0:00

You know when they talk about the debate prep? They'll

0:02

say like, oh, they prepared and they

0:04

prepared Donald Trump. I always wonder what

0:07

the prep actually entails. And Kamala

0:09

Harris was so on point with her reactions. I

0:12

wonder if they like, they brought in

0:14

like a meme expert. And they

0:16

were like, alright, alright, Madam Vice President,

0:18

so we need you to make as

0:20

many meme-able faces as possible. We need

0:22

you to give... She gave... she had

0:25

the perfect meme gif face. Kamala

0:27

Harris, what's up? Good to meet you. Good to meet you too. Fun,

0:30

fun, fun. Fun, fun, fun. Fun,

0:32

fun, fun. Fun, fun, fun. Fun,

0:34

fun, fun. Fun, fun, fun. Fun,

0:36

fun, fun. This is What Now? with

0:38

Trevor Noah. What's

0:59

up, guys? This

1:28

is your girl, Keke, and my podcast is back

1:30

with a new season. And let me tell you,

1:32

it's too good. And I'm diving into the brains

1:34

of entertainment's best and brightest, okay? Every episode, I

1:36

bring on a friend. I mean the

1:38

likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the

1:40

list goes on. So follow, watch,

1:42

and listen to Baby. This is Keke Palmer on

1:44

the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:51

Well, that was quite the debate.

1:57

Yep. Oh

2:00

man, I love saying the most random thing to

2:02

see how you'll react. Happy podcast day everybody. How

2:04

you doing? How's everybody doing? What's up, Christiana? What's

2:06

up, Josh? Happy podcast day. Happy podcast day. I

2:08

was expecting you to say happy podcast day. I

2:11

know, I know. I knew

2:13

that you were doing that. And then I was

2:15

like, what could I say to throw you off?

2:17

I was trying to be that preacher who comes

2:19

out and just says the most random thing ever.

2:21

Like, I'm never buying that again. And then the

2:23

congregation just looks at them like, wait, wait, buying

2:25

what? The Lord be with you. And also with

2:27

you. But wait, what happened? What

2:30

happened? Yeah, I mean,

2:32

what happened is a good question. Yes.

2:34

What happened indeed? These are the episodes

2:36

I sort of love the most because

2:39

we are all in the most different

2:41

places possible. So I'm in

2:43

the Netherlands where I watched

2:45

the debate between Donald Trump and

2:47

Kamala Harris at three o'clock

2:50

in the morning. Christiana watched

2:52

it in California, the freest state

2:54

in America. And then Josh Johnson,

2:56

I'm assuming you watched in New

2:58

York. Like,

3:00

was it like a fight night in New York or was it just

3:02

a regular watch the debate? No, it was

3:04

like a fight night because there were moments

3:06

where, okay, I've watched lots of

3:08

boxing and everything. And whenever you pass a

3:11

bar where the boxing is happening, there

3:13

have been a few times in my life where I've

3:15

seen a fight where somebody got knocked out, but they

3:17

didn't move right away. And it get

3:20

quiet. And

3:22

that's exactly what it looked like at

3:24

moments where I would pass a bar,

3:26

you hear the debate blaring and people

3:28

just quiet. Like you

3:31

would think that Trump hit his head in

3:33

front of everybody and was bleeding out his

3:35

ear because the way that he would be

3:37

talking and everyone, it wasn't even like, no

3:39

one was even giggling. It was like, this

3:41

is weird. That's what I felt like. I

3:44

don't want to tip the plot here, but

3:46

it felt very, Oh, I don't think

3:48

there's a plot to tip. I feel like this

3:51

conversation is one of those where if

3:53

you are tuning into this episode, you

3:55

know, we're recording this episode like a

3:58

day after the debate, you're going to listen to. it two

4:00

days after the debate. But I think everyone saw it. You

4:03

know, there were a few questions I had for

4:05

this that I know you're going to have great

4:07

answers for. And our guest, who's

4:09

like a superstar guest joining us,

4:11

Tracey Macmillan-Carson, she'll always bring a

4:13

different perspective to any conversation. So

4:16

I'm really excited to have her back on because I

4:18

know she's a fan favorite. But

4:20

yeah, I don't think there's tipping anything

4:22

here. It's just like, okay, maybe

4:25

the one thing I found myself asking was,

4:29

like, how much crazier can

4:31

Trump actually get? Is

4:33

that what you're asking? That's interesting. No, really. Yeah,

4:35

really. I was like, because

4:38

I, maybe I'm not used

4:40

to him, or maybe I don't watch his stuff as much as

4:42

I used to. I don't know. But is

4:44

it just me or does he seem

4:47

like he's a little deeper in than

4:49

he was? Yeah, he's somehow both an

4:51

old man and Crockley online. Yeah. You

4:54

don't see the two mix often. Yeah. And

4:57

you know what it was for me? It was because I

4:59

kept thinking back to the Hillary

5:02

Clinton, Donald Trump debates.

5:05

And for reasons that we can't get into, she

5:07

came across as a bit robotic,

5:09

like a real politician. If you're

5:12

a politician for too long, you

5:14

get kind of very scientific about

5:16

it. So her next to Trump,

5:18

she kind of looked like the weirdo, even though he

5:20

was saying crazy shit. Do you know what I mean? Because

5:22

he would say the crazy shit and she wouldn't react. Whereas

5:25

cause Harris has all these facial

5:28

reactions. Oh, that's interesting. And she's

5:30

responded to him. Like when he did the cats

5:32

and dogs stuff, she was like looking around like,

5:34

is he for real? Oh, because she was so

5:36

like human and seemed less seasoned next

5:38

to him. Yeah. He seemed even crazier. There were moments when

5:40

I was like, is she going to slap it? No,

5:42

she's not going to slap him. She's going to say the

5:45

right thing. But it was just like, she was us, you

5:48

know, because she was reacting to him, how you

5:50

would when you hear like a crazy man in

5:52

a bar, like what are you saying? Yeah.

5:55

I'll pitch you this real quick. She

5:58

looked at Trump the way Trump

6:00

looked at Biden in the last

6:02

debate. Like,

6:05

like what I tell you, because remember that

6:07

moment? Yeah, I remember that moment. He

6:10

said, you know what it was? It was the

6:12

line. It was the line when Biden went, he

6:14

went, he started in one place and ended in

6:16

a completely different zip code. And then Trump said,

6:18

if I remember correctly, he was like, I

6:21

don't know what he said. I don't think he knows what he said. Yes.

6:24

He was like, he was so honest in that moment. He

6:26

was like, he's like, I don't, I don't know what he

6:28

just said. To be honest, he was almost like, should you

6:30

not throw the towel in? What is happening right now? And

6:32

it was, you're right. Kamala Harris looked at him

6:34

the same way. Because there was one moment where

6:37

I don't know if she was concerned about being

6:39

president or anything. I think she was like, y'all,

6:41

this is elder abuse. If we just let, if

6:44

we don't address, because I know y'all, y'all muted

6:46

my mic, so I can't say anything, but like

6:48

somebody get him. The

6:51

concern, there were journing moments of concern.

6:54

Tracey, it is, it is so good

6:56

having you back with us. Thank you

6:58

for joining us. Like, for like what

7:00

I hope will be the antithesis and

7:03

the antidote to everything else we spoke

7:05

about and experienced. So let

7:07

me start by asking you this. Has

7:09

your, not your worldview, but

7:11

has your opinion on where the race

7:14

stands or where America stands changed after

7:16

watching Donald Trump debate Kamala Harris? Okay.

7:20

Maybe. Yes. Oh,

7:23

I like this. I'll take maybe from you any day. I

7:25

know because I'm cautious. You know how cautious

7:28

I am about this. I am always scared

7:30

to be hopeful about Americans. We're

7:33

interesting. We're interesting people. And

7:35

so it's scary for me. I'm

7:38

so scared. I'm so,

7:40

so casually. I don't

7:42

have hope about Americans. It is. You

7:45

know, I think that I feel a

7:47

little bit more confident. One, I feel

7:49

very confident about the Harris machine, which

7:51

feels good. We

7:53

talked a little bit about this, that her team

7:55

around her seems to have changed. I went into

7:57

this debate wanting to see not just that they

7:59

had prepared. But that she

8:01

understood where the electorate was. And that she

8:04

had a message for that. And that

8:06

they weren't still going to be beta testing

8:08

messages. That they had, you know, that

8:10

the internal polling was consistent. They understood what she

8:12

needed to do. And that she was ready to

8:14

do it. And I wanted her to show

8:16

people she could win. Listen, I keep saying, all people

8:19

want at this point, the

8:21

people who are likely to vote, like there's a huge swath of people out

8:23

there aren't paying attention, don't care,

8:25

whatever. But the people who can be moved to vote, who

8:30

might vote for a Kamala Harris, wanted

8:33

to see some of what they saw in that debate. They

8:35

want someone who isn't afraid of Donald

8:38

Trump big time. And

8:40

they want someone who makes him look

8:42

as crazy as they feel he is.

8:46

Right? There's this disconnect right now where he clearly

8:48

is crazy to

8:50

people who are paying attention. But if you go out there, you know, in

8:53

the rest of the world and you brush up against other people

8:55

who don't seem terrified of him,

8:58

you can start to question if you're losing your mind.

9:01

And so seeing her

9:03

react to him as if he doesn't make sense, seeing her

9:05

draw out the ways that he doesn't make sense. I just

9:08

think that feels good to Americans. Like, okay,

9:10

I'm not only am I not crazy, someone

9:13

who seems capable sees it too, and

9:15

they are willing to go toe to toe with

9:18

him when it matters. Right.

9:20

Right. Well, here's the main things I wanted

9:22

to chat about. One

9:24

was, what do we think

9:27

Kamala Harris did right? And

9:29

why did it feel like it was more

9:31

right than anyone who has debated Donald Trump

9:33

before? And then obviously, you

9:35

know, we have to talk about Donald

9:38

Trump. And you heard my question to

9:40

Josh and Christiana. I don't know

9:42

if I'm the only one, but I feel like he's

9:44

gone deeper into his own rabbit

9:46

hole. I

9:49

also wanted to talk about the debate as a format and

9:51

as a concept. And then, you know, at the end

9:53

of it all, just talking about like

9:55

where we see America going from this. But

9:57

let's stick with Kamala. I

10:00

don't know about everybody else. I

10:03

do not remember a single time when

10:07

especially Donald Trump was involved in

10:09

a debate and even

10:12

conservatives, even

10:14

MAGA people were saying, oh

10:17

no, this man got his ass handed to him. And

10:21

they're not saying it like he

10:23

lost, they're saying it like, oh,

10:26

we heard that Kamala got the questions before

10:29

the debate. How

10:31

did she have her answers ready? Which

10:33

by the way, showed me how little

10:36

people now expect from their politicians

10:39

that people were shocked. People were shocked

10:41

that Kamala Harris could possibly do

10:44

enough homework to know what they would possibly ask

10:46

her before, which is what you're supposed to know.

10:48

It's the issues. And then there's a

10:51

conspiracy theory going around. And if you've seen this where

10:53

they're saying her earrings are actually

10:55

secret listening devices and

10:57

people were broadcasting. Someone

10:59

was talking to her in her ear while

11:01

she was speaking, which I'm going

11:04

to tell you as somebody who does live

11:06

TV, if that's the case, that's

11:08

another reason that she should be president. Because

11:10

if you can deliver a message while people

11:12

are speaking into your ear at the same

11:14

time, you, you like the

11:18

ultimate like you, you, you're the emperor of

11:20

multitasking. So they said that they said she,

11:22

she, she cheated. They

11:25

said, they'd said a whole bunch of things, but

11:27

the underlying thought even in Magdalene was

11:29

yeah, our dude lost, which I've never

11:31

seen them say before. I

11:34

got in a lot of trouble, um, which is

11:36

going to surprise you. I know I got in

11:38

a lot of trouble a couple of days before

11:40

the debate because I said I felt

11:43

the start, not, not the

11:46

pinnacle, the start of the

11:48

Trump bubble losing air. I

11:51

thought that even conservative media,

11:54

um, were open

11:56

to considering that he

11:58

was not. Teflon Don,

12:01

right? That he had

12:03

some vulnerabilities. And

12:05

nothing about what I saw during the

12:07

debate changed my mind. Again, he's not

12:09

dead in the water. He's still polling

12:12

competitively. I get all of that. I

12:14

just mean he does not seem as

12:16

undeniable as he once

12:18

seemed. And I think, and I'm not

12:20

getting that from liberal progressive voters who

12:23

have long hoped for that to be

12:25

true. I was getting that from my

12:27

read of conservative commentators, both in traditional

12:29

media and online and social media, where

12:32

the joke, he stopped being the comedian

12:34

and he is starting to become the

12:36

punch line, which I realized who I

12:38

just said that to. But listen, right?

12:47

Yeah, he's shifting from being the person who

12:49

is controlling the circus to

12:51

becoming the punch line for him to

12:53

now be the punch line really does

12:55

make him look diminished in a way.

12:59

Do you think that was something that Kamala

13:02

Harris is uniquely positioned to take

13:04

advantage of? Because there's no denying,

13:07

like if we talk about Hillary

13:09

and let's even forget Hillary

13:11

for a moment, look at every Republican that Donald

13:13

Trump beat in his own debates to get where

13:15

he got to. Is

13:17

there something that makes

13:19

you uniquely positioned to beat Trump in

13:22

a debate if you are

13:24

a black person and you've lived with black

13:26

people in any way, shape or form? Do

13:28

you know what I mean? Black people aren't

13:30

as shook by Trump as white people are.

13:33

Let's just put it out there. Yeah. Because

13:35

we've also been roasted before, like

13:38

in life. There are

13:40

things that would be

13:42

tantamount to bullying that

13:45

have come from family.

13:48

You know what I mean? And then you send

13:50

a person out in the world that has

13:52

none of those experiences and they're like, wait,

13:54

is he allowed to talk to me like

13:56

this? Yeah, absolutely. It's funny, immediately after the

13:58

debate, I watched Fox and I

14:00

wanted to see what Hannity and his friends were saying.

14:03

And he had JD Vance on, and then

14:06

he also had Rubio and Cruz.

14:08

They were the surrogates that were out for

14:10

Trump. And something I noticed is

14:12

that they kept speaking about points that

14:14

she had rebutted in the debate. So they

14:16

were like, she's gonna ban fracking in Pennsylvania

14:18

and she's gonna do fun the police. And

14:21

to me, these sound like things that

14:24

Republicans were afraid about four

14:26

years ago. Like, I

14:28

can't even remember the last time I met

14:30

an abolitionist who said defund the police. Like,

14:32

it's such an old slope. Like, the

14:35

conversation isn't even there yet. And

14:37

then I was like, the issue is they don't

14:39

know how to attack her. Yeah,

14:41

it's insane. Cause to her credit, when we

14:44

were accusing her of being the vice president

14:46

who did nothing, the great thing is like,

14:48

you can pin nothing to her. Yeah, they

14:50

were like, okay, so they were like, we

14:52

can't say the black thing, cause that's not

14:54

polling well. Let's not talk about her being

14:56

mixed race because our white dudes at home

14:58

with Asian and black wives are getting pissed

15:00

off. Oh, wow, that's funny. Right, so they're

15:02

like, okay, we're not gonna do that. What

15:06

has she done? We don't know what she's done. Okay,

15:08

defund the police and fracking. And what was

15:10

hard about that is that that woman just

15:12

went up there and was like, I have

15:14

a gun and I'm pro-Israel. So it's like,

15:17

it doesn't, it didn't line up with reality.

15:19

Like, when she said she had a gun, I was

15:21

very shocked. I was like, well, this is a scary

15:23

woman. And I say that as a threat. Yeah,

15:26

but you also say that as someone who does

15:29

want a gun. So I- I

15:31

know, I had my, listen, a woman that does get

15:33

a gun has my full respect. Cause

15:35

she actually acted out on the impulse. And

15:38

she has a gun. She has a gun. She

15:40

was like, me and Tim are gun owners. And

15:42

there were like these sharp turns in it where

15:44

I was like, oh, their big problem is that

15:46

she's probably more of a conservative than Trump is.

15:49

At her core, right? There, if

15:51

you look at her, Christiana. Oh, that's an interesting one.

15:53

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I

15:55

was like, this is a

15:57

Republican light. She'd never be with them. Cause the parties

15:59

aren't as good. and they're not as good looking. But

16:02

this is not a real

16:04

Democrat. Like the more she, like, and I

16:06

think it was like the Israel Palestinian was

16:09

an amazing moment. Yeah. Yes.

16:11

Well, the way she described that, she

16:13

didn't describe that in particularly progressive terms

16:16

and it would be actually quite hawkish by

16:18

even Democrat standards. So when she spoke about

16:20

that, when she caught about gun ownership, when

16:23

she celebrated being a prosecutor, like she wasn't

16:25

hiding mine. She was like, yeah, I locked

16:27

people up and you're like, what,

16:29

I'm sorry. What? Then I was like, Trump, that's

16:31

your problem. You're actually running against another conservative and

16:33

what, and she's black and Indian. What do you

16:36

do with that? I wouldn't know what to do

16:38

personally. I mean, all you

16:40

can do is bring up old talking points,

16:42

like holler or jive turkey. Christiana

16:48

is onto something here. Not only

16:50

did she give these hawkish responses,

16:52

they were her best answers. They

16:55

were her best answers. Her response to

16:58

Ukraine, her response to the Israel Palestine

17:00

question. If you are agnostic on what

17:02

she actually said, they

17:04

were the ones where she was the most

17:06

eloquent. She was the most emotive, really. Like,

17:09

I expected her to be emotive on the

17:11

abortion question and she reaches for that a

17:13

bit, but it doesn't feel nearly as natural

17:15

as when she says, I own a gun

17:17

and I arrest people. Like, that's who she

17:20

is. I think that's who

17:22

she feels like she is in the world. When

17:24

you say that next to someone who

17:26

has only been pretending to be a

17:28

cowboy, Donald Trump doesn't

17:31

own a gun. Trump is afraid of

17:33

guns. I don't know if you've ever seen Donald

17:35

Trump talk about guns. He's terrified. He's

17:37

afraid of guns. Yeah, he's terrified. He

17:40

talks about his sons hunting and

17:42

he talks about them as

17:45

if he has sent anonymous

17:47

tips to the police about his own

17:49

son. That's how Trump talks

17:51

about his sons. He'd be like, my sons, they

17:53

do a lot of hunting, a lot of hunting,

17:55

and they know everything about guns. Sometimes it worries

17:57

me. It worries me a little bit. They

18:00

got a lot of guns, a lot of guns. I

18:02

don't know about that. And you see that even he's

18:04

going like, what are you guys doing? We're billionaires and

18:06

you're running around with guns. But that,

18:09

so that's an interesting point. You, you're basically

18:11

saying, the both of you are saying that

18:13

one of the things Kamala Harris might have

18:15

done right in this debate was

18:18

sort of outflank Trump in

18:20

his own backyard. Yeah, I think

18:22

where she happens to have

18:24

policy that is both fitting to like

18:27

Republicans and is like weirdly democratic in

18:29

a way and exploiting that, I think

18:31

is the best move you can do.

18:33

Because this is the thing that is

18:37

like undeniably cool

18:39

in a way that is going

18:41

to sound weird. But when Kamala

18:43

Harris says, I have a gun,

18:45

and I'm a prosecutor, I don't care what you

18:48

think, I'll shoot you and lock you up. That's,

18:50

that already is like so wild

18:53

that you're like, yo,

18:56

I'm kind of on board. Even as someone

18:58

who like doesn't have a gun and is

19:01

someone who like, you know, doesn't love the

19:03

justice system, I'm still like, damn, she gonna

19:05

shoot you and lock you up. You gonna

19:07

get got, right? And I think,

19:10

I think there's the other thing that, that

19:12

what I like about what she's doing and

19:14

what she did in that debate, I think

19:16

is very smart, that is something that I

19:19

hope more Democrats do when, when the time

19:21

comes in their own races, is that there

19:23

are things that optically Democrats,

19:25

especially liberals don't like, right? Like

19:27

don't like the police, don't like

19:29

justice, stuff like that, right? But

19:32

my thing, and I've been saying this for a

19:34

while, I've been saying this ever since she basically

19:36

became the nominee, I was like, yo, I

19:39

know you don't like the police, but you

19:41

don't like the way that beat

19:43

cops treat people. You like

19:45

the police because when Donald Trump got indicted,

19:48

when he got charged, when he got found

19:50

guilty on 34 counts, didn't y'all celebrate how

19:52

you do that without a justice system? Who

19:54

can do that but a prosecutor? So

19:57

it's like you do like it sometimes,

19:59

it's just that powerful. evil people get

20:01

held accountable so rarely that we don't

20:03

get to celebrate the way that other

20:05

people do who Like when

20:07

poor people get beat up if that makes sense that

20:10

makes that makes complete sense and and I mean

20:13

Yeah, this is I I felt

20:16

that but I won't lie You've given me

20:18

and I think you've given everyone

20:20

listening and a new way to think about it And that

20:22

is the thing the secret weapon

20:24

that Kamala Harris had over Over

20:26

Donald Trump was that she may be more conservative

20:29

than he is in real

20:31

life Yes, yeah, you know what I mean? Like

20:33

like Trump is like Trump is a red in

20:35

the streets, but a blue in the sheets You

20:37

know the baby mama's He's

20:40

basically a rapper he's a trap rapper. Yeah

20:44

Gold toilet him and your dog have the

20:46

same In terms of how we actually go

20:48

right whereas like Harris is Her

20:57

life is quite conservative like no child like

20:59

the things you stereotypically associate with a woman

21:01

of color of age Yeah, yeah, she has

21:03

none of that and What

21:06

was interesting to me was watch her pull

21:08

the Democratic Party? I felt

21:11

felt to the right I don't

21:13

think him I think it's already a centrist

21:15

party, but she pulled it more to the

21:17

right even on things like immigration And I

21:19

was like, oh she clearly doesn't care to

21:21

really Panda to the left

21:23

like I think that they have For

21:26

the last few years, especially on issues

21:28

of identity police reform, etc. Etc. There

21:31

was no Talk of

21:33

that instead It was kind of like this rainbow nation

21:35

where we give you a chance to have a down

21:37

payment on a house and you work hard And you

21:39

get your health care. That was the message which is

21:41

like conservatism You

21:45

work hard and you behave well will help

21:47

you out, right? It's like conservatism like and

21:49

it was interesting for me to watch because

21:51

I'm like she clearly doesn't believe there are

21:53

votes to be Accumulated on the left

21:56

at all. I think she's made the calculation that

21:58

these people are never gonna like me because

22:00

I will shoot you and prosecute you and

22:03

I can't, there's no way I can

22:05

change that record. However, there are independents

22:07

that I can collect or people that

22:10

went from Obama one year to Trump

22:12

the other who came

22:14

back to Biden who may consider Harris if

22:16

she plays her cards right. Well,

22:18

before we get into Trump, let's do this. Let's take a

22:21

quick break. And when we

22:23

come back, let's talk about the

22:25

DGAT ratings machine and how

22:27

he is still able to

22:29

leave everybody shocked watching a screen

22:31

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23:43

What's your biggest challenge about the

23:45

digital world? What's your

23:47

biggest challenge about the digital world? What's your biggest challenge

23:49

about the digital world? Okay, so Kamala

23:52

Harris comes into the debate. She

23:55

shocks everybody because she says everything that

23:57

they thought may be like a trump?

24:00

would say on stage. But

24:03

even if you take away Kamala Harris's

24:05

performance, Donald

24:07

Trump for me felt the

24:09

way Joe Biden felt for

24:12

Democrats when

24:14

they were watching him debate Joe Biden. Do you know what

24:17

I mean? It was that same feeling. Like I

24:19

put myself in the shoes of a MAGA supporter

24:21

and I was like, I would

24:23

not wanna be watching my guy experiencing

24:26

this right now. You

24:29

know, he seemed like he had it in the beginning and

24:32

then it was just, oh man.

24:34

He looked 78. Yes he did.

24:37

Yes he did. He looked 78

24:39

and you know what? You

24:42

cannot as a 78 year old man,

24:44

when you've been refuted say, I saw

24:46

it on the television and we say

24:48

TV, sir. You gotta say TV. Don't

24:51

television sound like you in the past

24:54

right now. Television is too

24:56

long of a word for as dumb a thing as

24:58

you just said. You have to say TV.

25:02

Let me ask you this. Do you think, and

25:05

you know, this reminds me, you know, Josh

25:08

of our experience with fights. So,

25:10

Tressie, like Josh loves fighting.

25:13

Like UFC, boxing, you name it. If

25:15

people are getting punched, Josh Johnson's there.

25:18

And one of the times you

25:20

will see Josh's eyes light up

25:22

the most is when there's

25:24

a fight that's lined up where

25:26

the person who was supposed to fight can

25:29

no longer fight. And so somebody new

25:31

has jumped in at the last minute because they still

25:33

have to have a fight. Because it

25:35

brings with it like a wild card nature. Like

25:38

Josh, you'd see Josh get so excited. He'd be

25:40

like, ooh, you're gonna wanna watch this one. He'd

25:42

be like, mm-mm. The other guy, he doesn't know

25:44

anything about him because the other guy was a

25:46

striker. And this guy, he's gonna choke you and

25:48

you don't know what he's gonna do with submissions

25:50

and nobody knows how this is gonna turn out

25:53

because he came out of nowhere. Mm-mm.

25:57

It feels like that here. It feels like he hasn't

25:59

had a fight. at any time to

26:01

reconcile with the idea of

26:04

going up against a black

26:06

woman who was a prosecutor,

26:09

who is Indian and

26:11

is everything that he doesn't

26:13

know how to speak to or engage with.

26:16

From the moment he shook her hand, this

26:19

man looked extremely uncomfortable. Like he looked

26:21

like he had never shaken a black

26:23

woman's hand. I

26:26

think Donald Trump identifies as someone

26:28

who is good looking. I

26:30

believe he looks

26:33

at, I'm so glad this

26:35

is not a visual medium right now.

26:37

Please repeat that sentence. Please repeat that

26:40

sentence. No, I think if you

26:42

look at the history, he was the New York blonde

26:44

haired, blue eyed, playboy with a lot of money. He

26:46

was. It was like, this is the most eligible. Yes.

26:49

If you look at like old articles about Donald Trump,

26:51

eligible bachelor, which it girl is gonna take. Mega women

26:53

still love him. Yes they do. Yes they do. Women

26:56

were like, this is a gorgeous guy. He's got money,

26:58

he's got BDE, et cetera, et cetera. I think he's

27:00

still, even though he's 78 years old, he

27:03

still identifies primarily as a somebody

27:05

who is attractive. And

27:07

he looks at Kamala Harris and he's like,

27:09

she's attractive too. We're like, we're the same

27:11

type of person. With Hillary's like

27:13

never, with Biden, he's like, no, not as

27:15

good looking as I am. With Kamala, he's

27:18

like fourth wife, perhaps. You

27:20

know, it's just like. I was gonna say she is

27:22

the type of black woman or the type of woman

27:24

of color that if he had any exposure to them

27:26

at all, which again, he does not, he would have

27:28

given a pass. Absolutely. And she

27:31

doesn't want his pass. I get where you're

27:33

going, Christiana. So I think like there's this

27:35

tension of like, we're the same

27:37

type of people. Cause I'm telling you, this guy is

27:39

not as like the political animal people make him out

27:41

to be. He's like, are you rich or are you

27:44

hot? Right? Yep. That's

27:46

just the mainstream. Okay. And

27:48

so you got this woman. Josh is having an attack. No, I

27:50

was so sorry. And this is

27:52

not. I'm so sorry. I'm not doing

27:54

all of. Minish all the other brilliant

27:56

qualities that Kamala Harris has, but he

27:58

primarily looks across. He sees this

28:01

attractive woman insulting him. And

28:03

the moment she said that people walk out

28:05

of your rallies, it was

28:08

done. He was so

28:10

hurt. He wasn't angry. He was

28:12

like, how did, where

28:14

the same, you're supposed to like

28:16

me, how dare you? And

28:18

the other thing about saying how many million

28:21

people fired him. And I think it's just

28:23

beyond all of her identity stuff. I think

28:25

like on a really primordial level, he's like,

28:27

this is a good looking woman who is

28:30

not wowed by me. What do I do?

28:32

And he can never overcome that. And

28:35

that's why he hasn't come up with a good nickname

28:37

for her. Oh, because he likes

28:39

her. Because you can tell. Because he likes her. That's why he

28:41

was like, did you see the Time Magazine cover? They made her

28:43

look so beautiful. She looked

28:45

like Melania. And I was like,

28:47

what? And I'm like, this is the

28:50

land. I don't know. I just

28:52

think there's some, I could be wrong, but I think

28:54

there's something to that. I like this, this is provocative.

28:56

I think you're right. I love provocative. And

28:58

I'm going to double down on it

29:01

and say, Kamala Harris, one of her

29:03

attributes is, she's been beautiful her whole

29:05

life. She knows how to handle someone

29:07

like a Donald Trump in politics and

29:10

in business. A man who expects her

29:12

to engage with him in a certain

29:14

way and to leverage that to her

29:16

benefit. She didn't wake

29:18

up fine yesterday. She's been fine

29:21

like literally the whole life. And in fact, from

29:23

both the left and the right during her political

29:25

career, lots of men have

29:27

gotten in trouble for commenting on, ooh Kamala,

29:29

she beautiful. That was Barack, by

29:31

the way. A few years back. That's right.

29:34

Off the record says something about how, oh, she's

29:36

the best looking attorney general that we've got. I

29:38

mean, this has been part of her story

29:42

to power, which it would be for any

29:44

beautiful woman. But yeah, I can imagine it

29:46

complicates it when she is a beautiful woman

29:48

who is not supposed to be a beautiful

29:50

woman to someone like Donald Trump. And

29:53

stares him down in a way that he

29:55

probably finds a bit attractive, but

29:58

he's also like, you're trying to tell. You're going, you're

30:00

going fraudy in here. You're going deep

30:03

fraud on this. I know. I

30:05

could be wrong. Oh man, Christiana, you

30:08

took us, you took us into like

30:10

fan fiction. Like,

30:13

no, I mean, and I, and I mean. It's the

30:15

politics of beauty. It is, it is. Trevor, it's the

30:17

politics of beauty. Yes. And I

30:19

think that that is a huge role in both covers. No,

30:21

but here's the thing, here's the thing. Here's the thing. I'm

30:23

not saying, I'm not saying this is, I'm not saying this

30:26

is crazy at all. I'm just saying it has taken us

30:28

down a hole of something

30:30

that is, cause here's the thing,

30:33

were it not Donald Trump, I would

30:35

be like, this is a very funny theory. Ha ha ha.

30:37

Great. Thanks for entertaining us. But

30:39

there are a few things that could explain why

30:41

he acted the way he did, other than what

30:43

you just said. So for instance, did you see

30:45

him at the 9-11 Memorial? He

30:49

did something that he almost

30:51

never does. He

30:53

was standing next to Mike Bloomberg, former

30:55

New York city mayor, and

30:58

Joe Biden is standing next to him, and Kamala

31:00

Harris is standing next to him. And

31:03

Trump says

31:05

to Mike Bloomberg, or

31:07

to somebody else, he says, he

31:09

like gesture, you can see it. He

31:11

basically goes, sort of like, call Kamala.

31:14

Like he like gestures towards her, and

31:17

he makes the first like move to

31:19

greet her. And somebody taps

31:21

her and says, Donald Trump is trying to, and

31:23

then she turns and she's like, oh, hey, how

31:25

you doing? And she like comes over and she

31:28

shakes his hand, and he like, he

31:30

lingers and he holds her hand, and he tries to

31:32

pull her in a little bit, and she's got

31:34

a grip like she was trained by every uncle

31:37

in the hood who told them what to do

31:39

when a man holds her hand. She, and she

31:41

holds him firm, she doesn't let, but I

31:43

have not seen Donald Trump on very, on

31:45

many occasions, be the person who initiates a

31:47

greeting or a contact, or

31:50

be the person who lingers after that contact has

31:52

been made. And now the idea that Donald Trump

31:54

was on stage with a crush is

31:57

one of my favorite theories. I never thought I

31:59

would. I'm not

32:02

Josh your mind right now. You look

32:04

okay. No, no because this thing that

32:06

Christian's done now I'm thinking Trump just

32:08

trying to win so that he could

32:10

have a peaceful transfer of power so

32:12

he can hopefully be alone with cobbler

32:23

Hey, I'm sick of this

32:25

everyone's everyone's asking will there won't

32:27

they? And I've already Okay, the

32:29

record drunk said that me and

32:31

I've already together

32:35

in perfect harmony This

32:38

is the moment when I put on a point for real as Someone

32:42

who has had their feelings hurt by many

32:44

beautiful women It's a hard thing

32:46

to come back from in real time Like

32:49

it like like if you if you

32:51

get roasted and you're like guys wait

32:54

You're supposed to be in it with me

32:56

cuz remember, okay This is this is a

32:58

good example cuz Trevor you point this out

33:00

years ago Do you remember whenever they got

33:03

caught on that hot mic? It was it

33:05

was Trudeau and it was Boris

33:08

I think yeah in front of Trump

33:10

and then he heard it Yeah,

33:14

and McCrong was very hurt and you

33:16

can hear his heart for real cuz

33:18

he do like personally hurt He didn't

33:20

even get nasty. That's how hurt he

33:22

was He didn't even get like well,

33:24

you know McCrong's like short and Boris.

33:26

No, he didn't do that He was

33:28

like, oh, yeah, you know, I guess

33:30

politics can be fake sometimes And

33:36

I think that to Christian's point that

33:38

hurt thing is like

33:42

You have to get your get back in

33:44

a way. That's like I

33:46

need the other person to give me

33:48

something now Which is why I have

33:50

to keep engaging with them Yeah Does

33:52

that make sense what I'm saying because

33:54

people have said horrific stuff against him

33:56

in the debates when they were other

33:58

Republicans and he just she

36:01

paused as if she was allowing every single one of

36:03

us at home to throw in the word that she

36:05

was not saying. She paused at

36:08

some point and she went to know that

36:10

this, beep, former

36:13

president, and she paused for

36:15

so long that you could do this bitch,

36:17

this mother, she like, she

36:19

paused with so much

36:21

intention. But I don't know, I,

36:24

okay, like, like, let's talk about the cats,

36:26

the Haitian cats thing, the cats and

36:29

dogs, you know, story. This

36:32

is what I find myself asking, I go, do

36:34

you think Donald Trump actually believes that? Or

36:38

do you think Donald Trump believes that people

36:40

believe it? Or do you think he's only

36:42

using it as a political tool? Because I

36:45

don't know when I'm watching that clip. I've watched it again

36:47

and again and again. I see what looks

36:49

like belief in his eyes, but I can't tell if he

36:52

just believes that people are saying it, or if he actually

36:54

believes that these Haitian

36:56

immigrants are eating people's pets. I

36:58

don't think he believes it with passion. I think

37:00

that he believes it, I

37:02

think he believes it, like you said,

37:05

that people are saying it and as

37:07

a political tool. I don't think that

37:09

he saw that news and that

37:11

rumor, which is just a Facebook rumor, and

37:14

that he was like, oh, y'all, we have to take

37:16

action, this is crazy. I think

37:18

that he had, once again,

37:20

the 78-year-old, old

37:22

man reaction of like, I'm

37:25

never gonna be over there, but I

37:27

believe what you're saying about what's happening over

37:29

there. Jen sounds right. He

37:31

had a very Fox News reaction to it. The reason I think

37:34

he believes, and I do think he's getting

37:36

a little more unhinged,

37:39

is because for the past four years, he's

37:41

just been stewing about

37:43

this loss that he believes was

37:45

stolen from him. Like everyone says,

37:47

it's like, oh, it's a

37:49

conspiracy, but to him, it's true, and that's the

37:52

powerful thing about conspiracies. And I just think he's

37:54

kind of been stewing in

37:56

his penthouse wherever he is,

37:59

scrolling on truth. social with his

38:01

Twitter burner. He's in the graveyards

38:03

of TikTok and Instagram, all the

38:05

weirdest places on the internet. And

38:07

I think he does believe

38:09

these things and he's getting stranger because

38:11

I can't imagine Trump eight

38:14

years ago saying that people are eating

38:16

cats and dogs. No,

38:18

I can imagine him saying it. Can you? Can

38:20

you trust me? Yeah, no, I can imagine. What

38:22

I think has happened here is he is responding

38:24

to the algorithm, where as

38:26

traditional politicians respond to polling, the

38:28

algorithm is feeding him what he

38:30

wants. But what used

38:32

to be true is that it was

38:35

also feeding people like him that same

38:37

content. There aren't enough people now on

38:39

Truth Social getting the same meme about

38:41

eating pets. And he thinks they are

38:43

because you know, you know, TikTok, you

38:45

think everybody saw that same TikTok you

38:47

saw. Right. But if you

38:49

go and you try to talk to someone

38:52

in the real world about the demure, you

38:54

know, being mindful, being demure, they have no

38:56

idea what you're talking about. I'm sorry, that

38:58

is a very popular TikTok on my TikTok.

39:00

But he can. Oh,

39:02

no, that's I think that's pretty. Is that it is

39:05

breaking through? That's great to know. No, no, that's getting

39:07

out. But his or not. The algorithm

39:09

that's feeding him, him information is coming

39:11

through again. Nobody's on Truth Social that

39:13

matters. His burner on

39:15

Twitter wouldn't be tapped into the fire hose

39:18

of ideas of Twitter. It is now in

39:20

the, you know, in

39:22

the echo chambers of Twitter. And

39:24

so it feels real, but it would have

39:27

felt more real to him four

39:29

years ago. He would have said something just

39:31

as insane, but there would have been many

39:33

more, I think, hundreds of thousands of people

39:35

who would say, yeah, no, I'm getting the

39:37

same message. Yeah. Trustee,

39:39

do you know what? The funny thing is

39:41

I consider myself who someone who's chronically online

39:43

to the detriment of my mental health. But

39:47

I had never heard that cats and dogs

39:49

thing. I

39:51

had to look it up. Right. And I'm someone

39:54

that's like on the internet as part of my

39:56

job. So then I'm

39:58

like, he's just, he is in. QAnon

40:00

land so beyond even those people are

40:03

like, what are you talking about? And

40:06

I think that is a sign that

40:08

he's crazier. No. I

40:10

think he got it from the

40:13

first I saw it actually was JD Vance. So

40:16

I've tried to trace it backwards from where I first

40:18

saw it. But the first example

40:21

of that that I've seen on mine is

40:23

some neo-Nazi at like a town

40:25

hall meeting who starts this whole thing sort of

40:27

publicly. And I, you know, Facebook

40:29

as well. But I think it was actually JD

40:31

Vance. And I think we

40:34

talk about Donald Trump and

40:36

his missteps, et cetera, et cetera. I

40:39

think the big thing we really take for

40:41

granted this time around is

40:43

how stabilizing a force Mike Pence

40:45

was in Donald Trump's life. Like

40:49

sort of to what you're saying, Tracy is like Mike

40:52

Pence wasn't in conspiracy land. Mike

40:54

Pence was just a staunch conservative

40:57

Christian man who believed that

40:59

a woman's place was a woman's place and a man's

41:01

place was a man's place. And this was ordained by

41:03

God. And that's what was going to happen. Like

41:06

I think that JD Vance is part

41:08

of like a little bubble that's not

41:10

helping Donald Trump stay on track because

41:13

JD Vance has been saying the thing about Haitians

41:16

eating cats and and Mike Pence, you find wouldn't have

41:18

said that Mike Pence would have probably been like, this

41:20

is not true or this is a scam. But what

41:22

he would have gone to is he would have he

41:24

would have said to Trump, yeah, the real issue is

41:27

immigration as a whole. Like

41:29

don't don't get bogged down in the

41:31

cats and the dogs of the Haitians

41:33

and Ohio. And no, just focus on

41:35

immigration. Talk about the country. And

41:37

I think that now Trump has created

41:40

a world that is only

41:42

full of people who are in his

41:44

tweet mentions and replies. Yeah,

41:46

I think he doesn't have anybody saying to

41:49

him, no, don't say that one. I

41:51

exactly. I think maybe the worst

41:54

thing that Trump has done is

41:57

get closer to his son. I

41:59

think. I think that like... You've got

42:01

to be specific about which one. Okay. Because

42:04

I think you're saying Don Jr. Yes, I'm

42:06

saying Don Jr. Okay. Because Don

42:08

Jr. is apparently the, you know,

42:10

why he picked J.D. Vance. And

42:12

J.D. Vance is like feeding him

42:15

the most like actually humorless,

42:17

least charismatic takes and

42:20

information. Yes. Because

42:22

this is my thing. If you take

42:25

away the like the cats and

42:27

dogs thing for a second, if

42:29

you're trying to get that point

42:31

across, there are probably other stories

42:33

you can twist that you have

42:36

verifiable proof happened. Yes.

42:38

This is a weird thing to bring

42:40

to someone because it's insanity, right? And

42:42

so to have it brought to you

42:44

and then to have it seconded by

42:46

someone who's also like too

42:48

online and too weird in his

42:50

own way, and then you repeat

42:52

it and then they leave you out to dry because

42:55

they back you up on it, but they leave you

42:57

out to dry because they're the ones that have to

42:59

face the actual interviews in a way. Yeah. So

43:01

then when Collins is talking to J.D. Vance, it's

43:04

like those are rougher

43:06

interviews than people

43:08

realize because you

43:10

open yourself up to some pretty bad

43:14

reasoning and dark stuff against you when

43:16

you say that you want evidence that

43:18

there's no evidence because we don't have

43:20

any evidence that there's no evidence with

43:22

stuff that you may have done or

43:25

not done. Yeah. Right. Right.

43:28

And so I think that J.D. and Don Jr.

43:30

have also taken him to a place to look

43:32

crazier because he's a gullible person that believes stuff

43:35

and he's believing crazier

43:37

stuff. I just don't know

43:39

if he's actually crazier, but I

43:41

think I fully agree with what Tressie is saying

43:43

about how he used to have

43:45

his finger on the pulse and you'll see

43:47

like with a lot of content creators because at

43:50

the end of the day, that's what he

43:52

is. Yes, Josh. Like a lot

43:54

of content creators, you'll see when

43:56

they don't have the people anymore, that's when they go off

43:58

the deep end. Yeah. Like that's

44:00

exactly right. I stopped getting the views

44:02

and all of a sudden I'm in

44:05

the woods like I'm just So

44:08

one of the things He's

44:12

not only weird I My

44:15

sense of him and I feel

44:17

strongly about this. He is not on

44:19

Trump's team He's

44:21

not Trump's guy. He's

44:23

not there for wait. What do you mean? I

44:26

think Josh is right. He's Don

44:28

Jr's guy. I don't think

44:30

he is there to make Trump better I

44:33

don't think he is there to Moderate

44:35

Trump. I don't think he is there. I don't

44:38

think he cares really if Trump wins Jadie

44:41

Vance is Don's pick and he

44:43

is there for Jadie Vance in

44:46

a way that That

44:49

Mike Pence not because he

44:51

loved Donald Trump, but because he was a

44:53

traditionalist If I am

44:55

the VP, this is what a VP does.

44:57

I believe in order. I believe in hierarchy,

44:59

right? So I will tow the

45:01

line Jadie Vance is not

45:04

towing anyone's line because JD Vance is

45:06

there to be the more sensible sounding

45:08

Trump eventually He is

45:10

interviewing for the top job while

45:12

pretending to support Trump So

45:15

not only is I think he weird and

45:17

probably feeding him some of the weirdest stuff

45:19

He has no impulse to make Trump sound

45:21

better Yeah,

45:24

like he's I think he wants to

45:27

make it he wants Trump

45:29

to win obviously because he's on the ticket

45:31

But I think that JD Vance wants to

45:33

get into the White House with Trump the

45:35

way that you want to make a flight Just

45:38

barely like you you

45:40

want to slide in there because if

45:42

Trump barely wins But then

45:44

JD can now rise up or start to

45:46

make him look crazy While

45:48

he's president. I think he tried to house a

45:51

cards game of Thrones But he's not gonna

45:53

say this reminds me of everything I know

45:55

about succession, right? He's some you know, like

45:57

he's a family plan to make the Patriots

46:01

think he's losing his mind and

46:03

to help facilitate this downfall. Not

46:05

that I think Don Jr. is that coordinated, but I

46:08

think JD Vance is that much of a savage. We'll

46:11

be right back after this. The

46:21

thing that I found

46:23

myself coming back to for this debate in

46:25

particular was, it

46:27

felt like Trump fell into

46:29

every trap that Kamala said for him.

46:33

We all knew about the trap coming in. We

46:35

all knew. I mean, they even talked about it on

46:37

Fox News. Some of the Fox News commentators were saying,

46:39

you know, the main thing Donald Trump has to do

46:42

is make sure he doesn't say anything sexist and

46:44

nothing racist, even if they bait him. Don't say it, which

46:47

I don't know why I found that hilarious. I

46:49

was like, the fact that you are out saying

46:51

publicly that he shouldn't, he shouldn't fall for it.

46:53

He shouldn't say something racist. I'm like, but why,

46:55

why would he enlist? But anyway, and

46:58

then he went into these rants. I mean,

47:01

he went into like the solar panels rant.

47:03

He went, he went back into ishy black.

47:05

Like I read it. I, it was something

47:07

I read and the, and then

47:09

it got to a point where, to

47:12

your point, Tressy, you know, where he went from being

47:14

the person making the joke to the punch line when

47:17

he's out there taking the illegal

47:20

aliens who are in prison and

47:23

they're making them transgender, even

47:27

the most conservative right

47:30

person, what, unless you are deep

47:32

in like, you now have to

47:34

ask yourself a question. You have to be like, wait,

47:36

wait, wait. I'm sorry. What did you say? Yeah. They

47:39

are now taking illegal

47:42

aliens and making them trans,

47:45

like now your theories are in your own theories about

47:47

what's, do you know what I mean? When

47:50

I watched it yesterday, something I realized

47:52

is that along with

47:54

the JD Vances, he has a

47:56

lot of ultra right wing people in his corner

47:58

and they are the ones doing. the prep for

48:00

the debate, hence the

48:03

conspiracies he was spewing. And

48:05

what I realized, I was like, you know,

48:07

we've had these very public endorsements from like

48:09

Dick Cheney, which to me is a red

48:11

flag. You'd be like, why is Cheney endorsing

48:14

Kamala Harris? But that's my, that's my own

48:16

kind of, like you're getting all of these

48:18

very traditional Republicans coming out and saying, yeah,

48:20

we are here for Harris, right? And

48:23

Mitch McConnell is nowhere to be found. Like all

48:25

of these people that we know are operators and

48:28

they kind of sanitized Trump the last time they

48:30

were like, okay, we're going to get behind him

48:32

because we need the Supreme Court to pick. Like

48:34

we hate this guy, but we're going to fix

48:37

him and make him look

48:39

somewhat palatable, right? And they did

48:41

a good enough job of that

48:44

to get him elected president. And

48:46

then last time they were like, well, we've

48:48

got what we want from him. We're going

48:51

to abandon him. And I think when I

48:53

saw him yesterday and he was saying like

48:55

these really wacky conspiracies, I was like, oh,

48:57

he's been abandoned by the right wing establishment.

49:00

That was all I felt. I felt the

49:02

people that coached him and prepped him before

49:04

were able to sanitize him and were able

49:06

for him to say like, you guys feel

49:08

broke. The economy is terrible. Oh, right. Because

49:10

he was able to resonate like the message

49:13

about Mexicans. They clearly knew there was enough

49:15

sentiment out there that if you're anti Mexican,

49:17

you can get away with it. But most

49:19

people were like, Haitians, who the hell are

49:21

they? I was like, people are like, they

49:23

had to. You were trying to get us

49:25

to have an enemy that we were not

49:27

even familiar enough with Haiti in

49:29

the psychic imagination of Americans to be like, we

49:32

consider them an enemy. Right. And so when I

49:34

watched him yesterday, I was just like, it's interesting.

49:36

You know, they talk about the deep. He talks

49:38

about the deep state. But I'm like, well, the

49:41

deep state have clearly said we're not helping you

49:43

this time. That's what it felt like for me.

49:45

And that's why I think he fell into all

49:47

of these traps because before they would have said

49:50

to him, just talk about the economy, talk about

49:52

how high the interest rate is, talk about the

49:54

fact I should work for him, talk about the

49:56

fact that this is how much it costs to

49:58

put gas in your tank. You know what

50:00

I mean? Talk about the fact that like, even with

50:03

the affirmative action ruling, you still can't get your kid

50:05

into the college that they want. Those are the things

50:07

that are going to get people riled up. And he,

50:09

for me, he didn't touch any of that. But Tressy, I

50:12

don't know how you feel. So Tressy, when

50:14

you... Yeah, absolutely. He misdiagnosed the

50:16

enemy because his information is both

50:18

dated and again, extremely insular. And

50:20

I could not agree more about

50:22

the deep state having abandoned him,

50:25

because all Trump's, Trump's main power has

50:27

been he was a very useful and

50:29

willing idiot. He was

50:32

very useful for a strategy that had been

50:34

in play for 30, 35 years. This

50:37

is a strategy that they had been

50:40

executing ever since Ronald Reagan. He was

50:42

willing to take it the final step

50:44

because he has no actual real political

50:46

career to defend. It's frankly too self-centered

50:49

to care about his legacy, the traditional

50:51

things that a politician would care about.

50:54

So he's useful for their purposes. He

50:56

is not only less useful now because

50:58

they've got the Supreme Court, they've got

51:00

a ridiculous amount of gerrymandering. You

51:02

don't really need them. But I want to add

51:05

something else. They were terrified by

51:07

January 6th. The

51:09

deep state relies on the state. They

51:12

do not want any... You know who

51:14

they hate? They hate those people who

51:17

showed up dressed like Vikings looking

51:20

ridiculous. They hate those people.

51:22

They use them. They court

51:24

them for votes. But the fact that they

51:27

came to their front lawn and were looking

51:29

them in their face, they hate that. They

51:31

never want to interact with that

51:33

person. They don't want to interact with the

51:36

Trump voter. They just want the Trump voter

51:38

to vote for them. And so his willingness

51:40

to invite them into that inner... To invite

51:42

his crazy followers into that inner

51:44

circle, terrifies, I think,

51:46

the people who had been helping to

51:48

shape him and make him more palatable.

51:51

And he's less useful to them. They

51:53

don't really need him. And so abandoning

51:56

them not only becomes easy, it now

51:58

becomes self-interested to do it. Yeah,

52:01

you got to do it. If you have things and

52:04

people start breaking things, and these are broke people,

52:06

by the way, a lot of these people are

52:08

broke. A lot of these people spent the last

52:11

of the money that they had to get to

52:13

Washington to do this thing. You're like, hey, hey,

52:15

no, not when the pores are breaking stuff. No,

52:19

thank you, right? And so

52:21

you as an elite, you're like,

52:23

what elite is there if y'all

52:25

ruin? There were people that climbed

52:27

the wall next to the stairs.

52:29

I can't be around these people.

52:33

The stairs were right there. And look,

52:35

look, I'm all for, I really am.

52:37

I'm one of those people that if

52:39

you bring me a bad enough policy

52:41

or a corrupt enough government, I'm one

52:43

of those shut it down, let's see,

52:46

like we may have to restart, whatever,

52:48

right? But if we storming and

52:50

you are climbing next to the stairs, I'm

52:52

turning around. I don't care what our cause

52:54

is. You could

52:57

be right, but I gotta go. I

52:59

can't just be out here and you climbing next to

53:01

the stairs and I'm on the stairs and we gonna

53:03

do the same amount of jail time. That's a good

53:05

point. That's a very good point, Josh. Oh,

53:08

man. Oh, Josh,

53:11

the idea that this all turned

53:13

for Trump when they started climbing

53:15

that wall. Oh,

53:18

we're gonna wrap up soon, but I think there are

53:21

two ideas I just want us to chat about. So

53:25

the debate happened. It may be the only

53:27

debate because Donald Trump has come

53:29

out and basically said he doesn't want to

53:31

fight Kamala Harris again because

53:34

he beat her so badly. He used boxing,

53:36

Josh, as an analogy. He said

53:38

she was terrible and he absolutely destroyed her and

53:40

he doesn't think it would be fair to go

53:42

up against her again. So this may be the

53:44

only debate. And you know, Tressie,

53:46

I mean, you spend so much time analyzing

53:49

the mind and people and society. And

53:52

let me ask you this question. What

53:54

do you think a debate is supposed

53:57

to be and

53:59

what do you think it is? So

54:03

the debate is, has

54:06

morphed into the ultimate

54:08

political theater. I think

54:11

it makes us feel like we

54:13

have more direct participation and control

54:15

in the political process than we

54:18

have. Right? So the idea that

54:20

I, an informed voter, I like

54:22

the idea of myself as being

54:24

an informed citizen, this

54:26

is us taking the class, right? This is

54:28

us taking election 101. We sit down, we

54:31

listen to the professors and it feeds

54:33

into our sense that we make informed decisions,

54:36

right? We are the informed voters, the people

54:38

who don't pay attention, they are the bad

54:40

voters, they're doing it the wrong way. And

54:43

that's a really seductive way to

54:45

feel when the actual electoral process

54:47

has become way more hostile to

54:50

voters mattering to the process, right?

54:52

One of the reasons why Donald

54:54

Trump is still so competitive is

54:56

just that he's a Republican and

54:58

the process is set up for

55:01

a Republican nominee to be competitive.

55:03

You could literally put curious

55:05

George up as one of the major

55:07

party candidates and he's got a poll

55:09

pretty well. So, you

55:12

know, this is a two-party system with

55:14

an electoral college process that means that

55:16

the individual voter does not matter quite

55:18

as much as we like to think

55:20

that we do, you know,

55:22

matters to turn out and matters to

55:24

enthusiasm, that kind of thing. But the

55:27

structure is really, really fixed right now.

55:29

And the debate makes us feel empowered,

55:31

right? Makes us feel like we have

55:33

some say. That's what it does, what

55:35

we think it does anyway. I think

55:37

what it has turned into in our

55:40

media moment is a little distinct. It

55:43

has lost, I think, actually some

55:45

of its ability to compel attention.

55:48

We watch it. It's our jobs to watch it.

55:50

We love this stuff, right? Yeah.

55:52

I went outside the

55:55

night of the convention and I live in a

55:57

pretty literate part of the country where, again, people

55:59

like to be think of themselves as deeply informed

56:02

voters. And yes, some people were watching it, but

56:04

there were lots of people walking up and down

56:06

the street watching the debate

56:08

on the televisions in the bar,

56:10

just going, wait, was there a debate tonight? And

56:13

I think that is just as

56:15

likely as the informed voter concept.

56:17

And so I think it has

56:19

lost some of its

56:21

appeal as like political entertainment, which

56:23

is why the people who do

56:26

the horse race political

56:28

punditry are so obsessed with it. It's

56:30

kind of one of the last things

56:33

we as a media class have, where

56:35

we all have to convene and we

56:37

all have to pay attention. But my

56:39

sense is that its power with the

56:41

general audience is waning. But

56:43

it is still important, I think, for making

56:46

us feel like we are participating. And it

56:48

is important for a candidate like Kamala Harris,

56:50

who is potentially

56:52

transformative and unique, to

56:55

go out there before whatever public is watching,

56:58

to say, I'm sane,

57:00

I'm reasonable, and

57:03

I can do this job. I think it matters

57:05

to that type of candidate. Yeah,

57:07

it was a... I

57:09

mean, look, I'm happy that Kamala Harris

57:11

got the shot. In

57:15

the world of fighting, you can only win

57:17

the fights that you're given. I

57:19

will always be grateful to Donald Trump for

57:21

giving her the opportunity to step into the

57:23

ring with him. Because otherwise, we wouldn't have

57:26

gotten this. People wouldn't have gotten

57:28

the experience. When she came out and shook his

57:30

hand and said, I'm Kamala Harris, it was such

57:32

a slick move because it felt like it wasn't

57:34

about him. It was introducing

57:36

herself to us, to everyone out

57:38

there. And I don't

57:41

know, it felt like we are

57:43

one step closer to seeing something

57:45

that people thought would be impossible

57:48

just like three months ago. I

57:52

won't make the mistake of asking you where you think this is

57:54

gonna go, Tracy, because I know what you say and

57:57

I know how your brain thinks about this. But...

58:00

Yeah, I'm gonna say thank you for joining us.

58:02

Thank you for joining us after the debate. Thank

58:05

you for watching it with us. And yeah,

58:07

you've given me a lot to think about.

58:10

You know, I'll think about politics again. Differently, I'll

58:12

think about the debate differently. Thank you so much

58:15

for joining us. Thank you, Trese. What

58:17

Now with Trevinoa is produced

58:20

by Spotify Studios. In

58:30

partnership with Day Zero Productions. The

58:33

show is executive produced by Trevinoa,

58:35

Sanaaz Yamin and Jodie Avigan. Our

58:38

senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire

58:40

Slaughter is our producer. Music,

58:43

mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown.

58:46

Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday

58:48

for another episode of What Now.