0:00

I'm with Catherine D. Everybody

0:02

welcome back to Walkins Welcome.

0:04

It's our yearly predictions and

0:07

and looking back. How are

0:09

you feeling about things today on this

0:11

day in January? I agree

0:13

with everyone that things are

0:15

going to get weirder and

0:17

I don't think I personally

0:19

or frankly anyone else is

0:22

prepared. In what way do you

0:24

think things are going to get weirder?

0:27

Well, the most, the most basic

0:29

way is we've been living in

0:31

sort of like the social media

0:34

era for a long time. I mean,

0:36

for like, I want to say like

0:38

pretty much 15 years, maybe

0:40

a little bit longer. And we're

0:42

moving out of the digital, yeah,

0:45

it's been a minute, right? And

0:47

we're, we're moving out of the

0:49

digital age. Was what, 2006, 2007?

0:51

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, we're moving out

0:53

of the digital age as we

0:55

know it into a new.

0:58

technological epoch. So that is a-

1:00

And I don't- In what respect,

1:02

can you elaborate on that

1:04

a little? Like moving out

1:06

of it in the way that

1:09

they're less separate or

1:11

that AI is going to change

1:13

it again or- There's a

1:15

lot of dimensions too, I

1:17

mean all of it, right? I

1:20

think, first of all, the

1:22

way social media functions is

1:24

radically changing. right? This idea

1:26

of like an influencer

1:28

or public intellectual or talking

1:30

head or whatever you want

1:33

to call it I think is going away.

1:35

And we've had we've been living

1:37

through this like cycle where either

1:40

people come from legacy media

1:42

or another industry or that

1:44

you know they come from Hollywood

1:46

or they organically build a build

1:48

momentum and You know, we know

1:51

who these figureheads are, right? And they

1:53

cycle out every five years. Some people

1:55

have like, they ebb and flow, like

1:57

they'll go dormant for a little bit.

2:00

They come. back with the rebrand, they're

2:02

even more powerful than ever, right? There's

2:04

a lot of cases like this,

2:06

but it's pretty predictable, right? The

2:09

trends come and go, sometimes the

2:11

left is sort of, you know,

2:13

cool, and there's a window for

2:16

left-wing media, other times it's the

2:18

right's turn, right? But these cycles

2:20

of momentum themselves kind

2:22

of nascent, right? Because before

2:25

that we had traditional media.

2:27

I think all of it's going away.

2:29

Right, and I don't quite know what's

2:31

next. I think a lot of people

2:33

were saying that, you know, the

2:35

internet's so fragmented and there's

2:38

no monoculture and I always

2:40

disagreed with that quite a bit.

2:42

I mean, I always thought something like

2:44

wokeness, right, to have succeeded in

2:46

the way it did, there needed

2:48

to be a cultural element. And so

2:50

there was a monoculture, it just

2:52

didn't present itself in the same

2:55

way it might have in like

2:57

1975, like 1975, right. But now I

2:59

think those people who are saying, oh,

3:01

we're so fragmented, are right. I think

3:03

there's really going to be

3:05

no monoculture. There's going to be

3:07

no celebrity in the way that

3:10

we've understood celebrity for the last

3:12

little while. And who knows what

3:14

the implications of more adoption

3:16

of AI is going to look like. I

3:19

think it's, well, one, people are obviously

3:21

going to lose their jobs. But

3:23

there's other cultural effects that I

3:25

think that cultural effects that I

3:27

think. you know, like, what does

3:29

ownership mean in the age of

3:32

AI? There's all these, like, little,

3:34

little questions that, like, keep popping

3:36

up for me, and, yeah, I

3:38

think stuff is about to get

3:41

really weird. There was something too

3:43

yesterday when the whole deep seek,

3:45

you know, thing popped off and

3:48

everybody was talking about it and

3:50

a friend of mine and I were

3:52

talking and he was like, you know,

3:54

ultimately... There's going to be this question

3:57

of like, how do you tear off

3:59

an LLC? You can't. You know,

4:01

there's, how are you gonna do

4:03

that? There's, so I do think

4:06

when it comes to the AI

4:08

and like you said, ownership and

4:10

how they're scraping the internet of

4:13

all the content that everybody's uploaded

4:15

for 10 years to kind of

4:18

train on. Do they, will they

4:20

even need it? You can, you

4:22

can kind of train on, I

4:25

guess the more. AI trains on

4:27

itself, the more it becomes gibberish,

4:29

so at least now. So that's

4:32

somewhat, it's like copying a copy,

4:34

a copy, you lose quality every

4:36

single time. So there's something kind

4:39

of that gives me some hope

4:41

that there will still be a

4:43

need for original stuff, but you

4:46

know, somebody, I was reading somebody

4:48

saying that this is going to

4:50

be like the era of Slop.

4:53

Like, slap, writing, slap, TV, slap,

4:55

everything. Right. Well, I mean, look,

4:57

I think the white pillows, you're

5:00

right. So there becomes a market

5:02

for things with a human touch,

5:04

right? There are people, people want

5:07

to connect with people, and people

5:09

have cashier. And I think you

5:11

already see this a little bit

5:14

on Substock, which I've like called

5:16

the Etsy for words, right? You

5:18

know, it's like Etsy stands against

5:21

Amazon. Although Etsy now is flooded

5:23

with weird shit from China, it's

5:25

like really strange. But I find

5:28

that on Substock, people are writing

5:30

these like impossibly long essays that

5:32

are just like so like breathlessly

5:35

confessional, just filled with like personal

5:37

details. And I don't know that

5:40

anyone's reading it. fire hose of

5:42

humanity that is in contrast to

5:44

slop, right? Like a real person

5:47

made this. And I don't know

5:49

that anyone's actually reading it or

5:51

engaging with it or engaging with

5:54

it. that as an object created

5:56

by human. Yeah, I think that

5:58

there will be, you know, now

6:01

they have all these Instagram influences

6:03

that are all 100% AI and

6:05

they're selling things and I don't

6:08

know that that will be as

6:10

popular as people think, although I'm

6:12

not sure that maybe right now

6:15

for those of us who remember

6:17

the difference, but if you can't

6:19

tell the difference and you never

6:22

knew there was a difference, I

6:24

guess it won't matter. But my

6:26

husband was telling me about an

6:29

interesting study around AI therapy and

6:31

he was saying People get benefits

6:33

from it until they realize that

6:36

it's AI and then drastically The

6:38

benefits go down and so they've

6:40

done these studies that the minute

6:43

they find out that it's not

6:45

an actual human that they're interacting

6:47

with it almost loses all of

6:50

the benefits that they were getting

6:52

because what What they want is

6:54

real human connection and I had

6:57

Dr. Shedler on this podcast and

6:59

he is a therapist, a psychotherapist

7:02

and he was saying, he said

7:04

something really interesting that has stuck

7:06

with me ever since he was

7:09

on the podcast and he said,

7:11

you can't scale human relationships. That

7:13

is one-on-one. It takes time. It

7:16

takes trust. It takes being uncomfortable.

7:18

There's no way to scale that.

7:20

You can be a therapist and

7:23

you can try and do better

7:25

help and you can try and

7:27

scale these. You could maybe be

7:30

a therapist and write a book

7:32

and that's a way you can

7:34

scale what you've learned. But in

7:37

terms of the actual human connection,

7:39

you just can't scale that. And

7:41

I think this is a bottleneck

7:44

that we will run into. I

7:46

think people are really good at

7:48

deluding themselves, right? Like people can,

7:51

you know, I talk to a

7:53

lot of people who are in

7:55

relationships with basically imaginary friends, purely

7:58

fictional characters. It's become like a

8:00

real recurring theme of my work

8:02

in the last few years. And

8:05

what that's shown me is, you

8:07

know, where there's a will, there's

8:09

a way. Often people don't even

8:12

need a chat pot, right? And

8:14

even with a chat pot, it

8:16

doesn't matter how short the memory

8:19

is. Their imagination fills in the

8:21

white space. So I think it's,

8:24

it would be night, like, this

8:26

doctor might be, you know, I'm

8:28

going on anecdotal anecdotal. data, but

8:31

I think we will be really

8:33

good at fooling ourselves and the

8:35

people who aren't good at fooling

8:38

themselves will suffer. And I almost

8:40

wonder, and I discussed this on

8:42

my show recently, maybe it would

8:45

behoove us to just start anthropomorphizing

8:47

everything and say, you know, it's

8:49

inevitable, maybe we should just treat

8:52

objects with the respect we treat

8:54

a person, and maybe that will

8:56

make the transition a little easier.

8:59

The transition to, what, the The

9:01

transition to like an increasingly isolated,

9:03

you know, internet or digital rich

9:06

life, right, where like, you know,

9:08

customer service becomes interacting with AI

9:10

or like AI agents interacting with

9:13

another, right? Everything's delivered, everything's increasingly.

9:15

You know, we're all in our

9:17

little pods. I mean, the flip

9:20

side is, right? If this is

9:22

actually happening, then the counterculture will

9:24

be touching grass. Yeah, literally. You

9:27

already see that in Austin. And

9:29

it's interesting because it's led particularly

9:31

by people in tech. So they're

9:34

buying land. They're starting small schools.

9:36

They're really focused on in real

9:38

life community. They're learning how to

9:41

farm. They're teaching themselves. They have

9:43

chickens. This is so common, as

9:46

you know, in and around Austin,

9:48

and all the land around Austin.

9:50

And that is. That's kind of

9:53

interesting to me that these people

9:55

who kind of made all their

9:57

money creating this world that you're

10:00

talking about are now completely no

10:02

screens, you know, did you get

10:04

real tangible media? I've seen three

10:07

magazines launch in the past two

10:09

months, which is all these pretty

10:11

strange to me. There's so many

10:14

of them. Mm-hmm. Yeah, another one

10:16

coming out. I think a lot

10:18

of the, like, dissident culture, right?

10:21

I mean, I don't like that

10:23

word, but that's, you know, that's

10:25

what everyone knows it as. Trads,

10:28

even just magazine launches, right? Most

10:30

of them are right wing, which

10:32

I think is actually significant. This

10:35

is a reaction to technology and

10:37

a reaction to a life forged

10:39

on the internet. You know, I

10:42

think what people want to return

10:44

to is, you know, of course,

10:46

an era where things made sense

10:49

to them and things were more

10:51

predictable and less chaotic. a less

10:53

technologically saturated era, right? That's like

10:56

return is really about no computer.

10:58

Yeah. Like I often have this

11:00

fantasy of like going to Southeast

11:03

Asia. It's been like a theme

11:05

that I've written about a lot.

11:08

And I realize like why do

11:10

I actually I found I had

11:12

this realization while talking to Claude,

11:15

which is another chat bot. And

11:17

I was like, what is my

11:19

fixation? Like, I like the food,

11:22

I like the music, I like

11:24

the language, like, particularly with Cambodia.

11:26

And I took my lessons for

11:29

several years. And I realized, like,

11:31

in my mind, this isn't true.

11:33

This is just my own conception

11:36

of it. Like, if I went

11:38

to Cambodia, there's, I'm not on

11:40

the internet. But I'm like, creating

11:43

these, like, I want to go

11:45

somewhere where my conception of it

11:47

is not tainted by the internet.

11:50

But they're just smartphone, right? They

11:52

don't send you an email. No

11:54

one's trying to get in touch

11:57

with you. You're just like, you're

11:59

telling the land and... having babies

12:01

and you're otherwise occupied. And

12:03

posting about it on your

12:06

Instagram that has millions of

12:08

followers. Right, I mean, that's

12:10

the irony. No, you can't

12:12

escape the matrix. You can't. I,

12:14

when I went, Sri Lanka was

12:16

like that for me because their

12:19

grid was unstable. So we would

12:21

have rolling blackouts the whole time

12:23

I was there. The Wi-Fi was

12:25

very spotty if it was even

12:27

available at all. And I think

12:30

about, and this was 2013,

12:32

that I was there, and it

12:34

was so nice. It was just

12:36

so nice. Like, we woke up,

12:38

we walked on the beach, we

12:41

drank juice, it was very cheap,

12:43

so you could live very simply,

12:46

and I taught yoga at this,

12:48

like, place nearby, and volunteered

12:50

with kids in the village

12:52

and danced on the beach

12:55

at the beach at like

12:57

these parties. constantly had. It

12:59

was just a very weird,

13:02

you know, embodied experience

13:04

in general. I was thinking about

13:06

this, I've been thinking so much

13:08

about it because every morning I

13:11

pretty much wake up and I'm

13:13

like, I wish I was in

13:15

Sri Lanka because it was so

13:17

amazing and it wasn't the food

13:19

and the culture and the Indian

13:22

Ocean, which is by far the

13:24

sexiest ocean of all of them.

13:26

It was... My memories are

13:28

so tangible. They were so

13:30

real life sense oriented. I

13:33

remember one day we went

13:35

swimming after this rainstorm and

13:37

they were throwing the ocean

13:40

up into the skies flashing water

13:42

and it looked like gold

13:44

was raining down and there

13:46

were rainbows and it was

13:48

like you could touch, you

13:50

were swimming with turtles and

13:53

it was very. sensory. India

13:55

was the same. It was

13:57

a wildly and chaotic sensory

13:59

experience. and there's nothing

14:01

that's come close. I've never

14:03

had an experience online that

14:06

even comes close to anything

14:08

like that in real life. I

14:10

was talking with Liv Bory yesterday

14:13

about Burning Man and a

14:15

similar thing of just how

14:18

you're completely offline, you're no

14:20

contact with anybody, and you're,

14:23

it's hard and it's exhausting,

14:25

but it's also, you're so

14:27

embodied. And I wonder if there will,

14:30

if there will, maybe, maybe this is

14:32

it though. Maybe we're the last

14:34

generation that kind of remembers that.

14:36

I don't think so. I mean, I

14:38

think a lot of people as, as,

14:41

as you noted, are going to

14:43

rebel. I've noticed, like, on, like,

14:45

on sub-stack and, you know, I

14:48

mean, that sub-stack is representative friends.

14:50

I'm constantly seeing, like, like, people,

14:52

like, you know, they're leaving all

14:55

social media. There's a young woman

14:57

named August Lamb who wrote a

14:59

really interesting pamphlet. I think it was

15:02

like how to abandon your smartphone or

15:04

something like this. I don't think that's

15:06

the exact title, but that's the gist

15:09

of it. And there's a lot of

15:11

like tastemakers in particular are moving

15:13

towards this offline movement, this sort

15:15

of like log off movement. I mean,

15:18

the success of someone like Jonathan

15:20

Hite speaks to this, right. And I

15:22

think a lot of... people who are

15:24

sort of even in our spheres

15:26

are promoting a more offline life.

15:28

So I do think there is a

15:30

counterculture or movement. It will

15:32

be possible, not for everyone,

15:35

granted, but it will be

15:37

possible or there will be

15:39

an expression of it as we're already

15:41

seeing it play out, but I

15:43

don't think we'll be the last

15:46

one necessarily. Do you think that that

15:48

the youth are moving in that

15:50

direction though or I guess my...

15:52

feeling sometimes is that there is

15:54

a reaction to it, but I

15:56

wonder if it's just isolated and

15:58

I'm seeing smallpox. of it, whereas

16:01

maybe perhaps it's not as

16:03

big of a movement as

16:05

I think, and the real

16:07

movement is actually towards

16:09

this kind of transhuman

16:11

experience that. I think

16:14

it's bifurcated, it's both.

16:16

And I also think what we're

16:18

really seeing now is the

16:20

downstream effects of COVID lockdowns,

16:23

children. young adults who lost

16:25

huge chunks of their childhood

16:27

or adolescence and how that

16:29

destroyed them. I mean on the mild

16:31

end it's people who were fire-hosed with

16:34

the internet right because they had no

16:36

choice and I'm sure their parents thought

16:38

they were doing you know what the best they

16:40

could to keep them safe and they weren't

16:43

socializing and then on the more

16:45

extreme end I mean you hear

16:47

you know a lot of these

16:49

like horrifying stories of people who

16:51

couldn't leave abusive situations yeah because

16:53

like there's no mandated

16:55

reporters, they're not going

16:58

to school. They have no reprieve.

17:00

And that I think is

17:02

also going to influence people

17:05

wanting to log off. I think, you

17:07

know, what we'll see, you'll have

17:09

one group of people who

17:11

is deeply entrenched in a

17:14

mediated life and who

17:16

is very nihilistic and

17:18

becomes almost anti-human.

17:20

I think maybe as like

17:22

a third like dark horse

17:25

category, they'll be transhumanist to

17:27

embrace a technologically enabled

17:29

life. And then you have people who

17:32

are like, I can't do this anymore,

17:34

right? And on a spectrum, we'll

17:36

be logging off. I don't think

17:38

they'll become like Amish, right?

17:40

But they'll move away from

17:43

social media and and constantly

17:45

scrolling. Some of the things

17:47

I think will also see along

17:50

with this is like, where's

17:52

the news? Who's the news?

17:54

Right? The legacy media kind

17:56

of has to come back

17:58

and there's some. that's doing a

18:00

really good job and I think is sort

18:03

of helping to fill that void. You know,

18:05

I always shout out tablet, I always shout

18:07

out the free press. I mean, I think

18:09

they're really good examples of that.

18:11

Like even like Matt Taebi, his

18:13

name, I don't know if I'm

18:15

pronouncing correctly, sort of on like the

18:18

alt, like non-legacy media side. And

18:20

then like we might see something

18:22

like the Washington Post or the

18:24

New York Times regain the credibility

18:26

that they lost during COVID because

18:28

it's like. We can't be

18:30

just subscribe to like 50,000 newsletters

18:33

and like piecemeal put it together

18:35

and have all these like like

18:37

micro cult leaders who are like

18:40

it's in their version of the

18:42

news, right? It's just not

18:44

sustainable. I really want that

18:46

I think. And then it's like where

18:49

does local news fit in? You

18:51

know, it's like there's all these

18:53

questions. Yeah. So many questions

18:55

when it comes to the news.

18:57

I don't really know that Hollywood

19:00

feels the same way to me.

19:02

I mean, Hollywood was already

19:04

kind of experiencing a death

19:06

rattle and then you had

19:08

these fires and now I

19:10

can't tell you how many

19:13

people I've heard it expedited.

19:15

They're leaving L.A. and coming

19:17

somewhere else. I know there's

19:19

a lot of push to

19:21

move the industry in general

19:23

just out of Los Angeles,

19:26

but again you see with

19:28

AI and Slop and so

19:31

much content and

19:33

it seems It seems

19:35

like all of these

19:37

industries I don't know

19:40

how to conceive of

19:42

what they'll look like

19:44

at all. Because I don't

19:46

I don't know that it will

19:48

look I don't know that people

19:50

will return to legacy

19:52

media Even if they tried I

19:55

don't I saw even today There

19:57

was a whole thing going around

20:00

about something that Trump allegedly said,

20:02

and they're like, they're taking away

20:04

the food stamps. They're taking away

20:06

the food stamps. It's like, they're

20:08

not political already changed

20:10

the article where they said

20:12

that was the case and no

20:15

one learned anything from 2017. So,

20:17

if you keep stepping on

20:19

that rake over and over again,

20:21

even after the lessons of

20:23

2017 and 2020, and now here

20:25

we are in 2025 and

20:27

you're still running with whatever you

20:29

read without actually vetting it

20:31

or reading source material or finding

20:33

out if it's true, you're

20:35

going to end up having people

20:37

who don't want to defend

20:39

Trump, have to defend Trump, and

20:41

you're going to continue to

20:43

erode trust as a journalist or

20:45

like a mainstream legacy media. And

20:47

just today I was like,

20:49

well, maybe they've learned and it's

20:51

like, no, I don't know

20:53

that they have everybody just freaks

20:55

out and reacts. And people people

20:58

really part of

21:00

the reason I think Trump even

21:02

won this election is because

21:04

people had so drastically left it

21:07

meet the legacy media

21:09

behind already. And they went

21:11

on this, you know, independent

21:13

media podcast tour and snatched

21:15

up all these particularly

21:17

male voters. So

21:20

I'm, and I don't know that those

21:22

people are ever coming back, at least I

21:24

think that you'd have to

21:26

cycle out of it

21:28

for generation, like

21:30

decades before maybe there was some kind

21:32

of return to it. That's just my

21:34

feeling. I don't know though. I

21:37

mean, you might be right. I

21:40

just, I just feel like, I

21:42

mean, maybe what we exist in a world where

21:44

there is no news. I mean, I agree

21:46

with you with a outlet like Politico probably doesn't

21:48

have much of a future. Or if

21:50

it does have a future, it's

21:52

small and a niche, right? And

21:54

we just have all these like, niche

21:57

creators, the smaller creators get

21:59

sort of altered out and it's like,

22:01

you know, we're all part of

22:04

an, you know, you're in the

22:06

Joe Rogan ecosystem or the Theovon

22:08

ecosystem or whatever, right? But it

22:10

just, it just seems that like

22:12

something's got to give, like there's

22:15

too much content, there's way too

22:17

much content, and people get,

22:19

you know, exhausted by it, right?

22:22

You're also seeing like... a lot

22:24

of like new networks pop up, like

22:26

everyone's starting a network, everyone's starting a

22:28

bundle, because it's like they know there's

22:30

too many voices. And I don't think

22:32

a lot of them are going to

22:35

survive, because I think they're too,

22:37

I think if you're starting one now,

22:39

you're already too late. I think like you

22:41

really want to get picked up by someone

22:43

who's bigger, and as much as their credibility

22:45

is diminished, like the New York Times and

22:48

Washington Post still have a, you know, they

22:50

still have some pull. right? I think

22:52

if they got their shit together

22:54

this year, they could stand a

22:56

chance of survival and not,

22:59

I don't know, and not end up

23:01

pushed to the to the wayside. Yeah,

23:03

it's interesting because we'd probably

23:05

be the first on the

23:08

chopping block by those standards,

23:10

you know, you and I, maybe not

23:13

you, but probably me, I've been

23:15

told for five years now

23:17

and Constantine Kissin, I think

23:19

maybe two or three years

23:21

ago, maybe two years ago.

23:23

He was here and he said, you

23:25

either need to blow up or you

23:27

need to sell out. And I was like,

23:30

well, sorry I'm not blowing up

23:32

fast enough. Like, as if I'm

23:34

not, as if everyone isn't

23:36

trying to kind of reach

23:38

that escape velocity where they

23:40

don't need to worry about whether

23:43

or not they can continue

23:45

to make content and pay

23:47

the bills. But I also. don't, you

23:49

know, there's been many opportunities

23:51

that I could have probably

23:54

sold out to different organizations

23:56

that I said no to

23:58

because ultimately. I still want

24:00

to be able to say what

24:03

I want to say, how I

24:05

want to say it. And I

24:07

guess maybe I'll never be

24:09

a millionaire and maybe I

24:11

will have to shudder things

24:13

in the next couple of

24:16

years. Perhaps that is

24:18

true, but maybe I'll just

24:20

make enough until I don't

24:22

know. I'm not. I think I'm

24:24

like a case study and what you're

24:26

talking about, you know, do, will I

24:29

need to like go sell my whole

24:31

operation to someone much bigger

24:33

in order to survive because there

24:35

is so much content and people

24:37

are, I think, subscriber, you're,

24:40

you're, you're, you're, how big

24:42

you are though, right? Like, you, you,

24:44

like you retreat me like one time,

24:46

I get a thousand follower, like you,

24:48

you have, you have, you have, you

24:50

know, like, like, you have a presence

24:53

for sure. Yeah, but I'm not,

24:55

I guess I look at it

24:57

solely from can I support my

24:59

one employee that I have and

25:02

can, and we both, I mean,

25:04

this is just like very

25:06

inside baseball, but whatever,

25:08

I'm pretty transparent. We

25:11

both had to take

25:13

pay cuts last year.

25:15

It's coming on the heels

25:17

of a baby and a move,

25:19

so I knew that there would

25:22

be. and a not great economy.

25:24

So I knew there would be,

25:26

you know, those effects are always

25:28

like years delayed. And we last

25:30

year was like a make or break

25:32

year for us and we did make

25:35

it, but it's still, we're not,

25:37

I'm not making anywhere near what

25:39

most of the people around me

25:41

are making. You know, most

25:43

of the people around me did

25:46

get very big and are

25:48

making millions of dollars

25:50

and... We are still,

25:52

I'm still making what

25:54

would be considered a lower

25:56

and middle class, you

25:58

know, living. Which again,

26:01

I'm completely fine with

26:03

that because that's Like

26:05

that's the dream You know

26:08

what I'm doing what I

26:10

love and doing it how I

26:12

want to do it, but Yeah, I

26:14

think I'm a good I'm a good

26:17

example of someone

26:19

that maybe maybe won't

26:21

survive this new I mean

26:23

I if I look realistically

26:25

at these things I I

26:28

I I may not survive this

26:30

new evolution of this

26:32

bifurcated internet where everybody's

26:35

having to kind of, you know,

26:37

bundle. I mean, I don't know

26:39

if this is like appropriate to

26:41

say any, I mean, I think

26:43

someone would scoop you up if

26:45

you put the bat signal

26:47

out. Yeah, like if I

26:49

was like, if we're being real,

26:51

I'm not, I'll end, I'll end,

26:53

I'll end, I'll end to this

26:56

topic after this comment. I mean,

26:58

if we're, if we're being like,

27:00

you know, who's gonna survive, who's

27:02

not gonna survive. And like, I

27:05

have like various like side

27:07

hustles and what have you, like,

27:09

but I don't think you

27:11

have to worry, I mean. I'm

27:13

in no I'm at no risk of someone

27:16

buying me out but I think if you

27:18

really wanted that and you felt like that's

27:20

what you needed if you put you know

27:22

if you put the I'm looking for work

27:24

sign up like on LinkedIn you know they

27:27

people would want you because you're you're

27:29

valuable you know but I feel that

27:31

that way about you but that's still

27:34

not but the original point is

27:36

we are both independent It's

27:38

like is there is there room

27:40

in the same way that like

27:42

with the music industry everything went

27:44

to all these giant labels

27:46

and you had all these

27:48

independent labels and the internet

27:50

came along and those independent

27:52

labels they were the first

27:54

ones to go like we're

27:56

independent labels and in pretty corporate

27:58

you know everyone. I know who

28:00

also has blown up aside from

28:02

like some comedians who are very

28:05

independent, but in terms of like

28:07

the media outlets that we're talking

28:09

about, they have investor money. You

28:11

know, they're, they're not, it's not

28:13

like they're just like bootstrapping it

28:15

with subs. Like they've got, they

28:17

have big dollars coming in to

28:19

help, you know, these people with

28:21

money saw that they needed to

28:23

create alternatives to this mainstream in

28:26

order. and give these people support

28:28

in order for them to even

28:30

survive. And now they're more or

28:32

less corporate in some respects. So

28:34

I think that's really the question.

28:36

The question is there enough, are

28:38

there enough resources out there with

28:40

individuals to keep independent creators afloat?

28:42

I don't know. A lot of

28:45

it depends on how the economy

28:47

goes too. I mean people had

28:49

a lot of disposable income during

28:51

COVID. It was almost like a

28:53

fake sense. Yeah, for a while.

28:55

And it was like when everybody

28:57

converted their tapes to CDs. It

28:59

was like a fake sense of

29:01

what the market actually is because

29:03

you're like, look at all this,

29:06

there's, this is completely sustainable. But

29:08

then you're like, well, no, people

29:10

aren't going to concerts, they're not

29:12

going to football games, they're not

29:14

going to Disneyland, they're not going

29:16

like, these very expensive in real

29:18

life places. I think that's such

29:20

a good analogy. And people don't

29:22

think about that a lot, that

29:25

like CDs were actually a transition.

29:27

What did someone call it on?

29:29

I read some list of predictions

29:31

and someone called like these false

29:33

starts a dead cat bounce and

29:35

CDs were dead cat bounce for

29:37

the music industry. Yeah, I mean

29:39

it gave them a a false

29:41

sense of what CD sales would

29:44

look like. And I think the

29:46

pandemic did that for independent creators.

29:48

At the same time, it was

29:50

creating more and more independent creators

29:52

because everybody was just locked up.

29:54

So I've created this huge, huge

29:56

amount of content and people and

29:58

people blew up and then things

30:00

normalized and now that it's completely

30:02

saturated and not everyone's going to

30:05

make it. And it is interesting,

30:07

like I wonder how the like

30:09

indie brands will, but I'm determined

30:11

I'm going down with the shit.

30:13

Well, you know, I was going

30:15

to say, like, some people will

30:17

just quit because it's hard, right?

30:19

It's like, and it's tough. You

30:21

know, you look at something like

30:24

only fans, which, you know, like

30:26

moral hesitations about that aside, right?

30:28

Part of the reason a lot

30:30

of people fail at only fans

30:32

is, well, you know, it's oversaturated,

30:34

right? They don't have what it

30:36

takes, you know, talent-wise, let's say.

30:38

But also, like, it's a craft.

30:40

I'm not saying it's one that's

30:43

like deserving of the most respect

30:45

in the world or whatever, but

30:47

it's a crafting. There's certain rules

30:49

you need to follow to succeed.

30:51

Same with content creation. So it's

30:53

like when they say like, you

30:55

know, X, like, impossibly small percent

30:57

of only fans creator earned over

30:59

like $600 a month, right? Like

31:01

a big piece of that puzzle

31:04

is like, well, how many of

31:06

those are updating regularly, updating in

31:08

the right way, or offering the

31:10

services that... you know, generate cash

31:12

and it's the same, it's the

31:14

same with people who are creating

31:16

content. So that's like one level

31:18

of it. So like obviously you're

31:20

like way past, you don't have

31:23

to worry about that, you know,

31:25

you got the formula down, right?

31:27

And then like, we're always iterating,

31:29

I mean, ish, we just changed

31:31

our format for dumpster fire, we

31:33

just moved walk-ins welcome off our

31:35

main YouTube channel, had to start

31:37

another YouTube channel, we took it

31:39

back from our, just... We had,

31:41

you know, like a network that

31:44

we were on and we took

31:46

it back and now we're selling

31:48

all of our ads, ourselves, which

31:50

is a whole other job in

31:52

and of itself. And, like, we're

31:54

truly an indie record label right

31:56

now. I was trying to explain

31:58

this to my cousin, who's like,

32:00

we are working so hard. It

32:03

is insane. And I was like,

32:05

we're in our indie record label

32:07

years. You do in-person events? You

32:09

know what I found is, like,

32:11

really successful. I want to. You

32:13

should. This is just like content

32:15

craft hour now. Hey, there's a

32:17

lot of people who like love

32:19

these conversations because you and I

32:22

talk a lot about the kind

32:24

of inside mechanisms of this and

32:26

as we talked about on our

32:28

last podcast, people keep this like

32:30

weirdly a secret like they have

32:32

to act like, oh, this is

32:34

all just happening and you're like,

32:36

it's a lot of fucking work.

32:38

And I might have said this

32:40

on the last time we talked

32:43

about this, I hate when we

32:45

were like, well, you know, I

32:47

just sort of accidentally fell into

32:49

this and I didn't really want

32:51

to. It's like, bitch, you worked

32:53

your ass off. You such so

32:55

many dicks to get here. Like,

32:57

who are you fooling? Metaphorically. They

32:59

didn't, like, you know, the person

33:02

I'm obviously referencing in my mind.

33:04

It worked. They published, right? No

33:06

one falls in it. No one

33:08

keeps up a content creator career

33:10

because, well, it was just an

33:12

accident. I never expected it. You

33:14

know, I'm so humble about it.

33:16

I don't know, you're, just be

33:18

real. You wanted it, you love

33:20

it, and you worked for it.

33:23

Yeah. And it's not like anyone

33:25

who does content creation knows what

33:27

bullshit that is. Like so annoying.

33:29

I have people who don't have

33:31

to do it because they're always

33:33

like get a real job. I'm

33:35

like, you know how many times

33:37

I've joked to my husband that

33:39

I was going to go back

33:42

to waiting tables because it's easier

33:44

than like this is amazing and

33:46

it's creative. But and we were

33:48

talking about this on ironically a

33:50

recent dumpster fire that like did

33:52

the most poorly of one in

33:54

a while where we were talking

33:56

about how we all sound like.

33:58

talking about feeding the algorithm, I'm

34:01

like, we sound like primitive people

34:03

talking about the gods. You know,

34:05

like the way we talk about

34:07

the algorithm is like, oh, if

34:09

we don't feed it for three

34:11

days, it will get angry. It

34:13

will turn on us. We cannot

34:15

anger the algorithm. We just keep

34:17

bringing it offerings for it to

34:19

keep paying attention to us or

34:22

it will rain hellfire upon it.

34:24

It's just like. No one really

34:26

fucking knows. And now with AI,

34:28

this invisible God that is driving

34:30

it all, we all, we sound

34:32

like crazy people, but it is

34:34

so much of what you're constantly

34:36

trying to manage, because all of

34:38

these platforms are also constantly changing

34:41

their algorithms with changing preferences and

34:43

politics and ownership or whatever, and

34:45

censorship rules or not censoring. bananas

34:47

and anyone who acts like it's

34:49

easy is a liar and I

34:51

know all these dudes who are

34:53

psychotic about this stuff and they

34:55

pay people to analyze every card

34:57

that they use on YouTube I

34:59

mean they're like autistic about YouTube

35:02

and trying to have the algorithm

35:04

trying to figure out what the

35:06

new algorithm is there are teams

35:08

of kids in India who are

35:10

doing this for every platform looking

35:12

at what works when what it's

35:14

like no one People are full

35:16

of shit if they act like

35:18

this just happened. It's yeah, I

35:21

mean, like, even to the, there

35:23

are some creators that I could

35:25

think of, right, who, where they

35:27

clearly did just get lucky, and

35:29

they're not doing it on any

35:31

kind of schedule, but then it's

35:33

even like, for them to have

35:35

gotten, like, getting lucky means the

35:37

right person noticed you. Even then,

35:40

it's like, you have to network,

35:42

you have to say the right

35:44

things. There's no version of this.

35:46

There's no version of version of

35:48

this. and you're suddenly you're suddenly

35:50

famous like you have to you

35:52

know drum up the right controversies

35:54

don't but don't piss off the

35:56

wrong person because it'll unless you're

35:58

like hot goa Oh

36:01

my god. What happened?

36:03

How did that even, she

36:05

was like smart for

36:07

a minute? And then

36:09

stupid. Or something? Or

36:11

she's sitting on a beach

36:14

earning 20%? I mean, maybe.

36:16

Or she's sending a sending

36:19

lawsuit. I mean, look, if,

36:21

yeah, or that, or both. I

36:23

mean, if I were her,

36:25

I would just leave the

36:27

country and go live in

36:29

Sri Lanka. She may have been

36:31

smart enough to see that

36:33

like that 15 minutes when

36:35

you blow up overnight like

36:37

that. It's not as easy

36:39

to create content as you

36:41

think and to maintain relevance

36:43

you have to that level

36:45

of relevance you have to

36:47

live up to that and

36:49

you might just want to

36:51

do a pump and dump

36:53

and grab like 50 million

36:56

or whatever and and get out.

36:58

I'll call it a day. Yeah, I

37:00

mean, maybe. That would be the

37:02

smart thing, truly, for her. Yeah, yeah,

37:05

because it's like, how much does

37:07

she have to say? You know? Feeling

37:09

she's doing any kind of

37:11

project. Yeah, just, you know, take

37:13

the, get your bag and walk

37:16

away. Yeah, when you're at your

37:18

peak. Yeah. I mean, I don't think

37:20

you've forgotten. No, I

37:22

was looking at, it was a moment.

37:24

I was looking at her even

37:27

podcast numbers, and you can see.

37:29

like just on YouTube like they

37:32

just start slowly declining because you

37:34

were a cultural moment and a

37:36

flash point but are people going

37:39

to tune in to you every

37:41

week? I maybe but it seemed

37:43

like you know I probably would

37:46

have just grabbed the bag on

37:48

as soon as I noticed that

37:50

star was following I'd be like

37:53

get me out but maybe she's

37:55

just pending lawsuit and she's not

37:57

allowed to talk anymore. It could

38:00

maybe both. Maybe it's both.

38:02

But this is that kind of

38:04

viral fame. Like I've never chased

38:06

it. I've never wanted it. It

38:08

seems like it comes with so

38:11

many more problems than opportunities in

38:13

the long run. And it's, I

38:15

kind of prefer the slow and

38:18

steady just like plot on the

38:20

internet. And it's, it's weird like.

38:22

I don't know if you've had

38:25

this experience at all with having

38:27

a kid. I don't want to

38:29

be disconnected from this world, the

38:31

online world, because I know she'll

38:34

probably be there, more than likely,

38:36

as most children are, but I

38:38

don't want it. She makes me

38:41

want to be even more in

38:43

real life and even this thing

38:45

like around reading books where. I

38:47

would love for her to grow

38:50

up and be like, my mom

38:52

and dad were reading all the

38:54

time. And I was saying to

38:57

someone, even reading a Kindle, you're

38:59

looking at a screen. So I

39:01

try, I just like physical books

39:04

anyway. But if you're trying to

39:06

like teach your kid to be

39:08

a book reader, you can't do

39:10

it by reading a Kindle. They're

39:13

still going to be like, oh,

39:15

you're looking to a screen. I

39:17

mean, my son already sees it.

39:20

I see him like, like, picking

39:22

up, like, you know, rectangular objects

39:24

and pretending he's on the phone.

39:27

He grabs my phone to call

39:29

my mom. And I'm like, you're

39:31

nine months old. Yep. Yep. Yep.

39:33

Yeah. If I leave my phone

39:36

unattended, he just starts, like, you

39:38

know, moving around like this. Yep.

39:40

Crazy. They see us. Yeah. What's

39:43

that that expression someone said to

39:45

me, you're more is caught than

39:47

taught. That really stuck with me.

39:49

Like the kids are going to

39:52

catch more just by our behavior

39:54

than us being like, you know.

39:56

you need to get off the

39:59

screens and you need to read

40:01

books or whatever. It's like, if

40:03

you're not, they see that. I

40:06

see it reflected in her. And

40:08

then it is hard because she

40:10

has relationships with her grandparents who

40:12

live all over the country, something

40:15

that was not possible in a

40:17

way that is now where they

40:19

can face time and so she

40:22

gets to see them, but it

40:24

means more time on the screen.

40:26

When she sees them, they have

40:29

this pre-existing relationship from their screen

40:31

time, but she also knows how

40:33

to swipe a notification away. You

40:35

know, at like 13 months she

40:38

knew how to do that. Yeah,

40:40

no, I mean, sometimes I'm like,

40:42

I let my son face time,

40:45

my parents too much, but also

40:47

it's like, now he knows, he

40:49

has such a good relationship. Yeah.

40:52

Yeah, I don't know. It's tough.

40:54

I don't know how I feel

40:56

about it. I definitely don't want

40:58

him online online. ever. It's so,

41:01

I mean, if I were you,

41:03

I went in and you're in

41:05

way deep, way deeper than in

41:08

the like dredges of the internet

41:10

than I am. Yeah, I mean,

41:12

you know, I don't think the

41:14

internet's inherently bad, but it's just

41:17

the wild, it's a wild west,

41:19

like my problem isn't mediated relationships.

41:21

It's just like, it's like I

41:24

don't want to wandering around downtown

41:26

Chicago, you know, like two years

41:28

old all by himself, right, or

41:31

five or seven or seven. 15,

41:33

you know? It's a... It reminds

41:35

me that Chappelle shows sketch where

41:37

he's like if the internet was

41:40

real life and he's just like

41:42

walking through like basically like a

41:44

red like district is just like

41:47

badness everywhere. Yeah, it's it's it's

41:49

such a weird, it's such a

41:51

weird time. It really is like

41:54

how you open this thing, things

41:56

are going to get weirder. And

41:58

even culturally, the like vibe shift

42:00

or realignment or whatever you want

42:03

to call it, you already see.

42:05

the right wing behaving in the

42:07

same way the left wing did

42:10

and that kind of in some

42:12

respects you see I see glimmers

42:14

of this I know a lot

42:16

of it is just the victory

42:19

lap but some of it is

42:21

also I think there's a viral

42:23

tweet I saw yesterday going around

42:26

that was like make it normal

42:28

to shame someone for Kamala voting

42:30

for Kamala. Are we going to

42:33

do this again? Like that's not

42:35

how you want the independence? So

42:37

much of this stuff is like

42:39

politics agnostic, it's like a group

42:42

dynamic thing, right? And I've always

42:44

believed that. I mean, the left

42:46

certainly has its own toxicity and

42:49

I'm not denying that. But I

42:51

think a lot of problems are

42:53

because of, you know, power concentration,

42:56

resource scarcity. you know, like too

42:58

many people wanting the same thing,

43:00

and the same types of dynamics

43:02

emerge, the internet amplifies this, but

43:05

obviously they exist just as much

43:07

in the physical world. And so

43:09

of course we'll see cancellation mobs

43:12

from the right, because it was

43:14

never, you know, it was never

43:16

a principal thing. It was like,

43:18

you know, is it such a

43:21

coincidence that the left went into

43:23

turbo drive, they already owned all

43:25

these institutions, and then these institutions

43:28

start shrinking because of the internet

43:30

because of the internet. Right. So

43:32

it's like, so some of it

43:35

is political, sure, but a lot

43:37

of it is not political and

43:39

it's driven by these structural problems.

43:41

Right. It's, do you think that,

43:44

do you, what do you think

43:46

about the Tiktak stuff as someone

43:48

who loves Tiktak? I don't, I

43:51

don't know. I've become over time

43:53

more sympathetic to banning it. I'll

43:55

say that. And I think a

43:58

lot of the security concerns. have

44:00

become more legitimate to me. And

44:02

I think people are like, well,

44:04

what about, you know, like meta,

44:07

you know, what about every other

44:09

single, you know, company out there,

44:11

right? They have a point, but I

44:13

agree, there's like a, as gross as

44:15

this is going to sound to

44:17

say, there's like a qualitative difference

44:20

between like alphabet

44:22

or meta exchanging my

44:24

data with, you know, other corporations.

44:26

right, and selling me down the

44:29

river with their, you know, algorithmic

44:31

boudou and China doing it. I

44:33

know. And I, there is a difference, right?

44:35

And it's, I don't like to say it,

44:37

but I mean, it's just how

44:40

I, how I feel. But here's

44:42

what I don't think is real,

44:44

and what I thought was absolutely

44:47

like cringe-inducing, is the idea that

44:49

like, like, Tik talk is like

44:52

digital fentanyl, and that like,

44:54

it was brainwashing people, that people

44:56

pointed people pointed to in motion,

44:58

right? You know, like, people thought

45:01

that young, you know, young people

45:03

were more anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian because

45:06

they got brainwashed on TikTok. That's

45:08

just not true. They, that Gen

45:10

D has been moving in that

45:12

direction for years. If you look

45:15

at the polling data, you see

45:17

that and maybe these surveys aren't

45:19

right, but, you know, a lot of

45:22

those Harvard Harris surveys that people

45:24

were, were using in the early

45:26

days to show how, like, deranged,

45:28

gen-sy political positions had

45:31

become, and then, like,

45:33

tying in TikTok as

45:35

having Kawsat, they were, really

45:38

flawed. The questions were weird.

45:40

The sample sizes were all

45:42

over the place. They were,

45:45

like, changing week to week.

45:47

And people were really cherry-picking

45:49

those surveys. Right? So

45:52

it's complicated. Like yeah,

45:54

there's national security concerns. I

45:56

buy it. You know, I get it. I

45:58

think it's probably... a very complicated

46:01

conversation if we want to

46:03

like start drilling down how

46:05

these other tech companies are

46:07

treating our data. I certainly think

46:09

that we're not the best at privacy

46:12

in this country. But then like

46:14

the brainwashing thing, it's not, it's,

46:16

you know, it's not the fault

46:18

of TikTok. I will accept and,

46:20

you know, even promote a more

46:23

general argument that people are in

46:25

front of screens too much

46:27

and like losing touch. with

46:29

their own humanity, and that

46:31

causes problems, as we've seen

46:33

with the, you know, myriad school

46:36

shootings, getting recently stranger, each

46:38

one, you know, and just

46:40

other acts of just like

46:43

completely anti-social behavior, but that's

46:45

not, it's not TikTok, you

46:47

know, making 14-year-old sympathize

46:49

with Palestinians. I

46:51

mean, anecdotally, I have seen

46:54

that to be the case,

46:56

but that's just anecdotally. I

46:58

do know people in my

47:01

life where that is the

47:03

only place that that information

47:05

would have come into their

47:08

brain with very little

47:10

pushback. So spreading,

47:12

talking, having conversations

47:14

with younger people

47:17

around that age who live in...

47:19

die on TikTok and there

47:21

is not much, where some of

47:23

it is just, you know,

47:26

clearly pro-Palestinian and

47:28

empathy for the

47:30

Palestinian, some

47:32

of it is anti-Semitism

47:34

kind of repack, but

47:36

they don't even realize

47:39

that it's anti-Semitic. You

47:41

know, so there is,

47:43

there's, and this hasn't

47:45

just happened to... People

47:48

on TikTok. I've also seen

47:50

this with like grown adults

47:52

on Instagram. So I I'm

47:54

not sure that My particular

47:56

experience with younger people

47:58

in in this topic

48:00

completely is that I don't

48:02

know where else a 14 or 15 year

48:05

old would get that perspective or

48:07

that one sided perspective. It doesn't

48:09

seem like it's like balanced with

48:12

anything so I'm not sure where

48:14

where that comes from is it

48:16

just like their school? I mean

48:19

I think it's just it's in

48:21

the water it's like it's in the

48:23

zyke rule. It's in the zyke. It's

48:25

in the zyke. It's in the zyke.

48:28

It's in the zyke. caused it, right?

48:30

But I think it's like this

48:32

complicated thing where it

48:34

reinforced it because people

48:36

already think this way. You know

48:39

what I mean? You know, like any, like

48:41

any media created by young

48:43

people does have this sort

48:46

of flavor that you're describing

48:48

to it. And that predates TikTok.

48:50

I don't think like TikTok entered

48:53

the picture and suddenly everyone is

48:55

a leftist. I think young people

48:57

have been leftists for a long

49:00

time for decades. Yeah. And this,

49:02

you know, this style of leftism

49:05

is, I mean, it's been growing

49:07

year year over year and there's

49:09

certain parts of the internet

49:11

that amplifies it, but I don't

49:14

think it's like the fault of

49:16

one popular per se. Yeah, that

49:18

makes sense. I was interested in,

49:20

oh, what were you going to say about

49:23

the live events? Oh, I was going

49:25

to say, I think that's a big

49:27

differentiator, and people

49:29

are thirsty for them, and they're

49:31

like a pain in the ass to

49:34

put together, so no one does

49:36

it, really. Like, I've had a

49:38

couple of in-person events here in

49:40

Chicago. I haven't been great about

49:42

organizing them consistently, because I, you

49:44

know, the baby, like, I did

49:46

like, you know, two girls I

49:48

liked and then like some guy.

49:50

You know, just like some guy

49:52

I'm like, you're cool, why do

49:54

you join my event? But people

49:56

just want this in person. They

49:58

want in person. and stuff, and

50:00

they want like classes, like any time

50:03

I do like a Zoom book club

50:05

or something, people are like so stoked

50:07

for it. Like to the extent where

50:09

I'm like, why am I not just like

50:11

running a local book club? You know,

50:13

it's like I had numerous situations

50:16

where it's like, you know, I'll

50:18

pick some book book, I'll do

50:20

my due diligence with advertising it, and

50:22

then I pick a cafe, assuming three

50:24

people show up, and then it's like, like,

50:26

a bunch of people, and it's like,

50:29

Yeah. That's like the 90s girl

50:31

in me that misses hanging

50:33

out. I was thinking about

50:36

this. I've been thinking a

50:38

lot about just my upbringing

50:41

and the living through, I

50:43

don't know, it was just so

50:45

cool. I went to so

50:47

many cool things. I'm like,

50:49

is that, does this exist

50:51

still? I want to, does it,

50:53

like, where is it? You know,

50:55

I want to, I need to

50:57

find out where. I remember the

50:59

first time, I used to

51:02

go to Bonavite and St.

51:04

Paul and Rhymesayers was just

51:06

getting started for people who

51:08

don't know, it's like a

51:10

hip-hop label, indie label, but

51:12

it wrapped all kinds of

51:14

amazing hip-hop artists from that

51:16

time and slug from atmosphere.

51:18

was not known or famous

51:20

at all yet and he

51:22

would go and just freestyle

51:25

and there was breakdancing and

51:27

people were still spinning actual

51:29

records at that time and it

51:31

was so much fun it was

51:33

like the I think I was

51:35

probably 17 it was the coolest

51:37

our 17 year olds going to

51:39

places like this I want to

51:41

know what what they're doing I

51:43

want to know like these Where

51:45

are the cool in real life

51:47

kind of indie things that kids

51:49

are doing? And like where are

51:52

they gathering? I'm sure there's a

51:54

scene in Chicago. It might

51:56

be. I'm not, I mean, I don't

51:58

know what teenagers... in Chicago are

52:01

doing. But- Shooting each other? No,

52:03

I'm just kidding. Maybe. I think

52:05

there are seeing certain places in

52:07

the country. I think more people

52:09

are trying to create scenes too.

52:11

But again, I think it's like

52:14

there's this like inequality. Like some

52:16

people are kind of stuck online.

52:18

And they really resent the it's

52:20

the phones get off the phone discourse

52:23

because they're like, well, you

52:25

know, even if you're like 60 miles

52:27

away from my, you know. or if you're

52:29

in parts of Minnesota, right? It's

52:31

like, well, where are you going

52:33

to go? I hear people complain

52:35

about Austin, right? That there's not

52:38

enough going on in Austin. So it's

52:40

like, what do they expect kids to do

52:42

in the middle of nowhere, right?

52:44

But also, we had, the parenting

52:46

is a little more strict now,

52:48

too, I think. So this is

52:50

like another extension of a conversation

52:53

that I've been having on this

52:55

podcast for years where. They couldn't

52:57

find us. They couldn't track us. They

52:59

couldn't find us. We would just, I

53:01

think I had a pager at one

53:04

point and I would have to like

53:06

go find, find a pay phone to

53:08

call my family back if they needed

53:10

me. But I would go out and

53:12

just be gone and that was kind

53:15

of it. My parents had to just

53:17

trust that I was where I said

53:19

I was. Usually we weren't. Usually

53:21

we were at some party in the

53:23

woods or, you know, it was. I

53:26

don't, it's just like a completely

53:28

different time with the level

53:30

of surveillance that you can

53:32

have on your child now. And like

53:34

Dana Lash and I were talking about,

53:36

would you, as a parent, I'm like,

53:39

I don't know that I'd want to

53:41

let that go. Yeah, well, exactly,

53:43

like, because on the one hand,

53:45

you hear all these horror stories.

53:47

Right? And some of them seem

53:49

pretty legitimate. Like here's something like

53:51

I would never give my son

53:54

unrestricted internet access, even remembering things

53:56

I got up to, right? Like

53:58

absolutely not. And then today. world

54:00

it's like well just letting him you

54:02

know letting him loose in the

54:04

physical world like how do I balance

54:06

that with not letting him loose in

54:08

the digital world because they're so

54:11

intertwined they definitely are that's

54:13

a big part of it and then of

54:15

course there's the reverse situation which I

54:17

hear about a lot where people have

54:20

no freedom in the physical world

54:22

but they have all the freedom and

54:24

you know on on their smartphones

54:26

that causes problems But it

54:28

is true, even if you restrict

54:30

your kids online at home, my

54:32

best friend has kids who are

54:34

tweens and she was telling me

54:37

about the stuff that they're

54:39

exposed to from other kids

54:41

who are older showing them

54:43

these horrific tick-tock video, it's

54:45

like you can't guard them from

54:47

it from the online even offline.

54:50

And it's, you also don't want

54:52

your kid to be like a

54:54

homeschooled kid that goes to a

54:56

state. college and loses their mind.

54:58

You know, you want them to have

55:00

some, this is another thing. Some of

55:03

my family members have teens

55:05

and older kids who have lived

55:07

through all this and the kind

55:09

of like getting in trouble online

55:11

and with friends and drama and

55:13

all the stuff you go through

55:15

with the kids now online with

55:18

their friends and the, one of

55:20

them was saying that. He's seeing

55:22

his, he was allowed probably too young

55:24

to be online, although he went through

55:26

all this stuff much younger and then

55:29

he's seeing his friends going through these

55:31

things like as freshmen and he's like,

55:33

I already went through the, you know,

55:35

I went through this, but I was

55:38

like 12, these kids, because they were

55:40

restricted and they didn't have the

55:42

online social skills that are required

55:44

or social, or the online kind

55:46

of, I mean, for lack of a

55:48

better word street smarts. There is like

55:50

an online, it's funny to hear you

55:52

talk because you came up on the

55:55

internet and I had real life street

55:57

smarts because I was like out at

55:59

17. 18 doing things I probably

56:01

shouldn't have been doing and

56:04

in positions I shouldn't have

56:06

been in and were dangerous

56:08

and you have online street

56:10

smarts for a similar reason. I don't

56:12

know if I have online straight

56:15

I'm pretty I'm I often say

56:17

I have like digital autism like

56:19

I it's like social netitude translates

56:22

to the digital world somehow I

56:24

wish I was savvy I don't

56:26

think I'm savvy physically or you

56:28

know in cyber space. Yeah, but you

56:30

seem to, you probably have

56:32

a certain set of social

56:34

skills and knowledge and knowledge

56:37

about these countercultures and these

56:39

small niche, you know, like

56:41

fandoms that you kind of

56:43

enter into that I would

56:46

have, you know how to speak

56:48

their language and you know how

56:50

to navigate it, I would have

56:52

no clue. I'd be like, hello

56:55

children, you know, the meme.

56:57

And then a lot of

56:59

young people are kind of, especially

57:01

online, are kind of scary. Let

57:03

me older I get, the kind

57:06

of like scarier they get. Why

57:08

is that? Are they just losing

57:10

it online? So I wrote

57:12

this very long article about

57:14

people who, it's the true crime

57:17

community. So they're mostly. people

57:19

under 20, sometimes in their

57:21

early 20s, who are in

57:23

like a school shooter fandom.

57:25

They're like Columbiners. And I'm just

57:27

like looking at these like discord

57:30

servers that they're in and

57:32

they're just like like lifely

57:34

sending the most horrific gore

57:36

I've ever seen. And it's just

57:38

it's like doesn't, I don't think

57:40

the gravity of what it is

57:42

like registers to them, right? It's like

57:44

they really are numb to it. And not

57:46

in the way like you or I might

57:48

be numb to like war footage or something

57:51

because we saw it on the news so

57:53

much or like natural disasters. You know, it's

57:55

not like the 24 hour news numbness. It's

57:57

like another level of it. I'm like, that's

57:59

really. That's strange. Like I really

58:01

think it's not that they know what

58:03

it is and don't care. It's that

58:06

like they've seen it so much. It

58:08

ceases to register. Like it is just

58:10

an image to them. And that is

58:12

like, that is scary to me. And

58:14

they're just so out of step

58:16

with their own bodies, with the world,

58:18

with what anything, or the meaning

58:21

of anything. It's like, really the

58:23

sort of like postmodern nightmare. Yeah,

58:25

this is a lot of

58:27

like what Mary Harrington talks

58:30

about our mutual, just being

58:32

disembodied, you know, just the,

58:34

but this is just an

58:36

extension of mediation, this process

58:38

too, because even in the

58:40

book that Thomas DeZengotita wrote

58:43

mediated about like how numb

58:45

our, my generation in particular

58:48

was to like the starving

58:50

kids in Africa. because

58:52

we're bombarded with those images of

58:54

the kids and the flies and

58:57

like you just get numb to

58:59

it because and this is his

59:01

whole kind of theory about the

59:04

blob is that it doesn't actually

59:06

seek a reaction from you what

59:08

it seeks is apathy because of

59:11

the minute that you can allow it

59:13

not to affect you one way or

59:15

another it's been fully like, it's

59:17

like, osmosis, it's just been fully

59:20

integrated and you no longer, the

59:22

blob can, like, move on to the

59:24

next thing, where it, like,

59:26

seeks to erase wherever there's

59:28

something that makes you feel and

59:31

can penetrate it. And you have

59:33

these moments that penetrate the

59:35

blob, but then there, like, memes

59:38

are the digestive enzyme of the

59:40

blob. It is, like, incredible how

59:42

quickly. people are meaming

59:44

something even if it's

59:46

horrific. It's almost instantaneous.

59:48

You know, there is

59:50

no such thing as too

59:53

soon anymore. Maybe there never

59:55

was, but that distance

59:57

is gone. Yeah, I totally.

59:59

with you. It's just so, because

1:00:02

it doesn't, there's no, you

1:00:04

don't feel it, right? It has

1:00:06

no, it has no context,

1:00:08

there's no significance. It just,

1:00:10

I mean, it's just an image.

1:00:12

Or it's, you know, it's, it's,

1:00:15

it's, it's communicating something other than

1:00:17

you would, you know, what you

1:00:19

would assume it communicates, it's like,

1:00:22

you know, you're in a subculture

1:00:24

or that, you're exclusive

1:00:26

or something, can

1:00:28

you communicate, it

1:00:31

communicates anything but what

1:00:33

the image literally is.

1:00:35

Yeah. What are your predictions

1:00:38

for like this year moving

1:00:40

forward where you see

1:00:42

the trends going in

1:00:44

terms of, so you

1:00:46

kind of think more

1:00:48

consolidation, we'll see more

1:00:50

consolidation, people rebundling?

1:00:52

Yeah, absolutely. bundling

1:00:55

or re- yeah. I think like this

1:00:57

year is going to be like,

1:00:59

you know how like at some

1:01:01

point with cable, it was

1:01:04

just getting like there's so

1:01:06

many channels, right? Yeah.

1:01:08

It's like we're kind of in

1:01:10

that phase, right, where it's like

1:01:13

not everyone, like there's

1:01:15

some barrier to entry, but

1:01:17

there's still like a lot

1:01:19

of choice. Yeah. Where it's like

1:01:22

so glad we cut the cord

1:01:24

so I could be subscribing to

1:01:26

60 different, you know apps and

1:01:28

like HBO Max and Netflix and

1:01:31

at 60 different networks and and

1:01:33

sub stacks So I think people

1:01:35

are and I get this question

1:01:38

a lot on sub stack people

1:01:40

are like how do I subscribe

1:01:42

to like more than one creator?

1:01:45

Like That's a subject problem

1:01:47

Right? Like they want to, they

1:01:49

want like clusters, right? Right. You

1:01:52

know, they want like a cable

1:01:54

package. Right, right. And I think

1:01:56

like that's going to be the

1:01:58

year that, or this. is going to

1:02:00

be the year where maybe there's something

1:02:03

like this happens. And I think

1:02:05

like everyone forming these networks and

1:02:07

these groups are like, you know,

1:02:09

sub stacks, like acquiring smaller sub

1:02:11

stacks. I think all of that is

1:02:14

a positive signal for that. So that's

1:02:16

one thing. I think there are too

1:02:18

many print magazines. Like we don't need

1:02:20

another one, but we're going to people

1:02:23

are going to keep starting more, right?

1:02:25

Why are they starting them? What's your

1:02:27

feeling about that? It's sort of

1:02:30

a rebellion against the digital,

1:02:32

something nice about it, it's

1:02:34

less ephemeral. And I think also

1:02:37

it's like a labor thing, like

1:02:39

it feels good to contribute to

1:02:41

a magazine. Yeah, I mean, I

1:02:43

have often threatened to quit my

1:02:45

spectator column for like years.

1:02:48

I've been there five years I

1:02:50

think now. And now I'm really glad.

1:02:52

Whenever I have something that I

1:02:54

want, my daughter to maybe be

1:02:56

able to be able to read.

1:02:58

I will write it for the

1:03:00

magazine column because

1:03:02

I know I've been I've had

1:03:04

all my my my work purged

1:03:07

like writing online I've

1:03:09

seen entire bodies of

1:03:11

work just disappeared overnight

1:03:13

and I know that

1:03:15

that can be true

1:03:17

with pretty much anything

1:03:19

that I do online so

1:03:22

there is something There's

1:03:24

a, I think she stands a better

1:03:26

chance of reading it if it's in

1:03:28

print than if it's online. I think

1:03:31

that's true. Yeah, I mean, there's

1:03:33

so many things disappear. Mm-hmm.

1:03:35

My entire Playboy body of work

1:03:37

is gone. And it was, I mean, I

1:03:39

have it because I had a feeling that

1:03:42

it was going to get 86.

1:03:44

And so we took screenshots and have

1:03:46

the PDFs of all of it. Thank

1:03:48

goodness or I would have none of

1:03:51

it, but it was overnight gone. And

1:03:53

it was 100, I mean, just like a

1:03:55

body of work I was so proud

1:03:57

of, it's such a weird time in

1:03:59

our culture. and it's just gone.

1:04:01

And it was so much work,

1:04:03

like I was doing to call them

1:04:06

a week for years. So it

1:04:08

was a lot of, a lot of

1:04:10

work and effort and it's, it

1:04:12

just gets washed away by

1:04:14

the digital tide. You can, you

1:04:16

can go find it in the

1:04:18

way back machine probably, but

1:04:20

I don't even know if

1:04:23

you can because Playboy's paywalled

1:04:25

now, so I'm, I'm sure

1:04:28

you maybe can actually. But

1:04:30

it's still, like, who wants to

1:04:32

freaking do that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:04:34

Yeah. It's, it's wild. And that

1:04:36

happened with my first website,

1:04:38

my first iteration of

1:04:40

Fedice.com, like the server, my

1:04:43

web designer moved to Puerto

1:04:45

Rico, the server disbanded and moved

1:04:47

to France or something, and I

1:04:50

woke up and my entire blog

1:04:52

that I'd been working on for

1:04:54

years, was just gone. Oh, I

1:04:57

still I still remember

1:04:59

the like absolute. It's

1:05:01

like I viscerally

1:05:03

remember that feeling so

1:05:05

well, even in this moment.

1:05:08

I never even talk about

1:05:10

it because it was so

1:05:12

dramatic. It was like everything

1:05:14

that I had, I went

1:05:16

bankrupt building this website and

1:05:18

it was, it was all

1:05:20

gone overnight. And that was

1:05:22

my first real lesson in

1:05:24

the, in the like, not,

1:05:26

you know, it's, because as

1:05:28

an internet historian, it's a

1:05:30

very weird thing where the

1:05:33

internet never forgets, but it

1:05:35

also doesn't last. Yeah, it's like,

1:05:37

it's like an oral culture. Hmm.

1:05:39

Right. So it's a lot of this

1:05:41

stuff. A lot of what it's not

1:05:43

forgetting is like stuck in people's memories,

1:05:45

which is why it morphs. Right. God, that's

1:05:48

so brilliant. You have to just accept

1:05:50

it in the moment in a way. And a

1:05:52

lot of the work I do is like, I'm

1:05:54

not often in like, I mean,

1:05:56

it's impossible to go into like

1:05:58

archives because there's this context, right? And

1:06:01

like the things that people say, right?

1:06:03

So things that people post, if you

1:06:05

don't know the mood and what's going

1:06:07

on in group chats and, you know,

1:06:10

what these things represent, it's useless. Reading

1:06:12

forums and stuff doesn't make any sense

1:06:14

because there's all these other components that

1:06:17

you can't, that like really aren't that

1:06:19

helpful. It can be a little bit

1:06:21

helpful, right? But it's not just the

1:06:23

work of finding broken links. You have

1:06:25

to talk to talk to people who

1:06:28

are there, they're oral histories. Right, they're

1:06:30

not, it's not, it's not

1:06:32

written, it's, it's, I mean,

1:06:34

it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

1:06:36

it's, it's like anything else, I

1:06:38

mean, this is true, you know, all

1:06:40

types of historical work, but

1:06:42

I think people don't

1:06:45

realize it's also true of

1:06:47

the internet because it's text-based,

1:06:49

you know, video-based, but like,

1:06:51

you know, just need to

1:06:53

talk to a bunch of

1:06:55

people who were there, and then...

1:06:58

do the hard work of, of, you

1:07:00

know, who's lying, you know, what's

1:07:02

true. That's so wild. It

1:07:04

really is, that's so

1:07:06

interesting and kind of like,

1:07:08

just, yeah, that's, I've really

1:07:11

never thought about it that way

1:07:13

until you put it this way.

1:07:15

Have you written about this? No,

1:07:18

I don't know. I assumed it

1:07:20

was like obvious or something and I

1:07:22

haven't read about it. I know, but

1:07:24

I think you're so guilty of being

1:07:26

so brilliant and having this kind of

1:07:29

insight that's so simple and you think

1:07:31

everyone takes for granted and it's like

1:07:33

not, it's so obvious when you say

1:07:35

it, but it's not obvious, you should

1:07:38

write about it. Long story, you should write

1:07:40

about this. I will. I will write about

1:07:42

it. But yeah, that's why I interview

1:07:44

people all the time. Right. Right. So

1:07:46

do these case studies. And sometimes I'll

1:07:49

post the interesting ones, but I'm constantly

1:07:51

talking to people about their internet usage,

1:07:53

but it's because, like, I can't rely

1:07:55

on my own memory. I wasn't there in all

1:07:57

places at all times, but I just have

1:07:59

to. find the patterns of what themes

1:08:02

come up again and again and

1:08:04

again. Yeah. And it's, it's, you know,

1:08:06

without it, then it's like you don't

1:08:08

really have context. Like you

1:08:10

don't really know and you need

1:08:13

to constantly be talking to people

1:08:15

and, you know, constantly looking

1:08:17

at the notes. Otherwise, it's like,

1:08:20

you'll never know. I did a podcast with

1:08:22

three relatives of mine and we

1:08:24

all, there were all probably around...

1:08:26

It was like 18, 14, like

1:08:28

11, 15, 19 or something like

1:08:30

that. They were, came up in

1:08:32

this first age and I never

1:08:34

released it because they were minors

1:08:36

and I'm so glad I have it

1:08:39

though because we all looked at

1:08:41

our screen time. Weirdly the

1:08:43

oldest one had the least

1:08:45

amount of screen time. I

1:08:47

think some of that is

1:08:49

just personality. This is a person

1:08:52

who's very 80D, I can't sit

1:08:54

still of this world, wants to

1:08:56

be like out active. The other

1:08:59

one, low, second lowest screen

1:09:01

time, more than even the

1:09:03

adults, and this was because

1:09:05

they are a gamer, so

1:09:08

that was their, most of

1:09:10

their screen time went to

1:09:12

playing video games, and then

1:09:15

the youngest had a pretty

1:09:17

high, but that's a tick-tock

1:09:19

addiction. I was thinking about

1:09:21

this recently only because after the

1:09:24

TikTok, you would think that it

1:09:26

would be the kids, but the

1:09:28

adults actually all had much worse

1:09:30

screen times than the kids. And

1:09:33

I was thinking about this watching

1:09:35

all of these women I know

1:09:37

posting these very dramatic videos about

1:09:39

the 13 hours that TikTok was down

1:09:42

and these are women in their 40s.

1:09:44

And I was like, guys. I

1:09:46

get it with the kids, but I saw women

1:09:48

in their 40s having train spotting like breakdowns

1:09:51

when I went down. Nobody, the Wall Street

1:09:53

Journal just published something, I think it

1:09:55

was the Wall Street Journal, or maybe

1:09:57

it was Bloomberg, just published something about

1:09:59

this. And then I actually wrote

1:10:01

something for the Blaze about this

1:10:04

a couple of years ago.

1:10:06

Like, we talked about kids having

1:10:08

phone brain rot and that's, you

1:10:10

know, all well and good, but like,

1:10:12

there, I mean, so many, like, boomers

1:10:15

in my, and even, like, Gen X.

1:10:17

who listens to like the

1:10:19

most like, you know, it's

1:10:21

like scrolling TikTok or reels

1:10:24

without headphones, like my Gen

1:10:26

X family members, and it's

1:10:28

like a little of a

1:10:30

movie, you know, my dad

1:10:33

once started, he's also Gen

1:10:35

X and started playing

1:10:37

a podcast while we're all watching

1:10:39

a TV show, you know, snow

1:10:42

headphones. But it's like, you know,

1:10:44

I don't really believe there's a

1:10:46

distinction between Gen Z and millennials,

1:10:48

or at least as sharp of

1:10:51

a distinction as people want you

1:10:53

to believe. This is something, you know,

1:10:55

speaking of Mary Harrington that we both,

1:10:57

we're both strong believers of, that like,

1:10:59

there's, you know, what's, what's the difference?

1:11:02

Like if you were born in 1994,

1:11:04

you're really not that different from

1:11:06

someone who's born in 2000. It's

1:11:08

just as just as with me. It's a

1:11:10

false, it's a completely like

1:11:13

made up differentiation. Your

1:11:15

lifestyles are pretty much the

1:11:17

same. Yeah, it's weird. I'll be

1:11:19

doing comedy and I'll be, and

1:11:22

these kids will be doing stand-up

1:11:24

routines about how different their life,

1:11:26

it's like they try to sound

1:11:29

like they're Gen X and they're

1:11:31

like, you know, I'm a 90's

1:11:33

kid. I was born in 93.

1:11:36

I'm like, you're not a 90's

1:11:38

kid. you're not a 90s kid.

1:11:40

This is stolen valor. It's very,

1:11:43

it's very unsettling and they'll be

1:11:45

like, you know, I was like

1:11:47

smoking my weed out of

1:11:50

a, like, it's so, it's so

1:11:52

disconcerting to me because I'm like,

1:11:54

there, there, the internet compresses

1:11:57

time in that way

1:11:59

where, yeah. generation feels

1:12:01

older, younger because of

1:12:03

the internet making them

1:12:05

feel old because the internet

1:12:08

is this culture of youth. And

1:12:10

so even like these 18

1:12:12

year olds feel elderly because

1:12:14

the 14 year olds on

1:12:16

TikTok are dominating the culture

1:12:18

at the time and they

1:12:20

have all these new terms

1:12:22

and and they look at

1:12:25

18 year olds like they're

1:12:27

elderly. I mean, I remember feeling old

1:12:29

at like 22 and I like kick

1:12:31

myself. I'm like, why did it? Like

1:12:33

what the fuck was I thinking? I

1:12:35

was like, so, you know, like, oh,

1:12:37

I hit the wall and I was like

1:12:40

25 and I'm like, like, now

1:12:42

that I really is comfortable, I

1:12:44

should have appreciated being 25 a

1:12:46

little bit better. I think some

1:12:48

of that, no matter what age,

1:12:50

it is that like ages, youth

1:12:52

is wasted on the young. I

1:12:54

felt old at 21, 22. I'd also

1:12:56

already been through rehab and

1:12:58

had a kind of, you

1:13:01

know, crazy upbringing. I think

1:13:03

normal kids from normal homes

1:13:06

are feeling old and it

1:13:08

is like a very strange

1:13:10

aging because of the speed

1:13:13

at which the internet moves

1:13:15

and evolves and so I'll

1:13:17

see all these like, and

1:13:19

like the millennials are

1:13:21

posting stuff that... I'm

1:13:23

like, how old am I? Because

1:13:25

they're now, the millennials are all

1:13:27

like, I'm so old. I'm like,

1:13:30

you're 30. Like, what are you

1:13:32

talking about? You're not old.

1:13:34

And I'm with you, the like, stealing

1:13:36

90s, valor. I mean, like, that's,

1:13:39

I remember like, like,

1:13:41

I've done it myself, frankly,

1:13:43

but like, I'll remember like

1:13:45

one thing from like 1997.

1:13:47

I'm like an elementary school,

1:13:49

and I think that counts,

1:13:51

it doesn't. Yeah, it was like,

1:13:53

it was so, like, Buzzfeed would

1:13:56

always have these articles or, like, listicles,

1:13:58

like, you're not... kid if

1:14:00

right and I remember there they

1:14:02

were like in 2010 like authored by

1:14:05

like 19 year olds and it's

1:14:07

like let's be serious we

1:14:09

aren't 90s kids you remember the

1:14:11

90s we had like the echo

1:14:13

of the 90s in 2005 that's

1:14:15

right as it being the 90s no

1:14:17

it's really funny it's cute though I

1:14:19

get I get I mean I didn't

1:14:21

I wanted to be a 70s kid

1:14:23

but I knew I wanted to be

1:14:25

a 70s kid but I knew

1:14:28

I we couldn't get colludes

1:14:30

in spite of how badly

1:14:32

we wanted to. That wasn't

1:14:34

something we had access to.

1:14:36

Yeah, it's so, I don't

1:14:38

know, it's very, I look

1:14:40

at even all of these,

1:14:42

you know, people for all

1:14:44

this stuff that they say

1:14:47

about podcasting. I hope. I

1:14:49

hope it lasts because this is

1:14:51

the oral history of this time

1:14:54

and I do love podcasts and

1:14:56

I do I love our podcast

1:14:58

in particular when I talk to

1:15:01

you because it is like be I

1:15:03

get to stop and just be like

1:15:05

what the fuck is going on

1:15:07

in and where are we right

1:15:09

now and it's been the whole

1:15:11

I've never so speaking of being

1:15:13

a 90s kid I I know that

1:15:15

things swing back and forth,

1:15:18

rights left, but never in

1:15:20

my lifetime, and Megan

1:15:22

McCain was saying this recently

1:15:24

too, has the right ever

1:15:26

been cool? Like that was not

1:15:28

the thing. In my whole

1:15:30

entire life, maybe they won

1:15:33

elections, maybe they had political

1:15:35

power, maybe they had power

1:15:37

in the Supreme Court, judicial

1:15:39

power, never have they had

1:15:41

cultural... cool capital. It's even

1:15:43

like that New York magazine title

1:15:46

that was their cover that's going

1:15:48

around right now, where they're like,

1:15:50

oh, the cruel kids table and it's

1:15:52

like, well, this looks amazing. Yeah, to

1:15:55

the average one and cool and

1:15:57

like they're having a great time

1:15:59

and they're Here's what I don't understand. Why is, why

1:16:01

the assumption that they're cruel? You know what I mean? Like, they're no

1:16:03

crueler than anyone else with cultural cashier. Like, why, why, why, I just,

1:16:05

I mean, it's a great title. I have to say I have to

1:16:07

do very catchy, but like, it's like, they're not, they are mean.

1:16:09

I'm not going to, I'm not going to pretend because, you know, I want

1:16:11

to be in good soon, they, they're assholes, they, they're assholes, they're

1:16:14

assholes, they're assholes, but, they're assholes, they're assholes,

1:16:16

they're assholes, they're assholes, they're assholes, they're assholes,

1:16:18

like, they're cruel, they're cruel, they're cruel, they're

1:16:20

cruel, they're cruel, they're cruel, they're cruel, they're

1:16:23

cruel, they're cruel, they're cruel, they're cruel, they're

1:16:25

cruel, they're cruel, they're cruel Yeah,

1:16:27

it's interesting. We're living

1:16:29

through a moment and

1:16:31

because the young people

1:16:33

are seeing this, yeah,

1:16:35

this is the thing that I will

1:16:38

be very interested to see

1:16:40

how it plays out in

1:16:42

the next 10 years, 20

1:16:45

years. Because never before has

1:16:47

there been a young, like you

1:16:49

said, most young people are leftist.

1:16:51

This is maybe the first time

1:16:53

in history that they're not in,

1:16:55

in, like, in America. I can't, it's

1:16:57

usually like that joke, your left wing

1:17:00

when you're in your 20s. And I

1:17:02

was just texting with somebody last night

1:17:04

about how. I'm so glad that I

1:17:07

did my 20s as a live in

1:17:09

my 30s is like an independent, you

1:17:11

know, like I'm glad I got to

1:17:13

be the wild kind of live in

1:17:16

my 20s. These writers, these young writers,

1:17:18

it's like, I mean, this, and this

1:17:20

is a critique that gets levied all

1:17:23

the time. It's like, they're right winging

1:17:25

sort of a different way, right, like

1:17:27

they might, you know, want

1:17:29

mass deportations, but they're still

1:17:31

like. you know, sexually lascivious and

1:17:34

they do drugs and I

1:17:36

can't believe I use that

1:17:38

phrase. I'm not actually passing

1:17:40

judgment on the sex they had, I

1:17:42

don't give a buck, but like, you

1:17:44

know, they're cool if they're transmen, like

1:17:47

the they, them, MAGa, so you know

1:17:49

what I mean? It's like, it's, it's

1:17:51

just like, it's just like, it's

1:17:53

just like, it's just different,

1:17:56

but it's not like, like, they're

1:17:58

not like Alex Peek. No. I

1:18:00

just like, oh, you're like, they

1:18:02

might want mass deportations, but they're

1:18:04

still doing drugs. It's true. I

1:18:06

mean, they don't like weed. I

1:18:09

think they mostly like weed, but

1:18:11

you know, they're still going to

1:18:13

do Coke in the bathroom. Yeah.

1:18:15

Yep. I think Coke is. My

1:18:17

prediction is that Coke is going

1:18:19

to make a big comeback. Okay,

1:18:21

but the only reason Coke. So

1:18:23

Ketamine Eclipse Coke is because there's

1:18:25

fentanyl in the Coke and you

1:18:28

can just order. You can order

1:18:30

Ketamine from these DTC services and

1:18:32

it's like they're not going to

1:18:34

give you vent. So maybe Trump

1:18:36

will make Coke safe again. No,

1:18:38

this is what I've been joking

1:18:40

about on stage. I said if

1:18:42

I was Robert Kennedy, that would

1:18:44

be my platform is like, we

1:18:47

need to get the fentanyl out

1:18:49

of the coke in the heroin

1:18:51

because I joke about this. I'm

1:18:53

like, back in my day, you

1:18:55

could do drugs for decades and

1:18:57

hardly anyone died. Like that's when

1:18:59

you could be a heroin addict.

1:19:01

You could be a junkie for

1:19:03

literally decades. Decades. I

1:19:07

don't want to sound like I'm promoting people, you

1:19:09

know, doing drugs, but you know, I will say

1:19:12

that like, you know, I've known a lot of

1:19:14

people who they've gone out to party and it's

1:19:16

like they're not drug out, they're just and they

1:19:18

died, like I know one person, situation and I

1:19:20

mean, that is a real, and I think like

1:19:23

the argument is like, like, I can hear it

1:19:25

in my mind, well, they shouldn't be doing it

1:19:27

at all. Well, you can't control that, right, right?

1:19:29

So, so let's like, how do we can't control

1:19:31

that, so let's like, how do we make it's

1:19:33

like, how do we make it's like, how do

1:19:36

we make it's like, how do we make it's

1:19:38

like, how do we make it's like, how do

1:19:40

we make it's like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:19:42

like, like, like, like, like, Gotta go, gotta make

1:19:44

America healthy again and make the drugs clean. This

1:19:47

is my platform. What is your biggest defective character?

1:19:49

I always ask these questions. I was caught off

1:19:51

her. I'm wishy-washy. I think I've contradicted myself several

1:19:53

times on the show and in fact I was

1:19:55

planning on texting you. Did I contradict myself?

1:19:58

Well, I have two sets

1:20:00

this week. No, you

1:20:02

did not contradict yourself. Thank

1:20:04

you. I get so

1:20:06

excited. It's like so funny.

1:20:10

You did not contradict yourself. And even

1:20:12

if you do, it doesn't matter because

1:20:14

I contradict myself all the time because

1:20:17

we're talking. That's like, look,

1:20:19

you said this, then you

1:20:21

said that. I'm like, yeah,

1:20:23

because I'm human. People, I'm

1:20:25

not, and I'm not autistic.

1:20:27

Autistics are pretty good about

1:20:29

maintaining like a clear line

1:20:31

of thought that I feel

1:20:33

is like, Helen Pluckrose is

1:20:35

so ethically, she's

1:20:40

so sound ethically, like

1:20:42

she's, it's like she's

1:20:44

meticulous. I am not

1:20:46

meticulous. I'm a fucking

1:20:48

incoherent. I'm all

1:20:50

over the, I'm just like, I don't

1:20:52

know. And it's like, I keep like memeing

1:20:54

myself into different beliefs. And it's like,

1:20:56

I just need to accept that I'm just,

1:20:58

I'm just exploring. I just like to

1:21:00

look at all this stuff. Yeah, well, you're

1:21:02

a journalist. Yeah.

1:21:06

So you're curious. I am

1:21:08

curious, and I'm impressed. So

1:21:10

what's your defective character that

1:21:12

you're too, they can contradict

1:21:14

yourself or that you're all

1:21:17

over the place or that

1:21:19

you're... Yeah. Yeah, that I'm

1:21:21

all over the place and

1:21:23

I'm impressionable. Like if someone

1:21:25

like sells me something and

1:21:27

they believe it, I'll be

1:21:29

like, well, of course. This

1:21:32

person gets it. You're so,

1:21:34

I like, if I ever

1:21:36

have a big, I love

1:21:38

that I'm like, my plan

1:21:40

is like, acquire you. Like

1:21:42

once someday if I have

1:21:44

an empire, I'm gonna make

1:21:46

you an offer you can't

1:21:49

refuse. Because I think you're

1:21:51

truly one of, I just

1:21:53

love and appreciate you so

1:21:55

much. You're really an original

1:21:57

thinker. I know you're impressionable,

1:21:59

but because you're taking, we

1:22:01

need people like you who

1:22:04

are taking it. so much. I learned so

1:22:06

much from everything that you write. It's all, it's always

1:22:08

very original. It's just not, I

1:22:10

just appreciate your voice

1:22:12

in the culture. I, I hope

1:22:14

no one, I hope, I love your

1:22:17

perspective, I love your, I

1:22:19

love your all over, like I

1:22:22

love you. I love, you're

1:22:24

all over the placeness and,

1:22:26

and I think that it is.

1:22:30

It's something so necessary

1:22:32

right now to have somebody

1:22:35

just kind of wandering around

1:22:37

trying to make sense of

1:22:40

it all and interviewing people

1:22:42

and doing weird things and

1:22:45

looking at niche, you know,

1:22:47

fandoms and having conversations

1:22:50

with Claude. I like Claude too. I

1:22:52

feel like if Claude was a person, he,

1:22:55

I think of him as he would be

1:22:57

very handsome. But anyway, thank you. I really

1:22:59

appreciate it. I'm very touching on

1:23:01

that. What's your biggest ass at? And

1:23:03

everyone should follow your sub-sac. You put

1:23:05

out stuff for free, right? Yeah, all

1:23:07

the time. Yeah, okay. I'm not hallucinating

1:23:09

then I never know I don't even

1:23:12

this is how irresponsible I am I

1:23:14

never know who I'm paying for and

1:23:16

not I'm not sure if I'm even

1:23:18

paying for you But I will be

1:23:21

if I'm not so I'm even paying

1:23:23

for you, but I will be if

1:23:25

I'm not so I'm not so I'm

1:23:27

always like as free as this pay

1:23:30

How do I do I do this

1:23:32

for a living and I have no

1:23:34

idea what I'm doing great work?

1:23:36

please stop you know capitalizing articles because like

1:23:39

that's you know don't capitalize of the if

1:23:41

it comes in the middle of the headline

1:23:43

but I love your stuff you know like

1:23:45

I'm just constant I do write like 10

1:23:47

of those today about how I like I

1:23:49

love you know I love you but I was

1:23:52

just I was spending like $200 a month on

1:23:54

all the substack I see at the

1:23:56

beginning of the year and now I've started

1:23:58

noticing this as someone who's a subscriber

1:24:00

platform since like Patreon. I

1:24:02

guess since 2018. I'm like,

1:24:04

oh, it's the January dip.

1:24:07

Everyone's like, I'm getting my

1:24:09

shit together financially. I'm unsubscribing

1:24:11

from all of these sub

1:24:13

stacks. And you see this

1:24:15

like dip. And then it's

1:24:17

slowly like, or maybe that

1:24:19

was just me. But that's

1:24:21

been my experiences in January.

1:24:24

There's always like a bit of

1:24:26

a purge as people are like, I'm

1:24:28

getting it together. Yeah. Yeah, I think

1:24:30

because I'm not ideological and

1:24:32

I will I will hear everyone out

1:24:35

probably to a fault But many

1:24:37

good things come of that too because

1:24:39

I think like People tell on themselves

1:24:42

right sort of the cynical perspective

1:24:44

that is so you know for

1:24:46

better and for worse. I think

1:24:48

I can get a sense of

1:24:50

who people are Yeah usually for

1:24:53

better That's what I mean your

1:24:55

internet street smarts Yeah, I

1:24:57

hope so I was reading back

1:24:59

an interview yesterday, I was so

1:25:01

crazy, I'm excited to release it.

1:25:03

But speaking of people telling

1:25:05

on themselves, this guy was really like,

1:25:08

really, it was just so clear, it

1:25:10

was just so full of shit, and

1:25:12

I'm excited to publish it. When we

1:25:15

stop recording, I'm going to have

1:25:17

a conversation with the, I'm going

1:25:19

to talk to you about someone.

1:25:21

When we stop recording. My audience

1:25:24

is going to be like, that's

1:25:26

bullshit! Who's she talking shit about?

1:25:28

It's not talking shit, but it

1:25:30

was somebody that I was like,

1:25:33

whoa, one of the tougher interviews

1:25:35

I've done. All right, well,

1:25:37

where can we find you?

1:25:39

default. blog and default

1:25:41

underscore friend, you know,

1:25:44

on most platforms, but

1:25:46

especially X or Twitter

1:25:48

or whatever you want to call

1:25:50

it. I vacillate. Thank you

1:25:52

so much. All right, thanks for having

1:25:55

me. The check-in with Bridget and

1:25:57

Cousin Maggie can now be found

1:25:59

at fetacy.com. It's been titled

1:26:01

another round with Round with

1:26:03

it's now in video. and

1:26:05

it's been video. Bridget Fetacy.

1:26:07

been Bridget Fetacy and

1:26:09

you're welcome. Fettice,

1:26:11

I'm Bridget Fettice and

1:26:14

you're welcome. It's the

1:26:17

dumbest line.