at your storyline?

16:05

There was an episode in

16:07

her office, in her boardroom.

16:11

I kind of thought, whoa, I

16:13

think maybe I have something to do with all

16:15

this, you know, maybe

16:17

I'm maybe I'm the

16:19

one.

16:20

You know, you started to think, oh

16:23

shit, is Verna the person

16:25

who who is

16:28

responsible for hiring

16:30

Becky to assassinate the president?

16:32

Yes? Yes, Verna

16:36

really so juicy?

16:39

How did they fit your glorious

16:41

hair underneath

16:44

the bald cap and

16:46

get it to look so good.

16:50

The first time? It took six hours?

16:52

What? Oh yeah,

16:54

I.

16:55

Went there at like three years

16:57

in the morning. What they

16:59

got it down to like four?

17:02

Did that help you get into character even

17:04

more Debora being having that

17:07

bald head and just everything that she was

17:09

going through and having your you had your oxygen

17:11

mask and the tubes, like I'm sure

17:13

all of that sort of helped.

17:15

Yeah, it certainly made me feel

17:17

kind of frail. Do you know what I mean?

17:20

Mm hm, I mean watching you

17:22

take breaths from that oxygen mask.

17:24

It's just it's heartbreaking. In this particular

17:26

episode that we're talking about.

17:27

Today, vice versa. The other

17:30

side of Verna Thornton too, I mean, I

17:32

love that we're watching a woman who is

17:35

deteriorating in front of our

17:38

very eyes. You have a very terminal

17:40

illness that is taking over quick

17:42

you know. We see the flashbacks to the scenes

17:45

where you tell your doctor,

17:47

I I'm being put on the bench tomorrow

17:49

and how long do I have and he says a year,

17:51

maybe two, And we watch

17:54

this all happen so quickly. But the other

17:56

side of it is how

17:58

amazing Verna Thornton

18:01

looked in all of her suits and

18:03

your hair all blown out, when you're like

18:05

sitting at the table in Air Force one

18:08

and you all are making the decision

18:10

to rig the election, You and Hollis

18:12

and Mellie and Olivia, how

18:15

powerful she was and how

18:18

like strong, I'm ready to do a deal

18:20

with the devil to get my seat. You

18:22

know that that was the most important thing

18:24

for your career to culminate

18:26

into a Supreme Court justice.

18:29

I just loved playing Erna Thornton,

18:32

I really did. I was so

18:34

sorry when she got when she was gonna

18:36

get killed off because that, Yeah, I

18:39

just hated the loser. But it was quite

18:41

spectacular depth too, so.

18:44

It was a great death and a great run.

18:45

Do you remember all of us hanging out at Jeff

18:48

Perry and Linda Lowe's house watched.

18:51

I went to one of them and then I thought, I

18:53

don't think I can watch that with other people.

18:56

I think I better watch it.

18:57

Yeah, yeah, I remember the one that you

18:59

were. We had such a great time, but I

19:01

remember you and all of us being so

19:04

sad and so emotional that you were

19:06

going to be you know that your character was

19:08

being killed off in the in the next episode.

19:10

Do you remember that? And we were all like, yeah,

19:12

but it was such a wonderful like gathering.

19:15

We all got to spend time together and it

19:17

was just.

19:17

Like, yeah, it wasn't it wasn't it?

19:19

Yeah.

19:20

Oh, it was just it was such a pleasant group

19:22

of people to be with, wasn't it.

19:25

It was a great troop. It

19:27

was a great real lot

19:29

of theater actors.

19:31

Yeah.

19:31

Well, and it was a kind of special time.

19:34

I thought it was a special time in the second

19:36

season because I

19:38

was new to it the second season, but

19:41

the other people that had been working together

19:43

were beginning to know each other, and

19:45

there were those of us that were coming in for the first

19:48

time in this season, and

19:50

so it was still biting

19:52

its way, and yet there was enough

19:54

of having known each other that

19:57

there was this solidity about

19:59

it.

20:00

Mm hmm.

20:01

I just think it's a real special time when

20:03

you get to do not the first

20:05

maybe, but early on in

20:07

the theory.

20:08

Yes, and the show was getting successful

20:10

like the second Yeah, like you.

20:12

Said, it was, it was a very exciting

20:14

time.

20:15

I thought it was.

20:16

Yeah, it totally was.

20:18

Had you watched the show before you were

20:20

casting it?

20:21

No, I hadn't seen it. I don't watch

20:23

a lot of television. I was busy

20:26

doing it, you know what I mean?

20:27

Yeah, exactly working.

20:29

Because that was a real busy time.

20:31

I think sometimes when I've done TV shows

20:33

that I haven't watched my work is better

20:36

because if I've seen the show, then I get

20:38

sort of, you know.

20:39

An idea of what it's supposed to be.

20:41

Yeah, especially if I like the If

20:43

I end up loving the show, then I have this I

20:45

put this pressure on myself, so I

20:48

like when I haven't seen it, and then I, you

20:50

know, jump in and do my work and do my best.

20:52

Yeah. Yeah. And like part

20:54

of a response to your question about getting

20:56

into the speed and everything like that, I wasn't

20:59

worried about intimidated

21:01

or anything because I

21:04

didn't know that that's what happened.

21:06

Right right, you were just paced up already.

21:09

Oh I'm gonna have to be real FASTO. Yeah,

21:12

I didn't know.

21:16

We are so lucky to have Verna Thornton,

21:18

the one and only Deberny. On today's

21:21

episode, we are talking about episode

21:23

two thirteen, which was called

21:25

Nobody Likes Babies, and

21:28

it aired on February seventh

21:30

of twenty thirteen, and.

21:32

It was written by Mark Wilding and

21:34

directed by the Tom

21:36

Verica.

21:37

Oh my goodness, I had no idea Tom Verica

21:40

directed this episode. It is guest starring

21:42

Deborah Mooney as Verna Thornton, Susan

21:44

poorfar as Becky Flynn. Dan Mugatinski

21:47

is James Novak, George Newburn is Charlie,

21:49

Greg Henry is Hollis Doyle.

21:51

Norm Lewis is Senator Edison Davis,

21:53

Brenda Song as Alyssa, Sam McMurray

21:56

as a US attorney, Pat Wexler Samantha

21:59

Sloy and his Janie, and Colin Douglas

22:01

as Steve Dougherty.

22:02

And just to jog you all about what happens. And then

22:05

we got to talk to our very own Verna Thornton

22:07

before she leaves the show

22:10

about her epic epic death and

22:12

destruction and how she does gone

22:15

crazy on this plot line. Synopsis

22:17

for this episode. When the truth comes

22:19

out that Verna was the one who hired Becky, Olivia,

22:22

still reeling from the betrayal, rallies the team

22:24

to steal David Rosen's evidence in the looming

22:26

defiance case.

22:27

The pressures on is Verna dies suddenly and

22:29

James is subpoena to appear in court. In

22:32

two last ditch efforts, Abby professes

22:34

her love to David, and Cyrus considers

22:36

having James murdered before he can testify.

22:38

Fortunately, James lies on the stand

22:41

and Abby manages to steal the defiance evidence,

22:43

even if it costs her the relationship with

22:45

David.

22:46

Then, during Verna's funeral, Fits

22:48

ices out Olivia as we learn what really happened

22:50

in the hospital, Verna confessed about

22:52

defiance and Fitz killed her to

22:55

prevent her from going public. This

22:59

episode is so freaking

23:02

epic.

23:03

It's beyond the

23:06

fact that the that we see fits

23:09

the president kill another character

23:11

on the show was just mind blowing.

23:14

It's one of the first times that I thought, Okay, this show,

23:16

it's a whole thing on its own, Like it's it

23:19

takes risk, and Seana is not afraid

23:21

to go there. Like I was completely

23:23

floored when this happened, Like when I read this.

23:26

Right, Deborah, do you remember

23:29

shooting the scenes

23:31

in this episode that you had when you

23:33

are your character has called

23:35

in David Rosen to

23:38

tell him that the election was rigged,

23:41

But first your character calls

23:43

in the president because you said you

23:45

wanted him to hear it from Verna

23:47

first, Right, What

23:50

the hell was that like?

23:52

To shoot?

23:53

Well, it was pretty incredible.

23:55

I mean it all felt very

23:58

real that she would have the ancience

24:01

way on her and would decide to come

24:03

clean, and that she would

24:06

let him. Know first, it makes

24:08

sense to me.

24:09

How is it working with Tony Goldwyn? Was

24:11

that a thrill?

24:12

I loved it? I just loved Tony. I mean,

24:14

oh, can you believe me? Up and kills

24:16

me?

24:17

I mean, and he holds your

24:19

arms down. It's so awful.

24:23

I helpe get him elected.

24:25

I mean, come, yes, yes,

24:28

ingrate, ingrate, Yeah, but then you did

24:30

try to get him assassinated?

24:31

Is that? Well? You

24:34

know?

24:35

This episode is so full. I mean,

24:37

besides the incredible Verna

24:39

stuff, this episode also

24:42

has in it this huge epic.

24:44

One of my favorite all time scandal scenes

24:46

of all time is

24:48

a scene between Dan Bugatinski

24:51

and Jeff Perry and

24:54

they both have this huge argument

24:56

where James is asking Cyrus,

24:58

did you rig the election? I've been subpoena

25:00

and I'm supposed to testify and I need

25:02

to know did you or didn't you? And Cyrus

25:04

says, take off all your clothes? How

25:07

am I supposed to know? If you don't, if you're not

25:09

bugged, if you don't have a MIC on you.

25:11

Which Katie you noticed. He says, take

25:13

off your clothes, which is a throwback to when

25:15

Fitz says to Olivia, take off your clothes,

25:17

but obviously this is a completely different context,

25:20

and.

25:20

So James takes off all of his clothes

25:23

and then he says, you take off your clothes

25:25

like I don't know if you're miked, And so they have

25:27

this epically long, five

25:30

minute, twelve page one

25:32

act that they're

25:35

both naked, where

25:37

Cyrus admits and says, I

25:39

was never going to be president. I'm not pretty

25:42

enough, I like boys, I'm sure, and

25:44

I don't have the right things

25:46

to make up of a president. But this is the closest

25:48

I was ever going to get that I could be the

25:51

second best, that I would be able to sway

25:54

some things in the White House, that I would

25:56

be the chief of staff. And so I did.

25:58

I stole the election. It's

26:01

an amazing scene

26:04

and so beautifully acted

26:06

by both actors and

26:08

one of my all time favorite

26:11

favorite favorite acting scenes.

26:13

Oh same, another super

26:15

super like epic scenes was a scene where

26:17

that you have with Olivia with Kerrie Washington,

26:20

Deborah, how was it? How was it working with Carrie?

26:22

Had you met Carrie before?

26:24

No? I just loved her.

26:26

Oh, you two had a chemistry

26:28

and the relationship between Olivia.

26:31

Did did I did?

26:33

I really just adored her?

26:36

From the time I met her. She's some the

26:38

beautiful woman you know.

26:40

Yes, but the history, you

26:42

too, created this incredible history.

26:44

It was effortless.

26:45

It seemed like you two had

26:48

been in each other's corners for a long

26:50

time. Yeah, the hell out of

26:52

each other for a long time. Like even in the beginning

26:55

of this season, no one else knows

26:57

that Vernon Thornton's sick, and

27:00

Pope is the only one that comes and like sits

27:02

with you in the hospital while you're getting your chemo

27:05

treatment, and she turns off her phone,

27:07

which she never does. And

27:10

there are so many times where Verna gives

27:12

Olivia Pope advice about

27:16

like that she listened to you,

27:18

Olivia listened to you.

27:20

But this scene, in this scene in particular, when she

27:22

goes to confront you about because

27:24

she figures out with Opa that you have paid

27:27

Becky to assassinate the president,

27:30

that scene is just so powerful. But then we

27:32

also learned that Verna

27:34

was doing it ultimately for the good of the

27:36

country, do you know what I mean? She's

27:38

like, well, if I killed him, then

27:40

the country will then re

27:43

elect a president that will will

27:45

be rightly you know, elected, just

27:48

exactly. So of course she

27:50

decided to kill the president, but she was doing it

27:52

for the good of the country. Such a

27:54

powerful scene. And when Olivia's hearing you say

27:56

those things, and at the end you say something to

27:58

her, you say, chin up, Olivia. It's not like

28:00

I'm getting away with it, you know.

28:02

Obviously she's on her way

28:05

out of this world. Oh it was just

28:08

heartbreaking.

28:09

Yeah, man, Deborah Mooney, you

28:11

had us in the palm of your hands. The

28:14

other part of this episode, I have to mention there's

28:17

a few. There's the huge

28:19

Cyrus James naked fight, there's

28:22

the presidential murder of

28:25

Verna Thornton, and then the

28:27

third for me is that Abby

28:29

played by Darby Stansfield, goes and

28:32

even though she's in love with David Rosen, she

28:36

says, I love you, has sex with him,

28:39

and when he leaves to go to

28:41

the court for the day, she does end up breaking

28:43

into his safe and stealing the only evidence

28:45

he has that the election was rigged. He has the

28:47

Cytron card, and he

28:50

comes back to Opa at the end and says, Abby

28:52

Wheelin, you took the card. You took the

28:54

card. She's like, I did it, I did it, and he's like, you tricked

28:56

me. You said I loved you, and she says I do. I

28:58

do love you, David, and he basically

29:01

like, I'm never speaking to you again. I hate you. He

29:03

storms out, and Abby just starts

29:05

breaking down and says, like, I did it.

29:08

I did get the card. And you see that Abby

29:10

chose to be a gladiator

29:12

at Opa versus being

29:15

with the love of her life. She makes

29:17

a massive sacrifice

29:19

to Olivia.

29:21

They were good, strong stories,

29:24

weren't they.

29:26

Deborah. It's in like all

29:28

the stuff we're talking about happened in one.

29:32

Episodes.

29:32

Yeah, wow, we will be

29:35

back with more after the break.

29:40

Do you remember, Deborah in previous episodes

29:43

where you give Kate Burton's

29:45

character Sally Langston Huck's

29:47

name, saying that Huck

29:50

is the one that is responsible for

29:52

killing the president. Do you remember that? And

29:54

then Huck gets waterboarded. I

29:56

was always so bummed that I didn't get to act

29:59

with you in I mean, we you know, our

30:01

characters interacted.

30:02

But I am too, I am too. I would have

30:04

loved that.

30:06

When you shot your last take as

30:09

Erna, what were the feelings,

30:11

what was the emotion?

30:14

Well, there's certainly a

30:17

sadness about the character,

30:20

but there's also I

30:22

think I felt like it had

30:24

been a story well

30:26

told. I enjoyed doing it.

30:29

The scripts were good, and

30:31

there's such a satisfaction in getting

30:34

to do something.

30:35

Like that, and that it's

30:37

gonna live on, right, I mean, it's gonna live

30:39

on forever.

30:40

Yeah.

30:41

Yeah. People are rewatching the show

30:43

now on Hulu and just sort of getting reintroduced,

30:46

and some people are watching it for the first time. So

30:49

Verna's gonna live on forever. Verna.

30:53

How was it shooting that scene where you had

30:55

to be in the coffin? That was so unsettling.

30:57

Because at the end of this episode, the very

30:59

end of the episode, Carrie comes

31:03

in and says, I did it. I've

31:06

given Edison back the ring, I've

31:08

called off the engage.

31:10

I don't want to be with him, and I will wait for

31:12

you. Fits. In the beginning of the episode, Fitz says

31:15

to Olivia, I'm leaving, Mellie.

31:17

It might take a minute, it might be dirty, but I'm

31:19

done. Will you wait for me? Will you wait for me? And at

31:21

the end of the episode, at your funeral,

31:24

she goes up to him and she says, I did it, Fits,

31:26

and I will I've decided like I will wait

31:29

for you, And Fitz says, now

31:32

that he knows that you all

31:34

ring to the election, he says, never

31:36

mind. No, It's one thing to

31:38

sleep with your mistress, is another thing to marry

31:40

her. He gives like a really low, horrible,

31:43

fucked up blow and Olivia's just devastated

31:46

because she feels so vulnerable and she finally

31:48

made a choice. And then he gets up and gives

31:50

your eulogy. Oh,

31:53

I know which is over you

31:55

in this casket, and you look fierce

31:58

as hell, like I was.

31:59

Saying before you so beautiful.

32:01

Yeah, your hair had the most glorious

32:03

blowout. Your makeup looked amazing. I don't

32:05

know what glorious suit land Polo put

32:07

you in, but you looked incredible.

32:10

I loved that suit that I wore, gorgeous.

32:13

Did you get to keep anything from set?

32:15

No, I didn't really. There

32:17

was a black skirt that I wore that I loved.

32:20

I did go and find.

32:21

It good good, good good. And

32:24

so that scene where we see Verna in the coffin

32:26

is sort of we're jumping from

32:29

that scene to the president and then we finally

32:31

see that fits Fitz kills

32:34

Verna, and we're going back and forth from

32:36

him talking to you and you telling him that

32:38

you guys read the election. And it's so

32:40

powerful because there he is giving your eulogy

32:43

and at the same time we're seeing him like murder

32:45

you.

32:46

He's just lying. He's saying like all

32:48

these loving, funny, no amazing

32:51

things about verna.

32:52

Oh. I thought that was a

32:55

brilliant writing, really, because

32:57

his usualgy is so when

32:59

you know the truth is just so incredible

33:02

that you could say those things.

33:04

Yeah, did you ever fall asleep

33:06

in the casket?

33:08

No? I said, Now,

33:11

it'll be half closed and half open.

33:13

Is that right, I asked before I

33:16

went up there, and they said

33:18

yes, And I said, which half? Hey,

33:22

she's got great legs. No, So

33:25

I knew I was going to have some room, and

33:27

I knew nobody's going to be coming up and talking

33:30

to me because they're all out

33:32

there and the casket was

33:34

up on a thing, so I'm

33:36

not going to have any visitors. So

33:39

I took my crossword puzzle,

33:42

my New York Times crossword puzzle I took.

33:45

I took all kinds of activities.

33:47

I have an activity bag that I

33:50

take with me when I got work, and

33:53

I had lots of activities that I

33:55

could choose from.

33:57

In fact, the camera mat

33:59

at one boy it said something about have

34:01

you had a hamburger in there? I said, yeah, you

34:03

want bus.

34:06

That's so funny, Debora. So you could

34:08

just hide it in the casket, and.

34:10

Yeah, I had also because I

34:12

didn't want to, like you

34:14

said, I'm in a casket.

34:16

No, yeah, you didn't want to think about it too much.

34:19

Yeah, I mean Burnon isn't thinking about

34:21

it.

34:22

Right, Deborah.

34:24

I do this thing on the podcast where

34:27

I'm obsessed with horror movies, and when I

34:29

looked your your work up, I

34:31

saw that you did an episode of Tales from

34:33

the Crypt.

34:34

Eh. Yes, I had a hatchet

34:36

in my head.

34:37

Oh my god. You played a character named Ellen

34:39

and Tails from the Crypt. It was one of my favorite

34:42

shows. It was like an anthology show.

34:44

Do you remember that? Do you remember that show? Yes?

34:46

Of course, do you remember that experience?

34:49

What that was like?

34:50

Oh gosh, yes. First of all,

34:53

I'm a bit cluster phobe, quite cluster

34:55

phobic, and I had to go out to this

34:58

place I forget where it was a

35:00

ways away, and they

35:02

cover you totally.

35:04

To make a cast of your face, right.

35:07

A cast of your face, so that they can bury

35:10

the hatchet as.

35:10

It were exactly.

35:12

Yeah. That really was terrifying.

35:15

And so there was that to deal with it.

35:17

And then the day of my

35:19

parents were in town and they came

35:21

with me and they

35:24

got me all into costume and

35:26

and they got the whole thing on with

35:29

the hatchet, which was heavy.

35:31

Yeah, right in your forehead. Yeah.

35:33

And then they called lunch.

35:35

No, Oh my god, I.

35:39

Had to go across the street and eat

35:41

at a Chinese restaurant with a hatchet

35:43

in my head and I had

35:45

to hold it like this because it was a heavy,

35:47

you know.

35:48

Oh my god.

35:49

I had to sit at the table and

35:51

hold it with my

35:54

parents.

35:56

Oh my god. I love that story.

36:00

By Deborah. Okay,

36:02

so a couple things. One, we got a

36:07

BodyCount edition Verna Thornton. We've

36:12

had Gideon Wallace got stabbed

36:14

in the neck with scissors, Amanda

36:17

Tanner was killed via injection

36:19

and then dropped in the Potomac, and

36:21

now Deborah Mooney was murdered

36:24

by the President himself through I guess

36:26

asphyxiation. Yeah,

36:29

so we are adding Verna Thornton as our third

36:31

member of the Scandal podcast body

36:34

Count. And another fun fact, this is why

36:36

this episode is so incredible. When

36:38

Scandal was renewed for a second season,

36:41

the network ABC only ordered

36:43

thirteen episodes. This episode

36:45

was originally meant to be the season finale,

36:49

but after receiving high

36:51

ratings within the first few episodes

36:53

of the season, ABC quickly ordered a

36:55

full twenty two episode season. Oh

36:58

but this episode feels like

37:01

like anally.

37:02

It does feels like I

37:05

didn't know that.

37:06

It feels like cliffhangers

37:09

and wrapping up of intense

37:12

things and and it's jam packed

37:14

and it's just amazing now

37:20

tweets at the time, tweets

37:23

with the one I know the demoney, Oh,

37:26

we have a whole like thing

37:29

going on now, we're doing like picture

37:31

me, like pictures of Beyonce

37:34

just saying Olivia girl, I need help. They

37:37

saying I lip synced. Oh,

37:39

somebody at the time must have been accusing Beyonce

37:41

of lip singing, which I don't remember what was happening

37:44

either. There was a lot of obvious

37:46

problems at the time of this episode

37:48

coming out that Beyonce was being accused

37:50

of lip singings. Oh, I think the

37:53

national anthem. If I heard.

37:55

That, I was wondering. I think it might

37:57

have been the national anthem.

37:58

Oh wow, And then a lot of people

38:00

are tweeting pictures

38:03

in response that Olivia Pope is saying

38:05

it's handled by.

38:06

All to Beyonce and then thanks girl.

38:09

At Maya La Shawn tweeted, am I

38:11

the only woman who does not watch scandal?

38:13

Hashtag it won't be hashtag

38:16

guard your heart? Hashtag Olivia Pope is nothing

38:18

like Judy Smith.

38:22

But you're tweeting with us? Why are you tweeting

38:24

with us? Then listen? Can I just say real

38:26

quick? If I was tweeting right now during this time,

38:28

I would have tweeted that Deborah Mooney

38:31

was in a production of Street Carname Desires

38:33

Blanche Dubois and Tennessee Williams was

38:36

there in person like my mind

38:38

it.

38:38

Said she was the greatest Blanche

38:40

of all the bland.

38:42

Yes, I'm going to go to bed with

38:44

such a huge smile on my face and just

38:48

that makes me so so happy. What an incredible

38:50

experience it certainly was.

38:53

We are so lucky to have you on

38:55

Unpacking the Toolbox, and the Gladiators

38:57

were so lucky that you were Thornton.

39:00

Because the second season

39:03

is really when the show took off and when

39:05

the ratings came and Scandal

39:07

became what it is, and I am convinced

39:10

wholeheartedly that is so much in part

39:12

because of you and your performance and your

39:14

portrail.

39:16

Thank you.

39:17

I'm obsessed with you.

39:18

Well, come on over, have some brunch, right,

39:20

I would love that Deborah Mooney brunch.

39:23

But wait, bring the champagne.

39:24

But also gladiators. I just want to let you know real quick.

39:26

Next up, episode two fourteen, which

39:28

is called Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

39:31

We don't remember what it's about, but don't worry.

39:33

We'll be watching it to make sure we do remember

39:36

and can talk to you all about all the behind

39:38

the scenes goings on. Thank you for listening,

39:40

and one more massive, massive

39:43

round of applause for

39:46

the one and only Deborah Mooneyah,

39:48

gentlemen, the greatest of the great.

39:51

Thank you.

39:53

Thank you guys for joining us on Unpacking

39:55

the Toolbox. If you enjoyed

39:57

the show, please subscribe, share with your friends,

40:00

rate, or leave us a review.

40:01

Scandal is executive produced by Sandy Bailey,

40:04

alex Alcea, Lauren Homan, Tyler

40:06

Klang, and Gabrielle Collins. Our

40:08

producer and editor is Vince de Johnny, with

40:11

music by Chad Fisher.

40:12

Scandal is a production of ABC Signature,

40:15

and you can follow along by rewatching Scandal

40:17

on Hulu.

40:18

Unpacking the Toolbox is a production of Shondaland

40:20

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40:22

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40:27

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