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I'm germ, Install sleeps Jurisprudence editor. Ordinarily

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I edit or courts and legal coverage

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from the comfort of my home office

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in Los Angeles, but for the next

0:54

month and a half of will be

0:56

locked in a Lower Manhattan court room

0:59

with the rest of the press. a

1:01

jury of twelve New Yorkers just as

1:03

one Marshawn. Prosecutors. Trump's

1:06

defense team and the former President

1:08

himself. As history unfolds, I've temporarily

1:10

move myself, my family from Los

1:12

Angeles to New York to cover

1:14

this case first hand like I

1:16

have done in other cases including

1:18

the Paul Manafort case, the Roger

1:20

Stone Criminal Trial, and Donald Trump's

1:22

first impeachment. I'm hoping that

1:25

my background knowledge of the many, many

1:27

criminal travails of our former President can

1:29

offer something to you Slates, listener. Over.

1:31

The next several weeks you'll be

1:34

hearing from me on Am A

1:36

Kiss Sleep Legal Podcast and in

1:38

articles on sleep.com From the jury

1:40

selection, to the opening arguments, to

1:43

the witness testimony and cross examination

1:45

and the prosecution's case and the

1:47

defense's case and ultimately to a

1:49

final verdict. We. Will be

1:51

providing you wall to wall coverage throughout the

1:54

entirety of the trial as it unfolds from

1:56

the courtroom. There's no way I'd be able

1:58

to do it. The the

2:00

A class so if you're not

2:03

already a subscriber, please join Today

2:05

Equity Try free the Top of

2:07

the Hammock, his show page on

2:10

Apple podcasts or does it sleep.com/and

2:12

Because Plus to get access wherever

2:15

you listen. Thank you so so

2:17

much. How

2:26

are you doing it? Tell me about your last

2:29

twenty four hours. I mean,

2:31

I'm exhausted. I got about six

2:33

hours of sleep. I'm I just

2:35

came from trying to squeeze in

2:37

my department senior thesis presentations. And

2:40

I'm And I'm Paris. I mean I'm I'm

2:42

absolutely your is. This.

2:45

Is Joe Howley. he's a professor

2:47

at Columbia University, teaches Classics and

2:50

when the and my duty. Stomped

2:52

on the campus earlier this week. To

2:55

get protesters out of a building that

2:57

occupied. The stamps right

2:59

into Jos. Off this. You.

3:02

Know I walk past the other day

3:04

and I saw banner hanging out of

3:06

i. I thought I was.

3:08

I'm glad I'm not hanging out of my office

3:10

window because I really left my office of Mass.

3:13

I'm. So grateful I brought my laptop

3:16

home at that the night before.

3:20

Jos always known that the place. He works

3:23

Hamilton Hall and got history.

3:25

The students occupied in Nineteen Sixty

3:28

Eight to protest the Vietnam War,

3:30

then again in Nineteen Eighty Five

3:32

to protest Apartheid in South Africa.

3:35

Juices. He didn't know this year's occupation

3:37

of Hamilton Hall was coming, but he

3:40

had a few other faculty members who

3:42

were advising the. Student protesters.

3:45

They knew how agitated they were all getting.

3:48

We. Tell them that we think. I'm.

3:51

And you know, certainly. I and I

3:53

think I'm not the only one who in recent

3:55

weeks. had a student say to be

3:57

something like what we could always escalate and i've always

3:59

said please do not escalate. That would be a

4:01

really stupid thing to do. When

4:04

did it become clear that the police were

4:06

going to be called in to get students out of

4:08

Hamilton Hall? I mean, I

4:10

assumed that that was in the cards as

4:13

soon as I saw that it had happened. On

4:16

Monday, the university escalated with

4:18

the students. They issued really

4:21

pune of disciplinary threats. They were really aggressive

4:23

about it. Then they started seeing students, including

4:26

students who were nowhere near the camp. I

4:28

know students who were nowhere near

4:30

the encampment at the deadline but

4:33

have Palestinian last names and they've

4:35

gotten suspension notices. So clearly, the

4:37

university is just going cowboy with

4:39

the discipline here. And it is

4:41

amazing to me that this

4:43

building was left unsecured overnight.

4:46

It's like no one running the university has

4:48

read a book about the history of protest

4:50

movements on campuses or this campus in particular,

4:52

which is really wild because it's very obvious

4:54

that our students have. Joe

4:56

says he actually wanted to prevent the police from

4:59

having to go in at all. I

5:01

spent most of the day working with a group of faculty

5:03

members who we

5:05

thought could have the trust of the students,

5:08

faculty members who were former protesters in

5:10

the 80s and 90s here themselves, and

5:15

offering to the university leadership through

5:17

the University Senate to say,

5:19

look, if you can let us back onto campus, we can

5:22

reach out to these students and try to

5:24

build a bridge and open a dialogue and

5:26

try to defuse this situation. And we were

5:28

just rebuffed and ignored by university leadership. This

5:31

is when everything went down. First,

5:34

a ton of cops showed up. Then

5:36

they backed up a little ramp to Joe's

5:39

office building and started hauling folks out. The

5:42

whole time, Joe was listening to

5:44

the college radio station, which was broadcasting

5:46

live. You know,

5:49

listening to our student journalists as

5:51

riot police, you

5:53

know, took apart the building where I work, Dragged

5:58

students out, and then hearing from them. Colleague this

6:00

morning. About the students

6:03

coming out of one police plaza with.

6:05

Lacerations, And bruises. You.

6:09

Know from being kicked down the stairs injuries

6:12

that look like they were sustained after they

6:14

were already zip tied in police custody. Know.

6:19

Every single thing about this is

6:21

completely maddening. And

6:23

none of it had to happen. Answer

6:29

for the fact that basically the

6:31

same time the cops were coming

6:33

under Columbia's campus, sitting protesters out

6:35

of Hamilton Hall. A really different

6:38

situations playing out of the Cla

6:40

their law. Enforcement with nowhere to be

6:42

seen. As pro Israel counterprotesters moved

6:44

in on a pro Palestinian examine.

6:47

I mean some of the diversity

6:49

allographs across this country. That

6:51

maximum police force is a

6:53

viable response to these protests.

6:56

I am not surprised that

6:58

vigilante mob violence broke out.

7:04

Today on the show a

7:06

professor year alongside the protesters

7:08

and change them. I'm Mary

7:10

Harris. You're listening to what

7:12

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8:32

Joe, how did you get involved in the campus

8:34

protests at Columbia? Like, I

8:36

heard that even before the encampment started,

8:38

you know, you were getting

8:41

together with other Jewish faculty to write

8:43

letters to the college president, all sorts

8:45

of things like that. Why

8:47

were you getting involved in these ways?

8:49

Yeah, I mean, it's very much not

8:51

typical for me. You know, in October,

8:54

in the weeks after October 7th, I

8:56

was getting messages from the instructors

8:59

I supervise. Their students

9:01

were coming and talking to them because

9:04

they were reading like, Escaluses or Estiah

9:06

or the Book of Job. And

9:09

the students wanted to connect these themes

9:11

of retributive violence and justice to what

9:14

was happening in the news in the middle of October.

9:16

And the instructors were saying, I don't know how to

9:18

have this conversation. I don't know

9:20

if it's safe to talk about the war in

9:22

the classroom. And I wrote them

9:24

this long memo and I said, look, first of

9:26

all, it's already clear to me in October that

9:28

I'm not sure I can protect you if

9:31

this gets, you know, really McCarthy Wow,

9:34

you said that back then. I said that

9:36

back then. Yeah. And and I thought I

9:38

was being paranoid, but now I don't think that, you

9:40

know, and I say this having taught through, you

9:43

know, the Trump years and Black Lives Matter, that

9:45

if you

9:48

as an educator, if you feel the urge

9:50

to say or do something politically, you know,

9:54

I really urged them to find the other

9:56

venues for their politics and activism because I

9:58

didn't want them to get in trouble. they

10:01

also didn't want them to kind of i'm

10:03

trans Benson that way and and damage the

10:05

relationship with their students. I'm saying that. Third,

10:08

Try to demonstrate to you how out

10:10

as and a character this is for

10:12

me. So here's what happened in. In

10:15

the fall. Not long

10:17

after the. Really? Terrible attacks on

10:20

October seven some anti war student

10:22

groups and put out a statement

10:24

in which they urged everyone the

10:27

community to think about. These.

10:29

Attacks in context in the

10:31

context of history. In

10:33

the context of. What? Had

10:35

already happened that year, right? So

10:38

by October Six, Twenty Twenty three.

10:41

There. Were like unprecedented levels of violence in

10:43

the West Bank. It was the deadliest

10:45

year on record for Palestinian children, so

10:47

that the student groups were trying to

10:49

talk about the stuff in context. I'm

10:51

and we have in a longstanding tradition

10:53

of anti war and anti Occupation student

10:55

activists on this campus. And.

10:57

Advocacy groups issued this statement. People.

11:00

All over the country started attacking them for

11:02

being anti semitic and a couple of really

11:04

brave and principal colleagues put together an open

11:07

letter to defend our students from his charges

11:09

and this letter said look, we, it's faculty.

11:11

Don't agree with everything my students of sadness

11:13

surly that we support their right to say

11:16

it. Okay, so I signed that letter. Then.

11:20

Several. Faculty members who.

11:22

Ah, Have a track record of

11:25

being really outspoken. Ah,

11:27

In attacking critics of Israel on our campus,

11:29

I'm published a different open letter basically attacking

11:32

all of us, the students who issued a

11:34

statement, the faculty who signed the first letter

11:36

of the like a Nightmare. As soon as

11:38

they issued that second letter calling us all

11:41

out, I started getting harassing. Emails

11:43

from strangers and then.

11:46

One. Day I got. An

11:49

email from a senior colleague senior

11:51

Jewish colleague of would formally been

11:53

a high level administrator. I had

11:55

worked with them when they were

11:57

administrator was a personal note to

11:59

me. Chastising me for

12:01

signing the open letter and basically saying

12:03

all the same stuff that the crazy

12:05

internet trolls were saying, but in much

12:08

more genteel terms. you know, like how

12:10

dare you. To. Send the students

12:12

talking about the October Seventh attacks as

12:14

a military operation rather than an atrocity.

12:17

This kind of thing. And.

12:19

I was. Totally

12:21

bowled over and I started thinking well, you

12:24

know what I've got Tenure. I

12:26

mean, maybe I need to be speaking up. How

12:28

did you hear? the students were gonna be setting

12:30

up an encampment. I didn't. I

12:33

woke up and my phone was full of

12:35

pictures of as enchantments and that was the

12:37

day that University of Leadership was in front

12:39

of Congress. Most you think wow

12:42

I thought you know. Probably. Could

12:44

have seen this coming. To feel necessary at

12:46

that point. You know I

12:48

something that I. Think

12:52

is really important. Is.

12:56

Is. There's a there's a real way

12:58

in which I don't trust my instincts

13:00

about what is necessary for student activists

13:02

to do because I. You.

13:05

Know I'm overly protective of them. Can

13:08

work with kids right? And as

13:11

a faculty member I am an

13:13

institutionalists inevitably to some degree, right?

13:15

So like stuff that with the

13:17

operation, the institution I'm inevitably going

13:20

to have reservations about. The.

13:22

You know, and I'm. And

13:24

I and so I really do

13:26

believe that the students have different

13:29

instincts about things like political and

13:31

moral urgency, and as a professor,

13:33

I think I have a responsibility

13:35

to respect the difference in those

13:37

instincts. Out. Things.

13:41

Inside the encampment seems as

13:43

the protests. At Columbia.more

13:45

media and political attention like initially

13:48

being Kemet was there for a

13:50

couple of days. the cops came

13:52

a broken down. It sprung up

13:55

almost immediately again. Yacht.

13:58

The. first enchantment which went up wow

14:00

our university leadership was in DC,

14:02

was up for about 36 hours. University

14:05

leaders called in the cops before they'd even

14:07

gotten back from DC. And that

14:09

was a small, very organized, very

14:12

focused encampment. You

14:14

know, while the cops were still pouring out their

14:16

coffee on the one lawn, another group of students

14:18

set up a second encampment, and it was immediately

14:20

clear that it was much bigger, it was

14:22

more diverse. Students had really

14:25

been energized by the first one and by the

14:27

police repression. That police repression

14:29

turned up the temperature in all sorts

14:31

of really unhelpful ways. We had all

14:33

these solidarity protests outside the gates. They

14:36

became a kind of a media spectacle. And

14:39

I could see the

14:41

encampment get more organized, more disciplined.

14:43

Yeah, I mean, at the same time,

14:45

this is happening. They're negotiations,

14:48

right? Between the protesters and university?

14:50

I'm going to

14:54

choose my words carefully here. It

14:57

has not been my experience that when

15:00

the university negotiates with student activists, that

15:03

they do so with

15:05

excessive good faith. It

15:09

has been my experience that when the university

15:12

negotiates with student activists, they by

15:14

and large treat the students with contempt and

15:17

only take them seriously when they are forced

15:19

to. You

15:22

know, what happened in recent days is that the

15:24

university made a so-called final

15:26

offer. The students balked

15:28

at it because it was not a great offer.

15:30

The university then made a

15:33

real final offer that was worse, somehow

15:36

expecting the students to take that. And

15:39

then the university pulled the plug

15:41

on negotiations. I think that was, you

15:43

know, that was the state of play by Sunday night. You

15:46

said that a senior figure

15:48

involved in negotiations reported that

15:50

students asked for 30 minutes to consider

15:52

a deal that the university

15:54

had put forward and

15:57

they were refused. That's what

15:59

we heard yesterday. as the cops were massing

16:01

on Broadway and Amsterdam. It's

16:07

never been clear to me how

16:09

genuinely interested the university was in

16:12

negotiation. And it's never been clear

16:14

to me in this whole process when

16:18

the university says either in private

16:20

or in public that certain things

16:22

are not possible. Are

16:24

they talking about not possible according to the laws

16:26

of physics? Or are they talking about not possible

16:28

according to the political will of

16:31

the trustees? Because those are

16:33

two very different things. We'll

16:37

be back after a break. If

16:50

you want to understand what is happening in the

16:52

United States right now, you really need to understand

16:54

what's happening with the courts, the law,

16:56

and the Supreme Court. The

16:58

battle between democracy and whatever this

17:00

cage match is that we're witnessing,

17:03

it's gonna be won and lost at the ballot box,

17:05

but it's also gonna be won and lost in the

17:07

courtrooms. I'm Dahlia Lefkowitz. I

17:09

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new episodes dropping every Saturday morning.

17:43

Can we talk about the occupation of Hamilton Hall? Like

17:47

earlier this week, overnight students barricaded themselves inside.

17:49

It was definitely an

17:51

escalation. Did

17:54

you think about it as an appropriate form of

17:56

protest? Or was it like not even

17:58

possible? part of your

18:00

thinking. You're just like it's an obvious next

18:02

step. I

18:05

have been very clear all

18:07

through this with everyone I talk to

18:09

that I don't think it's very useful

18:11

for me to pass judgment on

18:15

student protesters' tactics. When

18:17

the students say and do things that I don't

18:19

like personally or that I feel

18:21

uncomfortable with or that I think are counterproductive, I

18:23

will reach out to students I have good relationships

18:25

with and say I wish

18:28

you wouldn't do this chant or whatever. But

18:31

I really value my ability to

18:33

maintain relationships of trust with both

18:35

university leaders and with the students.

18:39

One way I maintain those relationships is

18:41

by not trying to make anyone do anything.

18:44

Do you know what I'm saying? I

18:47

share my opinion as a peer and

18:49

I listen. I

18:53

thought that the occupation was incredibly dangerous.

18:56

I thought it endangered all the students there. It endangered

18:59

everyone on campus because police action

19:01

was the obvious response. It endangered

19:04

the faculty observers who

19:07

had no idea what was about to happen and

19:09

were stuck on campus essentially in this

19:13

scenario. And then also I

19:15

thought, gosh, I shouldn't have left those French fries in

19:17

my office trash can because I don't know when I'll

19:19

get back in there to clear it out. The

19:26

university said it had no choice but to call

19:28

the police once the students took over a

19:30

building. It

19:33

sounds like you think it was an

19:35

inevitable choice, but do you think they had

19:37

no choice? Like what if the

19:40

president of Columbia came

19:42

to the encampment, came to the building and

19:45

said, all right, let's talk. Like would that

19:47

have worked? We

19:49

had members of Congress come to the

19:51

encampment and talk to students, but we

19:53

never saw the president of the university

19:55

come down there and talk to them

19:57

in the weeks before the building occupation.

20:00

So, you know, I can

20:02

only dream of what would have happened if anyone

20:04

from the university side had really engaged in good

20:06

faith. The

20:09

university said they had no choice. Look,

20:11

I understand the institutional logic there.

20:13

I understand it's a fire hazard.

20:15

I understand that they had

20:18

a reasonably credible fear

20:20

that there were off-campus folks

20:22

maybe involved. I

20:27

also think that people

20:30

with a lot of power love

20:34

to say they don't have any choice right

20:36

before they do something really harmful. And

20:42

I mean, I thank God every day I'm not

20:44

running the university, but I

20:47

would have liked to think that

20:49

what we saw last night was

20:52

not an option. I

20:54

would have liked to think that every

20:56

possible option would be exhausted before we

20:59

would resort to something like that. How

21:03

has the last year fundamentally altered

21:05

your relationship with the university? You

21:09

know, I have done every major service role in

21:12

my department except chair. I have been on committees

21:14

at every level of

21:16

this university. I

21:19

got tenure the year the pandemic started,

21:22

and I spent a year that was supposed

21:24

to be on sabbatical trying to get

21:27

employment protections, tenure-track protections for untenured

21:30

faculty to mitigate the impact of

21:32

the pandemic. I

21:34

have given this institution so much service because

21:36

I believe in it. I believe in my

21:38

colleagues, and I think that that's

21:40

what being a faculty member means. It means being a citizen

21:43

and contributing and being involved.

21:48

The university's handling of

21:51

the crisis of the last six months,

21:54

and particularly the last few weeks, has

21:56

shaken the world.

22:00

my confidence in the institution to the

22:03

core and has left real

22:05

fissures in my

22:07

ability to trust the

22:09

university. I

22:11

think I am not the only one right now

22:13

asking myself, why

22:15

do I work here? And

22:18

what do I really owe this institution? You

22:20

know, I have an important leadership

22:22

role in our undergraduate curriculum

22:24

right now. And I like and trust the

22:26

dean that I work for. And

22:30

I think of myself as working for him, as

22:35

working for the students we teach, as working for

22:37

the instructors that I supervise. Having

22:47

seen the way my colleagues have been treated over

22:50

the last few months and the way our students have been

22:52

treated, I just

22:57

don't know who I'm working for anymore. What

23:00

happens now? I mean, we've talked about

23:03

how there was a police response to

23:05

the first encampment. It logically

23:07

led to the next encampment, which was bigger.

23:11

You've talked about how the occupation

23:13

of Hamilton Hall was an escalation

23:15

that you also thought was inevitable,

23:18

given how the university was responding to

23:20

the protesters. So

23:24

what's the next inevitable

23:27

escalation? Or is there

23:29

one? Like, are you thinking through that?

23:33

I mean, I don't know what happens with the

23:35

protest movement. I, you know,

23:37

if the students had walked away three days ago,

23:41

I would have called it a victory. They

23:43

ignited a national movement. They

23:46

laid bare all the contradictions and

23:48

BS from this institution

23:50

about its priorities. And,

23:56

you know, I don't

23:59

even know. How. Do we got

24:01

cops on campus for the next three weeks?

24:04

I. Don't know for. The

24:06

the express purpose of that is the

24:09

have no more political activity on this

24:11

campus until graduation as over. But.

24:15

Look the. You. Know. It.

24:17

Took years to get divestment from South

24:20

Africa. From. When the foods

24:22

for started protesting but they got it. And.

24:25

Those. Moves take many different

24:27

forms and I think faculty understands now

24:30

how involved we have to be as

24:32

parts of the struggle on campus that

24:34

really have to happen. Faculty Governance for

24:37

news. You.

24:40

Know a week ago. I

24:43

was told people. I

24:46

was serious with our university leaders

24:48

handled Congress. I was furious with

24:50

how they called the cops the

24:53

first time. But

24:55

I am not interested in calling for

24:57

to present to resign. A

25:00

because I think leadership is a larger

25:02

group of people than just the president,

25:04

but be because I'm not interested in

25:06

our president losing her job. In a

25:08

context where the Chris refers and of

25:10

Virginia foxes of the World. Are.

25:12

Actively trying to get women presidents of Ivy League

25:14

universities fired, right? So I don't want to give

25:17

them another not on their belt and I want

25:19

to give them that power of the institution. In

25:21

Virginia Foxx is a Congresswoman and Christopher's

25:24

the activists him. Ignited

25:26

the firestorm against yeah, yeah. But.

25:29

Look, Barnard College just had a

25:31

historic unprecedented vote of no confidence

25:33

in their President. I

25:36

mean that Columbia University Senate passed a

25:39

resolution basically condemning all the errors of

25:41

our university leadership at stopping short of

25:43

censure or no confidence and thing like

25:46

that. After. The

25:48

first police action and before the second

25:50

police action. So. I

25:52

think maybe we see what happens when

25:54

you pull your punches on expressing your

25:57

disapproval. So. you're changing

25:59

your mind It's not that I'm

26:01

changing my mind. I still feel like I

26:03

don't want these right-wing bad actors to be

26:05

able to take credit for getting a president

26:07

fired. But what

26:10

I'm saying is that the faculty sentiment

26:12

overall, it's

26:14

just the horse is out of the barn, you know?

26:17

Like, I have heard faculty today

26:19

who I've never heard of talk about this

26:21

stuff, talking about no confidence, talking about the

26:23

president has to resign, talking about the whole

26:25

board of trustees has to go. There

26:29

is a real rift here, and like

26:31

I said, this is a rift that

26:33

opened in November, and every step since then

26:35

has just widened it and widened it and widened it. And

26:37

now we see where that gets us. It

26:40

gets us to leadership with a kind of

26:42

total lack of values or principles around what

26:44

a university actually is. And

26:47

it gets us, you know, hundreds of cops in riot gear

26:49

kicking students down the stairs in the building where I work.

26:52

So I truly

26:55

don't know what happens next. Are

26:58

you going to graduation? Well,

27:00

I mean, you know, for

27:02

the past two weeks, university leaders have been winding

27:04

themselves up to do what they did the other

27:07

night by saying we have to have a graduation.

27:09

We have to have a normal graduation. This year's

27:11

graduating class had their high school graduation disrupted by

27:13

pandemic. They deserve a real graduation.

27:15

And look, I'm not arguing with

27:19

any student who wants to have a real

27:21

in-person graduation. I think graduation is lovely. But

27:24

are any of us going to feel like this

27:26

is a normal graduation this year? You

27:28

know, if we have graduation

27:31

on campus this year, like we normally do,

27:34

everyone sitting on the south lawn west

27:37

is going to be sitting on

27:39

artificial floor laid over grass

27:41

that right now is patterned

27:44

with dozens of yellow rectangles from

27:46

where the Gaza Solidarity Encampment was.

27:50

Everyone's going to be sitting there for graduation on

27:53

the same lawn where

27:56

peaceful student protesters were dragged out by

27:58

riot cops last night. while student

28:00

journalists were locked in the journalism school under

28:02

threat of arrest if they came out to

28:04

document the scene. So,

28:08

gosh, I guess I hope that feels normal to some

28:10

people. I

28:12

don't know what to say. Joe

28:16

Howley, I'm really grateful for your time. Thanks for your

28:18

interest. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you. Joe

28:22

Howley is an Associate Professor in

28:24

the Classics Department at Columbia University.

28:29

And that is our show. If

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