0:00

You strike me as someone who

0:02

was an early feminist. Yeah.

0:04

You aspire to work at Hooters.

0:06

Yes. Ah. Catherine Ryan is

0:08

a Canadian stand -up comedian and

0:10

TV personality who has won over

0:12

the hearts of the UK

0:14

with her blunt delivery since 2012.

0:16

Hooters was interestingly the place that

0:18

I found the most empowerment. I

0:20

got tired of competing in the

0:23

bikini pageants so I asked to

0:25

host the bikini pageants. Already you could

0:27

see that you were a do -sense

0:29

-for -good. I like that. The greatest

0:31

comedians have come from a place

0:33

of trauma. True or false? I

0:35

think... Mic drop. Audiences are

0:37

still completely unable to receive comedy from

0:39

a woman. If a man is not

0:41

funny, he's not funny. But if I'm

0:43

not funny, women aren't funny. Someone called

0:46

Actual Child Protective Services and I was

0:48

investigated for I don't know what. They

0:50

don't tell you. Was there any moment

0:52

where you believed she would be taken

0:54

from you? A

0:57

question that a lot of women face. I want

0:59

to be a mom but my partner sucks. What

1:01

do you do if your

1:03

biological legacy is impeded by the

1:06

partner that you're with? How

1:08

do you make that decision? This

1:10

is going to be the father

1:12

of my child. In proximity, I guess,

1:14

it was the nearest closest to

1:16

me. I think

1:18

that if we really

1:20

had true biological equality, women...

1:24

Before we get into it, I just

1:26

wanted to mention something interesting that we've noticed

1:28

recently. Around 9 in 10

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1:32

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1:43

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1:45

make sure you comment with your guest

1:47

ideas below and we'll be sure

1:49

to take note and we'll try to

1:51

get your favorite guest on future

1:53

episodes. Please be aware that this episode

1:55

covers topics that some listeners may

1:57

find challenging. If you're affected

1:59

by... anything discussed, we've included links

2:02

the show notes to organizations and

2:04

charities that can provide support. I

2:06

appreciate you being here, so thanks

2:08

for watching and let's get into

2:10

it. I'm curious about your differences

2:12

between, say, the UK and Canada.

2:14

And I think a lot of

2:16

people think Canada, but Canada is

2:18

different from the US. What would

2:21

you say are the primary differences

2:23

that you've observed? I think that

2:25

the sense of humor in the

2:27

UK is what first drew me

2:29

to stay here, to live here,

2:31

to build my career here. I

2:33

think people are so self-deprecating. I

2:35

think people are really, really funny

2:37

from all walks of life. They

2:39

take the mix. And in Canada...

2:41

I found, anyway, and it's difficult

2:44

for me to talk about because

2:46

I've been here for so long,

2:48

I've been here for 17 years.

2:50

They were a lot more PC,

2:52

which I think can be a

2:54

good thing, but to the point,

2:56

you know, people were looking to

2:58

be offended. And in my town,

3:00

they would go out to see

3:02

Ice Hockey, maybe, and nothing else.

3:05

And then they would spend a

3:07

lot of time in the home.

3:09

But in the UK people will

3:11

go out every night of the

3:13

week and they will support live

3:15

theater or spoken word or music

3:17

or comedy it just seems like

3:19

a really rich, more like gritty

3:21

artistic community from my experience. Yes

3:23

and I'm with you I mean

3:26

from my experience going to Canada

3:28

is I felt very very polite

3:30

to the point where it's like

3:32

I don't even know if I

3:34

believe how like are you really

3:36

this polite. I think it's lovely

3:38

to be nice and I think

3:40

in a strange way. Fame, whatever

3:42

version of Fame that I experience

3:44

here, makes me feel like I'm

3:47

back at home because everyone in

3:49

a Canadian small town is famous.

3:51

Everywhere you go, people know all

3:53

about you, they know what school

3:55

you went to, and when I

3:57

came to London, I think it

3:59

was so... lonely, nobody spoke to

4:01

me. They weren't as friendly, they weren't

4:03

as nice, but then when I became

4:05

familiar to them, all of a sudden

4:08

people would stop me, say hello, oh I know

4:10

this about you, I know that, leapfrog

4:12

the small talk, which I despise. I don't

4:14

want to talk about the weather anymore,

4:16

here long enough, it's wet, we got

4:19

it. And straight to like what kind

4:21

of medication they're on, like how there

4:23

has been cheated on them last week,

4:26

that's how people greet me. with

4:28

really intimate stories and it just

4:30

feels like being in a small town.

4:32

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Now you

4:34

said being in a small town again. So

4:36

where in Canada did you grow up? I'm

4:38

from very close to America actually,

4:41

so it's not that different to

4:43

us. Our town was featured in

4:45

bowling for Columbine. I'm from a

4:47

town called Sarnia, which is

4:49

like Narnia. You're not with more

4:51

sandwiches, yeah. And it's on the

4:53

border of Michigan. There you go.

4:55

There you go. Yeah. All right.

4:58

So did you cross like go

5:00

into Detroit or did you? Yeah,

5:02

you would. All the time for

5:04

shopping and like cheaper petrol.

5:07

I don't really know what

5:09

the with the exchange rates

5:11

are like. Well, actually I

5:13

do know the Canadian dollars

5:15

low, low, low, lower than

5:17

ever. It's really bad. But there

5:20

was a time when we were

5:22

doing well. Sarnia is on well.

5:24

as all of Canada's indigenous land,

5:26

but we still have a

5:28

big indigenous population in my

5:30

town and they have reserves

5:32

and they are also able

5:34

to have ownership of casinos. I

5:36

don't really know what the

5:39

contracts were like. That exposure,

5:41

especially young, is interesting

5:43

because you were in a

5:45

very, very then multicultural area

5:47

with regard to the United

5:49

States. Well, do you know what my

5:51

town was pure white? It was like we

5:54

had one black family and we got

5:56

all of the television from Detroit for

5:58

some reasons we had be we had

6:00

a lot of black families on

6:02

television. So I grew up with

6:04

actually very skewed sense of what

6:07

America was because I thought that

6:09

the most famous people, the most

6:11

wonderful families, were these black families.

6:13

I grew up watching The Since

6:15

Disgraced Bill Cosby in the Cosmic

6:17

Show and Martin Lawrence, a show

6:20

called Martin. I would dress my

6:22

sisters up as characters on Martin.

6:24

I would watch deaf jam comedy,

6:26

like as a young girl. We'd

6:28

watch Living Single and Brandy and

6:30

Moisha, all these different shows. And

6:33

we, I thought like Hollywood, was

6:35

black families. Family matters. Family matters.

6:37

Family matters. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my

6:39

God. And, and we for some

6:41

reason got a feed from Detroit.

6:43

So we got a lot of

6:46

that on television. And that was

6:48

very aspirational to me. I grew

6:50

up really loving like Sinbad and

6:52

like Cedric the Entertainer and I

6:54

watched Eddie Murphy. is possibly more

6:56

alternative, like a little bit edgy,

6:59

because those shows were a lot

7:01

of my influences. That's fascinating too.

7:03

Because when we are watching television,

7:05

I think what a lot of

7:07

people don't realize is that you're

7:09

inviting that person or those people

7:12

into your living room. So it's

7:14

a very intimate relationship that you

7:16

have with them. And I think

7:18

for you to have an intimate

7:20

relationship with all of these, you

7:22

know, this black programming is fascinating.

7:25

So what was your perspective or

7:27

opinion of the UK at that

7:29

time? I had none. I didn't

7:31

know. Well, weirdly. I meet like

7:33

family videos with my parents' VHS

7:35

that they gave us just free

7:38

reign. And I would do a

7:40

British accent sometimes. I don't know

7:42

why in these videos. But my

7:44

dad's Irish. He's from Cork. So

7:46

we would go to Ireland a

7:49

lot. And I don't know why

7:51

I would do a British accent

7:53

sometimes, but I didn't know anyone

7:55

English. I knew a lot of

7:57

Irish people. I've always been bad

7:59

with geography, but I... had no

8:02

aspirations to be British to come

8:04

here. Prince William was in a

8:06

lot of the teen magazines. He

8:08

had a rumored crush on Britney

8:10

Spears. So we knew the princes,

8:12

despite what Megan Markle tells you.

8:14

We knew who they were. I knew about

8:17

the Queen, you know, because my Nana was

8:19

Irish. She was visiting us on

8:21

the evening that Princess Diana died

8:24

in 1997, which was a tragedy.

8:26

We knew about that. And we

8:28

knew about the spice girls. Yes.

8:30

And that was it. Do you have

8:32

a favorite spice girl? I do. I like

8:34

Melby. You like Melby? Because I'm

8:37

invited to her wedding. And

8:39

do you know, knowing this, I would have

8:41

been Jerry though. When we do Halloween.

8:43

Yeah. I can see you as Jerry.

8:45

Yeah. I'm a little bit explosive,

8:47

disruptive, kind of ginger.

8:50

I loved the Union Jack dress. I

8:52

just sent home from school in year

8:54

seven for wearing that. Did you really?

8:56

Yeah. So you wanted to be, like,

8:59

what were your aspirations at that

9:01

time? Girl power. Girl, that was

9:03

it. Your aspiration was girl power.

9:05

Yeah. Well, I loved entertaining, but

9:07

I didn't want to be an

9:09

entertainer necessarily, but that was what my

9:12

orbit was, just being exposed to

9:14

theater, comedy, making friends in those

9:16

arenas in those arenas. I really

9:19

loved. performance. My mom

9:21

always sang and like show business

9:23

was something that we always thought

9:25

was cool. I don't know if

9:27

I had aspirations to do it. I

9:29

was academic as a child and I

9:32

think that my plan at that time

9:34

was to dabble in these

9:36

things that were fun but

9:38

weren't respectable career paths and

9:40

I would do something academically

9:42

like I would maybe be a doctor.

9:44

Lawyer, right? I get it. How

9:46

would you describe your household? as

9:49

a young girl. I have very happy childhood

9:51

memories, but if I would pick out

9:53

people and behaviors in instances,

9:55

you might think, well, that was a

9:57

little bit toxic. And I think that's

9:59

like... most families but I'm an

10:01

optimist and I have almost this

10:03

like disorder where I remember

10:05

everything really well like if people

10:07

say how was childbirth I'll

10:09

be like I was fat and

10:11

a lot of I think

10:13

your brain makes you forget how

10:15

painful it was so that

10:17

you'll hopefully do it again and

10:19

that's why biology keeps us

10:21

procreating but I I do have

10:24

a way of remembering everything

10:26

interesting as really happy but I

10:28

had two smaller sisters I

10:30

was the oldest I have first

10:32

daughter energy first granddaughter first

10:34

niece energy yes yes yes and

10:36

we were very close and

10:38

my mother was really cool really

10:40

involved with us really beautiful

10:42

really magnanimous I had family coming

10:44

over all the time my

10:46

dad I have a really good

10:48

relationship with now at the

10:50

time I think he was a

10:52

bit more Irish like he

10:54

was working a lot and golfing

10:56

a lot but he was

10:58

cool he was funny there was

11:00

no like abuse in my

11:02

childhood or my parents didn't fight

11:04

a lot or anything it

11:06

was you would consider it loving

11:08

loving was it was it

11:10

was loving I felt I had

11:12

too much confidence of anything

11:14

yeah I felt cool I felt

11:16

adored I felt smart yeah

11:18

I mean I love I love

11:20

I love that yeah because

11:22

this is where our attachment right

11:24

and a attachment is profound

11:26

as adults and it sounds like

11:28

you had a very secure

11:30

attachment opposed to or maybe that

11:32

I yeah what decisions later

11:34

on would not indicate that okay

11:36

but I felt securely attached

11:38

I had as a young girl

11:40

a bit of like creative

11:42

angst always I think I was

11:44

a little bit dramatic I

11:46

would write letters to my family

11:48

about how he didn't love

11:50

me and I was you know

11:52

I I had a lot

11:54

more angst than I've ever seen

11:56

in my own daughter for

11:58

example I would I don't know

12:00

even what it was about. I think I didn't

12:02

feel pretty enough at times or

12:04

I didn't think I was loved the

12:07

way that I should be. But again,

12:09

I think that was just me being

12:11

a performer. I think it was nonsense

12:13

because when I think about

12:15

examples of being loved to my

12:17

childhood, yeah, I definitely was. I

12:20

had loads of people who loved me.

12:22

I think that if we had, say, five

12:24

hours to just talk about your childhood,

12:26

we would begin to unpack.

12:28

behaviors and traits that

12:30

at the time felt like, okay,

12:33

this is the way it is.

12:35

But you begin to identify, you

12:37

know, what maybe that wasn't the

12:39

most healthy thing and then

12:41

begin to think, okay, what

12:43

impact did that have on me?

12:45

But overall, when you look

12:48

back, it sounds like it

12:50

feels positive and lovely. And

12:52

any impact, I'm grateful for

12:54

because... Why unpack it? I

12:57

have a really wonderful

12:59

life now. Yes. So love

13:01

it. Yeah. Now on this though,

13:03

I think you will correct

13:05

me if this is a

13:08

myth or this is a

13:10

fact. The greatest comedians have

13:13

come from a place of

13:15

trauma and that trauma

13:17

has helped to create

13:19

their greatness. What

13:22

do you think true or

13:24

false? I think looking at Richard

13:26

Pryor, you know, a lot of

13:28

the comedians that we revere as

13:30

the most amazing, yeah, they would

13:33

have trauma, especially the boys

13:35

seem to react to trauma

13:37

by like becoming this amazing

13:39

stand-up, but the female comedians, I

13:42

don't know, all of us, all

13:44

the ones in the UK that

13:46

I'm friends with, we had they, well,

13:48

some of us, you know, I know, they

13:50

can now, some of them have lost

13:53

their parents. But I don't

13:55

know if we get into it for

13:57

different reasons. We seem less

13:59

traumatized. to me. Okay, okay. You

14:01

think it's maybe because you're more

14:03

resilient? We are very resilient, yeah,

14:05

but being being born a comedian,

14:07

and I will say born, that's

14:10

traumatic in and of itself because

14:12

growing up, especially in the 80s

14:14

and the 90s, if you were

14:16

a class clown and you're a

14:18

boy, I think it was rewarded,

14:20

but if you were a funny

14:22

girl, it was not rewarded in

14:24

the same way. Good point. You

14:26

became an outcast and you became

14:29

a bit of a misfit and

14:31

a bit strange. You have to

14:33

remember it's the 90s, when all

14:35

those ROMcoms were out, the mean

14:37

girls were the cool girls, you

14:39

know, I wanted to be Jessica

14:41

Alba. None of those girls were

14:43

funny. I wanted to be like

14:45

uncomplicated and sweet and beautiful and

14:48

I wasn't. I was always like

14:50

my teeth were a little crazy.

14:52

I was angular. I would say,

14:54

kind of just... explosive things that

14:56

would split the room. People would

14:58

just look at me perplexed a

15:00

lot growing. I didn't like that

15:02

about myself. Interesting. And I'm lucky

15:04

that I wasn't able to totally

15:06

transform myself into like the cheerleader,

15:09

hooter's waitress that I strived to

15:11

be. They strived to be? Yeah,

15:13

I did for a long time.

15:15

I thought the best thing, and

15:17

I was right, by the way,

15:19

the best thing that you could

15:21

be was pretty, if you wanted

15:23

a nice life. Okay. And that's

15:25

just right, that is rewarded. In

15:28

certainly an entertainment would demean more

15:30

have won the Golden Globe without

15:32

the flu flip. I don't know

15:34

62 up there looking 19. Yeah,

15:36

I mean she looks she looks

15:38

great pretty good alleged facelift the

15:40

alleged alleged. Alleged. Alleged. Yeah, yeah,

15:42

yeah, pretty good. So at let's

15:44

say 12, 13, 14. Hmm. Number

15:47

one for you, you wanted to

15:49

be pretty. Already I wanted to

15:51

be not just pretty at 12

15:53

sexy at 12 sexy at 12.

15:55

Yeah, I was aiming for all

15:57

saints. Oh, okay. I see it

15:59

that That's the goal. Did you

16:01

feel pretty yourself? At 12? No.

16:03

No. But I had plans. Plans. Well,

16:06

I knew that I could pay to alter

16:08

what I looked like. I already want

16:10

to breast in plants at 12.

16:12

12? Wow. But then I was

16:14

cursed with a very glamorous, like

16:17

traditionally beautiful knockout mother.

16:19

All the women in my

16:21

family were actually really pretty.

16:23

And my sisters, when my

16:26

younger sisters started getting breast

16:28

before me. I was out, if I

16:31

had Google, I would have been

16:33

in the California Surgeon's Siege. I

16:35

was just thinking, I knew

16:37

that life was long, hopefully,

16:40

and I knew that there would be

16:42

time for me to emerge from

16:44

my chrysalis and be a

16:46

beautiful butterfly. So this is new

16:49

for me in terms of how, because

16:51

I've heard you talk about

16:53

almost the currency that

16:55

comes with pretty, as an adult.

16:57

But at 12, you had already

17:00

identified this. I think we see

17:02

it a lot in girls and young

17:04

women, even if it's not

17:06

identified and articulated. There are

17:08

loads of messages and they're

17:10

getting less and less now. I

17:12

mean, I'm very comfortable with

17:15

who I am and how I

17:17

look and I know that beauty

17:19

is not my most valuable currency.

17:21

It's a depreciating asset, especially after

17:23

40. And I'm glad that I've

17:26

come to a place that is

17:28

more balanced. but certainly at 12,

17:30

certainly during like the pop princess

17:32

boom, certainly with images

17:34

coming from mainstream media and

17:37

in my own household, like

17:39

my mom looked like a like

17:41

a centerfold. And I was like, oh

17:43

great. Well, why did you have to

17:45

marry my dad and give me these

17:48

big head long face Irish jeans?

17:50

So you were blaming on your

17:52

dad? You're like, look at you. I

17:54

actually. always blamed my mother and

17:57

that's how misogyny works and be like

17:59

you I know say to her even

18:01

at 12 I'd be like couldn't you

18:03

have slept with an Italian because I

18:05

didn't like being fair-skinned either and having

18:08

freckles I would dream that I could

18:10

take sandpaper and like wash my freckles

18:12

off with sand but yeah and it

18:14

didn't stop me in my tracks I

18:17

was still in a good mood most

18:19

of the time I was still fun

18:21

I was still funny I did things

18:24

but it was something that I considered

18:26

a lot but you were aware but

18:28

so around that age as well I

18:30

understand that your parents divorced When I

18:33

was about 1415. How do you believe

18:35

that that divorce impacted how you showed

18:37

up in the world around 15 to

18:40

say 20 as a young woman? I

18:42

think that I was helpfully past an

18:44

age where it would impact me the

18:46

way it might impact I'm sure you

18:49

know the the stats on this. I

18:51

remember when I was leaving my daughter's

18:53

father to whom I was never married.

18:56

I did some research about like... Okay,

18:58

developmentally, what's the worst time to leave

19:00

your relationship? And I think it was

19:02

eight or five. But cognitively, kids don't

19:05

blame themselves, I think if they're under

19:07

two or they just kind of don't

19:09

notice. And then 15, I think it

19:11

was pretty fully formed as a young

19:14

woman. So I remember being relieved. I

19:16

was happy for my parents. I knew

19:18

that they were not a great match

19:21

and that's what often happens. when you

19:23

marry young. I think my mom was

19:25

22 when she married my dad. And

19:27

sometimes that works out. I know you

19:30

married you. It's like hold over a

19:32

second. No, no. But you're right. You're

19:34

right. You're right for many people. It's

19:37

too young. And they were not well

19:39

suited. And they didn't fight that often,

19:41

but I knew my mother confided in

19:43

me a lot. What I benefited from,

19:46

I think in my childhood was 100%

19:48

honesty, like an autistic. degree. I was

19:50

telling my friend Emily about this incident

19:52

where the men in my family had

19:55

been drinking the night before and I

19:57

woke up in the morning. and I

19:59

was only small, I think it was

20:02

three or four, I have some snapshot memories

20:04

of being very young. And I must

20:06

have been that age because there was

20:08

a high chair in the kitchen. My sisters

20:11

are not that much younger than I

20:13

am. And the dishwasher was pushed

20:15

up against the door leading to

20:17

the basement. And my mom was

20:19

very cheerful, very sexy, blonde apron

20:21

in the kitchen just doing like

20:23

making breakfast. And I remember walking

20:25

out saying mummy wise, the dishwasher

20:27

pushed up against the door. And she

20:30

said, oh well, the men were fighting last

20:32

night. They'd had too much a drink and

20:34

I just decided to barricade them in

20:36

the basement. Like, should there be any

20:38

other incident? And I was like, hmm. And

20:41

my friend Emily said to me, that's

20:43

a crazy, weird story. But isn't it

20:45

so lovely that you just came from

20:47

this house of brutal honesty always from

20:49

age three? Yes. My mom would tell

20:51

me something like that. And I wouldn't

20:54

have been able to conceptualize probably all

20:56

of it at the gist. Oh yeah, the

20:58

men are fighting and they're blocked

21:00

downstairs. Good idea, mom. Good idea.

21:03

Yeah. I think what happens with a

21:05

lot of children when their parents divorce

21:07

is it's a complete shock. Oh.

21:09

They have no... Really? Absolutely. We've

21:12

had many guests who have unfortunately,

21:14

because it is a complete shock,

21:16

they blame themselves. And they think,

21:18

oh, I thought you were happy. This entire

21:20

time you're happy. So the fact

21:22

that you're breaking it must be

21:24

because of me. Because of me. and

21:27

they hold that shame until they're

21:29

adults. And so it sounds

21:31

like, because you were happy when

21:33

your parents broke up, that you

21:36

were aware that they were no

21:38

longer wanted to be in

21:40

a relationship. Well, my mom didn't.

21:42

I think my dad was from

21:45

that religious traditional background

21:47

where I think he

21:49

saw it as a real shameful.

21:51

failure and a knock on his

21:53

pride certainly so he was very

21:55

angry about it and then they had

21:57

a really messy divorce after that

21:59

because because he remained angry and

22:02

he's totally stonewalled. He just never

22:04

spoke to my mom again. He

22:06

moved out and never spoke to my

22:08

mom again. Ever. Ever. And that meant

22:11

that I had to become the

22:13

mediator in many ways. I had to

22:15

have control over my sister's passports

22:17

if we ever went to Ireland

22:19

with my dad and I had

22:21

to relay messages back and forth. And

22:24

he would slag my mom off a ton.

22:26

Which I understand now, I forgive people

22:28

for their humanity and I know

22:30

my dad was hurt and I

22:32

understand where he was coming from

22:34

now. And I think if he had the language

22:36

too, he would probably apologize

22:38

for having behaved that way and see

22:41

the toxicity in it maybe now. We

22:43

have a really good relationship now. And

22:45

the other benefit was that I didn't

22:47

have a great relationship with my

22:49

dad before the divorce because I

22:51

was very much team mom. And I

22:53

think that was valid. My mom did a

22:56

lot. worked a lot, suffered a lot, took

22:58

on the mental load of the house,

23:00

cooked and cleaned a lot. I could tell

23:02

that my mom was unhappy and I think

23:04

she deserved to be happy. But when

23:06

my dad was no longer in the home,

23:09

then he had to really harvest a

23:11

relationship with my sisters and with

23:13

me. And he didn't take us

23:15

for granted as like features of

23:18

the house anymore. He had to

23:20

individually take us out and get to know us.

23:22

And he was almost a good dad, but then

23:24

he really became a great dad. And my dad

23:26

is someone who's excellent in a crisis.

23:28

He's the kind of dad to pick

23:30

anybody up from the airport. If anything

23:33

goes wrong for anyone, then I think my

23:35

dad is a very soft place to land.

23:37

And the privilege of growing up, whatever

23:39

struggles I had as a young woman

23:41

or in relationships or anything else, I

23:43

have never discounted the privilege of having

23:45

that safety net that I know a

23:48

lot of other people don't have. Absolutely.

23:50

Absolutely. especially when the parents split,

23:52

because unfortunately what happens to so

23:54

many people is that you then

23:56

become estranged with one of the

23:58

parents, because you've had to... essentially

24:00

decide who you want to decide

24:03

with. Oh, you have to date

24:05

your parents. You have to date

24:07

your parents. Yeah, you have to

24:09

take them out to dinner individually

24:12

and spend time with the people.

24:14

And then I was dating my

24:16

dad all the time, going out

24:18

to dinner with him. And then

24:20

waitresses would come over and assume

24:23

that I was his girlfriend from

24:25

about the age of 1920. And

24:27

I was like, we look shockingly

24:29

alike. It happens. It happens. That's

24:32

a while. So what would your

24:34

dad say in that situation? Oh,

24:36

well I have a joke about

24:38

it. One day he said to

24:41

have, oh, well, Jesus, I'm 68

24:43

years old and that's my daughter

24:45

and I could do a lot

24:47

better than another? And he could.

24:50

And he has since remarried to

24:52

a wonderful woman who is not

24:54

20. She's indigenous background in Kerala.

24:56

She has so much strength and

24:58

she's so well suited to him.

25:01

and they golf together and they

25:03

sail together and they're like she

25:05

looks after him she is younger

25:07

obviously yeah not 20 but can

25:10

I say though I think what

25:12

I love most is your perspective

25:14

mmm because you could have told

25:16

that story entirely different you know

25:19

you could have told it from

25:21

a place of shame and disgust

25:23

and anger but you didn't I'm

25:25

shameless yeah you are you are

25:28

you are you are you are

25:30

you are At that time, so

25:32

15, so you're living with mom.

25:34

Yes. Then, all right, dating dad.

25:37

Yeah. All right. That's the headline.

25:39

The catheterine, we never do. Great.

25:41

Why does she have issues with

25:43

men? It's so weird. It makes

25:45

me, now we understand. Yeah. Now

25:48

we understand. Yeah. How were your

25:50

relationships? Bad. Really bad. Yeah. So,

25:52

just always bad. I have. kind

25:54

of one and a half X's

25:57

in my life who are really

25:59

successful now. and I admire their

26:01

assent and I'm very good friends

26:03

with one of them and I'm

26:05

so pleased and proud of him

26:07

and I see it as a

26:10

reflection of myself. I go, oh

26:12

I finally learned and I dated

26:14

someone who was like not

26:16

criminally insane but before

26:18

that criminally insane. Criminally

26:21

insane. So so bad. I think so

26:23

like I mean I was never murdered

26:25

but I feel like at times

26:27

that was on the table. Yeah.

26:30

Like I dated very, so I

26:32

think, looking back, I don't think

26:34

I was getting enough

26:37

stimulation. And so I sought out these

26:39

very unpredictable,

26:41

explosive, tortured, maybe

26:43

very helpless men who

26:46

needed me to step in and

26:48

be a hero and rescue them

26:50

and then also be vigilant

26:53

around them. And then

26:55

also be vigilant around

26:57

them. figure them out. Like I

26:59

think that I got some type of

27:01

endorphins from managing these like

27:04

very broken men I

27:06

think probably. You think and do

27:08

you feel like you sought them out

27:10

or do you feel like you just

27:12

allowed them into your life? Well I

27:14

mean what they have in common is

27:17

me so I'm probably

27:19

responsible through you know unconsciously

27:21

doing it or otherwise I probably

27:23

sought them out. But then I

27:25

also believe that what you seek

27:27

you shall find. So I already

27:30

had a narrative by the time

27:32

I started dating that men were

27:34

unpredictable and that they could

27:37

be very dangerous and that

27:39

they were to be feared. Interesting.

27:41

And so I think I sought out

27:43

men who were scary. Where did that

27:46

narrative come from? I mean, again,

27:48

my dad was cool. My dad

27:50

wasn't perfect, but he was fine.

27:52

And he didn't even drink that much. My

27:54

dad and I have the same alcohol tolerance,

27:57

where like sometimes he would be a bit drunk,

27:59

but like Mary... and fall right asleep

28:01

and that would be like two

28:03

goodnesses he can't do it. But

28:06

the men in my extended family

28:08

drank like whiskey and a lot

28:10

of it and they would stay

28:12

awake forever and chat and then

28:15

get dark and then a switch

28:17

would flip where they would just

28:19

be not physically assault each other

28:22

but not the women that I

28:24

knew of, certainly not me, but

28:26

they would... verbally be very abusive.

28:28

Like even when I was a

28:31

child, they would like call me

28:33

on the phone, drunk, ask to

28:35

speak to me, and then like

28:37

tell me like expletives that I

28:40

can't repeat on your show. And

28:42

the funny thing about that was,

28:44

I loved them and I saw

28:47

there are many good qualities too.

28:49

These were men who sober were

28:51

really loving and really funny and

28:53

really talented and really successful. and

28:56

really gregarious. Everybody loved them. So

28:58

I had complex relationships with these

29:00

early men in my life who

29:03

were supposed to love and protect

29:05

me. I knew that I had

29:07

to, and all the women in

29:09

my family, exercised vigilance, assessment, empathy,

29:12

empathy, because I knew that they

29:14

would be that way from historical,

29:16

patriarchal abuse, you know, like the

29:19

drinking and that. that language would

29:21

have probably been very hard for

29:23

them to navigate throughout their early

29:25

lives. And I knew the way

29:28

they were was because of their

29:30

own pain. But yeah, I think

29:32

that must have something to do

29:34

with that. Absolutely. And then even

29:37

stepping outside of your family, I

29:39

know that unfortunately your friend Jessica

29:41

is Jessica. I'd love for you

29:44

to share that story because that

29:46

clearly had an impact. on your

29:48

perception and really endorsed this idea

29:50

that men can be incredibly dangerous.

29:53

Right. I was working in this

29:55

really cool... in Sarnia where everybody

29:57

wanted to work. It was like

30:00

the hot spot in the summer.

30:02

And there was an older girl

30:04

there called Jessica, with whom I

30:06

was on the bar a lot

30:09

of the time. She was beautiful.

30:11

She was kind. She was really

30:13

good at bartending. She was really popular.

30:15

And she was dating a guy in

30:18

our town who was very well known.

30:20

He was a Canadian Commonwealth boxer. And

30:22

everybody, this is the other thing. These

30:24

men who did bad things. I always

30:27

saw the good side of them too.

30:29

He wasn't. loveable guy in our town

30:31

who had problems but he was again

30:34

funny really popular really

30:36

good-looking the fact that I knew

30:39

her and he knew me like made

30:41

me feel cool because I was younger

30:43

you know she's a boxer too high

30:45

status yeah high status for sure

30:47

and they had problems in their

30:50

relationship there was abuse in

30:52

their relationship and she would talk a

30:54

lot about it at work so I

30:56

knew what was going on and they

30:59

split up Okay. And that is when

31:01

a woman is statistically most

31:03

vulnerable to, you know, succumbing

31:06

to domestic homicide, unfortunately,

31:08

and he lured her to a

31:10

place to give her back a

31:12

car radio or something, and then he

31:15

murdered her in her car, and

31:17

like, in a really gruesome way,

31:19

like, stabbed her 52 times, and

31:21

let her just bleed to death in

31:23

the car, and then made it

31:25

all about himself, like pretended...

31:28

that he also wanted to end his life

31:30

and went and got help from a neighbor.

31:32

And it was this shocking story in the

31:35

town. I think it hit everyone in a

31:37

small town, even if you weren't her

31:39

best friend. It was just so unexpected

31:41

at first. And I was expecting her

31:43

to come to work that day. And

31:45

it happened in the early hours the

31:47

night before, and she didn't show up for

31:49

work. And that was very rare. And

31:52

I was like, well, where's Jessica? We

31:54

didn't have mobile phones at that time or

31:56

else. on the restaurant phone, and it

31:58

was from my best friend. Because news

32:01

travels fast in a small

32:03

town and she said, Jessica's dead.

32:05

Like the first thing she said

32:07

to me on the phone, I

32:10

went, what do you mean? And

32:12

I thought it was like a

32:14

colloquialism. You know, like so and so,

32:17

it's dead. Like, what did she

32:19

do? And she said, no, Jeremy

32:21

killed her. And then I think

32:23

I just felt faint, pale, must

32:26

have. And I said to my

32:28

manager, I think. people who'd been

32:30

with her the night before, like people started

32:32

crying, like people started coming in, and I

32:34

just thought it was the end of the

32:37

world. I thought this horrible thing has happened.

32:39

How could this happen? And eventually we were

32:41

able to go home, I went home a

32:43

bit early, because I was so upset, and I

32:46

said to my mom, like, you've heard obviously

32:48

what's happened? Oh my gosh, there are going

32:50

to be movies made about this, and it's

32:52

the crazy, and then my mom just kind

32:54

of was like, just kind of was like, like,

32:56

like, like, like, What? And my mom

32:59

said, yeah, sometimes when you leave

33:01

them, they'll kill you. And I was

33:03

like, what? And she was under, you know,

33:05

my mom had sympathy and was

33:07

very sad herself, of course,

33:10

about the situation, but my

33:12

mom was just like, so nonchalant

33:14

in a way that, like, had a cold

33:16

way of acceptance. And I just

33:18

internalized that. For some reason, I

33:21

think, because I was 19. Just

33:23

wrote on the canvas of who I

33:25

am. And you can rationalize it or

33:27

you. understand that, you

33:29

know, statistically that does happen,

33:32

but it's not going to

33:34

happen to, but I think I lived

33:36

the rest of my life just

33:38

knowing like, oh, they will kill you.

33:41

You know, your mother giving you

33:43

those facts at 19 was, I think,

33:45

such a blessing for you. And

33:47

the reason why I say

33:49

that in particular is because

33:52

it wasn't until doing the

33:54

research for you coming in,

33:56

that I started to... thoroughly

33:59

investigate homicide. That's exactly what

34:01

this is. And I didn't

34:03

realize that it is, it

34:05

literally is to this day in

34:07

the UK, it is two to three

34:10

women every week who are killed

34:12

most likely by a partner,

34:14

you know, family member, etc.

34:17

But I did not know this.

34:19

To your point, it then informed

34:21

your perspective of life,

34:23

of men. I really did. And I

34:26

shouldn't have been reading my

34:28

mom's diary, but. I am a detective.

34:30

So she kept a diary when she

34:32

and my dad were splitting and she would

34:35

write in the diary that she was afraid

34:37

of the same thing. Even though that was

34:39

without perhaps just cause, and I think

34:41

that's the gas lighting, like I feel

34:44

physically a little bit, it is like

34:46

a central nervous system reaction, even

34:49

telling that story about Jessica

34:51

that I feel like uneasy

34:53

and in every relationship that I've wanted

34:55

to end, I've been like, oh,

34:57

you can't just in case. And then

34:59

he tells yourself, like, oh, that's

35:01

stupid, Catherine. My mom later

35:04

said to me, and we've always joked,

35:06

I think we find the lightness

35:08

in dark. I would say, well, I

35:10

can't, I can't leave, because what

35:12

if he reacts badly, what if

35:14

he kills himself, what if he

35:17

kills me? And my mom would

35:19

go, oh, relax, Catherine, no one wants

35:21

to kill you. Like, who do you

35:23

think you are? But it's like a

35:25

joke. But I think we say that

35:27

to ourselves. But I think it's

35:29

a very communal fear. It's a

35:32

very tribal fear of like, I feel

35:34

it, not just for myself, but I

35:36

think I feel it for women all

35:39

the time. It vibrates in me

35:41

as this like, you don't know why.

35:43

No one has like. Investing, but

35:45

I'm curious then, so in

35:47

past relationships then, you have

35:50

stayed. Yeah. Sounds like you've

35:52

stayed specifically because you

35:54

feared being killed. Maybe not

35:56

even explicitly being killed, but I

35:59

have certainly stayed... because I feared

36:01

an unknown outcome, an

36:03

aggressive or violent or

36:06

unpredictable negative outcome.

36:08

And this is a thing I

36:10

think there are so many

36:12

allies, wonderful men all over

36:14

the world. I know that I'm

36:16

married to one now, thankfully,

36:19

and I've only heard good

36:21

things about you. But I

36:23

think that it's men seem

36:25

to respond in anger when

36:27

we tell them we're afraid. Well,

36:29

it's because we in a heteronormative

36:33

relationship choose to share our

36:35

life to lay next to

36:37

someone every night who could kill

36:39

us at any point with their

36:41

bare hands. My husband is a

36:44

very gentle man. He is not aggressive

36:47

in any way, though he has

36:49

that in him. He has fought

36:51

intruders, armed intruders in our home.

36:53

He was a footballer, like

36:55

he played sports, he tackles,

36:58

he's been in fights in

37:00

his youth. I have never even

37:02

struck one of my sisters in

37:04

anger, like we don't have that

37:07

same capability, generally speaking,

37:09

for any physical retaliation.

37:11

And my husband is

37:14

strong and he's someone.

37:16

Who could kill me with his bare hands?

37:18

I think just getting your head around

37:20

that like would you have someone in

37:23

your house if your wife wanted to kill

37:25

you? She would have to be like super crafty

37:27

and poison you wag Get it right there for

37:29

the end and like why do you know what

37:31

I mean? And I think we're gas lit

37:33

constantly Told like not all men. Okay,

37:36

and then you try to put a

37:38

documentary on and okay. It's more men

37:40

feeling it's more men. Yeah, it's one of

37:42

these where the stat was so startling to

37:44

me doing the research And I thought, where

37:47

do we begin? Because the

37:49

conversation needs to happen. And

37:51

I think it's in this

37:53

dialogue. I think it's in

37:55

just having these conversations. In

37:57

particular, I think it's men.

38:00

being aware that these were talking

38:02

about your friends, you were family

38:04

members who were out here committing

38:06

these heinous acts. And if that

38:09

dialogue just begins, I think that's

38:11

a good starting place. I think

38:13

it's a culture shift too, and

38:16

I am peaceful and positive about

38:18

the fact that it's changing. We

38:20

have conversations about toxic masculinity now,

38:23

and I think that the man...

38:25

who commit these crimes, they had

38:27

more avenues to explore feelings of

38:30

shame, feelings of rejection. Like if

38:32

they were given opportunities to talk

38:34

more about their feelings, then they

38:37

wouldn't be so explosive. And this

38:39

is another reason why I think

38:41

feminists are trying to dismantle toxic

38:43

masculinity. It's not just for our

38:46

own mobility and our own safety

38:48

and comfort. I think it would

38:50

be good for everyone. Women having

38:53

equal pay allows men maybe not

38:55

to have the pressure of financially

38:57

supporting an entire family. Women being

39:00

able to hold their own passports

39:02

and bank accounts and buy properties

39:04

and contribute in that way puts

39:07

us all in a more level

39:09

playing field so that, you know.

39:11

these like balances don't happen. And

39:13

that's not so what in every

39:16

study that I've read around ecosystems

39:18

that are led by women. Yeah.

39:20

They are so they are they

39:23

are healthier. Everyone's everyone. The men

39:25

in the ecosystem they're healthier. Everyone's

39:27

making more money. You know, it's

39:30

like, you know, to a certain

39:32

extent, like guys, like give it

39:34

up, you know, because those, you

39:37

know, the research is there. And

39:39

the sheer entitlement to think. as

39:41

well, that you have the right

39:43

to take someone else's life because

39:46

you feel angry and hurt. It's

39:48

ridiculous. It's crazy. You strike me

39:50

as someone who was an early

39:53

feminist. Yeah. All right. And this

39:55

is the part that I'm trying

39:57

to reconcile, is that so... You

40:00

talked about you aspire to work

40:02

at hooders. Yes. All right. So here's

40:04

where I want to go with this is

40:06

that you should have, from what is,

40:08

I've gone to hooders, and can

40:11

I say, the best chicken wings on

40:13

the planet. Right. But I've only gone

40:15

in to eat the chicken wings. I

40:17

was like. Sure. But when I say.

40:19

I believe you because I also like

40:21

to eat the chicken wings there and

40:24

I like men. So I'm not there

40:26

for the girls. Just like you probably

40:28

weren't. Even at that time there

40:30

was a debate. Is Hooter's

40:33

objectifying women? Or is

40:35

it empowerment of women? And

40:37

there were strong arguments, should

40:39

I say, on both sides.

40:41

Where do you land on that?

40:43

And what is for anyone who

40:46

doesn't know about the chicken wings

40:48

at Hooter's, what is Hooters?

40:50

In this country, they really

40:52

don't get it. And they would...

40:54

sort of equate Hooters with a

40:56

strip club or like an exotic

40:58

dancing place but it's not. In Canada

41:00

and in America it's very much a

41:03

sports bar where kids eat free on

41:05

weekends and they've got beer and wings

41:07

and sports on TV and it's fun

41:09

and it's meant to be I think

41:12

satirical. We had signs on the wall

41:14

that said that girls are flat or

41:16

re-operated and like it was I think

41:18

that Hooters is a piss take like I

41:20

think it's funny but Certainly it

41:23

objectifies women. It's squarely

41:25

objectifies women. There's an owl

41:27

on the shirt. The owl eyes are, you know, placed

41:29

in an area that emphasizes your breasts.

41:32

The shorts are really short. That

41:34

was more of it than the boobs, that

41:36

was more of it than the boobs, actually,

41:38

because what I worked there, I didn't have

41:41

breast and plants. I had a nice bum,

41:43

and it's more about the bum, but maybe

41:45

that was just culture was moving

41:47

toward the bum. The boat, yeah, culture

41:49

did shift shift shift. Whenever we

41:52

had meetings about just, you know,

41:54

jumpstart meetings, we'd call them, we'd

41:56

talk about what we had out of stock,

41:59

what we need. to do in the restaurant,

42:01

but there would be conversations about staying

42:03

thin and our bodies and looking athletic.

42:05

We'd hula hoop if we had free

42:08

time, like in the restaurant. Are you

42:10

serious? Yeah, we'd caddy golf tournaments. There's

42:12

a bikini pageant at the end of

42:14

every year. You know, it objectifies women,

42:16

yes. But I think it's women

42:18

who can find empowerment in any

42:21

situation, even one that objectifies them.

42:23

Like some women obviously don't

42:25

mind being objectified. At that time

42:27

I wanted to be. objectified

42:29

because again even as a young

42:31

hamfisted feminist I didn't

42:33

know exactly what it meant I

42:36

knew that I wanted to be

42:38

successful and I wanted to make

42:40

choices and have autonomy and I

42:42

wanted to have power I wanted

42:44

to have all the opportunities

42:46

that boys had I knew that but I

42:49

also I still I wanted to be

42:51

liked and to be liked I felt that

42:53

I had to be pretty

42:55

and uncomplicated and hooders was

42:58

Interestingly, I found the place that I

43:00

found kind of the most empowerment

43:02

for myself, but it was through trial

43:04

and error. I would get in trouble

43:06

for the things that I said. I

43:08

got tired of competing in the bikini

43:10

pageant, so I asked to host the

43:12

bikini pageant to be able to wear

43:14

a dress and to have a voice.

43:17

I found like-minded women there outside of

43:19

my small town who valued my uniqueness.

43:21

Yes. Like accidentally I found all

43:23

those things there. perhaps I

43:25

could have found those things working

43:27

in an office. Right, but you

43:30

found it? Yeah. You found it

43:32

at odors. So, so in essence,

43:34

that experience gave you empowerment.

43:37

And I learned that through my

43:39

personality, I made more money

43:41

than the girls who were pretty.

43:43

How so? I just, I was capable

43:45

of taking more tables. I

43:47

would get higher tips because

43:50

my personality became...

43:52

valued. Like I gave good service.

43:54

I was funny. There were guys there

43:56

who would laugh at me sometimes. That

43:58

always felt so good. I realize

44:00

that the feeling of respect, and

44:03

I think laughing at someone, having

44:05

that commonality, that language, I

44:07

feel that's a really respectful

44:10

feeling. Like, oh, I got it,

44:12

it's status again. That felt so

44:15

much better than someone leering at

44:17

me. Who wants to be leared at?

44:19

I gets old real fast. And I

44:21

think men, my dad included, have

44:23

noticed in their marriages. Oh, no.

44:26

I married the pretty one, I

44:28

don't like her. It's what I mean. You

44:30

need to have more. These are facts. These

44:32

are facts. I wish that is what

44:34

we need to be telling, you know,

44:36

11-year-old boys, you know, in particular. Was

44:38

this the stage of your life that

44:40

you thought, okay, comedy is something that

44:42

maybe it's not a career, but it's

44:44

something that I enjoy? Yeah. I noticed

44:46

there was a comedy club, a

44:49

really well-known comedy chain in Canada

44:51

called Ya Yaquaks, that was right

44:53

next to the Hutters where I

44:55

worked in downtown Toronto. And I was

44:57

like, oh, I was actually tired of

44:59

getting in trouble at Hooters, because I would

45:02

sometimes take it over the line

45:04

and get admonished. I don't believe you

45:06

would get in trouble. I did. Yeah,

45:08

probably every day. Every day. For nothing.

45:10

I was in charge of the

45:12

chalkboards, another one of my responsibilities.

45:14

And I loved so many little

45:16

things. And I would think so creatively

45:19

about, like, okay, what can I draw

45:21

on the chalkboard today? And I love

45:23

even just drawing the girls and making

45:26

up sayings. And one of the sayings

45:28

for the lunch specials club sandwiches, and

45:30

that was during a politically sensitive time

45:32

in Canada, where we were talking

45:35

about seal clubbing, and Pamela Anderson had

45:37

done a PETA campaign about how clubbing

45:39

seals was really wrong, but that's sensitive

45:41

in Canada because again, it is

45:44

a practice of Inuit and indigenous populations

45:46

to eat seal meat. I had none

45:48

of this context. So the chalkboard

45:50

was... club sandwiches,

45:53

not seals. And shit

45:55

hit the table. I

45:57

was accused of like race.

45:59

Yeah. And a family had come

46:01

in and they were treating their son

46:04

for cancer at the Toronto Sick Kids

46:06

Children's Hospital and they'd popped out to

46:08

have lunch while their son was going

46:11

through treatment. And they were an indigenous

46:13

family and they saw this sign and

46:15

they saw this sign and they complained

46:18

like to upper upper men. And Hooters

46:20

isn't just like a family business. It

46:22

was a corporate chain. So it went

46:25

straight to the top because it was

46:27

racism and like I was hauled in

46:29

and it was just really bad. And

46:31

I felt so sorry. And again, comedy

46:34

can be quite a blunt instrument. It's

46:36

really dangerous if you don't know what

46:38

you're talking about. I just didn't know.

46:41

So I got fired for that for

46:43

a while, but I won my way

46:45

back. I'm sure you did. I was

46:48

a good waitress, though racist. But you're

46:50

so good that they're like, I'll take

46:52

the racism. And that's corporate America. So

46:55

I felt bad. I felt awful. And

46:57

then another time a reporter came into

46:59

the restaurant. And he was like, oh,

47:02

will you speak to me about the

47:04

smoking ban? Because the smoking ban was

47:06

just coming in in Canada. Before then,

47:09

you could smoke in restaurant. And of

47:11

course, I was very honest. And I

47:13

was like, I don't care if we

47:15

lose business, because smoking is awful. And

47:18

I don't like people smoking in here,

47:20

but of course, corporate dim, why I'm

47:22

saying that? It was on the cover

47:25

of the Toronto Sun. Was it? That's

47:27

big. But now they've got that. Yeah.

47:29

Look at that. But already you could

47:32

see that you were, you know, I'll

47:34

call it the, I'll call it, you

47:36

were a nuisance for good. Yeah. You

47:39

know. I should call the next tour

47:41

a nuisance for good. I like that.

47:43

That is who you want. Yeah, I'm

47:46

a nuisance. You're a nuisance for good.

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connection might lead. How old are

49:34

you at this point? 1920. 1920.

49:36

Probably, yeah, by the time I

49:38

started comedy, 21. All right,

49:40

so you're dabbling in comedy.

49:43

But at what point do you say

49:45

to yourself, okay, I want to

49:47

make a career out of comedy?

49:49

Never. I never said that

49:51

to myself. Never. Just

49:53

started happening at me. Yeah, I

49:55

just like fell forward somehow. So

49:57

I was doing comedy. I liked

49:59

it. didn't think, and I think, again,

50:01

that was the self-deprecating nature of like,

50:04

well, I wouldn't do it for a

50:06

career. I just like doing it. And

50:08

I think it's fine. That's why the

50:11

kids should stay in education for as

50:13

long as they can and try different

50:15

things and have different jobs, because you

50:17

just move in the direction of what

50:20

you like. And then if you work

50:22

hard enough, if you have the chops

50:24

to have a work ethic about it,

50:26

that will become your vocation, probably. So

50:29

I just did it, I liked it,

50:31

I found a group of people there,

50:33

really like-minded, again misfits from small towns,

50:36

doing stand-up, and I was trying to

50:38

exercise my demons still. I was like,

50:40

okay, well I'll be funny here because

50:42

this is the right environment, and then

50:45

I can go back to Hooters and

50:47

stay on my path of becoming pretty

50:49

and silent. And, um... That's incredible. Yeah.

50:51

And I thought that I could juggle

50:54

the two. And then it turned out

50:56

I just moved more in the direction

50:58

of comedy. I met a boyfriend there.

51:01

Okay. Who was older than I am?

51:03

While you were working at Hooters. While

51:05

I was working at Hooters and while

51:07

I was doing comedy next door. Okay.

51:10

So I was like Batman. By day

51:12

and by I was doing comedy next

51:14

door. Okay. So I was like Batman.

51:17

Right. By day and by night version

51:19

of myself. And I wanted to move

51:21

to the UK. And I was like,

51:23

oh, because I was still quite attached

51:26

to my friends and my sisters and

51:28

my routine in Canada. I never would

51:30

have had the courage to move to

51:32

the UK. But also, I mean, this

51:35

is no disrespect to the UK, but

51:37

how is it that the UK was

51:39

the capital of comedy, I would think

51:42

maybe a New York or LA would

51:44

be? It is the UK, it really

51:46

is. So there are people doing comedy

51:48

in New York and LA. There isn't

51:51

as much stage time, it is really

51:53

competitive. Until you get famous, I don't

51:55

really think that's where you want to

51:57

be. Okay, so UK is interesting. I

52:00

think that during that time anyway, which

52:02

would have been like 2008, a lot

52:04

more was happening at the beginner level

52:06

in comedy. You could make a

52:08

career of it, even if you

52:11

weren't famous, and there were many

52:13

opportunities to become famous through the

52:15

Edinburgh Fringe Festival, or there's a

52:17

lot of mobility. We have panel shows.

52:19

They don't have that in America.

52:21

Still, we don't have very many of

52:24

them anymore, but you know, there was

52:26

a lot of mobility here. It was

52:28

really exciting. And there was kind of

52:30

a voice in comedy in Canada at

52:32

that time that was like the farmer.

52:34

It was like, I hate my wife

52:36

and I drink too much and I

52:39

was very alternative on the property scene in

52:41

Canada. I would not have played

52:43

well in the small towns in

52:45

Winnipeg. It would have been like the

52:47

same reactions that I grew up with

52:49

in Sarnia if I had tried to

52:51

tour in Canada. I follow you. And

52:53

I sort of fell into the voice

52:56

of Canadian comedy at that time. I

52:58

was like, well, I'm a dumb

53:00

slut then, if that's going

53:02

to make you laugh. And

53:04

I, you know, I was

53:06

edgy without understanding how to

53:09

be edgy. I was trying

53:11

to emulate what I

53:13

saw being something that worked

53:15

on a stage in Canada. I

53:17

was just really offensive. I

53:20

don't know what I was

53:22

talking about. I was really

53:24

bad. Right. And it would glimmer

53:27

out every once in a while, but

53:29

I would get loads of advice from

53:31

either my boyfriend or like male comedians

53:33

or bookers who would be like, don't

53:36

dress like that. You know, audiences don't

53:38

want to see you in a dress.

53:40

And don't say that. Like, we don't

53:42

care about women's issues. And that's really

53:45

alternative. And that's never going to work.

53:47

Or you get feedback from the

53:49

audience. I would do the stuff that I thought

53:51

was funny, which I thought was funny. and

53:53

audiences would just stare back at me so I

53:56

just wouldn't do it again. I go, oh, okay.

53:58

Message or see? Can we speak a second? the

54:00

dress? Why would they tell you not

54:02

to wear a dress? Um, well, the

54:04

advice at the time was that women

54:07

wouldn't like me because I was

54:09

like 23 with breast implants working at

54:11

hooders next door, very blonde, very

54:13

tanned, very young. They were like, that

54:15

is not what a comedian looks like.

54:18

A comedian in Canada has like

54:20

a plaid shirt on, a beard, a

54:22

baseball hat is an overweight man who

54:24

smokes weed and hates his wife.

54:26

Okay, and I've landed in the middle.

54:29

I feel like this whimsical jumper

54:31

I've brought for you today. There's a

54:33

gun. I like the jump. I like

54:35

the whole thing. So you're telling

54:37

me then, they were telling you basically,

54:40

you know, stop looking so good.

54:42

Not good, just glamorous. There was no

54:44

place for that in those clubs in

54:46

Canadian comedy at the time. Certainly

54:48

no one else was dressing like that.

54:51

The women, few women that I saw

54:53

would wear jeans and a hoodie.

54:55

trainers and then when I moved to

54:57

the UK shortly thereafter the scene

55:00

was true it was like you'll be

55:02

a distraction and you don't want people

55:04

looking at you you want people

55:06

listening to you because already you have

55:09

so much less integrity because you're

55:11

a woman and hosts would bring you

55:13

up and be like well I'm sorry

55:15

the next act is a woman

55:17

are you serious and I just be

55:20

like uh and when Joe Brand was

55:22

doing comedy she would go between

55:24

exotic dancers exact answers and Joe Brand.

55:26

He had to navigate those working

55:28

clubs. Is that late 90s? Yeah, that's...

55:31

Yeah, which is fine. That's how it

55:33

was then. That's how it was

55:35

different now. That's incredible. I've done it.

55:37

Yeah. So are you now moving to

55:40

the UK for him or for

55:42

your career? Both, something else. I think

55:44

mostly for him because I got

55:46

a job right away. I worked in

55:48

a sales office and I worked full-time

55:51

in central London. and it was

55:53

a grind, but I was really just

55:55

here with him. It was funny

55:57

because we didn't have the best. but

55:59

I wasn't ready to break up. And

56:01

I was like, okay, I'll come there with you, I'll

56:04

see what it's like. And I did see it.

56:06

I started to see it as really exciting.

56:08

As soon as I got here, I was

56:10

like, oh, I felt like a citizen of

56:12

the world. I felt really anonymous and like

56:15

I could do anything, I could be anything

56:17

here. And I thought, oh, how much fun

56:19

is it to just move countries? I felt

56:21

very grown up. Did you have to be

56:24

living with my boyfriend with my boyfriend and

56:26

a different country. Our relationship was not perfect,

56:28

but it had its moments where it was

56:30

good. All right, fair. So if we're just

56:33

going down the track of your career,

56:35

all right, so you're here, you're

56:37

working in a sales office, at what point

56:39

do you feel like you have hit your,

56:41

you know, I'll call your launch pad

56:43

for your comedy career? Well, I

56:46

was really invigorated by the other

56:48

comedians that I saw here. So

56:50

I started going to comedy clubs,

56:52

doing open mics myself for fun

56:54

again. It was always a hobby

56:56

to me. It was always fun.

56:58

He was going to comedy clubs

57:01

a lot. I would go with him. Sometimes

57:03

I'd get on the bill. Most often

57:05

I wouldn't. I certainly wasn't being

57:07

paid to do comedy here. And

57:10

there were new act competitions that

57:12

you could sign up for. female

57:14

comedians to make a whole contest.

57:16

And so I did a few of

57:18

those, really just socially, like to make

57:20

friends. And I met people right away,

57:22

like Joe Lysit, who's really successful now.

57:25

I'm sure you know. Yes. Sarah Pasco

57:27

I met right away, Rochine Conody, Joel

57:29

Domet, even, I started with. Well,

57:31

did you? Ramash, Josh Whitico, I

57:33

started with, Rob Beckit. Okay. It

57:35

was a really good class. Like

57:37

if you look at your graduating

57:39

graduating class. Like the class of

57:41

2008 was really cool. Yeah, that's

57:44

an incredible class right there. And there

57:46

are more that I could be, but I'm

57:48

just leaving them out intentionally.

57:50

Tip Stevenson, we started with

57:53

too, who's great, Mike Wozniak.

57:55

There's so many great people

57:57

in those early competitions. And

57:59

then. And I won some of them. I

58:01

came runner up where I won the ladies one.

58:03

And all of a sudden agents were a

58:05

little bit interested and I thought, oh, there are

58:07

so many opportunities here. I'd be silly not

58:09

to, now I had the experience of doing a

58:11

nine to five in central London running out

58:13

of money at the end of every month. I

58:15

mean, it was really hard. And I'm grateful

58:17

for that experience because I know what working families

58:19

are facing in this country still. It's like

58:21

almost impossible. And I thought,

58:24

how amazing would it be if I

58:26

could get paid to do what I

58:28

love? So then do you get an

58:30

agent? OK, so you get an agent

58:32

and then you were then booked. So

58:34

what is your first? What

58:37

you would consider to be well

58:40

paid at that time? Yeah. Comedy

58:42

gig. Well, I

58:44

very early fell pregnant with my daughter Violet

58:46

on purpose, which people disbelieve. Just wanted to

58:48

have her. I found out that at Lupus,

58:50

which is a drag when I thought at

58:52

the time I might not be able to

58:54

have kids. And so I better have kids

58:56

right now. So even though my partner was

58:59

maybe not the perfect partner, I was like,

59:01

oh, if we haven't broken up by now,

59:03

we never will. I'll stick with him and

59:05

I'll have this baby with him. And he

59:07

was keen. He was older than me anyway.

59:09

He's like, yeah, let's have a baby. Maybe

59:11

men don't think these things through as much.

59:13

And so I had my daughter. So that

59:16

was a little bit of an obstacle early

59:18

in my career. Before I was getting paid,

59:20

I was already a mom to like a

59:22

very young baby. So before you would say

59:24

you can you started your proper comedy

59:27

career, you had a baby. Yeah.

59:29

But you just said something and I

59:31

have to now I have to

59:33

spend a second. Oh, no, man. Yeah.

59:35

You said many people don't believe.

59:38

Yeah. That I intentionally. So what do

59:40

you think people believe she she

59:42

seems like an accident because I became

59:44

a single mother very quickly. I

59:46

was younger than most people now start

59:48

their families. You started your family

59:50

young. Well, you got married young. Yeah.

59:52

Yeah. Early 20s. Yeah. And then

59:55

I had my daughter when I was

59:57

24 and certainly in that community,

59:59

my friends are having babies now. Yes. And

1:00:01

we're 40. Yes. So my daughter's babysitting their babies. And I

1:00:03

was young to have a baby, and especially

1:00:05

in my situation. I mean, it's a bad

1:00:08

idea. I was in a foreign country, 3,000

1:00:10

miles away from anyone who loved me. I

1:00:12

was financially insecure and I was in the

1:00:14

wrong relationship. I would not

1:00:16

advise anyone to really have a baby

1:00:19

in those circumstances. And help me understand

1:00:21

why that was, why lupus in particular

1:00:23

was part of the driver for you

1:00:25

to. get pregnant. Just because I'd never,

1:00:27

I had heard of lupus on both

1:00:30

house and Seinfeld, anecdotally, George Costanza

1:00:32

running around me like, it's not lupus, it's

1:00:34

not lupus, I was like, what is lupus?

1:00:36

And I had these big open sores on

1:00:38

my face. I think I was stressed out.

1:00:41

90% of people who have autoimmune diseases are

1:00:43

women. And again, I think that's maybe because

1:00:45

we internalize a lot. We're very accommodating in

1:00:47

that. comes out in different ways. So

1:00:50

we might not be fighting in the

1:00:52

pub. But we're like, just low level,

1:00:54

causing inflammation. So I had these open

1:00:56

stores on my face as soon as

1:00:59

I moved to London. And I think

1:01:01

it was really scary for me and

1:01:03

really isolating. And I felt very stressed

1:01:05

at the time. And then I had

1:01:08

joint pain and I had fevers. And I

1:01:10

was just really unwell. And I thought,

1:01:12

how can I exploit the NHS? I

1:01:14

finally was diagnosed with this autoimmune disease

1:01:16

and when I found out what it

1:01:19

was, I mean, you should never Google anything

1:01:21

that you have. It's usually not as

1:01:23

severe as it looks, but it looked

1:01:25

like infertility was one of the complications

1:01:27

and that if I went on this

1:01:29

medication, which I'm still on today, that

1:01:32

you go blind and that you could

1:01:34

die, and that you might have a

1:01:36

kidney transplant, like we know, Salina Gomez

1:01:38

has had on, all these terrible things

1:01:40

can happen. All these terrible things can

1:01:42

happen. And I just didn't know what the

1:01:44

future would hold with Lubis. And I felt

1:01:47

so sick at the time that I thought, well,

1:01:49

maybe I will be sick forever and I'll die

1:01:51

young or I won't have kids. And so I

1:01:53

just tried once, but at 24, you get

1:01:55

pregnant as soon as you try. Just like

1:01:57

that, you think about it. Yeah, I thought

1:01:59

about it. Can I ask about at

1:02:01

the time you knew that you

1:02:03

weren't with the strongest partner? No.

1:02:06

This is a, I think, a

1:02:08

question that a lot of women

1:02:10

in particular face. They're like, okay,

1:02:12

I want to be a mom,

1:02:14

right? But my partner sucks. Yeah.

1:02:16

What do I do? So how

1:02:18

did you decide? How do you

1:02:20

make that decision that this is

1:02:22

going to be? the father of

1:02:24

my child. I mean proximity I

1:02:27

guess it was the nearest dick

1:02:29

closest to me at the time.

1:02:31

It's called it's called dick proximity.

1:02:33

This is a new thing we

1:02:35

shouldn't. No it wasn't. I mean

1:02:37

we again we had good days

1:02:39

and bad days and I did

1:02:41

love him. I've been tethered by

1:02:43

love a lot of times in

1:02:45

my life and made probably like

1:02:48

not so such rational decisions based

1:02:50

on that and I did think

1:02:52

it's not a terrible relationship. It's

1:02:54

not a terrible relationship. He has

1:02:56

some flaws, we aren't the perfect

1:02:58

match, but if we haven't broken

1:03:00

up by now, I bet we

1:03:02

never will, which is a ridiculous

1:03:04

reason to have a baby. But

1:03:06

I'm glad, I mean, I don't

1:03:09

regret any of it, and I've

1:03:11

explored this, like, what do you

1:03:13

do if your biological legacy is

1:03:15

impeded by... the partner that you're

1:03:17

with, what do you do? Do

1:03:19

you wait around until it's too

1:03:21

late? Like, I've explored this in

1:03:23

my Netflix series called The Duchess.

1:03:25

Luckily, I think money opens up

1:03:27

a lot of doors to a

1:03:30

lot of modern women, but if

1:03:32

you don't have that, what are

1:03:34

you going to do? And I

1:03:36

think that if we really had

1:03:38

true biological equality, women would be

1:03:40

freezing their eggs on the NHS

1:03:42

age 25. and they wouldn't have

1:03:44

to worry about it and they'd

1:03:46

make such different life decisions. Because

1:03:48

we're meant to have all this

1:03:51

sewn up at such a young

1:03:53

age. Can I say? Now that

1:03:55

right there is political. I love

1:03:57

it. You would have the eggs

1:03:59

that you want it? But really,

1:04:01

really, and to your point is

1:04:03

that decisions would be made much

1:04:05

differently. Though, they are finding with

1:04:08

microplastics and with lifestyle

1:04:10

changes that men's fertility

1:04:13

is going down as

1:04:15

well. It's on a decline, yeah.

1:04:17

And people are waiting longer and...

1:04:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But my daughter

1:04:21

is the greatest mistake I ever

1:04:23

made. I always tell her that.

1:04:25

Because... on paper, it looks like

1:04:28

a really bad idea, but as

1:04:30

soon as she was born, instantly

1:04:32

I became so clear and

1:04:35

so motivated. My standards rose

1:04:37

and I became very successful

1:04:40

and I left my partner and

1:04:43

I became very calm and really

1:04:45

happy and peaceful and I wouldn't

1:04:48

have any of those things without

1:04:50

her and I might have... I

1:04:52

might have been out partying or

1:04:54

I don't know what young comedians

1:04:56

were doing at that time but

1:04:59

I was going straight home. Yes

1:05:01

isn't that poetic that is poetic

1:05:03

and so you would say that

1:05:05

your career your proper career as

1:05:07

a comedian began really through

1:05:09

the birth of your daughter absolutely

1:05:11

it did yeah yeah so what was

1:05:14

first when you look back like gig

1:05:16

that you were proud of that

1:05:18

was prominent Well, very soon after she

1:05:20

was born, I was cast in a

1:05:22

Channel 4 comedy called Campus. Jonathan Bailey

1:05:24

is in it, who you might know

1:05:26

from Wicked and Mariterton. Andy Niman is

1:05:28

in it. You might know from Wicked

1:05:30

as well. It was an amazing series.

1:05:32

I was not very good in it

1:05:34

because I wasn't an actress, but somehow

1:05:37

I got this role. And I think

1:05:39

that was just the confidence of walking

1:05:41

into these auditions now, knowing that my

1:05:43

daughter deserved an incredible life and I

1:05:45

was going to be the one to get

1:05:47

it for her. and that paid 25,000

1:05:49

pounds at a time when I had

1:05:51

I was running out of money at

1:05:54

the end of every month. I

1:05:56

had no savings whatsoever and it

1:05:58

just gave me so much. breathing

1:06:00

space. I was like, wow, I'm going to be

1:06:02

in this comedy series and like get paid

1:06:04

to do something that's so much fun

1:06:06

and it was amazing and by that

1:06:08

it was six months old when I

1:06:11

was cast in that and she was nine

1:06:13

months old when we filmed it and I

1:06:15

brought her to set. You know, I was going to

1:06:17

say, how do you manage that? Well, sometimes her

1:06:19

dad would look after her sometimes she

1:06:21

would stay with a babysitter but

1:06:23

I would bring her a lot and

1:06:26

she's in my trailer. I'm still breastfeeding,

1:06:28

like it is difficult. Yes. The friends

1:06:30

that I have, even like male

1:06:32

friends now, at age 40 who are

1:06:34

having babies, all of a sudden

1:06:36

they have respect for me. They're

1:06:39

like, why? Now they have respect

1:06:41

for you. I think that it

1:06:43

is only the 40 year old

1:06:45

guys who actually are participating as

1:06:47

active fathers who have the respect,

1:06:50

because I think there's still too

1:06:52

much imbalance to this day. I

1:06:54

mean, unfortunately. I know people who

1:06:57

men who have five children, they've

1:06:59

never changed, what is it here,

1:07:01

we're diapers, what is it here,

1:07:04

a nappy? Nappies, yeah. Never changed

1:07:06

a napping. I was like, what?

1:07:08

You never, let me take the

1:07:10

father card. It's absurd. But at

1:07:13

that time, you're carrying most of

1:07:15

that weight, it feels like you're

1:07:17

a single parent. All right, so

1:07:19

career is growing. All right, do you

1:07:21

think? This is my career. My career

1:07:23

is now. I'm a I'm a I'm a

1:07:26

comedian and actress. Yes, as soon as

1:07:28

my daughter was born. I believed that

1:07:30

I could do it. That was it. Okay. All

1:07:32

right. So do you begin touring around this

1:07:34

time or new? I didn't tour

1:07:37

until I was on television. So I

1:07:39

would do the Edinburgh French festival, which is

1:07:41

a great way to get your start and

1:07:43

comedy. I would gig a lot. I started

1:07:45

getting paid for doing just gigs. There's so

1:07:47

many gigs in the UK that you can

1:07:50

do and coming from North America. It's so

1:07:52

small that you can actually get to all

1:07:54

of them on trains. It's amazing. You can't

1:07:56

do that at home. I would bring my

1:07:58

daughter with me a lot. And because I

1:08:00

had this community of comedians whom I

1:08:02

loved and trusted and we were only

1:08:05

on stage for 15 minutes each A

1:08:07

lot of them would watch her backstage

1:08:09

side of stage and then I started

1:08:11

touring around the time she was three

1:08:13

Properly like my own Tickets for my

1:08:15

name I was usually an unwelcome surprise

1:08:17

on a mixed bill, but this was

1:08:19

like people coming to see me on

1:08:21

purpose All right fair yeah, and that was

1:08:23

once I got on eight out of ten cats

1:08:26

and that was May 2012 I would have been

1:08:28

a month before my daughter turned three So

1:08:30

in this research, I had to go back.

1:08:32

So I was like, I didn't even,

1:08:34

I didn't see it. No, you weren't

1:08:36

here. So I went back and I

1:08:39

was like, let me check out Catherine

1:08:41

Royne during this time. And you know

1:08:43

what stood out to me, because

1:08:46

I watched you in that 2012 year,

1:08:48

is that you were lightning fast

1:08:50

in your delivery. And you

1:08:52

were typically, one of the only ladies,

1:08:55

you know. And so my two

1:08:57

questions there is. first on the

1:08:59

lightning fast is what was what's

1:09:01

your your preparation because I think

1:09:04

a lot of people like me who are

1:09:06

not funny we think okay you're

1:09:08

just funny yeah so as a result

1:09:10

you just show up there's no

1:09:12

preparation you just sit there and

1:09:14

you tell jokes like because just

1:09:16

off the top but but you were

1:09:19

so quick that I thought there's there

1:09:21

must be lots of preparation behind

1:09:23

this what's your take in

1:09:25

how did you actually prepare

1:09:27

For panel shows specifically, I'd say

1:09:29

it's 50-50 split, you have to

1:09:32

listen and respond, and the audience

1:09:34

can tell when something is just improvised

1:09:36

in the room, and they really do like

1:09:38

that. But for eight out of 10 cats,

1:09:41

and any of those news shows really mock

1:09:43

the week, or even how have I got

1:09:45

news for you, never mind the Buzzcocks, you

1:09:47

do have a list of things you

1:09:49

know you're going to be talking about.

1:09:51

So then you would be foolish not

1:09:53

to have five jokes, at least on each.

1:09:55

a production rundown of like we're going to talk about these

1:09:57

news stories, we're going to talk about FIFA, we're going to talk

1:09:59

about the and politics, we're going to talk

1:10:01

about that. So I would sit at

1:10:03

home with Violet, just playing on the

1:10:05

floor on my daughter, and I would override

1:10:08

if I could. And I knew the

1:10:10

format. You have to be a fan

1:10:12

of the shows too to know how

1:10:14

it works. They're not going to wait

1:10:16

for me to deliver a paragraph of

1:10:18

this long-winded joke with no punchline when

1:10:20

there are all these other funny comedians

1:10:22

on the show and it only lasts

1:10:24

like 25 minutes. So you have to

1:10:26

have one-liners ready. of like delivering another one

1:10:28

if the first one doesn't work. Yes. And

1:10:30

they'll cut that out, you just have to

1:10:33

play it for the edit. So I might

1:10:35

say something in the live record, which is

1:10:37

again why it's so exciting for audiences to

1:10:39

come to the live record, because you get

1:10:41

a longer show, you get maybe a messy show, but

1:10:43

it's, you know, it's spontaneous. I'd say

1:10:45

something, no one would laugh. Well, some comedians

1:10:48

would go quiet then and go,

1:10:50

oh gosh, that diet. They don't

1:10:52

like me, but you just say

1:10:54

something again. Say something again, as

1:10:56

though it didn't happen. And I

1:10:58

was really good at that. I

1:11:00

was very impervious to shame. That

1:11:02

has helped me in my life.

1:11:04

Impervious to shame. Can I say,

1:11:06

I almost picked that up? Because

1:11:08

also what I noticed was that

1:11:11

people would say things that were offensive.

1:11:13

like about me yeah yeah yeah to

1:11:15

like to you not just to you

1:11:18

like it was like it felt

1:11:20

like people in essence

1:11:22

that the comedians were

1:11:24

targeting each other yeah but

1:11:26

that's fun for us on like

1:11:28

offensive yeah you're like really

1:11:30

what's offensive but but so

1:11:32

but how do you so it

1:11:34

doesn't you don't feel any

1:11:37

type of there's there's

1:11:39

nothing when you're not

1:11:41

offended no I love it a

1:11:43

badge of honor. Like I think it's

1:11:45

a real compliment that someone researched enough

1:11:47

about me to write a joke at

1:11:49

my expense. And I think it's a

1:11:52

show of mental dexterity. I find

1:11:54

it attractive. I like when other

1:11:56

people have a sense of humor

1:11:58

about themselves and I like when someone

1:12:00

surprises me. I think a lot

1:12:02

of comedy is about surprise. So

1:12:04

Jimmy Carr is the best at it.

1:12:07

But when he surprises me with like

1:12:09

a new insult that he hasn't said

1:12:11

before, especially the more it hits

1:12:13

home and truthful it, I'll all

1:12:15

recognize that it's a great joke

1:12:17

and I love it. And I love

1:12:19

that it's about me. How can the

1:12:22

non-communians? How can we borrow a

1:12:24

page from that? Because I think we

1:12:26

do. I think we as a society.

1:12:28

we're taking things way, way too

1:12:30

seriously, right? And so how do

1:12:33

we get some of what you have?

1:12:35

I think the first step is

1:12:37

in acknowledging that nothing

1:12:39

matters very much and very

1:12:42

little matters at all. It's

1:12:44

so superficial and it's fun

1:12:46

and it can be fun

1:12:48

to understand that it's

1:12:51

not mean-spirited. I think it's

1:12:53

lovely. Yes. Difficult for

1:12:55

me to explain. because

1:12:57

it's just so much a part of

1:12:59

who I am. I think everyone can

1:13:02

feel when something is bullying or when

1:13:04

something's mean-spirited and when it's not. I

1:13:06

don't play sports, but... Guys on

1:13:08

like the basketball court don't take

1:13:11

things personally, do they? Right. They

1:13:13

get competitive, but they probably would

1:13:15

say after the game, they're friends,

1:13:18

they've been on other teams, they go,

1:13:20

that was an amazing jump shot. Right.

1:13:22

Is that the word? Yeah, that

1:13:24

sounded good. You sound like you

1:13:26

know what you're talking about. Yeah.

1:13:28

It's just people showing off, like

1:13:31

doing their tricks. Yes. And to

1:13:33

involve you and the trick, it's

1:13:35

a language of love. Now

1:13:37

it's like, who cares? Yes. Nobody

1:13:39

died. It's all... Just some

1:13:41

words. I think people are

1:13:43

ready for edgy comedy

1:13:45

again. Yeah, I think so too.

1:13:47

And you think it's off the heels

1:13:50

of cancel culture not

1:13:52

being so cancel? I

1:13:54

think stupidity stands in

1:13:56

the way of people being

1:13:58

able to different... comedy

1:14:00

and hate speech. And I

1:14:02

remember very clearly when Donald

1:14:05

Trump was running for office

1:14:07

the first time, and I think

1:14:09

Bioncet was maybe supporting

1:14:12

Hillary Clinton's campaign. I

1:14:14

remember the the real

1:14:16

radical Trump supporters referencing

1:14:19

the grab her by

1:14:21

the pussy incident. Yes. And

1:14:23

they would say, how is

1:14:25

that different from Bioncet gyrating

1:14:28

in a unitard? And

1:14:30

someone like me would be

1:14:32

like, well, the entire difference

1:14:34

is consent and autonomy. And

1:14:36

sex isn't sex abuse. Exactly.

1:14:38

There's a list of 50 things. Right. That

1:14:40

exists in comedy too. Roasting is

1:14:43

all about consent. You wouldn't

1:14:45

take someone from a bus stop and

1:14:47

be like, now we're going to tell

1:14:49

you everything that's wrong with

1:14:51

your outfit. That's an ambush.

1:14:54

There's no consent there. That's

1:14:56

really mean-spirited. Right. Everyone participating.

1:14:59

You know, if you look at comedy

1:15:01

like that, it's a laugh, it's

1:15:03

finding light in the dark,

1:15:05

sometimes it's trauma adjacent,

1:15:08

but it doesn't mean to punch

1:15:10

down at the victim or

1:15:13

the person or the situation

1:15:15

that's been like traumatized. Yes,

1:15:17

yes. That is a... brilliant

1:15:19

commentary in terms of stupidity

1:15:21

being, they're so dumb, being,

1:15:23

I mean, that's ultimately what

1:15:25

it is. You're absolutely right. And

1:15:27

everyone knows that, just people are

1:15:30

afraid to call it entire demographic stupid.

1:15:32

But I'm not. But you just

1:15:34

did. And I don't mean every

1:15:36

right-wing person is stupid. I don't

1:15:38

mean that at all. They're very

1:15:40

stupid left-wing people right now. Deeply

1:15:42

stupid. There are. It's increasing actually,

1:15:44

actually, good for them. Yeah. How

1:15:46

you were able to outperform because

1:15:48

I really didn't feel like you were outperforming

1:15:50

like you were a star You can see that

1:15:52

you were a star So what about the fact

1:15:54

that there was there's just no women in

1:15:56

comedy? You know I was doing this this

1:15:58

research and saw that there or it's less

1:16:00

than 20% of professional comedians in

1:16:03

the UK are women. Why is

1:16:05

that? I have mostly retired

1:16:07

from discussing women in

1:16:09

comedy, only because with the

1:16:12

best intentions, however I

1:16:14

articulate myself here, it'll be lifted

1:16:16

and put into a headline. Like,

1:16:18

Cather Ryan says, and then it's

1:16:20

like I rang up the mirror

1:16:22

specifically to say it. I need

1:16:24

to talk to a journalist now. I

1:16:26

get asked about it and so I

1:16:28

do have an opinion on it. I

1:16:31

think that it has changed for the

1:16:33

better. I'm peaceful about the fact

1:16:35

that that's going to take time.

1:16:37

Fewer women get started in

1:16:40

comedy. Fewer women persist

1:16:42

in the grind of becoming a

1:16:44

famous comedian either because they have

1:16:46

families or it's not as safe

1:16:48

for them to take the night

1:16:50

bus home or to sleep on

1:16:52

a floor with like four strange

1:16:54

men, which is when I was starting

1:16:57

company sometimes what it took to

1:16:59

do those gigs to drive six

1:17:01

hours for 20 quid like I think

1:17:03

a lot of women have higher standards than

1:17:05

to do that. It wouldn't have been safe

1:17:07

for me to do that with Violet. No,

1:17:10

not at all. I got lucky in a

1:17:12

lot of ways but also I think a

1:17:14

lot of the audience are still

1:17:16

completely unable to receive comedy

1:17:19

from a woman and they'll say

1:17:21

women aren't funny. All right, well if

1:17:23

your audience thinks that it's going to

1:17:25

be very difficult to change their mind

1:17:28

and a production team and then a

1:17:30

network and then advertisers Really do have

1:17:32

to adhere to what the majority want

1:17:35

right so if the majority don't think

1:17:37

that women are funny Why are you

1:17:39

going to have a show with all

1:17:41

women just like prove them wrong? Well,

1:17:43

it's not financially viable yet. So you

1:17:46

put one woman on and you

1:17:48

see how it goes and the

1:17:50

same is true not just with

1:17:52

women by the way, but with

1:17:54

socioeconomic backgrounds and like with diversity

1:17:56

and ethnicity and gender identification like

1:17:58

we've seen a lot that now

1:18:00

just purposefully chucked in to the

1:18:03

mainstream and a lot of those shows

1:18:05

don't do well because it's either

1:18:07

too soon or it's done sloppily

1:18:09

and people you know what I mean

1:18:11

it's going to take time for an

1:18:14

audience because it all lies with

1:18:16

the audience until the majority

1:18:18

of an audience are able to

1:18:20

receive that it's just it's not

1:18:22

going to happen. And then if

1:18:24

you challenge it at all, and

1:18:26

I'm not afraid to challenge it,

1:18:28

again because I'm impervious to shame

1:18:30

and criticism, if I

1:18:33

say, oh, Billboard released their

1:18:35

2024 list of the highest-grossing

1:18:37

comedians this year, and it's

1:18:39

10 men, if I comment on that

1:18:41

at all, then the hatred and

1:18:43

the... the discrediting that fills the

1:18:46

comments and the insults. They always

1:18:48

do the same thing. They'll go

1:18:50

for you. They'll go, well, you

1:18:52

could be on that list. Women

1:18:54

are funny, but you're not funny.

1:18:57

And also, you're ugly. And also,

1:18:59

you're fat. And also, you're crazy.

1:19:01

And also, you're crazy. And also,

1:19:03

you're crazy. And also, you're crazy.

1:19:06

And also, and also, you're crazy.

1:19:08

And it's like, you set yourself

1:19:10

up as a target. Which I do.

1:19:12

Women's minds need to be changed to

1:19:14

it's not just men women are I

1:19:17

think the worst offenders for saying well

1:19:19

I don't think women are funny Yeah,

1:19:21

and they'll say oh well women just

1:19:23

talk about really niche women's issues Well

1:19:26

I looked at the list of

1:19:28

the top grossing comedians in the

1:19:30

US and they're making like 60

1:19:32

million dollars a year grossing frozen

1:19:34

tours. This isn't who's the funniest

1:19:36

right? Who's selling the most? The

1:19:38

top spot is this American man. I

1:19:40

don't even know him, but he's doing

1:19:43

very well. He's very funny. But he

1:19:45

bills himself. Nate Bragazzi is his kid.

1:19:47

Right? We don't know. But he's very

1:19:49

talented. I watched his special on

1:19:51

purpose because he's number one. So

1:19:53

people are motivated to buy tickets

1:19:56

to go see him. And that's

1:19:58

really what counts in comedy. He

1:20:00

builds himself as a husband and father. That's

1:20:02

the first two things about him, husband, father. Well,

1:20:06

if I was number one, building

1:20:08

myself as a woman and a

1:20:10

mother, a wife and a mother,

1:20:12

then that would be considered like,

1:20:14

she's very feminist, very niche, very

1:20:16

ways that she is. But for

1:20:19

some reason, a man's experience in

1:20:21

that arena is universal, but

1:20:23

a woman's experience is niche. So women

1:20:25

and men will go to see Nate

1:20:27

Bregazzi, whether he's a father, a man,

1:20:29

a husband, whatever, and they'll listen to

1:20:31

his stories, which are about his experience

1:20:33

as a man, as a husband, and

1:20:35

they'll see themselves in it somehow, or

1:20:38

they'll relate to him somehow. And he

1:20:40

will never be accused of just talking

1:20:42

about his period. Yeah,

1:20:46

this is

1:20:48

where I have

1:20:50

an interesting take on this, because you

1:20:52

can take that exactly what you

1:20:54

said, you can say, okay, let's talk

1:20:56

about black Americans. Ben, it is

1:20:58

exactly the same, go on. Yeah, it

1:21:00

is exactly the same. And I

1:21:02

have this discussion with my friend, my

1:21:04

black friends in particular around us all the time. It's

1:21:07

like, okay, well, what do we do? How

1:21:09

do we change the

1:21:12

audience's perspective? Because you're absolutely right.

1:21:14

It's about the audience, because ultimately

1:21:16

what I would feel like with

1:21:18

entertainment is it's bookends for

1:21:20

advertisers and sponsors. And so you do

1:21:22

have to change the audience, but to

1:21:25

a certain extent, you're still limited. I

1:21:27

could see the limitations that are still placed

1:21:29

on you. How

1:21:31

do you go out and

1:21:33

change the perspective of the audience?

1:21:35

How do you do it? Katherine, tell us

1:21:37

how you do it, what's the answer? It's a

1:21:40

lot of responsibility when

1:21:42

you're put on a pedestal, you

1:21:44

represent your entire demographic, because

1:21:47

on a comedy show, if a man's

1:21:49

not funny, he's not funny, but if

1:21:51

I'm not funny, women aren't funny. And

1:21:53

I love what you said about that,

1:21:55

because I think, yes, the white experience

1:21:57

is universal and mainstream, and then anything

1:21:59

else is... urban or is like we

1:22:01

even have a black comedy circuit in

1:22:03

this country. I think there's not a

1:22:06

lot we can do but keep on

1:22:08

keeping on and through different examples people

1:22:10

will start to get used to it.

1:22:12

Nikki Glazer hosting the Golden Globes. It's

1:22:15

the first woman to do a solo

1:22:17

in its history and she smashed it.

1:22:19

She worked 20 times harder than anyone

1:22:21

else for 20 years and she was

1:22:24

given that opportunity and she wasn't afraid

1:22:26

of bombing and so that's one you

1:22:28

know it's just just gonna take time

1:22:30

I feel like that's a boring answer

1:22:33

but that's my only answer I mean

1:22:35

I'm with that answer it's about working

1:22:37

your ass is like we have to

1:22:39

work we have to work like that's

1:22:42

it we have to be exceptional you

1:22:44

know I remember growing up I was

1:22:46

told Paul you need to be twice

1:22:48

as good at everything that you're doing

1:22:51

or you won't even have an opportunity

1:22:53

like just to get the opportunity you

1:22:55

have to be twice as good and

1:22:58

and and that really focused me on

1:23:00

doing the work. I was at the

1:23:02

glamour. Yes, you were. I was like,

1:23:04

there was like five minutes. Stood out,

1:23:07

yeah. I think, Bobby, I think he

1:23:09

was like, he was five of us.

1:23:11

That was my first time seeing you

1:23:13

like live, like doing your thing. And

1:23:16

you really, like I'm not trying to

1:23:18

gas you up, you commanded the room,

1:23:20

you delivered unapologetically. And I felt like

1:23:22

you weren't even waiting to see if

1:23:25

there was a laugh. That's a tough

1:23:27

one, glamorous, because you do have to

1:23:29

speak about the female experience throughout the

1:23:31

year. And a lot of that is

1:23:34

really dark. That's a little bit different.

1:23:36

Paul, you can come to see me

1:23:38

when I'm at the Palladium. I don't

1:23:40

go so dark on tour. They're like,

1:23:43

we'd like you to talk about Iran.

1:23:45

I'm like, okay. You were, yeah, you

1:23:47

were going there. You have to? And

1:23:49

mix it with light and dark. But

1:23:52

the way that you delivered it was,

1:23:54

I am confident. and what I'm doing.

1:23:56

Like I'm a professional, you know, and

1:23:58

it wasn't, I'm waiting for your... validation.

1:24:01

I already, you know, never known

1:24:03

how to do that. Yeah, but

1:24:05

I think that's, that's something

1:24:07

that I greatly appreciate about

1:24:09

your work. All right, so

1:24:12

can we talk about relationships?

1:24:15

Just a little bit. Yes.

1:24:17

All right, because after Violet,

1:24:19

you're single. You, your

1:24:21

career is, you're growing,

1:24:23

your status is growing.

1:24:26

The money is starting to

1:24:28

flow, Catherine, right? bad

1:24:30

ones, good ones coming.

1:24:32

What's happening with the men?

1:24:34

Well, in my work, I always try

1:24:36

to sprinkle in like more

1:24:38

men than there really were because

1:24:40

I feel like that blurs who

1:24:42

I'm talking about and I never

1:24:45

want to, you know, invade their

1:24:47

privacy because I don't

1:24:49

want anyone guessing like which

1:24:51

ones she talking about. So I...

1:24:53

I tend to, I mean they're

1:24:56

all quite similar so it's easy

1:24:58

to do, but I tend to

1:25:00

borrow like situations and experiences from

1:25:02

them and just sort of mix

1:25:04

them up, change features to... To

1:25:06

write a time, hide the identity,

1:25:08

anonymity. You know what I mean?

1:25:10

It's better for me, it's better

1:25:13

for me, it's better for that.

1:25:15

But basically I was never single,

1:25:17

I was leaving that relationship and

1:25:19

I got out, he sort of deserved

1:25:21

to be cheated on anyway. So, um...

1:25:23

I was in a new relationship and

1:25:25

someone, I know who but I never mention

1:25:28

who, called actual child protective

1:25:30

services and I was investigated

1:25:32

for I don't know what,

1:25:34

they don't tell you when

1:25:36

they come. So they just come knock on

1:25:38

your door. Yeah. So they don't call,

1:25:40

they just like knock on your door.

1:25:42

They send a letter, they sent a

1:25:45

letter while I was at the Edinburgh

1:25:47

Fringe Festival with my daughter so I

1:25:49

didn't respond to the letter because I

1:25:51

was away for the money. I won't say

1:25:54

mean, I like that they do their job

1:25:56

as an innocent civilian. I'm like, well good,

1:25:58

but they're very aggressive. you have not

1:26:00

responded to this letter, we are

1:26:03

coming to do a home visit, what are

1:26:05

you available? And I panicked

1:26:07

because the only thing that mattered to

1:26:09

me in my life at that point

1:26:11

was, and still is my daughter. And

1:26:14

again, I'm so grateful that an experience

1:26:16

like this just melts away, and again,

1:26:18

I'm so grateful that an experience like

1:26:21

this just melts away, all the stuff

1:26:23

that doesn't matter. And I went, well,

1:26:25

what do you mean? What for? And

1:26:28

they don't tell you, like, worry that

1:26:30

entire night I didn't sleep because I

1:26:32

mean your child is not yours she's her own

1:26:34

person she moves out into the world she's

1:26:37

her own self but while she's young she's

1:26:39

really like 50% yours I didn't know what

1:26:41

was going to happen I didn't know like

1:26:43

what lies were going to be told what

1:26:45

was going to be done I just felt

1:26:47

very vulnerable and no one could fix this

1:26:50

and you're alone and shameful like shame

1:26:52

I think for the first time because

1:26:54

I thought oh my gosh like a

1:26:56

an entire organization is investigating me when

1:26:58

I knew I have always known like one thing

1:27:00

I'm better at than comedy than

1:27:02

anything else. I'm such a good mom. I

1:27:05

know that. And these two ladies arrived at

1:27:07

the flat where I was living, which I

1:27:09

was renting. And they came in and I

1:27:11

think they were hostile in a way

1:27:13

at first and almost immediately. It's

1:27:15

amazing how they know what they're

1:27:17

looking for. It's like as soon as

1:27:19

they meet your child, as soon as they meet

1:27:22

you, they just seemed disarmed all of

1:27:24

a sudden and they looked around. and

1:27:26

her artwork covered all the walls and she's

1:27:28

such a happy lovely little girl and

1:27:30

I spoke to them about my relationship

1:27:32

status my relationship for what was going

1:27:34

on like who I was and almost

1:27:36

immediately they didn't suspect us anymore and

1:27:39

then they went they still they can't

1:27:41

tell you exactly why they're there but

1:27:43

they went down a list of sort

1:27:45

of things we would have to present

1:27:47

ourselves at like a place a

1:27:49

child protective like place for more investigations

1:27:51

we'd have to go to a doctor

1:27:53

I don't know what they wanted to do with her,

1:27:55

like she would have to see a nurse, they'd have

1:27:57

to do all these things, and it just makes you

1:27:59

feel... really dirty but all the

1:28:01

while I was happy that they

1:28:03

were there I'm happy that this

1:28:05

is the job that they do because

1:28:08

there will be vulnerable children who are

1:28:10

being abused or whatever and then

1:28:12

right away they started offering me

1:28:14

services for like not domestic

1:28:17

abuse but coercive control and there

1:28:19

are people who will make you

1:28:22

feel threatened through this kind of

1:28:24

thing. Okay now it makes sense. You

1:28:26

know what I mean? They offered me

1:28:28

that support and then so we

1:28:30

still had to go through the

1:28:32

motions of going to these appointments

1:28:35

But they never went through with

1:28:37

any more examinations every time I

1:28:39

went to these appointments is about

1:28:41

supporting me. Okay. Yeah, so

1:28:43

this is This is a romantic interest

1:28:45

of the past I would imagine I

1:28:47

sort of yeah trying to exert coercive

1:28:50

control. It's just kind of

1:28:52

the most disgusting thing you can

1:28:54

do because it's the It was the way

1:28:56

to hurt me the most. I would rather

1:28:58

be beat up or anything else. It's

1:29:00

the way to hurt a single mother

1:29:02

the most. It was really scary at

1:29:04

the time, really bad. But again, I

1:29:06

knew that my daughter was well looked

1:29:08

at. But there's always a question in

1:29:11

your head, like, what if someone

1:29:13

doesn't believe that? And not even for

1:29:15

me, like, what happens to her then?

1:29:17

Where does she go? Like, what's going

1:29:20

to happen next? Even a one

1:29:22

percent chance of having your child

1:29:24

taken away. She and I were thick as

1:29:27

thieves as we say in this country like

1:29:29

she would never have tolerated being taken for

1:29:31

me Like it would have been worse for

1:29:33

her I think then for me at the

1:29:35

time and that's when I was focused

1:29:37

on it was just so horrible But

1:29:40

once I got past that Nothing has

1:29:42

ever really upset me again, right? Yeah,

1:29:44

because everything else is meaningless compared you

1:29:46

know compared to that so that

1:29:48

was I mean that was someone

1:29:51

doing something incredibly devious

1:29:53

really vindictive Yes, malicious.

1:29:55

Very much so. And

1:29:57

so this person obviously

1:30:00

you probably knew who it was

1:30:02

at the time. How did you then

1:30:04

ever feel safe? It took me a

1:30:06

while. I never confronted that person

1:30:08

about it. Again, I just internalized.

1:30:10

I think that person probably

1:30:12

wanted a reaction from

1:30:15

me, so I just gave no

1:30:17

reaction. I never spoke about it.

1:30:19

I didn't even speak about it

1:30:21

happening for about a decade until

1:30:23

I wrote my book. Because it

1:30:25

is shameful. It's like, ooh. And I

1:30:27

feel it's so interesting to talk to

1:30:29

you Paul, because I don't have a

1:30:32

lot of feelings. And I like

1:30:34

feeling a little bit like an

1:30:36

advice. It's refreshing for me. I

1:30:38

don't feel this way very often.

1:30:40

Like, oh yeah, I'm like the Tin Man.

1:30:43

Just the hardest beating. Oh

1:30:45

yeah, I used to be scared of

1:30:47

things. You know, I truly had chills

1:30:49

with you describing that story,

1:30:51

because I know being a

1:30:53

parent how... your child, your children,

1:30:55

or your life. And you know

1:30:58

how competent this government is?

1:31:00

I mean, I don't know,

1:31:02

they're going to do. Yes,

1:31:04

this is now an offense.

1:31:06

This is an actual you

1:31:08

will be imprisoned for coercive

1:31:10

control. And this is happening,

1:31:13

unfortunately, disproportionately to many women.

1:31:15

And that by itself, did

1:31:17

you feel that in the relationship?

1:31:19

Did you feel the coercion there?

1:31:22

Interestingly, my subsequent

1:31:24

relationship was a lot

1:31:27

more controlling and aggressive. I

1:31:29

kind of went from the, what

1:31:31

do they call it, from the

1:31:33

fire into the pan? Yes. Yeah. That

1:31:35

one, I think, well, again, and

1:31:37

I'm growing up in these relationships,

1:31:40

like this is why, I

1:31:43

don't think anyone should really

1:31:45

date before 30, because I

1:31:47

started these relationships when I

1:31:49

was 20 years old, so. I

1:31:51

didn't even have the language coercive

1:31:53

control. With that person, did you

1:31:55

feel like he was trying to

1:31:58

isolate you from friends? Yeah,

1:32:00

definitely. And I would, it was

1:32:02

other comedians actually who would point

1:32:04

it out to me. I'd go somewhere

1:32:07

and I was getting to

1:32:09

be successful, which he really hated.

1:32:11

And just his body language, or

1:32:13

he'd get me in a corner and

1:32:15

be saying something to me angrily. He

1:32:18

was angry with me a lot. They

1:32:20

would take me aside and be like,

1:32:22

are you okay? Like guys I worked

1:32:24

with and women would be like, are

1:32:27

you an abusive relationship? Yeah,

1:32:29

I don't even think about him a

1:32:31

lot at all, but thinking back, like

1:32:33

he was, I just remember him

1:32:35

as controlling, isolating, talking about

1:32:37

how I did things, how I cleaned my

1:32:40

house, how I cooked food, how I dressed

1:32:42

little things, how my appearance should be, how

1:32:44

I should get pedicures. He'd be

1:32:46

like, you need to be getting pedicures for

1:32:48

me. I mean, like, I am

1:32:50

a financially destitute single mother and

1:32:52

I won't be doing that. Yeah,

1:32:54

where does it come from? Yeah, and

1:32:57

a lot of sexual control and

1:32:59

like pushing me to do like

1:33:01

things I wasn't comfortable with

1:33:03

or like he was just very weird.

1:33:06

It's interesting hearing