0:00

We have a crisis

0:03

in the world, tremendous

0:05

crisis, and also crisis

0:08

in our consciousness in

0:10

us. I see the urgency of

0:12

change, radical revolution,

0:15

mutation in the mind. I

0:17

see it. It is necessary.

0:20

There is complete quietness

0:22

of the mind, and

0:25

that which is silent,

0:27

has vast space. Only

0:29

then, that which is

0:32

nameless, comes into

0:34

being. This is

0:37

urgency of change,

0:39

the Krishnamerti podcast.

0:43

We are incapable,

0:45

so we look, we search,

0:48

we find somebody

0:50

to tell us what

0:52

to do, and we put

0:55

our faith in those

0:57

people. But faith and trust

1:00

have no value. Hello and

1:02

welcome to episode 260 of

1:04

urgency of change. Each episode

1:06

of the Christian Merti podcast

1:08

is based on a significant theme

1:11

of his talks. Extracts

1:13

have been carefully selected

1:15

to represent Christian Merti's

1:18

different approaches to these

1:20

universal and timeless topics.

1:23

This week's theme is trust and

1:25

faith. Upcoming themes are

1:27

abstraction. mechanical living and

1:30

grief and loss. This is a

1:32

podcast from Krishnamerti Foundation

1:34

Trust. Please visit the

1:36

official YouTube channel for

1:38

hundreds of full-length video

1:40

and audio recordings of

1:43

Krishnamerti's talks and discussions.

1:45

In addition, the Foundation's own

1:47

channel features a large collection

1:49

of clips. You can also find

1:52

our regular Krishnamerti quotes and

1:54

videos on Instagram, Tiktok and

1:56

Facebook. at Krishna Meti Foundation.

1:59

trust. If

2:02

you enjoy the podcast please leave a

2:04

review or rating on your podcast app. This

2:09

episode on trust and faith has

2:11

five sections. This

2:14

first extract is from the

2:16

second question and answer meeting

2:18

in Saanen in 1980 and

2:20

is titled Trust and Certainty. We

2:25

move from

2:27

certainty to uncertainty, then

2:29

from that uncertainty

2:32

to another certainty.

2:41

Trust this person and

2:43

then later on discover that

2:45

he is not worthy

2:47

of your trust and move

2:49

to another and

2:53

again put your trust in

2:55

him, then discover

2:58

he is untrusty, that is

3:00

our life. Right?

3:05

And

3:07

please, Please,

3:12

you are not putting your trust in me, be

3:16

very clear –

3:18

I won't have it.

3:23

To me that is

3:25

the beginning of

3:27

corruption. Avoid

3:33

this life, not to

3:35

be corrupted. I

3:37

won't be corrupted. So,

3:46

as I pointed

3:48

out yesterday, various

3:50

types of experiments

3:52

have been made

3:55

on animals –

3:57

pigeons, monkeys, rats.

4:03

And these monkeys'

4:06

pigeons and rats,

4:08

by pressing a

4:10

button, get their

4:13

food. But if

4:15

you keep changing

4:17

the buttons all

4:20

the time, the

4:22

bird, the monkey,

4:24

the rat gives

4:27

up, they lie.

4:29

You understand? This

4:31

constant movement. from

4:34

certainty, from trust

4:36

to trust. This

4:38

is what has

4:41

happened to all

4:43

of, to human

4:45

beings. This has

4:48

been the movement

4:50

from time immemory.

4:52

You understand, sirs.

4:55

You trusted the

4:57

priest. hierarchical structure

4:59

of organized religion?

5:02

Do you discard

5:04

it? Then go

5:06

to another? It

5:09

is the same

5:11

thing in a

5:13

different guard. There

5:16

you put your

5:18

trust and again

5:20

discover later on,

5:23

good lord, what

5:25

have I done?

5:30

and always seeking

5:33

outside somebody who

5:35

will give you

5:38

hope, trust, certainty,

5:40

either in books,

5:43

in philosophers, in

5:46

priests, or in

5:48

scientists, or in

5:51

politicians. Right? And

5:54

none of them

5:56

have given... extreme

6:01

left, right or

6:03

center. So what

6:06

is wrong with

6:09

us? Why are

6:11

we doing this

6:14

all the time? Or

6:16

if you don't do

6:19

it, you become

6:21

cynical, bitter,

6:24

saying it.

6:26

Not worth it.

6:29

every own narrow

6:31

little ugly life,

6:33

and that's that.

6:35

But if you

6:38

are asking for

6:40

certainty, which you

6:42

are, where do you

6:45

find it? In

6:47

a human being?

6:56

in a priest with

6:58

his garb and

7:01

with his mitre,

7:03

with his... all

7:05

that? Or in

7:08

India? Where do

7:10

you find it?

7:12

What is uncertainty?

7:15

You follow my

7:17

question? Where do

7:20

you find it?

7:22

In somebody else?

7:27

in a concept in

7:29

the state, you

7:32

understand what

7:34

I'm asking, in

7:36

having plenty

7:39

of money and

7:41

feeling completely

7:43

safe, there is

7:46

no such person

7:48

anymore. So where

7:51

do you seek

7:53

certainty? If

7:57

you seek it, you won't find

7:59

it. Right?

8:03

Because

8:05

you have

8:08

salt it

8:10

in everything

8:14

around you.

8:17

I used

8:19

to know a

8:22

man who one

8:25

he was walking one day around the

8:27

beach. Let

8:33

no other dog bark.

8:36

You know that

8:38

same? He's walking

8:40

along one day along

8:42

the beach and he

8:45

found a piece of

8:47

wood washed by the

8:49

sea for many

8:51

many many many

8:54

years piece of

8:56

wood which looked

8:58

like a human

9:00

head with face

9:02

and polished

9:06

wood, and he took

9:08

it home and

9:10

put it on

9:13

a mantelpiece and

9:15

said, what a

9:17

beautiful thing that

9:19

is, I'm glad I've

9:22

found it. And as

9:24

he looked at it,

9:27

week after week, one

9:29

day he put flowers.

9:35

and began to

9:37

worship it. And by

9:40

some misfortune, by

9:42

the maid or

9:45

somebody, by

9:47

misfortune burnt it,

9:49

push it in the

9:51

fire, burnt it. He

9:54

came to me and

9:56

explained to me the

9:58

whole thing. and

10:01

he was literally

10:03

a grown-up man

10:06

in tears. You

10:08

understand what I'm

10:11

saying? There was

10:14

his certainty in

10:16

a piece of wood.

10:18

So, where do you

10:20

seek it? If you

10:23

don't seek it

10:25

anywhere outside you...

10:34

Then, what happens?

10:36

You understand my

10:39

question? Apply it

10:41

to yourself. We're sharing

10:44

this thing together. What

10:46

happens if you don't

10:49

seek certainty in anything

10:51

that thought has created?

10:54

In God, in illumination,

10:56

you know, in the

10:59

whole thing. So

11:08

you don't ask for

11:10

a certain thing. I

11:12

don't know if you've

11:14

followed. You've asked

11:17

there and you've

11:19

found none. And

11:21

you're going to

11:23

ask if there

11:25

is here, inside

11:28

your brain, your mind,

11:30

your heart. And you

11:33

know your brain

11:35

is volatile. moving,

11:38

changing, adjusting, breaking

11:40

one pattern, taking

11:43

another pattern. The same

11:45

phenomena which was out

11:48

there is happening inside.

11:50

I wonder if you

11:53

understand all this. So

11:55

the moment you

11:57

don't seek certainty,

11:59

certainty. That means

12:02

you have

12:05

really stopped

12:08

seeking

12:10

any

12:12

kind

12:14

of

12:16

permanency.

12:18

In yourself

12:22

or in there,

12:25

if you have

12:27

sought. Inward, and

12:30

you discover it,

12:33

it's the same

12:35

thing. Can I

12:38

trust myself? I

12:40

can, when I'm

12:42

doing a technical

12:45

work. But can

12:47

I trust

12:49

myself? Myself,

12:51

which has been

12:54

put together by

12:56

thought? And

12:59

your thought has discovered

13:01

there's no trust

13:03

there. You follow?

13:05

It's the same

13:07

movement. So when

13:09

you don't seek

13:12

certainty, there's something

13:14

far greater than

13:17

certainty. The

13:31

second extract is

13:33

from Christian reality's

13:36

fifth talk in Madras

13:38

1964 and is titled

13:41

Trust and Faith have

13:43

no value. Our life is

13:45

a torture. We try to

13:47

cover it up by words,

13:50

by feeling, by escapes, by

13:52

every form of

13:55

so-called religious as

13:57

well as intellectual

13:59

acts. But these

14:01

do not

14:04

cover our

14:06

inward battle,

14:08

our inward

14:11

frustrations, our

14:13

loneliness, deep

14:15

sorrows, and

14:17

the sense

14:20

of being

14:22

completely isolated.

14:28

We want to

14:30

be secure, not

14:32

only physically, but

14:34

emotionally. We want

14:37

companionship. We want

14:39

somebody on whom

14:41

we can rely

14:43

completely. You know

14:46

whom one has

14:48

complete trust, faith,

14:50

a sense of

14:52

intimate, endless contact

14:54

with another human

14:57

being. And

15:01

we seek security,

15:04

not only in

15:06

another human being

15:09

through relationship, but

15:11

also we want

15:13

security in our

15:16

ideas, in our

15:18

beliefs, in the

15:21

way of our

15:23

life. We don't

15:26

want to be

15:28

wrong. We want

15:31

to tread the

15:33

right power. whatever

15:36

that may mean.

15:38

We look to

15:41

somebody to tell

15:43

us what to

15:46

do. We have

15:48

authorities and infinite

15:51

lot of tradition.

15:53

And we have

15:56

to live with

15:58

all this. level,

16:01

emotional level, physical

16:03

level, at a

16:06

psychological level of

16:09

loneliness, emptiness, sense

16:11

of despair. We have

16:14

to live with ill

16:16

health and infinite boredom

16:18

with life. Going

16:21

to the office every day

16:23

of your life for

16:25

the next 40 years,

16:27

or 50 years. You

16:29

have been to the

16:32

office for 40 years

16:34

doing the same thing

16:36

over and over again.

16:38

And at the end

16:40

of one's life, there

16:43

is nothing left.

16:45

One has burnt out.

16:48

Or one begins

16:50

life with

16:52

certain convictions.

16:58

certain formulas.

17:01

And one

17:03

has great

17:06

intentions, but

17:08

the life about

17:10

us gradually

17:13

squeezes out all

17:15

the energy, the

17:18

vitality, the

17:20

clarity, the

17:22

clear perception.

17:25

And we are

17:27

left. empty, lonely,

17:30

in despair

17:33

and in sorrow.

17:35

This is our

17:37

life, actual,

17:40

everyday life.

17:43

And realizing

17:46

that, we

17:48

try to find

17:51

something to

17:53

find something transcendental,

17:56

beyond. Far

17:59

away which has

18:01

nothing whatever to

18:04

do with our

18:06

daily life. The

18:09

code, the Upanishas,

18:11

the Gita, the

18:13

Bible, the Saints,

18:16

the Saviors, and

18:18

so on, away

18:21

from this actual

18:23

daily misery, the

18:26

greater the neurosis.

18:28

And most people,

18:31

religious people, are

18:33

neurotic. Because their

18:36

life is here.

18:38

And they try

18:41

to have ideals

18:43

in sex, go

18:45

to church, temples,

18:48

temples. to escape

18:50

from this daily

18:53

torture, daily travail

18:55

of life. This

18:58

is a fact.

19:00

I'm only describing

19:03

it, perhaps not

19:05

too clearly, but

19:08

that's our life.

19:10

And unless we

19:13

change here in

19:15

our daily life.

19:18

in our outlooks,

19:20

in our activities,

19:22

in our ways

19:25

of thought, feeling.

19:27

For this is

19:30

reality, not the

19:32

other. The other

19:35

is merely ideas

19:37

of someone who

19:40

said something or

19:42

other many centuries

19:45

ago. And it's

19:47

no good repeating

19:50

what they said.

19:53

What they said or what

19:55

the modern philosopher says or

19:57

try to conform to

19:59

modern philosophy, or

20:02

go back

20:04

to ten

20:06

thousand years and

20:08

revive the

20:10

dead past, which

20:13

we call unfortunately culture. Culture

20:17

is something that grows,

20:19

nourishes, a thing that

20:21

nourishes, nourishes growth, functions,

20:23

moods. It isn't a

20:25

dead thing. But

20:29

apparently in this country we

20:31

are very fond of this

20:33

deadly culture. We

20:37

try to revive it through

20:39

dance, through song, through music,

20:41

through the temple, through

20:43

the various priests, but

20:45

it doesn't work. Therefore

20:50

when it doesn't work we don't abandon

20:52

it and

20:55

come to reality and see

20:57

if we can't transform the

20:59

reality, That is, the

21:01

living, to

21:04

bring about

21:06

a simplicity which is

21:08

the essence of harmony.

21:14

We are incapable.

21:17

so we look, we search,

21:19

we want to find somebody tell

21:22

us what to do. and

21:28

you put your faith in those people. And

21:33

faith and trust

21:36

has no value

21:38

– you may trust a doctor, because

21:42

he has experience. But the

21:44

other man's experience in

21:46

matters of the psyche and

21:48

life of inward life

21:50

has no meaning at all.

21:55

And apparently we can't let that

21:57

go. And

22:00

we have to

22:03

let it go

22:06

completely, because we

22:08

have to stand

22:11

alone. And that's

22:14

one of the

22:17

greatest fears we

22:19

have. Fear being

22:22

the feeling of

22:25

uncertainty. The feeling

22:28

of danger. the

22:32

apprehension of something

22:35

we don't know.

22:38

The third extract

22:41

is from the

22:44

second talk in

22:47

Bombay 1962 and

22:50

is titled There

22:53

is Nothing You

22:56

Can Trust. We

23:00

are not doing propaganda.

23:03

We are not

23:05

trying to convince you

23:07

of anything. Because a

23:10

mind that is convinced

23:13

that has come to

23:15

a conclusion is a

23:18

dead mind. But the

23:21

fact is, there is

23:23

nothing that you can

23:26

trust. And that's a

23:29

terrible fact. whether you

23:31

like it or

23:33

not. Psychologically, there is

23:36

nothing in the world

23:39

that you can put

23:41

your faith, your trust,

23:44

your belief in. Neither

23:47

your gods nor

23:49

your sons can save

23:51

you, can bring you

23:54

psychological certainty. And you

23:57

have to accept. that

24:01

you can trust

24:03

in absolutely

24:06

nothing. That's

24:08

a scientific

24:10

fact, as

24:12

well as a

24:15

psychological fact. Because

24:18

your leaders,

24:20

religious and

24:22

political, your

24:25

books, sacred

24:27

and profane,

24:30

Everything has

24:32

failed because

24:34

you are

24:36

still confused

24:39

in misery,

24:41

in conflict. So

24:43

that is an

24:46

absolute undeniable

24:48

fact. And

24:51

we are

24:53

going to

24:55

examine... one

24:59

of the

25:01

major psychological

25:03

social structure

25:05

which is authority

25:08

And if there

25:10

is time we

25:12

are going to

25:14

Find out for

25:16

ourselves what it

25:18

is to love

25:30

We are going to

25:33

question experience. A

25:35

mind that is seeking

25:37

experience is in immature

25:39

mind. The mind that

25:42

is seeking experience mechanically,

25:44

technologically, technologically, is

25:47

still in immature

25:50

mind technologically,

25:52

technologically, technologically,

25:54

is still

25:56

in immature

25:59

mind. It can

26:01

take on. But as

26:03

a human being,

26:05

as a mature,

26:08

full, rich human

26:10

being, technological knowledge

26:13

does not

26:15

give that.

26:18

Nor experience.

26:20

Because what

26:22

is experience

26:24

based on?

26:26

What is

26:28

experience? of,

26:30

is the response to

26:33

a challenge? However

26:35

little, however great.

26:37

When you see those

26:39

crows flying, that's an

26:42

experience. When the

26:44

world is in

26:46

a crisis and you

26:49

respond to that

26:51

crisis, that response

26:54

is experience is

26:57

experience. When

26:59

you call with your

27:01

wife and your husband,

27:03

that's an experience.

27:06

When you see a palm

27:08

tree, everything is an experience.

27:10

And we are

27:13

questioning that experience.

27:15

And I say a mind that

27:18

is a, that merely experiences

27:20

and accumulates is

27:23

an immature mind.

27:30

And the mind

27:32

that is beyond

27:35

the above

27:37

experience is

27:40

the free mind,

27:42

is the new

27:45

mind, is the

27:48

young mind. So,

27:51

experience, the translation

27:53

of every challenge

27:56

is experience.

28:00

And the translation

28:03

of the challenge and

28:05

response is based on

28:08

our conditioning, on your

28:10

previous knowledge, on the

28:13

past, on the tradition.

28:15

You don't experience something

28:17

new, you cannot.

28:20

You're always translates in

28:22

something new in terms

28:25

of the old. in

28:30

terms of your tradition, in

28:32

terms of what you already know,

28:34

what you have gathered, what

28:37

you have accumulated, what

28:39

you have stood up, the

28:42

past. The past dictates, shapes,

28:44

the response. I insult you,

28:46

or I flatter you, that

28:48

you remember. And when you

28:50

meet me next time,

28:52

you respond according to

28:55

that insult or to

28:57

that flat. That is

29:00

an experience, that is

29:02

based on knowledge.

29:04

And that knowledge,

29:06

that past becomes

29:09

the authority.

29:11

And according

29:13

to that

29:15

experience, according to

29:18

that knowledge, we

29:21

shape our life, our

29:23

thought our thought, And

29:28

when you question

29:31

that experience,

29:33

that authority

29:36

based on

29:38

experience, then

29:40

you have

29:42

nothing left.

29:45

When you

29:47

question the

29:49

every experience,

29:51

whether the

29:53

experience of

29:55

a Christian

29:57

saint. of

30:03

a Hindu monk, a religious

30:05

man, when you question that what

30:07

he sees, his visions, his ideas

30:09

are the result of his

30:11

culture, of his past, they

30:17

are worthless,

30:21

they

30:24

have no meaning, they

30:26

are merely the projection of the

30:28

past, of what he has learnt,

30:30

how his mind has been

30:32

shaped by society. So,

30:43

knowledge accepts

30:49

the

30:51

technological knowledge, knowledge

30:54

of how to read and write,

30:56

knowledge of that kind, and

30:58

there is the psychological knowledge,

31:01

and we

31:04

say every

31:06

form of

31:09

psychological knowledge

31:11

prevents freedom, and

31:16

therefore there is

31:18

no individuality,

31:20

there is a continuity of

31:23

what has been, and

31:25

may be modified, But

31:27

it is still the structure

31:29

of what has been, which

31:31

is society. Please

31:39

follow all this,

31:41

so you

31:43

cannot trust what

31:45

you see, you experience,

31:47

what you know,

31:49

psychological. So

31:55

obedience has lost

31:58

its meaning. Authority

32:01

has no longer any

32:04

significance, except the authority

32:06

of law, which is

32:09

denied by the politicians

32:11

when it suits them.

32:13

They go to war

32:16

when it suits them.

32:18

They obey that law

32:20

when it suits them.

32:23

One moment, they are

32:25

pacifists. Next moment, they

32:28

are warmongous. So

32:32

you cannot rely,

32:35

you cannot trust

32:37

authority. And in

32:39

the very investigating,

32:42

in the very

32:44

process of investigating

32:46

authority, as we

32:49

are doing now,

32:51

you don't revolt

32:53

against authority of

32:56

the father-mother or

32:58

the psychological structure.

33:00

By the very

33:03

process of investigating

33:05

through that very

33:07

inquiry, your mind

33:10

begins to discipline.

33:12

Because to inquire,

33:14

to investigate, you

33:16

need a very

33:19

sharp mind, a

33:21

fearless mind. And

33:29

when mind is

33:32

no longer afraid,

33:34

no longer anxious,

33:37

no longer seeking

33:39

security, then out

33:42

of that comes

33:45

an extraordinary, extraordinary

33:47

discipline. Not the

33:50

discipline closed by

33:53

authority. not

33:57

the discipline posed by

33:59

society. by your girls,

34:02

by your teachers, nor

34:04

the discipline which

34:06

you have imposed

34:08

upon yourself, thinking

34:11

that you are

34:13

free, which is

34:16

really the continuity

34:18

of the psychological

34:21

enforcement of

34:23

society. Please

34:25

follow all this. when

34:30

you say I'll discipline

34:32

myself according to a

34:35

pattern, not said by and

34:37

by day, but my own

34:39

experience. Your own experience is

34:41

the result of your past,

34:44

your conditioning. So you

34:46

can't trust your discipline

34:48

because that discipline narrows

34:51

the mind, destroys the

34:53

mind, makes the mind,

34:55

brain, inadequate, dull, insensitive.

35:03

So by questioning,

35:06

inquiring, out

35:09

of that comes an

35:13

extraordinary discipline

35:15

in which there

35:18

is no enforcement,

35:21

in which there

35:23

is no imitation,

35:26

no conformity, because

35:29

there is no

35:34

when you understand

35:36

this, then out

35:38

of this understanding

35:40

there is love.

35:42

Because authority and

35:44

love can never

35:46

go together. Nor

35:49

attachment and love can

35:51

ever abide together.

35:54

But you are attached,

35:56

aren't you out your

35:58

family? to your

36:01

ideas, to your

36:03

gurus, to your

36:05

visions, to your

36:07

pugers, to money,

36:09

ten different things

36:11

you're attached to.

36:13

And yet you

36:15

talk about love.

36:17

To you, love

36:19

is security. And

36:21

how can a

36:23

mind that is

36:25

enforcing obedience? that

36:29

is educating the

36:31

whole world to

36:33

conform, that is

36:36

merely concerned with

36:38

the acquisition of

36:40

outward technological knowledge,

36:43

how can such

36:45

a mind love?

36:47

All that you

36:50

want is security.

36:52

For yourself and

36:54

for your children.

36:59

That's all

37:02

you're interested.

37:05

And to

37:07

see that

37:10

they conform.

37:13

Now love

37:16

is not

37:18

attachment. Love

37:21

has no

37:24

motive. It

37:27

requires enormous work, psychological

37:29

work, not sitting under

37:32

a tree or doing

37:34

pouge or disagreeing yourself.

37:37

That's not work. That's

37:39

immature childish clafings. But

37:42

to deeply inquire into

37:44

yourself, go to the

37:47

very end of that

37:49

inquiry. And out of

37:52

that freedom, there is

37:54

love. What

37:58

you say? Most

38:00

of us are

38:03

satisfied to live

38:05

superficially. Most of

38:07

us are satisfied

38:10

to earn a livelihood,

38:12

if we can, get

38:14

a job and rot.

38:17

Most of us are

38:19

satisfied with our

38:21

bank accounts if you

38:24

are rich. And

38:26

we prattle about

38:28

God and Puja

38:30

and all the rest

38:32

of the rubbish. So

38:35

our hearts are empty,

38:37

made empty by

38:39

a dull, stupid

38:41

mind, which only

38:43

thinks in terms

38:46

of authority and

38:48

obedience. So the

38:50

breaking down. of

38:52

the psychological structure

38:55

of society, which

38:58

is your brain, which

39:01

is you. That's absolutely

39:03

necessary for a

39:06

man who is really dent

39:08

on finding out the immeasurement.

39:13

And if there is

39:15

one, if there is

39:17

such an immeasurable thing.

39:24

So authority

39:26

which breeds

39:28

power is evil. I

39:31

mean as evil

39:33

as the snake

39:35

because it is

39:37

as deadly poisonous

39:40

as the man

39:42

in power in

39:45

possession and

39:47

prestige. A

39:51

religious mind has nothing to do with

39:53

such people. No

40:02

rich man can

40:04

come to know

40:06

what love is

40:08

if his God

40:10

is still his

40:12

money. And unfortunately

40:14

in this country,

40:16

the people in

40:18

power and the

40:20

rich people ship,

40:23

the Indian mind,

40:25

are shaping the

40:27

mind. There is

40:29

nobody who... breaks

40:31

through all the

40:33

structure. We are

40:35

all conformists. Yes,

40:37

sirs. Not one

40:39

says no. And

40:41

the saying no

40:43

is not a

40:45

revolt, but the

40:47

understanding, psychological understanding

40:49

of this whole

40:51

structure which has

40:54

built the present

40:56

society. So

40:59

a man who would

41:02

be free, who would

41:04

understand what is the

41:07

real, he must break

41:09

through the psychological structure

41:12

of society. That's the

41:14

first thing to do.

41:16

Not Puja. Not go

41:19

to temple, churches, and

41:21

all the rest of

41:24

it. They have lost

41:26

their value completely. You

41:29

cannot put your trust

41:31

in any one of

41:34

them. You must stand

41:36

completely alone. And there

41:39

is beauty in that

41:41

aloneness. For that aloneness

41:44

is love. And it's

41:46

only in that aloneness,

41:48

there is the possibility

41:51

of uncovering that which

41:53

is not namable. The

42:03

fourth extract

42:07

is from

42:09

the first

42:12

question and

42:15

answer meeting

42:18

in Bombay

42:21

1984 and

42:23

is titled,

42:26

What is

42:28

faith? What is

42:30

faith? Faith. I have

42:33

faith in my wife.

42:36

She won't betray

42:38

me. I have faith

42:40

in my business

42:43

and so faith.

42:45

Whole Christian done

42:48

is all the

42:50

religious structure

42:53

and nature of

42:56

Christianity is based

42:59

on faith. And

43:03

there they do not

43:05

question. They

43:08

do not have

43:10

doubt, skepticism.

43:14

If you have faith

43:16

in God, then you

43:19

cannot possibly

43:22

allow any

43:24

form of

43:27

skepticism, doubt

43:29

to enter. But in

43:32

the Hindu world and

43:34

in the Buddhist world,

43:37

doubt is one of

43:39

the necessary qualities

43:42

to cleanse the

43:44

brain. You have

43:46

faith, haven't you, all

43:48

of you, believe. Have you

43:51

ever questioned, haven't

43:53

you, all of

43:55

you, believe? Have you

43:58

ever questioned? of

44:00

faith and your

44:03

illusions, or you

44:05

just accept them.

44:08

When you have

44:10

faith, you put

44:13

aside altogether any

44:15

question of investigation.

44:18

Suppose I believe

44:20

in God, believe,

44:23

have faith in

44:25

God, Then

44:29

every question, every

44:31

doubt, must be

44:34

set aside. Because

44:36

my belief in

44:38

God is based

44:40

on fear. I

44:42

don't know what

44:44

the world is.

44:46

Somebody has created

44:48

it, and I

44:51

like to think

44:53

God has created

44:55

it. The scientists

44:57

say there is

44:59

no such thing

45:01

as God. It

45:03

is a natural

45:05

growth of evolution

45:08

from the cell

45:10

into a very,

45:12

very, very complex

45:14

cells of the

45:16

human, my brain.

45:18

So, why do

45:20

we have faith?

45:22

Isn't that very

45:25

restricting, narrowing down?

45:28

limiting and doesn't faith

45:31

divide people, Christians faith

45:34

and Islamic faith and

45:36

the Hindus who probably

45:39

have no faith about

45:41

anything at all. And

45:44

so there is constant

45:47

conflict between them all.

45:49

You see, there is

45:52

also another complex question

45:54

involved in this. Why

45:57

do we have ideas?

46:02

The whole communist

46:04

world is based

46:07

on the theoretical

46:10

supposition of Marx,

46:12

Stalin and so on,

46:15

Lenin. They are their

46:17

gods. And they believe

46:19

in what they have

46:22

said, as Christians believe

46:24

in what the Bible

46:27

says, or the Quran.

46:30

or you with your

46:32

gaita, open issues or

46:35

something else, you all

46:38

are, you are all

46:40

absorbing what the books

46:43

say. But you never,

46:45

for yourself, question

46:47

the whole thing.

46:49

Because the moment

46:52

you question, doubt,

46:54

you have to

46:56

rely on yourself.

46:59

and therefore you're

47:01

frightened. Therefore much

47:03

better have faith

47:05

in something illusory,

47:07

something that doesn't

47:09

really actually exist.

47:11

But if you

47:13

know for yourself,

47:15

I have to understand

47:18

my own life. I have to

47:20

see if it is possible

47:22

to bring about a

47:24

great revolution in my

47:27

life. Then

47:30

you start

47:33

from there.

47:35

But if you

47:38

have faith in

47:41

something,

47:44

you are living

47:47

in an extraordinary

47:55

illusory world.

47:59

and is titled faith and

48:01

suffering. Man has

48:04

lived with suffering

48:06

through centuries upon

48:08

centuries and apparently

48:11

he has never

48:13

been able to

48:16

end it. That's

48:18

one of our

48:20

accustomed ways of

48:23

bearing with something

48:25

unpleasant. something

48:28

that gives us

48:30

great pain and

48:32

never finding a

48:35

solution for suffering.

48:37

There are many

48:39

various ways of

48:41

suffering, not only

48:44

loss of those

48:46

who think you

48:48

love through death.

48:50

Suffering is also

48:53

losing a position,

48:55

poverty. injustice, the

48:57

sense of incompleteness

48:59

in oneself, the

49:01

utter state of

49:04

ignorance that man

49:06

lives in, though

49:08

he has accumulated

49:10

vast knowledge about

49:13

the heavens and

49:15

the earth and

49:17

matter and technology

49:19

is still ignorant

49:21

and that also

49:24

breeds great. So

49:27

we live with suffering.

49:29

And we have accepted

49:31

it. We've never said

49:33

can it end. And

49:35

there are those who

49:37

give all kinds of

49:39

explanations how to go

49:41

beyond suffering, have faith

49:43

in God, faith in

49:45

your Savior, faith in

49:47

the Buddha, faith in

49:49

the Buddha, faith in

49:51

Christian or whatever it

49:53

is. So

49:58

we have born

50:01

and suffering

50:03

endlessly. And

50:05

we are

50:08

asking if

50:11

suffering can

50:14

end, not

50:17

temporarily, completely.

50:19

So the mind,

50:22

which has struggled

50:25

in pain, has

50:28

a states

50:32

different

50:35

movement.

50:37

A mind that

50:40

suffers cannot

50:43

think clearly.

50:46

A mind

50:49

that suffers

50:51

cannot have

50:54

love. A

50:56

mind that

50:58

suffers, A

51:02

mind that suffers has

51:05

no relationship with

51:07

another. However intimate

51:09

they may live

51:11

together. A mind

51:13

that's suffering has

51:15

no relationship. Suffering

51:17

becomes an isolation.

51:20

There is not

51:22

only a personal

51:24

suffering, but also

51:26

there is universal

51:28

mankind suffers. Suffers.

51:31

the shedding of

51:33

tears of millions

51:36

and millions and

51:38

millions of people.

51:40

The man who

51:42

wants to fulfil

51:44

in ambition wants

51:46

to be a

51:48

great man and

51:50

is incapable, therefore

51:52

he suffers. And

51:54

we have found comforting

51:58

solutions. for suffering,

52:02

so when one

52:04

suffers one seeks comfort, and

52:08

that comfort may be in actuality or

52:11

in illusion, in

52:16

some romantic

52:19

illusory fancy. And

52:25

we are asking, if

52:27

there is an end to suffering, sorrow, don't

52:32

say, please, if you are a Buddhist, have

52:34

we ever heard this before? The

52:37

Buddha said –

52:40

which means what?

52:42

You have merely

52:44

repeating what someone else

52:46

has said, but

52:51

you haven't solved the problem. Merely

52:56

quoting somebody, however

52:59

great he may be,

53:01

is not the solution

53:03

of suffering. So

53:08

please, find

53:11

out if sorrow can

53:13

end. Without

53:18

the ending of sorrow

53:20

there is no compassion. Why

53:30

does one suffer? You

53:39

all know what suffering

53:41

is, but

53:45

we have never asked why, and

53:48

gone into it, not

53:51

depending on anybody, not

53:55

depending on the Buddha or

53:57

what he says or what

53:59

say. Another religious leader has

54:01

said in another country, put

54:03

all that aside, because

54:06

what they have

54:08

said may be true,

54:11

or may not

54:13

be true, but you

54:15

as a human

54:18

being suffer. And

54:21

if you do not

54:23

solve that problem, end it,

54:25

resolve it, your

54:29

life becomes more

54:31

and more mechanical, more

54:34

and more repetitive, and

54:38

rather superficial.

54:43

Your life – you

54:45

may repeat or read

54:47

sacred books and repeat

54:49

the sacred statements, but

54:52

your life becomes superficial

54:54

more and more and

54:56

more, which is what

54:58

is happening. So

55:03

it is important, if

55:05

we will, to enquire

55:07

sorrow ends. What

55:10

is sorrow? Is

55:16

it the loss of

55:18

something, the

55:22

loss of a

55:24

job, the loss of

55:26

your so -called loved

55:28

ones, what

55:41

is sorrow? Is

55:44

it self -pity, examine

55:48

it please as we

55:51

are talking, the

55:53

speaker is only a mirror, expressing

55:56

that which is

55:58

pain. in you,

56:01

the book, and when

56:04

you look at the

56:06

mirror, the mirror is

56:09

not important. But what

56:12

you see in the

56:14

mirror is important. Then

56:17

you can throw away

56:20

the mirror, destroy it,

56:22

break it up, otherwise

56:25

you make the mirror

56:28

into an image. the

56:34

loss of

56:37

someone, the

56:40

loneliness of

56:43

man, the grief

56:46

that comes

56:49

having

56:51

no

56:53

relationship

56:55

with another.

56:59

And ultimately,

57:02

death. As

57:08

we said, is

57:10

it self-pity? Examiner,

57:12

don't be shy

57:15

of these things.

57:17

One has to

57:19

be very precise

57:21

in examining

57:24

these things. Is

57:27

it self-pity? The

57:29

loss of someone

57:31

in whom you

57:34

have... put all your

57:36

affection, your care, your

57:38

so-called, all that in

57:41

someone and that

57:43

someone dies, goes

57:45

away, runs away, rejects

57:47

you and you feel

57:50

so utterly miserable.

57:52

That's one form of

57:55

grief. The other? Your

58:02

mind has

58:04

become so

58:06

traditional, so

58:08

repetitive, mechanical,

58:10

and you

58:12

can't see something

58:15

immediately, something

58:18

that's true

58:20

instantly. That's

58:23

also a great

58:25

sorrow. And as

58:27

one grows older.

58:32

disease, the

58:35

body withering,

58:37

and the

58:39

mind slowly

58:42

losing its

58:45

capacity. Some

58:47

of these are

58:50

the factors.

58:52

And looking

58:54

at all these

58:57

are the factors.

59:03

You'll have to

59:05

find out what's your

59:07

reaction to these factors,

59:10

your reaction, how you

59:13

respond. That is, you

59:15

want power, you want

59:18

money, you want position,

59:21

you want justice, you

59:23

want a social revolution.

59:26

You want to find,

59:29

if you are really

59:31

serious, You want to

59:34

find that which is

59:36

timeless, which is

59:39

truth. And a

59:41

mind that is

59:43

confused, uncertain, insecure,

59:46

is always suffering.

59:48

So is it

59:51

also a factor

59:53

that the mind

59:55

has never found

59:58

security? One

1:00:03

may have

1:00:05

security in a

1:00:07

job, one may have

1:00:10

a security in

1:00:12

your family, which

1:00:15

I doubt, which

1:00:17

one doubts always,

1:00:19

a security in

1:00:22

your belief. There

1:00:24

is no security

1:00:27

in belief whatsoever

1:00:29

or in faith.

1:00:32

destroys faith,

1:00:34

doubt tears

1:00:36

apart all

1:00:38

belief. But

1:00:40

man at the end

1:00:43

of all this explanation

1:00:46

is suffering, not

1:00:48

only for himself,

1:00:51

but also sees

1:00:54

the world with

1:00:56

all its misery,

1:00:59

ugliness, violence, wars,

1:01:02

when one sees

1:01:04

all that. That's

1:01:07

also great sorrow.

1:01:09

Can sorrow end? The speaker

1:01:12

says it can. You cannot

1:01:14

accept what he says

1:01:16

ever. He's not an

1:01:18

authority. He's not a guru.

1:01:21

He's not a guru. He's

1:01:23

not a guru. He's

1:01:25

not a guru. He's

1:01:28

not a guru. He's

1:01:30

not a guru. He's

1:01:32

not your, you're not

1:01:35

his followers. The follower

1:01:37

destroys the guru,

1:01:39

and the guru

1:01:42

destroys the follower.

1:01:44

So, can you, can

1:01:46

one have, can one

1:01:49

see the nature of

1:01:52

suffering and not run

1:01:54

away from it? Not

1:01:59

right to find comfort,

1:02:01

not try to

1:02:03

rationalize it. I

1:02:05

say, well, last

1:02:07

life I did this,

1:02:10

therefore I am paying

1:02:12

for it. You know

1:02:14

all those kind of

1:02:17

tricks that man plays,

1:02:19

which all means can

1:02:21

you remain with that

1:02:24

suffering without any

1:02:27

movement of thought? Thought

1:02:29

comes into being and says,

1:02:31

I must find a way

1:02:34

out of this, suffering still

1:02:36

remains. You are merely

1:02:38

running away from it.

1:02:41

But if you remain

1:02:43

completely immoveably with

1:02:46

that thing which you

1:02:48

call suffering, then you

1:02:50

will see that suffering

1:02:52

completely ends and there is

1:02:55

a totally different

1:02:57

begin.