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0:58

A lot of politicians, if

1:00

they're accusing like the Pelosi

1:02

or the Clinton class, really

1:05

don't know what ordinary people

1:07

are feeling, right? And for some

1:09

reason, he's able to be tuning in

1:11

the culture wars in ways that

1:14

like surprised me. He's currently online.

1:16

Yes, he is. Let me tell you

1:18

what the through line is for me

1:20

that resolves, I would say about 80%

1:22

of this for me. And I'm like

1:24

you. I've spent a lot, a lot,

1:27

a lot of time thinking about this.

1:29

and kind of like holding that voter

1:31

up in like perverse fascination like what's

1:33

happening there and I do think your

1:35

point gets at it Trevor which is

1:37

I'm not sure that understand is the

1:39

right word. I don't think you need

1:42

to understand to act. Yeah.

1:44

To be able to observe something

1:46

accurately doesn't mean you diagnose it

1:48

properly. Yes, that's what I mean. Right?

1:51

He is the only politician out there

1:53

right now who says a thing is

1:55

a thing. Thank you. That's what

1:57

I mean. That doesn't mean that.

1:59

This is what I need. He

2:02

came here to be on my

2:04

side. No, I'm not on side.

2:06

No, no, no. This is what

2:09

Tracy does brilliantly. She articulates an

2:11

idea in the most crystal way

2:14

possible. It's exactly this. This is

2:16

what now? With Trevanoa. This episode

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episode is brought to you by

2:54

National Education Association. AnyAs read across

2:56

America campaign celebrates a nation of

2:59

diverse readers with recommended books, authors

3:01

and teaching resources that promote diversity

3:03

and inclusion. However, certain politicians are

3:06

banning books with characters representing diverse

3:08

perspectives and experiences, including books about

3:10

Martin Luther King and the Trail

3:13

of Tears. But let's be honest.

3:15

All students deserve access to diverse,

3:17

age-appropriate books. So, help us celebrate.

3:20

and protect the joy of reading

3:22

for all of America's students. Learn

3:24

more at read across america.org. Trump

3:27

brought Elon Musk to the White

3:29

House or Elon Musk brought Trump

3:32

to the White House. Depending on

3:34

how you want to, depending on

3:36

where you think the power lies,

3:39

right? So Elon Musk is there

3:41

and Trump's there, they bring a

3:43

Tesla, and Trump's like, I'm buying

3:46

a Tesla with my own money,

3:48

and we're guys, nobody believes. And

3:50

the man did a full-on infomercial.

3:53

Someone took a picture of Trump's

3:55

notes. He was he was handed

3:58

the sales notes. Yeah, so the

4:00

price of each car with self-drive

4:02

And then like a little asterisk

4:05

like terms and conditions at the

4:07

bottom. Yeah, please self-drive is free

4:09

It just needs to be activated

4:12

on all of the cars this

4:14

car cost this much that one

4:16

cost this much for low zero

4:19

APR for 36 months. I'm like

4:21

this is the president of the

4:24

United States Yep Shilling cars on

4:26

the front. You know what it

4:28

was for me if Trump had

4:31

even a modicum of panache He

4:33

would have brought it as more

4:35

of a, this is American ingenuity.

4:38

That's what's supposed to happen, that's

4:40

right. Yes, you go. Yeah. I

4:42

just wanted to take a moment

4:45

to show you why America is

4:47

great. Yeah. And you know, Elon,

4:49

here, like, just like, you know,

4:52

just try and find in South

4:54

Africa, we used to say like,

4:57

desist, it means like, it's almost

4:59

like, find a way to like,

5:01

it's like just a little opaque.

5:04

Yeah. This man, full on. for

5:06

this low price, one time after.

5:08

And then he gets, guys, at

5:11

this moment, you know, Trump, only

5:13

Donald Trump, he gets in the

5:15

car. He gets, so the car

5:18

is there, the car is on

5:20

the lawn. The cause, like, you

5:23

know, the front of the White

5:25

House, I guess is where this

5:27

is, right? So the cars there,

5:30

they pulled it up. Yeah. and

5:32

then they get in, right? And

5:34

Trump goes, first of all, Trump's

5:37

like, no, I can't drive, I'm

5:39

not, because I'm not allowed to

5:41

drive, I wanna be like, can

5:44

you drive? I don't think that

5:46

they can drive. He's like, I

5:49

would drive, but I can't, they

5:51

don't love me, not allowed, no

5:53

drive, to drive, to drive, does

5:56

this whole thing. They get in

5:58

the car, he looks at. the

6:00

instrument panel and exclaims like somebody

6:02

who has discovered a new old

6:05

he's like wow it's all computer

6:07

guys he says it's all computer

6:09

so he's never been in a

6:11

Tesla yeah but he doesn't say

6:13

it's all digital no it's all

6:15

computer like it's all computer like

6:18

it's all computer it's all computer

6:20

yeah they put computer in car and

6:22

he shouts it out to us like

6:24

we don't know yeah uh-huh yeah

6:26

it's all computer wow you look

6:28

instead all computer Yep, that's the man

6:31

with the nuclear codes for you. Yeah,

6:33

actually I felt more calm I was like

6:35

I actually don't mind if he had

6:37

the nuclear codes because if a man

6:39

calls a computer If the car is

6:41

old computer that man cannot launch anything

6:43

You know who's sitting somewhere right now

6:46

going are you? kidding me? It is

6:48

Hillary Clinton. Do you remember when they

6:50

made fun of her because she couldn't

6:52

work the soda machine in a

6:54

convenience store? I don't remember. Was

6:56

that one of the campaign trail? Yes,

6:59

campaign trail. So you know, America, you

7:01

know, being a regular American. So they

7:04

go to like a 7-Eleven. And I

7:06

always felt sorry for her because

7:08

I do think those machines actually overly

7:10

complicated. And I really felt... a rare

7:12

moment of deep empathy for Hillary Roddham

7:15

Clinton because she was like, she's got

7:17

her cup, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

7:19

And it used to be a physical

7:21

thing. You'd press that, believe that, right?

7:24

Well, that's not, no more. You know

7:26

that thing now to spin your cup

7:28

and it does and you mix and

7:31

flavors and all that. And she was

7:33

overwhelmed. And they acted like that woman

7:35

had lost her mind. Yes. Double double

7:38

standard. To be honest with you.

7:40

I think every other politician gets nailed

7:42

for the smallest things, eating pizza with

7:44

a knife and fork. Who's the guy

7:47

who's screaming, yeah! Oh, Howard Dean! More

7:49

Howard Dean. It doesn't matter if you're

7:51

a man or woman. Binders full of

7:54

women. Women. You name it. You get,

7:56

Trump has some, that's why they call

7:58

him the Teflon Don. and does things

8:00

that no other person could do. Guys,

8:03

there is no one who could maintain

8:05

the level of respect that he will

8:07

still maintain from his people after getting

8:09

in a car and saying it's all

8:11

computer. Yeah, I agree. If my six

8:13

year old or seven year old said

8:15

that I would be slightly disappointed because

8:18

I'll go, but you know that that's

8:20

not how you say it. I would

8:22

get them assessed. I'd be like, let

8:24

me get you a second, let me

8:26

get you a second, let's find out

8:28

what's going on here. Yeah, because baby,

8:30

you've seen the tablet. Yeah, you know,

8:33

that's what I mean. Yeah, yeah, but

8:35

also for me it was also the,

8:37

it's because of how Trump likes to

8:39

paint himself as the pinnacle of evolution,

8:41

you know, I don't know why I

8:43

get I get hung up on these

8:45

things more than I do on him

8:48

dismantling democracy, because that to me is

8:50

almost obvious. Like he's just doing it,

8:52

he's doing it. And he said he's

8:54

going to do it. Yes, he said

8:56

he's going to do it and then

8:58

he's doing it. Yeah. But then there

9:00

are the small elements where he gets

9:03

exposed for not being what he pretends

9:05

to be in upper society. Like when

9:07

they asked him about immigration and he

9:09

said, he said, we need to be

9:11

bringing experts. I was like, you mean

9:13

a somelier? Like, if you're an upper

9:16

society, if you are up in that

9:18

world, you don't say a wine expert.

9:20

Right. Do you know what I mean?

9:22

Yeah. My quote from him is when

9:24

he said, People are dying who have

9:26

never died before. Okay, but to be

9:28

fair, as a black American, I love

9:31

that one. Let me just tell you.

9:33

The number of times I've heard an

9:35

old black woman say, they die like

9:37

they never died before. I thought, okay,

9:39

well now that one, I think that's

9:41

my family. People are dying who have

9:43

never died before. Yeah, that one, yeah,

9:46

we have a deep funeral culture where

9:48

I'm from. And I was like, I

9:50

could see that one poppingpping off. I'm

9:52

a little obsessed with these moments where

9:54

he's clearly revealed. And I think a

9:56

lot about why didn't that work? Why

9:58

didn't that work? Because the great story

10:01

to me of Donald Trump is, you

10:03

know, he's New York's version of a

10:05

country bumpkin. Yes. He's not a Manhattanite.

10:07

He was never accepted here. That's what

10:09

a lot of his grudge is about.

10:11

He learned, however, that if he just

10:13

win enough, they will at least give

10:16

you a ticket. He knows he's not

10:18

invited because they like him. But you

10:20

know he learned that and I think

10:22

he just got still and I hate

10:24

all the psychological explanations. Why? Why do

10:26

you hate them? Oh, you know, because

10:28

I just think it's very American about

10:31

it. Yes, that's part of it. This

10:33

is absolutely professional envy. But because psychologists

10:35

keep winning and I'm not sure they

10:37

got all the answers. You know what

10:39

I'm saying? But I also think this

10:41

like very American of us to think

10:44

that, oh, it's only true if he

10:46

really meant it. if there's something deep

10:48

inside. Oh, okay. And I'm like, it

10:50

doesn't matter whether he means it. It

10:52

matters that he does it. And I'm

10:54

like, you know, I don't really care

10:56

if it's because he's insecure or heavy.

10:59

Lots of people are insecure and they

11:01

still don't do horrible things to people.

11:03

So I think we can claim. overrely

11:05

on psychology to excuse away bad behavior,

11:07

especially in politics. I'm like, does it

11:09

really matter if he really hates trans

11:11

people? Yeah, yeah. Like, why are we

11:14

so obsessed? I've heard people have the

11:16

same argument around Kanye. So they'll go.

11:18

Yes. Yeah, okay, fine. He's bipolar. Fine.

11:20

But still, he's doing the thing. There

11:22

are many bipolar people who are not

11:24

doing the thing. That's exactly right. But

11:26

the one element I keep throwing out

11:29

is, yes, but how many bipolar people

11:31

are billionaires? Yes, it's the billionaire part.

11:33

It's the billionaire part. I think he

11:35

has a brain injury. He kind of

11:37

went through a car, right? Yeah, he

11:39

had that. He's a traumatic brain injury.

11:41

No, I've never thought of it that

11:44

way. You know those athletes with CTE.

11:46

Yes. He like killed their wives. and

11:48

bipolar and a billion dollars. Put those

11:50

three things together. That's my chronic. Oh,

11:52

that's your theory. Yeah, I'm just like,

11:54

yeah, I think he's got. I can't

11:56

believe I never thought of that. He

11:59

displays all the traits. The violence, the

12:01

unpredictability. But I don't know if, if,

12:03

yeah, I'm conflicted on that because I

12:05

often go, how much time should we

12:07

spend trying to understand how people got

12:09

there? And I almost feel like, maybe

12:11

the two can happen, it's not binary.

12:14

No. On the one hand, we can

12:16

say it's good to understand it, because

12:18

maybe if we understand it, we can

12:20

try and figure out how to not

12:22

let it happen again, you know. But

12:24

then on the other hand, to your

12:27

point, we shouldn't be using it as

12:29

an excuse. So my thing on that

12:31

is, I think this might be a

12:33

division of labor problem, which I mean,

12:35

like, does everybody need to understand it

12:37

to condemn it? Right? The behavior? It

12:39

may just be that, okay, there are

12:42

people who will... puzzle out the how

12:44

and the why and then the rest

12:46

of us I think it takes a

12:48

little humility to say hey I don't

12:50

do that I don't know anything about

12:52

it but I do know that he

12:54

said this thing that I find abhorrent

12:57

and so that's enough for me I

12:59

think the problem is there are too

13:01

many people who feel like they can

13:03

diagnose so for them that I need

13:05

to personally understand before I can act

13:07

the world's just too complicated for that's

13:09

true I think the thing I think

13:12

the thing I I'm still fascinated by

13:14

is the Trump voter. Oh yeah. I'm

13:16

curious about the psychology of the... and

13:18

I know a bunch of Trump voters.

13:20

Why are you hanging it out? Because

13:22

people tell me their truth. That's why

13:24

people... What are you fascinated by? What

13:27

is it that you either don't understand

13:29

or are trying to understand or you

13:31

know? Because I think that when he

13:33

first came to power, the liberal media

13:35

establishment... spent a long time being like,

13:37

oh, it's because of their economically disempowered

13:39

and then the data show that they

13:42

weren't economically disempowered. It said they are

13:44

afraid of being in these diverse neighborhoods

13:46

with lots of immigrants and it kind

13:48

of showed that, well, that's not the

13:50

neighborhoods they were living in. Like we've

13:52

never been able to understand these people

13:55

and instead of them diminishing, it seems

13:57

like there's... more of them and there's

13:59

more consensus and I think there's lots

14:01

of simple explanations to why they do

14:03

what they do but he understands them

14:05

yes right so I want to understand

14:07

the people he understands yeah because he

14:10

understands his vote are more than anybody

14:12

else in the world he knows he

14:14

could say they are out of this

14:16

world he said I can say they're

14:18

eating cats and dogs and my people

14:20

are not going to care And he

14:22

knows where the kind of like the,

14:25

what is it, the third rail is.

14:27

Like Trump knows where not to go,

14:29

right? Yes. In ways that. We act

14:31

like he is reckless. He knows where

14:33

not. He knows where not. He knows

14:35

where not. But I have seen him

14:37

sometimes cake walked up to a line

14:40

that you would assume he would cross.

14:42

Yeah. And he doesn't. Right. He knew

14:44

saying black jobs would resonate. with like

14:46

the foundational black Americans and Twitter. And

14:48

they were like, yeah, we know what

14:50

he's talking about. Yeah. So he understands

14:52

them, but many other people don't understand

14:55

them, especially the Democrats, the people saving

14:57

democracy and trying to stave off fascism.

14:59

Well, is that what they do? Well,

15:01

they claim to be doing. That's the

15:03

follow question I had personally. Okay, here's

15:05

two things that I think of sometimes

15:07

in that regard. I'd love to hear

15:10

how you see it, Tracyristic. Because I

15:12

go, on the one hand. What I

15:14

do think is he is thriving in

15:16

an environment where everyone else spends more

15:18

time to your point trying to understand

15:20

things as opposed to just pointing them

15:22

out. You're with me? Yes. So what

15:25

I mean is Trump will go. The

15:27

immigrants are coming in. Too many immigrants.

15:29

Then the person who's running against him

15:31

will spend more time going. We need

15:33

to understand how people move around the

15:35

globe and what migrationary patterns tell us

15:38

about the stability of other, you've lost

15:40

people. So what Trump does really well

15:42

is he starts with the problem and

15:44

then he goes like we'll figure out

15:46

the solution. So let's think of it

15:48

this way. If you were walking across

15:50

the road and a bus was coming

15:53

towards you, bus was going to hit

15:55

you. Who would you prefer? The person

15:57

who says, watch out, there's a truck.

16:00

It's not a truck, it's a bus.

16:02

Or the person who says to you,

16:04

ah, if you, excuse me, if you

16:06

do not vacate the road as quickly

16:08

as possible, there may be a vehicle

16:10

that might make contact with, and what

16:12

I mean by that is like there's

16:14

some politicians I find who spend a

16:17

lot of time delicately trying to answer

16:19

a question. Ask most politicians. So do

16:21

you think homelessness is bad in California?

16:23

Well, you know, I think before we

16:25

talk about what we need to think

16:27

about, you see, and then where he's

16:29

winning is, he's just being blunt. But

16:32

that's not what I'm talking about. That's

16:34

what Black Jobs is. It's a shortcut

16:36

to say something. But I think it's

16:38

the way he's able to into it

16:40

what people's problems are. being a man

16:42

with no problems. Right? No, but he

16:44

has them, by the way. No, he

16:47

genuinely believes he has them. Yeah, that's

16:49

the difference. But his diagnosis feels right.

16:51

Yes. That is what I think, by

16:53

the way, has cut across class and

16:55

across race. Yes. This is what, like,

16:57

my great aunt is 91, 92 years

16:59

old. And she goes, no, you are

17:02

right. He is right. There are a

17:04

lot of people out there who shouldn't

17:06

be here. Yes. So remove them. That

17:08

seems like the most straightforward solution. Now

17:10

removing them means violating the Constitution, you

17:12

know, violating human rights. Not having enough

17:14

planes. Right. There are all types of

17:17

complications to that, but remove them resonates

17:19

deeply with a lot of people for

17:21

whom observing the problem is the diagnosis

17:23

of the problem. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Remove

17:25

problem. Yes, it's exactly that. The other

17:27

one I think that we take for

17:29

granted, especially if you spend all your

17:32

time in America, is this, and I

17:34

love this because I go home so

17:36

frequently now, I'll be in South Africa,

17:38

and then obviously I live in America,

17:40

but I'll go home to South Africa,

17:42

go home to South Africa, go back

17:44

to South Africa. The biggest thing I've

17:47

noticed is, we take for granted that

17:49

when you give people two choices, they

17:51

will pick one of the two choices,

17:53

but you... I'm not asking yourself what

17:55

having more choices would have revealed to

17:57

you. Right? So let's think of it

17:59

through the lens of sports. One of

18:02

the things that I've been most fascinated

18:04

by in the world of sports is

18:06

how fervently people support a team and

18:08

yet how nuanced they are in their

18:10

ability to support another team. And what

18:12

I mean by that is, someone will

18:14

go, I'm a Lakers fan. Who are

18:17

you? And the person will be like,

18:19

I'm an Oklahoma City fan, they're like,

18:21

okay, you cool. Yeah, because you hate

18:23

what I hate and they didn't lose

18:25

that. They go as long as you're

18:27

not a Boston Celtics fan. That's right.

18:29

As long as you're a Celtics fan,

18:32

we're good. Who are you? Oh, you're

18:34

a Knicks fan. You're this fan. And

18:36

that's what happens in sports is even

18:38

when we talk about football in England.

18:40

I'm a Liverpool fan. And then when

18:42

we talk about who we, we go

18:44

like, if Man City wins. I mean,

18:47

who's a Man City supporter? You see,

18:49

it's a thing. And if Man United

18:51

wins, it's even more now, because it's

18:53

like, okay, we're in the same region

18:55

of the... So what I think sometimes

18:57

people forget when they look at American

18:59

politics is, they spend a lot of

19:02

time going, why did these people choose

19:04

this? But they don't realize that if

19:06

there are two choices, they will choose

19:08

one. And because the parties themselves have

19:10

become almost like, I don't know what

19:12

the right word would be, but they've

19:14

the issue we don't have it. Oh

19:17

yeah, that is hugely exclusive. Yeah, about

19:19

immigration, so we can't. That's my thing.

19:21

So if I say to you, okay,

19:23

so if I say to you, okay,

19:25

who is a fan of saying whatever

19:27

you want? Who would you say? Republican.

19:29

You see, okay? If I say to

19:32

you, who's a fan of free health

19:34

care? Democrat. You see, I don't think

19:36

it should be like this. Politics should,

19:38

you should not be able to pinpoint,

19:40

just like entire swaths or groups in

19:42

it. You should be able to say.

19:44

Oh, these parties or these groups, or

19:47

that sense, oh, this, this governor believes

19:49

that and that one doesn't believe this

19:51

and this. And you know, you see

19:53

that graph, I'm sure you've seen it,

19:55

you know, in all your work, Tracy.

19:57

If you look at the, as a

19:59

beautiful graph, I once saw, of the

20:02

overlapping dots of policy. that American lawmakers

20:04

used to have. You've seen it, yes.

20:06

Yeah. And it shows you how a

20:08

West Virginia Democrat was further from the

20:10

same issues as a New York Republican.

20:12

They were like, no, no, West Virginia

20:14

Democrat was actually quite close to a

20:17

West Virginia Republican. And New York Democrat

20:19

was actually close to a New York

20:21

Republican. It's just you were like. You

20:23

were inching, but now because politics has

20:25

all become national, I think you're getting

20:27

people two choices. And so someone will

20:29

go, because most people are single issueish

20:32

voters. They'll go, to your point, remove

20:34

them. Who says remove them? Oh, only

20:36

one party. All right, well, I guess

20:38

I don't know who I'm voting for.

20:40

Who says we're keeping the coal jobs?

20:42

Only one party? All right, I guess

20:44

we're, did you get on saying? Yes.

20:47

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20:49

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for 15% off. I would love to

22:06

see what would happen if you said

22:09

to Americans. In fact, the New York

22:11

Times did this... as a game once

22:13

that people played. Oh, your belief, like

22:16

what you actually cared about? Let me

22:18

tell you, the consternation it created at

22:20

the Daily Show. Yeah, why? Was one

22:23

of my greatest joys. The New York

22:25

Times came out with a little quiz.

22:27

You remember this? I do. And the

22:29

quiz said, you, we're going to give

22:32

you a list of issues and how

22:34

you think they should be solved. At

22:36

the end of it, we'll tell you

22:39

who you should vote for. Yep. Can

22:41

I tell you the amount of people

22:43

who had existential crisis? People looking at

22:46

their phones, I'm not a Bernie fan

22:48

at all. What do you mean? I'm

22:50

a Hillary, I'm a Hillary. I would

22:53

never be a... People were shocked to

22:55

realize that the person they support... the

22:57

issues or the policies that they would

23:00

support. And that's what I mean by

23:02

you've given people the option. So I

23:04

would love to see what would happen

23:06

if you said to Americans. Oh, that

23:09

would be amazing. I would just love

23:11

to see what would happen. If you

23:13

said, if you just sit in America,

23:16

like actually we think America is polarized

23:18

binary. But I would love to see

23:20

what would happen if you gave this

23:23

country a chance to show how complex

23:25

its tapestry is. I would love to

23:27

see what we would learn about people.

23:30

We would learn about what we would

23:32

learn about people. Don't be like you

23:34

chose this buffet, you chose that buffet.

23:36

No, no, no. Ellicott, show me your

23:39

politics. And all of a sudden we

23:41

start to get more granular. And we

23:43

start to see things that we've never

23:46

seen before. Because I think the Democrats

23:48

have now. been able to occupy this

23:50

position of being more progressive on race

23:53

and I have not met more racist

23:55

people the liberal the liberal white people

23:57

in New York who won't even send

24:00

their kids to public school yeah like

24:02

just and the really subtle psychological warfare

24:04

reminds me of the racism in England.

24:06

You know, it's like so deaf. Oh,

24:09

taking on a lot of the contours

24:11

of English class-based racism. Yeah, it's like,

24:13

I think for the same reason. Yeah.

24:16

Class became so important to the Democratic

24:18

Party because they are trying to serve

24:20

the interests of a donor class. who

24:23

has a lot of money, while keeping

24:25

the interests for their identity, where progressive,

24:27

where liberals, aligned with working class, poor

24:30

people, minority people, immigrants. So to reconcile

24:32

those two things, right, think about who

24:34

you have to be, to have both

24:36

of those things exist for you simultaneously.

24:39

You gotta be delusional in kind of

24:41

the same way that English people are,

24:43

who will tell me to my face,

24:46

we don't have racism. here. We do

24:48

have class, but we don't have racism,

24:50

as if these are two entirely distinct.

24:53

But you do, you have to believe

24:55

that when you have this like really

24:57

structured class system and really formal. That's

25:00

right. You have this really formal system

25:02

of immigration, right? And I think the

25:04

Democrats have oddly kind of a modified

25:07

version of that. for much of the

25:09

same reasons. Their class politics right now

25:11

do not align with their race politics.

25:13

And so you get a lot of

25:16

people who make do with that for

25:18

the same reason everybody went nuts over

25:20

their results to the quiz. I mean

25:23

you think about who the typical New

25:25

York Times reader is. Daily show employees

25:27

perhaps. And what they realize is that

25:30

they have accepted a lot of casual

25:32

racism and policy. so that they could

25:34

keep their class politics. Which is, yeah,

25:37

yeah, yeah. No, I absolutely think we

25:39

should have more immigrants. We're a nation

25:41

of immigrants. But I do need local

25:43

control over my schools. Yes. Because I

25:46

bought a house in a neighborhood that

25:48

depends upon. My kids going and being

25:50

associated with the kids who do the

25:53

right, that's the Democrats deal. And one

25:55

of the things that Donald Trump did

25:57

really well, that they still don't have

26:00

an answer for, is he pointed out

26:02

the hypocrisy of that? He's brilliant at

26:04

that. And the way that you and

26:07

I always experienced it, because we were

26:09

always the black people vis-a-vis the Democrats,

26:11

so we knew it was hypocritical. But

26:13

for him to point it out and

26:16

do it so effectively is part of

26:18

the reason why I think they are

26:20

spinning spinning out. He's done a great

26:23

job at that. That's where he's really

26:25

good at saying to you. Remember when

26:27

he said, was that one of like,

26:30

ask Hillary and her friends about the

26:32

taxes. And where he goes, well, they

26:34

don't, why haven't they done it? Why

26:37

haven't he's like, they've had the power,

26:39

they could have done it. They had

26:41

the presidency, they had the Senate, they

26:44

didn't do it, folks. It's so interesting

26:46

that you point that you point that

26:48

out, because it was fascinating to fascinating

26:50

to see. were able to see in

26:53

the data that liberal people, proud liberal

26:55

people, did not act in according to

26:57

what they said in terms of their

27:00

views. We love that data, by the

27:02

way, as sociologists say, which we, I'm

27:04

talking about sometimes, we love the okay-cupid

27:07

data because our personal lives are the

27:09

only place left in this culture where

27:11

we feel safe being racist classes, elitist,

27:14

Because we say what it's just our

27:16

purpose. I can't help who you know

27:18

gets me going. Yeah, that's biology This

27:20

has been my favorite thing is when

27:23

they get asked this people get asked

27:25

this in random forums They'll be like

27:27

cool. They'll be like cool white people

27:30

cool cool cool and then someone because

27:32

things are so cool someone will say

27:34

to them you have you ever have

27:37

you ever dated a black woman? And

27:39

the person will be like I

27:42

just don't think they had any at

27:44

my school, you know? I'm sure. And

27:46

I love how they do the thinking

27:48

thing, like you wouldn't know. People, you

27:50

don't need to know. If you ask

27:53

someone, have you dated someone? Have you

27:55

dated someone? You don't be like, am

27:57

I? You know the answer. You know

27:59

the answer. Do you know what I'm

28:01

saying? Yes. And I think there's like

28:04

a there's like a level of honesty

28:06

that people aren't able to have but

28:08

when it's now going to be in

28:10

their personal life. Oh, yes. They can't

28:12

hide the thing anymore. That's right. That's

28:15

why people went really, do you guys

28:17

remember this moment? I think it was

28:19

around January 6 where there was a

28:21

group of young women, probably just internet-based,

28:23

but who admitted to using hinge and

28:26

the apps to sort of like catfish

28:28

Republican men. No, I didn't hear about

28:30

that. Right, so there was this thing.

28:32

They would go, okay, you know, you're

28:35

never going to be with somebody hot

28:37

like me again, unless you change your

28:39

politics. And so they would like pretend

28:41

to be Republicans to out them to

28:43

find out where they were on January

28:46

6th. They'd make the romantic match, right?

28:48

Wait, wait, wait, help me break this.

28:50

So, yes. So these women went online.

28:52

Yes. Okay. And then. And I think

28:54

they're hot. You got to have that

28:57

part. Very, very hot. So these were

28:59

hot women who went online and they

29:01

created profiles? Yes. And then they linked

29:03

up with Republican or conservative men. Yes.

29:05

because they are apparently according to the

29:08

data as you know they are at

29:10

a disadvantage on on on apps conservative

29:12

men they all complain about it nobody

29:14

wants to date them okay then january

29:16

six happens and i think the start

29:19

as someone said they recognize a guy

29:21

they thought they saw on one of

29:23

the apps once in the videos so

29:25

the women start going on and going

29:27

yeah yeah yeah i know that guy's

29:30

seen that guy and so they were

29:32

cat fishing them pretending to be conservative

29:34

or interested in conservative men and then

29:36

chat would go yeah so where were

29:39

you last week and it like out

29:41

it like three or four people right

29:43

you know I always say to my

29:45

friends I always say this I go

29:47

to all of us I go guys

29:50

I don't know Like amongst us, I'm

29:52

like, I don't know what our downfall

29:54

will be, but I know it'll be

29:56

a woman. I don't care who you

29:58

are. I don't care who you are.

30:01

Like men, yo, our weakness is woman.

30:03

And it just, you don't know when

30:05

it comes, you don't know how it's

30:07

going to happen, you don't, it might

30:09

be your business, it might be your

30:12

marriage, it might be your sports career,

30:14

it might be your journalism. I don't

30:16

know what it is going to be,

30:18

but like, that's why the Bible was

30:20

so prophetic. See, like, that's why the

30:23

Bible was so prophetic. They were very

30:25

clear about that. Like, that's why the

30:27

Bible was so prophetic, they were so

30:29

prophetic, it might be, like, but like,

30:32

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

30:34

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

30:36

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

30:38

like, like, like, like, like, like, And

30:40

then what happened? Eve January 6th hit

30:43

him? She's genuine question. She was like,

30:45

she's like, why don't we eat the

30:47

apple? And he's like, what? And he,

30:49

because of, oh, yo man, it's a

30:51

prophetic story. We are in it. You

30:54

think a man could have tricked, even,

30:56

to have, let me ask you the

30:58

question. No, no, no, no, I want

31:00

to ask your question. Do you think

31:02

a man would have been able to

31:05

shift Eve to shift Eve to eat

31:07

the book? Man, I'm not talking about

31:09

blame. I'm asking you if you think-

31:11

I'm with the lying thesis. I like

31:13

the lying thesis. No, I'm going to

31:16

say something sexist about women. Let's not

31:18

do this. I understand. Women have got

31:20

a male's basic nature being lying, though.

31:22

I know a lot of women who

31:24

are all about the male gays, and

31:27

if a man told them to eat

31:29

an apple and God told them not

31:31

to, they would do it. Yes. But

31:33

there's only one man in the garden.

31:36

I would think that Adam was too

31:38

stupid to think through the logic of,

31:40

hey, Apple could be good. Right? Like

31:42

to get to that conclusion. I'm just

31:44

saying. Now, I'm not sure that Eve

31:47

convinced them so much. She was like,

31:49

yeah, I'm going to try to Apple.

31:51

And he's like, not without me, you

31:53

ate. Because I do think there's a

31:55

basic nature here that we're talking about.

31:58

You know, so I think the number

32:00

of me kind of came up. I'll

32:02

agree with that, but I wanted to

32:04

say something about this app experiment that

32:06

the women did. I don't think that

32:09

would happen in 2025 because I'm noticing

32:11

a lot of women getting conservative. Oh

32:13

yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm seeing it all

32:15

over my TikTok, my Instagram. Same, I

32:17

think we're on similar to Tikkop. I

32:20

think so, yeah, yeah. Like the thing

32:22

about skininess, how we should dress, about

32:24

being feminine, being kind of conservative. I'm

32:26

seeing women who were like a few

32:29

years ago, I considered pretty progressive, becoming

32:31

more about like, oh, I want only

32:33

biological women and certain... What is that

32:35

about, Tresseu? Oh, I think that's, we

32:37

talk about economic anxiety, you guys are

32:40

talking about that, and I agree, I

32:42

think we totally misdiagnosed, like that whole

32:44

economic anxiety argument. And the case with

32:46

women, I think, is a perfect example

32:48

of how we misdiagnosed it. Yes, people

32:51

are anxious. That doesn't mean that they

32:53

should be anxious. What people are responding

32:55

to is perceived loss, not real loss.

32:57

That's why you're like, what do you

32:59

mean? You're rich. You're not economically anxious.

33:02

Yeah, they are. It's just not real.

33:04

It's made up. It's status anxiety. We're

33:06

calling it economic anxiety. So when you

33:08

start saying status anxiety, though, that's where

33:10

I think the gender peace becomes really

33:13

prevalent. Because what I am seeing happen,

33:15

saying women in my life, who were

33:17

all pussy-headed-headed-headed-headed-headed-headed out-headed out-headed out. about anything.

33:19

They were throwing a pussyhead at that

33:21

and they were like, we gotta go,

33:24

we had to go ahead of hell

33:26

on their pantsuit, for Hillary, right? And

33:28

today, I'm with her. And today, you

33:30

know who they are with? A dude

33:33

and a fleece vest and khakis. It's

33:35

like they look at, I think, they

33:37

are looking accurately at a post-ro reality.

33:39

A world where truly. The United States

33:41

government is the most powerful force in

33:44

the world still, and it has declared

33:46

war on women. Go back home, we

33:48

want you out of work, we want

33:50

you out of schools, too much, too

33:52

far, too fast. And I think you

33:55

look at that and you go, I'm

33:57

hitching myself to the thing that provides

33:59

some cover. Right and I think that

34:01

performing conservatism even if it's just in

34:03

how you look Everybody's getting the hair

34:06

cuts now I said the natural hair

34:08

movement a liberal hair cut by the

34:10

way to the conservative hair cut What

34:12

is a conservative hair cut? What is

34:14

a conservative hair cut? What's a liberal

34:17

hair? You know it when you see

34:19

you know when you say also with

34:21

black women the natural hair movement I

34:23

think is pretty much like Done? Folks

34:26

are going back to the blowout in

34:28

the relaxers. That's why they were mad

34:30

when the science came out and said

34:32

relaxers might be causing cancer because the

34:34

transition had started. And I think it's

34:37

the same reason, the same thing for

34:39

black women by the way. We have

34:41

been at the forefront of like economic

34:43

progress for women that sort of generational

34:45

forefront, right? Black women, women with large,

34:48

outpacing men in education, going to college.

34:50

We were almost at parody in the

34:52

most male fields, law and medicine, right?

34:54

This is like for black women. All

34:56

women. All women. Okay. Yeah, black women

34:59

had already exceeded black men, but white

35:01

women were now coming for it. I

35:03

mean, we were almost at parody. And

35:05

now you see this like hostile sort

35:07

of response to women. And I think

35:10

you start going, if nothing else, let

35:12

me look the part. And again, I'm

35:14

not sure any of that's conscious. I

35:16

think as you look around and the

35:18

aesthetics, for example, of the Trump administration

35:21

are really clear. Blonde. Blonde. As blonde

35:23

as you can get it. And I

35:25

think that you take that as a

35:27

cue for this is what we do

35:30

now if you want a little bit

35:32

of safety. Okay, so this is what

35:34

I think about. I don't think men

35:36

are safe. Like, the way I was,

35:38

maybe, and maybe it's just like, the

35:41

way I was raised was like, have

35:43

your own money. Mm-hmm. Like, what do

35:45

you mean? Help me, you mean like

35:47

men are dangerous or you mean men

35:49

are not safe? I mean, men are

35:52

dangerous or you mean men are not

35:54

safe? I mean, men are dangerous. I

35:56

mean, men are like, we spent too

35:58

much of education for you to become

36:00

a education for you to become a

36:03

state- My mom's like, we invested in

36:05

these girls. And part of that is

36:07

a fear of what a man will

36:09

do to you if he dies. Yes.

36:11

He leaves you. So you always need

36:14

to have your own means. And my

36:16

mom's like, even if you're just selling

36:18

cakes and you're at home with your

36:20

kids. Just have a lifebook. Have your

36:22

little pocket money. Yeah. But now I'm

36:25

seeing a lot of women of color

36:27

who are like, I want to be

36:29

a. stay-at-home girlfriend, stay-at-home wife, I want

36:31

a soft life. I just say that

36:34

a stay-at-home girlfriend, I'll see moron, a

36:36

bed, pushes my buttons and hit your

36:38

kind of way. Tell me more. What

36:40

is a girlfriend? A stay-at-home wife is

36:42

only allowed to be a stay-at-home wife

36:45

with the benefits of it, however marginal's

36:47

benefits are, because the state says he

36:49

owes you the money. Yeah. If you

36:51

a girl friend, okay. Okay, I see.

36:53

money. But that's what I'm saying, like

36:56

people are like, I'll even sell play

36:58

house. I see these young girls, and

37:00

I feel like I'm turning into an

37:02

auntie, but I see these young girls

37:04

and I'm like, who raised you? Who

37:07

raised the question? I never thought I

37:09

would see the day when Tressey MacDrum

37:11

will be sitting in front of me

37:13

saying, get the bag. You know what

37:15

people's grandma's did for you to be

37:18

able to get the bag? You know

37:20

what she put up with for the

37:22

bag to be procured? But it's become

37:24

meme. There's a meme now like, oh,

37:27

I wish we could go back and

37:29

tell those women white women and say,

37:31

what were you thinking? Why would you

37:33

fight for us to have the right

37:35

to work? I hate work. Right? I

37:38

see this in a different way as

37:40

well in South Africa, for instance. There

37:42

are a lot of people now in

37:44

South Africa who go, maybe apartheid wasn't

37:46

that bad because at least then there

37:49

was no unemployment. In apartheid, the electricity

37:51

was fine. And then I'll say this,

37:53

I wouldn't say it to women because

37:55

I wasn't a woman and I wasn't

37:57

even around then, but still, I go,

38:00

yeah, but remember, it is easy to

38:02

think that the things worked well when

38:04

the system... was only designed to benefit

38:06

a few because then it was working

38:08

well for a few. So in South

38:11

Africa, yeah, we had electricity because we

38:13

only had to give it to 5%

38:15

of the population. Yes, the schools were

38:17

good for 5% of the population. Yes,

38:19

there was no unemployment because people were

38:22

essentially slaves. So yeah, if you want

38:24

to go, you're forgetting that things worked,

38:26

but you're not including who they worked

38:28

for. And how bad it was for

38:31

everyone now. That's exactly right. younger women

38:33

that I'm around, why hasn't there been

38:35

more resistance? Why isn't, like people are

38:37

surprised when they look at the votes,

38:39

how many women voted for Trump in

38:42

spite of the Roe v. Wade thing?

38:44

Or just the indifference. You're not seeing

38:46

women marching in the streets about many

38:48

of the things happening. It feels like

38:50

we've just been like, I can't do

38:53

it. What's that about? I think the

38:55

reality of progress and it is a,

38:57

you know, it's counterintuitive, but we see

38:59

this with... any kind of form of

39:01

progress. So the example I like to

39:04

use is like the classic immigrant story

39:06

in this country is the parents who

39:08

immigrate to this country will always be

39:10

foreign to their children who benefited from

39:12

it, right? They will never truly understand

39:15

each other. Right? There are millions of

39:17

books written about that very story. That's

39:19

just the immigrant story. Why? Because what

39:21

it took to be desperate enough to

39:24

leave your home country to go to

39:26

the United States America means you will

39:28

never be able to fully appreciate or

39:30

understand the benefits of it. So you

39:32

do it for your children who will

39:35

understand the benefits of it, but will

39:37

never understand what it took to be

39:39

desperate enough. to migrate. The conundrum of

39:41

social progress is what you have is

39:43

a generation of women who benefited from

39:46

feminism but never experience what made feminism

39:48

necessary. Right? We think, and that's not

39:50

to say that it is not true,

39:52

but we think the sort of like

39:54

interpersonal bias and violence we experience that

39:57

work or school or whatever is as

39:59

bad as it can be. When really,

40:01

as bad as it can be is

40:03

being fundamentally according to the state and

40:05

appendage. of your husband. Not having a

40:08

bank account. That's right. That's actually as

40:10

bad as it can be. But for

40:12

you, that's like this vague notion. It's

40:14

very abstract. Right. It's very abstract, right?

40:16

And I think knowing and understanding what

40:19

made you possible might be fundamentally impossible.

40:21

So I don't want to throw elder

40:23

women under the bus because I think

40:25

we do that too much. Did they

40:28

not articulate? Enough to us. Who wants

40:30

to remember what brought you here? Like

40:32

the amnesia, again, another part of the

40:34

immigrant story is how many children of

40:36

immigrants have said, my parents never talked

40:39

about this. No. They wouldn't even use

40:41

our native language. Yeah. I don't know

40:43

any of the stories that brought me.

40:45

Food. I didn't like... It's just like...

40:47

Yeah. We do the same thing. Yeah.

40:50

They survived it. I've been working on

40:52

this memoir for a couple years now

40:54

and I promise if my publishers listening,

40:56

I'm almost finished. I swear to you.

40:58

I know it sounds like I'm going

41:01

to the show and my, where is

41:03

so close? And one of the things

41:05

that comes up, like, and again, nothing

41:07

unique about this, but like I don't

41:09

know anything as it turned out about

41:12

my grandmother who I thought I'd known

41:14

my whole life, like the things we

41:16

don't talk about. are huge. The things

41:18

we don't talk about is probably more

41:21

than the things we do talk about.

41:23

And so there's a like there's this

41:25

current, you know, there's this ongoing generational

41:27

amnesia when you have suffered in any

41:29

kind of way. Like I just don't

41:32

think people want to sit around the

41:34

dinner table and talk about the beaten

41:36

that finally broke them or the, you

41:38

know, the sexual violence that finally pushed

41:40

them to leave, a husband, right? People

41:43

just don't want to talk about that.

41:45

And so it becomes real easy for

41:47

you not to inherit the violent part

41:49

of the story. And all you inherit

41:51

is, yeah, but she ain't have to

41:54

go out to no job. Like, yeah,

41:56

she would have loved have gone out

41:58

to go out to a job. to

42:00

a job. Don't go anywhere because we

42:02

got more what now after this.

42:05

This episode is brought to you

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drive while distracted. You

43:34

know when you talk about that, I

43:37

can't help but think about how

43:39

it applies to many of the

43:41

moments of progress that

43:43

countries have made and

43:45

society has made? Because

43:47

everything you just said now

43:49

could completely be applicable to

43:51

vaccines, let's say. Oh, absolutely.

43:53

Yeah. Because everyone who is

43:55

alive now with no polio,

43:58

no measles, no anything. You

44:00

cannot appreciate a vaccine because you do not

44:02

live in a world where you are seeing the

44:04

effects of not having the vaccine. Well, it's

44:06

so funny, because on both my maternal and

44:08

paternal line, I think particular about my

44:11

paternal line, my grandmother had a set

44:13

of kids before my dad and his two

44:15

brothers. And they kind of always existed in

44:17

the family imagination. And then when I grew

44:19

up, I realized that they were pretty. older

44:21

when they died they were like three and

44:24

seven they died in infanthood and

44:26

early childhood and from like things

44:28

that a kid never dies from

44:30

now yes and when I think

44:32

especially my paternal grandmother she never

44:34

got over that grief and so

44:36

I think we live in the shadow

44:38

of a lot of grief in my

44:40

family at the grief of that particular

44:43

event those of particular events and so

44:45

I said I said look when I

44:47

hear about anti-back stuff I get

44:49

personally triggered because being the child

44:51

of two Nigerian immigrants, I'm actually

44:54

not that far away from a world where there

44:56

are women who would, your child gets an MLR

44:58

vaccine, say thank you, Jesus. That's right. Because

45:00

you know what it means. Do you know

45:02

what I mean? So that thing about the

45:04

distance and vaccines, I think there's

45:06

some populations who like are a

45:08

bit closer, but for your average person

45:11

in the West. They don't know somebody

45:13

that's died of measles or even

45:15

meningitis. Like some people take

45:17

the meningitis vaccine for granted now,

45:19

but I remember when it was a

45:21

death sentence. Yeah, but I think about

45:24

this in all aspects of life. The

45:26

FAA is a great example. Because America

45:28

has had such an impeccable track record

45:31

flying, people now take for granted the

45:33

apparatus that has gone into making

45:35

sure that America has such an

45:37

impeccable record while flying. People, you

45:39

don't understand how many planes are

45:42

flying around all the time, landing,

45:44

taking off it. I mean, these

45:46

are like decisions. All the clients

45:48

of it is amazing. And then people

45:50

go, we need to gut the FAA. We need

45:52

to, and you, and you go, no, you say

45:55

that because you don't understand that

45:57

you're experiencing its benefits.

45:59

That's right. You know, if you've

46:02

only been in the time of something

46:04

existing, it is hard for you to

46:06

imagine a time before it existed and

46:08

how much better life has gotten, and

46:10

so then you don't think that it's

46:12

meaningful anyway. That's right. We talk about

46:15

like the the shadow state, which I

46:17

find, I have found that the way

46:19

the GOP, you know, headed by Trump,

46:21

but not just Trump in this instance,

46:23

talk about, you know, the deep state,

46:25

deep state coming for you. Soci Sociologists

46:28

have this thing like the shadow state,

46:30

which is our government functions so well

46:32

for such a complex large population and

46:34

most of that is invisible to the

46:36

average American. Poor people see it because

46:39

they got to go to court. Yes.

46:41

Okay. Yes. But everybody else, water just

46:43

shows up, trash just rolls out. So

46:45

what we are talking about here is

46:47

like a sort of like politics, a

46:49

disease of like, privilege, right? That the

46:52

state works so well. It's been so

46:54

stable, which in the like global scheme

46:56

of things really is phenomenal. And it

46:58

works so well for a diverse far-flung

47:00

population that a huge cross-section of people

47:03

who don't have a ton in common

47:05

any other way can be convinced. that

47:07

the state is unnecessary. Yes. And that

47:09

in fact the only way this is

47:11

working is that there's a secret deep

47:13

state, right? But no, what they mean

47:16

by the deep state is the functioning

47:18

government. Your checks arrive on time, right?

47:20

And so what they think the government

47:22

is is that. customer service number they

47:24

call where admittedly you might get a

47:26

sister who don't want to talk to

47:29

you that day. Admittedly. But what they

47:31

do not see is like that you

47:33

are just like a small handful of

47:35

exceptions that didn't fit into the bureaucratic

47:37

majority that time. Your stuff got lost

47:40

but the vast majority of people's did

47:42

not. Most people stuff at the DMV

47:44

actually go smoothly. Believe it or not.

47:46

to hate on the DMV. I wrote

47:48

a piece defending the DMV once and

47:50

the number of people who wrote me

47:53

letters to tell me their personal stories.

47:55

I was one of them. I figured

47:57

I thought one sounded like you. They

47:59

were just like, you say the DMV

48:01

is just like, no, I'm saying if

48:03

you have a problem at the DMV,

48:06

you're like point. Oh, one percent. Yeah.

48:08

But you take for granted that the

48:10

whole population is there. So the point

48:12

on, oh, one percent is huge. Exactly.

48:14

That's what people don't get. They don't

48:17

get this about airports. They don't get

48:19

this about the government. They don't get

48:21

this about medicine. They don't get this

48:23

about everything. It's almost impossible to understand

48:25

what you have if you weren't around

48:27

for when you didn't have it. Yeah.

48:30

And so like, like, I'll try and

48:32

say this to my youngest's crazy. is

48:34

in your life, you've never waited. And

48:36

he said, what do you mean? I

48:38

said, your generation does not know the

48:41

concept of waiting for something. And he's

48:43

like, what do you mean? He said,

48:45

I wait all the time. I said,

48:47

no, you don't wait. I said, I

48:49

used to stand in a line at

48:51

any number of places. How does this

48:54

sound like a hundred years ago? It

48:56

really does. But I said, I used

48:58

to stand in line at a post

49:00

office. That's right. There was no what's

49:02

happening in the news. There was no

49:04

music. There was no video game. There

49:07

was no sending messages No, I stood

49:09

there Yep, and I looked at the

49:11

back of their head For anything from

49:13

10 to 50 minutes, and that was

49:15

it I would sit and wait for

49:18

a bus to show up. I didn't

49:20

know where it was I was coming.

49:22

I just stood there And I would

49:24

judge generally by how many people were

49:26

with me, whether or not I had

49:28

made the right choice in timing. If

49:31

there was no one, I'd be like,

49:33

maybe I'm ahead of them or maybe

49:35

they've left me. And if there's a

49:37

bunch, okay. Now we're not the problem,

49:39

the bus is the problem. But I

49:41

was trying to explain this to him

49:44

and I said to him, and by

49:46

the way, he wasn't even being a

49:48

brat, we were just discussing it as

49:50

a fun thing. And I was like,

49:52

it's amazing how you can't even how

49:55

you can't even appreciate, you can't even

49:57

appreciate, you don't wait because you've always

49:59

never waited. You know, you know, you

50:01

know why things are not happening or

50:03

happening, you know where your friend is.

50:05

Do you remember just waiting for your

50:08

friend somewhere? This was the thing I

50:10

was thinking about. And I know this

50:12

is a generational thing and again, I

50:14

really don't want to turn into an

50:16

auntie, but... you know, destiny. I say

50:19

to somebody, you know, it used to

50:21

be a thing that I'm going to

50:23

meet you somewhere at two o'clock. I

50:25

would just see you at two o'clock.

50:27

Yes. Yeah. Now you have to share

50:29

your location. Yeah. They want to know

50:32

when you've left the house, they want

50:34

to know when I've gotten in the

50:36

car, they want to know how far

50:38

away I am, where I'm going to

50:40

see you at two. I'll get there

50:42

how I get there. We'll see each

50:45

other at two and it'll be fine.

50:47

But I found that the level of

50:49

anxiety that younger people have about not

50:51

knowing your precise movement and location. I

50:53

can't, and again, don't want to be

50:56

one of these people, but I cannot

50:58

imagine that our brains have developed fast

51:00

enough for that to be okay with

51:02

us. Yeah, it's just not, an 11

51:04

year old asked me recently. What age

51:06

was I when I got my first

51:09

phone? My smartphone? And I said, what

51:11

do you mean, honey? How young was...

51:13

The smartphone wasn't invented. That's all I

51:15

was like 20 to 5. What are

51:17

you saying? She was like, I bet

51:19

you got yours when you were 13.

51:22

And I was like, at 13, I

51:24

think we had just gotten call waiting.

51:26

And we ran it into the ground.

51:28

That is hilarious. Right. And yet you

51:30

can't... bad though the idea because that

51:33

was her point by the way she

51:35

was like I don't have anything to

51:37

do when we're in the car because

51:39

I don't have a smartphone yeah so

51:41

you look out the window for 20

51:43

years yeah but the concept and I

51:46

just don't think the brains are prepared

51:48

and I do think that a lot

51:50

of what we see at sort of

51:52

a societal scale is that chronic anxiety

51:54

Yes. Yeah. Everything should happen. I should

51:56

be able to predict everything. You know,

51:59

the total fear of any risk missing

52:01

the bus. No big deal. You missed

52:03

it, you waited for the next one.

52:05

Now it would be considered like some

52:07

major... I've seen people risk limbs being

52:10

chopped off amputated by the train. Yeah.

52:12

Because they don't want to miss it.

52:14

As if another one... Is it coming?

52:16

Will not be coming in five minutes.

52:18

And the time they're saving is so

52:20

that they can get home and scroll

52:23

on TikTok. It's not like when they

52:25

get home, they've got five moments to

52:27

solve, you know, like some crazy equation

52:29

that'll solve the universe. No, they're rushing

52:31

just five minutes faster to get somewhere

52:34

where they're going to then waste that

52:36

time, doing a thing. And the reason

52:38

I say waste is because it's not

52:40

like what they want to be doing.

52:42

But as we wrap, Tracy, I want

52:44

to know from you if like, like,

52:47

as a sociologist, as a sociologist, as

52:49

a sociologist, as a sociologist, as a

52:51

societyologist, as someone who's looked at societies,

52:53

Do you think that means the unfortunate

52:55

ultimate conclusion is, for let's say America

52:57

and many parts of the world as

53:00

we see now, is the unfortunate conclusion

53:02

that people will only appreciate it when

53:04

it now breaks down for their generation?

53:06

So will Americans only appreciate democracy when

53:08

Trump has completely obliterated it? Will people

53:11

only appreciate free speech when it's been

53:13

ripped away? Will women appreciate the advances

53:15

that were made by other women when

53:17

they no longer have it? I am

53:19

so sorry to say this, like I

53:21

am so sorry you asked me this

53:24

question because I have an answer. I've

53:26

thought about it so much and it

53:28

is not a good or fun answer.

53:30

But yes, I'm not, I don't want

53:32

to be dystopian. I actually don't

53:34

think it'll be like, you know,

53:36

I don't think it'll be the

53:39

type of revolution that maybe some

53:41

of us imagine and hope for

53:43

and I don't think it is

53:45

like a complete, you know. reversal

53:47

of rights, but I do think

53:49

it will take the first-hand experience

53:51

of the loss of a functioning

53:53

bureaucratic state of the type of

53:55

security. I don't think we understand

53:57

how much like emotional security we

53:59

get from knowing the government works,

54:01

from not having to worry about

54:03

whether water is coming, for not

54:05

having to worry about whether, when

54:07

you call 911, is somebody coming.

54:09

And can I say something? Yeah.

54:11

For some reason, every American city

54:13

I've lived in, I've been there

54:15

at a crucial catastrophic event. So

54:18

I was in New York during

54:20

COVID. I was in Austin, Texas

54:22

when the first snowstorm happened collapsed

54:24

grid. So we had no power

54:26

and had this one year old

54:28

child and it was freezing and

54:30

no help came right people even

54:32

died and you know those people

54:34

that use their fireplace and then

54:36

I've also was in LA during

54:38

the fires oh we should maybe

54:40

quarantine you oh I'm the problem

54:42

no I'm the problem it's me

54:44

but like LA during the fires

54:46

and it's like you're using this

54:48

app actually, which is telling you

54:50

where all the fires are and

54:52

how contained they are, etc., etc.

54:54

and that's when you kind of

54:57

realize they are like, oh this

54:59

is teetering on the edge, especially

55:01

in Texas, when it was like,

55:03

oh this is a grid that's

55:05

not connected to any other grid,

55:07

this is a state with no

55:09

income tax, only has property taxes.

55:11

So it's not like there's like

55:13

volumous income to like help people.

55:15

It was a Republican utopia. Yeah,

55:17

and you're like... I think that's

55:19

already what happened in North Carolina.

55:21

This stuff is already happening. We're

55:23

having these events that are showing

55:25

you if America gets into like

55:27

a real disaster. That's right. It's

55:29

going to fall apart very quickly.

55:31

And like the LA fires was

55:34

the moment. I was like, oh,

55:36

there wasn't enough water. this guy

55:38

could get a Oh, if I

55:40

want the state to work for

55:42

me, I just better become rich.

55:44

Now, everybody cannot, of course, be

55:46

rich, which is why we created

55:48

governments. But what we don't understand,

55:50

I think Texas is a great

55:52

example of this. Texas is, like,

55:54

again, one of these, you know,

55:56

utopian political realities for people who

55:58

believe in like the core tenets

56:00

of the GOP political platform. But

56:02

it only works because everybody around

56:04

them is not a Republican utopian.

56:06

You need the government to be

56:08

somewhere. And so you can only

56:10

be a state like Texas. that

56:13

says we don't use the federal

56:15

government, see us, you know, a

56:17

big FU to the federal government.

56:19

Well, yeah, you know that because

56:21

all of the rest of us,

56:23

however, fund it and keep it

56:25

going and you draw from it

56:27

and you still need it, right?

56:29

People learned that during COVID, we

56:31

saw it firsthand. The thing about

56:33

this country is. Our need for

56:35

ongoing amnesia about how vulnerable we

56:37

are keeps us from doing the

56:39

right diagnosis. Yeah, you look at

56:41

that and go, the rich guy

56:43

was able to get private firefighters,

56:45

and you go, okay. And I

56:47

guarantee he's gonna be mayor. I

56:50

think he's going to run again

56:52

for mayor and people are like,

56:54

oh, he needs to be our

56:56

mayor. Because look, he kept his

56:58

mood. Like that part of his

57:00

life. He's going to say to

57:02

you, you see I was able

57:04

to do this? I'll do this

57:06

for all of you. And that's

57:08

how Trump won by the way.

57:10

That is exactly. Trump won by

57:12

saying, look at what I've done

57:14

with my life. I will do

57:16

this for your life. And then

57:18

we go back there. Well, all

57:20

right. Thanks. Thanks, y' y' y'

57:22

y' y' y' y' y' y'

57:24

y' y' y' y' y' y'

57:26

y' y' y' y' y' y'

57:29

y' y' y' y' y' y'

57:31

y' y' y' y' y' y'

57:33

y' y' y' y' y' y'

57:35

y' y' y' y' y' y'

57:37

y' y' y' y' y' y'

57:39

y' y' What

57:43

Now with Trevanoa is

57:45

produced by Spotify Studios

57:47

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57:50

Zero productions. The show

57:52

is executive produced by

57:54

Trevanoa Sinaziami and Jodi

57:56

Avigan. Our senior producer

57:59

is Jess Hackle. Claire

58:01

Slaughter is our producer.

58:03

Music mixing and Mastering

58:05

by Hannah's Brown. Thank

58:08

you so much for

58:10

listening. Join me next

58:12

Thursday for another episode

58:15

of What Now. AnyAs

58:17

read across America campaign

58:19

celebrates a nation of

58:21

diverse readers with recommended

58:24

books, authors and teaching

58:26

resources that promote diversity

58:28

and inclusion. However, certain

58:30

politicians are banning books

58:33

with characters representing diverse

58:35

perspectives and experiences, including

58:37

books about Martin Luther

58:39

King and the Trail

58:42

of Tears. But let's

58:44

be honest. All students

58:46

deserve access to diverse,

58:48

age-appropriate books. So, help

58:51

us celebrate. and protect

58:53

the joy of reading

58:55

for all of America's

58:57

students. Learn more at

59:00

read across america.org.