0:00

Let's start this episode with

0:02

a little challenge. I'm going

0:04

to play a clip and

0:06

I want you to guess who

0:08

or what is making the sound.

0:10

So those are not the cries

0:12

of baby monkeys or the

0:15

whistles of dolphins or even the

0:17

squeaky sounds of a plush toy

0:19

your dog might chew on. They

0:21

are, according to some scientists, the

0:23

early whimpers and growls and howls

0:25

of the dire wolf, an animal

0:28

that went extinct more than 10,000

0:30

years ago. Collossal Biosciences, a company

0:32

based in Texas and the US,

0:34

claims to have used genetic engineering

0:36

and ancient preserved DNA to bring

0:39

back or de extinct, in their

0:41

words, the dire wolf. You may

0:43

remember that a version of this

0:45

rather large and intelligent wolf was

0:47

portrayed in the fictional series Game

0:49

of Thrones. But colossal says its

0:51

three pups are very real. The

0:54

baby wolves, named Romulus, Remus, and

0:56

Kalesi, are now being kept on

0:58

a 2,000-acre ecological preserve at an

1:00

undisclosed location in the northern US.

1:02

And in the past week, they've

1:04

become mega stars and even landed

1:06

on the cover of Time, the

1:08

American News magazine. So in today's

1:11

episode, we're going to look at

1:13

whether these genetically engineered wolves are

1:15

actually dire wolves. And we're going

1:17

to ask why some scientists want

1:19

to bring animals back from extinction.

1:22

I'm William Lee Adams, and this

1:24

is What in the World from

1:26

the BBC World Service. Here to

1:29

tell us more is Victoria Gill.

1:31

She is the BBC's science correspondent,

1:33

Victoria High. Hi, how you doing? Really well.

1:35

Thank you for joining us. So

1:37

the dire wolf hasn't roamed the

1:39

earth for more than 10,000 years,

1:41

and yet there's this company that

1:43

claims to have brought them back

1:45

from extinction. I want to start

1:48

by playing this clip of Beth

1:50

Shapiro. She is the chief scientist

1:52

at colossal. So a gray wolf

1:54

is the closest living relative of

1:56

a dire wolf. They're genetically really

1:59

similar. 99. And phenotypically, their morphology

2:01

is also similar, only dire wolves

2:03

are larger, more muscular, and had

2:05

these like-colored coats and other things

2:07

that we can see from the

2:09

fossils. And so we targeted DNA

2:11

sequence variants that we believe lead

2:13

to those traits. And then we

2:15

edited. gray wolf cells to contain

2:17

those dire wolf DNA variants and

2:19

then we cloned those cells and

2:21

created our dire wolves. Now Victoria

2:23

that's really complicated sounds like a

2:25

bit of globity glook to a

2:27

lot of us. Could you break

2:29

it down? What do they claim

2:31

to have done and how? The

2:34

dire wolf as you say hasn't

2:36

roamed the earth for it's about

2:38

12,000 years but we do have

2:40

some fossilized remains of dire wolves

2:42

from which DNA can be extracted.

2:44

So essentially the code that sort

2:46

of programs of body to be

2:48

a dire wolf or to be

2:50

a human or to be a

2:52

gray wolf. But that DNA is

2:54

really damaged, really incomplete. One scientist

2:56

described how DNA of this age,

2:58

it's sort of like putting fresh

3:00

DNA into a 500 degree oven

3:02

overnight. It comes out frazzled and

3:04

fragmented and shattered and as dust.

3:06

What they've managed to do is

3:08

kind of read that code, read

3:10

that genetic blueprint and kind of

3:12

fill in the gaps, which is

3:14

really impressive within itself. What they've

3:16

then done is compare that code,

3:19

that sort of biological blueprint, with

3:21

the blueprint of a living wolf.

3:23

So in this case, they've taken

3:25

a gray wolf, and they say

3:27

that that's the closest living relative

3:29

of a dire wolf. That's kind

3:31

of up for debate. Those two

3:33

animals diverged, they're what we call

3:35

a different genus, kind of a

3:37

different biological group. identified key bits

3:39

of the code that are different

3:41

in a gray wolf from a

3:43

dire wolf. So key bits of

3:45

code that say, this gives a

3:47

dire wolf a big, thick, white

3:49

coat rather than a kind of

3:51

mottled coat that a gray wolf

3:53

has. This is what gives a

3:55

dire wolf its much larger size

3:57

than a gray wolf. These are

3:59

the key bits of code. into

4:01

that genetic blueprint, into a gray

4:04

wolf embryo. So they've sort of

4:06

filled in these gaps and kind

4:08

of copied and pasted this genetic

4:10

material into this gray wolf embryo,

4:12

and then basically said, okay, that's

4:14

now a dire wolf. They then

4:16

take that embryo, implant it in

4:18

a domestic dog, and that's the

4:20

mother that has these puppies. They've

4:22

cloned these kind of genetically edited

4:24

embryos. Out of that, they got

4:26

three. healthy puppies. So that's what

4:28

they've done and it's using absolutely

4:30

cutting-edge genetic technology as well

4:33

as ancient DNA and it

4:35

is a really impressive scientific

4:37

feat. So we're talking about all this

4:39

after Time magazine in the US published

4:42

a cover story and in the pages

4:44

there were adorable images of those three

4:46

wolves you mentioned. They were looking snow

4:49

white, cuddly, but it does raise the

4:51

question, this great debate that you've just

4:53

pointed to. Are they actually dire wolves?

4:55

No, they're not. I've spoken to

4:58

a lot of geneticists, of evolutionary

5:00

biologists, kind of looking into this

5:02

story, and... Everyone agrees what colossal

5:04

have achieved is really impressive. You

5:06

know, being able to kind of

5:09

take and cut and edit this

5:11

genetic sequence and actually make a

5:13

healthy embryo and then produce these

5:15

three puppies. This is absolute cutting

5:18

edge stuff. It is very impressive,

5:20

but those are not dire wolves.

5:22

This is something that was raised

5:24

by Corey Bradshaw from Flinders

5:26

University. Yes, they have slightly genetically

5:29

modified wolves, maybe. and that's probably

5:31

the best that you're going to

5:33

get. And those slight modifications seem

5:36

to have been derived from retrieved

5:38

dire wolf material. Does that make

5:40

it a dire wolf? No. Does it make a slightly

5:43

modified grey wolf? Yes. And that's

5:45

probably about it. We can kind

5:47

of get into that, like, do they look

5:49

like dire wolves? We don't actually know

5:51

what dire wolves would have looked like,

5:53

because, you know, you can imagine, like,

5:55

10,000 year old remains, you don't get

5:57

a clear picture of that sort of

5:59

physical living... body, you get these kind

6:01

of fossilized remains. I think they've made

6:03

about 19 genetic additions, you know, thousands

6:06

and thousands of genes. So most of

6:08

the blueprint of these animals is gray

6:10

wolf. Like if you let these animals

6:13

out into the wild, which colossal probably

6:15

won't, by the way, I haven't asked

6:17

them that question, but they're being kept

6:20

in a secure secret facility. But if

6:22

you let these animals out into the

6:24

wild, they would be able to breed

6:27

with wild gray wolves and produce these

6:29

kind of, you know, genetic variant gray

6:31

wolves. When we talk about extinction and

6:34

when colossal talk about de-extinction, you know,

6:36

they call themselves a de-extinction company, what

6:38

they're basically saying is we can bring

6:41

these animals back from the dead. You

6:43

know, they are not forever disappeared. We

6:45

can use the technology we have to

6:48

bring them back. And what a lot

6:50

of scientists have pointed out is that

6:52

that isn't true. That's not what they've

6:55

done. These animals are not, you know,

6:57

biologically, genetically, genetically dire wolves. And that's

6:59

important because... you know, extinction is forever,

7:02

right? We're, you know, as humans, we're

7:04

doing a lot, making a lot of

7:06

changes to the planet, affecting a lot

7:09

of habitats and species. And I think

7:11

to sort of say that, oh, it's

7:13

fine if we wipe out species, we

7:16

can just use this genetic tinkering and

7:18

we can, you know, we can bring

7:20

them back, we can't, we just can't

7:23

do that. And as you say, colossal

7:25

wants to bring back or de-extinct, other

7:27

animals to which ones. And they've done

7:30

quite a lot of work on the

7:32

journey towards bringing back the woolly mammoth.

7:34

There was a paper published recently where

7:37

they identified the gene that gave the,

7:39

or the bit of genetic code that

7:41

gave the, that gave the woolly mammoth,

7:44

it's woolly coats. And they produced these

7:46

woolly mice. The impressive feat of being

7:48

able to edit their biological blueprint, their

7:51

genome, and actually produce these healthy mice

7:53

with these amazing woolly coats. But what

7:55

colossal want to do is actually... use

7:58

the closest living relative of a woolly

8:00

mammoth. to kind of do the same

8:02

piece of what they call the extinction

8:04

genetic technology with an elephant, right? So

8:07

you take an elephant which is the

8:09

closest living relative of a woolly mammoth,

8:11

you identify key bits of that elephant

8:14

biological blueprint that are specific, that make

8:16

the difference, the kind of difference in

8:18

code between a woolly mammoth and a

8:21

living elephant, and you kind of fill

8:23

in those gaps, you make those edits,

8:25

and you edit an elephant into a

8:28

woolly mammoth. artificial insemination or artificial implantation

8:30

in an elephant, it's actually quite risky.

8:32

So, you know, when it comes to

8:35

kind of the animal welfare journey and

8:37

the kind of ethical journey there, and

8:39

still at the end of it, you

8:41

know, once theoretically you would get your

8:44

woolly mammoth or woolly elephant, is that

8:46

really a woolly mammoth? No, it's kind

8:48

of an elephant woolly, woolly mammoth hybrid.

8:50

And then there's this question of like,

8:53

well, what is the purpose of that?

8:55

Like, where does that animal go? It

8:57

hasn't been around for a long time.

8:59

The environment it existed in in the

9:01

habitat it existed in no longer exists.

9:03

It's the same with dire wolves, right?

9:06

They roamed around during the last ice

9:08

age and they ate these large herbivores,

9:10

you know, they roamed and hunted. And

9:12

what they et doesn't exist anymore, the

9:14

environment and the climate that they lived

9:16

in, doesn't exist anymore. So, you know,

9:18

what one scientist put it to me,

9:20

that they, like, colossal now has these

9:22

three wolves. who is going to teach

9:24

them to be a dire wolf, right?

9:26

There are no kind of dire wolf

9:28

packs roaming and dire wolf habitat in

9:30

existence that they can just live in

9:32

and sort of fill in this gap

9:34

in the kind of in the planet

9:37

that they left behind when they went

9:39

extinct. So there's a whole question of

9:41

like, why do this? What would we

9:43

actually gain from bringing these animals back?

9:45

What they're saying is that they

9:47

are... carrying out technology that means

9:50

they will be able to reverse

9:52

the destruction of other species on

9:54

the planet. And that sounds like

9:56

quite a noble cause. But within

9:58

that you've kind of have got

10:00

you know it's what we were

10:02

talking about before you've sort of

10:04

got this suggestion that oh that's

10:06

fine we can do whatever we

10:08

want to the planet and we

10:10

can damage habitats to the point

10:13

where we wipe out species and

10:15

then we can kind of just

10:17

fix it fix it with this

10:19

technology that isn't conservation that's not

10:21

species protection it's not biodiversity protection

10:23

it's not you know learning to

10:25

share the planet with all the

10:27

rest of these species it's doing

10:29

something biological it's doing something impressively

10:31

scientific to be able to make

10:33

something new it's a big question

10:35

and it will go on because

10:37

you know colossal are really keen

10:39

to push this technology and continue

10:41

this journey and we will be

10:43

hearing a lot more from them

10:45

I think in the future and

10:47

at the moment they're just two

10:50

brothers and a sister it's a

10:52

pretty small gene pool does that

10:54

present any problems to actually propagating

10:56

the species or whatever they've created

10:58

you'd need a certain number of

11:00

animals with a certain amount of

11:02

genetic variation to be able to

11:04

say okay you know that species

11:06

can sort of handle itself it

11:08

can go off and reproduce and

11:10

propagate and it will be fine

11:12

that's obviously not the case with

11:14

with these animals so at the

11:16

moment it's just sort of a

11:18

demonstration of what you can do

11:20

with this technology and it's you

11:22

know it's brought up this it's

11:24

produced these incredibly cute puppies these

11:26

like these beautiful wolves but there

11:29

is no possibility that that's you

11:31

know that three related animals are

11:33

now a population that means the

11:35

dire wolf can kind of take

11:37

care of itself I mean the

11:39

key thing is they're not dire

11:41

wolf but you know but even

11:43

if they were three of them

11:45

closely related you know that is

11:47

that is not a sustainable population

11:49

Victoria thank you so much for

11:51

explaining that thank you that's all

11:53

for today thanks for listening to

11:55

another episode of what in the

11:57

world from the BBC World Service

11:59

if this got you howling for

12:01

more animal content do check out

12:03

our feed wherever you're listening right

12:06

now We've got several other episodes covering the natural world and topics

12:08

like should zoos exist and how to rescue whales from a war

12:10

zone. I'm William Lee Adams. We'll see you again soon.