0:00

Welcome to Unstoppable at Craig, where we pull

0:09

back the curtain on what makes healthy workplace cultures click, and what

0:13

happens when people are empowered to expand the boundaries of what is possible.

0:17

We'll explore the perspectives of employees and leaders who have carte blanche

0:21

to speak their truths, tell their stories and unlock uncommon ways of approaching

0:25

challenges. I'm Dr. Jandel Allen Davis, CEO and President of Craig Hospital,

0:31

a world renowned rehabilitation hospital that exclusively specializes in

0:35

the neuro rehabilitation and research of patients with spinal cord and brain

0:39

injury. Join me as we learn from people who love what they do,

0:42

50.9Jandel Allen

0:49

Have you ever felt like you're speaking a different language to your

0:53

teams? I could tell you so many stories, and thankfully I think there

0:58

have been fewer of them as I've sort of had more experience and

1:02

hopefully grown and learned from the teams, but I remember one of the

1:06

best examples of this being, I was a young leader in the medical

1:10

office that I was working in at Kaiser Permanente with all these,

1:15

just brimming with ideas and things we could do or should do and

1:18

could do. And it felt like I was working a little bit at

1:22

cross purposes or certainly they weren't understanding much, and I remember

1:25

thinking about the metaphor of white water rafting, which we've had a chance,

1:30

and I've had a chance to do a little bit of in my

1:32

life, and when you come to the rapids, you actually pull the raft

1:36

out and you actually try to read the river, and you and your

1:39

team, or whoever is in the boat you look at it,

1:41

you figure out how you're gonna actually navigate your way through

1:45

the rapid, which side of the rock, whatever it is that you're gonna

1:48

And I remember thinking about that as a

1:50

great metaphor for this idea of speaking a different language and went on

1:55

to write, I'll never forget that you... We start down this,

1:58

we got... I think I got great sort of alignment, we know what

2:02

we're gonna do, we know how we're gonna shoot this thing, we get back on the raft, then we take off

2:07

and we hit the first part of the rapids and someone goes flipping

2:10

out of the boat, all the gear is gone, luckily we didn't tip

2:13

the raft, but by the time we get down, I'm one of the

2:16

people who's fallen out and I got a big old gash across my

2:19

head and we pull to the side of the river and I say,

2:22

Wow, what happened? I thought that we really had clarity around what we're

2:26

doing. And one of the more courageous team members speaks up and says,

2:31

Well, you never actually asked us if we really understood. You just sort

2:35

of said, This is what we're gonna do, and you said it with such some kind of way that we all just sort of went along

2:39

Well, you know the interesting thing

2:42

about that as a metaphor for leading teams, whether they're clinical or

2:46

administrative, is very much akin to that. And at Craig, we have doctors,

2:51

therapists, nurses, psychiatrists, social workers who come together on one

2:54

team, each of them having a different level of expertise, different perspectives

3:00

and approaches to how we're gonna treat that one patient. And in an

3:03

effort to make sure that our patient can interpret what we're saying and

3:06

have an active role in their own rehabilitation, it becomes essential that

3:09

our team of experts are speaking with one language, that they know how

3:13

we're gonna shoot those rapids as it were. You know, experts on one

3:16

interdisciplinary team often have a challenge of learning the team's language

3:20

and making sure that we're creating the space for them to put that

3:23

language into the room to get the highest quality product. And it's not

3:27

specific to healthcare settings by any means. We see it in the software

3:32

industry where you can have developers, managers, designers, and IT specialists

3:36

all coming together to hopefully create great products that help all of

3:41

us sort of navigate and make our way through the world.

3:43

Well, I'll tell you that as leaders, it's our

3:46

obligation to understand the nuances of that kind of language to foster

3:50

communication and to alleviate the tensions that can come up as a natural

3:55

part of working in teams, all at the benefit of the team,

4:02

Well, we're gonna talk to Dr. Andrew Park today, who has a one

4:05

of a kind role at Craig. He spends about a day a week,

4:09

actually, caring for patients as a spinal cord injury physician, and then

4:14

the other four days as a research scientist, and if ever there were

4:17

two languages that you think would be hand in glove and are not

4:21

at all, it would be these two. So he splits his time between

4:24

Craig's dual focuses on neuro rehabilitation and research, and he's able

4:29

to provide some important insights, I believe, into both areas of care,

4:33

which he describes as often speaking different languages.

4:36

The way he thinks about problems and the way he approaches solutions to

4:39

these problems in research and clinical work are often very different,

4:43

and this can be both a benefit and a challenge while collaborating on

4:48

an interdisciplinary team. Andrew understands the opportunities and the

4:51

challenges of what happens when we bring together those who are the best

4:55

in their field to treat a patient. So welcome, Andrew. It's so nice

4:59

to have you here. Thank you, Jandel. Really appreciate you having me on

5:03

So when we think about sort of this

5:06

beauty of navigating two roles, I could imagine that there's some real cool

5:10

moments, but also it can create some challenges. Why don't you just sort

5:13

of riff a little bit on what those are like for you?

5:15

Yeah, absolutely. I think I have one of the best jobs in the

5:18

world. You know, becoming a physician was such a life long goal,

5:22

and as I kind of traverse the process and training, as you're aware

5:25

of, to become a physician, I found that in some ways,

5:30

the position would bottleneck you into certain roles within the healthcare

5:34

system. And so an opportunity to also be able to kind of flex

5:38

this different muscle and become a researcher, it's really quite dichotomous

5:43

and contradicting to each other a lot of the time, but what I

5:46

find just so much fun about my role is that when I'm providing

5:50

clinical care and I'm frustrated with whatever, the healthcare system or

5:55

whatever I'm seeing from a clinical perspective, I can take and channel

5:59

that energy into something creative on the research side to say,

6:02

And now I have a goal, I have something that I can try to solve using research. But then sometimes research can feel very far away

6:10

from helping anybody. And so the ability to

6:14

take that context of saying, Well, I'm doing this daily grind of research,

6:18

which oftentimes is a pretty obscure and a hard thing to define,

6:22

and I can take it back into the clinic and say, Well, this is why I'm going through these steps that sometimes feel monotonous

6:28

or are far from actually helping anybody with the hope that it'll actually

6:32

help people one day. And really the beauty of it is,

6:35

is that being able to do both roles, they really serve each other.

6:40

That way my clinical questions that I'm asking

6:43

in my clinics, in my practice, I have the process to turn into

6:47

a research question, which then I can apply with a scientific method to

6:52

actually answer a fundamental question that helps me in the clinic and vice

6:56

versa, where sometimes the research world gives you

7:00

something interesting. But sometimes it's hard to understand the context

7:04

of whether that's gonna help somebody. So again, being able to

7:09

bring that information back to the clinic and say, Well, this is where

7:12

this might be applicable, or the ability to pivot and say,

7:15

This is super interesting, but actually I just don't see a path for

7:19

this to actually help anybody. So being able to make that quick switch

7:22

and say, Interesting but not relevant, let's move on. That's the benefit

7:26

of being in both worlds that I enjoy so much about my job.

7:29

Yeah, I could also... Though it's interesting

7:32

and it's funny that I thought about that navigating a river and white water rafting metaphor,

7:38

because I could also imagine that there are things you see clinically that,

7:43

Boy, this would be exciting and interesting to think about taking back to

7:46

a research team and having them go, Huh, or the other way,

7:50

the challenge of, We really do have an opportunity to answer a significant

7:54

and important clinical question. And you take it to clinicians and it's

7:57

met the same way. And do people candidly say, Huh, or do they

8:03

just sort of nod? And that's how we get the crazy,

8:05

everybody's out of the raft by the end of it, or on a

8:08

serious note, you come up with great research questions, great research

8:12

findings, and we have a heck of a time both translating,

8:15

and let alone using them in clinical practice, 'cause that feels like the

8:18

challenge the other side of this. 100%, Jandel. I would say that that

8:22

is the biggest struggle. And the real defining moment of translational medicine

8:27

versus not. Is that I see that every single day. Is where a

8:33

great question is just not appreciated. And this is true in both directions

8:41

and in every facet of what it takes to do good research or

8:44

provide good clinical care. So this is not just researchers and clinicians

8:48

that are working together or sometimes not working together, but also funding

8:53

sources. Whether it's an insurance provider on the clinical side or a funding

8:57

agency for research projects, they can't see the potential, oftentimes,

9:03

when you're trying to describe why this is important. And those things influence

9:07

how we end up practicing in both ways. So in clinical practice,

9:11

we make decisions that are driven by not always for best patient care,

9:16

but because of payer sources and those kind of things.

9:19

And vice versa, that happens in research where often times our end points

9:23

is about getting more funding, not necessarily when will this translate?

9:28

How do I get this in the hands of people who can actually

9:30

take care of patients with this? The dissemination piece that we oftentimes

9:34

forget. And so, yes, 100%. I think that's the underlying

9:39

messaging that is so important and the theme of our talk today,

9:42

which is the ability to talk multiple languages, because

9:47

that's where that translation stops. And if you're able to communicate with

9:53

multiple different parties in ways that they can understand the benefit,

9:57

I think that's the real legitimate way of

10:00

getting past that barrier to make researchers go, aha, I see the importance,

10:04

and for clinicians to say, aha, I see how that research can end

10:07

So how...

10:10

When you think about this notion of different languages, when I think about

10:18

Psychologist, nursing. There's all sorts of folks who rally around and wrap

10:23

themselves around patients when they come in. How do we respect or do

10:28

we respect the different languages and the different voices in that room?

10:32

Yeah, that's a great point. I can summarize that in one major concept,

10:36

which is kind of the gray zones and the tension that exists within

10:41

interdisciplinary teams, and how critical that is to a successful team.

10:47

The trust portion really comes with, especially, people in leadership roles,

10:52

is to really just be genuine and vulnerable.

10:55

And so I just think it's just human nature that

10:59

if you're kind of set in an environment where everyone is really targeting

11:03

one specific goal, like we do at a hospital, which is to help

11:06

the patient, that's what we fundamentally wanna do every day, and then

11:10

you bring a team member into your team, the best way to integrate

11:14

them into your team is to give them something worthwhile to do,

11:17

to contribute to the team. And sometimes team members have a hard time

11:21

knowing how they're gonna contribute unless they find gaps or problems or

11:27

something that the team isn't good at that they are good at,

11:30

or maybe they're best at. Maybe there's a lot of people who are

11:33

good at something, but they're really the best person, how can we set

11:36

them up to take on that role? As leaders I find that many

11:41

leaders who tend to be more extroverted individuals, who like to talk and

11:46

people who fill the room, sometimes it's hard to vulnerably say,

11:51

This is... I'm really bad at this. I'm really bad at this,

11:54

and I need my team members to rally around me and help me

11:58

with this portion, 'cause I'm surely not an expert in this.

12:01

So whether it's self deprecating humor or whatever it may be,

12:05

your team needs to feel like they have space to contribute

12:08

in every single day. And so there are some natural obvious components to

12:12

that, which is that... Obviously, I'm not a physical therapist or an occupational

12:16

therapist or any member of our interdisciplinary team. I couldn't do their

12:19

job. And so there's naturally expertise on the team. But then there are

12:24

The intangibles.

12:27

The intangibles, yes. They are the, who's the most organized person in the

12:31

group, or who is the most tactful person?

12:37

Sometimes you need the stern parent in the group for a certain type

12:42

of patient, while other times you need a much more softer hand with

12:46

other types of patients. It's the psychologist's job to deal with the patient's

12:50

54.2Jandel

12:54

Right. So, no, it's not because they may be able to

12:57

help influence our thought process and how to work with a certain patient,

13:00

but we all have a role to play in making the patient feel

13:03

comfortable, confident and progressing both through the grieving process

13:07

and understanding of the new injury, but then

13:10

to get the most out of them every single day to set them

13:13

up for success. And I'll tell you, being part of Craig Hospital,

13:16

what I love is we have these very highly integrated teams on the

13:21

clinical side and the research side that allow

13:25

individuals and the team themselves to figure out these roles, and over

13:30

time through knowing each other and trusting each other. So without saying

13:34

names, there are certain physicians in the group who

13:39

by delegated authority are the leaders of the group and are not the

13:43

most organized human beings. Great human beings, but there are members of

13:47

That's

13:50

so cool. And they serve a different role. Like context and big picture.

13:55

While there are other teams where the physician is the driver of the

13:58

organization and the dictator of the agenda, but that allows the team to

14:03

work in different ways and have other types of strengths that they bring

14:06

to the table and are able to provide to the patient.

14:09

So I heard trust, I heard vulnerability, I

14:13

heard humility, and this notion of leveraging the team strengths, those

14:19

intangible strengths, that actually aren't that intangible if

14:22

we're paying attention and really getting to know our team members well.

14:26

We sort of know who we need to have fly in at a

14:29

given point, and making sure that all the team members know that there

14:32

is their sort of content knowledge that they bring and expertise.

14:35

But they also bring their humanity, they bring their human ness.

14:38

That is important too. How does this look on the research side?

14:43

Same sorts of... Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think the research side is...

14:47

It's been a learning experience for me as well. But overall,

14:50

it's really the same themes and the same concepts, but applied in a very

14:54

different way. I think the context and the timelines and the urgency is

15:01

different on the research side. And that would be my criticism.

15:05

But also... But at the same time, there's a thoughtfulness

15:10

and a rigorousness to research that sometimes is lacking on the clinical

15:15

side. And so bringing that marriage is... It creates a lot of tension,

15:20

and I bet there are clinicians who think maybe a little too slow

15:24

and methodical when it comes to some clinical things or maybe too abstract,

15:28

and there's probably some researchers who think I'm just a little too much

15:32

pedal on the metal, I'd say. Slow your role a little bit.

15:36

But that's because living in both worlds, you try to find the middle

15:39

So say a

15:42

little bit more then how you navigate that 'cause you are between two

15:44

worlds. Right? And actually within those worlds, there are multiple languages.

15:48

Statisticians, bio statisticians talking

15:52

Talking

15:55

to the people who really understand the technology and the databases.

15:59

There are clinicians and there are people who've never touched patients who are also doing the same

16:04

work? Right, right, 100%. So I think it starts

16:08

by saying it out loud and providing that context to everyone you talk

16:11

to. So I have a same spiel, it doesn't matter if I'm talking

16:14

to clinicians or researchers or patients and their family members, I start

16:18

by saying, It is contradictory to do research and be a clinician.

16:23

It is contradictory. As a healthcare, as a physician, my job is to

16:28

do no harm. That is what I vowed to do.

16:30

And under that mandate, providing solid concrete evidence and trying to

16:37

minimize risk to my patient is priority number one.

16:40

But as a researcher, it's the exact opposite actually. We're trying to push

16:44

the science and innovate, and that inherently has harm and potential risks.

16:49

And so my job as a researcher is to inform about the harm

16:53

The potential harm you mean. The potential harm? Right, right, exactly. So the potential risks

16:59

that we're taking push the science. And that role can be really difficult

17:03

to navigate if your participant in a research project also happens to be

17:09

your patient in the clinic. So those lines can be really blurred really

17:14

most importantly for the patient and their family members. So when I'm consenting

17:18

a patient for one of my studies, I talk about putting on my

17:21

researcher hat. This is a different person you're talking to right now.

17:25

I have biases now as a researcher that I don't have as your

17:28

physician. And so that's how I talk about it. I need you to

17:32

participate in this study because you participating equals me finishing

17:36

the study, which will mean me getting funding for a different study,

17:39

and I have to... There's this incentive bias that I have.

17:43

So I lay it out for my patients who are now my participants.

17:47

And I ask the same of my colleagues. When I come into a

17:50

room and I talk to a group of researchers, I give them that

17:54

context and say, Listen, the battle that we have in front of us

17:57

is that clinicians do not want to put their patients in any higher

18:02

risk of harm than they absolutely need to. And every day we come

18:05

in here and ask them to put their patients in more potential harm

18:09

than them not participating in the study. So that's the context.

18:13

So we gotta be really sure we're gonna do something meaningful for these

18:18

participants. That we're gonna push the science in a meaningful direction.

18:22

And I would argue we can't do that without the clinicians.

18:27

And vice versa though, 'cause clinicians, just as you mentioned, statistics,

18:32

research methodology, funding language to bureaucracy, all the things that

18:37

operationalize research is not necessarily taught very... Not very high

18:43

language in medical training necessarily. Just because you're a clinician

18:47

doesn't necessarily mean you really understand what it takes to do research.

18:51

Is a clinical question really a research question? Is this something that

18:55

research can answer right now with what we have and feasibility and all

19:00

the components that's necessary for research? So that gets lost to clinicians

19:05

relatively frequently because you can't see the end game of how this little

19:10

tiny study may improve things in the future, but vice versa without that

19:15

knowledge and that potential then we may choose to throw the baby out

19:18

of the bath water every time. So that was a really long way

19:21

of saying, you first point that out and give that

19:25

kind of perspective. And then the rest of it is, again,

19:27

that humility piece. You have to ride that line of knowing just enough

19:31

to be dangerous. I'm not a statistician but I know enough statistics so

19:36

I can start talking to a statistician. The basis of how they're thinking

19:40

through the process, and realizing that if I try to do this by

19:43

myself, I'd make a mess of statistics and do some bad things,

19:47

but to be able to start that conversation with them

19:50

Talk a little bit about what does it take to be that kind of high performing

19:56

interdisciplinary team, whether we're talking clinical or research, or frankly

19:59

even administratively? Yeah, thank you. That's a great set up.

20:05

I think back to my medical training and something I noticed immediately

20:09

when I entered the rehabilitation world as a good starting place,

20:12

which is back when I was in medical school, the idea of Interdisciplinary

20:17

Rounds with the patient in front of the ICU bed, that was kind

20:21

of a hot topic. Still is. We still try to perfect it.

20:26

So the idea that every member of this interdisciplinary team stands around

20:29

and talks about the patient together. And what a great idea.

20:32

What a great concept. And then I came into the rehabilitation world and

20:37

said, Man, we've been doing this forever. This has been just how we

20:42

function for the longest time. But it's not that...

20:46

There's something different that I couldn't quite put onto it until later

20:49

into my career, which is that an interdisciplinary team that are standing

20:53

and talking about their specific discipline, pharmacists talking about medications,

20:59

physician talking about some sort of management plan, the case manager talking

21:03

about a disposition program, these are all good things. It's good for us.

21:07

I'll hear what each of us are doing. But that's not truly the power of a true interdisciplinary team.

21:14

The power is when as a physician, I know

21:19

something about your job as a physical therapist or as a case manager

21:24

through osmosis, through mutual discussions and education and the team being

21:29

the same team for a long period of time.

21:32

I can become a case manager light and understand their world a little

21:36

bit better, have really a scope of what they're doing when they're not

21:39

with me on a daily basis. Oh yeah, I know that my case

21:42

manager is gonna go and meet with the patient, and within the first

21:46

two to three days, 'cause they really love to do that,

21:48

and then I know they're going to talk about this component and the

21:52

payer source and do all of these things. There's an entire meeting or

21:55

the focus meeting here at Craig that doctors are not invited to on

21:58

purpose, because it's very important for them to stay focussed and that

22:04

It's funny. So there are all these pieces that are happening outside of

22:09

my realm that I know they're going to be doing because I understand

22:13

that case manager and how they function and how a physical therapist functions,

22:18

and the nuances of what their evaluation and care are doing.

22:22

And this is really hard to do after your training has ended,

22:25

'cause now we got a job to do. You gotta do your job

22:27

as a physician, and so that's a full time thing, but if you're

22:31

with the same team with long enough, you can get this osmosis and

22:35

learn about what their roles are beyond these very superficial content points.

22:41

And then if you can start predicting what

22:44

your team is going to do and start communicating that with your patient

22:47

and their family members, just again, full loop back to just setting up

22:51

your team for success every time. You know that if so and so

22:55

therapist on my team is definitely going to talk to you about

22:59

bathroom equipment on day two. So if something about the bowel program comes

23:05

up, you can say, So and so is gonna talk to you about

23:08

this tomorrow. And then guess what? They come in and then they say

23:11

They come in and then they do it. And they're like, Oh yeah. Everybody's on the same page here. Everybody's getting

23:15

it. Everybody... There's a process of that. And again,

23:20

I can only say it long windedly because I still have a great

23:24

name for what that is, but it's a level of interdisciplinary ness that

23:28

How do you, as

23:33

a physician, as a research scientist, as a leader,

23:38

sort of deal with the mythical part of Dr. Park, when you know

23:42

darn well, and we know it, even as the good clinicians,

23:46

you don't get that stuff done by yourself. 100%. Oh, that's a great

23:49

segue. What a great topic. The most important thing is

23:54

when there are situations where you are deemed the expert or the person

23:58

in charge by the system and not by reality or

24:03

actual how things work in real life, you point that out to your

24:06

team. You point out the ridiculousness of some of our roles.

24:11

And I've given this example before of there are many cases in interdisciplinary

24:15

teams where the physician's signature is the end game of the process.

24:19

Oh, gosh. I just had a therapists work on this

24:23

extremely complicated wheelchair prescription involving every nut and bolt

24:28

and chair and cushion, and every delivery system, and then at the end

24:33

of the day, they need my signature for this to be prescribed.

24:39

It's like a hyperbole, isn't it? Everything I know about wheelchairs is from my team, and so... But there's that ridiculousness where I need to

24:45

sign that for the insurance company to authorize this wheelchair. And so

24:48

you gotta point that out to your team and say, This is ridiculous.

24:51

We both know this is ridiculous, but we're gonna go through the motions

24:54

That's

24:56

gonna help the patient. Yeah. At the end of the day, that's what we're here for, right? So sometimes we have to be okay

25:00

with some ridiculous things and deal with the realities of a system,

25:05

if we know that the end goal is this, but I'm

25:08

right there with you. I'm never gonna question you on your decision regarding

25:12

some piece of equipment that I have no expertise really on. So that's

25:17

how you move from that delegated authority, someone told you, your boss,

25:21

to legitimate authority, from being vulnerable, pointing out your flaws

25:26

and looking for answers. Another way is to just... Again, if you really

25:31

know your team and why the expertise lies, use that.

25:34

Nothing more valuable than going to a team member with a problem and

25:38

saying, I don't have a solution for this, and I think you're really

25:40

good at this. What do you think? Every chance try to get feedback,

25:45

get out of your own head, even if you have an answer that

25:47

you think is excellent, to go to your members of the team that

25:51

are truly experts, and that placation. And within the team they know,

25:55

this person is really good at talking through these tough situations,

25:58

or, This person's really level headed and could handle this really well,

26:01

or, This is our expert on a very specific topic like. That might be... Feel

26:07

specific. No one in the team questions that if you say,

26:11

I went to this member of the team to talk about that,

26:13

and I'm gonna come to you for this type of topic. And there isn't any hurt feelings when you didn't talk to everyone every

26:20

time about every problem, because everyone on the team knows, Yeah,

26:23

if I had that problem, I would go to that person too.

26:25

That's so true. It's a... Just a... I

26:29

had a, I don't know if you've heard the phrase, a bust your

26:31

buttons proud moment last week at the hospital board meeting, and I think

26:35

it was actually one of the best board meetings we've had when we

26:38

had not people with big titles, directors or vice presidents, but we had

26:44

some folks who were truly the experts present on different topics,

26:47

and I wouldn't have done that anywhere close to as well,

26:52

anywhere close. And I would even challenge my other executive team members

26:56

to say, And we couldn't have done it that way either. So I think what you're speaking to is that the way we get

27:01

out of this notion of the mythical or the charismatic

27:06

leader of teams or of research projects and research work, let alone the

27:11

chair that I get to occupy right now, is to let them speak.

27:16

Give them the spotlight from time to time and let them do it.

27:19

And you also have no idea where it'll take them in their career.

27:22

So another great way to think about it. Thanks though for spending time

27:26

with us today to talk about this notion of... Well, we talked about

27:28

a lot of notions, but this notion of really the languages that we

27:32

speak and how translating them, which is not a technical exercise,

27:38

it's all. It's not head, it's heart and gut, it's how we pull

27:41

44.8Jandel

27:43

Comes down to just people and caring about them.

27:46

And you do it beautifully. So thank you. It was my honor.

27:49

I appreciate it. I love these conversations. I look to have some more

27:51

It's a real privilege and honor

28:00

to have the opportunity to talk to a physician colleague, and,

28:04

interestingly, one who is relatively early in his career relative to my

28:08

age and where I am, and to think that a guy who's figured

28:12

out and has channeled this sort of wisdom so early in his career

28:16

is going to continue to provide lots of great learnings over the decades

28:21

that he continues to practice. But what are those essential ingredients,

28:25

those pre conditions to creating the environment for teams to flourish?

28:32

It's about providing as a leader, real clarity around what it is that

28:36

we seek to do. And it can be hard. In all honesty, that level, the kind of clarity that people will need,

28:44

especially as we take on audacious and big work in our organizations,

28:49

One,

28:52

to figure out what's the language that is gonna speak to the hearts

28:55

and the minds of people who have to do the work,

28:58

but also take time to make sure that people are committed,

29:02

going back to my rafting, my white water rafting analogy, that they're really

29:07

committed to making sure that we're gonna get through that set of Class

29:10

4, Class 3, Class 5 rapid safely, because we are all

29:15

in. And I mean, we are all in. So I think that's another

29:18

The other thing I heard from

29:21

Andrew that I think is really, really important, and I spoke to it

29:25

at the beginning of this, at the top of the time together,

29:28

is this notion of being I would say culturally versatile. That is the

29:34

ability to speak multiple languages, to speak multiple dialects, which means,

29:39

back to what I said at first, it's about people and you must

29:42

know them through and through. So that's it. I hope that you picked

29:45

up some great nuggets today in our Unstoppable at Craig, and here's to

29:50

continuing the journey of building great teams. Thank you.