0:00

Hello and welcome to Ways to

0:02

Change the World. I'm Kristin Guru

0:04

Murphy and this is the podcast

0:06

in which we talk to extraordinary

0:08

people about the big ideas in

0:10

their lives and the events and

0:12

about it shameful. We're on location

0:14

today at the National Theatre because

0:16

my guest is the new director

0:18

and co-ce CEO of the National

0:20

Theatre, Indu Ruva Singeman. She's just

0:22

announced her first season of productions.

0:24

It's very varied and quite exciting.

0:26

Indu Welcome to the podcast. Thank

0:29

you. How are you going to change

0:31

the world with it? It's an incredible

0:33

opportunity. The stage is an incredible opportunity

0:35

and the national is an incredible

0:37

platform. What I love about theatres,

0:39

that it's a collective experience, it

0:41

brings people together and brings people together

0:43

to hopefully empathise and engage and engage

0:46

in debate as well as being entertained.

0:48

And that's what I think when you

0:50

say how do you change the world.

0:53

is if we can just become more

0:55

empathetic to the other and to different

0:57

voices and different perspectives. You've

0:59

run theatres before, but

1:01

the national is different, isn't

1:04

it? Oh, it's hugely different,

1:06

yeah. Just explain why. Why is

1:08

the national difference? It sits

1:10

on the South Bank, on the

1:13

river, between, I mean physically sits

1:15

between... the Houses of Parliament and

1:17

St Paul's Cathedral, so literally

1:19

sits between church and state.

1:21

So therefore, as a metaphor,

1:23

is important for national discourse. So

1:25

how are you doing it with your

1:28

first program? It's about having as

1:30

varied a program as possible. So

1:32

like what I really love about

1:34

the first two shows I'm doing,

1:36

I'm doing Shakespeare, Hamlet, and Hamlet

1:38

opened this theater in 1963, so

1:40

it's honouring the history. And then

1:42

I'm doing a play in the

1:44

Olivier Theatre, our biggest space,

1:46

and it's the back-eye by

1:48

Euripides, and it's this play about

1:50

chaos and order, and that collision. It's

1:52

been adapted by Nima Tallagani. and it's

1:55

his debut play. So I'm putting on

1:57

a debut play to open the season. Is

1:59

that a risk? is always about taking

2:01

risk because we shouldn't know what

2:03

is going to, if we can

2:05

predict what's going to happen, then

2:07

the most exciting things we may

2:10

miss. I mean he's a very

2:12

well-known actor now. Yes. But as

2:14

a playwright, as you say, this

2:16

is, I mean it's a big

2:18

debut. It's a big debut. It's

2:20

a big debut. So how important

2:22

is it to sort of sprinkle

2:24

that star dust? It's always going

2:26

to be about quality. Paul Muskal

2:28

is going to be in two

2:30

productions, a quality leading actor and

2:33

a brilliant theatre actor. And Leslie

2:35

Manville, you know, is one of

2:37

our great British actors of all

2:39

time. So it's, it's, it's, they

2:41

want to play at the national.

2:43

So it's, it's, it's, it's important

2:45

to be bringing them in as

2:47

well as people making their debuts.

2:49

There are a number of actors

2:51

making their debuts as well. you

2:54

know bringing in as many voices

2:56

as you as you can. I

2:58

mean more broadly in 2025 what's

3:00

this theater for in a world

3:02

in which we're all staring at

3:04

screens? Oh I well theater that

3:06

the live act of storytelling is

3:08

you can't you can't replicate it

3:10

in any other in any other

3:12

form. I think that that shared

3:15

experience that collective experience of being

3:17

with people watching and engaging in

3:19

a live performance. It's an experience

3:21

that people are craving. It's not

3:23

like, you know, in the last

3:25

year, ticket sales are huge, you

3:27

know, that have really jumped, the

3:29

West End is doing really well.

3:31

We're in a really buoyant sort

3:33

of climate. Why do you think

3:36

that is? Because people want the

3:38

live experience. People want it, want

3:40

to have that, you know, yes.

3:42

What is different about the live

3:44

experience? that we perhaps didn't appreciate

3:46

before we were all spending hours

3:48

a day staring at screen. It's

3:50

why do we want to see

3:52

Beyonce in concert? There's something about

3:54

that live that would be... Well

3:57

I love about theatre. It's like

3:59

a secular church. It brings people

4:01

together, it brings us watching the

4:03

actor on stage, who's transforming us,

4:05

who's telling a story, who's acting

4:07

like the priest or the, and

4:09

we, in the most amazing experience,

4:11

we are transformed, we are told

4:13

a story, something in his change,

4:15

we've understood something, we've gone on

4:18

a collective experience that is amplified

4:20

because it's shared. When did you

4:22

realize that that's what theater is?

4:24

When I was 17 or 16,

4:26

and I saw the normal heart

4:28

by Larry Kramer at Nottingham Playhouse,

4:30

and it was the first time

4:32

I'd ever seen a political piece

4:34

of theatre about now, and it

4:36

was about the AIDS crisis, and

4:39

it was such a passionate, angry

4:41

play, and I remember just... just

4:43

being moved to tears and it

4:45

making me right and making me

4:47

think in a way that I

4:49

hadn't even though we'd all known

4:51

about it and we'd watch the

4:53

news or whatever it it viscerally

4:55

hit me to make me understand

4:57

something that that I was so

5:00

far removed in my little town

5:02

in Mansfield and that that experience

5:04

that visceral experience of making me

5:06

understand what it was like was

5:08

something that I don't think any

5:10

other form could have given me.

5:12

So in this very... noisy, bitter,

5:14

angry world that we're in at

5:16

the moment. How does your slate

5:18

address those things? Because you might

5:21

look at the list and go,

5:23

well, you know, it's quite traditional,

5:25

there's a bit of, you know,

5:27

a Greek mythology, a bit of

5:29

Shakespeare, a bit of celebrity. Are

5:31

you going to be hitting big

5:33

themes? Wow. There's a lot of

5:35

new plays in there, because we

5:37

didn't talk about and musicals. Can

5:39

I just go back and on

5:42

to it? It's not, it's, what

5:44

we've heard is one program. is

5:46

but it's about what's going to

5:48

keep coming. And I think in

5:50

this time of such such turmoil

5:52

and fear in the world it's

5:54

the art we're going to need

5:56

artists more than ever artists are

5:58

going to help us understand what's

6:00

going on and being able to

6:03

give those those stories are going

6:05

to be even more relevant and

6:07

important with to help us understand

6:09

the chaos that we're that we're

6:11

that we're in. How do you

6:13

know because quite often though you'll

6:15

go to the theatre and you'll

6:17

notice you know the bigger theme.

6:19

around power or dictatorship, you know,

6:21

you go and see the score

6:24

with, you know, at the hay

6:26

markets at the moment, you suddenly

6:28

go, oh, this is about Putin,

6:30

it's not really about King Frederick.

6:32

So are you very conscious when

6:34

you're putting stuff on that you

6:36

are actually addressing much bigger themes

6:38

and current themes? Yeah, not all

6:40

the time, you do, you program

6:42

for a variety of reasons, because,

6:45

you know, you have to entertain,

6:47

we also have to find a

6:49

place, all of it has to

6:51

be entertaining, all of it has

6:53

to be entertaining. you know, fundamentally

6:55

and people have to come away.

6:57

They want to go to theater

6:59

to escape something as well as

7:01

to engage in something. The themes,

7:03

you know, we want in theater

7:05

has to reflect the world in

7:08

some way or refract the world

7:10

in some way. And that could

7:12

be because you're telling a historic

7:14

play, but it's bringing in resonance

7:16

as you mentioned, or we're absolutely...

7:18

you know I'm commissioning what I

7:20

call state of the world plays

7:22

that really look at issues that

7:24

are that are pertinent to who

7:26

we are now and also... What

7:29

do you mean by state of

7:31

the world play? Place that look

7:33

at really big issues about identity,

7:35

immigration, things that affect the whole

7:37

world as opposed to just this

7:39

country and it could be around

7:41

technology, it could be around AI,

7:43

all these things that we're all

7:45

talking about that has got much...

7:47

bigger global ramifications. If you look

7:50

across to Poland, Donald Trump is

7:52

having quite a big impact on

7:54

theater. You know, he's taken over

7:56

the Kennedy Center, he's become the

7:58

chairman of it, he scrapped the

8:00

board, he's effectively taking over the

8:02

slate of what they're going to

8:04

be putting on. What do you

8:06

think of that? What I really

8:08

love about here in England and

8:11

in Britain is the arms-length principle

8:13

and I that the government has

8:15

an arms-length relationship to arts and

8:17

culture so that no government, so

8:19

that our funding comes through the

8:21

Arts Council. And so it means

8:23

that we're independent of any political

8:25

party that comes in. I think

8:27

that's really important to keep the

8:29

independence of the artist alive and

8:32

kicking. Does it allow, I mean,

8:34

does that mean that you end

8:36

up with a massive liberal bias

8:38

in theatre? What I think is

8:40

really crucial in theatre is that

8:42

we have as many, we have

8:44

as many polarised voices in there.

8:46

trying to have a conversation. We

8:48

need conversations. We need bigger conversations.

8:50

And I think that's what's important

8:53

about a national theatre is that

8:55

it represents as many of those

8:57

different voices. So it should be

8:59

a great piece of theatre shouldn't

9:01

be telling you what to think.

9:03

It shouldn't be going. It shouldn't

9:05

be championing a particular perspective. It

9:07

should be provocative and provoking questions

9:09

and asking you to make... for

9:11

the answers, not telling you the

9:14

answers. That's why I think it's

9:16

really exciting. But do you think

9:18

there is a liberal bias? I

9:20

mean, surely there is. I know

9:22

if you think about the kinds

9:24

of people who come into theater

9:26

and theater management and the arts

9:28

in general. I think the role

9:30

of the artist is always going

9:32

to stand outside establishment, outside, you

9:35

know, that's not. So there's going

9:37

to be an anti-establishment bias. No,

9:39

there's not. No, there's not. There's

9:41

not. There's not. There's not necessary.

9:43

But the role of the role

9:45

of the role of the role

9:47

of the artist is to be

9:49

to be observant and to comment

9:51

and to... to not, you know,

9:53

to be able to, that's why

9:56

countries, I mean, you know, when

9:58

countries want to control the dialogue

10:00

and the discourse, often it's the

10:02

artists that get who are the

10:04

first to go. Yes, I mean,

10:06

historically artists have always relied on

10:08

the patronage of people in parts.

10:10

Exactly. And we still, so it's

10:12

always, it's a tight rope, it's

10:14

a really interesting tight rope, it's

10:17

not, you can't be. you know

10:19

some of our artists are the

10:21

most establishment you know how many

10:23

ushers and ladies or you know

10:25

have been knitted or you know

10:27

so it's they're absolutely part of

10:29

the establishment but it's that standing

10:31

inside one it's almost like they

10:33

have a brilliant way of standing

10:35

in one foot and one camp

10:38

and outside it. How has Trump

10:40

changed the conversation around what you're

10:42

doing here? You know what's really

10:44

really vital is how do we

10:46

maintain the freedom of expression for

10:48

artists and how do we also,

10:50

you know, how do we make

10:52

sure that artists are protected and

10:54

the risks are allowed to be

10:56

taken and that we are allowed

10:59

to be, the discourse is allowed

11:01

to be critical. That, you know,

11:03

that's what's really important to protect

11:05

and I think seeing what's happening.

11:07

both in America and in other

11:09

parts of the world, it feels

11:11

imperative that we protect the artist's

11:13

voice. Does it feel like a

11:15

frightening time? It feels like a

11:17

really important time to, it feels,

11:20

and it feels like a time

11:22

of where there's incredible responsibility and

11:24

care needs to be taken. It's

11:26

allowing artists and stories to live

11:28

and breathe and also make sure

11:30

people don't self-censor. You know, so

11:32

that we're not, we're, we're being...

11:34

provocative and we're challenging as well

11:36

as bringing everyone in. It's also

11:38

a time when there's a lot

11:40

of polarisation and we want to

11:43

and there's a lot of separation

11:45

and communities are being divided. Every

11:47

identity feels that they're under threat.

11:49

and how do we remove that

11:51

sense of threat and actually find

11:53

ways of bringing us together. So

11:55

I think it's an important issue.

11:57

I mean, his sort of backers,

11:59

both in America and here, would

12:01

say, you know, the trouble is

12:04

the arts is massively liberal, there's

12:06

a massive bias against us, they,

12:08

you know, they talk about diversity,

12:10

but they don't, they don't talk

12:12

about the stuff that we talk

12:14

about, and that's what we want

12:16

to bring to the arts as

12:18

well. Have they got a point?

12:20

Absolutely, I mean like you know

12:22

it's it's you know you have

12:25

to have a wider sort of

12:27

different choices and perspectives as possible.

12:29

I don't totally agree that their

12:31

perspective isn't heard. Well you know

12:33

but you know if their perspective

12:35

on immigration is not really about

12:37

trying to understand the immigrant experience

12:39

but about looking at immigrants as

12:41

a threat to the nation you

12:43

know and all of that is

12:46

that something theatre should also look

12:48

at? I think it needs to

12:50

look at both sides of a

12:52

thing and argument like why do

12:54

we you know you can't be...

12:56

you can't be... Sorry, the threat

12:58

to immigration, the threat of immigration

13:00

or the issue of immigration lies

13:02

in the complexity of the debate.

13:04

You know, it's not one or

13:07

the other and actually... it's getting

13:09

into the complexity. We live in

13:11

a time of like we want

13:13

sound bites and we want immediate

13:15

answers and we don't want to

13:17

go into the nuances of an

13:19

argument. And the threat of a

13:21

really good play or a good

13:23

story about immigration that really makes

13:25

us, that makes everyone want to

13:28

come and see it. has to

13:30

express both sides or it has,

13:32

you know, and that actually, actually

13:34

most good plays I know has

13:36

all those different voices. And what

13:38

I love about really, you know,

13:40

even, even more recently, like in

13:42

Farthen the assassin, people watch that

13:44

play, thinking it was a pro-Gandie

13:46

play or is an anti-Gandie play,

13:49

a good play, makes you, doesn't

13:51

tell you what to think. I

13:53

did what one about Margaret Thatcher

13:55

and, you know. The right wing

13:57

thought it was a brilliant play

13:59

about Margaret Thatcher and the left

14:01

wing thing. it was a brilliant

14:03

play, anti Margaret Thatcher. That's what

14:05

good theatre does. It doesn't, it

14:07

goes into a complexity. It isn't,

14:10

it isn't liberal into one side,

14:12

or, you know, that, you know,

14:14

it should be a multi-layered, faceted

14:16

discussion. And can you bring in

14:18

audiences here from different views, or

14:20

is, you know, are we becoming

14:22

so polarized that, you know, people

14:24

tend to go in tribes? You

14:26

know, can you see the stuff

14:28

you're pushing on really bringing in

14:31

people from all sides? I mean,

14:33

you know, it's a good pitch,

14:35

but it's quite hard to deliver

14:37

in reality, isn't it? I don't

14:39

think it is. I think you

14:41

give a good story, you give

14:43

a good hook or whatever the

14:45

reason, whatever the hooks are. That's

14:47

what's amazing about here is like

14:49

you get you get people from

14:52

around the country around the world

14:54

that want to come into these

14:56

spaces and not from one you

14:58

know what you've got over a

15:00

thousand seats to fill and they

15:02

sell out with the right kind

15:04

of story you know which we've

15:06

got on dear England at the

15:08

moment and people who've never been

15:10

to the theatre football fans from

15:13

around the country are coming and

15:15

you're watching fathers and sons and

15:17

people who love, you know, so

15:19

it's what's what story you're telling

15:21

that brings them in, and that's

15:23

what's great about here, is that

15:25

it does, that, you know, you

15:27

build it, they will come if

15:29

it's the thing that they want

15:31

to come and see, you know.

15:34

And when you look at what's

15:36

happening in America, from a national

15:38

theater perspective, do you have one

15:40

eye on that thinking, well, we're

15:42

not that far away from that,

15:44

you know, from that here, you

15:46

know, you know, we could be

15:48

looking at a Nigel Farage, with

15:50

a very similar approach to these

15:52

sorts of things, you know, and

15:55

a very, you know, and a

15:57

pretty scathing critique of the arts

15:59

and what they regard as bias

16:01

within it. Listen, and like I

16:03

said, so, you know, as I

16:05

will fight passionately, A, for the

16:07

arm's length principle, that that's really

16:09

important, but B, the... Arts isn't

16:11

just about being liberal or not

16:13

liberal, that arts is imperative to

16:16

our society, the culture, you know,

16:18

and it's actually, it's the right

16:20

of every young person to have

16:22

access to arts and cultural subjects

16:24

and actually, and also for a

16:26

society that has equality of opportunity.

16:28

It's not, it isn't about partisan

16:30

politics, it's about expression, it's about

16:32

community, it's about society, it's about

16:34

how we come together. That's what

16:36

I would always fight for. It's

16:39

as a society as a world,

16:41

as a culture, right from the

16:43

birth of dawn, we've always gathered

16:45

to tell stories, to try and

16:47

understand something. And it's trying to

16:49

understand whether it's something about ourselves

16:51

or something about the world we

16:53

live in. And that's... It's really

16:55

important to fight for that and

16:57

it's really important to challenge any

17:00

cuts and reduction of that that's

17:02

going into our education system. If

17:04

I look at the names that

17:06

you've put on your first season,

17:08

it's very much not, you know,

17:10

the old white public school establishment.

17:12

Is that a sort of a,

17:14

I mean, I'm assuming it's deliberate.

17:16

It's not, no, actually, can I

17:18

just take that. everyone is welcome

17:21

and I'm sure that you know

17:23

I don't want to name names

17:25

because it might be in something

17:27

to call the old public school

17:29

establishment but I think some of

17:31

the people that you think of

17:33

that are in that in that

17:35

season but it's about lots of

17:37

talent and also talent that deserves

17:39

to be part of the mainstream.

17:42

The phrase I've coined is the

17:44

modern mainstream that that's what I

17:46

want this. That is like I

17:48

think all different types of stories

17:50

and performers and staff deserve to

17:52

be part of the mainstream because

17:54

our mainstream is a much more

17:56

wider. wider thing than the establishment

17:58

you were talking about. Our mainstream

18:00

are the young people in Lewis

18:03

Sherman or the people in... in

18:05

America or the Chinese students or

18:07

the, you know, our mainstream is

18:09

made up of so many different

18:11

communities that have a right to

18:13

this building, the stories that we

18:15

want to tell. What have you

18:17

learned along the way before you

18:19

got here about that? You know,

18:21

what's the solution? I've learned that

18:24

people want to see a really,

18:26

really good story and you know,

18:28

and it's not, you know, I

18:30

think sometimes we go, oh, we

18:32

need to put... We need to

18:34

put, we need to tell this

18:36

story for this community, we need

18:38

to tell this story for that

18:40

community. Actually, you tell a story

18:42

that's well made and interesting and

18:45

about the human condition. It's for

18:47

everybody and that's what I'm really

18:49

interested in the put is how

18:51

those stories from a different perspective

18:53

becomes part of the conversation. The

18:55

other thing that's really under attack

18:57

at the moment is equity, diversity

18:59

and inclusion. Or DEA. They do

19:01

it the other way around in

19:03

America. How important do you think

19:06

it is for institutions like this

19:08

to still try to address inequality

19:10

and diversity? I think it's the

19:12

foundation of who we are. And

19:14

forget the terminology of, you know,

19:16

because I think that becomes provocative

19:18

in itself and it's being used

19:20

as a, as a, as a,

19:22

as a, a hammer on certain

19:24

things and it's and it's and

19:27

it's being used to make other

19:29

people feel disenfranchised so you know

19:31

I think I think a quality

19:33

of opportunity different voices different audiences

19:35

different perspectives is it is imperative

19:37

for us to feel heard feel

19:39

seen and that includes that's that's

19:41

about everybody and the minute someone

19:43

feels overed or outside or outside

19:45

is is when we're not being

19:48

representative of a national theatre. Just

19:50

to explain what you mean by...

19:52

you think it's being used to

19:54

disenfranchise people. What do you mean

19:56

by that? It's sorry but I

19:58

mean it's it's been it's a

20:00

good point. Yeah it's been coined

20:02

as a negative you know if

20:04

you talk about the phrases when

20:06

is inclusion and diversity and equity

20:09

bad words that it isn't that

20:11

the foundation of every society isn't

20:13

it doesn't like go back to

20:15

you know the founding fathers of

20:17

democracy is about that everyone is

20:19

included in being able to vote

20:21

and decide who governs us so

20:23

the reason I'm the reason when

20:25

we say EDI or it's being

20:27

used where that's being banned I

20:30

sort of like that's what I'm

20:32

saying it's being used as a

20:34

tool or being used to have

20:36

it you know none of those

20:38

words are bad and you know

20:40

and yet some people think it

20:42

excludes them yes exactly so that's

20:44

why because of how it's being

20:46

used and I think that When

20:48

you say about here, the inclusion,

20:51

everyone needs to feel included. You

20:53

had a pretty unusual entry into

20:55

this world, didn't you? I suppose.

20:57

Well, in the, I mean, a

20:59

bit like me, you were expected

21:01

to be a doctor, and then

21:03

suddenly you decided, oh, this is

21:05

fun. Let's do that instead. Yeah.

21:07

A lot, you know, it's quite

21:09

difficult to do that, isn't it.

21:11

Tell me, how did you, how

21:14

did you, how did you, how

21:16

did you, how did you, how

21:18

did you, become a theater director?

21:20

It was so my parents my

21:22

parents came over from Sri Lanka

21:24

immigrants from Sri Lanka and I

21:26

think their hope for family in

21:28

the community was to be was

21:30

to be a doctor or a

21:32

lawyer and as all good Asian

21:35

kids as all good Asian families

21:37

and the really annoying thing was

21:39

I was quite good at sciences

21:41

and I didn't want to be.

21:43

through a really random opportunity that

21:45

was given at school, I got

21:47

access into a theatre. And it

21:49

just, there was something about the

21:51

world that I found really magical

21:53

and kind of extraordinary. got a

21:56

bit obsessed by it. I was

21:58

doing science A-levels, had to want

22:00

to do a drama degree, you

22:02

needed English A-level, had to finish

22:04

those A-levels and get another A-level

22:06

in English in order to go

22:08

to university, sort of beg my

22:10

parents to let me go and

22:12

do a drama degree, and then

22:14

slowly, and then I started my

22:17

degree and felt like I wanted

22:19

to follow in your footsteps and

22:21

become a journalist. And then just

22:23

by, we're about to say me,

22:25

I know, I wasn't following my

22:27

footsteps, I know, but I was

22:29

like, you know, I was, I

22:31

didn't mean it like that, but

22:33

I was like, I was going

22:35

to be like you, I was

22:38

going to, you never know what

22:40

might have happened. But then, but

22:42

then in my second year, I,

22:44

I made myself direct to play,

22:46

and that's when I felt like

22:48

the sort of the science side

22:50

of me and the creative side,

22:52

sort of found. founded place and

22:54

did everything I could to try

22:56

and understand what that might mean

22:59

as a profession. And so how,

23:01

what would you advise people now?

23:03

I really would advise people to

23:06

follow their passion. You know, because

23:08

the job security of like, or

23:10

the stable job market, we don't

23:12

know how that's going to change

23:14

with a, with the global currents,

23:16

with AI, all of those things.

23:19

So what you can do is

23:21

be, do what you really, really

23:23

excites you, what makes you passionate,

23:25

what makes you get out of

23:27

bed in the morning. That's what

23:30

I would really advise young people

23:32

to do. is Vic Patel. Until

23:34

the next time, bye bye.