0:00

Billy Kennedy spent a lot of time at the

0:02

Boys Club, where he grew up in Phoenix, Arizona.

0:04

He played on a basketball team there. But

0:06

one day a referee didn't show up

0:08

for a younger kid's game, and the

0:11

Boys Club director asked if anyone wanted

0:13

to referee. And I raised my

0:15

hand up. I don't know why.

0:17

I have no idea why I did that. I'll

0:22

never forget it. It was a Saturday morning. They

0:25

didn't have a shirt that fit. They just gave me a whistle.

0:28

And I kind of went out there. Billy

0:30

got the bug, the referee bug.

0:33

It changed the way he watched games as a

0:35

fan. There was a guy by

0:37

the name of Jokushu. He's out of the

0:39

Philadelphia, a great NBA referee. And I was

0:42

at a game watching. I

0:44

wasn't watching the players or the game

0:46

itself. I was always watching the referees.

0:48

He had a few people encourage him

0:50

along the way. And he caught the

0:52

attention of a local journalist. There's an

0:54

article in the Young Athlete magazine. And

0:57

in that story, it's clear that

0:59

I say at 12 years old,

1:01

yeah, I'm going to be an NBA referee.

1:04

And so it's documented that this is

1:06

something that I've been doing for over

1:08

40 years. And

1:11

over those decades, he's seen some magical

1:13

moments on the court. He officiated the

1:15

game where Kobe Bryant scored 81 points.

1:21

And in 2012, I worked the bronze

1:23

medal game in the Olympics. I worked

1:25

the All-Star game. And I worked a

1:28

finals game all in the same year. Yeah,

1:31

that was a pretty good year. I'm

1:46

Dan Heath. And this is what it's like

1:49

to be. In every episode,

1:51

we walk in the shoes of someone from

1:53

a different profession. A long

1:55

haul trucker, a couples therapist, an FBI

1:57

special agent. We want to know what

2:00

they do all day at work. Today

2:03

we're going pro. We'll ask

2:05

Billy Kennedy what it's like to be

2:07

an NBA referee. We'll talk

2:09

about what's the hardest call to make on

2:11

the court, why he tries to

2:14

go incognito when he travels, and

2:16

what it's like to be booed by 10,000

2:18

people. Stay

2:20

with us. I'm

2:25

Alan Alder. My podcast, Clear and Vivid,

2:28

is about connecting. Mo Raka enjoys connecting

2:30

with older folks. The older you get,

2:32

the less you care about what other

2:34

people think of you. But words change.

2:37

Ann Curzan says it was once proper

2:39

to say the house is building. Heaven

2:41

forbid you say the house is being

2:43

built, rather than the house is building.

2:46

Charles Duhigg says everybody can connect better.

2:48

Thinking about communication is what makes us

2:50

better at communication. You can connect with

2:52

Clear and Vivid wherever you get your

2:54

podcast. As

2:57

with most professions, referring in the

2:59

NBA comes with the career ladder.

3:02

I have been an umpire. I have been

3:04

in the referee position. And I

3:06

have been a crew chief, currently one of the crew

3:08

chiefs. So that's the career

3:11

progression, umpire, to referee, to crew

3:13

chief. What does a crew chief do? Coordinates

3:16

pregame meetings, makes final

3:19

decisions, leadership stuff. It

3:22

all sounds pretty hierarchical. But when there's

3:24

a live ball? Once the

3:26

ball is thrown up, all of our

3:28

responsibilities are pretty much the same as

3:30

far as the rotation. You

3:33

see, each ref rotates through three

3:35

different positions on the court. There's

3:37

a trail official, a slot official,

3:40

and a lead official. And

3:42

the best way to get a sense of

3:44

these three positions is to envision where they

3:46

are on the court. So the trail official

3:48

is the one that's furthest away from the

3:50

basket. Think beyond the three-point line on the

3:52

strong side of the court. Now, the strong

3:54

side is the side of the court that

3:57

the ball is on. The lead official is

3:59

underneath the basket. And they're also

4:01

on the strong side. And the

4:03

slot official is usually at the free throw

4:05

line extended. And they're on the

4:07

weak side, the side where the ball isn't. Each

4:10

position, trail, slot, and lead

4:13

is responsible for an area of the

4:15

court, generally the area closest to them,

4:17

though if they've got a better view,

4:19

they'll sometimes make calls outside of those

4:21

areas. And as the ball

4:23

moves around the court or a foul is

4:25

called, they switch positions. So they're

4:28

constantly rotating in and out of

4:30

the trail, slot, and lead positions.

4:36

What if you pull a muscle or something

4:38

in the game? Is there somebody ready to

4:40

streak off the sidelines and take your place?

4:43

I'm glad you brought that up. The answer

4:45

is no, unless we're in the playoffs. Oh,

4:47

really? Yeah. So you just have to go

4:49

to a skeleton crew of two if something

4:51

happens? We have a two-man officiating system that

4:54

everybody on staff is aware of. And

4:57

I have been in that situation numerous

4:59

times, especially during COVID. We also have

5:02

a mechanic that if we have one

5:04

official left, that official

5:06

has a mechanic on how to handle

5:08

a game refereeing with one person. In

5:11

many sports, there's a preseason training camp

5:13

where the athletes come back and you

5:15

get to see who's still in shape

5:17

and who's not. Same

5:20

goes for referees. They bring them in

5:22

for a preseason checkup. And we have

5:24

to get on a treadmill. No kidding.

5:26

Oh, absolutely. We're on a treadmill. You're

5:28

going to run anywhere between 15 to

5:30

20 minutes. And

5:33

then they check your heart rate. They check

5:35

your blood pressure. They make sure that everything

5:37

is in working order. The

5:40

referees don't work every single day. I

5:43

usually work between 60 and 65 regular

5:45

season games. For me, that's

5:47

about three a week. With

5:49

the NBA arena spread out around the country,

5:52

that means he's always on the go. We

5:54

average about five days a month

5:57

that we're home. And

5:59

they're not on the go. off on the holidays, of course. We

6:02

fly during Christmas, Thanksgiving. We fly

6:04

during spring break, New Year's, all

6:07

of the holidays that everybody is

6:09

home for. I mean, we're traveling.

6:12

And they're not immune to all of

6:14

the travel frustrations that you and I

6:17

go through, like hotel rooms not being

6:19

ready or flight delays and cancellations. I've

6:21

been in a situation where I got

6:23

to an arena 25 minutes

6:25

before the game started. Oh, man. I

6:27

bet you were sweating that. And that

6:29

was crazy. So Billy

6:31

has racked up a lot of miles in the

6:33

air and also on the

6:35

court. Every game he's

6:37

running to keep up with the players

6:40

who, let's remember, are professional athletes. Billy

6:43

has tracked how many miles he puts in during

6:45

an average game. So I know

6:47

that we run anywhere between five to six miles

6:49

a game. That's a lot

6:51

of running, but more to the point, it's

6:53

a lot of running in a situation where

6:55

it's really costly to take a break or

6:58

get hurt. That's why

7:00

before each game, referees get access to

7:02

a professional athletic trainer who can work

7:05

on a tight muscle or a sore

7:07

lower back. Seeing the trainer

7:09

is part of Billy's pregame ritual, and

7:12

he's got a few others, too. There's

7:14

a certain way that the uniform is displayed

7:16

when I get to the locker room. You

7:18

put the socks on one side, you put the

7:20

pants on the other side. The shirt is

7:22

inside out. The timing device is sitting on

7:24

top, and your whistle lanyard is

7:26

in a certain place. What

7:30

do you think are the greatest areas in

7:32

the rule book? Are there certain kinds of

7:34

plays or certain kind of infractions where two

7:36

different referees might look at the film and

7:39

one of them would call it one way

7:41

and one of them would call it another

7:43

way? I would venture

7:45

to guess that a majority of

7:47

the people that's listening to this would say

7:49

Baskin Interference Goal Tending would be the hardest

7:51

call. And they

7:53

would not be wrong, but there would be one

7:56

other play that we have that I think is

7:58

so difficult for us. And it's

8:00

out of bounds. For

8:02

the human eye to sometimes be able

8:05

to see in a

8:07

split second, it is the, in my

8:09

opinion, the most difficult play we

8:11

have. NBA referees are

8:14

under tremendous pressure to get calls

8:16

right. And there are a

8:18

lot of opportunities to make a mistake. There

8:20

is anywhere between 3,000 to 4,000 decisions being

8:24

made on a nightly basis. That's

8:26

what these three officials, when you're watching the game,

8:28

you have no idea that they are doing. And

8:31

the plays at the end of the

8:34

game get the most scrutiny. For years

8:36

now, and I had no idea this

8:38

was true, the NBA posts last two

8:41

minute reports on their website for any

8:43

overtime game or any game that's within

8:45

three points with less than two minutes

8:47

remaining. They list and

8:50

even provide video of every

8:52

correct call, every incorrect

8:54

call, every significant

8:56

correct non-call, and every

8:58

incorrect non-call. And

9:01

furthermore, there are consequences for

9:03

incorrect calls. Adam Silver,

9:05

the NBA commissioner, told ESPN in 2023,

9:09

some of those consequences can include

9:11

working fewer games or not progressing

9:14

to the playoffs. So

9:16

you can see the link here. To make more

9:18

money as a ref, you've gotta get your calls

9:20

right. After every game, we

9:22

do tape review and we look at plays and

9:24

we know that we've made a mistake. And

9:27

we function with this

9:29

particular phrase in our mind. We

9:32

are striving for perfection, but

9:35

we'll accept excellence. I

9:39

love that. So you'll usually, will

9:41

you usually figure out within the game that

9:43

you got something wrong or is it usually

9:45

afterwards where you're looking back and I

9:47

missed that one. Contrary to popular belief, as

9:49

soon as you blow the whistle, you know you've

9:51

made a mistake. Wow.

9:53

It's that quick. That's fascinating.

9:57

You know that you've made a mistake and

9:59

you're going. Uh-oh. But the

10:01

whistle's out and you can't put it back. I'm

10:04

not going to like this one. No, and

10:06

then you could go look at the tape. You

10:08

might be right, but with the level of experience

10:11

that you have, you're going to know that you've

10:13

made a mistake. And so

10:15

you don't dwell on it. You try

10:17

to get past it as quickly as

10:19

you possibly can and get back to

10:21

refereeing the defense, calling the

10:23

obvious, staying in your primary. Don't

10:26

guess. Trust your partners. If

10:29

you get back to that routine, it'll get

10:31

you what we call out of the soup.

10:33

Get out of the—and now you're back on

10:35

track to being more accurate

10:37

and getting your plays correct. I

10:40

never thought about how you would have a similar

10:43

struggle with psychology with the players. Like,

10:46

you know, a player misses a crucial three and

10:48

it kind of rattles them. And in a similar

10:50

way, you catch yourself blowing the whistle at the

10:52

wrong time. Like, you have to get back in

10:54

the game too. You have to just shake it

10:56

off and— One hundred percent correct. And

10:59

we're the third team out there. You

11:01

have the home team, the visiting team, and the officiating

11:03

team. The least popular of the three teams. That

11:07

does happen. That does

11:09

happen. But, you know, and

11:11

we have strategic stuff that we use

11:13

to get our team back in focus

11:15

when we need to be back in

11:18

focus individually and collectively as a unit

11:20

working together. The five

11:22

things that I just—referring the defense, call the

11:24

obvious, stay in your primary. Don't

11:27

guess. Trust your partners. I can't tell

11:29

you how many times, you know, I'm out there on the

11:31

floor night in and night out saying

11:33

those same things to myself to

11:36

keep my mind focused for 48

11:38

minutes. You go

11:40

to an NBA game and you never notice or

11:42

see the officials go sit down for a time

11:44

out. We don't get to go

11:47

sit down for the time outs. We're still standing out

11:49

there on the floor waiting for this time out to

11:51

be over. And then we go right back to work.

11:54

Nobody comes and subs for us. That's

11:56

a great point. Yeah, no, there's no subs sitting

11:58

at the table. Say, hey Billy, you need a

12:00

five minute break? Yeah, even LeBron

12:02

gets like a minute on the bench every

12:05

now and then. I'm telling you, the officiating

12:07

crew that's working that night does not get

12:09

time outs. We don't get time outs. We

12:11

don't get to go and have a water

12:14

break. We get to halftime. We go 14

12:16

minutes. We go to the locker room and

12:18

we spend a lot of that time just

12:20

looking at plays and making sure that we

12:23

have the answers that may

12:25

be asked of us during the first half.

12:28

And then we're right back out on the floor. Hey

12:32

folks, Dan here with a casting call.

12:35

We're starting to think about a holiday episode.

12:38

Last year, you may remember we had

12:40

the professional Santa Claus, Larry Jefferson, who

12:42

was incredible. What profession do you

12:44

think we should target this year? The

12:46

Toymaker? A reindeer trainer?

12:49

Christmas tree farmer? Do

12:51

you know anybody in one of these professions

12:53

or something similar? Let us know. jobsatwhatitslike.com.

12:58

Just keep in mind, we want people for

13:01

whom their job is their main thing. You

13:03

know, we're not just looking for someone who's

13:05

an awesome caroler or bakes a mean fruitcake

13:07

or whatever. We want someone who's in a

13:10

profession. If you know

13:12

that person, please write us

13:14

at jobsatwhatitslike.com. We

13:18

all have bad days and sometimes bad weeks

13:20

and maybe even bad years. But

13:23

the good news is we don't have to figure out

13:25

life all alone. I'm comedian Chris Duffy,

13:27

host of Ted's How to Be a Better Human

13:29

podcast. And our show is about the

13:31

little ways that you can improve your life, actual practical

13:34

tips that you can put into place that will make

13:36

your day to day better. Whether it

13:38

is setting boundaries at work or rethinking how

13:40

you clean your house, each episode

13:42

has conversations with experts who share tips

13:44

on how to navigate life's ups and

13:47

downs. Find How to Be a Better

13:49

Human wherever you're listening to this. So

13:52

you and your 72 colleagues are among

13:55

a small tribe of people on planet Earth

13:57

who have had the experience of 10,000. plus

14:00

people booing them. What is

14:02

that like? This may be strange

14:04

to hear, but a lot of times we don't

14:07

hear a lot of that. Interesting.

14:10

We call it the noise because the next

14:12

time you go to an NBA game, just

14:15

understand the three individuals that you see out

14:17

there officiating a game, they

14:19

are the focus and the level of

14:21

concentration that they're on to make sure

14:23

that mistakes aren't made. Their

14:26

level of concentration is so high that

14:28

to say that we hear certain things,

14:30

now if it's a timeout and we're

14:32

standing there and we get the

14:35

illustrious chant that normally comes

14:37

with officiating, and we

14:39

all know that chant, but obviously we're

14:41

human, we're going to hear that. But

14:44

if we're working a game, we're moving and

14:46

we're officiating and we're running up and down

14:48

the court, I would venture to

14:50

say that many of us, I

14:53

would say the majority of us, we don't

14:55

hear what's going on in

14:57

the stands because of the level of

14:59

concentration, the focus that we have. Even

15:02

though there are only three referees on the

15:04

court, they've got help, sometimes

15:06

thousands of miles away. Located

15:10

in the NBA's offices in Secaucus,

15:12

New Jersey and developed over a

15:14

two-year period, the new state-of-the-art NBA

15:16

Replay Center officially makes its debut

15:18

on October 28th, opening

15:20

night of the 2014-2015 season. The

15:24

NBA's Replay Center looks like a

15:26

huge TV control room. More than

15:28

100 HD monitor stream live

15:31

feeds with multiple angles of every game being

15:33

played at one of the 30 NBA arenas.

15:37

It costs $15 million to build and

15:39

on average, referees on the court use

15:41

it twice a game. There

15:45

are 16 triggers for the Replay

15:48

Center to be used. Things like

15:50

plays right before time expires, or

15:52

there's a close out of bounds call, or a

15:55

coach can challenge a call and ask for the

15:57

Replay Center refs to take a look. When

16:00

there's a replay request, the on-court ref

16:02

twirls their finger in the air and

16:04

the replay center refs spring into action.

16:06

They generally make the final call. I

16:09

applaud the guys and gals that work in

16:11

there because if you've ever been to the

16:13

replay center, there are no windows. And

16:17

the people that work there work

16:19

very long hours. Games

16:21

can start at four o'clock and then the

16:23

last game would be at 1 a.m. ending

16:25

time on the East Coast. Billy

16:28

gave me an example of how the replay

16:30

center might be staffed. Let's

16:32

say we have 10 games on

16:34

the slate for the NBA on a Thursday

16:37

night. There can be anywhere

16:39

from four to five different NBA

16:41

officials in the replay center that

16:44

particular day. So an official

16:46

could have one game that

16:48

he or she is responsible for and

16:50

all of the replays that

16:52

go with that. There's never

16:54

been more technology arrayed in favor

16:56

of fair officiating. Even

16:59

so, it doesn't stop athletes from complaining about

17:01

calls that didn't go their way. Here's

17:03

LeBron James after a game against the Nuggets.

17:06

I don't understand what's going on in the replay center to be

17:08

honest. I said it, I think I said it

17:10

this year or last year or whatever. What the f***

17:13

do we have a replay center if it's going to

17:15

go? It doesn't make sense

17:17

to me. For his part, Billy

17:19

is glad the replay center is there. The

17:21

people there even help him figure out what to

17:24

say. Somebody in the replay

17:26

center may say, say it this way. And so

17:28

I'll say it that way. What do you mean

17:30

by that? What are you saying? After

17:32

further review, the defensive player made

17:34

contact clear and conclusive. Those types

17:36

of words, clear and conclusive. You

17:38

see what I'm saying? Making sure

17:41

that we're educating the fans

17:43

that the reason why we changed this play

17:45

was because there was clear and conclusive evidence

17:47

that the person stepped out of bounds or

17:49

that there was contact to the wrist prior

17:52

to the ball being released. That's

17:54

so interesting that they're helping you with

17:56

wordsmithing in real time. Absolutely. Absolutely.

17:59

a very public job that

18:02

a lot of people love to hate. I

18:04

wondered if that made him think about his own security

18:06

when he was out and about. When

18:08

I first came into the league, my first

18:11

three years, I was so excited about being

18:13

an NBA referee, I would put my bag

18:15

that you take on the plane, your carry-on

18:17

luggage, and I would stuff that underneath the

18:19

seat, and I would make sure that that

18:22

NBA emblem, oh, I gotta be able to

18:24

see that NBA emblem. You

18:26

get an All-Star ring or something, and

18:28

you wanna wear, today, I don't

18:31

wear anything. That's kinda sad. Well,

18:35

it's for your self-protection that

18:38

you never know if one

18:40

of those so-called fanatics wants

18:43

to now become fanatic with you.

18:46

With the evolution of how things are going

18:48

nowadays, you always have to be cognizant of

18:50

the fact that something could

18:52

happen. So

18:55

Billy, we always end our episodes with

18:57

a quick lightning round of questions. Here

18:59

we go. What's the

19:01

most insulting thing you could say about

19:04

an NBA referee's work? It

19:07

is fascinating to me that

19:10

people think that

19:13

they can walk out onto an

19:15

NBA floor, put on

19:17

an NBA referee's shirt, and

19:21

officiate to the level of the

19:25

staff that we have today.

19:28

I equate it this way. If I

19:30

was going to, or you, were

19:32

going to have brain surgery today, and

19:35

you went to the hospital, and

19:38

they prepped you, and

19:40

now I walk in and they say,

19:44

okay, we're removing a brain tumor today,

19:46

and here's the patient, and

19:48

good luck. There is no

19:50

way that I would be able to go

19:52

in and

19:54

do brain surgery on anybody. And

19:57

yet, I find it fascinating that,

19:59

number of people. Every

20:02

Yahoo on a couch in America thinks they could

20:04

do better than you. And

20:06

they consistently tell us that. And

20:09

so that would be

20:11

something that, you know, it's just, it's not disheartening

20:13

because I've been doing it for so long. It's

20:15

just, I wish that they would understand that, you

20:18

know, the time, the effort

20:20

that everybody on staff puts

20:22

in to maintain

20:24

the level of

20:26

excellence that we have on a

20:28

night in and night out basis.

20:32

What's a tool specific to your profession that

20:34

you really like using? So... It's

20:37

got to be the whistle, no? Well, yeah.

20:41

Something more high tech. I mean,

20:43

if we're going to basic stuff, I

20:45

mean, yeah, it's the whistle that we

20:47

use. And I'll give Fox 40 a

20:50

shout out. The

20:52

Fox 40 whistle, I remember way

20:54

back in the day, we used to have a

20:56

pea in the whistle. It was

20:58

an Acme Thunder whistle back in 1999 and

21:00

2000. It

21:04

actually had a pea in the whistle. And

21:07

what do you mean a pea in the whistle? So like

21:09

a small little green, like

21:11

a pea. The whistles way back in

21:13

the day had to produce the sound,

21:16

the pea with inside the whistle in

21:18

the chamber of the whistle. It

21:20

would vibrate and create a sound as

21:23

you put air through the whistle. So

21:25

these Acme Thunder, yeah. So we had

21:27

to buy like nine

21:30

Acme Thunder whistles to get one

21:32

whistle out of the nine that

21:34

sounded good. That

21:36

sounded, I'm serious. That's not a great

21:38

hit rate. No, exactly. But we

21:40

had to buy like 15 of the, to get one whistle that

21:43

sounded good. And

21:45

Fox 40 figured out how to create

21:47

a whistle that's pea-less. And

21:50

so the only thing you have to worry about

21:52

Fox 40 is if you bite through the plastic

21:54

and if you don't keep it clean. Ladies and

21:57

gentlemen, meet my new sponsor, Fox 40. Home

22:01

of the pea-less whistle. Home of the pea-less

22:03

whistle, exactly. I've just got one

22:05

last question for you. What is

22:07

an aspect of your job that

22:09

you consistently savor? There's

22:12

no better feeling when

22:15

a crew together,

22:18

not necessarily individually, we'll celebrate

22:20

that later, but as a

22:23

crew, when

22:25

the crew walks off the floor and they

22:27

know that everybody on their own, everybody

22:30

on that crew, including the alternate, including

22:32

the official in the replay center, if

22:34

it happens to be during the playoffs,

22:37

did a great job.

22:40

And when I say great, that means we

22:42

may not have been perfect, but

22:45

we achieved the excellence that we were

22:47

striving for. And if

22:49

you can put the game first, your

22:51

partner second, and yourself third, you can

22:54

have that mentality on a night in

22:56

and night out basis. Then the crew

22:58

walks off in an excellent mindset of

23:01

we did really well that night or

23:03

this game, and then we got to go do it again tomorrow.

23:07

Billy Kennedy

23:09

has been an

23:12

NBA referee

23:14

for more

23:17

than 25 years. My

23:27

favorite part of this interview was at the top

23:29

of the episode, that moment that Billy

23:32

as a kid raises his hand to be a

23:34

fill in referee to this day. He's

23:36

not sure why he did that. He

23:38

just knew he knew at age 12

23:41

what he wanted to do with his life. How

23:43

often do you figure that happens? Did

23:46

it happen for you? How early

23:48

did you know what you wanted to do? And

23:51

don't get too hung up on your current

23:53

title. Like if you're an associate development director

23:56

at a university or something, obviously those words

23:58

weren't on the ground. on your lips as

24:00

a 12-year-old. But

24:02

looking back, do you see the

24:04

signs that what you do now

24:06

was something you enjoyed even at

24:08

an early age? I

24:11

didn't call myself a writer until I was probably

24:13

35 years old. So the

24:15

profession was not an obvious choice for me,

24:17

the way it was for Billy. But

24:20

looking back at my childhood, the

24:22

clues are so obvious. I was

24:24

always seeking out chances to write,

24:27

volunteering for the school paper, entering

24:29

essay contests and that sort of

24:31

thing. A friend told

24:34

me recently that the kinds of

24:36

activities you seek out as a

24:38

kid voluntarily are the best

24:40

clues for what you'll enjoy as an adult.

24:43

I have absolutely no proof that that is true,

24:46

but it's true for me, and

24:48

it's certainly true for Billy. Running

24:51

the court, trusting your teammates, staying

24:54

out of the soup, enduring

24:56

the abuse of fans, and fighting

24:58

to maintain the integrity of one

25:00

of the world's most popular sports.

25:03

Folks, that's what it's like to be

25:06

an NBA referee. A

25:10

shout out to recent

25:12

reviewers on Apple Podcasts,

25:14

Masha, Sharon888Lee, Ann Arbor

25:16

user, Rogofoo, NY

25:18

iPhone gal, Yumak, or

25:21

UmaHK, and 82LJP thanks

25:24

to all of you. This

25:26

episode was produced by Matt Purdy. I'm

25:29

Dan Heath, take care.