0:00

Hello! And welcome to ways to change

0:03

the world. I'm Christian Gramercy on this

0:05

is the podcast and which we talk

0:07

to extraordinary people about the ideas in

0:09

their lives and the events that have

0:12

helped shape them with me. This week,

0:14

the author, Armistead Maupin, whose Tales of

0:16

the City have chronicled the lives of

0:18

people in San Francisco since the Nineteen

0:21

seventies, was star Citizen newspaper column that

0:23

delighted in and dead to include gay,

0:25

lesbian, trans and Couillard became novels and

0:27

Tv series. And he's back with a

0:30

new one this time session England where

0:32

he now lives with the typically mischievous

0:34

title Mona of the Manor. Perhaps not

0:36

an activist in the sense many of

0:39

the guests on this podcast are almost

0:41

dead. More Pin is a pioneer writing

0:43

about Aids and Hiv from mass audience

0:45

when few others were poking fun at

0:47

morality and social norms in a way

0:50

that has touched millions over many years.

0:52

Thank you very much coming in my

0:54

pleasure. So

0:56

you brought San Francisco to the

0:58

south of England. Yes,

1:00

Well avid polluted the south of

1:02

England A in earlier books in

1:05

a book I wrote forty years

1:07

ago. So it was

1:09

natural to come back. At is that

1:11

because you're living here now. cautiously.

1:13

Home I think I would have written this particular.

1:15

Episode Anyway, because I had neglected

1:17

this character mona in a lot

1:19

of people complained about it. That.

1:22

They never got to see her. It.

1:24

Is crucial time of her life so. I.

1:27

Was happy to write about our again because

1:29

I'm over so much and the basic idea

1:31

is that Mona has moved here. And

1:34

they have some American houseguests. Yes,

1:37

That's the basic of this novel. If.

1:39

You see it through the eyes of the Americans

1:41

who arrive who think they're getting a quaint. Old

1:45

English manor house which they are

1:47

but but Mona's in it and

1:49

she lives there with her. Her

1:51

aboriginal. A. Foster

1:53

child who's gay and.

1:56

Twenty. Six. And they have a sort

1:58

of what I call. a logical

2:00

family as opposed to a biological

2:03

family. Yeah,

2:05

I mean, just explain what the logical family

2:07

is. It's a family you

2:10

choose. Yeah, it's a chosen family. That

2:13

was my term for it, and it seems to have caught on. So

2:17

many people live this way now, not just gay

2:20

folks, but other people who

2:22

realize that being loyal to a

2:25

biological family, if it's not working out,

2:27

it's a waste of time. And

2:33

yeah, so that's what it means.

2:35

When did you decide being

2:37

loyal to your biological family was a waste of

2:39

time? Well,

2:41

it's been a gradual process.

2:44

I have a brother that I've divorced about five years

2:46

ago because he was too

2:49

devout a follower of Donald Trump.

2:52

We don't talk to each other anymore. And

2:56

that's sad in many ways, but it's a waste

2:59

of time. If you're my age,

3:01

I'm almost 80. And

3:04

I want to have people in my life who love and

3:06

support me and

3:08

know who I am. Allow

3:10

me to be who I am. Because

3:13

you grew up in a conservative.

3:16

To put it mildly, yeah. Racist.

3:18

Racist. Sexist.

3:21

Homophobic family. Yeah, exactly. All those things.

3:23

They all tend to come in a

3:25

package. I

3:27

mean, did you have an understanding that that was

3:29

what it was when you were? No, I didn't.

3:31

I was buying the package. That was just normal.

3:33

Yeah. And it took me

3:36

a while. I had to get to San Francisco

3:38

to really toss that off me. But

3:40

I wasn't questioning anything about my life.

3:43

Fortunately, there were some good people there that

3:47

pointed me in the right direction. But

3:49

for the first part of your life,

3:51

I mean, until I'm well into your

3:54

20s, you played the part. I did.

3:56

That your family had. It felt a

3:58

shame to say it. really because I did

4:01

and a

4:03

lot of my

4:05

attitude back then was

4:09

awful. What were you like? What

4:11

was... I was... Who

4:13

were you in your species? I was an apologist

4:15

for white people, for

4:20

the whole conservative line, especially in the

4:23

South. I embraced it because

4:25

my father embraced it and

4:27

I wanted to be him to love

4:29

me. I think that's the bottom line. I

4:31

asked myself why I did this and

4:34

he wasn't changing. He didn't change till the day he

4:36

died. Jesse Helms,

4:39

the famous homophobe

4:41

of the Senate, came

4:44

to my father's funeral. They were

4:46

friends. Yeah, they were friends. So

4:51

for a while I learned even when

4:53

I was out, I was publicly gay

4:55

and famously gay, we

4:58

avoided the subject because

5:02

I wanted him to still love me.

5:09

He did, I think, love me

5:11

but I didn't like it on his terms. How

5:14

did you go from being the

5:17

scion of the southern conservative family

5:20

to coming out? When I understood

5:22

my own sexuality and

5:25

my own need

5:28

for love in a particular way,

5:30

everything changed.

5:33

Got better, everything changed. And was that something that... I mean,

5:35

you talk about that as if it's something that just happened.

5:37

I mean, no,

5:39

it's been a while now. No,

5:45

I mean discovering your sexuality. It can't come

5:47

as a prime. Well, I

5:50

didn't come out until I was 25. And

5:55

for a long time I just avoided the subject. I

5:57

mean, I just stayed away from it and made

5:59

all the... the noises that a straight boy would

6:01

make. But it's a

6:03

huge leap to go from discovering your

6:05

sexuality, age

6:08

25, 55 years. You're

6:10

writing a book about it for 50 years. Well, even

6:12

to coming out in those days. Because

6:15

that wasn't the norm. That wasn't the normal reality. Well,

6:17

I'm lucky, because I was in a great place where

6:20

there are a lot of civilized people, both gay and

6:22

straight, who thought it was the

6:26

fact that somebody was gay was not a relevant

6:28

issue. And so I was

6:31

able to change really fast. I was in a place

6:34

where I felt protected, where I was

6:36

surrounded by my own brothers and sisters. And

6:39

I could let it go. It

6:41

just, it vanished. Because

6:44

I stopped making myself be something that I

6:46

wasn't. Let's go back to San Francisco in

6:48

the 70s then. I mean, can you conjure

6:50

up an image of what it was you

6:52

were living for

6:55

a young generation

6:57

half, no real concept of why

6:59

San Francisco was so extraordinary

7:01

in America than I was? Yeah, it was only

7:04

one of the few places in the world where

7:06

this was happening. But the streets

7:08

were full of men and women who were openly

7:11

gay, who would hold each other's hands when they

7:13

walked down the street, who would

7:15

kiss in public, who

7:18

were leading their lives very proudly. And

7:22

we were doing it partially because we had the

7:24

support of each other. And

7:26

partially because the straight population

7:29

in San Francisco was very

7:31

civilized. And

7:35

it was an exhilarating time to be young.

7:38

This was right before AIDS happened. I mean, not

7:40

too far before it. But I

7:44

was able to live without that terror for

7:46

a few years and

7:48

feel the joy of being in a place

7:50

where you could be yourself and get

7:53

on with life. How did you

7:55

become a journalist? I, well,

7:58

I did some reporting. And.

8:01

That tales of City kind of grew out

8:03

of that because I was. How

8:05

do I have proposed a serial to them

8:08

that I would write every day as I

8:10

was a commitments? Oh my God. it's get

8:12

the hell out of me. It really scared

8:14

me. But I had

8:16

to do it. And I did it. And. Some of

8:19

those early chapters of Tales was just

8:21

tried out of straight out of the.

8:23

The desperation of having to produce that

8:25

copy a more they the tales of

8:28

the night before. yes often in reality

8:30

often. Ah

8:32

as women who worked with me will testify

8:34

because I would come in and tell them

8:36

some story about some adventure I hadn't and

8:38

it goes try to traded that the boat

8:41

and people very seats with claims have been

8:43

written up by you will be characters in

8:45

your books. Yeah I mean to do the

8:47

people who who you did right up to

8:49

they will know who they are There A

8:52

couple that we're sort of local celebrities. Ah

8:54

a. One of them was a woman that

8:56

was a a socialite. Who.

8:58

Are. Absorbed through parties,

9:01

big parties and and I wrote about

9:03

her. And. She came in and threatened

9:05

to sue be but it was all the

9:07

Tufino. And. Of

9:09

eventually. The time

9:11

came when she wrote a book of our own. And

9:14

on the covered said as Immortalized by

9:16

Armistead Muffin and Tales of the Something,

9:18

she was bragging about It and we're

9:20

friends now sees Ninety Something and. And

9:23

I still know our. I mean, I suppose

9:25

you, I would. You are rising. The.

9:27

A you were jumping journalist that that it

9:29

with this is also sort of entertainment was

9:32

meant to some degree. Yeah, and he really

9:34

didn't We didn't have a sort of a

9:36

profound intense at the time, but it had

9:38

a profound effect. Thank you up at I

9:40

didn't I was trying to entertain people that

9:42

I. I realized by

9:44

taking this new subject matter made

9:46

debut be my life. That

9:50

it did have an effect on other people who

9:52

wanted to live their lives to be for it.

9:56

So it was wonderful. It was

9:58

a great combination of elements. Readers

10:00

are is a writer. I mean it it

10:02

do it was it would appear would have

10:04

been other people who wants to live like

10:06

Uber Also just that the wider audience as

10:08

well. Yes it very quickly became very popular.

10:10

Yeah is that had it heads big straight

10:13

readership? It was. And it was a newspaper.

10:16

And. Yeah. What

10:18

was being that was? I'm he wasn't.

10:20

Well, I've made as addictive as I

10:22

fixed it. So you. You. Had

10:24

to come back to it because there

10:27

was something hanging loose. I still do

10:29

that, and it was it primarily about

10:31

in are good, good rice and good

10:33

entertainment? Or was it also that there's

10:35

something about the subject matter parsons like

10:37

the prurient, gossipy interest. The.

10:40

People wanted to on takes people wants to think

10:42

about. yeah think they do. Think they wanted to

10:45

hear somebody. I'm making

10:47

matter of fact, Ah, a

10:49

way of living. Ah that

10:51

was here to for unknown to them.

10:55

And I think because of by approach

10:57

which was a friendly one. Ah,

11:00

Did. Caught on. How people react

11:02

to the times. The way he talks about sex,

11:05

which is which as you say, isn't as blunt

11:07

matter of fact, Descriptive.

11:09

Css Yeah, it irks.

11:14

They like to. Go

11:16

figure out how what, But how did that compared to

11:19

how people talk about sex at the time? I

11:21

think it was quite different in that I was being matter

11:23

of fact about it. And that's what

11:25

stunt people who abby wasn't a gay

11:27

language that the straight well done. Some.

11:30

Pretty much understood. It makes us I was reading

11:32

about straight people to as well. Ah

11:35

send everybody realized what the similarities

11:37

they were in both worlds. you

11:40

know. I mean I'd I'd read

11:42

the you have to have a quota. Of

11:45

gay straight character had to since they were

11:47

they gave it to me to this paper.

11:50

Said. At no point. Shouldn't.

11:54

Rise above thirty percent of the general

11:56

of the chances. That was kind of

11:58

generous, really, because it. Inflicted what

12:00

San Francisco's of all about. But.

12:03

I'm with a worried. Over. There No

12:05

yeah they were worried and then they stopped. Be worried

12:07

because the. The newspaper were

12:09

selling like crazy. And

12:12

and they didn't want to kill the The

12:14

Golden Goose. Are they of

12:16

were? Where was your newspaper and your

12:18

editor? Where they. Where

12:21

they open an enlightened and now some from sunset

12:23

the over. There

12:26

were from an old San Francisco family out

12:28

and know and like them. several. the. Current

12:31

members. But

12:33

they were nervous about it. Extremely

12:36

nervous. And they

12:38

would pick over everything. I rode everyday to

12:40

see what I was trying to say. Ah

12:43

and sometimes it was just something. His team

12:46

is one woman looking at another woman with

12:48

a in a loving way. They

12:51

were. They were. Nervous about

12:53

it? What? What was the thing that will pull

12:55

the things that would cause most moral panic? The.

12:59

The gay people, the gate folks who were

13:01

doing things. Ah with

13:03

it was my annoying the Math house the

13:05

you know. I'm I wrote about

13:07

that not an explicit way, but I. I

13:10

took you through the bathhouse. Ah,

13:12

and. And

13:14

that made them nervous. Sosa. We

13:17

you annoyed when they'd say oh yes are not

13:19

down yeah I like that and I didn't a

13:21

very often didn't do it at all. I'm

13:24

I tried not to do it. So. Did

13:26

you end up having a sense of

13:28

crusade? About oh yeah, Yeah

13:31

because this was it is height of Anita

13:34

Bryant who was. The. Big homophobe

13:36

in America. Forming

13:38

a Coalition of People to

13:41

Fight Gay people. And.

13:43

So I could address that. Entails

13:46

of the City and I had a

13:48

perfect way to do it because Michael

13:50

taliban my gay picked character. Ah,

13:53

Was. From Florida. And

13:55

his family was joining her

13:58

crusades. So by showing. Readers

14:00

How ridiculous this was. Am.

14:03

I. Could get them on my side instantly.

14:05

course it wasn't that hard and San Francisco

14:07

because. Nobody. There was

14:10

for that. But.

14:12

To. I. Used to than

14:14

any any way I could. An

14:16

and how much of it was you

14:18

that the time. A

14:20

lot. A lot of them

14:23

michael chapters the one involving the gay

14:25

character work or be lifted from life

14:27

but many the other ones who are

14:30

to marianne. Dd who's a

14:32

socialite? Who's. But family

14:34

doesn't. Approve Other. That.

14:37

Was me. So.

14:40

They're all different parts of yeah, All

14:43

different parts to be and that's what I do anyway.

14:45

When I write I try to find something. In

14:48

me that. Can make it

14:50

seem true. Ah

14:52

to outsiders. About

14:55

what about the mix that carrots assuming

14:57

that all the holsters. the

15:00

that you know the corridor if you like

15:02

his of as of different characters it's not

15:04

just been that you're gay characters display is

15:06

gay know i have friends there were play

15:08

off they were looking man that were. That

15:11

were devoted to like strictly the gay

15:13

male characters not. didn't want to do

15:15

that. Why know? Because my life wasn't

15:17

like that. Because. I

15:19

knew straight people and eight we interacted with

15:21

them and we and. Ah,

15:24

So. Yeah. I

15:28

followed my instincts as far as my

15:31

own life was concerned. And

15:34

I tried to. Involve

15:36

everybody. From. The very beginning I realize

15:38

as what I had to do. Make.

15:40

This about the world at large. Enter:

15:43

Stick with it. And. How much

15:45

is? Your. Own life did you

15:47

reveal? I mean that the letter the coming out

15:49

lesson for the letter was very much my own

15:51

letter. That's and

15:54

more tales of Ah and it's.

15:57

At Russell Tovey read it on stage the

15:59

other night and. brought tears to everybody's

16:01

eyes. That was my

16:03

letter to my parents. I mean, I was

16:05

telling them through that letter, kind

16:08

of a cowardly way for me to do it, but that's the way

16:10

I did it. And I wrote

16:12

it in Michael's voice. And

16:15

it's survived

16:18

for 50 years now because people

16:21

still have that to say to their

16:24

families. What, why don't you think it

16:26

was cowardly? Because

16:28

I could have just said, this is

16:30

me writing to you and this

16:33

is my story, but I put

16:36

it into a fictional character. But

16:40

I can still express all

16:42

of, you know, what

16:45

I felt in that letter. Still

16:49

works for that reason. Well,

16:52

that's what I was gonna say. How

16:54

many of those letters are still being written,

16:56

you think? Well, they used

16:58

to tell me, maybe it's still happening that they,

17:01

you know, that they were crossing

17:04

out Michael's name and putting their own in to

17:06

send to their parents. It became

17:08

a template for

17:11

others. Well, that's why I'm asking

17:13

about how much has changed. You know, because

17:17

on the face of it, Britain

17:20

is a different

17:22

place, you know, and it changed massively in the

17:24

90s, I suppose. And the law has changed since.

17:27

And middle class social

17:29

attitudes have changed. And, you

17:33

know, we're in many ways on recognizable country in

17:37

terms of attitudes towards gay

17:39

rights. But

17:42

when people still have to write those

17:44

letters to their parents. Yeah, it saddens me to think,

17:47

on an individual basis, people have to write

17:49

those letters, you know, after, there's

17:51

always some reason that your

17:53

parents aren't understanding it putting

17:57

up a resistance to it. It

18:01

makes me sad when I hear young people write

18:03

poignant letters about how they got thrown out of

18:05

their house. It's

18:08

amazing to think that it still has to be, still

18:11

have work to do. You

18:13

also wrote very early on, decades ago

18:15

about one of your key characters as

18:17

trans. Now

18:21

how do you feel about where

18:23

we are? I mean, isn't that the bit of

18:25

the story that hasn't changed

18:27

and developed? Yeah, it is the bit. And

18:29

it was really distressing to me. I was

18:31

in an interview with a female

18:34

journalist some years back who

18:37

told me that the trans issue was

18:39

a complicated one, I think is the

18:42

way she put it. A

18:44

lot of people differ on that subject. And I

18:47

said, well, who differs on it? I

18:50

don't understand anybody who can't

18:52

grasp the concept that they're human beings and

18:54

they deserve the rights that the rest of

18:57

us have. And I discovered

18:59

that there was a whole group of people here,

19:02

many of whom call themselves feminists who

19:05

are opposed to trans

19:07

rights. And

19:11

I addressed that issue in

19:13

this book in Mona of the Manner,

19:16

even though it's 30 years ago because

19:19

I knew that there could still be somebody who

19:21

thought that way. And

19:23

this was the way to point out that fact.

19:26

So how are you addressing it? What do you want to say?

19:30

In that letter or in the? About

19:33

that question, about trans rights.

19:35

Then way trans people of the...

19:38

LGBT has got a T in

19:40

there for a reason. They started

19:42

our movement. It's

19:45

not the time to desert them and kowtow

19:49

to some primitive way of thinking. Love

19:54

is love. It's been said before many

19:56

times and people have a right

19:58

to live their lives in this free culture

20:00

that we think is free to

20:03

live their lives the way they choose. And

20:06

if that means living a life

20:08

as a trans person because that's what makes

20:10

sense to them, it doesn't

20:12

matter that it doesn't make sense to you. It

20:15

makes sense to them and it's their right to

20:17

live that out. And what about

20:19

the question of what their rights are? You

20:22

know, when they come to be defined in law

20:25

and changing rooms

20:27

and sports categories it

20:29

always comes down to the bathroom.

20:32

Toilets. Toilets. It

20:34

always does. When ever

20:36

anybody wants to attack the

20:39

rights of queers, it comes

20:41

down to toilets. I

20:44

don't know what, I mean, I can't

20:46

spell out what the law is going to be, but leave

20:49

them alone. Just leave us alone. I

20:52

say us because I include

20:55

myself with my trans brothers and sisters. We're

20:57

in this battle together and

21:00

I won't consider myself,

21:04

you know, placidly

21:06

queer until that happens. And

21:10

does it feel like a battle in

21:13

the same way that gay rights were a battle

21:15

in the 70s and 80s? Exactly

21:19

the same way. They're getting killed because of this

21:22

attitude. And

21:24

we were too back then. We still are, as a

21:27

matter of fact. So

21:31

it's must

21:35

fight for the right to live their lives

21:37

the way they want to live their lives.

21:41

It doesn't matter whether you are horrified by

21:43

it or not. You've got to leave

21:46

people alone. You

21:48

also, you know, one of the

21:50

early people to be writing about

21:52

AIDS and HIV in

21:55

fiction. Yeah, I was. I

21:57

think I was the first. And

22:01

actually the way AIDS-HIV is now

22:03

being written about, in retrospect, is

22:05

quite different to

22:07

how it was then. Well, I think people are realizing

22:09

how much of the story was untold. So we get

22:12

these marvelous things like It's a Sin that are

22:15

trying to spell that out, exactly how

22:17

difficult that was to

22:20

have a family that wouldn't allow you

22:22

to be who you are. I

22:25

think that these shows that are dealing with it

22:27

now, trying

22:29

to remedy something, I was trying to do

22:32

that in Mona of the Manor with my

22:34

AIDS contents in there. So to just explain,

22:36

what was difficult about it? Just

22:38

take us back to sort of, if you

22:40

can, sort of what the challenge was at

22:43

the time. Well, the challenge was to not

22:45

have your family divorce you completely once they

22:47

found out you were sick, was

22:50

to not have

22:52

the government acknowledge,

22:54

Ronald Reagan wouldn't say the word AIDS

22:57

for years, even

23:00

though his wife was best friends with

23:02

Rock Hudson, supposedly. I

23:04

never heard him say that, but the,

23:12

everything was wrong. You were

23:14

dying and the

23:16

prognosis was that everybody was going to

23:18

die. If you were HIV positive back

23:21

in those days, it was a death sentence. There

23:25

wasn't the protocols that

23:27

came along. And

23:30

you were dying and a terrible,

23:33

painful death alone

23:36

many times because the

23:39

family had left you. That

23:41

was a good time to be a San Franciscan

23:43

because there were support then. There were women, lesbians

23:46

who came forth to help

23:49

their gay brothers. That's

23:52

reflected in, it's a sin. I

23:57

love that, I love that show very much because

24:00

You know, Russell C. Davis said. Were

24:03

expelled it out here. Really

24:05

spelled it out. Did

24:08

you feel find a time when you hidden

24:10

messages. Oh yeah, I mean, I

24:13

was worried about my family. But.

24:16

I remember thinking that I was gonna

24:18

get it any second now because I

24:20

would have sievers and things that didn't

24:22

seem right. You. Can

24:24

talk yourself into anything. I

24:30

thought I was in pretty good shape compared

24:32

to most but com. Ah,

24:35

I was depressed to see that that the

24:37

think we'd made so much progress on with

24:40

was gonna be. Dissembled.

24:42

By I'm. A

24:44

disease. And.

24:46

That it was gonna that been the wrong people

24:48

were going to make the argument that this is

24:51

why they don't. Deserve. To live for,

24:53

You know? And. They did. I

24:56

would you. You mentioned Rock Hudson and you're You're here.

24:58

You're always it is. Written

25:00

up for all sorts of as the guy who

25:02

ousted Rock Hudson when he was. When

25:04

he announced that he was was ill.

25:07

But actually, isn't isn't the more important

25:09

bit of the story there. That.

25:13

Rock Hudson was gay

25:15

and. That's what I

25:17

want to to share. Yeah, That's

25:19

what I wanted. said it didn't I didn't out

25:21

him in the sense of anything other than I

25:23

said he's. Everybody knows he's

25:25

gay. Hollywood know she's gay.

25:28

Most. Of his friends though, he was gay

25:30

and I will not. He put into a position

25:32

where we have to be ashamed of that. And

25:35

thank heavens he realized if the end.

25:38

He told his biographer to come speak to

25:40

me first. Because.

25:42

I knew what was I was. Just

25:45

the right place at the right time. In terms

25:47

of my. Progress. As a gay man.

25:50

To be able to help him out. And

25:53

I did the best I could. Does not,

25:55

I'm in. what will How close were you? We

25:57

either We use. Would. You describe

25:59

yourself. friend. We

26:03

were buddies in

26:10

the sense of, well how to not

26:12

be coy about that. We

26:14

rolled into hay a few times. He

26:20

was the sweetest man in the world and

26:24

drank too much. Everything

26:26

was plaguing because

26:29

of his years in the

26:31

closet. Having to do that

26:33

in front of Hollywood must have

26:37

been awful. I know

26:39

it was awful because he told me

26:42

about it. That's what I was going

26:44

to say. Did he talk to you

26:46

about that? Yeah. If they

26:48

went out together, he and his best friends, they

26:51

always went in a group of three because that

26:53

didn't look like two couples. It

26:57

would just be interpreted as businessmen

26:59

because they had briefcases and

27:02

just preposterous charade

27:04

that they had to put on. Those

27:09

days are gone largely. There's

27:12

some big time movie stars that are still

27:14

keeping up the charade, but for

27:16

the most part, they're young actors now

27:18

that are proud of

27:20

themselves and letting the world know who

27:23

they are. Why do you think people are still living in

27:25

secret? It's usually about

27:27

money because

27:29

they think they

27:31

won't be cast as James Bond. I'm

27:36

referring to

27:38

somebody specifically.

27:44

Agents, managers, people who say

27:47

you can't be seen with that person. If

27:50

he's your boyfriend, don't be seen with him. That

27:52

still goes on. The

27:57

Pressure comes from the industry itself. And

28:01

most actors are not strong enough

28:03

to withstand that. I understand what it

28:05

is quite is quite something. very

28:07

flattering. I presume, For. Rock

28:09

Hudson's with told his biographer it's coming towards you

28:11

for so very much so. He

28:14

knew I would tell the truth in that I

28:16

wouldn't do it in in hostile way. I

28:19

was very moved when I heard that because I wasn't sure

28:21

how I felt. I had had

28:23

dreams about him where he was for giving me.

28:26

For. It and and. I

28:30

didn't. Have

28:32

to listen to those dreams. I had to listen

28:35

to his biographer. On

28:37

each out, it was quite surprising when

28:39

you moved here from from south from

28:41

San Francisco and San Francisco's Clap. I'm.

28:44

I'm. Is. Quite miss know

28:47

it's not really. You

28:50

got a big green space there. We were just

28:52

a block off the common and. I'm.

28:57

Expos. It's big in some ways, but. I've

28:59

been coming to London. For

29:02

since I was nineteen to visit

29:04

cousins. And loved it.

29:06

Was always been captivated by it. And

29:10

still am. Just even though things are

29:12

worse traffic in the it's harder to

29:15

live here. But.

29:18

It's. Still a great adventure and my husband wanted to

29:20

do it. And. Us. So

29:22

we. Supported years each other in that

29:25

effort. A new a new on our British as

29:27

well. I now British. Prefer

29:29

how the journey isn't of North Carolina.

29:32

Via. San Francisco but I

29:34

have a did it via

29:36

my grandmother. Who was

29:38

the suffragist? That's how old

29:40

I am. My grandmother was. Just. And.

29:47

I got a and under her right because

29:49

she was denied the right. She was married

29:51

to my grandfather. I. Didn't realize that

29:53

until the eighties. Ah,

29:56

and. so when she moved to

29:58

america her children couldn't didn't have She

30:00

couldn't pass on any rights for them. And

30:03

so the current situation,

30:05

as I understand it, was worked out

30:09

so that I could come

30:11

in as her grandson. And

30:13

I love that. She was a great

30:15

woman. I loved her very much, probably more than anybody

30:17

in my family. And

30:20

she fought for women's rights when she

30:22

was a young woman. And

30:25

so what if they weren't married? So

30:30

how does being British

30:32

now affect your sense

30:34

of self or your identity, if at all?

30:36

Well, I wanted to be British when I

30:39

was a little boy. I

30:41

wanted to emphasize that side of my family,

30:43

as opposed to the Confederate side. Pretty

30:46

good instinct on my part, I think. And

30:51

so it felt kind of like full circle,

30:53

like to come home in a way. It

31:00

almost felt like something I would have to do eventually.

31:05

Now, this is the 10th book, isn't it? Yes.

31:07

And that's it, is it? That's it. Now that

31:09

this has come back to Britain, I suppose the

31:11

whole series has come home, and it's done. So

31:15

what's next? How

31:17

do you continue to write about yourself and

31:19

the people around you? Oh, you'd be surprised.

31:21

Yeah. I'm

31:24

working with my husband, who's researching

31:26

it, on a story

31:28

about an

31:31

American writer who wrote

31:33

it roughly the same time I did 100 years before I

31:36

was writing in the Chronicle. He was writing

31:38

in the Chronicle. And he was,

31:41

for the time, openly queer and

31:45

traveled to Hawaii to

31:48

look for love. And

31:51

it's a fascinating story. I

31:54

love the idea of writing about 19th century queer

31:57

life, because God knows

31:59

I've covered the other. And I don't want to pretend

32:01

that I know anything about being young today.

32:05

So I might as well be old tomorrow.

32:09

And if you could change the world, how

32:11

would you change it? People

32:14

would be ruled by their hearts, by

32:17

love. I've

32:20

learned to not trust that instinct, but I

32:22

still believe in it. That

32:27

would solve so many issues, so

32:29

many issues, if people just

32:31

learn to

32:34

love and not judge

32:36

others because of who they love. It's

32:38

not just gay, but in

32:41

a broader sense, let

32:44

love rule the day. I

32:47

was hard to believe that could happen when this

32:50

war is so much at hand

32:52

right now. But

32:54

it's what we have to do. I'm

32:56

Mr Morfin, thank you very much indeed. Thank you. I appreciate it.

32:58

Thanks for joining us on Where to Change the World. I

33:01

hope you enjoyed listening to that. If you did, then give

33:03

us a rating or a review and other people will find

33:05

the protocols. Our producer is Silvia

33:08

Maresca. Until next time, bye-bye.