0:02

A survey asked voters to grade

0:04

President Trump's first 100 days in office.

0:06

Some gave him an A, while

0:08

the most common grade was F. What

0:10

is working for the president, and how

0:12

do some voters think he's falling short?

0:14

I'm Steve Inskeep with Amartinus, and this

0:16

is Up First from NPR News. The

0:21

president campaigned on a promise of

0:23

retribution and also blurred what he

0:25

meant by that. 100 days in,

0:27

NPR has a list of people

0:29

and institutions the president has targeted

0:31

using government power. Also the U .S.

0:33

has deported or detained college students

0:36

who advocated for Palestinians. NPR visited

0:38

one in detention. I want the

0:40

American people to see this too.

0:42

To see this level of injustice.

0:45

Stay with us. We've got all the news you need to start your day.

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2:02

Now, if that brought back feelings of

2:04

anxiety from when you were in school,

2:06

relax. You are not being graded, but

2:08

the president is. More than 1 ,400

2:10

respondents to an NPR, PBS News' Marist

2:12

poll sent in their grades for President

2:14

Trump's first 100 days, and the most

2:16

common grade submitted for the president is

2:18

F. 45 % gave him the failing mark.

2:20

About a quarter of voters gave Trump

2:22

an A. Let's hear now from senior

2:24

political editor and correspondent, Domenico Montanaro, who's

2:26

been analyzing the numbers, Domenico. So no

2:28

one likes an F. I am very

2:30

familiar with that grade, by the way,

2:32

for my high school years. I don't

2:34

believe you. It's true. But so, I

2:36

mean, why did so many respondents give

2:38

him an F? Well, it really looks

2:40

like it has a lot to do

2:42

with tariffs and the economy and just

2:44

39 % approve of how he's handling

2:46

the economy. That's his lowest mark ever

2:49

for that, including for his first term, an

2:51

even lower 34 % approve of

2:53

his tariffs, almost six in 10.

2:55

say Trump's tariffs on imports will

2:58

hurt the economy. The percentage of

3:00

people expecting prices to increase is up seven

3:02

points from last month. Well, that's pretty

3:04

damning. I mean, the economy is the most

3:06

important issue for most voters, I would

3:08

assume. Yeah, I mean, across all

3:10

age groups, you know, whether it's men

3:12

or women, the economy inflation that comes

3:14

up over and over again, it was

3:16

certainly the biggest issue in the 2024

3:18

election. And arguably, there was no bigger

3:20

reason that Trump won than his promises

3:22

to bring prices down. But the bottom

3:24

line here is that people are sending

3:26

a very clear message. They largely think

3:28

these tariffs are a bad idea. Okay,

3:30

now this disapproval of the president can't

3:32

be just about the economy. Yeah, that's

3:34

true. I mean, the majority is disapproved

3:36

of how he's handling most aspects of

3:38

his job, actually, from tariffs on the

3:40

economy to foreign policy and immigration, which,

3:42

by the way, had been a relative

3:44

strength for Trump. Overall, Trump is down

3:46

to just a 42 % approval rating. That's

3:48

second only to himself in 2017 for

3:50

the worst score for any president at

3:52

the 100 -day mark, if you look

3:54

at the numbers that Gallup has put

3:56

together since Harry Truman. Things can change.

3:58

Some presidents who were very high at

4:00

the 100 point mark went down. Others

4:03

like Bill Clinton, who was only at about

4:05

45 % at 100 days left office with a

4:07

very high approval rating. So we'll see what happens,

4:10

but we're in very polarized times. I don't

4:12

expect much to change people's minds. Trump's base, for

4:14

example, remains very much intact and is giving

4:16

him a long leash on things like tariffs because

4:18

they believe in the long run, they'll be

4:20

good for the economy. All right, let's get into

4:22

the sweeping changes Trump's tried to make to

4:24

the government and Elon Musk, who's led the charge

4:27

on that front. What do people think about

4:29

that? Yeah, none of that is

4:31

really popular either. Six in 10 say that

4:33

they think that Trump is rushing to

4:35

make changes. That's up five points from last

4:37

month. About four in 10, though, mostly

4:39

Republicans think he's doing what needs to be

4:41

done. Still, overwhelmingly, the majority

4:43

of Americans, 85%, think that Trump should

4:45

follow court orders even once he

4:48

doesn't like. Think about things like his

4:50

deportations and government restructuring through Doge,

4:52

that department of government efficiency that Musk

4:54

has been heading up. As for

4:56

Doge and Musk themselves, both are also

4:58

increasingly unpopular. Just 34 % have a

5:01

favorable view of Musk. That's down

5:03

five points from last month. In Trump's

5:05

first 100 days, Musk was at

5:07

Trump's side a lot. But I think

5:09

that buddy movie A might be

5:11

coming to an end soon. Not only

5:13

is Musk unpopular, but his time

5:16

as an informal government advisor is up

5:18

at the end of next month.

5:20

And Musk himself has said that he's

5:22

going to be spending less time

5:24

on Doge, given the 71 % drop

5:26

in profits at his company. That's NPR's

5:29

Domenico Montanaro. Thanks a lot. You're

5:31

welcome. The

5:36

president campaigned for office promising retribution

5:39

during that campaign critics and supporters

5:41

alike warned that it's wrong for

5:43

president to go after people he

5:45

doesn't like so Trump downplayed his

5:47

promise saying his retribution would merely

5:49

be success now Trump is president

5:51

in his first 100 days the

5:54

president has ordered the US government

5:56

to target his personal political opponents

5:58

as well as law firms universities

6:00

and others an NPR analysis finds

6:02

Trump has taken action against more

6:04

than 100 people in NPR

6:06

investigative correspondent Tom Drysbach compiled that

6:08

list as with us. Good morning,

6:10

Tom. Good morning, Steve. Who exactly

6:12

is Trump targeting? Yeah, it's a

6:14

really wide spectrum of people and

6:16

institutions that Trump has gone after.

6:18

It includes lawyers and law firms,

6:20

often with ties to Democrats, political

6:23

opponents, people who worked on

6:25

investigations into Trump or the

6:27

January 6th rioters, media companies,

6:29

universities, and then also

6:31

people who actually worked in the

6:33

first Trump administration but who Trump

6:35

considers disloyal. And when we say

6:37

targeted, what kinds of actions are

6:40

involved here? So at maybe

6:42

the harshest end are these criminal

6:44

investigations, and Trump has actually ordered

6:46

multiple Justice Department investigations right from

6:48

the Oval Office. One of those

6:50

investigations targets Christopher Krebs. He was

6:52

a top cybersecurity official in the

6:54

first Trump administration. Trump

6:56

fired him back then for saying the

6:58

2020 election was safe and secure. And

7:00

here is what Trump said about Krebs

7:03

earlier this month. He's the broad. He's a

7:05

disgrace. So we'll find out whether or

7:07

not it was a safe election. And

7:09

if it wasn't, he's got a big

7:11

price to pay. Then there's Miles Taylor, who

7:13

also served in the first Trump administration. Back

7:16

then, Taylor wrote this anonymous op -ed that

7:18

said Trump was erratic and dangerous. Here

7:20

is what Trump said about him. I think

7:22

he's guilty of treason, if you want

7:24

to know the truth. But we'll find out.

7:27

And I assume we're recommending this to

7:29

the Department of Justice. So

7:31

Trump was not just ordering an

7:33

investigation into Taylor, he was also

7:35

effectively telling the investigators what he thought

7:38

the outcome should be. Both Krebs

7:40

and Taylor say they are being

7:42

retaliated against for telling the truth.

7:44

It's striking to think about this,

7:46

Tom, because Trump, of course, accused

7:48

President Biden of using the Justice

7:50

Department against him. Lawfare is what Republicans

7:52

called it. He said that was

7:54

wrong. Biden denied he was doing any

7:56

such thing. Trump is openly doing

7:58

that, openly doing the thing that he

8:00

said was wrong. So what other

8:02

government powers is he using? Well, we

8:04

found the administration using more than

8:06

10 different agencies in various ways, not

8:08

just the Justice Department, which we

8:10

should say is also announcing criminal investigations

8:12

into the Democratic governor and attorney

8:15

general of New Jersey over immigration policy.

8:17

Trump has also pulled secret service

8:19

protection for two of President Biden's children,

8:21

Hunter and Ashley. Media companies that

8:23

Trump dislikes are facing investigations from the

8:25

FCC. That includes NPR, we should

8:27

say. Universities are facing investigations

8:29

from the Department of Education. International students

8:31

who protested the war in Gaza. have

8:33

also faced iced attention and deportation. Well,

8:35

what does the administration say about this?

8:37

Well, they didn't respond to our request

8:39

for comment for this story. And on

8:41

the one hand, the White House says

8:43

that Trump is ending what they call

8:45

the weaponization of government, which you just

8:47

mentioned. And when they're pressed on this

8:50

issue, though, and the fact that Trump

8:52

is actually directing specific criminal investigations from

8:54

the Oval Office, well, they say their

8:56

investigations are merited and it's about accountability.

8:58

What do the people targeted by the

9:00

power of the presidency have to say?

9:02

Well, some are very confident that Trump's

9:04

actions are unconstitutional and they won't hold

9:06

up in court. In the cases of

9:08

the law firms, for example, judges have

9:10

actually blocked parts of the orders for

9:12

violating the Constitution. One judge said it

9:14

was a, quote, shocking abuse of power

9:17

from the administration. But even the

9:19

process of investigation can be stressful and

9:21

scary. Law firms are losing clients. People have

9:23

lost jobs. And multiple sources said they

9:25

could not talk with us because speaking out

9:27

just puts a bigger target on your

9:29

back. NPR's Tom Drys... is speaking about what

9:31

he found in the facts of his

9:34

reporting. Thanks so much. Thanks, Steve. In

9:43

recent months, the Trump administration has locked

9:45

up and tried to deport multiple students

9:48

who advocated on behalf of Palestinian rights

9:50

the midst of the Israel Hamas War.

9:52

Our co -host, Lady Fadal, is in

9:54

Vermont where she became the first journalist

9:56

to meet with any of the students

9:58

in the facilities where they are held. She's

10:01

talked with Columbia University student

10:03

Mohsen Madaoui in the Northwest State

10:05

Correctional Facility in St. Albans,

10:07

Vermont. Madaoui is a green

10:09

card holder, a permanent resident,

10:11

detained at what he thought would

10:13

be his naturalization interview for

10:15

citizenship. Leila joins us now from

10:18

our member station, Vermont Public. Leila

10:20

Madaoui is a student at Columbia. Why

10:22

was he in Vermont? Well,

10:24

hey, this is where he lives, where

10:26

he calls home. And I sat down with

10:28

him in the state prison where he's

10:30

being held since there are no immigration detention

10:32

centers here. And the first thing I

10:34

asked when he walked into the room where

10:36

I was waiting was, how are you? I

10:38

am centered. Internally, I am

10:40

at peace, while I

10:42

still know deeply that this is a

10:45

level of injustice that I am

10:47

facing. I have faith. I

10:49

have faith that justice will

10:51

prevail. And when he says

10:53

justice, he means his release and

10:55

his ability to stay in this country.

10:57

His lawyers filed a petition in

10:59

federal court here in Vermont accusing government

11:01

officials of violating his First Amendment

11:03

right to free speech and due process

11:05

in what they argue is a

11:08

policy by these officials to silence Palestinian

11:10

rights advocates. Did he tell you

11:12

about the day he was detained? Yeah,

11:14

I mean, it was kind of

11:16

a roller coaster. mean, he's lived here

11:18

for 10 years, and he was

11:20

on track to graduate next month with

11:22

a bachelor's from Columbia. And he

11:24

went to this meeting thinking he would

11:26

finally become an American citizen. After

11:28

growing up in a Palestinian refugee camp

11:30

in the Israeli -occupied West Bank, he

11:32

says he only understood the concept

11:34

of freedom of movement or freedom of

11:36

speech without retaliation from living here.

11:38

But because he had watched the experiences

11:40

of other students, he knew there

11:42

was a risk. I see. the risk,

11:45

I see the opportunity, and

11:47

I want the American people to

11:49

see this too. To see what?

11:52

To see this level

11:54

of injustice, that

11:56

I am doing everything legally, that

11:59

I have prepared and

12:02

studied for the Constitution,

12:04

and that I went

12:06

willingly and respected the

12:08

law. And despite that, he

12:10

says he's in prison, although the government

12:12

wasn't able to move him to Louisiana like

12:14

other students, at least not yet, because

12:16

of an injunction a judge granted here. And

12:18

what is the government saying about why

12:20

they wanted to deport him? Now, he's not

12:23

charged with a crime, but as with

12:25

most of these students, the government is invoking

12:27

a rarely used immigration act. Court filings say

12:29

his presence has, quote, adverse consequences

12:31

for foreign policy. In this

12:33

case, they say his presence would

12:35

undermine the Middle East peace

12:37

process and a policy to combat

12:39

anti -Semitism. A letter for

12:41

the Secretary of State was the only

12:43

evidence the government submitted this week as

12:45

proof of this. It did not elaborate

12:48

on how his presence supposedly undermines Middle

12:50

East peace or how he's supposed fueled

12:52

anti -Semitism. And what have his lawyer said?

12:55

One of his lawyers, Luna Druby, says

12:57

the accusations are completely false and the

12:59

government is, quote, scraping the bottom of

13:01

the barrel to punish students for the

13:03

advocacy of Palestinian rights. Mahdawi

13:05

has been very vocal about his opposition

13:08

to anti -Semitism and is part of peace

13:10

initiatives with Israeli and Jewish students. Tomorrow,

13:12

the federal court here in Vermont will

13:14

hear Mahdawi's request for immediate release as this

13:17

case continues. That's MPR's Layla Fadal. Layla,

13:19

looking forward to hearing more of this on

13:21

Morning Edition. Thanks a lot. Thanks,

13:23

ACUNDC. Mark

13:32

Carney has been elected as Prime

13:34

Minister of Canada according to the projections

13:36

from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. This

13:38

was seen as a referendum on

13:40

which candidate could best handle the

13:42

United States under President Trump, who

13:45

placed tariffs on Canada and sparked

13:47

a wave of Canadian nationalism. Politif's

13:53

momentum began to slip when former

13:55

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau resigned earlier this

13:58

year, which gave the Liberals a

14:00

lift. But the real boost came when

14:02

President Trump began targeting Canada's economy

14:04

and its sovereignty. Many Canadians

14:06

were outraged by Trump's threat to

14:08

make Canada the 51st state. And

14:15

that's a first for Tuesday, April

14:17

29th. I'm Steve Enskeep. There's an easy

14:19

way to stay connected to news

14:21

and podcasts from the NPR network. It

14:23

is the NPR app. You

14:25

can hear community coverage from your local station,

14:27

stories from around the world, and podcast

14:29

suggestions based on what you like. Download the

14:31

NPR app. Wherever it is, you download

14:33

apps. And we got one more thing for

14:35

you today. Because you listen up first,

14:38

we're pretty sure you're the curious type. And

14:40

since our friends at NPR Science Podcast

14:42

Shortwave are some of the most curious people

14:44

we know, we think you would love

14:46

to listen to them. They bring you new

14:48

discoveries, everyday mysteries, and the science behind

14:50

the headlines in under 15 minutes. Here's a

14:52

great example, the risks and rewards of

14:54

giving your kids melatonin. This is such a

14:57

great podcast. You're

14:59

listening to Shortwave

15:01

from NPR. Hey,

15:03

shore waivers, Emily Kwong here. Okay,

15:06

so possibly my favorite thing in

15:08

the entire world is a good night's

15:10

sleep. I mean, nothing makes

15:12

a bigger difference to my mental and

15:14

physical health. Without quality sleep or less

15:16

productive, grumpy, it can even

15:19

affect our hearts. And for kids,

15:21

sleep is crucial for physical,

15:23

mental, and emotional development. But

15:25

there are a lot of

15:27

things keeping us awake these days,

15:29

screens, electronics, stress.

15:33

Researchers say that, like adults,

15:36

kids are having problems falling asleep

15:38

and staying asleep. So

15:40

more and more parents are turning to

15:42

a supplement called melatonin as a

15:44

possible solution. It's like so many parents

15:46

dream, which is like, is this

15:48

the answer? Is there this one gummy

15:50

or this one thing that can

15:52

help me get through this part of

15:54

the day that can be really,

15:56

really hard for parents and families? Michael

15:58

Shulson is a contributing editor at

16:00

Undark Magazine, where he writes and edits

16:02

stories about science. And

16:04

he recently looked into why more and

16:07

more people are using sleep supplements, especially

16:09

with their kids. Melatonin

16:11

is a hormone, and

16:13

it's one that our bodies produce naturally.

16:15

It's part of the way that

16:18

the body regulates its sleep cycles and

16:20

gets you to work bedtime. Every

16:22

night, the pineal gland in our brain

16:24

releases a bit of melatonin. So

16:26

when people take synthetic melatonin in the

16:28

form of a pill or a

16:30

gummy, it also can have that experience

16:32

of helping people feel a little

16:34

bit more tired, a little bit sleepy

16:36

in ways that a lot of

16:38

people find helpful for getting to sleep.

16:40

Melatonin is widely considered safe for

16:42

adults in low doses and for kids

16:44

with certain neurological and neurodevelopmental conditions

16:46

that get in the way of a

16:48

good night's sleep. I think it's

16:50

really important to understand that when families

16:52

are seeking to help their children

16:54

get a better night's sleep, it's not

16:56

just like an abstract health goal

16:58

that they're trying to solve. They're

17:01

often really speaking into very real

17:03

challenges and very real problems that

17:05

are affecting all parts of a

17:07

family and are also really affecting

17:09

their kids flourishing. But some experts

17:11

worry that we don't know enough

17:13

about how regularly taking melatonin affects

17:15

kids in the long term. Saturday

17:20

on the show, melatonin and

17:22

kids. What the research says,

17:24

how melatonin is being used, and

17:26

how to navigate obstacles for getting

17:28

kids enough Cs. I'm Emily Kwong

17:30

and you're listening to Shortwave, the

17:33

science podcast from NPR. Okay,

17:49

so Michael, we are talking today

17:51

about melatonin. It is a hormone that

17:53

the human body naturally produces, but

17:55

I want to hear more about the

17:57

history of this supplement. This is

18:00

synthetic melatonin that a lot of people

18:02

have started taking and some people

18:04

are giving it to their kids. When

18:06

did people start taking melatonin? So

18:08

you really start to see an

18:10

uptick in people taking melatonin in the

18:12

1990s and there's this funny way

18:15

in which you both have a lot

18:17

of marketing and interest in it

18:19

and research sort of coming and saying

18:21

it. And at the same time,

18:23

you have this moment when supplements are

18:25

being deregulated in the United States,

18:27

meaning Congress has gotten together and said,

18:29

we're going to put a lot

18:32

fewer restrictions on supplements and make it

18:34

easier to sell things and make

18:36

claims. You could find these articles

18:38

where people are like, whoa, melatonin is the

18:40

new hot thing. What do we make of

18:42

it? And there's anxiety

18:44

around that. And there's excitement

18:47

around that. And it begins

18:49

to be more widely used. And

18:51

that's mostly for adults. When

18:53

did children start to use melatonin?

18:55

So a lot of the

18:57

early news coverage or advertisements have

19:00

something that says it's not

19:02

for children. And then

19:04

starting in the 2000s. that kind

19:06

of like the age floor begins

19:08

to drop in this really interesting

19:10

way. By the late 2000s, you

19:12

start to see some news reports

19:14

of parents using it. You start

19:16

to see articles that are saying,

19:18

well, maybe for like kids older

19:20

than 10, this makes sense, but

19:22

not for really small kids. And

19:24

over time, that just kind of

19:26

gets gradually lower and lower and

19:28

lower. And even then, it's especially

19:30

in the last few years that

19:32

it seems to be that clinicians

19:34

are reporting a real

19:36

uptick in use. Yeah. A

19:39

lot of melatonin packaging is just

19:41

very friendly looking. I mean, it's

19:43

like these big bottles and the

19:45

melatonin supplements come in sometimes very

19:47

yummy flavors. Sometimes they're gummies. So

19:50

is it really being marketed to kids

19:52

in a very deliberate way? I

19:55

would say it's being marketed to

19:57

parents in a very deliberate way. Yes.

19:59

And it's the bottles. It's a

20:01

lot the language around saying melatonin is

20:03

Safe and drug -free and non habit

20:05

forming right these are all terms

20:07

that you hear coming up again and

20:10

again in this marketing Yeah, and

20:12

I want to add here a key

20:14

distinction you make throughout this reporting

20:16

is that melatonin is not a vitamin

20:18

It is a hormone. Why is

20:20

that distinction so important? So melatonin falls

20:22

into this really weird in -between space

20:24

right where I think it's regulated

20:26

as a supplement and a lot of

20:29

people think about it as being

20:31

a Harbless and and natural and it's

20:33

also something that's a prescription drug

20:35

in a lot of the world Right

20:37

and is very much a drug

20:39

and I think there's like legally it

20:41

is not a drug Legally it

20:43

is classed as oh as a supplement

20:45

and so it's legal to say

20:48

that it's not a drug But I

20:50

think that that can create this

20:52

weird thing where people think about it

20:54

as being Maybe a little different

20:56

than what how researchers and physicians describe

20:58

it, which is they're like It's

21:01

a hormone. It's a hormone you take

21:03

in order to change something in your

21:05

sort of create a change in your

21:07

body. And in

21:09

that sense, it certainly, even if it

21:11

is not legally a drug, it

21:14

certainly is kind of being used like

21:16

a drug and is acting like

21:18

a drug. Yeah. Let's talk

21:20

about the research. So obviously there's

21:22

not enough. But for what is

21:24

available, what do sleep

21:26

scientists have to say about kids taking melatonin?

21:30

Sure. So as you just said, one thing

21:32

they always say is there's not enough,

21:34

which people say in almost every field it

21:36

feels like. It's true. We don't really

21:38

know. We'd love to know more. But I

21:40

think that this really is an area

21:42

where, and this is something I heard again

21:44

and again in interviews where there is

21:47

a sense that there is very little research,

21:49

especially on long -term effects of melatonin. There's

21:53

kind of two ways to break down. what

21:56

the science says, right? What does the

21:58

science say about whether it works? And

22:01

then what does the science say about whether

22:03

it's safe? And in

22:06

both cases, there's some uncertainty. In

22:08

terms of what the science

22:10

says about whether it works, the

22:13

evidence that exists definitely suggests that,

22:15

yes, it can help kids fall

22:17

asleep a little bit earlier. Maybe

22:19

not dramatically earlier, but something kind

22:21

of on the order of around

22:23

20 minutes. maybe a little bit

22:25

more on average. And of

22:27

course that tracks with a lot

22:29

of anecdotal evidence from parents who say,

22:31

it works, it helps. But

22:34

there's also a question of whether

22:36

children are actually better rested the

22:38

next day. And there,

22:40

again, there's actually some limited

22:42

evidence. There's not really that

22:44

much evidence either way showing

22:47

that children are actually better

22:49

rested when they have taken

22:51

melatonin versus they have not.

22:53

Now, melatonin is considered fairly

22:55

safe and benign in terms

22:57

of overdose potential. But

22:59

if there are side effects to melatonin,

23:01

what are they? This is, again, like

23:04

such a big question to unpack, right?

23:06

But there are reasons to say, okay,

23:08

it's fairly safe. I want to be

23:10

careful not to generalize that. But one

23:12

of the big questions is about short

23:14

-term and long -term side effects. In

23:16

terms of short -term side effects, they

23:18

could definitely be there. The ones that

23:21

are typically recorded in the scientific research

23:23

tend to be pretty mild. But

23:25

some researchers feel like that research hasn't

23:27

been that comprehensive or rigorous and that

23:29

it's possible that there are kind of

23:31

immediate or short -term side effects that

23:33

people just haven't really done a good

23:35

job of tracking. And then in

23:37

terms of the long -term effects, of

23:39

children who are taking melatonin maybe

23:42

four or five or six or

23:44

seven times a week for years

23:46

on end. That's a

23:48

really big open question. And

23:50

I think some scientists look at

23:52

that evidence and say, we see

23:54

that it's helpful for families. We

23:57

don't see obvious signs of concern.

24:00

And again, it can be really helpful

24:02

for people. And it's worth doing. It's

24:04

worth, you know, in many cases, it's

24:06

still worthwhile. And then

24:08

I think there are a lot of researchers who

24:10

look at this and say, based on that unknown,

24:12

we should be cautious, and the way

24:14

that it's being used right now is

24:16

many things, but it's not cautious, and that's

24:18

a problem. It

24:24

was originally designed to be a

24:27

sleep aid for a short -term

24:29

situation. Yeah. So I think

24:31

we should kind of divvy this

24:33

up for children in different situations, right?

24:35

So I think for children with

24:37

some neurodevelopmental differences that can significantly affect

24:39

their ability to sleep, autism

24:41

in particular, certain manifestations

24:43

of ADHD, I think there

24:45

has been more of a willingness to say,

24:47

look, these are children who are having, in

24:49

some cases, a tremendous difficulty falling asleep. not

24:52

sleeping or not

24:54

sleeping well can have

24:56

some really negative

24:59

long -term effects. And

25:01

it makes sense to perhaps use

25:03

melatonin regularly in order to do

25:05

that, in order to be helpful.

25:07

It might be beneficial to them.

25:10

It might be beneficial. I

25:12

think that the way that

25:14

melatonin is used often right

25:16

now, which is used regularly,

25:18

often for neurotypical children, who

25:22

are perhaps sometimes taking the

25:24

hormone a few times a week

25:26

or every night with very

25:28

little sort of supervision or input

25:30

from a medical professional is

25:32

something that very few people intend.

25:34

And even the supplement makers

25:36

themselves will often include language that

25:38

affect on their bottles, but

25:40

there's a real disjunct between kind

25:42

of where that consensus is

25:44

and how I think a lot

25:46

of people are actually using

25:48

melatonin. For all the desperate

25:50

parents hanging on your every word, what

25:52

do experts suggest for kids

25:55

who have trouble sleeping, but

25:57

they want to try other solutions

25:59

first? Yeah. And I want to be

26:01

really clear that I am not

26:03

telling families, like, don't use melatonin or

26:05

this is definitely dangerous. And I

26:07

really don't want to be in any

26:09

way. sort of delivering that message.

26:11

I think that parents have the right

26:13

to know what debates among scientists

26:15

look like and understand where there's uncertainty.

26:18

And I also think that as parents,

26:20

we're always having to weigh trade

26:22

offs. This is just a huge part

26:24

of parenting and lack of sleep

26:26

is itself something that can be really

26:28

hard on families. And this makes

26:30

sense. Like I don't want to suggest

26:32

that this is a clear cut.

26:34

Like parents stop using melatonin. I think

26:36

a lot of sleep experts you

26:39

know, perhaps predictably would say, talk

26:41

to a sleep expert. And I think

26:43

that one thing that they point out

26:45

is that establishing good bedtime routines. doing

26:48

things like avoiding screen time before

26:50

bed, steps like that can be

26:52

helpful. And I want to

26:54

say, you know, I'm a parent who has

26:56

implemented some of these behavioral interventions and

26:58

still have deals with totally chaotic bedtimes with

27:00

one of my children. And so I

27:02

don't want, I recognize that this doesn't always

27:04

work or it doesn't always feel like

27:06

it's going to work or it doesn't always

27:08

sound realistic. Well, we want kids

27:10

to have a good night's sleep for

27:12

sure. And we want parents to sleep too.

27:15

So, Michael, thank you for... Dip

27:17

in your toe in the melatonin research waters so

27:19

that we all can get a good night's sleep. Thanks

27:21

so much for having me on here. This

27:26

episode was produced by Rachel

27:28

Carlson. It was edited by our showrunner

27:30

Rebecca Ramirez and fact -checked by Tyler Jones. Maggie

27:33

Luther was the audio engineer. Beth

27:35

Donovan is our senior director and Colin

27:37

Campbell is our senior vice president of podcasting

27:39

strategy. I'm Emily Kwong. Thank

27:41

you for listening to Shortwave, the

27:43

science podcast from NPR. Thanks

27:47

for joining us and keep your

27:49

curiosity satisfied with Shortwave. It's available

27:51

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