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US to H 2023. Results may

1:00

vary not endorsement of

1:03

the restrictions applied. Some

1:05

30,000 migrants waiting in

1:07

Mexico had appointments on

1:09

the books to meet

1:11

with U.S. immigration officials

1:14

in hopes of claiming

1:16

asylum. So we decided

1:18

without knowing what would

1:20

happen, what would be the

1:22

fate of the program itself

1:24

to see if migrants were

1:26

still going to show up

1:28

for their appointments and what

1:30

would happen if they tried

1:32

to go up on the

1:34

bridge. She had a hunch

1:36

that led her to spend

1:38

inauguration day in Ciudad Juarez,

1:40

a Mexican border town just

1:42

across from El Paso, Texas.

1:44

Leading up to inauguration day,

1:47

what was the mood like

1:49

for the people waiting for

1:51

their appointments? For the individuals

1:54

that I spoke to and spent some

1:56

time with early on Monday, there was

1:58

sort of a tent. optimism, they

2:00

were abiding by the

2:02

faith that if the United

2:05

States had given them

2:07

this date for their appointment,

2:09

this long -awaited appointment, that

2:11

the United States government

2:13

would indeed honor that. But

2:15

every single one of

2:17

those people knew and understood

2:20

that there was a

2:22

possibility that their appointments would

2:24

not be honored. That

2:28

possibility turned into reality starting

2:30

pretty much the minute Donald Trump

2:32

took over. And the way

2:34

that nearly everyone found out was

2:36

on an app, specifically the

2:38

CBP -1 app. In an effort

2:40

to discourage asylum seekers from crossing

2:43

the border outside of official

2:45

ports of entry, the Biden administration

2:47

had made everyone download the

2:49

app to secure an appointment with

2:51

immigration officials. So around 10

2:53

a .m. Mountain Time, I started

2:55

hearing from folks different sources that

2:57

it appeared as though the

2:59

app had been canceled. At that

3:02

moment I was spending time

3:04

with a young man named Lidl

3:06

Jimenez from Cuba who had

3:08

an appointment for 1 p .m.

3:10

I asked Lidl to then open

3:12

his CBP -1 app and see

3:14

what message he was getting. And

3:18

he opened it up and that's

3:20

when we saw the message that said,

3:22

you know, that appointments have been

3:24

canceled and that your appointment time is

3:26

no longer valid. It was sort

3:28

of a suspended animation, if you will,

3:30

where everyone was just on their

3:32

phones trying to verify, trying to see

3:35

if they could get back into

3:37

the app. And when it dawned on

3:39

them that this was real and

3:41

that the 11 a .m. hour came

3:43

and they went up the bridge and

3:45

talked to CBP officials is when

3:47

you started seeing the breakdown, the emotional

3:49

breakdown. Many of these

3:52

breakdowns were caught on camera.

3:54

This is Marjelyce Tinoco. She'd

3:56

been kidnapped and ransomed twice

3:58

while waiting to enter the the

4:04

U .S. What

4:16

do Mar -Helice and her family, what

4:18

are they planning to do from this

4:20

point on? Mar -Helice is

4:22

Colombian -born but she's lived in Venezuela

4:24

for the past three decades, raised

4:26

her son there, met her husband there.

4:28

So they're from Venezuela. They

4:31

don't think they can go back. They

4:33

don't have money to travel back

4:35

to Mexico City where they had been.

4:37

So right now they're just kind

4:39

of stuck. But I think the vast

4:41

majority of your folks are going

4:43

to wait it out to see what

4:45

happens. The the other option being trying

4:47

to do it illegally. But there

4:49

are inheritance with that as well.

4:52

Even though the right to claim

4:54

asylum is baked into both U

4:56

.S. and international law, with Trump's

4:58

executive orders coming down, it's

5:00

not clear how long that will last.

5:03

There is something to be said

5:05

about whether the right to asylum

5:07

at the U .S. Mexico border will

5:09

persist in the new Trump administration.

5:15

The optics of migrants

5:17

having their chances at

5:19

legal entry to the

5:21

United States thwarted. It

5:24

certainly plays into the

5:26

perceived result that many, many

5:28

people who voted for

5:30

Trump wanted to see happen.

5:32

They wanted to see

5:34

this flow stop. They wanted

5:36

immigrants and illegal, legal,

5:38

otherwise to think twice before

5:40

asking to enter the

5:43

country or trying to enter

5:45

the country. But I

5:47

also think it was a

5:49

rude awakening for people

5:51

who probably didn't understand immigration

5:53

all that well, know

5:55

about what all this meant and how

5:57

it's really affecting real

5:59

people. and the processes that

6:02

they had hope would

6:04

bring them opportunity in

6:06

the United States. Today

6:08

on the show, is

6:10

the U.S.-Mexico border closed?

6:12

I'm Rob Gunther in

6:14

for Mary Harris. You're

6:16

listening to what next?

6:19

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8:02

day after Donald Trump announced

8:04

a blitz of immigration -related executive

8:07

orders, this preacher, right

8:09

-reverend Mary Ann Edgar Buddy,

8:11

went viral. She

8:18

delivered the sermon at Trump's National

8:20

Prayer Service. Trump, his

8:22

kids, J .D. and Usha Vance, they

8:25

were all sitting right up front. And

8:27

Reverend Buddy used that moment to

8:29

plead with him, to have mercy

8:31

on LGBTQ young people

8:34

and on immigrants. And

8:36

the people, the people who

8:38

pick our crops and clean our

8:40

office buildings, who labor in

8:42

poultry farms and meat packing plants,

8:44

who wash the dishes after

8:46

we eat in restaurants and work

8:48

the night shifts in hospitals,

8:50

they may not be safe. But

8:57

the vast majority of immigrants who

8:59

are not criminals. The

9:02

moment came the same day

9:04

Trump's Department of Homeland Security announced

9:06

it was revoking a Biden -era

9:09

policy that stopped ICE from

9:11

raiding hospitals, schools, and churches. Independent

9:14

journalist Jose Olivares has covered

9:16

immigration for years. He

9:19

says the whole thing just underscored. Mercy?

9:22

Sanctuary? They're not what Trump is

9:24

going for. What's significant is that

9:26

churches have historically been seen as

9:28

a safe space for immigrants to

9:30

go and to worship and to

9:32

seek refuge as well. We saw

9:34

under the first Trump administration how

9:36

a lot of these churches were

9:38

being used by undocumented folks to

9:40

take refuge and to shield themselves

9:42

from immigration enforcement activities. But now

9:44

Trump has reversed that. And he's

9:46

allowing federal immigration agents to enter

9:48

these sensitive locations. And essentially the

9:50

message that the Department of Homeland

9:52

Security is sending now is that

9:54

if you're undocumented, you're not safe

9:57

anywhere. You're not safe in a

9:59

school. You're not safe in

10:01

a church. You're not safe in

10:03

a hospital. We have the

10:05

ability to enter these so -called

10:07

sensitive locations and conduct enforcement operations

10:09

here." So much of the

10:11

pushback during the first Trump administration

10:13

had to do with so -called

10:15

sanctuary cities, right? It was

10:17

always a thing that the president

10:19

invoked as a reason why

10:21

his immigration policies weren't being fully

10:23

implemented. He's threatening

10:25

a similar crackdown on Democratic cities

10:27

this time around. Do you know

10:29

what's happening here? Yes. So sanctuary

10:31

jurisdictions, essentially what they mean is

10:34

that local officials, whether they be

10:36

state police officers or local sheriff's

10:38

departments or local police departments, if

10:40

they arrest someone for a minor

10:42

crime, they won't necessarily contact ICE,

10:44

right? It doesn't mean that ICE

10:46

is not allowed to conduct its

10:48

work. It doesn't mean that ICE

10:51

is not allowed to make arrests

10:53

and put people in deportation proceedings.

10:55

It just means that local jurisdictions,

10:57

local police departments, local sheriff's departments

10:59

don't necessarily contact ICE whenever there

11:01

is a minor crime that is

11:03

committed by unidoculated immigrants, right? Now,

11:06

what we're seeing with one

11:08

of these executive orders that Trump

11:10

passed is that he's threatening

11:12

to bar any federal funds from

11:15

sanctuary jurisdictions. The Trump administration

11:17

is also threatening to undertake any

11:19

civil or criminal action if

11:21

this local jurisdiction interferes with federal

11:23

immigration law. Not only that,

11:25

we're also going to be seeing

11:27

with one of these executive

11:29

orders how local police departments and

11:32

local sheriff's departments can essentially

11:34

receive the permission from federal immigration

11:36

agents to conduct anti -immigrant operations

11:38

as well and to act

11:40

as federal immigration agents. Both revoking

11:42

the sensitive locations policy and

11:44

targeting so -called sanctuary cities are

11:47

sure to result in footage of

11:49

uniformed officers conducting raids, people

11:51

thrown out of their homes, even

11:53

children pulled out of classrooms.

11:55

Jose says those images are kind

11:57

of the point. we're

12:00

going to be seeing a tremendous PR. show

12:02

from not just the Trump administration, but from

12:04

right wing outlets that are aligned with Trump,

12:06

we're going to be seeing how they are

12:09

going to continue to push this narrative of

12:11

how dangerous migrants are of the invasion, pet

12:13

migrants are supposedly taking part in as they

12:15

enter the US, right? And all of this

12:17

is to justify a lot of these executive

12:19

orders and a lot of the right wing

12:22

policies that are being put in place by

12:24

the Trump administration. We're seeing how Trump has

12:26

called the situation at the border a national

12:28

emergency, how he wants to protect against

12:30

a so-a-called... We saw this week, how

12:32

with one of the executive borders, Trump

12:35

has called for a national emergency and

12:37

is using it to send the military

12:39

to the border. And, you know, he's

12:41

saying he wants to seal the border,

12:44

to repel mass migration, right? Those are

12:46

the words, exact words he's using in

12:48

his executive orders, to police and do

12:50

border security, to beef up surveillance, right?

12:53

And this is not necessarily new, right?

12:55

He declared it a national emergency in

12:57

2019, and unlocked federal funds to further

13:00

construct the border I think what we're

13:02

seeing now with these executive orders

13:04

is a much more forceful and

13:06

quick approach to immigration enforcement in

13:08

the US. And I think that

13:10

combined with the sort of PR

13:13

efforts, not just by the Trump

13:15

administration, but by right-wing media that

13:17

supports him, I think we're going

13:19

to continue to see how these

13:21

very heavy-handed, essentially militarized approaches to

13:23

immigration are going to be justified

13:25

in this way. You talked about the

13:28

declaration of a national emergency.

13:30

I'm wondering, do we know exactly what

13:32

the emergency is? Has that been

13:34

defined? You know, according to Trump

13:36

and people who are aligned with

13:39

Trump, they're saying that the national

13:41

emergency is the high number of

13:43

immigrants who are reaching the border

13:45

and requesting asylum or are reaching

13:47

the border and crossing between ports

13:49

of entry and entering illegally into

13:52

the US, right? And so even though

13:54

it's not necessarily new, he's saying

13:56

that because immigrants and asylum seekers

13:58

are reaching the US border, of

14:00

entry and between the country illegally,

14:02

he's saying it's a national

14:04

emergency. A lot of this is

14:06

also tied in with, you know,

14:08

the Trump and Republican camp, their

14:10

equation of migrants and Latin American

14:13

organized crime. A lot of it

14:15

also has to do with

14:17

using the fentanyl crisis as justification

14:19

to continue to do these heavy -handed

14:21

immigration policy approaches. It's just this

14:23

also very right -wing, this coded

14:25

language equating immigrants and asylum seekers

14:27

with organized crime that that

14:29

is coming from from Latin America. Needless

14:32

to say, on top of all these

14:34

additional new measures, we're also going to

14:36

be seeing a resumption of border wall

14:38

building, right? Absolutely. Yeah, there's

14:40

no question about it that they're going to

14:42

be continuing with constructing the border wall,

14:44

right? But let's also remember that some of

14:46

the construction of the border wall also

14:48

took place under the Biden administration, even though

14:50

he promised that was going to end.

14:52

We did see some of the border wall

14:54

continue to be constructed under the Biden

14:56

administration. And so we can critique Trump as

14:58

much as we want, as we rightly

15:00

should. But I think we should also level

15:02

some of those critiques at the Democrats

15:04

and at the Biden administration for not necessarily

15:06

doing enough to prevent these sort of

15:08

extreme right -wing anti -immigrant policies from

15:11

being put into place. After

15:16

the break, the wave of executive

15:18

orders and how they might actually

15:20

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17:42

Podcast. if

18:08

it is or isn't legal, even if it

18:10

ultimately gets tied up in the courts, what

18:13

kind of chaos are we going to

18:15

see this policy produce in the

18:17

meantime? I mean, I think it's

18:19

important to note that over 20

18:21

states have filed the lawsuits, including

18:23

DC and San Francisco also in

18:25

addition to the 2022 states have

18:27

filed a lawsuit saying that this

18:30

policy, this executive order violates the

18:32

14th amendment. And what it does

18:34

is it refuses to recognize U

18:36

.S. citizenship for children born in

18:38

the U .S. to mothers who are

18:40

in the country illegally or who

18:42

are here temporarily, such as visa

18:44

holders. So people with student visas,

18:46

people with H1B visas, if they

18:48

give birth to a child, that child

18:50

under this executive order would not qualify

18:52

for U .S. citizenship. And so what are

18:54

the chilling effects that we can see

18:56

from this? I think that still remains

18:59

to be seen, but I think they're

19:01

going to be quite significant. Will hospitals,

19:03

will local officials now be deputized in

19:05

order to screen people to see if

19:07

they're here legally or not, or have

19:09

temporary visas or not? That remains to

19:11

be seen how this is going to

19:13

be actually put into place. But again,

19:15

I think the logistics of it maybe

19:17

don't necessarily matter as much as the chilling

19:19

effect and the fear that it's going to

19:21

be felt throughout the country with immigrant communities. So

19:25

another one of the orders that falls under

19:27

the is this legal umbrella, the partial

19:29

suspension of the asylum and refugee

19:31

programs, the U .S. Refugee Admissions Program

19:33

has been suspended for at least

19:35

120 days, and asylum policies have

19:37

been tightened. But refresh my memory, the

19:39

right to seek asylum is enshrined not

19:42

just in U .S. law, but in

19:44

international law. That's correct. So the right

19:46

to seek asylum is an international law that

19:48

is recognized by countries around the world. So

19:50

if you're fleeing persecution, if you're fleeing violence,

19:52

you can request asylum at certain countries, and

19:54

then the individual countries will decide if they

19:56

want to grant you asylum or not through

19:58

their own processes. And now this

20:00

also coincides with the suspension of the

20:03

refugee program. So we're seeing one of

20:05

these executive orders has suspended the U.S.

20:07

refugee admissions program, right? And it's significant

20:09

because refugees who are not, who don't

20:12

qualify the same as asylum seekers, right?

20:14

I think it's important to recognize that

20:16

it's a different process. But many refugees

20:18

who are fleeing climate change, wars, etc.

20:20

Maybe even folks who worked with the

20:23

U. U.S. government as translators and interpreters

20:25

and war zones who might qualify to

20:27

be refugees. admitted to the U.S. as

20:29

refugees, right? And so I think this

20:32

is significant because it's not just an

20:34

attack on asylum rights, it's also an

20:36

attack on refugee rights, right, which are

20:38

separate things. We're seeing also as part

20:41

of this how the Trump administration is

20:43

terminating a parole program that provided another

20:45

legal pathway to entry for Cubans, Haitians,

20:47

Nicaragans, and Venezuelaans. These certain countries within

20:50

the Western Hemisphere that are seen by

20:52

the U.S. government as, you know, being

20:54

ruled by political adversaries or like in

20:56

Haiti, just have really tremendous conflicts and

20:58

problems there. And so I think it

21:01

remains to be seen exactly what the

21:03

chilling effects of this will be. But

21:05

the suspension of the US refugee admissions

21:07

program is a certainly significant step. And

21:10

so after 90 days, the Trump administration

21:12

is going to review it and they're

21:14

going to decide whether they want to

21:16

start it again, but still even. this

21:19

90-day period of the suspension will be

21:21

significant for many refugees who already made

21:23

plans to enter the US or were

21:25

already on their way to enter the

21:28

US as refugees. Trump has been very

21:30

insistent on the campaign trail that the

21:32

first group of immigrants he wants to

21:34

deport and target are criminals. So one

21:36

of these executive orders designates drug cartels

21:39

and international gangs as global terrorists. It's

21:41

supposed to, I guess, facilitate the use

21:43

of existing anti-terrorism laws against them. What

21:45

does that mean for immigration? What does

21:48

that mean for the United States' war

21:50

on drugs? So this executive order that

21:52

will designate Mexican carts... tells

21:54

as terrorists is really

21:57

significant. And there

21:59

are so many questions

22:01

here. I think

22:03

it's important to note

22:06

that these executive

22:08

orders, I think they

22:10

lack a fundamental understanding of how

22:12

these organized crime groups function,

22:14

right? You know, cartels, they're

22:16

painted in the media as, you

22:18

know, these very homogenous groups of armed

22:20

men with big hats and big

22:22

belts and they have guns and you

22:24

know, they shoot and they traffic

22:27

drugs and that's it, right? But I

22:29

think it's important to understand that

22:31

these organizations are businesses. They're sprawling networks.

22:33

They have teams of attorneys, accountants,

22:35

gunmen, drug runners. They have people from

22:37

top -level negotiators who wear suits and

22:39

ties and meet at fancy restaurants

22:41

to negotiate drug trafficking. To the bottom

22:44

-level folks who are children acting as

22:46

scouts. It's important to recognize that organized

22:48

crime is one of the largest

22:50

private employers in Mexico. And so adding

22:52

them to the terror list, like

22:54

what is the extent of this? What

22:56

is this going to look like?

22:58

Are only the top -level leaders of

23:00

these cartels going to be classified as

23:02

terrorists? Or is it everybody and

23:04

anybody in any organization that supports them?

23:06

And what about people who are

23:08

extorted by organized crime groups, right? If

23:10

they are paying money in order

23:12

to be released from being kidnapped or

23:14

whatever, would that then

23:16

make them liable or get

23:18

them into trouble for supporting

23:21

a terrorist organization? We

23:23

just don't know that. There are so

23:25

many questions here but it's something

23:27

that is very, very worrisome. Not just

23:29

for asylum seekers and immigrants, but

23:31

also for just international relations with the

23:33

US and Mexico and other countries. I

23:37

feel like for every executive order that I brought

23:39

up, the answer ultimately comes back to there

23:41

are so many questions. We just have to

23:43

wait and see how this plays out. But in

23:45

the meantime, immigration enforcement is

23:47

still going to be out there

23:49

doing its job. What are the rules

23:51

that they are going to be operating by? Are they

23:53

just going to be assuming the will or an intent

23:55

of the president? How is this going to work? I

23:58

think it's important to recognize that. ICE as an

24:00

agency, they are the ones that

24:02

are in charge of conducting raids,

24:05

of arresting people, etc. I think

24:07

what we're seeing with these executive

24:09

orders from Trump is that now

24:11

local law enforcement is going to

24:13

have more power to also conduct

24:15

immigration operations in conjunction and in

24:17

partnership with ICE. We're going to

24:19

be seeing a heightened use of

24:21

raids, right? We're going to see

24:23

more raids from ICE at certain

24:25

workplaces targeting large groups of undocumented

24:28

folks who might be working at

24:30

factories, at farms, etc. What we're

24:32

going to be seeing is a

24:34

heightening of these operations of these

24:36

deportations, thanks to these executive orders.

24:38

But let's remember that deportations and

24:40

ICE's work has been ongoing, regardless

24:42

of presidential administration. We saw within

24:44

Biden's last year in office, the

24:46

Biden administration extended contracts for private

24:49

immigration jails that are used by

24:51

ICE to detain import immigrants, right?

24:53

Although we're going to be seeing

24:55

a heightened approach to immigration enforcement

24:57

under the Trump administration, it is

24:59

a bipartisan thing. Yeah. Trump has

25:01

promised to stop all illegal entry

25:03

into the United States immediately upon

25:05

taking office. The people scheduling appointments

25:07

through the CBP1 app, for instance,

25:09

they did so legally, they were

25:12

explicitly seeking legal entry. What does

25:14

this move, for example, if you

25:16

take this one move, what does

25:18

that tell you about? where his

25:20

priorities lie here. Yeah, I mean,

25:22

I think it's interesting to listen

25:24

to his rhetoric saying that he

25:26

wants to stop the illegal flows

25:28

of undocumented folks. What's going to

25:30

happen now with these executive orders

25:32

is that the illegal entry of

25:35

folks into the US is going

25:37

to rise, right? If people are

25:39

not able to enter the US

25:41

through legal means by requesting asylum,

25:43

by scheduling appointments through the CBP1

25:45

app, to meet with immigration judges,

25:47

to meet with asylum officers, people

25:49

are desperate. We have to recognize

25:51

that people migrate. People leave their

25:53

home countries not because they want

25:55

to, but because they are for

25:58

to do so. If you block

26:00

the legal access to enter the

26:02

US, people are going to go

26:04

through the illegal access. They're

26:06

going to go through between ports

26:08

of entry. They're going to be

26:10

looking to human smuggling organizations and

26:13

organized crime groups to help them

26:15

enter the US and be smuggled

26:17

into the US. The effect that

26:19

the Trump administration executive orders

26:21

are going to have is

26:23

not going to help the

26:25

situation. from the Trump-aligned people's

26:27

perspective, it's only going to

26:29

make the situation worse. Jose Olivares,

26:32

thank you so much for your

26:34

time, really grateful. Thank you so

26:36

much for having me, Rob. Jose

26:38

Olivares is an investigative

26:40

journalist, an immigration reporter,

26:42

and Aureliz Hernandez is

26:44

an immigration reporter at the

26:47

Washington Post based in Texas. And

26:49

that's the show. A quick heads-up.

26:51

This week, our sister show, What

26:53

Next TB. Is launching a new

26:55

series. It's called The Discourse. Every

26:57

week Lizzio Leary sits down with

26:59

one of Slate's tech experts to

27:01

talk about the news that's burning

27:03

up our feeds. This week, they

27:05

kick things off with Elon Musk

27:07

and his inauguration hand gestures. But

27:09

here's the thing. You can only

27:11

hear the discourse on Slate Plus.

27:14

You can join Slate Plus directly

27:16

from the What Next TV Show

27:18

page on Apple podcast and Spotify,

27:20

or visit slate.com/TV Plus.

27:22

to get access wherever

27:24

you listen. What Next is produced

27:27

by Paige Osburne, Elena Schwartz, Anna

27:29

Phillips, and Madeline Dusharm. Ben Richmond

27:31

is the senior director of podcast

27:33

operations here at Sleet. And I'm

27:35

Rob Gunther, in for Mary Harris.

27:37

Find me on Blue Sky. I'm

27:39

at One Rob Gunther. Thanks for

27:41

listening. Talk to you soon.