0:01

Hello and

0:05

welcome to

0:08

another episode

0:12

of Radio

0:15

Warner. The

0:19

day today

0:21

is March 20th.

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2025 and this

0:25

is episode 510.

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You're listening to

0:30

Radio Warner subscribe

0:32

at patreon.com/Radio Warner.

0:34

I'm the co-host

0:36

Mark Ames in

0:38

Western New York

0:40

and I'm on

0:42

the line with

0:44

the Warner John

0:47

Dolan aka Gary

0:49

Bretcher in the heel of

0:51

Italy. How you doing John?

0:53

Any more earthquakes? I didn't

0:55

even hear about the first

0:57

earthquake really so it must

1:00

have been kind of a big

1:02

shrug for everybody around here.

1:04

Good. So today we're going

1:06

to get to a long-promised

1:08

subject which is the British

1:11

Naval Mutiny at the end

1:13

of the 18th century that

1:15

John had talked about a

1:18

few episodes back and a

1:20

few subscribers gave us the...

1:22

the old LFG. So, John,

1:24

let's fucking go on

1:26

the mutiny. Okay. The

1:29

mutiny is a big

1:31

story that doesn't

1:33

get covered very

1:35

much. And when it

1:38

does get covered, it's

1:40

sort of in the world

1:42

of British military

1:45

buffs. And it doesn't

1:47

seem to interest... non-British

1:49

people very much, which

1:52

is a shame because

1:54

I mean, I know there are a lot

1:56

of people who study for

1:59

example cronched out

2:01

and the cronched

2:03

out mutiny very carefully

2:06

but that was a

2:08

little ripple compared to

2:11

the wave of the

2:13

British mutinies which actually

2:16

started in 1797 and

2:19

continued into 1798. These

2:21

were stunning events and

2:23

they really did stun

2:26

the contemporary world

2:28

because the British fleet

2:30

was the heart of British power.

2:33

And in fact, you can

2:35

see when you step back that

2:37

the British fleet was

2:40

what sustained Britain during

2:42

the Napoleonic Wars, which

2:44

had already begun, even

2:47

though Napoleon wasn't at

2:49

his most prominent point

2:52

here, the war between

2:54

Britain and France, anyway,

2:57

revolutionary France, had... begun

2:59

years before, and there

3:02

was no chance it

3:04

emerged pretty quickly

3:07

of dealing with the

3:09

French Revolutionary

3:11

Army on land,

3:14

like attempting to

3:16

invade France, because

3:18

they were just

3:20

kicking ass all

3:22

over Europe. But

3:24

Britain had the

3:26

fleet. had a centuries-long

3:28

history of underestimating the

3:30

value of sea power.

3:33

And Britain was unable

3:35

to survive, just to

3:37

give a bit of

3:40

a spoiler alert, through

3:42

the fleet, and when

3:44

the wars ended in 1815,

3:46

the fleet suddenly was the

3:49

major power in the world

3:51

power in the world power

3:54

in the world power in

3:56

the world. the British domination

3:58

of the 19th century. more

4:00

easily if you see that

4:02

they were really the one

4:05

naval power that emerged from

4:07

those Napoleonic wars completely intact.

4:09

I mean there were other

4:12

naval powers but they were

4:14

small countries and they were

4:17

generally content to let the

4:19

British do most of the

4:21

colonizing and as they would

4:24

say in DC heavy lifting.

4:26

But there was a moment.

4:28

the moment we're

4:30

going to talk about,

4:33

where that was all

4:35

on a knife edge, because

4:38

in 1797, against

4:41

all expectation,

4:44

the heart of

4:46

British defense, the

4:49

nation's one

4:51

reliable military

4:54

arm, the fleet, revolted.

4:58

I mean, I really am

5:00

amazed at how little attention

5:02

this gets. I mean, to

5:04

some extent, it's because this

5:07

is a military history matter

5:09

that we leave to British

5:12

military patents who

5:14

are fiercely patriotic,

5:16

unlike French military patents

5:19

who seem to want

5:22

to live down any

5:24

connection with patriotism or

5:27

military. or Franco superiority,

5:29

the British have no

5:32

such allergies, and they're

5:34

very much in favor of

5:36

this, so they don't really

5:39

want to talk about this.

5:41

It was not one of

5:43

their better moments, because the

5:46

fleet, which could absolutely destroy

5:48

any other European fleet, and

5:50

they're, aside from the US,

5:53

which... is a separate category.

5:55

There were no other fleets

5:57

that were in the running.

6:00

Aside from that, the

6:02

fleet had no enemies

6:04

really. It was an

6:06

apex predator, as it

6:08

would show, once the

6:11

Napoleonic threat was over.

6:13

And suddenly, there was

6:15

like a cancer at

6:17

the heart of the

6:19

fleet. That is, the two

6:21

mutinies, the spithead and

6:24

the nor. We'll get

6:26

to what those are a

6:28

little later. But the two

6:30

big fleets that were

6:33

going to have

6:35

to intervene in

6:37

Europe and patrol

6:39

European shores to

6:42

maintain the boycott

6:44

of Napoleonic

6:46

Europe suddenly

6:48

refused to fight

6:50

anymore. And we're very

6:53

close to sailing their

6:56

ships into French

6:58

ports. And there were

7:00

two mutinies, the

7:02

spithead mutiny and

7:05

the norm mutiny.

7:07

The spithead mutiny

7:09

quickly assumed the

7:11

characteristics of

7:14

an industrial dispute,

7:16

as many British

7:19

historians try to call

7:21

it. It was not exactly

7:23

that. It was a little

7:25

more... influenced

7:28

by developments

7:30

within France and the

7:32

United States, and the

7:35

general discussed for

7:37

the reign of the

7:39

Georgian kings in England

7:41

because they seem to

7:43

live forever and do

7:46

nothing just opposing everything

7:48

that might improve the

7:50

country. But the... They made for

7:52

good characters in Blackadder is about

7:55

oh, they did they did yeah,

7:57

yeah, yeah, I mean Blackadder is

7:59

an extraordinary

8:02

series in some ways. I

8:04

mean, they, uh, they destroy certain

8:06

deeply held shibileths of

8:09

the British Orthodoxy like,

8:11

uh, there's an episode

8:14

in the World War

8:16

One episode of Blackadder

8:18

where they say, oh, come on.

8:21

German inroads in our

8:23

colonies. They have about

8:25

two acres of Africa

8:27

that you gave them.

8:29

And then... You know,

8:31

there's one that really

8:34

astounded me in the

8:36

Elizabethan Blackadder, where the

8:38

Puritan aunt visits him

8:40

and says, wicked boy, after

8:43

he complains of the cold,

8:45

wicked boy, cold is God's

8:48

way of telling us to

8:50

burn more Catholics. And that's

8:53

an astounding mention in British

8:55

history. And I think... the

8:58

naval mutinies of 1797, 1798,

9:00

have sort of been memory-hold

9:03

in a similar way. You

9:05

would think, you know, they

9:08

would be great examples for

9:10

the more radical socialist

9:12

wing of the British

9:14

left, but I haven't seen

9:16

that. In fact, my latest

9:18

book that I've read and

9:21

relied on to some extent

9:23

for this episode is...

9:25

by a pretty standard

9:27

naval history fan, Philip

9:30

McDougal, and his

9:32

book is called

9:34

The Naval Mutinies

9:36

of 1798, and then it

9:38

has a colon, the Irish

9:41

plot to seize the Channel

9:43

Fleet. Now that's where we

9:45

get into some doubtful territory.

9:47

And in this case, that's

9:49

a little weird, you know,

9:51

the something something the Jewish

9:53

plot to see something, you

9:55

know, like, oh, well, that

9:57

is still a very strong.

10:00

and in English historiography,

10:02

including some very eminent

10:05

leftist historians that we

10:07

will forbear to mention.

10:10

But I've read other accounts

10:12

of this mutiny that really

10:14

did not stress the Irish

10:17

component nearly as much. I

10:19

mean, there was one that

10:21

was popular about 10 years

10:23

ago that I can't really

10:25

remember the name of, but

10:27

it really stressed the... daily

10:29

horror of being in the

10:32

Royal Navy and that rang

10:34

perfectly true and I think

10:36

it would have given anybody

10:38

plenty of reason to revolt.

10:40

I mean it's right to

10:43

revolt may be a slogan

10:45

now but it was very

10:47

very right to revolt if

10:49

you had to serve on

10:51

a ship. There are other

10:54

conditions that involved the degree

10:56

of misery and the degree

10:58

of... rage among these crews.

11:00

First of all, many of

11:02

them were not there

11:05

because they, quote, volunteered.

11:07

In fact, what's volunteering?

11:09

If you're going to

11:12

starve, starving was

11:14

a real possibility for

11:16

poor English, let alone

11:18

Irish or Scottish people.

11:21

You might as well

11:23

volunteer for the Navy

11:25

because somebody would feed

11:27

you something. This was a

11:30

very different world from the

11:32

one we think of as

11:34

normal. The populations

11:36

of Britain and Ireland, for

11:39

example, were not at all

11:41

skewed the way they are

11:43

now. Ireland never recovered from

11:46

the artificial famine. It suffered

11:48

in the middle of the

11:50

19th century. Well, it suffered

11:53

or it was... imposed upon.

11:55

I'm a like the fourth

11:57

star nation in a I

12:00

think it's a starvation. Yeah.

12:02

There's a Flan O'Brien line.

12:04

I broke my leg or

12:07

rather I had it broken

12:09

for me. And that kind

12:11

of applies to the sudden

12:14

devastating population drop in Ireland

12:16

in the middle of the

12:18

19th century when every other

12:21

European population was zooming ahead

12:23

in population. So it is

12:25

plausible in line with this

12:27

recent book by McDougal that.

12:30

England would have been frightened

12:32

of an Irish component to

12:34

these naval revolts. In fact,

12:37

they tended to blame almost

12:39

everything. I'm sorry, I just

12:41

wanted to reiterate, yeah, but

12:44

the estimates are rough, although

12:46

there was an actual census

12:48

in 1801, but the estimate

12:50

is roughly 5 million in

12:52

Ireland and at least in

12:55

England itself, roughly 8

12:57

million. Ireland's population

13:00

is 5 million and at

13:03

least 60. Yeah, it

13:06

says something about how

13:08

genocide works. Yeah, yeah,

13:11

they had a strange

13:13

lingering effect after

13:16

the famine too.

13:18

The land ownership

13:20

became. very important Irish

13:22

family size which had

13:25

been the biggest in

13:27

Western Europe I think

13:29

suddenly shrank the the

13:32

age of marriage went

13:34

from something like 19 to

13:36

something like 40 it was a

13:39

radically different

13:41

country yeah so that's

13:43

one thing to keep in

13:45

mind so that there probably

13:47

was a real fear of

13:50

the Irish And it's connected

13:52

to that. The ships tended to

13:54

be stuffed with people who

13:57

either had no other economic

13:59

option. and joined the

14:01

Navy because they could at

14:03

least get a few meals,

14:05

though those meals were not

14:08

that great. And they would

14:10

keep body and soul together.

14:12

They may have had to

14:14

live in a stinking cargo

14:16

shed basically on the water,

14:19

but at least they would

14:21

be out of the rain.

14:23

So the very poor

14:26

joined the Royal Navy,

14:28

a small class of...

14:30

able-bodied seamen joined the

14:33

Navy, and many people

14:35

who were convicted of

14:38

crimes and given the

14:40

option of prison

14:42

or hanging or joining

14:45

the Navy were also

14:47

in the ranks. Then

14:49

there's a fourth class,

14:52

the people who were

14:54

put in the Navy by

14:56

getting... in some way coerced

14:58

by press gangs in naval

15:01

towns, because there have been

15:03

a lot of exaggerations

15:05

about this, but there

15:07

definitely were press gangs,

15:09

and they definitely grabbed

15:11

people, much as we've

15:13

seen, the Ukrainian army

15:16

grabbed people off the

15:18

streets. And they needed

15:20

everybody they could get

15:22

at this point, because...

15:24

One thing about naval

15:26

warfare is that it's at

15:28

this point, roughly at

15:30

the end of the

15:32

18th century, it's very

15:34

labor intensive, so that if

15:37

you wanted to have a

15:39

frigate, like a mid-sized armed

15:41

naval ship, you needed 300

15:44

crew. You didn't need that

15:46

many to do the sales

15:48

and scrub the deck, but...

15:50

If you needed them, if

15:53

you were in combat, you

15:55

needed a lot of crews.

15:57

I mean, every cannon had

15:59

to. be served by a

16:01

half dozen people. And they

16:04

were going to expect casualties

16:06

too. So a lot of

16:09

these people were just lying

16:11

around. There's also the factor

16:13

that in the later part

16:16

of the 18th century, the

16:18

Royal Navy was in some

16:21

ways innovative, not in any

16:23

way that would make the

16:26

crew more comfortable really. But

16:28

in certain ways that made

16:31

the ships able to stay

16:33

at sea far longer. For

16:35

example, they used to have

16:38

to come in onshore to

16:40

get the hull scraped. Otherwise,

16:43

the shipworms would just bore

16:45

right through them. But they

16:48

discovered that copper was poisonous

16:50

to these marine worms. And

16:53

if you sheathed the hull

16:55

in copper, you could stay

16:57

out to see for years,

17:00

literally years, which was great

17:02

news for the higher officers.

17:05

But really bad news for

17:07

the people who were in

17:10

those stinking holds. Sea worms

17:12

were the average Navy Grunt's

17:15

best friend. I mean, my

17:17

God. At least those leaves

17:19

to scrape the hull of

17:22

parasites gave you some time

17:24

on shore. that was ended

17:27

once they copper-bottomed the ships

17:29

of the Royal Navy. The

17:32

other abiding problems were discipline

17:34

and the food. I mean,

17:37

the food was just god-awful,

17:39

by all accounts. There are

17:41

some attempts in a revisionist

17:44

way to say, no, it

17:46

wasn't that bad, compared to

17:49

what the average beggar picked

17:51

up in the... in the

17:54

gutters and you know at

17:56

that point it becomes kind

17:59

of a silly comparison. the

18:01

food was unrelentingly sea biscuit

18:03

and the kind of beef

18:06

that was preserved in salt

18:08

but and I don't fully

18:11

understand how this was done

18:13

but preserved in salt but

18:16

not often in vats of

18:18

salt water you see pictures

18:21

drawings drawings drawings drawings drawings

18:23

drawings drawings drawings drawings drawings

18:25

drawings drawings drawings drawings drawings

18:28

drawings drawings drawings drawings drawings

18:30

drawings drawings drawings drawings drawings

18:33

drawings drawings drawings drawings paintings

18:35

of naval cooks, often with

18:38

mallets and chisels, chopping out

18:40

bits of salt beef from

18:42

gigantic blocks of it. So

18:45

they had a way of

18:47

preserving it in salt, which

18:50

by all accounts made it

18:52

completely nauseating and stinking, but

18:55

could keep it more or

18:57

less fit for. semi-human consumption

19:00

for some time. And you

19:02

mixed all these together with

19:04

any vegetables if you had

19:07

them, but they often did

19:09

not have them, and when

19:12

they did have them, they

19:14

were desiccated in a primitive

19:17

way and not particularly appetizing.

19:19

So it was a grim

19:22

life. I mean, I know

19:24

there have been attempts to

19:26

revise it often by historians.

19:29

closely linked to the patriotic

19:31

tradition in Britain, which is

19:34

itself closely linked to the

19:36

naval tradition. But in fact,

19:39

I remember a recent article

19:41

that I actually put on

19:44

Facebook, because it was by

19:46

a writer who had done

19:48

a voyage, replicating Darwin's voyage

19:51

around the world, or at

19:53

least his voyage from Britain

19:56

to Australia. and he was

19:58

very gung-ho about it and

20:01

he said, I loved it,

20:03

it was like a vacation,

20:06

and I was saying, well,

20:08

you ever think maybe it

20:10

wasn't quite... I like serving

20:13

in the Royal Navy, circuit

20:15

1790, but he just had,

20:18

he loved it, he was

20:20

great. Anyway, I suspect things

20:23

were a little rougher in

20:25

1790, and they were rougher

20:28

for the underclass in particular

20:30

because they had to deal

20:32

with naval officers who were

20:35

often... a very scary bunch

20:37

of people, very weird. The

20:40

younger sons of the gentry

20:42

who often had a point

20:45

to prove about themselves, or

20:47

had once maybe been halfway

20:50

decent officers and had spent

20:52

a little too much time

20:54

out at sea and had

20:57

gone weird in some way

20:59

or other. So I thought

21:02

as a way of illustrating

21:04

the motivations for the mutiny,

21:07

I would read this bio

21:09

of, or rather summarize, this

21:12

bio of a naval veteran

21:14

of Britain. He was, first

21:16

of all, he was Irish,

21:19

and that was very typical.

21:21

The Irish population was not

21:24

only almost half that of

21:26

England, but they were also

21:29

vastly poorer. than the average

21:31

person in Britain, and therefore

21:34

more likely to join up

21:36

or be dragooned into the

21:38

Navy. So this guy's name

21:41

is David O'Brien Casey. Also,

21:43

I would imagine probably not

21:46

a lot of ways for

21:48

somebody who's Irish, from the

21:51

Irish underclass to, I don't

21:53

know, to... Get Ahead may

21:56

not be quite the right

21:58

way to put it, but

22:00

to get ahead, you know

22:03

in the English Empire Yeah,

22:05

and this is true in

22:08

a lot of cultures, but

22:10

the military you have that

22:13

chance is one way to,

22:15

I don't know, maybe get

22:17

ahead and crawl out of

22:20

your ghetto. Absolutely. And this,

22:22

well, it happens in America

22:25

too. And the career of

22:27

Casey was very typical of

22:30

this way. Like, you know,

22:32

maybe you die, but if

22:35

you don't die, maybe you

22:37

get promoted. you're promoted into

22:39

something like the lower middle

22:42

class, and that's almost a

22:44

dream for a lot of

22:47

these people. Because yeah, you

22:49

have to remember, after the

22:52

18th century or during the

22:54

course of the 18th century,

22:57

Irish industries were pretty much

22:59

exterminated, except for Belfast, which

23:01

was, which got... separate treatment,

23:04

but they were considered to

23:06

be competitors with English industry

23:09

and they were not wanted.

23:11

Ireland was wanted as a

23:14

source of cheap, desperate labor

23:16

and of farm supplies. They

23:19

did not want Irish textile

23:21

industry, for example, and they

23:23

wiped it out pretty thoroughly.

23:26

the Irish penal laws, the

23:28

laws that govern what Irish

23:31

Catholics, and to some extent

23:33

this involves only Irish Catholics,

23:36

to some extent it involved

23:38

everyone who was in Ireland,

23:41

including the large Protestant population,

23:43

that they were forbidden to

23:45

engage in all kinds of

23:48

business and forbidden to engage

23:50

in all kinds of conduct

23:53

like all those. colorful Irish

23:55

traditions like the Shalale were

23:58

the results of the fact

24:00

that Irish Catholics were forbidden

24:03

to carry weapons. And so

24:05

all they could do is

24:07

like, hmm, suppose I just

24:10

carry a walking stick and

24:12

pour a little lead into

24:15

the head of it. That

24:17

would make a nice weapon.

24:20

But if a cop stops

24:22

you, you know, you could

24:25

say, it's just a walking

24:27

stick. The Zulu, actually, in

24:29

the British administration, carried umbrellas

24:32

in very much the same

24:34

way, and you would apparently

24:37

see Zulu men. walking around

24:39

with furled umbrellas, and it

24:42

would be like, no clouds

24:44

in the sky and 100

24:47

degrees. How come you got

24:49

this umbrella? It's like, none

24:51

of your business. So yeah,

24:54

there's a lot of innovation

24:56

like that, but it's basically

24:59

because your life is trampled

25:01

and restricted in a million

25:04

different ways. So David O'Brien

25:06

Casey is born in that

25:09

tradition. He enters the Navy

25:11

in a very important year.

25:13

The year, the French Revolution

25:16

begins, 1789. He's a captain's

25:18

servant in the 24-gun ship

25:21

Hyena. And... Great name for

25:23

a ship, by the way.

25:26

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. They

25:29

quickly get involved in

25:31

the Franco-Anglo-war when the

25:33

French capture his ship

25:35

in the Caribbean. They

25:37

come upon a French

25:39

40-gun ship and they're

25:41

outgunned and this is

25:43

one of those British

25:45

naval losses you never

25:47

hear about. Like this

25:49

guy who wrote the

25:51

article about what a

25:54

jolly time he had.

25:56

going on a replica

25:58

void. to Australia said,

26:00

after all, the Royal

26:02

Navy never lost a

26:04

battle. No, they lost

26:06

a lot of battles,

26:08

but they won more

26:10

often than they lost.

26:12

Absolutely. They were formidable

26:14

force, but they lost

26:17

a lot of battles.

26:19

I mean, that's how

26:21

they lost in Cornwallis'

26:23

expedition in the southern

26:25

US. I mean, there

26:27

was a fight between

26:29

a French fleet. and

26:31

a British fleet to

26:33

see whether anyone would

26:35

relieve Corn Wallace and

26:37

the French fleet won

26:39

and Corn Wallace had

26:42

to surrender. That tends

26:44

to get memory hold

26:46

as well, but anyway,

26:48

so he's then a

26:50

prisoner with the entire

26:52

crew at what was

26:54

then Saint-Dominge, later to

26:56

become Haiti and Dominican

26:58

Republic. when it

27:01

revolted against the French

27:03

and provided a real

27:05

example of revolutionary order

27:07

for most of Europe.

27:09

In 1793, he gets

27:11

involved in that fighting

27:13

and his uncle is

27:15

killed. So he makes

27:17

his way to Jamaica,

27:19

which is an English

27:21

possession. He joins the

27:23

Hermioni. I never know

27:25

how to pronounce that

27:27

from, you know, I

27:29

think a generation of

27:31

people after me grew

27:34

up knowing how to

27:36

pronounce it from Harry

27:38

Potter. I think it's

27:40

Hermioni. The Hermioni is

27:42

not one of those

27:44

happy ships like this

27:46

replica sailor sailed on.

27:48

This was one of

27:50

those real ships. Uh.

27:52

with a lunatic for

27:54

a captain and no

27:56

hygienic practices. The Hermione

27:58

lost half its crew

28:00

to disease in four

28:02

months in the West

28:04

Indies. And it's not

28:06

clear how that happened

28:09

because certainly there were

28:11

a lot of mosquito-borne

28:13

diseases and water-borne diseases

28:15

in a tropical environment

28:17

which could easily kill

28:19

you. but it could

28:21

also be that the

28:23

ship wasn't handled very

28:25

well. So the remains

28:27

of the crew, they

28:29

didn't have the people

28:31

to crew it anymore.

28:33

So he transferred to

28:35

a ship called the

28:37

Swift Shore. The Swift

28:39

Shore accompanied another schooner

28:42

which had wine to

28:44

unload at... Cape Nicola

28:46

Molle, which was on

28:48

the north shore of

28:50

Haiti. They missed the

28:52

harbor and hit the

28:54

rocks, and only two

28:56

men survived. Naval shipwrecks

28:58

were pretty lethal things.

29:00

You generally didn't survive.

29:02

A lot of sailors

29:04

didn't know how to

29:06

swim. the shark populations

29:08

had not nearly been

29:10

reduced to current levels.

29:12

So two men survived.

29:14

He was one of

29:17

them. So already, you

29:19

know, he's like been

29:21

winnowed out. This Darwinian

29:23

process that killed a

29:25

lot of other people

29:27

in the same intake

29:29

he was. So he

29:31

got an appointment as

29:33

a sort of officer.

29:35

Because by this point,

29:37

you know, the British

29:39

Navy is running very

29:41

short of people under

29:43

Captain Tazden. who he

29:45

notes as a very

29:47

strict and severe officer.

29:49

So if you're noted

29:52

as a strict and

29:54

severe officer in the

29:56

British Navy, yeah, you're

29:58

you're raving lunatic. Yes,

30:00

you're to the right

30:02

of go of like

30:04

himler or something like

30:06

yeah. Yep. The ship

30:08

becomes entangled in a

30:10

coral reef and Casey

30:12

is the man on

30:14

duty at the time

30:16

watching. the ship to

30:18

keep it out of

30:20

danger. And for that

30:22

he's court-martialed for negligence

30:24

and more importantly for

30:27

disagreeing with his captain

30:29

when he tried to

30:31

justify himself like, I

30:33

had nothing to do

30:35

with this. I, you

30:37

know, God knows what

30:39

he told him, but

30:41

like, ah. Anyway, you

30:43

didn't disagree with the

30:45

captain. There was a

30:47

tradition that the captain

30:49

is authority, as long

30:51

as you're at sea.

30:53

Your captain has authority

30:55

over life and death.

30:57

When he's court-martialed, he

30:59

gets transferred to another

31:02

ship. This was now

31:04

under the command of

31:06

another bad captain. There

31:08

were a lot of

31:10

bad captains. And this

31:12

guy is named Hugh

31:14

Piggett. God, that's like,

31:16

yeah, that's like something

31:18

from, I don't know,

31:20

Dickens or Waugh or

31:22

something. Yeah, you pig.

31:24

And I'll just read

31:26

from the description here.

31:28

Pickett was a cruel

31:30

officer who meted out

31:32

severe and arbitrary punishments

31:35

to his crew and

31:37

developed the practice of

31:39

flogging the last sailor

31:41

down from working the

31:43

sales from working the

31:45

sales from working the

31:47

sales. And they became

31:49

so terrified of being

31:51

the last one to

31:53

come down out of

31:55

the rigging that... three

31:57

sailors in their haste

31:59

to get down from

32:01

the rigging jumped down

32:03

onto the deck and

32:05

one of them hit

32:07

and injured one of

32:10

the masters Southcott because

32:12

he landed on him.

32:14

I mean they were

32:16

willing to risk their

32:18

lives and their legs

32:20

to to land on

32:22

the deck sooner than

32:24

the other two because

32:26

the last man was

32:28

going to be flogged.

32:30

It seems sort of

32:32

like a PE times

32:34

a thousand, forever and

32:36

ever. They died though,

32:38

you're right here. The

32:40

three of the sailors

32:42

died and yeah, including

32:45

one of them that

32:47

hit Southcott. Yeah, or

32:49

or they were dying

32:51

and he threw them

32:53

overboard anyway. Yeah, he

32:55

ordered them quote, throw

32:57

the lubbers overboard. In

33:00

a nine-month period, Captain

33:02

Pickett ordered 85 floggings,

33:04

that is half the

33:06

crew. At least two

33:08

of the men who were

33:10

flogged died from their injuries.

33:13

So that's something of the

33:15

ardor that drove people crazy.

33:18

I mean, I know that

33:20

there's a fad in current

33:23

British historiography, I think...

33:25

There have been many, many

33:27

other such fads to say,

33:30

it wasn't that bad. I

33:32

kind of think it was.

33:35

And I kind of think

33:37

they're lying. It sounds like

33:40

one of the really,

33:42

you know, one of the

33:44

worst types of slave plantations

33:47

in the South. Like there

33:49

were different types of slave

33:52

writers or, you know, different,

33:54

different masters at varying degrees

33:57

of cruelty. This guy

33:59

in particular sounds like he's

34:01

more on the very cruel

34:04

end, but it's very similar

34:07

in a way. like yeah

34:09

you know his other captain

34:12

was known captain Twisden

34:14

was known as quote a

34:16

very strict and severe officer

34:19

yeah so there were a

34:21

lot of them I mean

34:24

there wasn't a whole lot

34:26

of you know variation there

34:29

there was one guy

34:31

who's a very strict and

34:33

severe officer and another guy

34:36

is wait what's this another

34:38

strict and severe officer thanks

34:41

for the big venue yeah

34:43

the odds were bad I

34:46

mean, I have to

34:48

say in Cook's defense, and

34:50

Cook sometimes gets made into

34:53

a villain because he contacted

34:55

a lot of aboriginal peoples,

34:58

but he himself did not

35:00

behave badly in those encounters,

35:03

and he was known

35:05

both for his relatively low

35:07

birth and for his... humanity

35:10

towards his crew. And, you

35:12

know, in his voyage around

35:15

the world, Cook lost one

35:17

man. I mean, that's extraordinary.

35:20

And I somehow wanted

35:22

to say something for Cook,

35:24

because, you know, Cook was

35:27

a good man. To the

35:29

extent that you could be

35:32

serving a very rough empire.

35:34

So... There were a

35:36

lot of good reasons to

35:39

be a little disgruntled with

35:41

the Royal Navy and the

35:44

terms of service in it.

35:46

There are many other things

35:49

going on. I mean the

35:51

world is changing very

35:53

rapidly in the 1790s. There

35:56

is the echo of the

35:58

United States. revolution, which included

36:01

a lot of French enlightenment,

36:03

intellectual baggage that. made its

36:06

way into the English-speaking elite

36:09

through propagandists like Thomas

36:11

Paine. Right, Thomas Paine. And

36:13

the sailors seemed to have

36:16

been a relatively literate lot.

36:18

They may not have had

36:21

any money or any rights,

36:23

but they were fairly literate

36:26

and even if they

36:28

weren't, you can find somebody

36:30

to read things to you.

36:33

I mean, they're all together,

36:35

you know, and all you

36:38

need are a few literate

36:40

people to educate. And

36:42

what are you going to

36:45

do all day when you're

36:47

not getting beaten or running

36:50

up the sale and down

36:52

the sale? It's, yeah. So

36:55

I'll just do a little

36:57

footnote about what happened

36:59

to the hermioni. that the

37:02

big mutinies in the fleets

37:04

back in England occurred. That

37:07

is 20th September 1797. The

37:09

crew of the Hermione revolted

37:12

against their captain Piggett. Right,

37:14

just to repeat here,

37:16

so David O'Brien Casey, the

37:19

figure we're following here, is

37:21

back on the... Hermione, right,

37:24

when this happens with Captain

37:26

Hugh Piggett. Okay, yeah. Yeah.

37:29

Okay. It was the bloodiest

37:31

mutiny in British naval

37:33

history. Captain Hugh Piggett was

37:36

in command. And basically they

37:38

said, the first thing we

37:41

do is go in and

37:43

kill the captain in the

37:46

officers. And they did. They

37:48

actually broke into his

37:50

cabin, killed the guard and

37:53

hacked him up and threw

37:55

him out. into the sea

37:58

while still living, which I

38:00

have to admit, I've been

38:03

watching a lot of

38:05

shark videos and that's like,

38:08

please, please kill me on

38:10

death. Yes, yes. I don't

38:13

care who gets my carcass,

38:15

but I would prefer to

38:18

be dead at the time.

38:20

So pick it and

38:22

most of the officers were

38:25

killed. The mutineers handed the

38:27

ship over to the Spanish.

38:30

The bitter irony here is

38:32

that the... Spanish were intensely

38:35

monarchist and they were appalled

38:37

that these people had

38:39

been hearing French revolutionary ideas

38:42

and daring to overthrow their

38:44

own captain. So they barely

38:47

tolerated these people. They set

38:49

them free with a few

38:52

shillings and said get out

38:54

of here. Now the

38:56

composition of the crew is

38:59

interesting on this particular ship.

39:01

About half of the crew

39:04

had been born in England

39:06

and about a fifth in

39:09

Ireland. The remaining sailors

39:11

were from Germany, Norway, Canada,

39:13

and Portugal. Two of them

39:16

were of African descent. At

39:18

least 20 were Americans. a

39:21

slight majority appear to be

39:23

Americans and maybe because they

39:26

got bonuses for enlisting.

39:28

There were quite a number

39:30

of them who had just

39:33

been pressed into service. I

39:35

mean either hit on the

39:38

head or just dragged aboard

39:40

by a big party that

39:43

just wanted bodies. They

39:45

seemed to have felt that

39:47

you could learn. whatever you

39:50

needed to learn to be

39:52

in the Royal Navy and

39:55

if you didn't they they

39:57

beat you until you learned

40:00

it. So, the mutiny

40:02

was extraordinary in its brutality,

40:04

but that was because Pickett

40:07

was a fairly extraordinary captain.

40:10

But it's important to remember

40:12

that only about half of

40:15

the crew was English. The

40:17

others, a fifth were

40:19

Irish, and by this time,

40:22

I don't know, as I

40:24

said, whether the Irish thesis

40:27

that McDougal uses is really

40:29

correct. I think it might

40:32

be a bit exaggerate,

40:34

but the Irish population had

40:36

been living under the penal

40:39

laws for a century, and

40:41

they were raised... in hedge

40:44

schools, if they got schooling

40:46

at all, and a hedge

40:49

school was where Catholics

40:51

who were forbidden to be

40:53

educated tried to organize an

40:56

education, and it was usually

40:58

priests who did this, and

41:01

they were, the priests were

41:03

subject to execution, if found,

41:06

at least in the

41:08

18th century. And there was

41:10

a... no love loss for

41:13

the empire. It was not

41:15

really trying to be a

41:18

nice nice, the way it

41:20

did later on. What were

41:23

the penal laws? The

41:25

penal laws were a set

41:27

of quite punitive laws meant

41:30

to coerce or suborn the

41:32

Irish population into abandoning Catholicism.

41:35

They were directed at... people

41:37

who adhered to Catholicism

41:39

because that really was an

41:42

ethnic divider at the time.

41:44

and they meant that you

41:47

could not enter certain professions,

41:49

you could not carry weapons,

41:52

you could not own land,

41:54

in fact, so that

41:56

at the end of the

41:59

18th century, only about 7%

42:01

of the land in Ireland

42:04

was under Irish ownership. They

42:06

were very effective, they were

42:09

very cruel, but most of

42:12

all... they were intended

42:14

to prevent the spread of

42:16

literacy in a population. And

42:19

to their credit, the Irish

42:21

peasantry had access to this

42:24

body of literate men, the

42:26

priests, who circulated among them

42:29

secretly and taught their

42:31

children in hedge schools, meaning

42:33

in the shadow of the

42:36

hedges. Although I personally kind

42:38

of doubt with an Irish

42:41

climate, you could teach school

42:43

in a hedge. I

42:45

would personally much rather be

42:48

inside when I tried to

42:50

learn the alphabet and such.

42:53

So I think they use,

42:55

you know, ordinary sheds or

42:58

cabins or hovels as was

43:00

prevailing rather than... I

43:02

just have to say, I

43:05

mean, for people wondering why

43:07

Ireland among Western European countries

43:10

is supportive... of Palestine and

43:12

can understand what people in

43:15

Gaza are going through, not

43:17

just from, you know,

43:19

from having read a book

43:22

in college or something, but

43:24

from deep history. It's just,

43:27

the more you know about

43:29

Irish history, the clearer it

43:32

is. And another thing I

43:34

would say for future

43:36

episodes, but I mean, it

43:39

seems pretty damn clear that

43:41

these stories you tell that

43:44

Ireland was the laboratory for...

43:46

the British Empire to be,

43:49

you know, exported elsewhere in

43:51

the British Empire as

43:53

they expanded like that. Absolutely.

43:56

But you know, it was

43:58

also the laboratory for theories

44:01

of resistance and a lot

44:03

of the, I mean, during

44:06

the 18th century, for

44:08

example, Ireland was an overwhelmingly

44:10

rural country and the peasantry

44:13

which had been stripped of

44:16

all its land. retaliated largely

44:18

by burning haystacks and laming

44:21

and just killing cattle in

44:23

the fields that now

44:25

belong to their foreign overlords.

44:28

And there were other strategies,

44:30

for example, to protect people

44:33

who were being evicted from

44:35

their property such that you

44:38

know... you would just make

44:40

it known that anyone

44:42

who bought this property was

44:45

likely to regret it. It's,

44:47

I was just saying, it's

44:50

a little bit like people

44:52

setting fire to Tesla's supercharging

44:55

stations and stuff, but on

44:57

a much more serious

44:59

and scale with a lot

45:02

more serious consequences and everything.

45:04

But, you know, in a

45:07

minor way. Oh, I'm sure

45:09

they'd have set fire to

45:12

Tesla's stations if they'd

45:14

had any. There might have

45:16

been other ways to make

45:19

a profit from them. But

45:21

one of the results of

45:24

this, and this is in

45:26

support of McDougal's Irish theory

45:29

about the fleet mutinies,

45:31

which I don't fully hold

45:33

to, I have to say

45:36

is that they developed a

45:38

certain expertise in guerrilla movements,

45:41

either from... membership in the

45:43

defenders or just if you

45:46

know as a neighborhood

45:48

tradition, oh yeah, we have

45:50

the defenders, you know, they

45:53

go out and they lame

45:55

the landline. cattle, and maybe

45:58

we could choose something like

46:00

that on board this ship,

46:03

you know, because there

46:05

were reports during the mutinies

46:07

on the nor, which was

46:10

the more radical of the

46:12

two mutinies, that the Irish

46:15

contingent among the crews did

46:18

function as an ad hoc

46:20

guerrilla force, that one

46:22

of them is reported to

46:25

have said, if I give

46:27

the word, I can have

46:30

25 men to back me,

46:32

and we will tear apart

46:35

anyone who informs or

46:37

snitches on it. Kind of

46:39

reminds me of that bit

46:42

insulting itself, where he describes

46:44

the maddening passivity of the

46:47

Russian intellectuals in the camps

46:49

who let the... the Vorovskorna

46:52

Rob them and all

46:54

that, but then the Ukrainian

46:56

rebels came in and they

46:59

had no objection to using

47:01

knives. That was like, okay,

47:04

you got a knife, I

47:06

got a knife. Let's see

47:09

who wins. So that

47:11

did pay off, you know,

47:13

in a really practical way

47:16

for the mutonies that were

47:18

shortly going to begin to

47:21

begin. It also, though, raise

47:23

certain ethnic tensions, which were

47:26

partly to blame for

47:28

destroying the mutinies. And we'll

47:30

take a break here and

47:33

come back. Music

49:13

Music Okay, we're back

49:15

and John, why why

49:17

don't you pick

49:20

it up where

49:22

you left off? up

49:24

where you left getting

49:26

to the point

49:28

at which the which

49:30

the giant naval mutinies in the

49:32

spithead anchorage the the nor

49:34

really begin to explode.

49:36

All the stage stage has

49:38

been set. Above all, the

49:41

the British Empire has

49:44

made a fatal mistake, which

49:46

which is by impoverishing

49:48

this very large ethnic

49:50

minority, barely even a

49:53

minority, the The

49:55

Irish, it has driven

49:58

a great

50:00

many of

50:02

them. them. into

50:04

the ranks of the

50:06

Royal Navy. And those

50:08

people are in many

50:11

cases used to being

50:13

part of a secret

50:15

society, used to be

50:17

opposing the official order,

50:19

and are very easily

50:22

recruited. And then to

50:24

say this is to

50:26

say, yeah, there's something

50:28

to Philip McDougal's thesis

50:30

about. the Irish component

50:32

here. I don't think

50:35

it's the whole thing,

50:37

but I think it's

50:39

an important part. The

50:41

other important parts are

50:43

what is going on

50:46

in France, and the

50:48

French Revolution has been

50:50

smeared a lot of

50:52

times, and it has

50:54

generally got a very

50:57

unpleasant reputation in the

50:59

English-speaking world, but that

51:01

was not the case

51:03

in the case in

51:05

the 1790s. For example,

51:07

William Blake was arrested

51:10

and held by military,

51:12

not even a military

51:14

court, just a group

51:16

of soldiers for lounging

51:18

around the coast and

51:21

voicing disrespectful. comments about

51:23

the French, supposedly something

51:25

on the lines of,

51:27

I hope they do

51:29

come. And that was

51:32

very dangerous. That was

51:34

enough to get him

51:36

held, but Blake led

51:38

some sort of charmed

51:40

life. Maybe literally. He

51:42

did talk to angels

51:45

all day. I don't

51:47

know. In his case,

51:49

I'm not sure that

51:51

it was strictly schizophrenia,

51:53

okay? It's like, there's

51:56

schizophrenia, and then there's

51:58

weird. So the sympathy

52:00

for France among the

52:02

lower classes is really

52:04

intense, just as intense

52:06

as the hatred for

52:09

France in the upper

52:11

classes. The Irish compose

52:13

not only a big

52:15

population in sympathy with

52:17

France, Remember there's an

52:20

Irish song from 1798.

52:22

Oh, the French are

52:24

on the sea, says

52:26

the Shan Van Vaud,

52:28

the old gray woman.

52:31

The French are on

52:33

the sea, says the

52:35

Shan Van Vaud. The

52:37

French are on the

52:39

sea, they'll be here.

52:41

I don't know. But

52:44

anyway, it's like, yay,

52:46

we're going to get

52:48

free in all this.

52:50

But this was very,

52:52

very big in the

52:55

English population as well.

52:57

And it was even

52:59

big in a population

53:01

that... after 1798, turned

53:03

away from revolution, and

53:05

that is the Protestants

53:08

of Ireland. They too

53:10

were very unhappy with

53:12

their conditions under English

53:14

rule, and they did

53:16

see it as English

53:19

rule. They were forced

53:21

to ties to the

53:23

Church of Ireland. The

53:25

Church of Ireland is

53:27

now pretty much defunct,

53:30

but when I was

53:32

staying in Ireland in

53:34

Sandy Mount, South Dublin,

53:36

there was this vast

53:38

edifice, this vast church,

53:40

which never had anybody

53:43

in it. And I

53:45

asked around what it

53:47

was, and it turned

53:49

out to be a

53:51

church of Ireland church

53:54

that had been built

53:56

for some incredibly wealthy,

53:58

landlord and because his

54:00

wife wanted a church

54:02

of her own which

54:04

was a quaint little

54:07

quaint little ambition because

54:09

this thing was like

54:11

gigantic, like a Mormon

54:13

tabernacle. But this is

54:15

like basically an Anglican

54:18

church, but for the

54:20

Protestant landlords in Ireland.

54:22

Yeah, but they weren't

54:24

Anglican. They were Presbyterian.

54:26

Precipitarian, okay. And Presbyterians

54:29

can be very fierce.

54:31

Yes, they still are.

54:33

Yeah, sometimes in ways

54:35

that aren't so smart

54:37

like they are now,

54:39

but they were. very

54:42

smart and very fierce

54:44

in that time. They

54:46

saw especially what was

54:48

going on in America,

54:50

because that was largely

54:53

a Protestant dissenter-led revolt

54:55

against Britain. And they

54:57

thought, okay, we can

54:59

make common cause with

55:01

the Irish. In fact,

55:03

their... leader, wolf tone,

55:06

who's still revered in

55:08

Ireland. Some of you

55:10

may know the band,

55:12

the wolf tones, which

55:14

was kind of a

55:17

heavy pun of the

55:19

rock and roll days,

55:21

like, you know, the

55:23

what tones, the, ah,

55:25

the wolf tones, that's,

55:28

you know, it was

55:30

funny in its way.

55:32

And, uh, they, so

55:34

they coalesced into... a

55:36

conspiratorial order. Some of

55:38

them were resistant to

55:41

making common cause with

55:43

papers, and Wolfton said,

55:45

you're a bunch of

55:47

idiots, we don't need

55:49

you. We'll just go

55:52

on without you. And

55:54

they became a sort

55:56

of ecumenical effort against

55:58

the English crown. to

56:00

France and began negotiations

56:02

with the French Revolutionary

56:05

authorities and many of

56:07

his agents and again

56:09

I'm supporting McDougal's thesis

56:11

in a limited way

56:13

here. Many of his

56:16

agents visited towns like

56:18

Portsmouth, which were very

56:20

near the spithead anchorage

56:22

that was the source

56:24

of one of the

56:27

major mutinies. So it

56:29

may be that the

56:31

combination of... conspiratorial skills

56:33

and the organizing tradition,

56:35

plus the intellectual contribution

56:37

of the Ulster Protestant

56:40

elite like Wolfton. He

56:42

spoke French. He could

56:44

fit easily into Parisian

56:46

society. It may have

56:48

had a role in

56:51

this. They definitely had

56:53

a role in what

56:55

happened. The other thing

56:57

to keep in mind

56:59

is there are two

57:02

big Royal Navy bases

57:04

that are going to

57:06

become the focus of

57:08

this vast mutiny. One

57:10

of them is the

57:12

spithead near Portsmouth. The

57:15

other one, a very

57:17

strange one. is the

57:19

nore, which I had

57:21

not really known much

57:23

about before I looked

57:26

into this. The nore

57:28

is apparently just an

57:30

anchorage in shallow water

57:32

off the mouth of

57:34

the Thames. If anybody

57:36

knows anything about it,

57:39

even know. But they

57:41

anchored many ships. close

57:43

to each other in

57:45

the nor because you

57:47

know remember this the

57:50

whole expanse of the

57:52

North Sea was one

57:54

and pretty recently too

57:56

in the last big

57:58

ice age. So the

58:01

water is very shallow

58:03

there, you can anchor

58:05

there pretty safely. So

58:07

the more radical part

58:09

of the mutiny to

58:11

come was in the

58:14

ships of the Nor.

58:16

And that was where

58:18

you get some really

58:20

remarkable statements of revolutionary

58:22

intent. But we'll talk

58:25

about that in the

58:27

next episode. Okay, and

58:29

you know to your

58:31

point about the role

58:33

that Wolf tone and

58:35

his sort of conspiratorial

58:38

Kind of revolutionary organizers

58:40

whatever you would call

58:42

them the Irish United

58:44

Irishmen that they played

58:46

in this I mean

58:49

it Like you first

58:51

of all have to

58:53

have the conditions to make

58:55

their ability to persuade possible. You have

58:58

to have these horrible conditions that all

59:00

the that you've already described that the

59:02

sailors are going through that the Irish

59:04

are going through who make up a

59:07

lot of sailors That they are already

59:09

and their attraction to their obvious attraction

59:11

to what was out there in the

59:13

air from the French Revolution the American

59:16

Revolution so that when wolf tones agents

59:18

come through it would be a lot

59:20

easier their message would you know resonate

59:22

a lot more easily with the people

59:25

who are going to mutiny right so

59:27

it doesn't even have to be either

59:29

or thing so yeah that's true yeah

59:31

and yeah there there was definitely a

59:34

component of that at the very least

59:36

there was yeah in fact I know

59:38

it's it's a historical and it's it's

59:40

kind of a dumb comparison but I

59:43

can't help thinking of Hunter Thompson trying

59:45

to persuade the Hells Angels to go

59:47

along with the anti-war demonstrators. That's really

59:49

unfair in multiple ways, but I can't

59:52

help being reminded of it. Yeah, well

59:54

that was funny. that was

59:56

funny. right. I think at this

59:59

point right. I think

1:00:01

at this point So

1:00:03

yeah, next So yeah,

1:00:05

next episode will be

1:00:08

the the mutinies themselves.

1:00:10

Thank you, John. Thank

1:00:13

has been great. And

1:00:15

been great. Thank you,

1:00:17

everyone. Brendan. Thank All right.

1:00:19

Bye. Bye. And thanks everybody.

1:00:21

All right. Bye.