0:00

Today on upstream, we're releasing a

0:02

conversation from the 2024 Hill

0:04

and Valley Forum between Palantir's

0:06

CEO Alex Karp and Congressman

0:08

Ritchie Torres. They discuss higher

0:10

education, Palantir's culture, contrarianism,

0:13

and more. Keep an eye out

0:15

for the 2025 Hill and Valley Forum,

0:17

which will take place on Wednesday, April

0:19

30th. You can learn more in the

0:21

description. Please enjoy the episode. invite

0:38

Dr. Alex

0:41

Karp, the

0:43

CEO of

0:46

Palatier Technologies,

0:48

and Congressman

0:51

Ritchie Torres,

0:53

for tonight's

0:56

first informal

0:59

discussion. Let's

1:02

give them a

1:04

more hand. So

1:11

thank you for giving me the

1:13

honor to interview you. So I

1:15

think when I think of Alex

1:17

Karp, you know, the word that

1:19

comes to mind is fearlessness. You're

1:22

fearless in a world of fear,

1:24

you project moral clarity in a

1:26

world of moral confusion, and you

1:28

know, I believe that the greatest

1:30

threat to our democracy is not

1:32

the far left or the far

1:34

right, but it's the center that

1:36

lives in fear of the extremes.

1:39

Right, we see so-called leaders in

1:41

higher education in corporate America in

1:43

American politics that live in fear

1:45

of students and faculty and employees.

1:47

And what I find striking about

1:49

you is that you refuse to

1:51

live in fear. You speak with

1:53

moral clarity. And so I'm curious,

1:55

what, you know, why do you

1:57

speak out when others choose to

2:00

remain silent? Where does that come

2:02

from? Well, first of all, I'm

2:04

usually honored to be here and

2:06

very honored to be on stage

2:08

with you. And I remember, you

2:10

know, I met you the first

2:12

time a couple weeks ago and,

2:15

you know, I know, I read,

2:17

I've read it over here about

2:19

you and, you know, you speaking

2:21

out on lots of subjects, especially

2:23

anti-Semitism. But, you know, I've done

2:25

a lot of meetings, I do

2:27

a lot of meetings. And I

2:30

remember you were telling me

2:32

about, you told the story

2:34

about, you know, you have

2:36

two brothers, both of whom

2:38

are in and out, I

2:40

think, are still in prison.

2:42

And then you went to

2:44

the person who put them

2:46

in jail and said, hey,

2:48

you owe me, you got

2:50

to help me get my

2:52

election started. And we may

2:54

have to switch, actually. It's

2:56

like sharing an illicit substance.

2:58

And you know, I left

3:00

that meeting really super

3:02

motivated because I think

3:04

a lot of the

3:06

people on both sides

3:09

look past and don't

3:11

have enough empathy with

3:13

the average person. And

3:15

so I'm hugely honored

3:17

to be here because

3:19

what I saw in

3:22

that statement was you

3:24

actually care about people

3:26

like... your brothers and

3:28

literal brothers and what

3:30

actually happens to them, not

3:32

some theoretical agenda that you

3:35

might have learned by heart

3:37

at an elite school but

3:39

may not believe in or

3:42

absorb the consequences of. And

3:44

I thought that was one

3:47

of the more motivating interactions

3:49

I've had and hugely honored

3:51

to be on stage. Is

3:54

it really loud or is it

3:56

just me? It's like, I feel

3:58

like, you know, what? One of

4:00

the, one of, I think

4:02

it's like almost like out

4:05

of a movie. And you

4:07

know, it's interesting, one of

4:09

the ways you test for

4:11

dyslexia, if you have someone

4:13

who doesn't speak English, is

4:15

you give them something to

4:18

draw and then you give

4:20

them ambient noise and then

4:22

they stop drawing. So I'm

4:24

hugely dyslexic and I might

4:26

go on, go off. golf

4:28

even more of course. You

4:30

know, I don't really see myself

4:33

as courageous. He's referring to, you

4:35

know, we were the first people

4:38

in defense tech, we were the

4:40

first people in Silicon Valley to

4:42

push back against being, you know,

4:45

people who thought we shouldn't support

4:47

the government. I was the first

4:50

person in Ukraine, I've been openly

4:52

pro-Israel, I lambast people who attack

4:54

minorities of all kind, but in

4:57

this case especially, Jewish people and

4:59

I built with together

5:01

with my co-founders one

5:04

of whom is here

5:06

and Palantarians not just

5:08

Palantier but you know

5:11

almost every defense tech

5:13

company that's succeeding is

5:16

somehow succeeding with Palantarians

5:18

and I think there's

5:21

a link between disruptive

5:23

products and clarity inside

5:26

your culture and clarity

5:28

outside your culture. And

5:30

so that if you want

5:32

to actually build something that

5:34

will change the world for

5:36

the better, whether that's fighting

5:38

terrorism with civil liberties, targeting

5:40

our adversaries in software, and

5:42

or building a successful commercial

5:44

business, the standard playbook is

5:46

you kind of build a

5:48

thin product. You take the

5:50

product and then you hire

5:53

sales people and you wonder

5:55

around the world pretending you

5:57

believe in things you don't

5:59

believe in. And I don't

6:01

think that actually works very well.

6:03

And I will not work

6:05

in an enterprise, and you will

6:07

not attract and retain the best

6:10

engineers. Certainly not in year 20.

6:12

Right now, Palantir is one of

6:15

the most competitive environments in the

6:17

world for the best talent. You

6:19

know, Harvard, Yale, and Stanford, had,

6:22

I'm pro Stanford, but their degree

6:24

was more valuable than a

6:26

Palantir degree. It's not now. And

6:29

that's simply because. We are honest

6:31

on the inside and honest on

6:33

the outside. And a lot

6:35

of these things that people advocate

6:38

for like taking over Colombia's university

6:40

and discriminating against people who are

6:43

Jewish are either done by

6:45

people who have fallen into the

6:47

pit of the thin religion that

6:49

they identify with their narrowly defined

6:52

identity or by people who

6:54

don't believe in it. And if

6:56

you subscribe to those ideologies, you

6:59

will never attract the best and

7:01

the brightest and the most interesting

7:03

people. In fact, you know,

7:05

I have a lot of relationships

7:08

here that are quite powerful. And

7:10

in most cases, it's because truly

7:13

interesting talented people don't want

7:15

to hear some thin BS that

7:17

they do not believe. And if

7:19

they did, of course, we all

7:22

have to listen to things

7:24

that we think are in name.

7:26

That's part of how you survive

7:29

you survive in this world. But

7:31

it's quite refreshing to hear something

7:34

that is obviously not a name.

7:36

And then you build great relationships.

7:38

So I don't know. For me,

7:41

a lot of things that people

7:43

call courageous. It's more like, why

7:46

does a painter use this color

7:48

as opposed to that color? I

7:50

don't know. I just, yeah. You

7:53

know, so speaking of lack

7:55

of courage, I want to ask

7:57

you about really the leadership crisis

8:00

in higher education. What do you

8:02

make of the crisis of

8:04

anti-Semitism unfolding on college campuses, do

8:06

you see it as a symptomatic

8:09

of a deeper rot in our

8:11

society? I don't think it's

8:13

a deeper rot in our society.

8:16

I do think it's a deeper

8:18

rot in our elite educational institutions.

8:20

And I don't, I think

8:22

I personally believe, one of the

8:25

more fascinating things about the obvious...

8:28

dysfunction of and hate in

8:30

our larger in our especially

8:32

elite schools is if you

8:35

if you leave the tethering

8:37

of what our founding father

8:39

set up and broadly speaking

8:41

liberalism you would think you

8:43

would fall down a story

8:45

or two but you actually

8:47

fall back to what amounts

8:49

to a pagan religion and

8:52

they believe this religion. It's

8:54

like it is not the

8:56

case and one of the

8:58

more interesting things about that

9:00

religion is that you can

9:02

simultaneously dedicate yourself to the

9:04

eradication of prejudice and prevent

9:06

people who come from a

9:08

group that's been discriminated against

9:11

for 3,000 years from entering

9:13

the building and you don't

9:15

see a contradiction. So you

9:17

can ask what is it

9:19

about that religion that reduces

9:21

their cognitive capacities to the

9:23

point? where the obvious contradiction

9:25

of being an institution dedicated

9:27

to the eradication of basic

9:30

human impulses, which includes prejudice

9:32

of all kinds, which everybody

9:34

in this room would celebrate

9:36

and simultaneously embracing the most

9:38

apparent and radical discrimination you've

9:40

ever seen. If you asked

9:42

a university professor, what would

9:44

you do if a group

9:46

experiences? Most non-gun-wielding intellectuals of

9:49

which I am a member

9:51

would say I'd go get

9:53

a gun. But not in

9:55

this case. And so that

9:57

what we and I also

9:59

think we in this room

10:01

in other places, we bear

10:03

responsibility. But the main responsibility

10:05

we bear is to call

10:08

out. I'm not saying you

10:10

have to agree with me

10:12

or you on Israel or

10:14

me and you on Ukraine

10:16

or whatever. But this is

10:18

basic dysfunction. And it believing

10:20

in this religion is a

10:22

straight path to a society

10:24

that will not work to

10:27

tech companies that cannot be

10:29

built to a GDP which

10:31

declines to a military which

10:33

cannot work to adversaries which

10:35

to eat us up slowly

10:37

and then destroy us. And

10:39

to the extent you agree

10:41

with that, especially like I've

10:44

historically, I have a PhD

10:46

from a German university, I

10:48

come from a progressive family.

10:50

I've been a donor to

10:52

many, certainly almost every progressive

10:54

in this room. I am

10:56

a large supporter of Biden.

10:58

We have to speak up.

11:00

This isn't a weird way,

11:03

our battle. This is happening

11:05

on our watch. Those universities

11:07

claim to be progressive. They

11:09

are not progressive. And we

11:11

should not allow this to

11:13

happen in our need, which

11:15

is to fact what is

11:17

happening. And it is absolutely

11:19

wrong and disgusting to allow

11:22

over discrimination at institutions we

11:24

pay for of any kind.

11:26

And we have to stand

11:28

up, especially those of us

11:30

who have PhDs who are

11:32

part of that environment, who

11:34

know that environment on the

11:36

inside, like I do. That's

11:38

our battle. And especially if

11:41

you have been sick, you

11:43

know, had some kind of

11:45

success. it's time to use

11:47

it. And that, and those

11:49

voices may be too small,

11:51

but I, I think I

11:53

do. think we're at a

11:55

crescendo event with especially what's

11:57

happening in elite universities if

12:00

only because all of us

12:02

know their value because we

12:04

participated in some way at

12:06

those universities and the best

12:08

things that have happened to

12:10

our country i.e. Silicon Valley

12:12

as an example is only

12:14

possible because of elite educational

12:17

institutions broadly defined including the

12:19

small colleges, university technical training

12:21

that happened in our country

12:23

that was also and is

12:25

the magnet of this world.

12:27

Like if you look at

12:29

the tech community and the

12:31

people who are hosting this

12:33

conference, we are either disproportionately

12:36

from abroad or have spent

12:38

a lot of our lives

12:40

abroad and we are very

12:42

appreciative of this country and

12:44

its educational institutions. I've heard

12:46

you use a phrase repeatedly

12:48

non-playbook players. Can you elaborate?

12:50

on that concept. I often

12:52

get, especially in Europe, because

12:55

I spend a lot, I

12:57

speak German, I did a

12:59

PhD there, and to a

13:01

lesser extent in France, but

13:03

often abroad, like in Germany,

13:05

the question is what went

13:07

wrong and how can we

13:09

fix it? Maybe they have

13:11

almost no GDP growth, there's

13:14

no basically a minimal text

13:16

scene. If you took a

13:18

table here. any random table

13:20

that text seen at the

13:22

table be larger than all

13:24

of Germany. And one of

13:26

the things that we have

13:28

as a resource here is

13:30

we generate people who can

13:33

act without a playbook. Like

13:35

to build an important institution,

13:37

a tech company, one that's

13:39

disruptive as an example, you

13:41

have to build things where

13:43

there is no one that

13:45

can teach you how to

13:47

teach you how to build

13:50

it how to build it.

13:52

And that is a rare

13:54

asset that we have disproportionately

13:56

in this country. that really

13:58

no one else has at

14:00

scale? You know obviously we're

14:02

here at the Hill and

14:04

Valley Forum and I think

14:06

it's fair to say that

14:09

there's been an acrimonious marriage

14:11

between Capitol Hill and Silicon

14:13

Valley. You know each side

14:15

sees itself as a battered

14:17

partner of the other. We

14:19

speak foreign languages. You know

14:21

how do we make that

14:23

dysfunctional marriage work for the

14:25

good of the country? Well,

14:29

you know, I guess I

14:31

would normally say makeup sex,

14:33

but it's... Well, you know,

14:36

sometimes dysfunctional relationships are more

14:38

fun. You know, not every

14:40

dysfunctional relationship is bad. And

14:43

I think the relationship is

14:45

a lot better. I mean,

14:47

look, I have a lot

14:50

of complaints, but I think

14:52

it's structurally a lot better

14:54

than in most countries. My

14:56

experience with legislators is quite

14:59

positive actually. You have to

15:01

establish that you are aligned

15:03

broadly with America and many

15:06

people in the House and

15:08

Senator actually technical experts. You

15:10

have in our case a

15:13

lot of people who work

15:15

in the staff, some senators

15:17

and congressmen and congressmen are

15:20

X. military or have dedicated

15:22

themselves to the military. And

15:24

you know, there are a

15:27

number of people in the

15:29

Senate especially, but also in

15:31

the House, if and when

15:34

they fire me a palager

15:36

and they randomly called and

15:38

said, do you want to

15:41

have a beer? I'd be

15:43

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mention turpentine to skip the wait

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list. So you know the world

19:09

is changing rapidly at a pace

19:11

and on a scale that we've

19:14

never seen before, especially with AI.

19:16

We could just start over the

19:18

internet. Do the whole thing from

19:20

the beginning? Yeah. Do you have

19:23

confidence in the federal government's ability

19:25

to adapt to a world of

19:27

exponential change? You know, you can

19:30

always compare things in absolute or

19:32

relative terms. Of course, the U.S.

19:34

government could do better. But if

19:37

you compare the U.S. government to

19:39

any other government, our product is

19:41

used basically everywhere in the Western

19:44

world. With some restrictions we've self-imposed.

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We never sold to adversaries, obviously

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not to China, Iran, Russia. If

19:50

you compare the U.S. government as

19:53

procurement to any country... of relevant

19:55

even comparable size. We're much more

19:57

meritocratic. The U.S. government has ways

20:00

of procuring things when it really

20:02

wants it. And yet we obviously

20:04

need to do better. We obviously

20:07

need ways of verifying what things

20:09

are working. You know, obviously the

20:11

U.S. government buys a lot of

20:14

things that it shouldn't buy. And,

20:16

you know, if we're looking at

20:18

a tightening budget, and in general,

20:21

if we want to outperform China,

20:23

we're going to have to actually

20:25

purchase things that are built by

20:27

things that, you know, that America

20:30

does well, primarily software. And those

20:32

things have to be proven on

20:34

the battlefield or proven commercially. There

20:37

is no watching a PowerPoint and

20:39

buying the best software. You have

20:41

to actually test it. That's what

20:44

Israel does. It's what our DOD

20:46

does in part, but not always.

20:48

And then you have to be

20:51

able to scale it quicker. One

20:53

of the big challenges, a lot

20:55

of the challenges are just software

20:57

challenges the way institutions are run.

21:00

Institutions love lots of hierarchy. Software

21:02

likes meritocracy. Institutions like the idea.

21:04

You'll have multiple people providing the

21:07

same product. By and large and

21:09

software, there's one person, one company

21:11

that provides one product. Large institutions

21:14

of the U.S. government doesn't like

21:16

that. Software is built by people

21:18

that tend to be... very focused

21:21

on saying things that are annoying,

21:23

obnoxious, unpleasant, and true. Large institutions

21:25

don't always like to interact with

21:28

people like that. Software, Silicon Valley

21:30

is built on attracting and retaining

21:32

people who are between one in

21:34

a million and one in a

21:37

hundred thousand, whatever they do. But

21:39

they may, you know, they may

21:41

be one in a hundred thousand

21:44

bad at explaining to a general

21:46

or someone... how they would actually

21:48

implement the system. You know, it's

21:51

a huge cultural shock and a

21:53

lot of what has to change

21:55

is not even stuff that has

21:58

to be mandated. It's just like...

22:00

you have to learn to like

22:02

or at least work with the

22:04

people that produce the most valuable

22:07

thing. And for us in this

22:09

country that is deployable and usable

22:11

technology, especially technologies, hardware and software

22:14

that are powered by companies that

22:16

are younger and built all across

22:18

America disproportionately in Silicon Valley. And

22:21

that's like if you, you know,

22:23

when you're building a business. you

22:25

really do grow to like the

22:28

people who perform very quickly or

22:30

you will not have a business.

22:32

And you know at Palantir as

22:35

an example I manage the most

22:37

interesting difficult and in times off

22:39

kilter people you could ever imagine

22:41

and we have built some of

22:44

the more interesting products in the

22:46

world. and it would not be

22:48

possible without those people and you

22:51

can't just say well that person's

22:53

annoying that person has views I

22:55

don't like that person can't integrate

22:58

yeah but they build the best

23:00

products in the world and that

23:02

that's a cultural shift and we

23:05

have to make we have to

23:07

go through that because otherwise like

23:09

China and Russia have a huge

23:11

advantage Russia is very good at

23:14

manufacturing China is very good at

23:16

engineering their leaders are engineers They're

23:18

not very good at organizing and

23:21

building a tech scene. And in

23:23

our business, there are no Chinese

23:25

or Russian competitors, not one. Just

23:28

think about that. We have no

23:30

competition from those countries. Not at

23:32

all. I mean, not even like

23:35

fake competition. Nowhere in US commercial

23:37

at any adversarial country. I've never

23:39

even heard of someone saying we're

23:42

choosing between Palangir and the Russian

23:44

or Chinese product. And believe me,

23:46

I've heard about people choosing between

23:48

us and like 108 software, my

23:51

uncle makes it, and they throw

23:53

his great steak dinner. Like, that

23:55

is like, this is a absolute

23:58

disproportionate, in fact... The Delta is

24:00

so disproportionate, most Americans don't really

24:02

believe it. Because they're like, okay,

24:05

well, the trains and the schools

24:07

work better in China and Russia,

24:09

their leaders seem very bright. Why

24:12

would their software suck? And it's

24:14

very hard to explain, actually, why

24:16

we are so good at producing

24:18

innovative tech companies that disrupt. But

24:21

there are some obvious things that

24:23

we have, no one else has.

24:25

The best immigrants, the best schools,

24:28

we had the best schools, the

24:30

best ways of fairness, meritocracy, these

24:32

kind of weird simple ideas. And

24:35

I lived half my life abroad

24:37

trying to get something to work

24:39

fair in a fair fashion at

24:42

the German university. Like in Germany,

24:44

I was always fighting as naive

24:46

as I was to hire the

24:48

most qualified person. And people would

24:51

say, but why would you hire

24:53

the most qualified person? No one

24:55

hires the most qualified person. That

24:58

person never gets a job. I'm

25:00

like, okay, I guess I'm just

25:02

American, but we in America, we

25:05

occasionally hire the most qualified person.

25:07

And like these things, metastasize and

25:09

give you a structural advantage that

25:12

is truly unique. And our basic

25:14

job as tech leaders and leaders

25:16

who care and in Congress, people

25:19

who care and people who are

25:21

actually courageous. is to actually just

25:23

make sure these things get implemented

25:25

in the US economy and in

25:28

our war fighters. So a question

25:30

about US-China competition, who's winning the

25:32

tech arms race? And even if

25:35

you assume that the United States

25:37

will out innovate China, do you

25:39

worry as I do that China

25:42

could be more effective? at integrating

25:44

emerging technologies into their government into

25:46

their military industrial complex? Well, look,

25:49

I mean, I think it's obvious

25:51

we're somewhat ahead. We're not so

25:53

far ahead that we couldn't... screw

25:55

it up. I, you know, of

25:58

course, what I'm supposed to say

26:00

and I believe is we have

26:02

to move quicker, we have to

26:05

spend more. I do think like

26:07

making sure we figure out how

26:09

to reform our elite institutions so

26:12

that they're not completely destructive, dysfunctional

26:14

and anti the the progressive values

26:16

that represent America broadly defined is

26:19

a really big issue for our

26:21

country and you might be surprised.

26:23

how if we fail at that,

26:26

the other things kind of don't

26:28

work as well. So I mean,

26:30

obviously, my self-interest is that we

26:32

should spend more, we should spend

26:35

better, it should be meritocratic, that's

26:37

hugely advanced for a pound here,

26:39

but if we can get a

26:42

way to come together, left people

26:44

on the, who are of decent

26:46

values, right, left, and center, and

26:49

say these are the lines, we

26:51

shouldn't cross them, I think that's

26:53

much more important than anything else.

27:05

You know, there are commentators who

27:07

worry about generative AI, large language

27:10

models. You know, there are those

27:12

who fear that we're becoming like

27:14

Dr. Frankenstein. We're creating a monster

27:16

that we can either fully understand

27:19

or fully control. And I get

27:21

the sense that despite the fear

27:23

of the unknown, you feel like

27:26

we should embrace what you've described

27:28

as this up-and-heimer moment. So can

27:30

you talk about that? Look, there

27:32

are two issues. One is that

27:35

it is the key to keeping

27:37

our GDP. growing the GDP of

27:39

America and that is actually important.

27:41

If you look at France, the

27:44

country, I spend a lot of

27:46

time in it and admire, between

27:48

61 and 91, their GDP grew

27:50

roughly like ours, maybe a little

27:53

less, we were 164 percent, they

27:55

were like 184 percent, and then

27:57

in the last 30 years it's

27:59

been, I think it's been significant.

28:02

significantly less, but you kind of

28:04

have a feeling like America's GDP

28:06

story led by tech will shift

28:08

and you know our we haven't

28:11

announced last quarter but the quarter

28:13

before pound here grew 70% and

28:15

No one thinks that's because of

28:17

our sales so it's because you

28:20

know you just have massive absorption

28:22

of technology You can now build

28:24

a Japanese manufacturing plant in the

28:26

U.S. with AI. You can manage

28:29

American workers as if they were

28:31

Japanese engineers in the U.S. You

28:33

can power hospitals with low mortgage

28:35

margins and do it ethically and

28:38

make sure that discrimination is not

28:40

part of the selection process of

28:42

who's the patient and verify it.

28:44

It is just a myriad of

28:47

use cases that change the productivity

28:49

of U.S. institutions. And then you

28:51

get to, again... What is the

28:53

central advantage America could have over

28:56

its adversaries? Advantage is defined not

28:58

by what you can do, but

29:00

what they can't do. You always

29:02

have to ask, is this something

29:05

that we can do, they suck

29:07

at? In every aspect of competition.

29:09

And so I do think there

29:11

are real dangers, but it'd be

29:14

very good, you know, we should

29:16

embrace what we have in this

29:18

country, figure out how to regulate

29:20

it, in a way that makes

29:23

sense. There's been a lot of

29:25

effective discussions here. and run like

29:27

hell so that our competition doesn't

29:29

beat us. And again, I don't

29:32

have to remind people in this

29:34

room, but it is, you'd be,

29:36

you know, we assume that the

29:38

world embraced liberalism broadly defined because

29:41

it was a better idea, but

29:43

I think it embraced liberalism because

29:45

people looked at the US and

29:48

thought, well, that's a better way

29:50

of organizing. my life for my

29:52

citizens and that was backed by

29:54

US power. That would not have

29:57

happened simply based on winning ideas

29:59

alone. It was idea, right ideas,

30:01

charismatic ideas and superiority on the

30:03

battlefield. And you need that combination.

30:06

That is the combination that allows

30:08

people to see the value and

30:10

things that are obviously valuable. It's

30:12

not ipso facto that they absorb

30:15

those ideas. I guess final question.

30:17

You founded Palance here 20 years

30:19

ago in a post-9-11 worlds. You

30:21

know, what are your hopes and

30:24

ambitions for the next 20 years?

30:29

I mean, look, the

30:31

world peace, but believing

30:33

world peace aside, you

30:35

know, I do see,

30:37

I do think the

30:39

Palantier project and a

30:41

success is a harbinger

30:43

for other people doing

30:46

things that would make

30:48

the world a better,

30:50

fair, more equitable, decent

30:52

place. And so in

30:54

that narrow sense, when

30:56

we meet again in

30:58

10 years, I think

31:00

we will be 10

31:02

to 20 times bigger.

31:04

20 years from now,

31:06

I'll still be considered

31:08

a young member of

31:11

Congress, but I think

31:13

we're done. So thank

31:15

you. You'll be a

31:17

seasoned member of something.

31:19

Yeah. Thank you for

31:21

your time. Please leave

31:23

a review in the

31:25

Apple Store.