0:01

Hello and welcome to Ways to Change

0:03

the World. I'm Christian Guru Murphy and

0:05

this is the podcast in which we

0:07

talk to extraordinary people about the big

0:10

ideas in their lives and the events

0:12

that have helped shape them. My guest

0:14

this week is the entrepreneur, investor, star

0:16

of Dragons Den, Sarah Davis. Asara was

0:18

the founder of a crafting business which

0:21

has become incredibly successful and she now

0:23

invests in other people's businesses through Dragons

0:25

Den, but she has just announced that

0:27

she's leaving the BBC show for the

0:29

time being and it's also announced this,

0:32

she's going to become the presenter

0:34

of a new ITV quiz show.

0:36

So Sarah Davis, how would you

0:38

change the world? So you'll not

0:40

be surprised to hear that that

0:42

I personally think the cornerstone of any

0:45

successful economy is small business. And so

0:47

for me to want to change the

0:49

world for the better, I think the

0:52

more we can do to make those

0:54

small businesses successful, that in turn will

0:56

have a knock on impact of the

0:58

economy being more successful, that will lead

1:01

to everybody being more prosperous, will have

1:03

a better world all around. You've got

1:05

a unique... sort of perspective really on small

1:08

business because of Dragon's Den and everything that

1:10

flows from that I imagine and that you've

1:12

got you've got a lot of sort of

1:14

fingers in pies but also you get to

1:16

see and talk to a lot of people.

1:18

How would you say the environment feels right

1:20

now? I mean is it harder to be

1:22

an entrepreneur now than it was when you

1:24

started or is it always the same? No

1:26

so I've been in business for 20 years.

1:28

And I can tell you, in the last

1:30

few years coming out of that post-pandemic world,

1:32

have just been tough. And I know for

1:34

a lot of business people, you know, sometimes

1:37

you just question, well, why am I doing

1:39

it? Life would be so much easier if

1:41

I just went out and got a job.

1:43

And I think the thing with being in

1:45

business is you don't carry the weight of

1:47

your world on your shoulders. You carry the

1:49

weight of every member of your stuff

1:51

on your shoulders. You know, I remember, even

1:53

if I go back to win the pandemic,

1:55

if I went back to win the pandemic,

1:57

in my life were not about.

2:00

do I prepare and how do I

2:02

preserve what I've got in my life?

2:04

It's how do I save those 250

2:06

people's jobs so that they can continue

2:08

to pay their mortgages? and that is

2:10

the way that our entrepreneur carries, the

2:12

weight of their other staff. And so

2:14

I think definitely the last couple of

2:16

years, I felt that weight more than

2:18

ever and felt that responsibility and it's

2:21

felt really, really tough. But it's, you

2:23

know, this is what we're always told.

2:25

It's the tough times when the fittest

2:27

will survive because you've got to dig

2:29

that little bit deeper so that when

2:31

the good times come around again, you'll

2:33

be the ones that are succeeding. So

2:35

for a stuff. Why has that been

2:37

so difficult? So you might find this

2:39

surprising. And what I really struggled with

2:41

after the pandemic, and during the pandemic,

2:43

is people all said to me, oh,

2:46

your business must be booming at the

2:48

moment, because everybody's getting into crafting. Yes.

2:50

And you know, during the pandemic, our

2:52

industry grew monumently. The amount of people

2:54

getting into craft was insane. Well. Yes,

2:56

the craft industry grew. There was more

2:58

interesting crafting. However, we're facing the same

3:00

economic challenges that all businesses are. Our

3:02

container shipping costs went from 4,000 pounds

3:04

of container to 24,000 pounds of container.

3:06

Our customers don't pay. you know you

3:08

can't charge them more for the price

3:11

of products the cost of doing business

3:13

went through the roof in every area

3:15

and that is what we had to

3:17

deal with is a small business with

3:19

all of this price pressure yet we

3:21

are in a luxury spend market so

3:23

I don't feel like we can go

3:25

to our customers and say that pack

3:27

of felt it pens that we sell

3:29

you that was always nine ninety nine

3:31

it's going to be twelve ninety nine

3:34

now they won't tolerate it they won't

3:36

pay for it so we've got all

3:38

of the price pressure keeping our prices

3:40

low whilst you're not making anywhere near

3:42

as much money as you were and

3:44

businesses that were already pretty close on

3:46

the line and making small margins couldn't

3:48

survive because the small margins became negative

3:50

margins and those businesses that were making

3:52

good margins sometimes question is it worth

3:54

it because you put your prices up

3:56

to 1299 for that pack of pens,

3:59

nobody wants to buy them. So it

4:01

doesn't matter how much demand there is

4:03

in the market, it's not necessarily flushing

4:05

through to being able to build a

4:07

profitable business. And I've seen hundreds of

4:09

small businesses in our industry just shut

4:11

up shop. because it's not worth the

4:13

hassle and the costs that they have

4:15

to incur are not enough to sustain

4:17

going forward. So six years I've been

4:19

filming in the den and in that

4:21

time I've watched different businesses come through

4:24

those doors and the massive change in

4:26

the way that people approached business in

4:28

that first year to how they were

4:30

approaching business through post-pandemic times and how

4:32

they're approaching it now has been monumental

4:34

and I've started to get a real

4:36

feel for who's going to succeed. And

4:38

you can see, more than anything, it's

4:40

attitude. Have they got the, are they

4:42

nimble enough? Can they adapt to what's

4:44

going on in the market? Or, and

4:46

I hate it when we get these

4:49

ones coming, and they're just a little

4:51

bit like, always me, I've got this

4:53

great business, it was fantastic, but now

4:55

the economy's difficult, so I'm just kind

4:57

of, you know, holding on in, wait

4:59

until it gets better, and then I'll

5:01

be great again. Those people aren't gonna.

5:03

it. Because you're leaving Dragonstand now but

5:05

as you leave how many of those

5:07

businesses you still invested in and involved

5:09

in. Yes so Craigie over six years

5:11

every year I could pick up potentially

5:14

up to a dozen new businesses. Now

5:16

not every one of those businesses that

5:18

we invest in ends up going through

5:20

and completing the deal some of them

5:22

decided it wasn't all they were cracked

5:24

up to be, they didn't want to

5:26

do this, some of them don't pass

5:28

their due diligence. But a lot of

5:30

those businesses, I have stayed in as

5:32

a slightly longer term investor than maybe

5:34

a lot of people ordinarily would with

5:37

business. Generally any investor coming in might

5:39

take a three to five year outlook.

5:41

I'm still invested in businesses that I

5:43

invested in in my first year because

5:45

more than anything those businesses still want

5:47

me in that business and my motivation

5:49

is maybe different to some other people

5:51

that said that I want to help

5:53

that business on that journey. And if

5:55

I feel like I'm in a position

5:57

to still continue helping, I'd rather do

5:59

that than cash in my chips and

6:02

make a bit of money and move

6:04

on to the next one. I've never

6:06

been that. make a bit of money

6:08

and move on to the next one.

6:10

I get my kicks and my, my

6:12

cups filled up from no one I've

6:14

helped those entrepreneurs and that is worth

6:16

so much more in my life to

6:18

the money that I make on business

6:20

deals. What is your role? I mean

6:22

because that's the day we never see,

6:24

you know, once you've done the deal,

6:27

you've invested, what do you then do

6:29

or is a different for each one?

6:31

the best way I can describe being

6:33

an investor, or certainly how I approach

6:35

it, is it's a little bit like

6:37

being an auntie, right? So I remember

6:39

when my sister had her first baby.

6:41

you know it was great because I

6:43

could turn up I was like oh

6:45

yeah this is how you burp the

6:47

baby yeah oh give me the lovely

6:49

cuddles isn't that lovely all that poo's

6:52

a funny color I think you want

6:54

to look into look into that and

6:56

then at the end of the night

6:58

I would all give her a nice

7:00

I would all give her a nice

7:02

little kiss there you go that's your

7:04

problem now you have the sleepless night

7:06

you have the worry you're the parent

7:08

I'm just the lovely auntie and that's

7:10

what being an investor in a business

7:12

in a business is like for me

7:14

It's up to them whether or not

7:17

they take it and listen to it

7:19

and implement it in their business. I'm

7:21

not there to run their business for

7:23

them. I'm not there to handhold them.

7:25

I'm there to be a mentor, to

7:27

be a coach, to be a role

7:29

model, to support them, to stand with

7:31

them on that journey as they succeed

7:33

in their own business. You know, I

7:35

don't parent, my niece, I support my

7:37

sister to parent her daughter, and I

7:40

think that's the big difference. but is

7:42

sort of, that are intended as sort

7:44

of a weekly class in which people

7:46

have a task and some homework and

7:48

something to think about. Is that essentially

7:50

what, you know, what you're telling your

7:52

businesses as well? So here's the thing.

7:54

I've got a lot of stories, right?

7:56

I am like, that's what I love.

7:58

learn through hearing other people's experiences and

8:00

stories and fables. That's what's always worked

8:02

for me. And I have the privilege

8:05

of being able to travel all over

8:07

the world and getting invited to stand

8:09

on big stages and speak to tens

8:11

of thousands of entrepreneurs and share those

8:13

stories in the hope that it makes

8:15

a difference in those businesses. And I

8:17

know that every time I do that

8:19

I look around the room and you

8:21

can see when one of those stories

8:23

really resonates and somebody makes the connection

8:25

of that's very similar to what's happening

8:27

in my life. and how can I

8:30

take the learning away from what Sarah did

8:32

to benefit my life? So I sat down

8:34

one day and I planned out, here are

8:36

all the stories I wanted to share, and

8:38

I had around 50 of them, and I

8:40

thought, right. One a week. One a week if I

8:42

distill down to one a week now. Turn each one

8:45

into a lesson. What about your own

8:47

story then? I mean, where did your

8:49

entrepreneurialism come from? Because you didn't come

8:51

from a business family or anything like

8:53

that, did you? So interestingly, people often

8:55

say our entrepreneurs born or made. And

8:57

I actually don't know how that works

8:59

in my thing, but both my parents

9:01

were entrepreneurs. I just would never have

9:03

described them as entrepreneurs, because that was

9:05

a big fancy word that a pit

9:07

village in the North East of England

9:10

wouldn't used. My mom and dad ran

9:12

their own shop in our village, right?

9:14

So I grew up in an entrepreneurial

9:16

family. There is no line where our

9:18

family finished and that business started. It

9:20

all just weaved into one. We would

9:22

get a painter and decorate and knock on

9:24

our family door at 10 o'clock at night

9:26

because they needed a tin of paint mixing

9:28

and my mom would put a dressing gown

9:31

on, open the shop up and go and

9:33

mix them in a tin of tin of

9:35

paint. That was our life. And I often

9:37

think, if you're being an entrepreneur, it's not

9:39

a career choice. It's a lifestyle choice. You

9:41

have to be prepared to live that life

9:43

because it's not a case of whether you

9:45

turn off at 5 o'clock or 7 o'clock,

9:47

you don't switch off. There's not a switch

9:49

off for an entrepreneur. It's a responsibility that

9:51

you carry with you all the time. And

9:53

if you're prepared to take that route, the

9:55

rewards can be absolutely enormous, but the risks

9:58

are also big that go with it. So

10:00

there's very, you know, it's not everybody

10:02

who's wired the way that you need

10:04

to be to be an entrepreneur, but

10:06

because I'd seen that lifestyle in my

10:08

parents, I grew up knowing that's what

10:10

I want to do. I want to

10:12

be in control of my own destiny.

10:14

I want to be in charge of

10:16

what I do. I don't want to

10:18

answer to somebody else, I'm going to

10:20

start my own business. And so, you

10:22

know, do you have a string of

10:24

failures that we don't know about behind

10:26

you? Or did the first big idea

10:28

work? Yeah, so for most people, they

10:30

start several businesses before they found the

10:32

one that worked. And for me, Crafta's

10:34

companion was my first business and took

10:36

off and took off massively quite quickly.

10:38

And I think, because I've never experienced

10:40

failure. I didn't know what to do

10:42

in that situation. And actually a couple

10:44

of years ago, I'd sold the majority

10:47

stake in the business by this point

10:49

to investors because I'd moved on to

10:51

the next stage of my career and

10:53

I was investing in other businesses and

10:55

so Crafter's companion was just a small

10:57

part of my life then and an

10:59

investment group took on that business. I

11:01

still stayed a minority shareholder, but they

11:03

then didn't lead the business to success

11:05

and just before Christmas they put the

11:07

business into administration. And I was faced

11:09

with the really difficult decision of Do

11:11

I let that business go into administration

11:13

or do I buy it back and

11:15

I undertake the turnaround? Knowing that I'm

11:17

undertaking a turnaround in the most difficult

11:19

economic climate I've ever seen in my

11:21

lifetime and I think most people would

11:23

have ran for the hills at that

11:25

point but it's the people. the people

11:27

that mattered, the 100 plus staff that

11:29

were still in that business at that

11:31

time, most of them were people I'd

11:33

recruited into that business and then I

11:35

deeply cared about so much and I

11:37

felt like I owed it to them

11:39

to take a roll on the dice

11:41

and to buy this business back and

11:43

to work my little socks off building

11:45

that business back up. So I feel

11:47

like... I've experienced failure now but in

11:49

a different capacity. Someone else's failure in

11:52

your turn. Somebody else, but I'm still

11:54

picking up the pieces from it and

11:56

I'm still taking the learnings and so

11:58

it's been quite the whirlwind couple of

12:00

months I can tell you. But I

12:02

think a lot of people sort of

12:04

who should... to play around with the

12:06

idea of, oh, I've got an idea

12:08

on this and the idea of that.

12:10

They just don't know where to start?

12:12

Yes. And they kind of think, well,

12:14

you must, you've got to have loads

12:16

of money to start a business? Where

12:18

do I get money? So where do

12:20

I get money? So let me do

12:22

that first myth, right? So when I

12:24

started the business, I had five grounds

12:26

with the savings that I'd saved from

12:28

doing my year, my year, my year's

12:30

work placement. and I had five grand.

12:32

So at that point most people either

12:34

give up or they go and re-mortage

12:36

to the house, take out massive loans,

12:38

whatever it is, going to debt for

12:40

that thirty thousand pound. Neither of those

12:42

were an option for me. I wasn't

12:44

going into debt and I wasn't giving

12:46

up on this. So there's always more

12:48

than one way to skin a cat.

12:50

And in my, the way I did

12:52

it was, instead of... you know making

12:54

the product in plastic and making two

12:57

or three pound a unit selling it

12:59

I got the made an MDF in

13:01

me dad's mate's garage making a quid

13:03

profit on each one right and it

13:05

wasn't the glamorous start to the business

13:07

that I envisaged and it wasn't where

13:09

I wanted the business to be but

13:11

it got me started and then once

13:13

you started then once I'd made enough

13:15

profit I sold enough envelopers as they

13:17

were to then reinvest and build a

13:19

plastic one that's how I built my

13:21

business in the early years I didn't

13:23

want debt so I just built the

13:25

business slower and was in control of

13:27

all the growth all the time. So

13:29

you did it without 5,000 pounds? Did

13:31

it with the five friends? No, did

13:33

you borrow a small amount? I didn't

13:35

even, my mom and dad offered to

13:37

lend me money, I didn't want them

13:39

to go into any debt for it,

13:41

we weren't a wealthy family. Just because

13:43

they were entrepreneurs running their own business,

13:45

it was a tiny little business, it

13:47

was the village shop. So I didn't

13:49

want them to have that pressure for

13:51

my business, but I think the difference

13:53

for me is I was only for

13:55

me is I was only 21. I

13:57

was only 21. And I think you

13:59

have a different appetite to risk when

14:02

you don't have a mortgage to pay,

14:04

you don't have dependence. I didn't have

14:06

a job that I had to give

14:08

up to pursue my business. I was

14:10

doing this as a side hustle while

14:12

I was at university and it's that

14:14

side hustle that I turned into what

14:16

could become a full-time job for myself.

14:18

And I think that is... that's why

14:20

I spend a lot of time with

14:22

young people saying, you know, you've got

14:24

an idea. Why can you not try

14:26

it now? Why is now not the

14:28

right time? Why wait do you build

14:30

a career or you've got a mortgage

14:32

to pay everything like that? Then it's

14:34

a huge risk that you're taking. Why

14:36

not try it now? And I always

14:38

say to people, start first as a

14:40

side hustle, and build from there. I

14:42

mean, because we often talk about Britain

14:44

as a sort of as a, you

14:46

know, a nation of shopkeepers, that small

14:48

businesses are the engine that drives the

14:50

country, but I think the small businesses...

14:52

of now and of the future are

14:54

of a different kind in a way.

14:56

You know, it's not just about retail

14:58

or, you know, the traditional kinds of

15:00

businesses that we've seen since the post-war

15:02

world. And people sort of wrestling with,

15:04

you know, big manufacturers, China, the tech

15:07

companies, and kind of wondering where small

15:09

business fits into that. So what do

15:11

you advise? people who want to be

15:13

entrepreneurs in the current climate. It is

15:15

the thing that's driving change is the

15:17

pace, the pace at which the world

15:19

is developing. You know, I'm a business

15:21

owner. I can't keep up with the

15:23

pace of change with the artificial intelligence

15:25

in this world and it's terrifying. But

15:27

I think for a lot of businesses,

15:29

the principles behind running a business are

15:31

the same. Whether it was... three generations

15:33

ago running a shop or a small

15:35

farm or a holding or businesses now

15:37

that are starting or purely internet based.

15:39

I see a lot of people starting

15:41

side hustles on Etsy for example or

15:43

you know building up a business on

15:45

social media. It's just the world is

15:47

just different but the principles behind driving

15:49

and running a business have never and

15:51

will never change just the world in

15:53

which that business operates needs to change.

15:55

So I also say go back to

15:57

the core principles. I mean it's interesting

15:59

that you talked about the difficulties difficulties

16:01

but they've not necessarily been you know,

16:03

governmental. You know, are there... that you

16:05

think could change around you, around the

16:07

environments, that would make life easier for

16:09

entrepreneurs? There's always things that are going

16:12

to make life easier for entrepreneurs and

16:14

a lot of business owners are complaining

16:16

about the government, the policies and the

16:18

taxation. Yes, all of that would massively

16:20

help and make a bigger difference. However,

16:22

the biggest... If I look at what's

16:24

made the biggest difference in my entrepreneurial

16:26

journey, it's not been what the government's

16:28

done or what the taxation policies have

16:30

been, it's been the people I surround

16:32

myself with. I'm a firm believer that

16:34

you are a product you surround yourself

16:36

with. I'm a firm believer that you

16:38

are a product of the people you

16:40

surround yourself with and I'm really lucky

16:42

in that I've never been shy to

16:44

knock on people to mentor me or

16:46

to get myself in business groups and

16:48

to surround myself with other successful. opportunity

16:50

for a 35 year old last to

16:52

sit alongside some of the biggest business

16:54

morgles in the country and learn from

16:56

them as she's wanting to develop her

16:58

skills as an investor. That was the

17:00

biggest learning curve I could go through

17:02

and I soaked up every second of

17:04

it and I always say to people

17:06

now, surround yourself with the right people.

17:08

You know if you're in business or

17:10

you want to be in business, go

17:12

and inject yourself into various opportunities, business

17:14

groups, read books from other people who've

17:17

succeeded at this. go to talks, you

17:19

don't get involved because that will rub

17:21

off and that will make you successful.

17:23

It's all about having the positive mindset

17:25

and learning from these people so that

17:27

you can develop. So on positive mindset.

17:29

Yes. Are you a believer and fake

17:31

it till you make it? Oh yes

17:33

I am. Do you know what I

17:35

used to do when I first started?

17:37

I can remember when I used to

17:39

advertise in the back of some of

17:41

the craft magazines and you could take

17:43

a little advert in the directory at

17:45

the back of a 30 quid or

17:47

you could step up in a quarter

17:49

page or a half page and a

17:51

full page and I always had the

17:53

attitude of. I'd rather advertising one craft

17:55

magazine with one full page ad, and

17:57

look. like a big deal to the

17:59

people who saw me and it was

18:01

always that fake it till you make

18:03

it come across as the bigger business

18:05

until you actually get there you know

18:07

it's people only know what you tell

18:09

them as well you know you it's

18:11

how you introduce yourself I hate people

18:13

who start off with I'm just so-and-so

18:15

you're not just anything you're this be

18:17

proud of it shout about it if

18:19

you don't think it's a big deal

18:22

who else is going to think it's

18:24

a big deal and so have you ever

18:26

suffered from imposta syndrome And I think

18:28

everybody suffers from impostor syndrome a

18:30

little bit, but women especially, we

18:32

are suckers for it. And you

18:34

know, the worst time in my

18:36

life, I think I suffered from

18:38

impostor syndrome, was probably when I

18:40

joined the den. And I sat

18:42

in that chair thinking, oh my

18:44

God, that is actually Debra Meadan,

18:46

the Debra Meadan I'm sitting next

18:48

to. And I'm supposed to sit

18:50

here and pretend that I'm as

18:52

good as she is, because I'm

18:54

as good as she is. And

18:56

the only way I got over this, and

18:59

it was self-reflection, it's not like somebody ever

19:01

pointed this out to me one day, but I

19:03

take great delight and pointed out to others. I

19:05

didn't decide that I got to be a dragon.

19:07

That was not my call. I'm not qualified to

19:09

make that decision. It was made by

19:12

the executive producer who recruited me. It

19:14

was signed off by the commissioner. It

19:16

went up to the head of the

19:18

BBC, signed off by the BBC board.

19:21

They decided who got to be a

19:23

dragon who was good enough. They obviously

19:25

felt to be a dragon who was

19:27

good enough. They obviously felt like they'd

19:30

seen something in me that was right

19:32

to be a dragon. I mean, that

19:34

works if you've been appointed to something

19:36

like that. But a lot of entrepreneurs

19:38

have to get in the room. So

19:41

what's your advice on that? When you're

19:43

in the room and you're still thinking,

19:45

I don't know what I'm doing here.

19:47

If you've made it into that room,

19:49

however you've got into that room, you

19:51

deserve to be in that room. What's

19:53

the point in telling yourself that you

19:55

don't? Where's that going to get you?

19:57

How's that going to help you succeed?

20:00

if somebody else has seen something in you

20:02

to invite you to sit around that board

20:04

table or to give you the opportunity to

20:06

come to that event or whatever that is.

20:08

It's your job to pick it up and

20:10

run with it. If you let the feelings

20:12

of self-doubt creeping, they will monopolize your mindset

20:14

and you will perform at the level that

20:16

you think you're going to perform. If you

20:19

go into there with a positive mindset that

20:21

you can do this, you will succeed at

20:23

this. You know, I, like I said, I

20:25

sat there on the first scene of Dragon's

20:27

Den thinking, all my life, how did I

20:29

get to be here? I'm not good enough

20:31

to be here. By the time I was

20:33

six years in, I was six years in,

20:35

I was sitting at, I was sitting at

20:38

that chain, I was sitting at that chain,

20:40

I was sitting at that chain, I was

20:42

sitting at that chain. BBC, you're bloody lucky

20:44

to have me and that's the difference in

20:46

the mindset. But it's taken six years of

20:48

self-coaching and self-development to change my own mindset

20:50

because nobody else is going to change it

20:52

for me. It's within my gift to change

20:55

it and only me can do something about

20:57

it. How do you think, I mean apart

20:59

from sort of people like you sharing their

21:01

stories, how do you think we as a

21:03

country could... you know, encourage more entrepreneurialism amongst

21:05

young people, more bold, you know, decisions, more

21:07

daring. Yeah, do you know what? I think

21:09

as a, as a country, we just don't

21:11

celebrate success enough as well. I remember, I

21:14

remember doing a lot of business in America

21:16

when I was, I was a lot younger

21:18

when I first, well, I still do now,

21:20

but when I first started out going to

21:22

America a lot, they celebrate success in such

21:24

a big away. We, we, we're so humble,

21:26

like to shout about what about what we

21:28

do. That is a good culture. I don't

21:31

think that is a positive thing. Don't get

21:33

me wrong, I think it's good to be

21:35

humble at times. I don't think it is

21:37

in an entrepreneurial world, and I think the

21:39

more that we can big ourselves up, and

21:41

it's very un-British to do that, but I

21:43

always take the opportunity. And that's why I

21:45

think entrepreneurial groups and network groups are so

21:47

good, because other people might big you up

21:50

where you're not prepared to. So have you

21:52

learn to do you know what? I'm absolutely

21:54

awesome. Because I don't... It's just not, it's

21:56

not me, it's not humble, it's not British.

21:58

I would never do it. But you know

22:00

what, as long as I'm thinking it inside,

22:02

but what I do do is I go

22:04

out of my way to do that in

22:07

others. You know, they always say, you should,

22:09

you know, you should, you know, you should,

22:11

you know, you should, you know, surround yourself

22:13

with people who in a room full of

22:15

opportunity would go out of their way to

22:17

mention your name. Those are the sort of

22:19

people that you want to be friends with.

22:21

So, I mean, if the den has been

22:23

such a big part of your business maturity

22:26

as well, by the sound of it, why

22:28

are you leaving really? I mean, have you

22:30

been seduced by the glamour of TV? Because

22:32

you're going off to do a quiz for

22:34

ITV. Do you know what it is? It

22:36

is, I want to do everything. I love

22:38

every facet of my life. It's like when

22:40

I did strictly, you know, and someone came

22:43

along and said, did you want to do

22:45

strictly? In a blink of a lie, I

22:47

was like, yes. And at the time I'm

22:49

juggling, I've got young kids, I've got a

22:51

multi-million pound business operating on three times zones,

22:53

you know, with 250 staff, I'm trying to

22:55

juggle an investment portfolio, I've still got my

22:57

BBC commitments, I was presenting on Morning Live

22:59

a lot at the moment. and then all

23:02

of a sudden I have to 50 or

23:04

60 hours of dancing in a week and

23:06

travel up and down the country but I

23:08

wanted to do it so badly I just

23:10

said yes and the thing with Dragons Den

23:12

is when I went into it I assumed

23:14

I'd do two years that's what everybody else

23:16

before me seemed to have done a couple

23:19

of years and then they changed it out

23:21

and they just kept asking me to come

23:23

back and I kept saying yes and you

23:25

know my kids are getting a little bit

23:27

older now they're starting to challenge me from

23:29

being away from being away from being away

23:31

from home a taking back Crafters companion this

23:33

year, I'd wound down the involvement that I

23:35

had in the business and all of a

23:38

sudden I've ramped it back up at pace

23:40

and it's unfair on me to put the

23:42

business second to something I'm doing because I

23:44

want to do it. I always called Dragon's

23:46

Den my side hustle or my hobby because

23:48

it's what I did. You know I earned

23:50

my money in my own business. Dragon's Den

23:52

for me was always the side hustle, it

23:55

was the hobby. and This year I just

23:57

looked at it and I always describe Dragonstone

23:59

like an iceberg. The bit that you see

24:01

is the bit at the top of the

24:03

filming and yes it's only 17 days of

24:05

filming. If it was only 17 days of

24:07

filming I would have begged borrowed and steel

24:09

17 days from my life to make that

24:11

because I love it so much but it's

24:14

not. It's then up to a dozen businesses

24:16

you're committing to become a part of their

24:18

family. That's another dozen people who have me

24:20

on speed dial who want to watch at

24:22

me on a what's at me on a

24:24

regular basis. going on in their life and

24:26

I advise and I value. And if I'm

24:28

not in a position where I can give

24:30

them, do a good job of doing that,

24:33

it's not right to do it. So I

24:35

chattered with the BBC and I mean they

24:37

were pretty devastated. You know they love me

24:39

being a dragon as much as I love

24:41

being a dragon. And so what we agreed

24:43

was this year I needed to put my

24:45

focus on Crafter's companion in a business capacity

24:47

I couldn't take on another chunk of businesses.

24:50

but that was not me closing the door,

24:52

that was me just seeing. This moment, yeah.

24:54

I mean you mentioned strictly, I mean you

24:56

and I both done strictly and it is

24:58

sort of life-changing in the moment, but down

25:00

the line people will still say to you,

25:02

you know, was it really life-changing? Has it

25:04

still changed your life? And I have to

25:06

keep reminding myself, I think, about what I

25:09

got from strictly and then I remember and

25:11

then it's good, but... You've talked about how

25:13

you learned about whilst I'm supposed to focus

25:15

and being in the moment and performance as

25:17

a result. Yeah, I think one of the

25:19

biggest things for me is there's two big

25:21

things I learned from strictly and one of

25:23

them was was being present. So probably same

25:26

as you. I had to fit strictly in

25:28

amongst a really busy life when a lot

25:30

of the other contestants could drop everything else

25:32

in their life and just train 14, 16

25:34

hours a day. And I was really jealous

25:36

of those people because I would love to

25:38

have done that and given it my all

25:40

and I just couldn't. I could give Aliash

25:42

six hours a day. It's all I could

25:45

give him. From six I used to, I

25:47

used to get up at 5 o'clock, I

25:49

used to train. from 6

25:51

a .m. till midday every

25:53

day. And I remember

25:55

him saying to me

25:57

one week, he's like,

25:59

I've never, ever known

26:02

anybody with the capacity

26:04

to pick up steps

26:06

as quickly as you

26:08

are. I can understand this.

26:10

They They all say that. Do you

26:12

know what I said to him, I think it

26:14

was, is he's never, ever trained with anybody else before

26:16

nine o 'clock in the morning. He didn't know that

26:18

there were two six o 'clocks in the day. And

26:20

I had to do it at six o 'clock in

26:22

the morning. It's the only time I had time.

26:24

But what would happen is I'd get to eight o

26:26

'clock and at eight o 'clock, my phone would start

26:28

pinging and buzzing and I'd be checking my watch. And

26:30

then all of a sudden, between six and eight,

26:32

there was nothing else going on in my life. He

26:34

had 100 % of my focus. From eight o 'clock

26:36

onwards, he didn't because my mind would be somewhere else.

26:38

I was there in body, but I wasn't there

26:40

in mind. And he said to me a couple of

26:43

weeks in, you're brilliant between six and eight a .m.

26:45

At eight o 'clock, something changes. You're not quite the

26:47

same. And when I realized what it was is I

26:49

had to take off the Apple Watch. I had

26:51

to put my phone to one side and I had

26:53

to commit to him. I'm just being here. I'm

26:55

not being available to the business. I'm not doing. I

26:57

am in here in this room. If I can

26:59

only give you six hours, the least I can do

27:01

is give you all of me for six hours. How

27:03

have you applied that to your life since? I've had

27:05

to. That's the biggest learning I've taken forward. Being present

27:07

in whatever you do, I can't give anything I

27:09

do in my life as much time as I'd like

27:11

to give it. So I've got to make sure

27:13

that in the time I do give it, it's got

27:15

all of me. So at least I know that

27:17

I'm making up for the lack of time. It's quality

27:19

over quantity. And are you still

27:22

in the world where you

27:24

think you might start another business?

27:26

Or is your life set

27:28

now? Do you know, that's why I

27:30

was so desperate to get into investing because

27:32

most entrepreneurs are serial entrepreneurs. They get their

27:34

kicks out of starting businesses and building businesses.

27:36

And then when they get bored, they'll sell

27:39

that business and move on to the next

27:41

one. I don't feel like

27:43

that. I am in

27:45

love with Crafters Companion. I

27:47

love the industry. I love

27:49

the customers. I love the

27:51

feeling of craft. And I

27:53

would never, even though I'd

27:55

kind of majority exited that

27:57

business, I wouldn't have had

28:00

the appetite to start again

28:02

in that industry because if

28:04

I did, I would have

28:06

been... competing against my own business. And all the

28:08

people that I cared about working in that business, I

28:10

would be their competition. So I would never start up

28:12

again in the industry. And then I think, well, what's

28:14

the point in starting again in a different industry? I've

28:16

spent 20 years understanding that industry back to front inside

28:18

out. I challenge you to show me a single person

28:21

in the world who understands more about

28:23

the craft industry than I do.

28:25

You know, you couldn't. I genuinely don't believe

28:27

that. Let them try. Let them try. Let

28:30

them try. Because that's essentially what you did

28:32

and you saw crafting and thought I can

28:34

do that better. Yeah. So what do you

28:36

do to make sure that doesn't, someone doesn't

28:39

come and steal your lunch? Do you know,

28:41

I always say to people, focus on your

28:43

own stuff, not somebody else's. If you spend

28:45

all day every day looking over your shoulder

28:47

at what everybody else is doing, you're not

28:49

keeping your eye on the price on what

28:51

you're doing, I always worked on the basis

28:54

of we're so good at what we do,

28:56

we're just going to get our head down

28:58

and we're going to focus on that and

29:00

we're going to do that really well and

29:02

we're going to do that really well and

29:04

let everybody else come. You know, if you

29:06

do a good job, they will copy you.

29:08

They say if flattery is everything, and I

29:11

know it's an easy thing to say and a

29:13

difficult thing to live. I've lived it enough. Trust

29:15

me, if you focus on your own thing, that's

29:17

where you'll succeed. Sorry, Davis, thank you very much

29:19

indeed. I hope you enjoyed that. If you

29:22

did, then give this podcast a rating,

29:24

and then other people will find it.

29:26

You can watch all of these interviews

29:28

on the channel for News YouTube YouTube

29:30

channel. Our producer is Sylvia Maresca. Our

29:32

producer is Sylvia Moreska, Maresca, Maresca.