0:00

Dear old work platform, it's not

0:02

you, it's us. Actually, it is

0:05

you. Endless onboarding? Constant IT bottlenecks?

0:07

We've had enough. We need a

0:09

platform that just gets us. And

0:12

to be honest, we've met someone

0:14

new. They're called monday.com. And it

0:16

was Love at First Onboarding. They're

0:19

beautiful dashboards. They're customizable workflows. Got

0:21

us floating on a digital cloud

0:23

nine. So no hard feelings, but

0:26

we're moving on. Monday. The first

0:28

work platform, you'll love to use. My

0:32

insights have been scraped out with an ice

0:34

cream scooper. What

0:36

fresh hell? Laughing

0:38

in the face of motherhood. I'm

0:40

here from 1842 to say

0:42

I'm in high dungeon. with

0:44

Margaret Aples and Amy

0:47

Wilson. It's like visiting

0:49

Shawshank. A podcast that

0:51

solves today's parenting dilemmas so

0:53

you don't have to. Please hold

0:55

my crying baby. Hello

1:01

everyone and welcome to What Fresh Hell?

1:03

Laughing in the Face of Motherhood. This

1:06

is Margaret. And this is Amy and

1:08

today we're talking about Mom Rage. We're

1:10

raging in the face of motherhood today. We're

1:12

not laughing. I mean, hopefully we'll be laughing

1:14

some, but we're also raging in the face

1:16

of motherhood. I was kind of surprised that

1:18

we haven't actually talked about this already. I

1:20

had to go check, but we haven't. I

1:22

mean, we haven't, we haven't, right? We haven't

1:25

episode level focused, but it's a thread that's

1:27

run through it. It's a good one. And

1:29

it's something that I see come up a

1:31

lot on the Facebook group, which is facebook.com

1:33

slash group slash what fresh Hellcast. And

1:35

I feel like there's a

1:37

lot of posting that is I

1:40

have made a terrible mistake in

1:42

my parenting by getting very, very

1:44

angry with my children and that people

1:46

feel a ton of shame and guilt

1:48

around that. Yes. And I think we

1:50

need to talk about it. And I'm

1:52

glad we're talking about it today. I

1:54

have had some pretty low moments with

1:56

mom rage myself. Right. We can relate.

1:58

I actually have a post from our Facebook group.

2:00

I'm not going to say the person's name, but I'm going

2:03

to read this post because it made me think that this

2:05

was a really good topic. This listener said,

2:07

how do you personally deal with the guilt when you

2:09

snap and have a bad moment as a mom?

2:11

I lost it and screamed at my two year old,

2:13

then told my husband to take her into the other room so

2:15

I could calm down. Good for you. She had been having

2:17

a tantrum and got rough with our seven month old and I

2:19

was afraid the baby was going to get hurt. She

2:22

sets the stage. I'm a stay at

2:24

home mom. It had been another

2:26

action packed day of constantly protecting the

2:28

baby from her rowdy, clumsy, bigger

2:30

sibling. Another day of not being

2:32

able to get anything done. I love

2:34

my two year old, but she's so

2:37

high energy. She's even higher intensity than

2:39

usual. I just went into red brain

2:41

because I'm so weary and frustrated. I

2:43

apologize to my two year old, but

2:45

now I feel awful. Seen,

2:47

heard, same -sees.

2:49

Right, right. And what's so really wonderful

2:52

about our Facebook group is that

2:54

immediately 40 women responded, been there, done

2:56

that, you're not a bad person,

2:58

you know, you got through this tomorrow's

3:00

another day. And I think that

3:02

that's a great place to start. But it's

3:04

also worth unpacking this and understanding why it

3:06

happens, I think. For sure. And I will share

3:08

two examples for my own life. I will say

3:10

for me, this has gotten a lot better.

3:12

Now that I can kind of talk to my

3:14

kids, do you feel like your mom rage

3:16

has settled down a little bit? Oh, for sure.

3:19

And there's reasons for that. I got reasons. Oh,

3:21

good. Yes. This gets easier as the kids

3:23

get older for a reason that I can explain

3:25

when we get to it. Yeah. So I had

3:27

three kids in four years, 18 months apart.

3:29

And I was 30, I was 41 by the

3:31

time my last one was born. I was

3:33

tired and old and had three small children

3:35

and it was not great. And just getting

3:37

started. And I. Don't

3:40

consider myself a super rageful person. Like

3:42

I don't consider myself a person who

3:44

has a problem with their temper. That's

3:46

what I would say. Maybe that's not

3:48

entirely true because now that I say that out loud,

3:50

I'm like, I've had some fights in public with strangers.

3:53

Maybe it's like red brain, right? Like it's

3:55

not often, but when it happens, it's very

3:57

out of control. And it

3:59

was something I never anticipated about parenting.

4:01

Like I thought it would be like,

4:03

oh, it's frustrating. It's tiring. But

4:05

that thing of like I had somebody

4:07

in my house once when I had

4:09

the three little kids, I was snuggling

4:11

with one of the babies and they

4:13

said to me like, oh, can you

4:15

imagine ever like hurting a child? Like

4:17

the idea of like, oh, my God,

4:19

some people hurt their children. And I

4:21

was like, yes, I can. I can imagine

4:23

it. Like I have been at that

4:26

point several times since having children and

4:28

I have had I would say two

4:30

incidents one which was I had a

4:32

probably a two -year -old and they

4:34

were misbehaving in front of someone

4:36

who I was really embarrassed they

4:38

were misbehaving and I tugged them

4:40

by the wrist like get over

4:42

here and I dislocated their elbow

4:45

which is called nurse maid's elbow

4:47

because The idea is like

4:49

people pulling on kids. You can do it

4:51

by like that thing where you swing them

4:53

by the hands off the ground. But I

4:55

did it by tugging my child and I

4:57

had to go to the E .R. And then

4:59

later, I believe I've mentioned on the podcast,

5:01

figured out how to fix it by a YouTube video.

5:03

So because my first E .R. bill was like $600.

5:06

And then it once it happens, it keeps happening.

5:08

Retweets are not endorsements. We're not saying don't

5:10

go to the E .R. with nurse fades out, Bob.

5:12

But now I wouldn't say I mean, but

5:14

this it turns out you can

5:16

do it yourself. But I did dislocate

5:18

his elbow, tugging him, and another

5:20

time I was trying to separate my

5:23

two kids, very agitated, similarly like

5:25

one was hurting the other, and

5:27

I grabbed one of the kids by

5:29

the arm and later in the bath. I

5:31

was looking at him and he had

5:33

like my claw marks on him. You know,

5:35

like I had grabbed him so hard

5:37

that I had left not quite bruises but

5:39

like red marks clearly of my finger

5:41

claws on his arm. Mina Dubin is

5:43

writing a book about mom rage right

5:45

now and she's written some great

5:47

articles. I'm to link to them in

5:50

the show notes. She calls this

5:52

the not hitting gray area. Yes. And

5:54

there's something so deeply shameful about

5:56

like, I hurt my child who I

5:58

was put on this earth to protect.

6:00

And it's definitely something that I can talk about

6:02

now, whatever it is, 11 years later, and

6:04

like, oh, yeah, I just look at him like

6:06

it's all about tugging him, you know, because

6:08

I was so mad. At the time,

6:10

I felt, in fact, I think I probably

6:12

lied about what happened, you know? I think

6:14

I was like, I'm bringing a kid to

6:16

the ER with a dislocated arm that I

6:18

caused by my physical reaction to him. I

6:20

think I was probably like, I don't know

6:22

what happened. We were, I just pulled him

6:24

over really gently, you know? And I'm sure

6:26

they were like, sure, lady, but we know

6:28

what's really up. But it happened. It's

6:31

a scary feeling to be like, I hurt my

6:33

kid. Anne Lamott, who is, she

6:35

usually writes about, she's a novelist,

6:37

she writes about writing, she wrote one

6:39

essay about mom rage that was, you

6:41

know, constantly quitted all over

6:43

the place. But she says that mom

6:45

rage is a closely guarded secret, as

6:47

if the myth of maternal bliss is

6:49

so sacrosanct that we can't even admit

6:51

those feelings to ourselves. And it makes,

6:53

I mean, yes, I've been there, right?

6:56

When you dislocate your kid's arm, or

6:58

I can think of a time that

7:00

I made my kids just scream and

7:02

fear. And I didn't even realize what

7:04

they were seeing until I saw their

7:06

reaction. Then I was just, I was

7:08

undone by it. But yes, even admitting

7:10

to yourself that you got that angry is

7:12

terrifying. And then there's so much

7:14

shame because you think, yes, you were

7:16

the only person who was ever

7:19

done anything so horrible. Everyone else is

7:21

living on Instagram with the sunsetting

7:23

in the background as they put daisies

7:25

in their child's hair, right? Right,

7:27

that the shame is on top of

7:29

this, but it's pretty universal. And

7:32

I think it's good to acknowledge

7:34

that sometimes this is screaming because I

7:36

think of it as like, oh,

7:38

I lost control when I hit my kid

7:40

or I was physical with a

7:42

child. But yes, there have also been

7:44

times where I have just gone

7:46

to that place of like... Yeah, like

7:48

screaming in an out of control.

7:50

It's an out of control moment. I

7:52

think that's the key to it,

7:55

right? And so that can be screaming

7:57

or it can be physical that

7:59

I mean, listen, we have established on this

8:01

podcast, right? We're anti spanking

8:03

and we're anti. really hitting your

8:05

child in any context. Yes. And

8:07

we're anti -rage screaming at your kids.

8:09

Anti -scarring our kids. That's right.

8:11

Right. But also, we're having a

8:13

very frank conversation today about the

8:15

times that we have failed to

8:17

meet that mark ourselves. So I'm

8:19

not saying... Everybody hits their kids

8:21

sometimes and that's okay. Like we're

8:23

gonna try to be like, we

8:25

don't want to hit our kids,

8:27

so what's the solution? Right, right.

8:29

But I think the first step

8:31

is admitting that it is something that we

8:33

have a problem. Maybe not all the

8:35

time, but I don't know that there is

8:37

a mother who's never felt this. Can

8:40

I give you the two definitions of mom

8:42

rage that I have found that with

8:44

women who talk about this openly that I

8:46

thought were useful. So there's a woman

8:48

named Shreya Bakshi. She has an

8:50

Instagram account called Raising Sean and

8:52

it offers PPD support. And

8:54

she says that mom rage is

8:56

a real condition, but we often mistake

8:59

it for just anger. And she

9:01

says that mom rage is a result

9:03

of extreme burnout and lack of

9:05

self care. It's a unique

9:07

condition. that happens in

9:09

these unique conditions. I also

9:11

want to underline there that the

9:13

phrase self care and we have talked

9:15

about this. It's not like

9:17

you didn't get enough massages and

9:19

therefore this is your fault, you

9:22

know. And so I hear what

9:24

she's saying. Well, she

9:26

does a lot of work around that,

9:28

that self care, like it's nonsense that,

9:30

you know, she doesn't mean, you know,

9:32

a nice bath. She means self care

9:34

as in mental health, as in proper

9:36

sleep and nutrition. She's talking about that.

9:38

Self -care has become one of those buzzwords

9:40

where it feels like, oh, get

9:42

a massage and then you'll stop,

9:44

you know, raging at your children.

9:46

Not true. Right. And I also

9:48

think for me, at least my

9:50

experience was very based in not

9:52

in anger, but in anxiety. That

9:54

was like the driver of a

9:56

lot of my problems. And

9:59

so I think anger

10:01

and anxiety are kind of, they're

10:04

both results, right? The behavior

10:06

is the result of this. lack

10:08

of sleep, total overwhelm, 24

10:10

hours a day of

10:12

kids under your care who

10:15

you have no control over

10:17

really in some fundamental way

10:19

that you misunderstood before having children. That's

10:21

right. So there is a

10:23

psychologist named Dolph Zillman who,

10:26

not a mom, I think, I'm assuming

10:28

Dolph is a man who studies rage

10:30

and studies anger. And it's

10:32

a fun place to go to work every

10:34

day. My rage studies. He's a rage

10:36

expert and he talks about like how rage

10:38

builds on itself. And this is useful

10:40

because it helps us understand going back to

10:43

our listener who was like, it had

10:45

been a day, it had been a day

10:47

and a day. And then I scream

10:49

at my two year old over nothing. Okay.

10:51

Like there's a reason for that. And

10:53

here's why. Okay. So anger, Ralph Dilman. No,

10:55

sorry, Dolph Zillman. Not

10:57

Ralph Dilman. Dolph Zillman.

11:00

So sorry, Ralph Zillman, you have other research.

11:02

Dolph Zillman says that the anger, we

11:04

get angry when we have a perceived threat

11:06

to one's self -esteem or dignity, he's saying.

11:08

He's not just talking about mom rage,

11:10

he's talking about like rage, rage, okay? Correct.

11:12

A threat to my self -esteem, you're talking

11:14

to me, right? I was on the

11:16

phone with Amy yesterday and she had a,

11:18

uh, you talking to me moment and

11:20

you were walking through traffic and you got

11:22

into it with it. Exactly. Someone almost

11:24

hit her with your car and... Yeah, somebody

11:26

was trying to make a point by,

11:28

yeah, slowly rolling his car into me while I crossed

11:30

with the light at an intersection. Let me tell you,

11:32

my old man right Amy, I heard the New Yorker

11:34

come right out. She was giving this guy the what

11:37

for on the phone. And you know what really helped

11:39

me in that moment? It's really just like to unpack

11:41

this for a second. The woman next to

11:43

me, who I didn't know, you know, a stranger in the crosswalk,

11:45

she's like, He almost hit you like

11:47

her outrage. Right. She had your back. Yes.

11:49

She had my back. So then I knew

11:51

like I am righteous and I am going

11:53

to yell through this guy's driver window. No

11:55

problem. Yeah. I went there. But then you

11:57

have that. Okay. So you have this rage.

11:59

You have this trigger. Right. That releases

12:01

hormones. Yes. And also I

12:03

think key to that because I'm hearing

12:05

what you're saying. you're in total

12:07

isolation, right? Right. Oh, and a mom rage.

12:09

Yes. At home as a mom, you never

12:12

have that person being like, that kid really

12:14

is being a jerk. You're just in the

12:16

loan in the bubble with them. You're so

12:18

right. Right. That moment of like, he was

12:20

a jerk and I saw it completely. Right.

12:23

Never happens. Never happens. Right. And it diffused

12:25

it in a very... I mean, she wasn't trying

12:27

to defuse it. She was giving me a

12:29

like, you go, but it helped me. Right.

12:31

But you have a moment that's a trigger

12:33

that doesn't have any kind of release, right?

12:35

And you release disease hormones. I'm going back

12:37

to Dolph Zillman. Yes, Dolph. Sorry.

12:40

Get back to you, Dolph. Dr. Zillman. And

12:42

then you're turned up for what?

12:44

He says you have an excited

12:47

state of readiness that can last

12:49

for hours after a threat is

12:51

detected. This is probably... imperative.

12:53

Sure. You have a threat and

12:55

your threat awareness goes like

12:57

to 80. And that's why a

12:59

little thing and a little

13:01

thing and a little thing, which

13:03

he calls a sequence of

13:06

provocations, that's why you go ham

13:08

when your kid, you know,

13:10

drops his juice that night. Right.

13:13

Because there's a rage it's cumulative

13:15

and so a hundred little things can

13:17

turn into then it explodes and

13:19

you do have a completely disproportionate reaction

13:21

to something and you want to strangle

13:23

yourself You're so upset, but it's

13:25

human and it's biological. That's right And

13:27

the story my god, it's when

13:29

you said spilling the juice at probably

13:31

an episode of family I mean

13:33

I'm coming in with a lot of

13:35

old deluxe alerts to brace yourself

13:37

It was like family ties or like

13:39

an after -school special or something, but

13:41

it was like the kid. Oh, I

13:43

think it might have been full house. The kid

13:45

was getting beaten up by his mom. You know,

13:47

he was basically an abused child. And

13:50

the triggering incident was

13:52

him spilling his juice. And it

13:54

was like, oh, the mom

13:56

is just a completely outrageous monster

13:58

because over a simple thing, like

14:00

spilling the juice, she's

14:03

hitting her kid, right? I'm

14:05

now going to argue on

14:07

behalf of the abusive mom from

14:09

family ties or perhaps full

14:11

house. But You're not actually seeing

14:13

the full story. Like she's

14:15

not just an evil person who

14:17

loves hitting kids. She's a

14:19

person having tremendous anger activation that

14:22

she does not know how

14:24

to channel. And so like, hey,

14:26

team abusive mom from full

14:28

house for a moment. Like, I

14:30

mean, we were told the story is like,

14:32

you know, this kid and it's just completely like

14:34

the mom's favorite pastime. But that's not the

14:36

story of how this actually works. Minna Dubin says

14:38

that we always when we tell these stories

14:40

say well you know I love my child to

14:42

the moon and back I would never I

14:45

would never and then I love my child we

14:47

have to say but and she says we

14:49

do that as if mother rage equals a lack

14:51

of love oh that's deep right

14:53

she hit me in the feels with that

14:55

one that's deep both of these can be

14:57

and we're not enabling mom rage where we're

14:59

not saying like, so don't feel bad next

15:01

time you do. We're going to try

15:03

to talk about, no, we're not like, hey, full

15:06

house mom, you're doing great. No, you're not, but

15:08

let's try to work it out. All right, let's

15:10

take a break. We'll be right back. The only

15:12

way to keep on top of what everyone in

15:14

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18:32

let's talk about all the reasons

18:35

that mom rage happens because there's a

18:37

lot of them. I've got a

18:39

few. Yes. But I think one of

18:41

the most obvious and

18:43

yet I think under appreciated is lack

18:45

of sleep. And you were talking about

18:47

before how, you know, I think this

18:49

is easier for me than it used

18:51

to be. Like, yes, it probably is.

18:53

It's definitely easier for me and it

18:55

is not. in small part due to

18:57

we are sleeping better than we used

18:59

to when our kids were little. Oh,

19:01

it's huge. I mean, I truly had

19:03

four years where I did never slept

19:05

properly. And then every once in

19:07

a while, I would sleep 10 hours and

19:09

I would wake up like, why don't I

19:12

feel better? It's because sleep is not a

19:14

bank. You can't repay the sleep debit by

19:16

sleeping more one day. You know, it doesn't

19:18

work that way. And I definitely remember at

19:20

some point, maybe when my

19:22

youngest was, you know, six

19:24

months old, starting to really sleep

19:27

consistently again. And it was

19:29

like... Dorothy entering Oz like I had

19:31

been in black and white for three or

19:33

four years and I was like seeing

19:35

colors for the first time. I mean, that's

19:37

right. You don't know how bad it

19:39

was until you're out. You don't know how

19:41

bad you feel when you're in it.

19:43

So there was a sleep and mood study

19:46

from mothers and babies that the University

19:48

of Victoria did a couple of years ago.

19:50

So they studied about 300 Canadian mothers. The

19:52

average age of the mom was 32

19:55

and the average age of the baby

19:57

was about eight months old. these mothers

19:59

were averaging six hours of sleep a

20:01

night, which doesn't sound terrible, right? But

20:03

it's a large study. That would have

20:05

been a night. No, for me, that's

20:07

terrible. If I dip under on six

20:09

hours of sleep, I am non -functional.

20:12

I mean, there were nights I was

20:14

getting 90 minutes of sleep, but right.

20:16

So six hours, even on six hours

20:18

of sleep a night. 70 % of the

20:20

women in the study said their baby

20:22

was getting up two and three times

20:24

a night. The average baby waking was

20:26

2 .4 times a night. So they're

20:29

getting six hours of sleep, but the

20:31

baby's up a couple of times. Yeah,

20:33

that's not real sleep. You're not deep

20:35

sleeping for six hours. No. And 31 %

20:37

of the mothers in the study, so

20:39

one in three said they had intense

20:41

anger. Tracks, they were feeling intense anger.

20:43

And so the conclusion was that postpartum

20:46

anger is so common because it's linked

20:48

with poor maternal sleep. And one of

20:50

the things that the mothers reported being

20:52

angry about, which I can remember this,

20:54

is fury that their kid is not

20:56

sleeping. Like that they're being awoken repeatedly

20:58

by this baby who won't sleep is

21:00

one of the things they're feeling most

21:03

rageful about because they're unable to control

21:05

it. It's just fascinating to me how

21:07

much we cling to the story of

21:09

like, these days are blissful, you

21:11

know? And I've said it before,

21:13

but I was just in LA again

21:15

with Amy. But before you

21:17

got there, I just, I drive past

21:20

the house we lived in when

21:22

my kids were little. And I always,

21:24

it's incredible to me how the

21:26

feeling I get is terror. Anger

21:28

and like doom when I stand

21:30

in front of that house. It's

21:32

not like this is where my

21:34

babies were born and I remember

21:36

rocking them in that corner in

21:38

the chair It's like visiting Shawshank.

21:40

I'm like, there's my prison cell

21:42

where I spent four really hard

21:44

years and listen I'm overstating it

21:46

a little bit because that was

21:48

not my only experience of it

21:50

But I do feel like that.

21:52

Oh my god, these blissful days

21:54

that was not my experience of

21:56

it. It was so hard and

21:58

so unrewarding and so tiring. And

22:01

physically, I was breastfeeding and I

22:03

was getting headbutted by the two year

22:05

old when I put on his,

22:07

I mean, it's such a hard job.

22:09

And it was not a good time

22:11

in my life. And then being

22:13

postpartum, there's the social isolation that comes

22:15

from that and the best of times.

22:17

I mean, you and I went

22:19

through this stage in. a non -pandemic reality,

22:21

right? Where it was just the

22:23

actual isolation. We, my baby who

22:26

wouldn't sleep an eye were totally isolated because

22:28

I really did have to try to

22:30

sleep when the baby slept because it might

22:32

only be 20 minutes, but that's as

22:34

long as he ever slept. So, you know

22:36

what I mean? We just, we lived

22:38

in this like dream state of like, let

22:40

me quickly doze off and then change

22:42

the diaper and then it was so isolating.

22:45

And the pandemic made that turn it

22:47

up to 11, right? I mean, it made

22:49

it a new normal for everybody. Yeah.

22:51

And it's isolating. People think isolation is being

22:53

alone, which it is. But isolation

22:55

is also that I would be sitting,

22:57

you know, we would have all the

22:59

family in for dinner or a baptism

23:01

or whatever it was. And

23:03

I would sit at the table with

23:05

like that tired sound playing in

23:07

my head and feeling like I had

23:09

been like my insides had been

23:12

like scraped out with an ice cream

23:14

scooper. And then everyone else

23:16

was like, Oh, my God, did you hear

23:18

about cousin Stacy? Oh, yeah, she's getting

23:20

married. They would be having like a completely

23:22

nice and normal meal. And

23:24

I would just feel like I am a

23:26

Martian who has been sat at a

23:28

table with like joyful people. I was

23:30

involved in a really bad accident once with

23:32

my then boyfriend, now husband. And.

23:36

It was a similar feeling of like the EMTs

23:38

who were loading him up in like a

23:40

very after very, very bad accident. We're like, oh,

23:42

did you see the game last night? Like,

23:44

oh, yeah, that was a while. They were talking

23:46

to each other. They were having a Tuesday. And

23:49

I was sitting on the side

23:51

of the road like, how is

23:53

anyone thinking about a baseball game

23:55

right now? Yeah, at a moment

23:57

like this. That's right. When my

23:59

guy is like bleeding possibly to

24:01

death, like on the road. And

24:03

that is. a parallel to how

24:05

I would feel at those dinners

24:07

sometimes. Like, who cares about cousin

24:09

Stacy? I'm dying over

24:11

here, you know? And so the isolation,

24:14

you may be surrounded by a lot of

24:16

people all the time and still feeling this

24:18

isolation. Yes. Because you're the only person having

24:20

your experience. That's right. And you're the only

24:22

one who can feed the baby and everybody's

24:24

going to give the baby back to you

24:26

and because you're not getting enough sleep. And

24:28

because there are, you know, hormonal imbalances that

24:30

happen. And I don't like to over focus

24:32

on those because I get angry when people

24:35

like, well, you know, she's just postpartum. No,

24:37

she's just overwhelmed. And can you give her

24:39

some help instead of saying, she's got the

24:41

baby blues? Like, I feel like it excuses

24:43

other people from stepping up, right? Like, oh,

24:45

she's just crying. She's the baby blues. No,

24:47

she's just crying because she's getting an average

24:49

of three hours of sleep a night. Can

24:51

you step up? But medically, chemically, there are

24:53

imbalances that cause the postpartum experience.

24:55

It's overwhelming for everyone and then

24:57

it just goes to another level if

25:00

you have postpartum anxiety or depression. Both

25:02

can be true. That's what I want to

25:04

say. Both can be true. Yeah. And then

25:06

I think... This is maybe my own axe

25:08

to grind is when you do ask for

25:10

help. I love it when you have an

25:12

axe to grind for a change for a

25:14

change. I thought I'd be, you know, what

25:17

I want to say in it. And my

25:19

druthers about something. What do you call that

25:21

in color? Hi, Duggin. I have a high.

25:23

I'm in high Duggin about something I think

25:25

is what I that was not what I

25:27

would have ever guessed. So I'm glad you

25:29

offered it. It would have taken me a

25:31

long time to get to high Duggin. I'm

25:33

here from 1842 to say I'm in high.

25:35

dungeon. Hey, he's in a hide dungeon. When

25:37

you ask for help, right? When you say

25:39

I'm overwhelmed, then you do get like patted

25:41

on the head instead of you ask for

25:43

help and you don't get it. And you're

25:45

told that you're thinking you need help is

25:47

a misperception of your own addled, you know,

25:49

mommy brain. And I will say, is

25:52

this correct? I'm going to say it anyway, because

25:54

I think it's true. It can be

25:56

hard to actually get help. Like, it's

25:59

a little bit You know, Amy and I run

26:01

a business now and sometimes I have the feeling

26:03

of like, I guess I'll just do it myself

26:05

because in the time it would take me to

26:07

explain to someone else. I think

26:10

early motherhood has a lot of

26:12

that and it's true. Like they

26:14

can't breastfeed for you. The baby

26:16

does want you like. I

26:18

think it can be difficult. I

26:20

think similarly to the isolation of

26:22

no one understands your experience, it's

26:25

like the kind of help you would need

26:27

is like someone helicoptering you to a tropical

26:29

island. I don't know, it feels so distant

26:31

sometimes. Cloning you. What would really help? Like

26:33

someone holding the baby for half an hour

26:35

is not helpful. Well, it could be, but

26:38

in my case, it was always, well, He's

26:40

crying. You must want his mother. Like, no,

26:42

he cries all the time. mean, I can

26:44

hold him and he'll still cry. Like, as

26:46

soon as there's a moment of discomfort, like,

26:48

oh, take him back, right? And I think

26:50

what we really need is the help of,

26:52

please don't hold my sleeping baby. Please hold

26:54

my crying baby. Please walk my screaming baby

26:56

around the neighborhood. Yeah, I guess that's true.

26:58

And I shouldn't put out there like, there's

27:00

nothing you can do to help. But I

27:02

definitely remember. having people visiting after

27:05

the baby who were like, oh, I'm just here

27:07

helping out with the baby. And I was like,

27:09

excuse me, you're doing what now? You

27:11

know, right? There might be some onesies

27:13

to fold at some point. But I think

27:15

people were trying to help. Like they

27:17

were probably like laundering and folding things. But

27:19

I was so deep underwater that it

27:21

was like you've basically like thrown a like

27:24

baby armband floaty into the water. And

27:26

I am like drowning under 50 foot waves.

27:28

Like I get that you think you're

27:30

helping, but it's not going that great. It's

27:32

frustrating. So it's a frustrating experience. And

27:34

then the rage can be sometimes I think

27:36

like we're not being heard like I'm

27:38

trying to tell you this is not going

27:40

well and so then we get rageful

27:42

because we have righteous anger but also because

27:44

like we need to be heard and

27:46

so sometimes you do have to turn it

27:48

up because you're not being heard yeah

27:50

and so I think I mean that makes

27:53

it sound like rage is a conscious

27:55

choice which I think when it's you know

27:57

when you're screaming at your kid it's

27:59

not but when you're screaming at your partner

28:01

who's not getting it, maybe it is.

28:03

I just think we're saying you have a

28:05

lot to be angry at when you've

28:07

got a bunch of small kids or one

28:09

small kid in the house. Yes. And

28:11

it tracks that you're angry. There's one other

28:13

factor that I wanted to touch on

28:15

about when mom rage can occur because it's

28:17

actually something in our Facebook group that

28:19

mentioned it and then the research it kept

28:21

coming out is having an audience. Like,

28:24

you would think that people who exhibit mom

28:26

rage ever would be much less likely

28:28

to do that when somebody else is around,

28:30

but it actually can be a trigger. That's

28:32

when I pulled my kid's arm

28:34

out of the socket. Yeah, and then

28:36

you're like, spanked my child

28:38

once because he had bitten another kid and

28:41

the mother is standing right there. And

28:43

in my mortification that she think that I

28:45

took it seriously enough, you know, like

28:47

I spanked my kid. Yeah. Performing. So yeah,

28:49

you're performing. And so Leslie, who's a

28:51

listener in our Facebook group, she was in

28:53

support of this listener who was talking

28:55

about her own mom rage. And she said

28:57

face timing is actually a trigger for

28:59

all of us in our house. It can

29:01

get my kids overly excited and stimulated.

29:03

And then I find that I'm on edge

29:06

because of the audience and their behavior. She

29:08

says my answer isn't that we avoid FaceTime,

29:10

but I've learned to keep it short and

29:12

be aware of how it's making me feel.

29:14

And as soon as my kids are getting

29:16

dysregulated, we make a quick exit. Yeah, it's

29:18

smart. Man, it's hard during those

29:21

days to be like, and also I'm

29:23

going to identify my triggers while I'm

29:25

not sleeping and miserable and like bleeding

29:27

from strange places and trying to breastfeed.

29:29

Like I'm also going to make a

29:31

list of my triggers. Like, yeah, breathing

29:33

is a trigger. Your husband's breathing is

29:35

a huge trigger. I mean, going back

29:37

to what the, what was his name?

29:39

Dolph. Dolph. Our buddy Dolph. No, the

29:41

series of provocations. Right. Like when you

29:43

are in the situation, literally everything is

29:45

a series of provocations and you are

29:47

going to. lose it, right? It's not

29:49

that you can prevent the provocation. Yeah,

29:52

I think that we've got it. We

29:54

know that mom rage is a problem.

29:56

We know why it happens. We've all

29:58

been there. And so going to turn

30:00

to some solutions when we come back.

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32:44

to mom yelling from the what

32:46

fresh help podcast the gritted

32:48

teeth I'm not yelling yell we

32:50

will talk about it when

32:52

we get home and away from

32:54

all these other people who

32:56

are looking at us in the

32:58

grocery store the yells your

33:00

mom used to yell and you

33:02

never thought you'd yell yell

33:04

because I said so that's why

33:06

The I'm not yelling, just

33:08

speaking very loud for emphasis yell.

33:10

These clothes are clean. Clean

33:13

clothes do not belong in the laundry.

33:15

Clothes that have been worn for less

33:17

than five minutes are clean. Clean!

33:20

The I'm just going to keep yelling

33:22

names until I get to yours

33:25

yell. Emma. Sophia. Catherine!

33:27

Oh, you, youngest daughter, Sydney! That's

33:29

right, you're in trouble. The

33:31

company's here, so I can't yell, but

33:33

you know this would be a yell if

33:35

it could be a yell -yell. Gosh,

33:37

honey, I'm surprised you don't

33:39

remember that I preferred that

33:41

you don't put your shoes

33:43

on the sofa. The

33:45

I've lost my train of thought yell. I need

33:47

everyone to get off their iPads. Dinner is in

33:49

five minutes. Don't come down until you finish your

33:51

homework. And it's lacrosse practice tonight, Thursday. Where's

33:54

my phone? The repeating yell.

33:56

Get your shoes. Get your shoes. We're

33:58

late. Get your shoes. You need shoes.

34:00

We're very late Come on. We're late.

34:02

Get your shoes. Shoes. Shoes. Get your

34:04

shoes. The I'm not going to curse

34:06

in front of my children yell. Fudgy

34:09

the whale. God. Silla. Damn breaking. Shazam.

34:11

Shazam at all. The things I never

34:13

thought I'd yell yell. Mom's underwear is

34:15

not a hat. Don't taunt that lizard.

34:17

You have to wear shoes outside when

34:19

it's snowing. Yes, every time. Your penis

34:21

should never be out during church. Amy,

34:28

a nation turns its lonely eyes to you

34:30

to solve mom rage for us. I have

34:32

some tips. Some of them are going be

34:34

like, well, that's hard. And that's true. Some

34:37

of these are easier said than done, but

34:39

they're all things that can help. Listen, losing

34:41

your temper as a mom. We're

34:44

not here to solve it for you. We're

34:46

gonna say solved it, but we're not expecting you

34:48

to never lose your temper. It's not realistic.

34:50

Nina Dubin, who is writing a book about mom

34:52

rage right now, and I think we should

34:54

probably have her on when it comes out next

34:56

year. Oh, that'll be great, yeah. She talks

34:58

about having a longer fuse, lengthening your fuse. So

35:00

I think that's maybe what these things are

35:02

for. We need to lengthen our fuse for the

35:04

good of everybody in our households, including ourselves. So

35:07

she says, for her, that

35:09

when she manages to make time to

35:11

exercise, make art and eat healthy food. Those

35:13

are the three things that work for her.

35:16

And that make art thing, like it's not

35:18

for everybody, right? Like not everybody has to

35:20

enjoy cooking or enjoy painting or enjoy long

35:22

runs in the park or enjoy writing a

35:24

novel. But if one of those things feeds

35:26

you, I am. I am a happier person

35:28

when I have done something creative than when

35:30

I haven't. It lengthens my fuse. I'm

35:34

having a little trouble with this advice. It

35:37

feels like a job. It feels hard. It's

35:39

not a job to go for a run if

35:41

you like to go for a run. It's

35:43

kind of like what Casey Davis was saying in

35:45

a couple weeks ago, like, have a kitchen

35:47

that looks nice at the end of the night.

35:49

If that feeds you, it makes you feel

35:51

good. If it fills you with stress, then who

35:53

says you need to have a neat kitchen?

35:55

I think you decide what fills you and then

35:57

you prioritize what fills you, but that requires

35:59

time, maybe money. Privilege,

36:01

right? That's a supportive partner. It requires a

36:03

lot of things that you may or may

36:05

not have. I heard advice that was much

36:07

more fitting to me when I was in

36:09

this phase, which was especially with a new

36:11

baby. Never worry about spending

36:13

time in bed like spend time in

36:15

bed whenever you want to and like I

36:17

developed a thing where you know We

36:19

would I would get in bed with like

36:21

the two -year -old would go in front

36:23

of the movie I would lay down with

36:25

a baby who I was breastfeeding We

36:27

called it snack and snooze so the baby

36:29

would just like breastfeed and then fall

36:31

asleep And we would both kind of sleep

36:34

older baby don't do this with a

36:36

newborn obviously for safe sleep stuff But

36:38

I liked the idea of like, it's

36:40

okay to rest whenever you want to. You

36:42

know, I would not with having like,

36:44

being really tired and having postpartum anxiety, I

36:46

would have strangled anyone who told me

36:48

to go for a run to exercise and

36:50

eat healthy. I was just like, this

36:52

isn't newborn postpartum advice. This is mom advice.

36:54

And you're right. When you're in the

36:56

postpartum state, we've just learned nobody's getting enough

36:58

sleep and that leads to anger. So

37:00

yeah, sleep more mom. That's the, that's the

37:02

medicine for mom rage when your baby

37:05

is six weeks old. Yeah and I had

37:07

it for three years you know like

37:09

whenever anyone was like what can I do

37:11

for you I'd be like I need

37:13

to sleep and I don't care take the

37:15

baby to the ER before waking me

37:17

up like do not wake me up if

37:19

the baby's you know crying just let

37:21

me sleep and I think knowing your ask

37:23

can be really helpful when people come

37:25

to you and say what can I do

37:27

to help and it might be like

37:29

Bring me dinner. That's a casserole that everyone

37:31

will eat. And like it might be

37:33

bring me a rotisserie chicken or bring me

37:35

a salad from sweet greens that nobody

37:37

else in my family would eat because I

37:39

don't want to have lasagna. Everybody brought

37:41

lasagna and I can't eat one more lasagna.

37:43

Like I think you can show up

37:46

for yourself, right? Bring me some turmeric tea.

37:48

Knowing what the answer is to how can I

37:50

help is good because your first answer is

37:52

going to be like, there's nothing you can do.

37:55

I'm exhausted. No one else can help with

37:57

the baby. have an answer to how can I

37:59

help? You know, to go for the other

38:01

side of what Minna Dubin was saying, make art,

38:03

do this, and you're like, well, who has

38:05

time to do that? She did say, and I

38:07

want to, there's a cortisol to what she

38:09

was saying that I think underlines what you were

38:11

saying, which is she's saying the things that

38:14

lengthen my fuse are eating healthy food and making

38:16

time to be creative. And she's like, I

38:18

don't say eating right, exercising. and

38:20

showering because those are basic health requirements.

38:22

Those aren't self -care. Those shouldn't make

38:24

the list of make a little

38:26

time for yourself by showering. We shouldn't

38:28

have to include that as special

38:30

self -care time. Right, right. You

38:32

want to go a step beyond. And I

38:34

will say that as, again, as things lengthen, I

38:37

now, I got up this morning. We have

38:39

a busy day of stuff we're doing for

38:41

the podcast. But I got up this morning.

38:43

I dropped my kid to school. I went

38:45

to the gym for an hour before I

38:47

started. And I know my day is going

38:49

to feel a lot better. I could not

38:51

have done that when my kids were little.

38:53

I just couldn't have done it. And so

38:55

also realize like you may be in a

38:57

season where what feels good to you is

38:59

like laying on the couch and eating Haagen

39:01

-Dazs vanilla ice cream, speaking from experience and

39:03

watching episodes of Real Housewives while you play

39:05

Candy Crush. Like it doesn't have to be

39:07

healthy choices. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. I'm

39:09

team like anything that soothes you go for

39:11

when you're in the trenches. Dolph

39:14

Zillman going back to him. Oh,

39:16

Dolph. back again he suggests i mean

39:18

this is maybe obvious but it's

39:20

useful so you have your sequence of

39:22

provocations right the reason i'm gonna

39:24

you know give my kid nurse maids

39:26

elbow at 8 p .m is because

39:28

my boss yelled at me at

39:30

noon right these things are related he

39:32

suggests that you at any point

39:34

if you can internally observe any

39:36

step along the way of your anger response,

39:38

you can interrupt it. Agree. I think that

39:40

is a good point. Ooh, I'm clenching my

39:42

fists after that guy, you know, tried to

39:44

run into me in the crosswalk because he

39:47

didn't like where I was standing, you know,

39:49

that you can recognize that and that woman

39:51

interrupting me to say like, he almost hit

39:53

you. And me being like, yeah, that interrupted

39:55

my response in a productive, positive way. And

39:57

it I didn't scream at my kids six

39:59

hours later because that guy made me mad

40:01

because it was interrupted. And I think that

40:03

this is key and something that I wish

40:05

I'd understood a little bit more when I

40:07

was in it. Like we

40:10

always say, garbage starts when it comes in

40:12

the door. It's garbage by when it

40:14

crosses your threshold. So later you're like, I

40:16

can't throw it away. It's like, bring

40:18

less in the door because then you're not

40:20

going to be overwhelmed with stuff and

40:22

have stuff to throw away. You.

40:25

Raging at your kid starts at 8

40:27

AM when your husband forgets to

40:29

take the trash out. Like, and

40:31

so it is, I think sometimes our

40:33

story becomes like, I've got to do

40:35

it all. I'm super mom, like all

40:37

the moms I know and all the

40:39

moms on Facebook. And so I'm just

40:41

going to absorb stuff all day. And

40:44

you have to change the story to

40:46

like, I have to stop absorbing things

40:48

because cumulatively that leads to mom rage,

40:50

which I want to stop. Yeah. So

40:52

you got to back these steps way,

40:54

way, way up. And you've got to

40:56

say, because I think sometimes it's like,

40:58

well, I've got to give up my sleep because that's what's

41:00

good for my kids. If you can

41:02

tell yourself the story of like, when

41:04

I don't sleep well, I'm much more

41:06

likely to rage at my kids physically

41:08

or verbally. Then getting more

41:11

sleep becomes much more of an

41:13

important priority. It has to happen. And

41:15

that's where I think the story needs to

41:17

change from I'm a good mom from taking everything

41:19

on to I know I'm a better mom

41:21

when I'm not at the end of my rope

41:24

because that's when bad things happen. Yeah. And

41:26

I will say from a really practical point of

41:28

view, and this is like a little vulnerable

41:30

and like, you know, I feel like that thing

41:32

of I don't want people to judge me

41:34

for when I say this, but I will. Having

41:37

had two physical interactions with my

41:39

kids that I was really not proud

41:41

of and really unhappy about, I

41:43

made a very simple rule for myself

41:45

that I do not make any physical contact

41:47

with my children when I am angry. I

41:50

keep a foot of space between us

41:52

when I am in a rage because

41:54

even if I go to put my

41:56

hand on my kid and say, I

41:58

want you to come away from your

42:00

brother, It's just a very

42:02

practical way to not get into physical

42:04

confrontations with my kids. I think that if

42:07

you allow yourself to say that, it's

42:09

the reason why like kids don't use birth

42:11

control because they don't want to admit

42:13

that they're going to get in a situation

42:15

where birth control would be needed. Right.

42:17

Right. We don't want our kids to know

42:19

about birth control because we don't want

42:21

them to be sexually active. Right. And I

42:23

think similarly, making a rule for

42:26

yourself that stops you from hitting your

42:28

kids admits you have to first admit to

42:30

yourself that you are the type of

42:32

person who could hit your kid. You could

42:34

ever be that person ever. Right. And

42:36

like, I had to do that. And it

42:38

was disappointing and frightful and shameful for

42:40

me to be like, I actually have to

42:43

make a rule to stop me from

42:45

hitting my kids because I could hit them.

42:47

And so for me, I know when I

42:49

feel that huge and I will say, our

42:52

original poster. I want to highlight

42:54

our original poster who said, I lost

42:56

it and screamed at my two

42:58

year old and then told my husband

43:00

to take her into the other

43:02

room so I could calm down. Like,

43:05

great job to

43:07

this listener because you're

43:09

admitting. I mean,

43:11

we jokingly were saying before like admitting you

43:13

have a problem is the first step. But

43:15

like if you. Cannot admit

43:17

to yourself. I am

43:19

capable of losing control with my kids.

43:21

I am capable of physically striking one of

43:24

my kids and I am capable of

43:26

yelling at one of my kids in

43:28

a way that is damaging to both of

43:30

us. You can't fix this problem. And

43:32

so you have to have a strategy.

43:35

Whenever I start to feel red brain, you

43:37

know when it happens to you. At

43:39

that moment, no matter what is going on,

43:41

as long as the kids are basically

43:43

and fundamentally safe, I'm going to walk away.

43:45

We also said another rule that, like,

43:47

no one is allowed to have a tantrum

43:49

on the first floor of their house.

43:51

Tantrums send them upstairs because as a kid

43:53

sat there tantruming, I would feel myself

43:55

getting more and more and more rageful. And

43:58

the fact of the matter is, like, if

44:00

they're upstairs screaming, my blood doesn't start to boil

44:02

in the same way. And I don't

44:04

start to be like, shut up, or whatever

44:06

I'm about to scream that's completely inappropriate. We

44:09

just had a question of the week about that, about a

44:11

kid who was tantrumming and she was five.

44:13

And if she did go to her room, you

44:15

know, she was screaming for half an hour and throwing

44:17

things. And then the whole house is like this

44:19

for the whole night, talk about a series of provocations.

44:21

And so it depends on your kid. It depends

44:23

on their age. Like it has been helpful for me

44:25

to decide, like, go to your room and do

44:27

whatever you want. But a five year old might not

44:29

be capable of that. Your eight year old might

44:31

not be capable of that. And your four year old

44:33

might be right. It depends on the kid. But

44:36

yeah, the kid has to be safe. That's

44:38

the number one rule. Right. And then

44:40

you've got to look out for yourself in those situations.

44:42

That's what I would say. Like, obviously, you're not going

44:44

to lock a two -year -old in their room to have

44:46

a tantrum. They could hurt themselves. Things could

44:48

go wrong. Right. Make another plan. Have

44:50

a place that's like, this is the

44:52

soft corner. This is where you go

44:54

when you're having a tantrum. But make

44:56

a plan for when things start going

44:58

off the rails. And I will also

45:00

say, especially with kids who are non

45:02

-neurotypical, that Kids bite

45:05

you, kids hit you, kids headbutt

45:07

you. Once it starts to become

45:09

physical between you and your child,

45:11

it's time to find another solution.

45:13

It's time to either shut it

45:15

down and walk away from them.

45:17

Whatever has to happen because... I

45:19

think this is, again, something we

45:21

don't talk about. Like when you're

45:23

trying to control a child who's

45:25

biting you, like your self -defense instincts

45:28

kick in. It is completely reasonable

45:30

to hit that child. Right.

45:32

And so that's why I'm talking about

45:34

the full house mom. It's not a question

45:36

of like bad moms hit their kids

45:38

because they're mean witch ladies. People

45:40

hit their kids because the situation has

45:43

gotten out of control. And so if

45:45

we can back back back that up

45:47

and start to say like my plan

45:49

for when my kid bites me is

45:51

to place him in the soft corner

45:53

and just blank facedly keep placing him

45:55

there until that behavior stops. It

45:58

gives me control. And but if we

46:00

both lose control, that's when things get

46:02

real ugly. It starts with admitting that

46:04

you sometimes lose control, understanding what that

46:06

looks like, learning from it, right? And

46:08

then recognizing it. sooner, I guess I

46:10

thought the idea of like, so recognize

46:12

when you're being triggered sooner so that

46:14

you can not do it bad person,

46:16

but it's actually remarkably effective. Like, oh,

46:18

here I go. Here's that thing. I'm

46:20

feeling my heart rate increased right now.

46:22

I'm feeling this. It just, it gives

46:24

you something else to attend to for

46:26

a moment. And as soon as you're

46:28

watching yourself have that reaction instead of

46:30

having that reaction, as soon as you

46:32

give that like one more level to

46:34

it, it helps you diffuse yourself. It

46:36

really does. And one other thing I

46:38

want to point out about our original

46:40

poster, who for all, she was like

46:42

hard on herself in this post, has

46:44

turned out to kind of be our

46:46

model for how to do this, right?

46:48

She kind of yelled at her two

46:50

year old. Yeah. Yeah. She yelled at

46:53

her two year old. And then she

46:55

said, I apologize to my two year

46:57

old for my reaction, but now I

46:59

feel awful. Then she says, has anyone

47:01

experienced something similar? Yes, everyone, as it

47:03

turns out. Yes. I also think that

47:05

this is another important part is then

47:07

revisiting it later and saying, as I

47:09

often have to my kids, Wow, I

47:11

kind of lost control there. I was

47:13

really screaming and I feel like I

47:15

might have even scared you. And I

47:17

really apologize. I lost control of my

47:19

temper and I'm really going to try

47:21

to work to get that under control

47:23

so that doesn't happen again. And

47:25

even if you say it five times,

47:27

like your kids here, I'm human. That

47:30

was not what I want to do and

47:32

be, but I did. We have an episode

47:34

from 2018 called Sometimes We Lose It and

47:36

it was with two authors named Heather Turgeon

47:38

and Julie Wright. So I'm going to put

47:40

a link in the show notes because that

47:42

episode was all about repair, that you need

47:44

to make that step part of it. I'm

47:46

going to give you a quote from Hailey

47:48

in our Facebook group. She says, we are

47:50

human. The best we can do

47:52

is apologize when a situation gets the

47:54

best of us and then make sure our

47:56

kids know it's okay to make mistakes

47:58

and because then you make them right. Yep,

48:00

agree. And like, I don't know. I

48:02

just hope everyone really feels that feeling of

48:04

seen and like, okay, the

48:06

worst thing you've done, lots of good moms,

48:09

you know, have done too and worse. And

48:11

the fact that you're listening to

48:13

a parenting podcast and trying to learn

48:15

something is a sign that you're

48:18

a great mom. And so forgive yourself

48:20

for any bad moments and like

48:22

work, learn from them. That's it, Amy.

48:24

You have solved it. Learn. Did

48:27

you know that we have a bookshop with

48:29

every guest who's ever had a book on our

48:31

podcast? It's like 70 books at this point,

48:33

plus books that you or I just love, Margaret,

48:35

and that list gets longer all the time.

48:37

And you go to bookshop .org. slash shop slash

48:40

what fresh hell cast but I'll also put a

48:42

link in the show notes so you can

48:44

just check out like all the books including books

48:46

about mom rage and how to address it.

48:48

Karla Nomburg. I have to say I didn't even

48:50

know about the book shop I mean I

48:52

kind of knew it was out there and I

48:54

went the other day and I was like

48:56

oh these are some of my favorite books and

48:58

it was a list called Margaret loves these

49:01

books and I was like oh I do love

49:03

these that's why I'm enjoying all these books

49:05

so was the tooth fairy made that for you.

49:07

It was really funny it was like unseen

49:09

labor someone's doing some invisible work on my behalf.

49:12

Go check out the bookshop. It's just fun to peruse

49:14

and with that we will talk to you next

49:16

week. So long. Thanks for listening.