0:40

Welcome to Being Boss, a podcast for

0:40

creatives, business owners and entrepreneurs who want to

0:44

take control of their work and live life on their own terms.

0:44

I'm your host Emily Thompson. And in this episode, I'm

0:50

joined by Shawanda Mason and Jennifer Holder, nonprofit

0:50

co-founders to talk about the mindset shifts of creating

0:58

free offerings for your audience, and engaging with free

0:58

offerings as a consumer. You can find all the tools books

1:05

and links we reference on the show notes at

1:05

www.beingboss.club. And if you liked this episode, be sure

1:11

to subscribe to this show and share us with a friend.

1:17

Whether you're a full time boss or dabbling in a side hustle

1:17

learning from those who have already been there done that is

1:23

a powerful way to give you a leg up on your own journey. To

1:23

help you gather those lessons and inspiration cue up an

1:30

episode of the Side Hustle Pro podcast hosted by Nicaila

1:30

Matthews Okome brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network

1:38

the audio destination for business professionals. Join host

1:38

Nicaila to learn actionable strategies to start small and

1:45

get going wherever and whoever you are, as she interviews

1:45

inspiring black women entrepreneurs, like Ashley Reynolds

1:52

and episode number 309 and a conversation about how Ashley

1:52

launched and grew the popular stationery brand Cloth and

1:57

Paper, a special one for all of you planner loving bosses

1:57

out there. Listen to Side Hustle Pro wherever you get your

2:06

podcasts. Shawanda Mason is an entrepreneur and food writer. In 2010,

2:10

she created the food inspired lifestyle site Eat, Drink,

2:17

Frolic, and in 2014 she co founded the learning nonprofit

2:17

The Chattery and currently serves as creative director.

2:25

Jennifer Holder is operations director and co founder of The

2:25

Chattery and coming from a family of teachers Jennifer's

2:31

passion is to ensure that learning is available to everyone

2:31

regardless of income. She has worked in the nonprofit field

2:38

for 10 years previously working in the entertainment

2:38

industry and for city government. The Chattery is a

2:44

nonprofit learning collective located in Chattanooga,

2:44

Tennessee, that advocates for lifelong learning. All right,

2:52

welcome, Jennifer and Shawanda to Being Boss.

2:57

Hi. Thanks for having us.

3:00

I'm so glad to be chatting with you both for

3:00

a lot of reasons. One, Shawanda and I always have a ton of

3:06

fun together. Jennifer, you should join us sometime.

3:13

We do have a lot of fun.

3:15

Right? These are two local bosses. Shawanda

3:15

has actually been on the show before I pulled it up. That

3:21

was episode 202. Back in 2018.

3:25

Wow.

3:26

Yeah. Isn't that crazy? That kind of blew my

3:26

mind when I saw that. This is Jennifer's first time on the

3:33

show. But we all live in Chattanooga. So we know each other

3:33

and Shawanda and I liked to have brunch.

3:38

Very long brunches.

3:40

Very long brunches. But we're here to talk

3:40

today about a couple of a couple one thing in particular.

3:48

And if no one has been around since 2018. Let's start with

3:48

some intros. So Shawanda I'll start with you with a quick

3:57

intro. And then Jennifer feel free to follow her up.

4:01

Yeah, I'm Shawanda. I'm one of the

4:01

cofounders of The Chattery. And my official title outside of

4:08

co founder is creative director.

4:12

Nice. Nice. And Jennifer.

4:15

Yeah. So I'm Jennifer. I'm the other co

4:15

founder of the Chattery. And my official title is Operations

4:23

Manager. Nope. Operations Director.

4:29

We make them up.

4:31

They're hard to remember apparently. So

4:31

yeah. I actually just demoted myself. From director to

4:39

manager.

4:42

That's fine, too. That's totally fine, too.

4:42

Perfect. And and what is the Chattery?

4:48

Yeah, so we are a nonprofit based in

4:48

Chattanooga, Tennessee, who we've we focused on fun,

4:54

affordable and accessible learning experiences for adults.

4:54

And so what that means is, we host classes ranging from

5:04

cocktails and calligraphy, to financial planning, business

5:04

management, and anything in between.

5:12

Lovely, and today we're here to talk about a

5:12

topic that I'm really excited to dive into. But before we

5:18

get there, I feel like we have a really great opportunity

5:18

because this show was started by co founders, business

5:25

partners who came together to do a thing and it's not it

5:25

hasn't been super often that I've had the opportunity to

5:32

interview another pair of co founders together. So I'd love

5:32

to hear from Whoever wants to take the reins, how it is that

5:41

you two met and decided to start a nonprofit together?

5:46

Yeah, so I'll take the beginning of the

5:46

reins. So Shawanda and I met because she came to Chattanooga

5:54

to tour an apartment, and I was the person giving that tour.

5:54

And so we actually met, I was her property manager. And we

6:03

became friends. And I'll say before she does, she invited me

6:03

to a party to officially establish our friendship, and I did

6:11

not show up.

6:12

Wow, wow.

6:14

Wow, indeed.

6:16

I've said this before, and I'll say it

6:16

again. And I sincerely mean it. I don't know that we would

6:20

have started a business together if I had shown up that

6:20

night. So there's reasons. Yeah. And then we both separately

6:29

took entrepreneurship classes here in Chattanooga, basically

6:29

to I mean, we had ideas, obviously, but also to meet people.

6:39

And so we were trying to recount this the other day, right,

6:39

trying to like, yeah, a few months later, we were at

6:47

someone's house. And I was like, Hey, I have this idea. Do

6:47

you want to help me?

6:54

Yeah, it was, yeah, we took business

6:54

classes for different reasons, and also not together and

7:03

learned a lot on how to start a business and what you need.

7:03

And as Jennifer said, we were at a friend's house. And she

7:12

was like, Hey, I have this idea. Would you be interested in

7:12

like, figuring it out and talking to me about it. And so

7:19

that's sort of the genesis of the Chattery. We spent about a

7:19

year in planning mode and trying to figure out what our

7:26

model was going to be back and forth, nonprofit, for profit.

7:26

Yeah, and then launched our first class, March 2014.

7:36

Wow. So as you guys were going through that

7:36

year of planning, like, Did it start with that first

7:43

question, did it happen at some point along the way, where

7:43

you were like, Okay, we're actually doing this. And we're

7:50

doing it together? Like, you know what I mean? Like, was it

7:50

just like, kind of, like, ideating and fun? And then there

7:56

was a moment, or did it start that way? Or does it still not

7:56

feel real?

8:02

Yeah, so I think it was based off an idea

8:02

from Brooklyn, and called Brooklyn Brainery. And so when I

8:09

came back to Chattanooga, I was kind of seeking out trying

8:09

to figure out if something like this existed. And basically,

8:18

I told my idea to a co worker at the time. And she was like,

8:18

I don't, she actually said, feel like you're stuck. And you

8:27

need a partner or a few partners with this. So she actually

8:27

had introduced me to someone who's also one of the co

8:36

founders Liz Wells, who was who kind of helped us ideate a

8:36

little bit. And then as Shawanda and I's friendship

8:44

progressed I was like, oh, yeah, like, I really want her to

8:44

help. And like, be part of this too. So um, yeah, I think. I

8:53

don't know. It was kind of once Shawanfa was like, Alright,

8:53

I think I think we'll do it. I think it just started from me

9:02

asking.

9:03

Yeah, I think Jennifer and I have a

9:03

lot of similarities, which helped. But also, we are

9:11

different. And some of our like, what we like and what we

9:11

don't like. And I think that helps, you know, it helps to

9:17

have, like, at the core to have a lot of like the same

9:17

values and interests. But you know, as Jennifer said, her

9:27

title is operations manager, director. And I'm the creative

9:27

director. And it doesn't mean that I don't like operations,

9:35

or she doesn't like creative work. It just, we've found how

9:35

to succeed and stay in our lanes, kind of. And I think that

9:44

that's also been helpful in that, you know, in March, we're

9:44

celebrating our ninth year of being a business. And I think

9:52

knowing, being very sure of who we are individually, but

9:52

also together has helped us get to nine years.

9:58

Yeah. Oh, I love that. I think that the the

9:58

complementary nests of your skill sets, combined with the

10:08

sharing of values and probably like, work ethic is a little

10:08

bit of the secret sauce, or it is the recipe for the secret

10:19

sauce. Right, that makes partnerships like this work.

10:22

Yep, for sure. And we also try to I

10:22

mean, we're friends. I mean, obviously, I guess I don't

10:29

know. I guess not obviously, maybe there are business

10:29

partners who aren't like friends. But we try to like, make

10:36

time for like friendship and then there's time for business.

10:36

So it is difficult to separate the two. Because even when we

10:44

are hanging out on a friend basis, we're always like, Oh,

10:44

that'll be a good idea for the Chattery. But we try to like

10:50

make sure that we have friend time. And then we have

10:50

business time.

10:55

Yeah. Love that. Okay, then do you guys have

10:55

any advice for anyone who may be seeking a partner? And so

11:03

whether this is, you know, Jennifer, I actually love that

11:03

you said that someone recommended it to you as a way for you

11:09

to get unstuck very early in the process. But I think

11:09

there's also opportunities along the way to pick up a

11:16

partner, as you are growing and doing the thing. But do

11:16

either of you have any advice for someone who may be seeking

11:23

out a partner for whatever reason?

11:26

Yeah, I think being very, very clear

11:26

about what you want. Because I, you know, getting into a

11:35

partnership, I mean, we're in a relationship, we're in a

11:35

marriage. And so if you are not clear about what you want,

11:42

and clear about your expectations, I do think that the

11:42

relationship and the marriage can struggle, if not dissolve.

11:51

And so I think that's something that I value, and that I

11:51

think people if you if you want to bring in a second person,

12:01

you got to be really clear about what you want. And why

12:01

you're bringing on another person. Yeah.

12:09

Yeah, and mine, would be similar, similar

12:09

to what Shawanda said, but look slightly different. I think

12:16

you have to be honest, also, like in being clear. So it's

12:16

like, it's very similar. But also be honest, when you're

12:24

struggling with something or again, like, we've definitely

12:24

both separately been stuck on things before and talked it

12:32

out together, or honest, also, your personal life. Shawanda

12:32

and I both have had have given birth to children in the past

12:41

three years, so. And that changes everything. And I think

12:41

that's a big, that's a big thing is that you just have to be

12:49

honest with what's going on good and bad. I think that's the

12:49

only way that you can figure out a path forward.

12:56

Yeah.

12:57

All of that resonates. Through my own

12:57

experiences, like all those things are incredibly true for

13:03

my experience, as well. And I appreciate you guys sharing

13:03

that, especially considering how long you guys have been

13:08

working together. I mean, even you know, Kathleen and I were

13:08

together for six years, you guys have went way beyond that,

13:16

and physically together as well. You know, Kathleen and I

13:16

were are still remote, whereas you guys have the both the

13:24

opportunity and responsibility. And responsibility is not

13:24

really the word, but like you're actually in each other's

13:32

faces. Quite a lot.

13:37

The peer pressure.

13:43

Yeah, that resonates too.

13:47

I do think I do think what you said about

13:47

work ethic, too. You know, I didn't even think about that

13:51

until you said those words, which one and I do have very

13:51

similar work ethic, we take this, we take every single thing

13:57

that we do very seriously, and rely on each other to get it

13:57

done. But again, are honest, if we didn't get it done for

14:03

whatever reason, and and give each other grace. But I do

14:03

think you have to have a similar work ethic. I have a

14:09

similar work ethic took my husband too. And if I didn't, I

14:09

think I would murder him. So I'm sorry, I should say that

14:16

the other way around. He has a similar work ethic to me. I

14:16

am a central figure of the story. But yeah, he does. So

14:24

yeah.

14:25

Yeah, it's important. It's definitely

14:25

important stuff for all the relationships. And I think that

14:30

you guys, what you guys have built as well, is such a cool

14:30

thing. And I love that you both have done it together,

14:38

obviously in the city that we're all in and also just how

14:38

you've done it and why you've done it. Again, back when

14:45

Shawanda was on the show years ago, we talked about this,

14:45

but I think it was so long ago we can we can repeat and

14:51

it'll be fine. I'd love to hear a little bit more about why

14:51

you opened the Chattery like why that mission was so

14:59

important to you. And part of that too, you mentioned this

14:59

lightly a second ago is why it is that you chose a nonprofit

15:07

or not for profit over doing a for profit business.

15:12

Yeah, so I'll start with the why. When

15:12

I moved to Chattanooga it was 10 maybe almost 11 years ago,

15:21

I don't know what time is. So I think we all know that like

15:21

making friends as an adult can be difficult, especially if

15:29

you have already hit certain like milestones, you know,

15:29

you've already graduated college or whatever High School,

15:36

whatever it is, or you've already experienced your first job

15:36

like you've, you've already had those major firsts. And so

15:43

when you move to a new city, it's just, it's not the

15:43

easiest. And so I moved here from Atlanta, Jennifer's from

15:51

Tennessee, but had been gone for a few years and had

15:51

recently moved back to the area. And how do you make friends

15:58

as an adult, you start a business. No.

16:01

Kinda.

16:03

That's exactly what you do everyone.

16:04

It worked in our case, but yet, I

16:04

don't necessarily recommend that as the first tool that you

16:14

use. But we said this, The Chattery is based off of an idea

16:14

in Brooklyn called Brooklyn Brainery where they are learning

16:23

for the sake of learning. And we are lifelong learners. As

16:23

we mentioned, we both took entrepreneurialship classes. And

16:31

so what could we do that where we can learn from one

16:31

another, build community while we're doing it, but also

16:38

there's a social aspect to it. So yes, while you're coming

16:38

to a class, and you may be learning about calligraphy or

16:44

something, there is a social aspect, and we chances, chances

16:44

are, you're coming to a class alone, maybe you're bringing a

16:51

friend. But we design the classes so that you can meet

16:51

people, there's space to meet people before, during or after

16:59

class. And that was sort of the reason why we started the

16:59

Chattery was yes, we wanted to start a community and grow a

17:07

community where we can learn from other hobbyists or other

17:07

entrepreneurs. But also, let's make this fun so that people

17:14

can make friends, as adults. And that's what we've done. And

17:14

we love hearing stories, we hear stories all the time about

17:21

how people have met, like a best friend in a Chattery class.

17:21

And it keeps us going honestly, because you know, when

17:29

you're in when you're in it, it's hard when you're writing

17:29

grants, or when you're covering a class or whatever it is

17:35

that you're doing. It's not always fun. But then you hear

17:35

stories of people who have just met other friends, because

17:44

the class has given them the confidence, I guess, to say,

17:44

Hello. And so that's, that's my long answer of saying why we

17:53

created the Chattery.

17:55

Fun and friends, that's a short answer. Fun

17:55

and friends, which is, you know, as someone who also runs a

18:02

company that is all fun and friends, but like with a very,

18:02

very business sort of wedge, I totally get the the feels

18:12

that you get when you are, when you are creating these

18:12

experiences that really just help people connect to their

18:21

next their next bestie it is kind of everything.

18:25

Right? For sure.

18:27

I get that I do, Jennifer.

18:29

Your next bestie to start a business with.

18:31

Right. Well, that does happen quite often

18:31

around here. Then Jennifer, maybe you can speak to the

18:38

decision to do a nonprofit versus for profit.

18:43

Yes. So as Shawanda said, we went back and

18:43

forth, quite a bit, like trying to figure out all the

18:50

different ways that we could exist. And I think we

18:50

ultimately settled on nonprofit because we want, always want

19:01

our classes to be as affordable as possible. We want to have

19:01

free classes. And we want really want the public to be able

19:09

to take advantage of our classes, but we also value people's

19:09

time and value their talents, and one of the nature of that

19:17

teachers were being paid a reasonable rate. And the truth

19:17

is, if we tried to do these classes, and weren't able to

19:27

kind of supplement some of that income with grants or

19:27

donations, they'd be like triple or four times the cost. Or,

19:35

or alternatively Shawanda and I would literally have no

19:35

other life and we will be doing like six classes a night at

19:42

different places. So and which we still could, you know, you

19:42

never know. But but we that was kind of our our initial

19:50

thinking. And I think that it was a good decision for us. I

19:50

think it's it just depends on where people are. And we

20:01

definitely scoured just to make sure that what we were

20:01

creating did not exist. I think sometimes that's now called

20:07

all businesses but especially nonprofits sometimes as you

20:07

think you're filling a gap that is already being filled, but

20:12

maybe just not how you want to be filled. We definitely

20:12

looked around for our at our you know, quote unquote,

20:18

competition, but also to see if anybody was selling this

20:18

adult education space. And I will say at the time, the only

20:27

people that were was a local community college and within a

20:27

year of us being open, maybe two years of us being open,

20:34

they stopped doing continuing education classes. So then no

20:34

one was filling that gap. Yeah, yeah. Also, long answer. But

20:43

there you go. That's where we are.

20:45

No, I think it's great. It's so good to hear

20:45

the the thought process behind making decisions like that, I

20:52

think that's, it's a really powerful way for people to see

20:52

the options that lay ahead of them. Because I think a lot of

21:00

people would just think if we're going to start a business,

21:00

obviously, it's a for profit kind, and, you know, figure out

21:06

the business model in that way. But I love that you, you

21:06

came at it from both sides of which one is going to be the

21:11

best option. And you were able to find the option that

21:11

apparently has been the most sustainable, or at least a

21:18

sustainable way, moving forward for you. So I think that's

21:18

thank you for sharing that. And I think that, that gives us

21:25

a really great opening for sort of the topic that we're

21:25

talking about here today. And I think that everyone hearing

21:33

how you came together and why and how you started the

21:33

Chattery is important for understanding how it is that the

21:39

two of you can lend to this conversation. I'm very excited

21:39

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at hubspot.com/beingboss. In this topic of free, what that means how people can take

22:47

advantage of it both as you know a provider and a consumer,

22:56

all of those things. So as a nonprofit, offering free stuff

22:56

to your community is obviously been a really important part

23:03

of not only your mission, but your model, you actually built

23:03

it into how it is that you're doing things. So how does free

23:10

at this moment play a part in what it is that you all are

23:10

doing?

23:15

Yeah, so free is still a pretty

23:15

important part of what we do. And providing content and

23:23

classes, we try to make sure we do a couple of free things a

23:23

month, whether it's an event or some type of workshop.

23:32

Because we do understand that while yes, we are nonprofit,

23:32

we do still have business bills to pay. And so we can't do

23:41

everything for free, because we do have to pay rent and the

23:41

electricity and internet and all these other basic business

23:48

needs. But we also recognize that everyone has the right to

23:48

learn. And that doesn't mean that they have the monetary

24:00

abilities to learn. And so what that means for us is

24:00

offering some free education, also offering some low cost

24:09

education opportunities as well. And so were we sort of, I

24:09

don't know, go teeter back and forth between knowing that we

24:18

do need to charge for certain classes. I mean, some classes

24:18

just have, you know, they have supplies that we have, we

24:24

can't offer them for free. But when we can and where we can

24:24

we do like for instance, you know, it's currently Black

24:33

History Month, and we have a couple of free events going on,

24:33

because we want people to come and celebrate with us. And so

24:42

we just try to make sure that just because we're offering

24:42

something free, it doesn't devalue the person who's teaching

24:49

it or us as individuals and an organization. And so there's

24:49

like a bit of a learning curve, not only with us, but also

24:58

with the community and trying to trying to get that message

24:58

across.

25:03

What I think is so interesting about this is

25:03

that you are laying out a model that you all are using for

25:12

your nonprofit and the free-ness of some of the things that

25:12

you're doing is obviously a huge part of what it is that you

25:21

do and a really integral or as a really integral part of

25:21

your model. What I find most interesting about this is that

25:31

it's very similar to for profit businesses and I mean think

25:31

about like the webinars or work shops or like the things

25:40

that for profit businesses think of as like giving away for

25:40

free, it's for this marketing purpose and therefore, isn't

25:49

really quite the same part of the model that you guys have

25:49

weighted it with. But it's still the same, you're just

25:58

thinking about it differently.

26:00

Right? Yeah, for sure.

26:02

That is fascinating to me, I'll have to wrap

26:02

my head around that.

26:08

There's some schools of thought that,

26:08

obviously, Shawanda and I did a little bit of research for

26:14

this as well to give you that we were talking about, but

26:14

there are some, there's an interesting thoughts of, if I

26:20

give you this free thing, you will come back to me. And I

26:20

think especially the internet has made that more of a thing.

26:32

I know, multiple mailing lists that you can sign up for even

26:32

some of our own teachers mailing lists, that they will send

26:40

you a free guide, or workbook or whatever, as long as you

26:40

sign up for their email list, in the hopes that you will

26:47

then buy something else and I think, you know, it is it is

26:47

very much in our culture. Now, especially to do that. And I

26:59

think even though that's not tangible, really as a product.

26:59

It is, as you were saying it's a little different when it's

27:09

a class, I don't know, I don't know how to explain that,

27:09

actually. Because I also think like you said, webinars, but

27:18

webinars can be recorded, and then just reused over and over

27:18

again, too. So. But when it's actually somebody's time, and

27:23

you're supposed to come in person and sit in front of them

27:23

and listen to something, it feels a little different, I

27:29

guess.

27:29

Yeah, it feels there's definitely a

27:29

difference of purpose, like what you're saying there around,

27:34

Right.

27:34

That you guys seem to have held on to and

27:34

this nonprofit, and more mission drive what is it like a tax

27:36

you know, for profit businesses are giving things away for

27:36

free, because they want you to come back like they're, they

27:44

do want something from you. Whereas your model is one where

27:44

giving the free is literally just giving the free, it is for

27:52

the purpose of you learning and experiencing and meeting and

27:52

that's it. And if you achieve that, then high five, mission

28:01

accomplished. Whereas when you're thinking about that purely

28:01

for marketing purposes, for people to come back, and then

28:09

you know, pay or do or whatever, then you've sort of lost,

28:09

you've lost the mission, and one part of your business model.

28:32

designation? Right, it's kind of like, that's really the

28:32

biggest difference here is how it is that you file taxes.

28:39

I will say too it is it's funny. And I

28:39

realize now that's what you were saying. It's funny because

28:50

we do a program every year called Arts for Older Adults. And

28:50

someone this year, we do it every year, we do like 20 Plus

28:59

classes for free. For anyone who's 65 and older. And someone

28:59

this year said, this is just great marketing. This a great

29:08

marketing idea for you. And I can't even tell you how fast I

29:08

think I like sprained my neck turning to her. And I was

29:15

like, absolutely not. And she looked at me and I said,

29:15

absolutely not. This is not marketing. And everyone else

29:23

stopped and looked at me. And I said, I want to be clear, we

29:23

believe in this. We are providing this to you because we

29:28

want you to learn. And we value this education, we value

29:28

your time and we value your brains and we just want to make

29:35

your life better. And everybody was like, okay, all right.

29:35

Got it. I mean, you can totally come back. It's not like

29:43

that. I'm just saying, you know, but I had never ever once

29:43

thought about not once have I ever thought of it that way.

29:49

Yeah.

29:52

On the, you know, I don't know,

29:52

beneath, under under, like beneath all of this. Could it be

30:00

used as marketing? Well, sure. However, throughout the nine

30:00

years that the Chattery has been around, we always come back

30:10

to the mission that we worked really hard to come to write.

30:10

And if it doesn't help us get closer to that mission, we

30:18

don't do it. If it feels like it's going to take every bit

30:18

of our soul or make us upset at one another or it's just

30:30

it's taking us too long to come up with a certain program or

30:30

an idea we just abandon it and that's okay. I think that's

30:37

something that business owners have to be comfortable with

30:37

is just like abandoning an idea. I mean, we've dropped a lot

30:45

of ideas, great ideas that I think, I mean, we come up with

30:45

really good ideas. But sometimes, if it's not really mission

30:52

centered, or it's just gonna take a lot of resources, not

30:52

just monetary resource resources, but a lot of our time, we

31:01

just say no, or maybe we revisit it in a year. And it might

31:01

be, you know, a better a better fit at that time. But I

31:09

think people have to get really comfortable with, like, just

31:09

letting it go. And Jennifer and I are really good at that.

31:17

We're like, you know what, this, this ain't gonna work.

31:17

Let's just keep it moving and figure it out another time.

31:22

We'll add it to the Google spreadsheet that

31:22

we have.

31:24

We literally have a spreadsheet and

31:24

that works.

31:30

Abandoned ideas.

31:34

Where ideas go to die.

31:35

Yeah.

31:36

Yeah.

31:38

And sometimes they come back to life.

31:41

Yeah, they do.

31:42

Sometimes they just need the right time. No,

31:42

I think this is this is such an a great mindset shift, like

31:51

holding space for an interview. But I'm probably going to

31:51

come back and listen to this later. And just let my mind be

31:55

fully blown. Because I feel like I need to like listen and

31:55

pause and like, chill with some of this before moving

32:02

forward. So if anyone is feeling the need to do that, please

32:02

do so. Because what, what I think is really great. The

32:09

mindset shift that I'm seeing here, between how you guys are

32:09

doing it as a, like, under this nonprofit mindset, which

32:16

does not mean not making money, like for anyone who.

32:19

Exactly.

32:20

Let's be clear.

32:22

Yeah.

32:24

Do you think that we volunteer 60 hours?

32:30

You think that this space is free? No it is

32:30

not. Capitalism still exists, y'all. So anyway,

32:30

Like, no. I am very glad that you said that. But

32:41

like, I think that I think nonprofit, like the word the

32:48

phrase has, like a branding problem. And like, in and of

32:48

itself, like, it appears that like, okay, you're just not

32:56

going to make money forever. And so I'm, I'm glad that you

32:56

said that. Because I think that's part of what Jennifer and

33:02

I have sort of been doing is just sort of like teaching

33:02

people what a nonprofit actually is. And that it doesn't

33:11

mean that like, we don't have to pay, like I said earlier,

33:11

like, we still got to pay rent here. We have to like pay for

33:18

things. So yeah, we have to have some type of cash to pay

33:18

for things.

33:23

And nonprofits tried to do a rebranding

33:23

sort of and, and call their money making side social

33:35

enterprises. Yeah, that's so there's like some nonprofits

33:35

that own Blimpies, for example, like they own a franchise of

33:42

Blimpies. And that's how they pay their employees. That's

33:42

the social enterprise side of their store. So it is it is an

33:50

interesting, but it's still, you know, tax designation, a

33:50

501C3. Yeah.

33:56

Yeah, that's the biggest difference. And

33:56

well, that's the biggest, like money side difference. I hope

34:03

everyone is also seeing this giant sort of mindset

34:03

difference between this very mission driven, and very, as

34:14

opposed to very profit driven and literally illustrated in

34:14

this idea of how it is that you see, creating things for

34:22

free for people. Like is it for the money? Or is it for the

34:22

mission, and it doesn't matter what tax designation you have

34:30

chosen for yourself, you can choose more or less either of

34:30

those in either situation. And I think that this is going to

34:37

resonate with the creative crowd so much because most of us

34:37

are so mission driven, but are in the tax designations that

34:44

teaches that profit is king. And so I love that it literally

34:44

just is this mindset shift of, you know, free for growth,

34:55

versus free for nurturing.

34:58

Yeah, I liked that Emily.

35:03

That one just came to me.

35:04

Let's get that on a shirt. Wait, that

35:04

probably sounds weird, nevermind, on a shirt. Free growth

35:11

vs. free for nurturing. Why is that on the shirt? Who's that

35:11

about?

35:14

Yep, for sure.

35:14

Yeah, no, no, not about you. Make that part

35:14

of your email signature, though. Yeah. That's where it

35:23

belongs. Okay, perfect. So we've talked about this sort of

35:23

internal mindset shift around free, which I think is very

35:25

So we've talked about this, like, internal

35:25

mindset shift. But there's still this public situation

35:35

fascinating. And I hope that bosses are feeling little

35:35

sparks of ideas of literally just how they can think about

35:46

the things that they're doing for free perhaps a little bit

35:46

differently. And probably in a way, that's going to feel

35:57

better, I would imagine, because I know a lot of people are,

35:57

you know, creating content, they're showing up for things.

36:09

And when it's being done for marketing sake, it can suck

36:09

your soul really quickly. But if you embrace that mindset

36:18

under, I don't want to say understanding, because I don't

36:18

think it's actually an understanding this, this public

36:20

shift around, you know, really it just being mission driven.

36:20

And whatever comes out of it is just, you know, happy extras

36:26

conception of what free is, and you mentioned this a little

36:26

bit. But what are you seeing happening in the free things

36:32

or whatever. I think that it's a lot easier to continue

36:32

doing anything because it feels better.

36:36

that you're offering, and the people who choose or choose

36:36

not to partake in them?

36:44

So if we're being honest here, I think

36:44

sometimes briefings are hit or miss. And that's something I

36:55

mean, it's always in the forefront of my mind and Jennifer's

36:55

mind of how can we either repurpose something or just change

37:05

the marketing around it. But, you know, people love free

37:05

things. And so they sign up for it, and it's awesome. But on

37:14

the flip side, they love free things, and they sign up for

37:14

them. And then they don't show up, because it's free. They

37:22

haven't invested anything. And that's sort of where we are.

37:22

Now as business owners is dissecting like, what that means

37:34

for our audience, like why, like, we understand even with

37:34

the paid things that sometimes things come up, and you can't

37:41

come excluding those folks. Why do we sign up for free

37:41

things, and not just a free event or an actual free workshop

37:51

where you will walk away, either with something tangible or

37:51

some, you know, a life lesson? Why do we sign up for things

37:59

and then just forget about it? And I think what we have to

37:59

do is sort of like, let people know, and I feel like we're

38:09

in a weird space currently, we have to be gentle with

38:09

everybody. So how do we like gently tell people that there

38:17

are people behind this free class and not just me and

38:17

Jennifer, but if there's an instructor involved, they may be

38:25

donating their time? And so how do we shift people's

38:25

mindsets to that this is free to you. But it is not free to

38:36

the people behind the scenes. And I think the first step is

38:36

like people have to care about the people behind the scenes.

38:41

Like it's a whole snowball thing. And I think there are

38:41

folks in the world and in our audience that do understand

38:49

that, but because we don't, we haven't always valued

38:49

people's time, you certainly aren't going to value a free

38:59

thing. But we have, we're not quite ready to abandon that

38:59

idea, because it is part of our mission. And we do have

39:06

folks that will support us whether it's free, or there's a

39:06

cost. But it's just it's a slow learning process to let

39:16

people know that free. It's free monetarily, but it is not

39:16

free. timewise. And so getting people to care is the hill

39:29

that we're currently on.

39:31

Yeah, we recently had a class with two

39:31

teachers, not one, but two, and we had 20 people sign up.

39:39

And no one came. It was a free class not a single person

39:39

came, I did get an email from one person that was two

39:47

tickets that said they couldn't make it due to a death but

39:47

otherwise didn't hear from anyone else at all, not even

39:55

after. And I just you know, I sat there with teachers and I

39:55

was like, I'm sorry. You came all this way. And they're

40:06

like, what's not your fault, but it's just like a moment of

40:06

Cool, cool. Cool. So then the next one, we charge $10. And

40:13

we have less signup. But everyone showed.

40:15

Right, exactly.

40:17

Fascinating. Like we don't want to charge.

40:17

But this is this is also this has had been for you we're

40:24

offering it monthly. And we often had issues with people not

40:24

showing but they were fine. I mean, they were fine with it,

40:30

but when they move but when no one shows it's like well,

40:30

we're just gonna change this up.

40:35

And I think if I can add to what

40:35

Jennifer internally to we've sort of rethought how to do

40:46

free classes, not all of them. I want to, you know, not not

40:46

all of them. But we, yes, we are a nonprofit, but we put our

40:54

business hats on. And we have gotten companies to sponsor

40:54

classes so that it's still free or low cost for the student.

41:05

But on the back end, we are also being compensated for our

41:05

time. And the business likes that because they're getting a

41:13

chance to get in front of people and not sell to them. This

41:13

isn't like, I am an Amway or Tupperware like pitch, but

41:20

like, actually get in front of students who want to learn

41:20

from a representative from this company on said subject. And

41:29

it's becoming an evergreen way for companies to use their

41:29

sponsorship dollars with a nonprofit. And also, we're

41:38

fulfilling our mission of providing a class for them. And so

41:38

we've sort of started to rethink that. And that's something

41:46

that we're growing this year, and I'm excited about that.

41:46

But we're just sort of rethinking how we present free

41:54

classes. And sometimes when you add, you know, sponsored by

41:54

whoever people like, Oh, now that companies involved, that's

42:02

cool. I'm gonna come to that. I don't know what it is about

42:02

the psychology of us. But that's working.

42:09

And I will say to you, though, if no one

42:09

shows up at all, we don't get those sponsorship dollars.

42:18

Like, you know, the two folks that were doing that class?

42:18

Yeah, I didn't, I didn't charge them. Because no one came.

42:26

Yeah. And after didn't give them you know, any other

42:26

information or anything like that. But yeah, I mean, that

42:32

does still affect our our bottom line. Yeah. But it is, it

42:32

is fascinating. Like, I don't know, if people like and

42:41

definitely like, we have, like Shawanda said, our audience,

42:41

we I get emails quite often, as you know, of people that

42:49

paid or didn't pay and just said like, Please apologize to

42:49

the teacher, I can't make it because of X reason, and aren't

42:55

even necessarily asking for a refund. They just wanted to

42:55

apologize for the teacher for their time. That has happened.

43:04

I said often. It doesn't happen that often. I'll be honest,

43:04

I shouldn't said often. But yeah, I'm just curious about

43:11

everyone else's thinking. It is kind of an interesting

43:11

thing, because I think too. And I'm like this too,

43:19

sometimes. So if I haven't actually committed to something,

43:19

if I'm softly committed, and it's raining, probably not

43:27

going to go. But on the flip side of that, if I've softly

43:27

committed and it's nice outside, also might not go but if I

43:35

fully committed, like I sat there, and I did an Eventbrite

43:35

ticket, or whatever it is, I'm going I don't care. Rain,

43:42

shine, whatever. Yeah, it's just it's a different type of

43:42

commitment. I don't know. There's just a whole process to do

43:50

that.

43:51

Yeah.

43:52

No, this is this is something that I'm

43:52

hearing across the board is something we experience here at

43:57

Being Boss as well, you know, we have a free community that

43:57

is free, because so many people wanted it to be free,

44:05

refused to pay for the thing. And also, but also very

44:05

mission driven on this side of things of like, Being Boss

44:12

exists to, you know, well, it didn't start this way. But

44:12

very quickly, it turned into a mission for bringing bosses

44:21

together for creating relationships like yours, and like

44:21

mine and Kathleen, so that we could all like, do business

44:27

together. So very mission driven. And you know, we get asked

44:27

for things, we do the things and no one shows up. And it's

44:34

something where we have other things that are paid if people

44:34

pay they do show up and but even if they're wanting the

44:41

things they're wanting them for free. It is does not mean

44:41

that anyone's going to show up for the thing. And I think

44:48

that's, it's funny, I wonder if like, has capitalism like

44:48

ruined the value of free. We can't value something unless we

44:58

are definitely paying for it. And I think there is some

44:58

opportunity for everyone to sort of rethink their own own,

45:07

you know, mindsets around free and around supporting people

45:07

who are supporting you with free things. And what that means

45:16

for I don't know even the things that that we value and pay

45:16

money for. There's opportunities for huge shifts. If we can

45:26

learn to sort of reorganize value.

45:33

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46:43

That's exactly it. I think we have to

46:43

like, think about what our relationship is, or our mindset

46:50

is around when we pay for something, whether it's $10 or

46:50

$100. Versus if it's free, like what? Why does our mind

47:01

shift so much? Or like why does our energy shift? Like all

47:01

the things and even I mean, that's something I'm thinking

47:07

about for myself? Like why? Why does it change? Like what's

47:07

happening? What am I not valuing? Or so it's a whole it's a

47:17

whole thing that we have to all think about.

47:20

Yeah, and I even think, you know, if we know

47:20

if we're going into a recession, if we're in a recession,

47:24

who even knows, this is the time when we have more of a

47:24

responsibility to see what things we have available to us

47:32

for free and all the many ways that we do whether it's, you

47:32

know, resources or experiences or you know, whatever it may

47:39

be, and find, refind the value. And those things I think we

47:39

have, this is the time to do that. Or, you know, feel free

47:50

to go pay your six bucks for butter. The butter really gets

47:50

me everybody. The butter really gets me.

48:00

Yeah, I feel you.

48:02

Love it. Okay, then. I would love to hear

48:02

from you two. If if you have any thoughts on how it is that

48:09

that folks should, that consumers maybe have the opportunity

48:09

to shift their mindset around free offerings? Because I feel

48:21

like that's just as much as we should probably think more

48:21

free stuff being mission driven on the business owner side.

48:30

I think from the consumer side, there's probably even more

48:30

of an opportunity.

48:35

Yeah, I think, yeah, I definitely

48:35

think that for consumers, even if it's like a huge

48:43

corporation, and they're offering you something free,

48:43

someone still had to design said workbook, or webinar or

48:50

whatever it is. And I think once we start realizing that

48:50

there are people behind every free thing that you get, even

48:59

you know, when you used to go to the mall in the 90s, and

48:59

like the free perfume samples will share, they're free for

49:05

us, but like there's still a person there, squirting you

49:05

with perfume when you walk by or handing you samples. And I

49:12

think we have to like go back to that old school mentality

49:12

where it's like, there's still someone in their perfume

49:18

section like designing whatever it is that you're giving

49:18

away for free, whether it's a two person nonprofit like us,

49:24

or whether you're a part of the big corporation, we have to

49:24

start I think at that level, we're all on the same playing

49:31

field in the sense that there's still someone designing it

49:31

or teaching it, whatever it is. And I think the moment

49:39

consumers realize that, that this free product was still

49:39

made by someone, then we can have like a further

49:47

conversation about the value of free or the not so valuable

49:47

concept of free.

49:55

It's interesting too, because, you know, I

49:55

think Jennifer, you brought up commitments earlier and I

50:01

also think about you know, almost the inundation that we all

50:01

experience of free these days as well. Like you walk into

50:09

Sephora or wherever and it's one perfume, it's gonna be like

50:09

four.

50:14

Yeah.

50:17

Right or, you know, when it comes to, you

50:17

know, options and classes you see there are four you're

50:24

gonna sign it for all four of them because they're all free

50:24

of course you're going to and then you actually can only

50:28

make one of them if that or you know, even think online

50:28

content. Let's say you have 47 blog posts at your disposal

50:36

here, and you end up not reading a single one of them,

50:36

whatever it may be, I think there's also an opportunity. And

50:44

it's not going to be easy because complete inundation of

50:44

being significantly more intentional with your commitments

50:51

in general, and actually showing up in the places where you

50:51

intentionally set those commitments so that you can get the

50:59

value of the free that you are most interested in taking

50:59

part in.

51:05

Yep, I think that's exactly it to,

51:05

like, consumers have to also value themselves.

51:12

Right.

51:14

And until they do, you know, I don't

51:14

know that any change will happen. But it's everyone, we all

51:22

have a responsibility to value ourselves and be more

51:22

intentional about where we spend our time. And if you're

51:29

gonna sit, and like Jennifer said, fill out the Eventbrite

51:29

thing, you put in your email address, how many tickets, like

51:36

it's all these things that you're committing to, they're

51:36

gonna send you emails to remind you, it's like that, you

51:41

know, granted, it may have only taken you three minutes to

51:41

do it. But like, you could also make a cup of coffee in

51:46

three minutes instead of filling out a ticket for an event

51:46

that you're never going to show up to. So I think we have

51:52

to, like reprioritize to like what's important to us. And me

51:52

included. I think we're all trying to figure out, I don't

52:02

know, it's been better. I don't know having better, better

52:02

intentions on how we want to spend our time.

52:09

Right? That's something this past weekend,

52:09

one of my friends was within spitting distance. I mean, they

52:18

were like two hours away. But they actually live in LA. And

52:18

Walter and I went back and forth of like, whether or not to

52:26

surprise her on Sunday. And like, whether we my husband,

52:26

Walter, like, if we would take our one year old with us, if

52:31

they just see me, or just him? Or should we go at all. And

52:31

then ultimately, we decided to go because I've been thinking

52:37

a lot about time, and my time and how I want to spend my

52:37

life and do I want to spend it at home being like, Oh, I

52:44

wish we had gone or don't want to spend it, you know,

52:44

driving five hours round trip to see my friends for a few

52:51

hours, you know, and so I'm trying to also reprioritize that

52:51

personally, as Shawanda was saying to about, like, it's

53:01

helping us to look at how we spend our time. And now I'm

53:01

just thinking of all the little things like all the times

53:07

that I'm like, Well, why did I not go because it was

53:07

raining. That's my friend. You know, life is short, things

53:16

like that. But I do think I do think you know, how your own

53:16

value exactly what Shawanda said, it's your own value, like

53:25

what do you value. And that'll help you I feel like be a

53:25

more empathetic person. If you can understand what you

53:33

value, you would also understand what other people value and

53:33

appreciate their time more. It's a full circle thing. It's

53:40

gonna take a lot of time and talent and patience, though, to

53:40

get there.

53:50

No. Fascinating. I know it is talent, too.

53:50

It's the experience. It's, you know, everything you've put

53:55

into being in that place in that moment. I think this is all

53:55

incredibly fascinating to me, because, like I said, I feel

54:05

like we've all experienced this in our own ways. I also just

54:05

want to like, I feel like we should just do all I feel like

54:11

I did a little bit of a great fest around people who sign up

54:11

for friends and don't attend. And in general, I love the

54:19

Being Boss community, ton a ton, and lots of people show up

54:19

to things all the time, but like, sometimes less so.

54:25

For the Chattery, like we love and we're

54:25

not going to be like angry that you didn't come it's just

54:34

kind of disappointing for when we have when we've put in a

54:34

lot of energy. And especially like Shawanda said, we love to

54:43

be reminded of people making friends or learning something

54:43

or completely changing our lives, because we have these

54:49

moments where people don't show up. And so we have to have

54:49

that balance. And so it'd be great if people just let us

54:57

know why they didn't come.

55:01

Or just I yeah, we're just come be a part of

55:01

things in general. Because well, and I think a lot of it do

55:11

is we both on, you know, each side of the fence that we're

55:11

on value communities and value the missions and do the

55:21

things to provide the things in ways that are free. And then

55:21

there is like this, this return of energy that is needed to

55:32

keep doing them.

55:34

Right.

55:34

And so it just it is that full circle that

55:34

you were talking about earlier. And is something that I do

55:40

think it sounds like from our conversation here sort of has

55:40

to be tackled from both sides. I think there's so many

55:47

business owners putting out so much free stuff in this sort

55:47

of desire to get more people to return, right. So for

55:54

marketing, for profit, all of these things that the world is

55:54

inundated with all of this free stuff that the consumers

56:01

have a hard time actually committing to any of it. To make

56:01

use of, you know, those of us who are putting the free stuff

56:11

out there, it's a wild thing.

56:14

I think too when there's so much free

56:14

things, you it makes it difficult for consumers to figure

56:20

out what's actually valuable out of the free things. So

56:20

because there's so much that's why I think a few years ago,

56:29

we were like, Okay, we're just going to do X amount of free

56:29

something a month, because we don't want to have free stuff

56:38

every night. Because then people are like, well, whatever.

56:38

Like they're always offering something free, like I can just

56:42

sign up or not show up or come the next week. And I think

56:42

there's still an importance of offering free things so that

56:49

you give people access to your community. But you also open

56:49

it up to folks who can't pay for it. But I think by limiting

56:58

how much we do, you can value the free stuff. But it's like

56:58

getting people on board to understand that there's value.

57:07

It's like a rabbit hole, or hamster wheel.

57:15

You know what, it's absolutely fascinating

57:15

in the past nine years of what we've done, the free classes

57:22

are all classes to make someone personally get basically

57:22

more money. So which sounds interesting, like our financial

57:32

education classes, our homebuyer classes, our resume

57:32

building classes, our interview classes, interview skills

57:39

for getting a new job. They all anytime we have tried to

57:39

charge for those. Almost anytime that people don't sign up.

57:48

Or charged, you know, like $15 or higher. Yeah. People don't

57:48

people don't sign up. And I think it's interesting, it just

57:57

all goes back to that valuing yourself, like you just, you

57:57

can pay $10 to learn interview skills, because that's gonna

58:04

help you get a job. But, but people don't always want to do

58:04

that and maybe, and that could go back to maybe they can't

58:13

afford it because they're looking for a job. So don't get me

58:13

wrong.

58:16

But guess what? The Chattery also has

58:16

a scholarship fund. So you see a class that you want to

58:23

take, and it does cost money, you can submit an inquiry to

58:23

us to have have it paid for

58:29

We've had a ton of people fill it out and

58:29

no one's used. Like we've only we've had very few people

58:39

actually use it like I respond. And I'm like, here's your

58:39

code. You can do whatever you want. And maybe that goes back

58:44

to what Emily was saying that there's just too many options

58:44

at that point. Like I have to do the exact right thing.

58:56

Just use it. Just learn.

59:00

Well, this isn't such a nice chat with you

59:00

too. I think this has me thinking about a whole lot of

59:05

things and now it's in the boss's brains. So if anyone's

59:05

listening to this and you're like, I've got ideas shoot us

59:12

an email for sure. We'd love to hear them. Because I think

59:12

that this is I think this is a potential sort of evolution

59:21

for fixing some stuff in the world and I don't know what

59:21

exactly but it feels like an important shift we all need to

59:26

make. How about that?

59:27

Yeah, well I think of you. I think if you

59:27

value yourself and you value other people that can fix

59:32

pretty much everything.

59:35

Fact.

59:38

I just saw that Shawanda and I are still

59:38

trying to figure that out for ourselves. I'm trying to

59:49

figure it out.

59:53

Lovely. Okay, perfect. And I have a are

59:53

actually two more questions for you first, if people are

1:00:00

interested in the Chattery and what it is that you guys are

1:00:00

doing, how do they find you on the internets?

1:00:06

Yes, we are on the internet but

1:00:06

thechattery.org, chatter.org We're also on Facebook and

1:00:14

Instagram @thechattery

1:00:17

Wonderful and my last question for you

1:00:17

actually know before even that if you are a member of the

1:00:25

being boss clubhouse, you have chattery class access too. I

1:00:25

just want to throw that out there. So that is the paid

1:00:32

version of the being boss community where people show up to

1:00:32

stuff all the time because they're paying for it. And one of

1:00:41

the perks we have in there is, is that we have sort of a

1:00:41

fund with you guys so that bosses can sign up for in person

1:00:51

or online classes to come and take them. And sometimes

1:00:51

because it's free, they don't show up. I think is also a

1:00:58

thing because it's free for them, though. I'm paying for it.

1:01:06

The nice thing about online is that we

1:01:06

record it, so everyone watches it later, right?

1:01:12

Yes. Of course.

1:01:15

I'm gonna watch the kids cartoons and they

1:01:15

always pause. Like, it's supposed to be screaming, right?

1:01:24

Yeah. Yeah, bosses scream, right, please.

1:01:24

For sure. So if anyone is interested, or if you are already

1:01:33

a member of the clubhouse, and you did not know that was a

1:01:33

thing it is. And if you want to come take part of those as

1:01:40

part of what we do at being boss, you have access to that in

1:01:40

the being boss clubhouse, which is part of the community

1:01:49

beingboss.club/community. And my last question for you both

1:01:49

and one of you gets to hear this first. Jennifer, I'll let

1:01:58

you do it first. What makes you feel most boss these days?

1:02:02

Well, honestly, when I have time to be

1:02:02

boss. It makes me feel the most boss when I just have time

1:02:14

to get through my to do list or wash clothes or whatever it

1:02:14

is. But going back to time that makes me feel most boss.

1:02:22

Yeah. Nice. Shawanda you got the treat of

1:02:22

being able to think about for 15 seconds exactly. What's

1:02:30

making you feel most boss?

1:02:33

I think right now what's making me

1:02:33

feel most boss is the ability to be flexible. It's sort of

1:02:41

the same as Jennifer as far as time but I really do feel

1:02:41

sort of like a badass because if I need to start my day at

1:02:49

10 I can. If I need to, you know not work in the morning and

1:02:49

work at five o'clock because I want to I can and I think

1:02:58

just the flexibility of what this job offers is what makes

1:02:58

me feel the most boss to be completely honest. It's just

1:03:07

that.

1:03:08

Love it. Time or agency over time. I do

1:03:08

think is quite the perk that we all have.

1:03:16

It is. If I want to have a cocktail at

1:03:16

two o'clock, I can.

1:03:21

Right? Does that mean you're coming over for

1:03:21

a cocktail? Is that what's happening right now? Because I

1:03:26

love that. Yeah, okay, perfect. I'm walking distance to Milk

1:03:26

and Honey. Let's close down there. We can have what you want

1:03:34

margaritas, mimosas. All things around. Perfect. Cocktail

1:03:34

suicide. Maybe less so. Perfect. You do this has been such a

1:03:49

treat. Thank you so much for coming and having this chat

1:03:49

with me.

1:03:52

Thanks, Emily.

1:03:54

Thank you.

1:03:57

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1:03:57

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