0:00

I'm Aisharasco and you're

0:02

listening to the Sunday story

0:04

where we go beyond the

0:06

news to bring you one

0:08

big story. In a recent

0:11

address to Congress, President Trump

0:13

made a big claim about

0:15

free speech. I have stopped

0:17

all government censorship and brought

0:19

back free speech in America.

0:22

It's back. Days

0:24

later, immigration agents arrested Mahmoud

0:26

Khalil, a legal permanent resident

0:29

and Palestinian graduate student at

0:31

Columbia University, for his participation

0:34

in campus protests against Israel's

0:36

war in Gaza. More international

0:39

students who are here legally

0:41

have been arrested since and

0:44

face the possibility of deportation.

0:46

Some First Amendment experts have

0:49

observed these detentions with concern.

0:51

Insofar as the government is

0:53

going after this person, Kaleel,

0:56

because of ideas that he

0:58

expressed, we have a direct

1:00

collision with the First Amendment.

1:02

My colleague, Morning Edition co-host, Lay

1:05

Lafado, wanted to take a closer

1:07

look at how the right to

1:09

free speech might be changing for

1:11

different people in the U.S. right

1:13

now. She wanted to hear from

1:15

people who feel more freedom to

1:18

speak at this moment. I don't

1:20

think that conservatives are just in general

1:22

much more willing to speak their mind.

1:24

As well as those who feel they're being

1:26

forced into silence. They just sort of

1:29

shut down the conversation by saying, I'm

1:31

putting you on a list. It's somewhat

1:33

intimidating. This past week, Layla

1:35

and her team at Morning Edition

1:37

aired a series of conversations with

1:40

educators and students, scientists and advocacy

1:42

groups and others. After the break,

1:44

she joins me to talk about

1:46

some of what she learned about

1:48

the current state of free speech

1:50

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4:30

and why, and who is feeling

4:32

really emboldened and empowered in this

4:35

moment. And so we put a call

4:37

out to our listeners and we got

4:39

responses, and when we would reach back

4:41

out to many of the people, What

4:43

we noticed was a lot of them

4:45

seemed really nervous to talk with us.

4:48

Would you be comfortable

4:50

with us using your full name?

4:52

I'd rather not. Can we just

4:54

use my first initial? I'm

4:56

definitely worried about getting

4:58

reported. And these are teachers,

5:01

researchers, pastors, you know, regular

5:03

Americans who are in our

5:05

communities. And that was really,

5:07

at least for me, really

5:09

surprising to hear in the

5:12

US. It seems like there's a

5:14

lot of fear in the

5:16

air. Obviously, there are deep

5:18

political divisions in the US.

5:20

But it seems like the

5:22

ground has really shifted recently.

5:24

And not that long ago,

5:26

during the Biden administration, it

5:28

seemed like accusations of censorship

5:31

mostly came from people on

5:33

the right. People would talk

5:35

about quote-unquote, wokism as a

5:37

tool for censorship. The idea

5:39

that they could be canceled

5:41

in social... ostracize for having

5:43

the wrong views or politically incorrect

5:45

views. So how did you try

5:48

to find some clarity on this

5:50

moment in history? Yeah, I mean

5:52

the first thing we did was

5:54

reach out to two First Amendment

5:57

legal scholars who really both are

5:59

seen as advocates for that amendment

6:01

and for free speech, but

6:03

they come from different perspectives.

6:05

One is Lee Bollinger, and

6:08

he's the former president of

6:10

Columbia University, and we all

6:12

know what's happening with Columbia

6:14

University right now. They've had

6:16

their funding threatened. They've made

6:18

major overhauls of their security

6:20

and protester rules to try

6:22

to comply with the Trump

6:24

administration's guidance to get that

6:26

funding back. And they also

6:28

agreed. to the Trump administration's

6:30

demand that they appoint a

6:32

provost to provide oversight now

6:34

over departments that teach about

6:36

the Middle East, South Asia,

6:38

and Africa. By the way,

6:40

none of those areas of

6:42

study are the ones that

6:44

we're getting the federal funding.

6:46

And Bollinger is seen as

6:48

one of the foremost scholars

6:50

on the First Amendment and

6:52

free speech in this country.

6:54

I always say, you know,

6:56

nobody is born believing in

6:59

the First Amendment, you know,

7:01

we have to learn that.

7:03

And so it's a... continual

7:05

effort by a democracy. And

7:07

then we also reached out

7:09

to Jonathan Turley. He's another

7:11

very respected legal scholar on

7:13

the First Amendment. He's often

7:15

on Fox News as a

7:17

commentator, and he recently wrote

7:19

a book called The Indispensable

7:21

Right Free Speech in an

7:23

Age of Rage. Arguably, the

7:25

most revolutionary moment of the

7:27

American Revolution came with the

7:29

First Amendment. had never been

7:31

done before, and today it

7:33

remains revolutionary. And they really

7:35

had different perspectives on when

7:37

they have felt that speech

7:39

is threatened in this modern

7:41

time. So in Bollinger's view,

7:43

the danger is clearly right

7:45

now. I'm very alarmed by

7:47

efforts to get media, major

7:50

media, to become more... silent.

7:52

I'm worried about intrusions into

7:54

university decision-making, traditional doctrines of

7:56

academic freedom. I'm worried about

7:58

threats of prosecution and other...

8:00

types of means of quelling

8:02

dissent. He talked about how

8:04

there's a moment like every

8:06

20, 30 years where the

8:08

First Amendment free speech is

8:10

really threatened and he says

8:12

the US is going in

8:14

that direction now. You're really

8:16

using the enormous power of

8:18

the federal government to force

8:20

people not to talk in

8:22

certain ways and to think

8:24

in certain ways. All of

8:26

that has a chilling effect,

8:28

it's called on speech and

8:30

on independent institutions in the

8:32

society. Now, Turley, he argues,

8:34

it was actually the Biden

8:36

administration that was anti-free speech.

8:38

And he points to something

8:41

we hear a lot from

8:43

Republicans and Trump allies that

8:45

on social media, conservative voices

8:47

were being censored, and they

8:49

say... there was collusion with

8:51

the government to make sure

8:53

these voices were shut out

8:55

or sidelined in academia on

8:57

social media. What happened during

8:59

the Biden administration is that

9:01

you had a level of

9:03

cooperation coordination between the government

9:05

and these other entities that

9:07

the effect was that thousands

9:09

were censored. Now Layla, this

9:11

charge of censorship on social

9:13

media platforms, that's something we've

9:15

heard a lot from Republicans

9:17

and Trump allies, but a

9:19

Supreme Court decision last year

9:21

on procedural grounds rejected a

9:23

lower court's broad assertion that

9:25

social media companies were making

9:27

censorship decisions. the behest of

9:29

the government, though they did

9:32

acknowledge that the government played

9:34

a role in at least

9:36

some of the platforms moderation

9:38

choices. What else did Turley

9:40

say? The other thing that

9:42

Turley said is he sees

9:44

Trump as a possible ally

9:46

in free speech. Our greatest

9:48

allies tend to be people

9:50

who were subject to censorship.

9:52

Trump is an example. of

9:54

that. I mean he was

9:56

banned from social media. But

9:58

he is still withholding judgment

10:00

about where this administration will

10:02

land on free speech. Well

10:04

it's too early to tell

10:06

whether the Trump administration will

10:08

make free speech truly part

10:10

of its legacy in the

10:12

second term. So you heard

10:14

there very different perspectives from

10:16

Bollinger and Shirley about when

10:18

free speech has been threatened

10:20

under which administrations. But there

10:23

was a topic... where they

10:25

really kind of agreed. And

10:27

that is the topic that

10:29

you mentioned. The students that

10:31

we've seen on visas or

10:33

green card holders who are

10:35

being detained and possibly deported,

10:37

having their visas revoked over

10:39

what it seems like is

10:41

their choice to protest or

10:43

express a point of view

10:45

about the Gaza War. These

10:47

students, and including these permanent

10:49

residents, are allowed to... protest

10:51

in favor of Palestine to

10:53

criticize Israel. That's part of

10:55

the core protections that define

10:57

us as a people. Insofar

10:59

as the government is going

11:01

after this person Killeel, because

11:03

of ideas that he expressed,

11:05

we have a direct collision

11:07

with the First Amendment. And

11:09

so if that's the case,

11:11

if it really is about

11:14

what they expressed, what their

11:16

viewpoint is? that would be

11:18

a violation of the First

11:20

Amendment. So they're watching for

11:22

that. So I should say

11:24

the administration is saying actually

11:26

the reason these students are

11:28

having their visas revoked or

11:30

possibly their green cards revoked

11:32

is because the Secretary of

11:34

State... can do that if

11:36

they deem someone's presence in

11:38

this country a threat to

11:40

US foreign policy, a threat

11:42

to national security. And the

11:44

administration accuses many of them

11:46

of being aligned with Hamas,

11:48

which is a US-designated terrorist

11:50

organization. These students have all

11:52

denied being connected to Hamas,

11:54

and none of them have

11:56

been. charged with a crime,

11:58

and we keep hearing contradictory

12:00

statements. And so we've tried

12:02

to get clarity from the

12:05

administration with some direct asks,

12:07

and so far haven't heard

12:09

back. So you got these

12:11

two experts who have different perspectives,

12:13

but agree that they're concerned about

12:15

these recent detentions. But you also

12:17

talk to people who feel emboldened

12:19

to speak right now. And who

12:21

are those people who feel emboldened?

12:23

And I guess, what were their

12:25

fears before about what would happen

12:27

to them if they were speaking

12:29

out? Yeah, I mean, we spoke

12:31

to college Republicans at UC Berkeley.

12:33

And, you know. This is known

12:35

as a very liberal campus. It

12:37

has that reputation. And I spoke

12:39

to Miguel Muniz. He's a leader

12:41

of the college Republicans at the

12:43

university and he described other students'

12:45

reaction to their presence on campus

12:47

as not exactly welcoming. So I'd

12:49

say there's varying degrees of physical

12:51

harassment, right? You're not always going

12:53

to have someone pushing you, but

12:55

as far as like coming up,

12:57

grabbing signs out of people's hands,

12:59

taking them away. I'd say if

13:01

we have four people tabling it

13:03

happens to one person every time

13:05

we, every day we table. And

13:07

he says nowadays they feel like,

13:09

okay, it's shifting a little bit.

13:11

They can go out, they can

13:13

give out their flyers more openly.

13:15

They still get harassed. They said

13:17

it's not a sea change, but

13:19

there's been a spike in enrollment

13:21

in not just their club, but

13:23

there's also been a spike at

13:26

other campuses across California. And this

13:28

is another student leader of the

13:30

college Republican Martin Bertello. I can

13:32

speak for the vast majority of

13:34

my members when I say that

13:36

people are generally more feel more

13:38

free speaking their beliefs. I also

13:40

spoke to members of another group

13:42

that feel free are now moms

13:44

for liberty, which is an organization

13:46

that describes itself as a parental

13:48

rights organization. It's also been described

13:50

by groups like Southern Poverty Law

13:52

Center, which tracks hate groups as

13:54

extremist. They push for things like

13:56

book. and most of the books

13:58

that have been pushed to be

14:00

banned are by authors of color

14:02

or LGBTQ authors. They're also seen

14:04

as anti-inclusion for students who are

14:06

from more marginalized communities. These are

14:08

all labels. The group rejects. And

14:10

I spoke to Tina Deskovich. She's

14:12

a co-founder of Mom's for Liberty.

14:14

And she said there were multiple

14:16

attacks on their organization during Biden's

14:18

presidency. And that started on social

14:20

media. We were shut down on

14:22

Facebook. Our Twitter account was frozen.

14:24

And then shortly after that, PayPal

14:26

froze all of our money. Mom's

14:28

for Liberty came to be at

14:30

the height of the pandemic when

14:32

parents were really frustrated with masking

14:34

policies, with school closures, and it

14:36

was also a time where there

14:38

are a heightened amount of threats

14:40

of violence against school board members.

14:42

And so this group has also

14:44

framed the FBI's... previous investigations into

14:46

those types of violent threats against

14:48

school board members as a politically

14:50

motivated campaign to silence parents and

14:52

organizations like theirs. Parents were just

14:54

showing up, trying to voice their

14:56

opinions, sometimes not really that nice

14:58

to school board members. They were

15:00

angry about things that were going

15:02

on with their children. but in

15:04

no way shape or form should

15:06

they have had the DOJ, the

15:08

federal government coming after them. But

15:10

things are very different now. There

15:12

were representatives from Mom's for Liberty

15:14

in the White House when the

15:16

president signed an executive order that

15:18

aims at eliminating the Department of

15:20

Education, another executive order that banned

15:22

transgender athletes from... playing on women's

15:24

and girls sports teams, and they

15:26

endorsed an announcement from the Department

15:28

of Education recently announcing the NDEI

15:30

portal. And there's a portal where

15:33

pretty much anyone in your community

15:35

or beyond can go on this

15:37

website and report educators if they

15:39

see instances of diversity equity inclusion

15:41

lessons in the school. And this

15:43

is part of a larger effort

15:45

by the Trump administration to just

15:47

root it out. You know, they've

15:49

threatened. federal funding to schools that

15:51

they think are doing these types

15:53

of programs. Well it seems like

15:55

a lot of this is playing

15:57

out in education in schools. Right.

15:59

Obviously there's been talks for the

16:01

past few years about how you

16:03

teach about race in the classroom.

16:05

So what is that atmosphere in

16:07

public school classrooms? Yeah I mean

16:09

when I was speaking to a

16:11

teacher. who was afraid of the

16:13

NDEI portal that I just mentioned.

16:15

She found out about it and

16:17

she thought, oh my gosh, what

16:19

if I get reported and what

16:21

are the consequences? Does it mean

16:23

I just lose, you know, I

16:25

can't teach anymore? Will I lose

16:27

my job? And so she found

16:29

herself censoring herself in her social

16:31

studies class where she teaches history.

16:33

I have to be very careful

16:35

with the time I allow students

16:37

to speak, what I'm allowing them

16:39

to say, when to shut things

16:41

down because it's going to controversial.

16:43

And so when her kids started

16:45

making connections or saying things that

16:47

might be not positive about the

16:49

administration, she would just shut it

16:51

down. There are times where I

16:53

just have to tell them, we

16:55

have to stop talking about this

16:57

now, we can't continue on with

16:59

this conversation, or I just have

17:01

to change the subject so that

17:03

we can move into something else.

17:05

She just didn't want to feel

17:07

like she was running awry of

17:09

these very vague guidelines, and she

17:11

didn't want to use even her

17:13

first name with us. because she

17:15

was so scared of what repercussions

17:17

might exist. She asked us only

17:19

to identify her with her first

17:21

initial E. Now, we reached out

17:23

to the Department of Education, of

17:25

course, about the intentions of this

17:27

end DEAI portal and about what

17:29

would happen. You know, if somebody

17:31

gets reported, what's the process look

17:33

like and what are the possible

17:35

penalties for that? And we so

17:38

far haven't gotten a response to

17:40

those repeated requests. We spoke to

17:42

another teacher in Idaho. Her name

17:44

is Sarah Anama. She teaches sixth

17:46

grade. And she had a sign

17:48

up in her classroom. And it

17:50

said, everyone is welcome here. And

17:52

the letters were multi-colored, and there

17:54

were hands up with little hearts

17:56

in the middle, and each hand

17:58

was a different. skin tone. She'd

18:00

had it up for years in

18:02

her classroom and one day the

18:04

principal and vice principal were going

18:06

through the hallway looking for things

18:08

that might not comply with new

18:10

parameters and they decided it was

18:12

controversial. No parents had

18:14

complained, nothing like that and they

18:16

told her you need to take it down. And so

18:18

she did. She took the sign down. I've lost

18:20

sleep over this. I can't stop

18:23

thinking about it. It's just so

18:25

wrong. I just felt so... gross

18:27

feeling complacent in it. She told

18:29

me, I just don't want my

18:31

students to think that I no

18:34

longer believe in what that sign

18:36

said, that they're all welcome here,

18:38

no matter what their background

18:40

is. So you put the poster back

18:43

up. Yeah, I did. I just feel like

18:45

if you don't stand up for

18:47

what you, you know, really truly

18:50

believe to your core, like, what

18:52

is more important than that? I

18:54

just fundamentally felt like

18:56

this was just like there was no other

18:58

option for me. So we did ask the

19:01

school district what happened. They

19:03

pretty much confirmed Inama's account of

19:05

the way things happened and they

19:07

said it wasn't the words everyone

19:10

is welcome here on the sign

19:12

that they found problematic. It was

19:14

the different colors of the letters.

19:17

and the different skin tones of

19:19

the hands, they said it could

19:21

be, quote, determined to potentially express

19:23

viewpoints regarding specific identity groups.

19:26

This is quite a statement. Did that

19:28

teacher keep her job? Yeah, she's still

19:30

teaching. She's gotten a lot of

19:32

support from the community, and that

19:34

sign is still up. I guess my thought

19:36

is like, well, how can these different

19:39

views coexist where everyone can feel heard,

19:41

right? Did anyone you talk to have

19:43

a view for like how these things

19:45

can coexist? Like how can you have

19:48

moms for liberty and moms for DEI

19:50

and and them both be able to

19:52

talk as much as they were? Yeah,

19:54

I mean, I think that's these fundamental

19:57

question, right? You know, I went back

19:59

to... to Tina Deskovich for Mom's for

20:01

Liberty, which is the group that endorsed

20:04

this portal and is anti-DEI in schools.

20:06

And I asked her, what about the

20:08

people who feel silenced by things like

20:10

the NDEI portal? And she told me,

20:13

you know, they should fight for their

20:15

right, legally fight for their right, that

20:17

they have to free speech, just like

20:19

we fought for our First Amendment right.

20:22

If anyone in America is being silenced

20:24

in the way that we were silenced

20:26

the last several years, they need to

20:28

do the things that we do. They

20:31

need to organize. They need to petition

20:33

their government. We have filed lawsuits. If

20:35

they feel like the government's being weaponized

20:37

against them, they absolutely should stand up

20:40

and they should use their voice. After

20:42

the break, where else are people feeling

20:44

silenced? And how are they responding? Stay

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22:19

back with the Sunday story. So

22:21

Layla, we've talked about some of

22:24

the dynamic shifting on college campuses

22:26

and in public education, but what

22:28

are some of the other areas

22:30

and places where people have felt

22:32

this silencing or have felt concerns

22:34

about their speech? I talked to

22:36

this pastor in Florida and everybody

22:38

knows him as Maynard. He's retired.

22:41

He's another person who didn't want

22:43

me to use this full name

22:45

because he said... He didn't want

22:47

to endanger his family or members

22:49

of the churches he preaches at.

22:51

He's somebody who kind of fills

22:53

in now since he's retired, still

22:55

gives a sermon here or there

22:57

when pastors are on vacation. And

23:00

he said now when he goes

23:02

and gives sermons, if a person

23:04

doesn't like what he said, how

23:06

he's interpreted the Bible, the message

23:08

he's giving that day, they'll walk

23:10

up to him and say, I'm

23:12

going to put you on a

23:14

list. I have no clue what

23:17

that means, but it's intimidating when

23:19

someone comes up to you and

23:21

they're clearly not agreeing with something

23:23

you've talked about, whether it's showing

23:25

compassion to refugees or to homeless

23:27

people or to migrant workers. And

23:29

they just sort of shut down

23:31

the conversation by saying, I'm putting

23:33

you on a list. And when

23:36

I get put on a list,

23:38

is that going to endanger me

23:40

or my family? And then another

23:42

day he was preaching a sermon

23:44

around the idea that you know

23:46

you love your neighbor as you

23:48

love yourself and you even love

23:50

your enemy, which is a very

23:53

very difficult thing to do and

23:55

that was his sermon that day.

23:57

So I gave some examples of

23:59

how we can at least begin.

24:01

to show respect and dignity to

24:03

people who profess themselves to be

24:05

our enemies. And at the end

24:07

of the service this little old

24:09

lady came up to me and

24:12

said, nowhere in the Bible does

24:14

it teach her to love our

24:16

enemies. And she wasn't going to

24:18

do it. And I had to

24:20

present to her the fact that

24:22

I had just read from scripture

24:24

before the sermon. that we are

24:26

indeed called to this challenge, difficult

24:29

challenge to love our enemies. And

24:31

her response, much to my surprise,

24:33

she just spat at me and

24:35

she got me right in and

24:37

smack in the face. Oh my

24:39

gosh, what is that? I mean,

24:41

when the church is not, the

24:43

church I've been in, you don't

24:45

even play with those pastor like

24:48

that. You don't even come up

24:50

on the pastor like that. Not

24:52

allowed. Yeah, I mean, he was

24:54

very, it was very illuminating. He'd

24:56

never had this experience in his

24:58

life, but in this climate, that

25:00

happens to him. We also talked

25:02

to lawyers. including the lawyers that

25:04

are representing people in many of

25:07

these immigration cases who worry about

25:09

sanctions for the fact that they

25:11

are. taking up cases against the

25:13

government at a time law firms

25:15

are making deals with the Trump

25:17

administration so they won't deal with

25:19

any retribution or ramifications for cases

25:21

they took up that Trump saw

25:24

as against him. I mean, also

25:26

it's the media, the press, the

25:28

job that we do every day

25:30

is to serve our listeners and

25:32

ask the hard questions of those

25:34

in power and reflect the nation

25:36

as it is. And so we've

25:38

seen moves that seem threatening to

25:40

the press. NPR, the New York

25:43

Times, Politico, and others were kicked

25:45

out of their Pentagon offices and

25:47

replaced. And then, for the first

25:49

time, the president is picking the

25:51

pool of... reporters that cover his

25:53

activities rather than the press picking

25:55

them. So that could lead to

25:57

him being like, oh, I'm going

26:00

to pick these four people because

26:02

they cover me in the way

26:04

that I like, which would go

26:06

against a free press. And you

26:08

know, President Trump has made it

26:10

pretty clear that he will go

26:12

after the media or perceived political

26:14

enemies if he feels that they're

26:16

treating him unfairly. He spoke on

26:19

the floor of the Justice Department.

26:21

saying that he thinks what CNN

26:23

and MSNBC are doing is illegal

26:25

or should be illegal. And he's

26:27

saying that inside the Justice Department.

26:29

And so there are big questions

26:31

about the media as well and

26:33

our role in this moment. I

26:36

guess like, can we talk about

26:38

the stakes here? Yeah. Because it

26:40

does seem like when we were

26:42

talking about cancel culture, that... was

26:44

serious people, some people lost their

26:46

jobs or people lost income, certainly

26:48

everyone will say threats go all

26:50

over the place, especially online, but

26:52

what are, what is at stake

26:55

at this moment? And what are

26:57

the consequences that people are facing?

26:59

Yeah. I mean, I think it's

27:01

really important not to minimize what

27:03

happens when somebody gets quote-on-quote canceled

27:05

over speech. The larger public has

27:07

decided is unacceptable, right? I mean,

27:09

people... won't, are barred from certain

27:12

social media accounts maybe. They maybe

27:14

lose their job, maybe lose friends,

27:16

are completely sidelined. But what I'm

27:18

hearing from a lot of people

27:20

now who feel the chilling is

27:22

not that the pushback is coming

27:24

from the public. This is coming

27:26

from the government. It isn't that

27:28

they're getting canceled. It's that they're

27:31

being told if you use these

27:33

words, if you... have this viewpoint

27:35

if you use this speech, you're

27:37

not going to get federal funding.

27:39

You're going to face retribution. So

27:41

how are people reacting to these

27:43

threats? You know, what we heard

27:45

a lot of was self-sufficient. censorship,

27:48

like before you even figure out

27:50

what the consequences are, just try

27:52

to get in line. So, oh,

27:54

it looks like this executive order

27:56

is saying all of this type

27:58

of language will probably be unacceptable.

28:00

Let me take climate change out

28:02

of my report. Let me take

28:04

any mention of women of non-binary,

28:07

equity, inclusion, diversity, you know, things

28:09

that they feel they need to

28:11

have in their research in order

28:13

to continue it. You know, we

28:15

spoke to one researcher who said,

28:17

you know, if I can't look

28:19

at the inequities, I can't do

28:21

the work. And so she... But

28:24

maybe that's the point. Maybe that's

28:26

the point. And there was one

28:28

woman who wouldn't even let us

28:30

tape her. You know, at first

28:32

she was like, well, maybe you

28:34

can distort my voice and then

28:36

she didn't want even that. And

28:38

she said, I'm sitting here trying

28:40

to look for a different way

28:43

to say... talk about tribes because

28:45

they work with native tribes. And

28:47

then she was like, I don't

28:49

want to go on tape because

28:51

I'm a dual citizen. And so

28:53

I'm worried that if I say

28:55

something and I'm coming back from

28:57

Canada, she's a dual US and

28:59

Canadian citizen, there could be some

29:02

problem because of what I'm seeing

29:04

happening with visa revocation. Of course,

29:06

she's a citizen, but she's still

29:08

worried. And so I think it's

29:10

a lot of sort of sort

29:12

of getting in line before there

29:14

are consequences. When NPR reached out

29:16

to the White House for comment

29:19

on accusations of censorship and using

29:21

federal funding to control what scientists

29:23

research, they responded with a statement

29:25

pointing out that President Trump signed

29:27

an executive order on his first

29:29

day in office protecting free speech

29:31

and they said he will continue

29:33

to fight against censorship while evaluating

29:35

all federal spending to identify waste,

29:38

fraud, and abuse. But then we

29:40

found some people who were like

29:42

nope. I'm gonna stand up. The

29:44

more I thought about it, the

29:46

more outraged I became. We spoke

29:48

to this. woman, Karen Ortiz. She's

29:50

an administrative judge at the Equal

29:52

Employment Opportunity Commission. So, you know,

29:55

she would be who you would

29:57

go to if you had a

29:59

problem at work. Maybe you faced

30:01

discrimination and you wanted it redressed.

30:03

You would go to somebody like

30:05

Karen Ortiz. And on his first

30:07

day in office, Trump signed this

30:09

executive order that declared that the

30:11

US government now only recognizes two

30:14

sexes, male, female. And about a

30:16

week after that executive order, Ortiz

30:18

says she received this directive from

30:20

her direct supervisor to pause all

30:22

their LGBTQ cases in New York

30:24

and send them to Washington for

30:26

further review. I was seething. And

30:28

so she decided to stand up

30:31

and say no, and she, you

30:33

know, hit reply all, sends an

30:35

email back to her boss and

30:37

the entire agency. The subject line

30:39

was, this is not normal in

30:41

all caps. And I said, we

30:43

are federal employees answerable to the

30:45

people of the United States, not

30:47

Elon Musk. Please resist. Do not

30:50

comply with their illegal mandates. I

30:52

will not stand idly by wringing

30:54

my hands when we have really

30:56

important work to do for the

30:58

American people. I know I risk

31:00

a lot personally by even just

31:02

sending this email, but I deeply

31:04

care for all of you and

31:07

the American public. It's time for

31:09

us to embody the civil rights

31:11

work we were hired to do

31:13

and honor the oath to the

31:15

Constitution that we all took. And

31:17

are you still in your job?

31:19

I am. I am. I'm still

31:21

standing and I make it a

31:23

point to be in the office

31:26

as much as possible to show

31:28

my face, to be on zooms

31:30

or teams meetings with my face.

31:32

So my colleagues can see I'm

31:34

still standing and it's our duty

31:36

to uphold these laws and when

31:38

people in leadership are cowering and

31:40

too scared to say anything, it's

31:43

okay for rank and file to

31:45

speak up. Layla, you've spent many

31:47

years of your career reporting from

31:49

other countries. Are you hearing any

31:51

echoes from your reporting abroad? I

31:53

mean, in the U.S., we've always

31:55

said, you know, it's a free

31:57

country. It's a free country. You

31:59

can say whatever you want. Yeah,

32:02

like, but are you seeing some

32:04

maybe echoes of what you've seen

32:06

in other countries? Yeah, I've worked

32:08

in countries where the consequences are

32:10

extremely severe. for criticizing governments, right?

32:12

In Syria, you were actually disappeared.

32:14

Nobody knew where you went, and

32:16

you showed up often dead or

32:19

never. You know, we saw mass

32:21

graves from that regime. In Egypt,

32:23

you know, the same thing. You

32:25

could end up in house arrest.

32:27

Anybody could file a suit against

32:29

you, and the prosecutor will pick

32:31

it up if it's something critical

32:33

of the government, and you could

32:35

end up in jail. First speech.

32:38

Free press. There was no thriving

32:40

free press. There was a demonization

32:42

of civil society organizations that were

32:44

working on critical work that documented

32:46

human rights abuses. And what I

32:48

will say is when we did

32:50

this call out to our listeners

32:52

saying, how do you feel? Do

32:54

you feel free to speak in

32:57

this moment? Do you feel less

32:59

free to speak? I was so

33:01

shocked, our entire team was so

33:03

shocked to read through all of

33:05

these responses and see how many

33:07

people didn't feel safe. saying this

33:09

is my full name and this

33:11

is what I do. That is

33:14

something new in the United States.

33:16

I've worked here for a long

33:18

time, I've worked abroad for a

33:20

long time, and that is something

33:22

familiar to me in countries where

33:24

I did live. And the other

33:26

thing that is familiar is often

33:28

when the governments couldn't deal with

33:30

the consequences, the social consequences from

33:33

the republic that they served, they

33:35

would scapegoat and demonize the organizations

33:37

or the press that reported on

33:39

what was happening. You know, I

33:41

remember doing an interview in Egypt

33:43

and there had been so much

33:45

time spent on demonizing the foreign

33:47

press as people who wanted to

33:50

destroy the country and they were

33:52

anti-Egypt and they didn't love Egypt

33:54

That I would have people Grab

33:56

my notebook out of my hand

33:58

or scream at me because they

34:00

believed that it wasn't me trying

34:02

to find and share that with

34:04

the world, it was me trying

34:06

to destroy Egypt. And that feels

34:09

familiar. Well, thank you for this

34:11

illuminating series and conversation. You know,

34:13

it's not an overstatement to say

34:15

that this is one of the

34:17

most critical and important questions of

34:19

this moment and of this time.

34:21

And thank you for doing the

34:23

work on it. Thank you so

34:26

much for having me. If

34:35

you want to spend more

34:37

time thinking about the nuances

34:39

of free speech in America,

34:41

our colleagues at NPR's through-line

34:43

podcast have an episode that

34:45

gets at the question, what

34:47

exactly is free speech? The

34:49

answer to that question has

34:51

changed over the course of

34:53

American history. It's a story

34:55

that travels through world wars

34:57

and culture wars, from the

34:59

highest courts to the Ku

35:01

Klux Klan. Dig into the

35:03

history of the First Amendment

35:05

on NPR's through-line podcast, wherever

35:07

you listen to podcast. This

35:09

episode of The Sunday Story

35:11

was produced by Justin Yan,

35:13

with help from Taylor Haney,

35:15

and Kyle Gajago Mackey. It

35:17

was edited by Leana Simstrom

35:19

and Arzu Resvani, audio engineering

35:21

by James Willitt. The Sunday

35:23

Story team includes Andrew Mambo,

35:25

and our senior editor, Ginny

35:27

Schmidt. Irene Naguchi is our

35:30

executive producer. I'm Aisharasco up

35:32

first is back tomorrow with

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