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We recently covered the case

1:01

of 25-year-old to Forrest Johnson,

1:04

who was charged with the

1:06

1998 shooting of Officer William

1:08

Bill Hardy. To Forrest now

1:10

sits on death row in

1:12

an Alabama prison for a

1:14

crime his alibi say he

1:17

could not have committed. Silesia

1:19

Stanton, host of the Tenderfoot

1:21

podcast, Truer Crime, recently sat

1:23

down with journalist Beth Shelburne,

1:25

who investigated Deforest case and

1:27

documented her findings in the

1:30

podcast, Year Witness, which we mention

1:32

in our episode. We want to

1:34

bring you their discussion, hoping it

1:36

adds some additional insight to Deforest

1:39

case. So without further ado, here's

1:41

Silesia. Hi

1:44

friends, today I'm bringing you something a

1:47

little different. A bonus episode featuring

1:49

a conversation with investigative journalist

1:51

Beth Shelburne. If you listen

1:53

to this week's episode on to

1:55

Forrest Johnson, you already know that

1:58

best reporting was instrumental in... uncovering

2:00

the deep flaws in his conviction.

2:03

But beyond that, she's one of

2:05

the best investigative reporters working today.

2:07

Beth has spent more than 25

2:10

years reporting on injustice in Alabama's

2:12

legal system. Covering everything from wrongful

2:14

convictions to the horrors of the state's

2:16

prison system. Her work has appeared in

2:18

the Daily Beast, the LA Times, and

2:20

the Bitter Southerner, and in 2023, she

2:23

created and hosted Ear Witness, a podcast

2:25

about De Forest case that was named

2:27

one of Entertainment Weekly's 30 Best True

2:29

Crime podcasts of all time. She also

2:31

writes a sub-stack newsletter called Moth the

2:33

Flame, where she continues to dig

2:35

into the intersection of justice, injustice,

2:37

and life in Alabama. I was so excited

2:40

to have the opportunity to chat with

2:42

Beth and I think you're really going

2:44

to enjoy hearing from her. We dive

2:46

deep going behind the scenes of ear

2:48

witness to talk about what it looked

2:50

like to actually put it all together.

2:52

We also get into some of the

2:54

biggest questions still hanging over this case.

2:56

Like who else might have killed Deputy

2:58

Bill Hardy and what's next in to

3:01

force fight for freedom? So, let's get into

3:03

it. So

3:10

I just wanted to jump in by talking

3:12

a little bit more about the process

3:14

of creating and making earwitness. I felt

3:16

like from the moment I listened to

3:18

the first episode, it's such a compelling,

3:20

well-reported series. And that really sticks out.

3:22

I think there's so much true crime

3:24

media, but this was just so well

3:26

done. And I'm just curious if you

3:28

could walk us through a little bit

3:30

more about the process of how it

3:32

came together, like what are some of

3:34

the biggest challenges you face while working

3:36

on it, what kind of surprise do

3:38

you? What's the behind the scenes of

3:40

that? Yeah, thank you for the

3:42

kind words about ear witness. Thankfully,

3:45

I had a fantastic producer named

3:47

Mara McNamara that worked with me

3:49

from the very beginning. So once

3:51

we decided to do the project,

3:54

we took a solid year to

3:56

do all of the research, interviews,

3:58

all the reports. that you hear

4:01

in the series. We thought it

4:03

would take three to six months

4:05

and it ended up taking a

4:07

year. But we started with doing

4:09

a full examination of

4:11

everything that is knowable. about this

4:14

case. So we went back to

4:16

the very beginning. We went through

4:19

the investigative file, starting from like

4:21

the very first police report that

4:23

was filed after Deputy Bill Hardy

4:26

was shot and killed. We read

4:28

the trial transcripts, cover to cover,

4:31

and we did a full audit

4:33

of every single media story that

4:35

had ever been written about this

4:38

crime, about the trials, everything that

4:40

happened. up until present day. And

4:42

so we really wanted to

4:44

reach out to anyone and

4:46

everyone that would be willing

4:48

to talk to us. And

4:50

we ended up with over

4:52

80 on the record interviews

4:54

during that year that we

4:56

were doing all this reporting.

4:59

The biggest challenge we faced

5:01

was time. I mean, this

5:03

case started in 1995. It's

5:05

over 25 years old. Many

5:07

people that were involved have

5:09

died. They've gotten older, they've

5:11

retired, they've moved away. Their memories just

5:13

were not as clear as we would

5:15

have hoped. And then some people just

5:17

because of the stakes in this case,

5:20

you have a police officer shot and

5:22

killed, you have a man on death

5:24

row, they just didn't want to get

5:26

involved. So one of the things that

5:28

I found interesting while listening was just

5:30

you really kind of bringing us into

5:33

the story, tackling things from so many

5:35

different angles, and over time I just

5:37

found myself feeling like more and more

5:39

I was convinced that Forrest Nandregas had

5:41

nothing to do with this murder.

5:43

And really even just from the

5:45

very beginning, I feel like having

5:47

multiple alibi witnesses which placed them

5:49

at a completely different location was

5:51

alarming just kind of from the

5:53

outset. So I'm curious for you

5:55

as somebody who was going through

5:57

that reporting process was there a

5:59

moment during investigation or your reporting

6:02

that particularly solidified your own belief

6:04

in his innocence and did you

6:06

kind of try to stay sort

6:08

of mentally objective about it till

6:10

the completion of the process or

6:13

how did you feel? Well going

6:15

into the process of making the

6:17

podcast I had already been reporting

6:19

onto Forrest Case for over a

6:21

year so I didn't go into

6:24

it. you know, immediately believing that

6:26

he was innocent. I knew that

6:28

he said that, that his family

6:30

said that, that his attorneys believed

6:32

that, but I wasn't really sure.

6:35

But once we started really doing

6:37

a deep dive into this, I

6:39

think the thing that really stood

6:41

out to me in this case

6:43

that's different from other wrongful convictions.

6:46

is the position of the original

6:48

prosecutor who supports a new trial

6:50

and has spoken on the record

6:52

saying that he has doubts about

6:54

the credibility of this case. And

6:57

you know, that never happens post-conviction.

6:59

In any case, really, but especially

7:01

a death penalty case, in the

7:03

process of doing the podcast we

7:05

interviewed. Jeff Wallace, the original prosecutor,

7:08

three different times. And just his

7:10

openness and his willingness to hear

7:12

what we were discovering, we were

7:14

able to develop a relationship with

7:16

him. And I think the doubt

7:19

about the witness's credibility that he

7:21

expressed and then kind of how

7:23

that grew throughout the process of

7:25

what we were bringing to him

7:27

and telling him we were learning.

7:30

That to me. It's so extraordinary,

7:32

but to be in a relationship

7:34

with somebody as they're going through

7:36

that process was really convincing to

7:38

me and showed me the degree

7:41

to which he and others that

7:43

were involved in this prosecution really

7:45

have deep, profound concerns. that the

7:47

wrong person was convicted. And I

7:49

think that our system is so

7:52

adversarial and so many prosecutors are

7:54

only interested in defending convictions. The

7:56

fact that he is speaking out

7:58

in the way that he is

8:00

when he doesn't have to, that's

8:03

really what told me a hundred

8:05

percent this case is extraordinary. I

8:07

mean, I've always based my opinion

8:09

on this case according to the

8:11

evidence. And, you know, what's in

8:14

the record, I've seen the whole

8:16

investigative record, and there's nothing there.

8:18

I've taken a position, I believe,

8:20

to force Johnson is innocent, but

8:23

I've also always been open. If

8:25

somebody can show me evidence that

8:27

points to him, I will be

8:29

open to seeing it. If somebody

8:31

wants to present another theory about

8:34

what happened, I want to hear

8:36

about it. But, you know, my

8:38

phone's not ringing. Right. To the

8:40

point of what are these other

8:42

theories. That was something that I

8:45

didn't get into on my episode.

8:47

I mean, there wasn't a ton

8:49

of deep dive into that on

8:51

ear witness, but I'm just kind

8:53

of curious, you know, obviously there's

8:56

this interest in... convicting someone, especially

8:58

like you said, this is a

9:00

cop who was murdered, who, you

9:02

know, had close ties to other

9:04

folks on the force. So this

9:07

was important to people, to find

9:09

somebody that they could say, you

9:11

know, this is the person who

9:13

is responsible. And if it is

9:15

true, you know, that to force

9:18

is innocent and he's able to

9:20

be released from prison one day,

9:22

that still leaves this open question

9:24

of who is responsible for this

9:26

murder. So I'm curious if you

9:29

know in your investigation and from

9:31

your conversation with people if there

9:33

were other suspects who you felt

9:35

like could have been viable leads

9:37

and if so like why do

9:40

you think that those people were

9:42

overlooked? There were four people originally

9:44

arrested and charged with capital murder.

9:46

Two of them were eventually released

9:48

and the charges were dropped when

9:51

Yolanda Chambers changed her story another

9:53

time and said these guys didn't

9:55

do it and One of those

9:57

men is now dead and the

9:59

other one we tried very hard

10:02

to talk to and he wouldn't

10:04

engage with us. I can't blame

10:06

him. If I was charged with

10:08

a murder and the charges got

10:10

dropped, I wouldn't talk to a

10:13

reporter about it. Yeah. I don't

10:15

really go into this on my

10:17

episode. These other two people who

10:19

were implicated and then initially charged

10:21

and then it was dropped. We

10:24

mostly talk about, obviously, Forrest and

10:26

Rodriguez, since the trials, their trials

10:28

actually went through. Can you give

10:30

a little bit more background on

10:32

that? Were these folks that Yolanda

10:35

had also, like made a part

10:37

of her original story? So yes,

10:39

they were also implicated by Yolanda

10:41

Chambers, the 15-year-old informant that changed

10:43

her story over and over again

10:46

with police, not in her original

10:48

story. I mean, every time she

10:50

spoke to police, her story. So,

10:52

at one point, she implicated them,

10:54

then she said later, no, they

10:57

didn't do it. She did the

10:59

same thing with Teforist and Rodriguez.

11:01

You know, she ended up recanting

11:03

everything, which we cover... in the

11:05

podcast and telling a judge on

11:08

the stand that she made it

11:10

all up because of pressure from

11:12

police. But these other two guys,

11:14

Omar Barry and Quintes Wilson, they

11:16

were also young black men that

11:19

lived in Birmingham. They sort of

11:21

ran in similar social circles as

11:23

to Forrest and Rodriguez, but they

11:25

weren't like real tight friends. They

11:27

also went. to the same clubs

11:30

that all these young people went

11:32

to at the time, and I

11:34

think had met Yolanda and some

11:36

of her friends in passing at

11:38

one of these clubs. The Jaguar

11:41

was the club that she met

11:43

Ardragas into forest at, and that's

11:45

not where Ardragas into forest were

11:47

the night of the murder. They

11:50

were at T's place. But I

11:52

think she had met... at least

11:54

Quintez Wilson at the Jaguar. Quintez

11:56

Wilson has since been shot and

11:58

killed in a drug deal. And

12:01

then the other man, Mr. Berry,

12:03

he lives in Birmingham and, you

12:05

know, works a regular job and

12:07

has a regular life. And we

12:09

really wanted to talk to him

12:12

about his experience. I actually don't

12:14

think that he had anything to

12:16

do with it. I think he

12:18

was swept up just like to

12:20

force Nardregas, but you know he

12:23

didn't want to talk to us

12:25

and really has sort of just

12:27

lived a private life since this

12:29

happened. So I don't think that

12:31

those two men, there was any

12:34

more or stronger evidence on them

12:36

that there was on to force

12:38

Nardregas. I think that rather than

12:40

the right suspects being overlooked, I

12:42

think it was more like they

12:45

were just totally missed or ignored

12:47

by police. I think, like you

12:49

said, they felt so much pressure

12:51

to make an arrest in this

12:53

investigation and to bring it to

12:56

a conclusion. the lead detective Tony

12:58

Richardson who you hear from a

13:00

lot and the podcast told us

13:02

as much you know he said

13:04

it was a rushed investigation he

13:07

regrets feeling all that pressure and

13:09

moving like a freight train is

13:11

what he called it and I

13:13

think that when you have a

13:15

very emotional investigation like this was.

13:18

This was someone they knew that

13:20

was shot and killed on the

13:22

job. And when you have all

13:24

of this pressure coming down from

13:26

politicians from the elected sheriff from

13:29

the law enforcement community, it really

13:31

can be the perfect storm for

13:33

tunnel vision to develop. And so

13:35

I think once they had a

13:37

theory that was provided by Yolanda

13:40

Chambers, this 15-year-old informant, they stuck

13:42

with it at the expense of...

13:44

every other possible lead and suspect.

13:46

Kind of going back to these

13:48

two other men who were originally

13:51

charged, you said, you know, you

13:53

don't feel like there was like

13:55

any stronger evidence to sort of

13:57

implicate them, but those charges were

13:59

dropped against them. You don't want

14:02

to change her story lots of

14:04

times right to implicate sometimes or

14:06

drag us or sometimes implicate to

14:08

force and then these other two.

14:10

You think it was just the

14:13

story that she happened to beyond

14:15

at the time that the charges

14:17

were filed. It's hard to say

14:19

because there wasn't a very clear

14:21

explanation in the investigative record on

14:24

what happened. There were like one

14:26

or two mentions in the archival

14:28

media that charges were dropped because

14:30

the witness recanted, but as far

14:32

as why that seemed to matter

14:35

so much to detectives at the

14:37

time that they would drop the

14:39

charges. let the charges against to

14:41

Forrest and our dragest stick? I

14:43

don't know. It wasn't really reflected

14:46

in the record what their thinking

14:48

was. And Tony Richardson couldn't really

14:50

say. Wow, that's super interesting. I

14:52

think another report that stuck out

14:54

to me in listening to your

14:57

witness was that multiple folks had

14:59

described a light-colored sedan that had

15:01

left the crime scene. which didn't

15:03

actually end up matching our dragus'

15:05

car, any car that we knew

15:08

that either of them had. How

15:10

do you interpret that evidence? Like,

15:12

is there any leads as to

15:14

whose car that might have been,

15:17

and has that ever been kind

15:19

of revisited by investigators? I don't

15:21

think it's been revisited unfortunately, but

15:23

I interpret it as maybe the

15:25

most glaring example of a missed

15:28

lead that we found in the

15:30

investigative file. I mean, if you

15:32

think about it, the description of

15:34

this vehicle came from two separate

15:36

witnesses that were in different parts

15:39

of the hotel. These people didn't

15:41

even know each other. They both...

15:43

heard gunshots and went to their

15:45

window and looked out their window

15:47

from different vantage points and saw

15:50

this vehicle driving away with the

15:52

headlights off and it was such

15:54

a specific description that they gave

15:56

a light copper or gold sedan

15:58

with a burgundy vinyl top. I

16:01

mean that is really specific. Right.

16:03

And police never found the car.

16:05

Tony Richardson when he appeared in

16:07

front of the grand jury was

16:09

asked about this description and said,

16:12

he didn't think the car existed.

16:14

And they went on a wild

16:16

goose chase looking for that car

16:18

and it didn't exist. But the

16:20

truth is, that is the only

16:23

consistent description of a getaway car

16:25

that was given by witnesses. And

16:27

I think that someone shot Deputy

16:29

Hardy, got into that sedan with

16:31

the Burgundy vinyl top, and got

16:34

away with murder with murder with

16:36

murder with murder. Yeah, that's interesting.

16:38

I didn't know the detail about

16:40

the Burgundy top. That's so specific

16:42

that it feels like that's the

16:45

one car. There couldn't have been

16:47

another car that you happen to

16:49

have seen that maps that description.

16:51

So there were about six vehicles

16:53

described on the original bolo that

16:56

police put out, but they were

16:58

so generic. They were like... Oh,

17:00

I think I saw a white

17:02

car drive off or, you know,

17:04

I caught the tail lights of

17:07

a car that looked like it

17:09

was green. These two men actually

17:11

saw the car leaving the parking

17:13

lot, making a turn, and then

17:15

getting on the highway. So they

17:18

watched it for a little while.

17:20

In fact, both of them saw

17:22

a single person get into the

17:24

car. Oh, interesting. Yeah. And, you

17:26

know, I think that's as close

17:29

as we can get to somebody

17:31

who actually... witnessed the killer leaving.

17:33

Right, right. And so obviously a

17:35

lot of the investigators kind of

17:37

turning their attention to our drag

17:40

us into forest really comes from

17:42

15-year-old Yolanda Chamber's claims that implicated

17:44

them in this murder. But it

17:46

would ultimately be the testimony of

17:48

a different person, a woman named

17:51

Violet Ellison, that proved really pivotal

17:53

to to forest conviction in particular.

17:55

Violet had claimed that she had

17:57

overheard a phone conversation where Deforce

17:59

was allegedly admitting that he had

18:02

killed Deputy Bill Hardy. But your

18:04

reporting uncovered a ton of issues

18:06

with Violet's credibility. And some of

18:08

that was things that I wasn't

18:10

able to get into as much

18:13

on true crime. And one particularly

18:15

shocking detail for me was just

18:17

what you just said. when you

18:19

spoke with some of Violet Ellison's

18:21

family members. Can you share what

18:24

you uncovered? Yeah, and we, you

18:26

know, typically, and I say this

18:28

in the podcast, I don't. make

18:30

it a practice to go investigate

18:32

private people and like, you know,

18:35

put their business out on the

18:37

street. But this is a death

18:39

penalty case where the entire case

18:41

is predicated on this one witness

18:43

and what she claims she heard,

18:46

where there's no way to even

18:48

verify, there's no way to verify

18:50

that it even happened. So we

18:52

did seek out. character witnesses, you

18:55

know, people that know her, people

18:57

in her community, people who have

18:59

worked with her, and family members.

19:01

And it turns out she's estranged

19:03

from many people in her family,

19:06

including her grandchildren. And when we

19:08

tracked them down, they told us

19:10

separately similar stories and impressions of

19:12

their grandmother that she's not a

19:14

trustworthy person. that she had lied

19:17

to police in the past, oftentimes

19:19

to protect her son, who has

19:21

a long criminal history, but also

19:23

they characterized her as somebody who

19:25

just is a busy body, inserts

19:28

herself into other people's business, and

19:30

is someone who was really motivated

19:32

strictly by money. And in this

19:34

case, there was a sizable reward.

19:36

and they think that she was

19:39

after it. And we know that

19:41

the state cut her a check

19:43

for $5,000 after she testified and

19:45

Deforest was convicted. Yeah, and I

19:47

definitely recommend anybody who's interested in

19:50

this case to go listen to

19:52

your witness. And I think it's

19:54

especially compelling to hear directly from,

19:56

you know, her family members kind

19:58

of speaking to some of this

20:01

and you're really able to deep

20:03

dive this over the course of

20:05

an episode. It's definitely worth listening

20:07

to. We really didn't know what

20:09

we were going to get when

20:12

we started tracking down her family

20:14

members. Right. We had some inkling.

20:16

with some people that spoke to

20:18

us just on background, that there

20:20

was a lot of discord in

20:23

her family, but we drove to

20:25

Georgia because we had addresses for

20:27

her grandchildren and just did like

20:29

an unannounced knock, and they were

20:31

happy to speak with us. They

20:34

actually had heard of this case

20:36

when it got media attention in

20:38

2019 when Deforest went back to

20:40

court and this... secret reward payment

20:42

to Violet Ellison was revealed in

20:45

court. And so that made the

20:47

news and their grandmother's name was

20:49

in the news and this was

20:51

the first that they knew of

20:53

it and they were horrified. Yeah,

20:56

and I think just hearing you

20:58

literally kind of like drive up,

21:00

go knock on the door, it's

21:02

very shocking just to kind of

21:04

see, you know, what they were

21:07

willing to share, you know, it's

21:09

not like you had built report

21:11

with these particular people over a

21:13

period of a period of time.

21:15

But that wasn't the only thing

21:18

that you reveal on your witness

21:20

that you had kind of uncovered

21:22

during your reporting on Violet Ellison.

21:24

You also discovered that this wasn't

21:26

the only court case where she

21:29

claimed to have pivotal information that

21:31

investigators wanted. Can you kind of

21:33

speak to that a bit more?

21:35

Yeah, we were doing searches in

21:37

Alabama's online. court records and happened

21:40

upon a different way to use

21:42

this very clunky pull-down menu and

21:44

found four other criminal cases where

21:46

Violet Ellison was listed as a

21:48

state's witness. So there was a

21:51

paper trail connected to these four

21:53

cases. She presented herself to police

21:55

from what we could tell in

21:57

records as someone who had information.

21:59

And one of them, she testified.

22:02

And the wild thing was this

22:04

case happened the same year of

22:06

De Force Johnson's trial in the

22:08

same courthouse, but nobody that was

22:10

representing him. knew that the state's

22:13

star witness against him was also

22:15

testifying in other felony cases that

22:17

year. This was a robbery that

22:19

happened across the street from Miss

22:22

Ellison's house. She testified and identified

22:24

a woman who was being charged

22:26

as one of the people involved

22:28

and claimed that she could see

22:30

her from the window of her

22:33

house and she identified her in

22:35

court under oath saying I know

22:37

she was there. It turns out

22:39

the woman's attorneys were able to

22:41

convince the jury that... There was

22:44

no way Miss Ellison could see

22:46

the people that were committing the

22:48

robbery because there were trees obstructing

22:50

the view from the windows of

22:52

her house. And so the jury

22:55

ultimately did not believe Violet Ellison

22:57

in this case and the woman

22:59

that was charged in this robbery

23:01

was acquitted. She was found not

23:03

guilty. But... Finding these cases and

23:06

her name as a state's witness

23:08

seems to support this notion that

23:10

her grandchildren told us that there

23:12

is a pattern of her inserting

23:14

herself into cases and going to

23:17

police, they believe trying to get

23:19

preferential treatment for her son who

23:21

has a long criminal history. Yeah,

23:23

and I think it's just kind

23:25

of... hard to believe that anyone

23:28

would be privy to so much

23:30

pivotal information on so many cases

23:32

within a short time frame. You

23:34

mentioned how she might have been

23:36

motivated by trying to help out

23:39

her son. Did she receive any

23:41

kind of rewards in any of

23:43

these other cases or was it

23:45

just solely in the case against

23:47

a forest? We could only uncover

23:50

evidence of a reward in the

23:52

case against a forest, but you

23:54

have to remember rewards, cash rewards,

23:56

paid out to witnesses in cases

23:58

are not the norm. You know,

24:01

oftentimes there's a crime stoppers reward

24:03

that will be offered if somebody's

24:05

arrested, but a cash reward paid

24:07

by the state. upon conviction is

24:09

kind of unusual. And so, you

24:12

know, it wasn't really surprising that

24:14

we didn't find any other rewards.

24:16

We did find other secret reward

24:18

payments made to witnesses in other

24:20

cases around the same time authorized

24:23

out of the same DA's office.

24:25

And we cover that in the

24:27

podcast, but none to Violet Ellison

24:29

that we could find. This is

24:31

a case with very real stakes,

24:34

right? There's a man who is

24:36

still on death row to this

24:38

day, and for him, it's life

24:40

and death. And that's obviously very

24:42

important as well to all his

24:45

family and loved ones who, you

24:47

know, have been living with him

24:49

on the inside for all these

24:51

years. And this is something you

24:53

talk about in ear witnesses well,

24:56

but Deforest kids have been very

24:58

strong advocates for his release. Can

25:00

you share a little bit more

25:02

about the work that they're doing?

25:04

Yeah, there's such an incredible family

25:07

and you know, it's not just

25:09

his kids, it's also his mom,

25:11

Donna, he has all these aunts

25:13

and uncles and cousins that he's

25:15

in contact with, you know, will

25:18

send him letters and talk to

25:20

him on the phone and occasionally

25:22

visit him at home in prison.

25:24

But his five kids are so

25:26

dedicated to him and to advocating

25:29

for him, they show up at

25:31

all the events. Many of them

25:33

are doing interviews with the media

25:35

and two of them are now

25:37

posting regularly on social media. Instagram

25:40

and TikTok, his daughter Muffin, who's

25:42

a teacher and his son Robbie.

25:44

They both have very active social

25:46

media channels, not just advocating for

25:49

their father's innocence, but really just

25:51

talking about him as a person,

25:53

who he is. what they love

25:55

about him, how they stay in

25:57

contact. Their stories have been amplified

26:00

by celebrities like Kim Kardashian, so

26:02

it's been really great to see

26:04

their stories and their message. about

26:06

their father reach new people since

26:08

the podcast came out. They have

26:11

incredibly intimate relationships with him and

26:13

they all stay positive and strong

26:15

I think because Tiforist is that

26:17

way. And so, you know, it's

26:19

just they are such an incredibly

26:22

loving and hopeful family. that have

26:24

great faith that the truth will

26:26

prevail and it has been such

26:28

a privilege to get to know

26:30

all of them and to kind

26:33

of walk alongside them and be

26:35

witness to not just the ordeal

26:37

that they've gone through but how

26:39

they've really lifted each other up.

26:41

It's really been incredible to see.

26:44

Yeah, and that's something that obviously

26:46

comes with the territory of doing

26:48

any kind of deep dive reporting

26:50

that you did on your witness.

26:52

You're really having to get to

26:55

form these relations with the people

26:57

and I think that that's something

26:59

that is difficult, right? Because you're

27:01

also navigating this line between being

27:03

an objective journalist, of course, and

27:06

the supporting their fight for justice.

27:08

How is that process for you?

27:10

Well, I mentioned I didn't come

27:12

to this story, like... automatically believing

27:14

he was innocent. I certainly thought

27:17

it was possible because I had

27:19

covered another death row exoneration in

27:21

Alabama, Anthony Ray Hinton, who was

27:23

on Alabama's death row for 30

27:25

years for a crime he didn't

27:28

commit until he was eventually released

27:30

in 2015 when the evidence fell

27:32

apart. And the state still refuses

27:34

to compensate him or to admit

27:36

that he was wrongfully convicted, which

27:39

says a lot. especially considering that

27:41

the evidence fell apart. I don't

27:43

know what they're basing their strong

27:45

opinions on since there's no evidence.

27:47

But I think that my belief

27:50

into forest innocence is based on

27:52

the facts and what I've discovered

27:54

through my own reporting and investigating.

27:56

And I really felt an ethical

27:58

obligation to take a position in

28:01

this and to be completely transparent

28:03

about that. at the same time

28:05

I am a journalist and so

28:07

I have always been open to

28:09

hearing everyone's opinions on this and

28:12

any other theories including one that

28:14

could implicate to forest and you

28:16

know it's just not there no

28:18

one is running to the microphone

28:20

or picking up the phone to

28:23

call me with those stories because

28:25

they don't exist. So it hasn't

28:27

really been a hard call. I've

28:29

never taken a position on somebody's

28:31

guilt or innocence in any story

28:34

that I've covered, and I've been

28:36

a journalist for 25 years. But

28:38

I really felt like we got

28:40

to stand on the side of

28:42

truth here. And until I see

28:45

something new that tells me otherwise,

28:47

this man didn't do it. And

28:49

being a platform for his family

28:51

is the right thing to do.

28:53

Yeah, no, that definitely makes sense.

28:56

And I think it's difficult across

28:58

true crime media in order to

29:00

remain always objective and therefore never

29:02

take a side, but sometimes objectivity

29:04

means taking a side too, if

29:07

the facts are, you know, pointing

29:09

in a certain direction. So I

29:11

think that's really great, especially in

29:13

a case where the stakes are

29:15

literally life and death. You know,

29:18

that's a painful reality for him

29:20

and his family members. And there's

29:22

a very clear action here, which

29:24

is that hopefully he will be

29:27

exonerated. I think that's great that

29:29

you were able to kind of

29:31

take that stand throughout your witness.

29:33

Think what listeners I'm sure are

29:35

wondering too is just where is

29:38

this case stand today? What do

29:40

you kind of see as the

29:42

next steps for him in his

29:44

fight for justice? Obviously you put

29:46

out this great series, but he's

29:49

still incarcerated. What is next for

29:51

him? I know so many listeners

29:53

have... Said like what's the problem?

29:55

Why is he still there? What

29:57

is it going to take? I

30:00

think that You know, it's extraordinary

30:02

that the original prosecutor supports a

30:04

new trial and the current elected

30:06

district attorney in Jefferson County has

30:08

actually filed in court a call

30:11

for a new trial. He first

30:13

did it in 2020 and then

30:15

last year he renewed his call

30:17

for a new trial filing a

30:19

much more detailed report on the

30:22

many reasons that he has taken

30:24

this unusual step, how he arrived

30:26

to that position, what he did.

30:28

to get there. You know, it's

30:30

been four years since he

30:32

first came out and called

30:35

for a new trial and

30:37

unfortunately the attorney general in

30:40

Alabama represents the state in

30:42

this case and all capital cases

30:44

and he is taking the position

30:47

that when an elected DA

30:49

conducts a conviction integrity

30:51

review and finds the

30:53

foundation of the conviction has

30:56

disintegrated. That's what the DA

30:58

wrote in his latest

31:00

filing about this case.

31:02

The AG is basically

31:04

arguing the court's hands

31:06

are tied. There's nothing that can

31:09

be done. We have to go

31:11

forward with the execution anyway.

31:13

So he's still seeking

31:15

to force execution. That's

31:18

a really extraordinary thing

31:20

if you think about it, an

31:22

extraordinary position to take.

31:24

that this elected DA's

31:26

conviction integrity review that

31:28

finds the foundation of

31:30

the conviction has disintegrated

31:32

doesn't matter. So what

31:34

is the legal grounds

31:36

for them saying that their hands

31:38

are taught? Are they just saying

31:41

that we never overturn any conviction

31:43

or? I would love to see

31:45

any conviction that the Alabama's

31:47

Attorney General has overturned. The

31:50

arguments are fairly procedural. You

31:52

know, this is procedurally barred.

31:55

This isn't a legitimate legal

31:57

argument. It's essentially discrediting. the

32:00

word of this elected DA

32:02

and his conviction integrity review

32:04

and the word of the

32:06

original prosecutor. I mean, if

32:08

that doesn't count for something,

32:10

what does? But the attorney

32:12

general is arguing that it

32:14

doesn't, that it doesn't count,

32:16

that it's not evidence, that

32:18

it's a subjective opinion. And

32:20

you know, this is kind

32:22

of where the case stands

32:25

right now, this extraordinary moment

32:27

where you have... one person

32:29

in power who's an elected DA

32:31

who's saying this man's got to

32:33

have a new trial and another

32:35

person in power who's representing the

32:37

state saying, no, this man's got

32:40

to be executed. And a judge in

32:42

state court is going to have to

32:44

decide what to do and whether or

32:46

not to accept this position from

32:48

the attorney general that there's really

32:50

nothing that the courts can do

32:53

at this point. And is there

32:55

going to be a hearing on

32:57

that soon where a judge would

32:59

decide on that issue? So to

33:01

force attorneys have asked for a

33:03

hearing, that is like, you know,

33:05

currently being litigated. The state has

33:07

filed an answer and then they'll

33:09

file something else. You know how

33:11

that goes. The judge has not

33:13

said yet. She has not said

33:16

a hearing and has not said

33:18

that there will be an upcoming

33:20

hearing. So that really remains to be

33:22

seen. You know, just in general, what

33:24

are the kind of things, and

33:26

we always share some action items

33:28

at the end of our main

33:30

episode, and we did that in

33:32

this case, kind of also directed

33:34

towards Muffin and the work that

33:36

she's doing online to advocate, but

33:38

what kind of things have you

33:40

doing online to advocate, but what

33:42

kind of things have you heard

33:44

and what kinds of things where

33:46

you were directing earwitness listeners to

33:49

do? So what do you encourage

33:51

folks to do? I have really

33:53

left the advocacy part

33:55

up to Greater Birmingham

33:57

Ministries, which is an

34:00

organization here in Birmingham that has

34:02

kind of taken that lead role

34:04

in deciding what is going to

34:06

most benefit to forest in the

34:08

spot that he's in legally and

34:10

personally and they have you know

34:12

a website set up they have

34:14

a listserv that people can sign

34:16

up for. There are events and

34:18

they send emails out to people

34:20

that sign up on the listserv

34:22

about events. There was a prayer

34:24

vigil and walk that was surrounding

34:26

the unveiling of a billboard here

34:29

in Birmingham a couple months ago.

34:31

So there's things like that. people

34:33

really want to do more and

34:35

so I wish that there was

34:37

more that I could offer them

34:39

but he's got very good lawyers

34:41

and a legal team on his

34:43

side it's just frustrating I think

34:45

for those of us who aren't

34:47

lawyers I mean it's frustrating for

34:49

his legal team from what I

34:51

can tell but I think for

34:53

those of us that don't sort

34:55

of know all the ends and

34:57

outs of how this post conviction

35:00

litigation works it just seems ridiculous

35:02

it's like people are like, can

35:04

we write letters? Can we go

35:06

do a demonstration outside the prison?

35:08

And you know, I just tell

35:10

them to go to the Greater

35:12

Birmingham Industries website and that's really

35:14

all I can offer. I do

35:16

go to these events and do

35:18

a lot of speaking about his

35:20

case just to raise awareness about

35:22

it. But it's frustrating. That's why

35:24

we called the final episode of

35:26

the series in bondage to the

35:29

law. because it feels that way,

35:31

that we have this structure that

35:33

justice is supposed to happen inside,

35:35

but you know, oftentimes it falls

35:37

short and it certainly has in

35:39

this case. And so we just

35:41

have a long way to go

35:43

in our criminal justice system and

35:45

as evidenced by this man still

35:47

sitting on death row 25 years

35:49

later. And almost everybody who has

35:51

looked at this case outside the

35:53

Attorney General's office. Thanks he didn't.

35:55

do it. Right and I think

35:58

just in general too for folks

36:00

to be able to go listen

36:02

obviously to the true crime episode

36:04

listen to your witness sending that

36:06

to family and friends starting conversations

36:08

about it you know at least

36:10

to raise the awareness of this

36:12

case I think a lot of

36:14

times these sorts of stories are

36:16

happening all over the country and

36:18

they kind of fly under the

36:20

radar because, you know, there's not

36:22

as much attention paid to folks

36:24

once they're incarcerated or once the

36:27

gavel falls and a conviction is

36:29

set and a sentence goes through.

36:31

So I think to raise some

36:33

visibility for this case is also

36:35

a super important thing that today's

36:37

listeners could participate in. You spent

36:39

so many years working and reporting

36:41

on Teforce case, but you're a

36:43

journalist with a ton of experience.

36:45

You've reported on many other cases

36:47

in Alabama. What has all of

36:49

that... experience taught you about systemic

36:51

issues in the justice system and

36:53

what changes you feel are the

36:56

most urgent. Yeah, I mean, so

36:58

many changes are needed. It's hard

37:00

to know where to start. Outside,

37:02

individual injustices like this one, I

37:04

think we really have a human

37:06

rights crisis in our jails and

37:08

prisons right now, not just in

37:10

Alabama, but all over the United

37:12

States, but Alabama is particularly bad,

37:14

maybe the worst. We have just

37:16

incarcerated far too many people for

37:18

too long. And I think as

37:20

a nation, we have not fully

37:22

admitted that. You know, we really

37:25

have to rethink the lengths of

37:27

sentences. and try to get in

37:29

line with the rest of the

37:31

civilized world. You know, the rest

37:33

of the world doesn't send people

37:35

to prison with terminal sentences. They

37:37

don't sentence children to life without

37:39

parole. You know, it's just insane

37:41

the amount of time that people

37:43

are getting still in courts across

37:45

the United States. And so I

37:47

think we have to really rethink

37:49

what all this is for. And

37:51

instead of just... being comfortable reforming

37:54

policies that affect people convicted of

37:56

nonviolent offenses or drug offenses, we

37:58

really need to think of reforming

38:00

the system for everybody. I mean,

38:02

not just somebody who's in for

38:04

drug possession, but somebody who's committed

38:06

murder. Everybody is worthy of redemption.

38:08

Everybody is worthy of second chances

38:10

no matter what they did and

38:12

everybody is certainly entitled to be

38:14

treated like a human being with

38:16

dignity and respect and we're not

38:18

doing that. definitely. It's something that

38:20

I feel like obviously sticks out

38:23

to me across the cases that

38:25

we've covered on to her crime.

38:27

The mass incarceration of so many

38:29

people and then also I do

38:31

like how you point out it's

38:33

not just about drug offenses or

38:35

offenses where we feel like it's

38:37

easier to have empathy for folks.

38:39

Like what does a reimagine system

38:41

look like where we we take

38:43

the most heinous crimes that someone

38:45

may have actually committed and consider

38:47

how do we actually rehabilitate those

38:49

people or allow them an opportunity

38:52

at a second chance? And a

38:54

lot of people if you start

38:56

talking about this they will say

38:58

oh well you don't want to

39:00

hold people accountable you want people

39:02

to just get away with these

39:04

things we're not holding people accountable

39:06

right now we're abusing them we

39:08

are putting them in a harm

39:10

machine and it's not just harming

39:12

incarcerated people it's harming every person

39:14

in that prison I talked to

39:16

correctional officers, you know, prison nurses,

39:18

social workers, anybody who's going in

39:21

and out of the prison, they're

39:23

all traumatized. It's awful. It is

39:25

terrible the way we are treating

39:27

people. And these environments are criminal

39:29

in and of themselves. I mean,

39:31

there's drugs throughout the system. It's

39:33

just a system and collapse. It

39:35

can't be supported. And we need

39:37

to just... admit that I think

39:39

that this is a failed enterprise.

39:41

We need to start over. We've

39:43

got to reimagine this instead of

39:45

just expanding it because expanding it

39:47

is what we've done the last

39:50

30 years and look where we

39:52

are. It makes me think of

39:54

a quote from an activist where

39:56

I really admire her name is

39:58

Miriam Kaba and she said once

40:00

like Nobody enters violence for the

40:02

first time having committed it. And

40:04

I think about that in relation

40:06

to US prisons, which as you

40:08

mentioned, are traumatizing environments for everyone

40:10

involved. And I just imagine most

40:12

people, the majority, the large majority

40:14

of people who enter prison will

40:16

one day exit prison, right? So

40:19

in those instances, you know, if

40:21

they have these extremely long sentences

40:23

where the environment is so traumatizing,

40:25

what does that mean for recidivism

40:27

rates for the crimes that they

40:29

might commit once they return, especially

40:31

if they're not set up for

40:33

a six? as you know, most

40:35

folks aren't in many states. And

40:37

so, you know, just kind of

40:39

thinking about that whole picture, and

40:41

it's not about, like you said,

40:43

a lack of accountability, but what

40:45

is the world we want to

40:48

live in, and what's a system

40:50

that maybe could get us a

40:52

little bit closer to that. Yeah,

40:54

and I just failed to see

40:56

how putting people in a system

40:58

awash in drugs and weapons is

41:00

getting justice for victims. I mean,

41:02

victims, what they want, study show

41:04

is that... whoever harmed them will

41:06

not harm someone again. And if

41:08

you put somebody in that kind

41:10

of environment, you know, it's not

41:12

like they're going to be less

41:14

likely to harm. You know, if

41:17

they're already drug addicted and then

41:19

you send them into a prison

41:21

system that's full of drugs, they're

41:23

going to keep using and probably

41:25

start using some things they weren't

41:27

using on the street. You know,

41:29

extortion is a huge problem in

41:31

the Alabama prison system where... People

41:33

are getting hooked on drugs, they're

41:35

getting preyed upon as soon as

41:37

they come into the system, and

41:39

then their families will start getting

41:41

extorted from people inside the prison,

41:43

calling and demanding them to send

41:46

money or they will kill their

41:48

loved one. And it's just epidemic.

41:50

That doesn't help victims. That's not

41:52

justice. I don't buy into any

41:54

of that. What we are doing

41:56

is not accountability. And we have

41:58

to be accountable for that. Right,

42:00

definitely. And all of this knowledge

42:02

that you kind of have shared

42:04

with us, especially about what should

42:06

the system look like, what are

42:08

the issues in our current system,

42:10

were all things that you've gained

42:12

through reporting for many years on

42:15

all these different types of cases,

42:17

and particularly in Alabama. And one

42:19

thing I really admire about your

42:21

reporting is just how you make

42:23

complex information really accessible to the

42:25

everyday person. So that's something I

42:27

loved about your witness as well

42:29

as you could tell this really

42:31

important story in a format that

42:33

you know makes sense to people

42:35

and they can understand the nuances

42:37

of this case. So how can

42:39

folks follow you and find you

42:41

and like hear the rest of

42:44

your other reporting in other cases

42:46

that you're kind of covering? Where

42:48

should they go? I appreciate you

42:50

asking. And I just report at

42:52

the intersection of justice and injustice

42:54

in Alabama, so I cover everything

42:56

from what I've mentioned, the crisis

42:58

in our prison system, to mental

43:00

health care, to the habitual offender

43:02

law in Alabama, our three strikes

43:04

law that is the most draconian

43:06

in the nation. I've done extensive

43:08

reporting on that. And then I

43:10

also publish in... all kinds of

43:13

places so you can Google my

43:15

name or I have a landing

43:17

page Beth shelburne.com where I post

43:19

stuff when I remember too. I'm

43:21

kind of all over the place

43:23

but yeah that's my beat. Alabama

43:25

criminal justice so there's no shortage

43:27

of stories unfortunately. I really appreciate

43:29

you coming on today and sharing

43:31

a little bit more insight into

43:33

your process with your witness and

43:35

some of these other you know

43:37

you know just details of this

43:39

case that we didn't get to

43:42

go into in the true or

43:44

crime episode you know we'll of

43:46

course hope that all of you

43:48

who are listening will go take

43:50

a listen share on your social

43:52

media and write a review for

43:54

your witness as well kind of

43:56

support that story so it gets

43:58

out there to more folks but

44:00

thanks so much Beth we really

44:02

appreciate it thank you for having

44:04

me of course she's done on

44:06

ear witness. If you haven't listened

44:08

to it yet, you need to.

44:11

It's a master class in investigative

44:13

reporting and one of the most

44:15

compelling true crime podcasts out there.

44:17

If you want to stay updated

44:19

on to Forrest's case, please make

44:21

sure you check out his website

44:23

at to Forrest johnson.com. And as

44:25

always, you can keep up with

44:27

Truer Crime on Instagram and X

44:29

at Truer Crime pod and you

44:31

can find me on Instagram and

44:33

Tik-Tik-Tak at slessle-at-sak.com.com. Thanks for listening.

44:35

Hi, I'm Grace, host of Red

44:37

Rum True Crime podcast. These cases

44:40

focus on the true victims of

44:42

crime. Why not jump in at

44:44

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44:46

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44:48

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44:54

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44:58

has this completely... inappropriate laughing and

45:00

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45:02

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45:04

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45:09

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