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0:55

I think people sometimes take for granted

0:58

that a scam artist doesn't necessarily

1:00

fail, right? You know, we're talking

1:02

to one of my producers earlier

1:04

and we're like, 10 years ago

1:07

today, Elon Musk said, he was

1:09

like, in 10 years, we will

1:11

be on Mars. He's like, I'll

1:13

do it, we're gonna be on

1:16

Mars. We're still here baby. You

1:18

know what I mean? Yeah. Okay,

1:20

Trump's a simple one. What did

1:22

Trump say? Never forget it. He

1:25

said, day one, we're going to

1:27

bring down the price of eggs.

1:29

They're coming down, folks. We're

1:32

going to bring it

1:34

down. Folks, we're going

1:36

to bring it. They've

1:38

done nothing. They've done

1:40

nothing. Eggs have only

1:42

gone. Upsence he came

1:44

in its power. Thanks

1:46

like you've never seen.

1:48

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1:51

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1:53

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3:27

Chafkin, welcome to the podcast. Thank

3:29

you for having me. You know what

3:31

I love about what you do

3:33

is, I mean you're deeply ingrained in

3:35

the world of reporting around finance

3:37

and business and tech and everything. But

3:40

I'm oftentimes amused and enthralled

3:43

by people who seem to be

3:45

in a place where they

3:47

were well ahead of something before

3:49

other people saw it. And

3:51

I wonder sometimes if it's luck

3:53

or if it's them having

3:55

like a premonition. You host a

3:57

podcast called Elon Inc. Right

4:00

and I remember the first time I

4:02

saw the podcast I was like, huh?

4:04

Like wow, is there gonna be enough

4:06

material? We had the same concern.

4:08

No, you did. I mean to

4:11

some extent. Yeah, or there were

4:13

definitely people around it who wondered

4:15

But of course, you know, it's turned

4:17

out it's worked out like he said

4:19

like Elon Musk is everywhere right now

4:22

even before he was you know involved with

4:24

Donald Trump we were making this argument

4:26

like no you don't understand he's this

4:28

he's this big cultural figure yes he's

4:30

he's a mega billionaire he has more

4:33

influence than maybe anyone on the planet

4:35

and then of course he became you

4:37

know obviously very closely into Donald Trump

4:39

became his number one campaign donor and

4:41

de facto you know senior advisor or

4:44

however you want to think of it

4:46

it does feel Yeah, like we're ahead of

4:48

something. On the other hand, I think

4:50

even people who have been following this

4:52

man for a really long time, and

4:55

I met him, I think for the

4:57

first time in like 2007, so I've

4:59

been covering him for many, many years,

5:01

even so it's been very surprising to

5:03

watch the kind of transformation over the

5:06

last couple of years, and then

5:08

what's happened over the last, you

5:10

know, four or five months. Right.

5:12

The reason, I really wanted to have

5:14

you on so that we could chat

5:16

with you today, I think it's easy

5:18

to make the conversation about Elon Musk

5:20

and for us to like hyper focus

5:23

on it because it's happening right now.

5:25

But what I think, where I think

5:27

you're uniquely positioned is because of

5:29

your expertise, I think you can help

5:31

us paint a picture that gives us

5:34

a larger idea of what we're

5:36

experiencing because you also wrote many

5:38

people argue like the definitive biography

5:41

on Peter Thiel, right? And now

5:43

I've learned a lot of people, you

5:45

say Peter Thiel, they're like what's that? Like

5:47

a lot of people, you say Peter

5:49

Thiel, and they go, what is that?

5:51

And then some people really know the

5:53

name, and some people don't, and the

5:55

people who know it sometimes will say,

5:58

oh, forget Elon Musk, Peter Thiel. is

6:00

the puppet master who's running all

6:02

of this. So I guess to

6:04

set the scene for this conversation,

6:06

when we talk about the technocrats

6:08

or the tech elites or the

6:11

tech, like, who are we actually

6:13

speaking about? So it's like Elon

6:15

Musk, Peter Thiel, who would you

6:17

count in that echelon? I would

6:19

add Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Basos, um.

6:22

And then I would throw in

6:24

some other investors. Mark Andreessen, probably

6:26

a name that is less familiar

6:28

to people, but the founder of

6:30

Netscape, who's now a major venture

6:33

capitalist, also advising Trump right now.

6:35

And then there's this kind of

6:37

like larger universe of... guys who

6:39

are connected to Teale who are

6:41

involved in politics at the moment.

6:44

David Sachs, who's like running Trump's

6:46

AI and crypto initiatives. And it's

6:48

sort of a list of venture

6:50

capitalists and so on. What actually

6:52

made this kind of helpful in

6:54

investigating it is that Teale and

6:57

his cohort you know call themselves

6:59

the paypal mafia they they actually

7:01

like they don't identify yeah as

7:03

an influence network and uh... you

7:05

on musk you started company in

7:08

the.com during the.com bubble and then

7:10

started a company that merged with

7:12

paypal effectively became like a co-founder

7:14

of paypal so he was in

7:16

that paypal mafia although he and

7:19

teal were kind of like rivals

7:21

sort of friends frenemies uh... over

7:23

over a number of years teal

7:25

invested in his companies must invest

7:27

in teals hedge fund there's a

7:29

lot of you know back scratching

7:32

or whatever going on in this

7:34

world the way i see it

7:36

you know teal was a prominent

7:38

backer of don't trump in twenty

7:40

sixteen he was kind of the

7:43

first tech guy to back Trump,

7:45

to say like, yeah, this is

7:47

the guy. He spoke at the

7:49

RNC, the Republican National Convention, he

7:51

donated a little more than a

7:54

million dollars in October of 2016.

7:56

That was after the Access Hollywood

7:58

thing. Wow. And then join. the

8:00

Trump administration or join the transition

8:02

anyway with this idea of attacking

8:04

the quote-unquote administrative state that which

8:07

is really similar to what Elon

8:09

Musk is trying to do right

8:11

now with doge yeah exactly When

8:13

I wrote that book on Thiel,

8:15

he had kind of all these

8:18

secret connections with various like right

8:20

wingers. And Thiel was operating kind

8:22

of behind the scenes and you're

8:24

looking at like, oh, did he

8:26

consort with this extremist or that

8:29

extremist? And he was sort of

8:31

playing footsie with the far right.

8:33

Musk is just supercharging it, right?

8:35

So it's just this kind of

8:37

like dramatic. acceleration of what

8:39

these tech guys have been up to for

8:41

a very long time. I'd like to go

8:43

back before you started the podcast.

8:46

Why Elon? What made you feel that

8:48

this is the guy to dig into? I mean,

8:50

so just at the most basic level,

8:52

he is, I mean, he's either

8:54

the world, depending on the day,

8:57

right? He's now far away the

8:59

world's richest person, but at various

9:01

times he's been like top two,

9:04

top three. He's one of the

9:06

wealthiest people on the planet. He

9:08

owns... Two very important companies. Tesla

9:10

Motors, he's a significant shareholder in

9:13

Tesla Motors, CEO, effectively controls company.

9:15

Tesla is the most valuable car

9:17

company. It is the leading player

9:19

in electric cars, so in certain

9:22

ways. you know, the leading player

9:24

for the future of cars. He

9:26

also owns this gigantic defense contractor,

9:28

SpaceX, which is the leading provider

9:30

of rocket launch services to satellite

9:32

players and to the US government.

9:34

And he's got a bunch of

9:36

other little companies. And then he

9:38

has this, as I said earlier,

9:40

like this cultural impact. It's not

9:42

just that Musk is rich and,

9:44

you know, controls a lot of

9:46

people's livelihoods. People are really into

9:48

him. I mean, he has a

9:50

story. that has captivated to some

9:52

extent the world, right? There's like a lot of

9:54

young people who look up to him and want

9:56

to be him, and then you layer on top

9:59

of that, of course. his pension for being

10:01

weird. He's he's he's he's he

10:03

has he has crazy beliefs. He

10:05

has this complicated very complicated involved

10:07

personal and romantic life or whatever

10:09

as a father of you know

10:11

14 children that we know of

10:13

maybe you know knows perhaps more.

10:15

And he's always been you know

10:17

right at the edge of doing

10:19

what is reasonable. people who are

10:21

coming to it fresh are like

10:23

what happened to Elon Musk and

10:25

people who have been covering Elon

10:27

Musk for a long time are

10:29

like well like let me tell

10:31

you like when he like fake

10:33

acquire like did a fake private

10:35

offer and had a huge fight

10:37

with the SEC and then you

10:39

know sort of kind of told

10:41

the SEC to suck Elon's cock

10:43

and like you can kind of

10:45

go back like he's always been

10:47

this incredibly I don't know for

10:49

like a better word like edgy

10:51

figure even as far back as

10:53

2007 when you first met him?

10:55

Yeah, and I think that's part

10:57

of why I mean there are

10:59

all sorts of reasons like why

11:01

he became successful but I think

11:03

like Donald Trump He has a

11:05

knack for Like authenticity and for

11:07

and for being willing to sort

11:10

of say things that seem transgressive

11:12

and then using that to his

11:14

advantage. Just like Trump, I mean

11:16

he rails against the media all

11:18

the time, but he got incredible

11:20

media coverage because during those years,

11:22

like if you were a reporter,

11:24

he would, you know, he talked

11:26

to everybody and he would say

11:28

crazy stuff. He would attack his

11:30

enemies. He would attack his enemies.

11:32

He would, now, now back then

11:34

his enemies weren't like George Soros.

11:36

They were just like, it was

11:38

like BYD. Or no, it was

11:40

like the cars columnist for the

11:42

Wallomist for the Wall Street Journal.

11:44

And so he was always, you

11:46

know, he's always saying provocative stuff

11:48

and I think that, you know,

11:50

contributed to his rise. Okay, but

11:52

help me understand this though. Have

11:54

we missed something in Silicon Valley

11:56

shift? Because it seems like there

11:58

was a time. Silicon Valley was

12:00

the bastion of progressivism and liberalism.

12:02

You know, it was, Elon Musk

12:04

himself, he's got like tweets ways

12:06

out there probably being like, and

12:08

that's why we have LGBTQ protections

12:10

or our workers and we believe

12:12

in this and we, Silicon Valley

12:14

seemed like that place. There was the

12:16

place where people came together and said, we

12:18

want the world to be a better place.

12:21

I remember when Uber was launching and they

12:23

were like, hey, and it was correct. It

12:25

was saying like, yeah. Now if you're a

12:27

black person or a person with disabilities, this

12:30

car will pick you up. You're not going

12:32

to now get driven past it. It felt

12:34

like this utopia crew that was

12:36

trying to make the world a better

12:38

place. And so because of that, they were often

12:41

at odds with the people there in

12:43

bed with now. You know what I

12:45

mean? They were the ones who were

12:47

like, we don't like Nazis. We don't

12:49

want to see swastickers on our websites.

12:51

We're going to ban you. And we

12:53

don't want people separate. Did we miss

12:55

something? Did Silicon Valley shift or was

12:57

this something that was always there that

12:59

is now rearing its head? I don't

13:01

know which way to look at it.

13:03

It's both. So going back to the

13:05

beginning of the industry. Silicon

13:08

Valley people talk about the military industrial

13:10

complex that that phrase like that is

13:12

Silicon Valley That's what Silicon Valley was

13:14

it was a bunch of companies that

13:16

were making technology to help the United

13:18

States when the Cold War and like

13:20

so you you know you rewind the

13:22

clock like way back and this was

13:24

like a conservative place is not a

13:26

place full of progressives it was it

13:28

was a place that it you know

13:30

a lot of ways was kind of

13:32

like you know pro-military and so

13:35

on. And I think that strain

13:37

has always been there. The kind

13:39

of conservative or even kind of

13:41

borderline reactionary strain has always been

13:43

in this part of California, but of

13:45

course there's also the counterculture and

13:48

those two things sort of swirled

13:50

together. There was a moment during

13:52

the like 2000s when like you're

13:55

saying like Silicon Valley seemed very

13:57

closely allied with the Democratic part.

14:00

and in particular Barack Obama, you know,

14:02

I listened to your podcast about

14:04

Elon from September and Trevor, you said,

14:06

I think you're kidding, like Obama

14:08

did this to us. I

14:10

think you're right,

14:13

although not exactly, I would tell a

14:15

different story, which is that Obama,

14:19

I'd say more than any politician,

14:21

maybe more than any cultural figure,

14:23

is the one who gave

14:25

us that story about Elon

14:27

Musk in particular. Oh, so like,

14:30

Obama, you know, this

14:32

vision of kind of a centrist,

14:36

forward -looking

14:39

progressivism that embraces tech in the

14:41

future, he really embraced Elon Musk,

14:43

he embraced clean technology, Tesla nearly

14:45

went bankrupt during the financial crisis,

14:47

Elon Musk got a big loan

14:49

from the Department of Energy, effectively

14:51

was saved from bankruptcy by Elon

14:53

Musk's own admission by Barack

14:55

Obama, by the Obama administration.

14:57

Can we just pause there for

14:59

a second and say, this

15:01

is probably one of the things

15:04

that I find I'm most

15:06

amused and frustrated by, is how

15:08

many times these guys' stories

15:10

are littered with them being helped

15:12

by the government that they are telling

15:14

people they need to dismantle because

15:16

it helps people. Fancy welfare. It's the

15:18

craziest thing ever. Like, literally listen

15:20

to what you me. There's more. I

15:22

mean, SpaceX, his rocket company, I

15:25

mean, basically all of its

15:27

money early on came from the

15:29

government, and SpaceX, like, their big

15:31

breakthrough was signing this contract with

15:33

NASA to provide launch services to

15:35

the International Space Station, also an

15:37

Obama -era thing, you know, when you

15:39

add up the amount of money

15:41

that they've taken from the government

15:44

over the years, it's enormous, but

15:46

it wasn't just that. I mean,

15:48

Obama put Musk kind of at

15:50

the center of like, his idea

15:52

for what the future should look

15:54

like. And I also

15:56

think Silicon Valley, these

15:59

venture. capitalist, these

16:01

guys who are thinking about the future, they

16:03

are really good at picking up the

16:05

vibes. And so like they saw that

16:07

a lot of people were excited about

16:09

Barack Obama, that he was filling up

16:11

stadiums, that young people were excited. Like

16:13

that's their game. And they said, oh,

16:15

you know, let's move there. And I

16:17

think something kind of similar happened this

16:19

summer with Donald Trump, where they sort

16:21

of sensed. that this is where the

16:23

vibe was headed. They also have data

16:25

that we can't dream of, right? Yeah,

16:27

it's true. Although I'm always skeptical of

16:29

how good the data actually is. Really?

16:31

Yeah, I mean, they're definitely people who

16:33

are driven by data, but I think

16:35

these guys make decisions pretty much the

16:37

same way the rest of us do.

16:39

Although, when they like turn back and

16:41

tell the story, they maybe use a

16:43

little more data. Okay, okay, okay, okay. So,

16:46

so yeah, and, and you know. After the election

16:48

after this last election, you know, and we

16:50

had the inauguration and like all these tech

16:52

guys had better seats than like the governor

16:54

of Florida Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a

16:56

lot of the guys who are associated with

16:58

Trump now were associated with Obama Some of

17:00

the some of the same people were at

17:02

the inauguration in you know, 2024 were the

17:04

2008 inauguration see this is so funny because

17:06

look at some of the conversations we've had

17:08

on the podcast like where Josh says as a

17:10

joke, but he says it as a real thing goes like

17:12

Trump is white Obama and he goes

17:14

like not a very controversial yeah a

17:17

very controversial comment but it's like yeah

17:19

but you see like we talk about

17:21

the overlapping voters now you've just

17:24

thrown another piece of the puzzle where

17:26

it's like oh the fact that these

17:28

are the same guys sitting in both

17:30

these administrations could not be further apart

17:33

from each other you tell me any world

17:35

you know better than anyone like think

17:37

about in African countries when they switch

17:39

a regime you will definitely not see

17:41

the same people sitting behind the new

17:43

leader. Because that's a signal that like,

17:46

no, no, no, these are my people

17:48

and these people. But like, the fact

17:50

that they've done that either tells us

17:52

that there's an overlap in the Trump

17:54

and Obamaness that they can resonate

17:57

with, or it tells us that

17:59

they're masterminds. getting into somebody but

18:01

they weren't sitting with Joe Biden.

18:03

They hated Biden and I think

18:05

why and I think to some

18:08

extent the feeling maybe was mutual

18:10

I mean Biden unlike George W.

18:12

Bush Obama and even Donald Trump

18:14

did not embrace Silicon Valley and

18:16

didn't I mean he did because

18:19

he's a politician and they have

18:21

like the most money in the

18:23

world like but you know his

18:25

his politics was the politics of

18:27

organized labor and you know American

18:29

manufacturing and like when he's an

18:32

Amtrak man he's an Amtrak man

18:34

exactly and he actually he sensed

18:36

like correctly to some extent that

18:38

there was a backlash against these

18:40

tech guys and Trump too right

18:43

like Trump was threatening to throw

18:45

Mark Zuckerberg in prison yeah like

18:47

just a few months ago was

18:49

more skeptical of the tech people,

18:51

including Elon Musk. And you know,

18:54

when Biden was promoting EVs, he

18:56

made this very concerted effort to

18:58

promote, you know, GM and Ford,

19:00

the two big American companies, they

19:02

have union labor, and that like

19:05

really offended Elon Musk. So I've

19:07

always wondered, are you familiar with

19:09

the story? Because of it, tell

19:11

it again. I've often wondered if

19:13

this is part of the reason

19:16

we have the Elon Musk we

19:18

have today. Because Biden holds a

19:20

summit at the White House, an

19:22

EV summit, and he invites all

19:24

the big car manufacturers to the

19:27

White House, but he doesn't invite

19:29

Elon Musk. And I don't care

19:31

what you say. Was it a

19:33

deliberate slight? I mean, come on,

19:35

how can it not be? And

19:37

if you look at... I don't

19:40

care what you say about politics,

19:42

right? Let's even... Let's go back

19:44

to that time. I think that

19:46

is a terrible move. Because... Say

19:48

what you want, Elon Musk has

19:51

done more to push EVs than

19:53

any other human being, right?

19:55

in terms of

19:57

like that position

19:59

that he's in. Yeah,

20:02

yeah, but certainly more than like the CEOs GM.

20:04

That's what I mean, the CEO of Ford

20:06

and GM. And so it was strange to me

20:08

that he did that, but I often wonder

20:10

if that was the moment, because I remember seeing

20:13

a shift after that, where Elon went from

20:15

being the guy who's like, I don't get involved

20:17

in politics, and I just think that it's

20:19

good for us to look at both sides, and

20:21

try to find ourselves in a space where

20:23

we're not exactly looking at, like what is that,

20:25

and he was that guy. Biden

20:27

doesn't invite him to the White House, this

20:30

man went full Trump. I

20:32

mean, he went, and you watch

20:34

it in Tansy. So as a casual

20:36

observer, do you think that that

20:38

was a seminal moment in the Musk

20:40

that we get today? I think

20:42

that was kind of the beginning of

20:44

this version of Musk. And of

20:46

course, there are other stories, like again,

20:48

the story that you all talked

20:50

about, about Musk's trans daughter, and Musk's

20:52

own like sort of his purse.

20:55

I think all that also applies, but

20:57

in terms of, if you're looking

20:59

for like a political act, that

21:01

was it. I mean, that was the

21:03

moment. And I do think all

21:05

of those other personal things, also COVID

21:08

restrictions, Musk got really mad about

21:10

the closure orders, it was affecting his

21:12

bottom line, played into it. I

21:15

do understand why Biden did not

21:17

invite him. The thing Biden was trying

21:19

to do was bring the rest

21:21

of the auto industry into EVs. And

21:23

in certain ways, that was what

21:25

Musk was trying to do way back

21:27

in the day. There was a

21:29

version of Elon Musk, 10

21:32

or 15 years ago, who would have

21:34

looked at that and said, oh my God,

21:36

that's great. Like I have achieved my

21:38

goal. It's not just Tesla, it's everybody. Oh,

21:40

so you felt that was like

21:42

an ideological impulse that was maybe

21:44

environmental. He really believed electric

21:46

cars are better for the planet.

21:49

If you had asked me, yeah, like

21:51

10 years ago, I mean, that

21:53

was his ideology to the extent that

21:55

he had an ideology. It was

21:57

bringing electric cars and bringing the industry

21:59

along. with him and you know at times

22:01

he had actually been kind of friendly with

22:04

people at GM because GM of course had

22:06

also done some electric cars actually released an

22:08

electric car in the 90s and then killed

22:10

it. I think Biden was trying to, I

22:13

mean, and this is the account that the Biden

22:15

people. have given an explanation to sort of defend

22:17

themselves from the argument that you're making, which is,

22:19

you know, there are definitely a lot of people

22:21

who agree with you, which is like, listen, this

22:23

was about Detroit and everything. I don't believe that.

22:25

But yeah, I'll be honest with you, I don't

22:28

believe it. I don't believe it. I think I

22:30

think Biden's people were going to put you in

22:32

your place and we're going to show you that this

22:34

industry is going to move on without

22:36

you and so we're going to bring

22:38

all these people in to go like

22:40

we've got this. And then Elon Musk,

22:42

if there's one thing I've seen from

22:44

Elon Musk and what I've heard about,

22:46

yo, let me tell you something. That

22:48

man does not take slight well. Yeah.

22:50

We're going to continue this conversation

22:52

right after this short break.

22:54

Maybe we should talk about that

22:56

a little bit more. Just like, take

22:59

a step out of the Elon of it

23:01

all. I know the world has often

23:03

been populated by, you know,

23:05

you always call them the

23:07

thin-skinned powerful men. Yeah. I don't

23:09

know that we've ever been in a

23:11

time when the men have had this

23:13

much power and their skins have been.

23:16

And this much wealth. Like

23:18

this is an unprecedented amount

23:20

of wealth to accumulate. It

23:22

just wasn't this much money

23:25

to be hoarded by one

23:27

person. Right? Yeah. There's an

23:29

unprecedented wealth and kind of

23:31

an unprecedented cultural impact and

23:34

control. I mean, Musk... I used

23:36

to talk about this with Mark Zuckerberg,

23:38

you know, Facebook, you know, it's the

23:40

biggest media company in history, you know,

23:42

but that always felt a little bit

23:45

hard because clearly Mark Zuckerberg wasn't like

23:47

going through his mentions, like trying to

23:49

suspend people who were mean to him.

23:51

At least not as far as I

23:53

could tell, whereas Musk definitely seems to

23:56

be doing that. Yeah. And so like

23:58

that feels like the combination. of like

24:00

power and control over our cultural

24:02

lives and money like yeah that

24:04

feels new yeah and how much

24:06

do you think this is fueled

24:08

by his catamine use he's kind

24:10

of known that is don't come

24:12

from me musk I'm not rich

24:14

enough to fight that but like

24:17

because people are kind of You

24:19

read all these articles and it's

24:21

always an anonymous source. He's like,

24:23

I've never seen him like this

24:25

before. This is the most angry

24:27

or erratic or, you know, the

24:29

parade when he went to the

24:31

White House and he brings his

24:33

kid. You know, like, he's doing

24:35

things that even don't seem typical

24:37

for somebody who is... been known

24:39

for being pretty eccentric and out

24:41

there. How much do you think

24:43

his rumored ketamine use is kind

24:45

of fueling this behavior? I mean

24:47

he's acknowledged his ketamine use as

24:49

a treatment for I believe depression.

24:51

I think he said he has

24:53

a prescription. I don't have any

24:55

special knowledge about his substance use.

24:57

I've actually never taken ketamine. So

25:00

it's sort of hard for me

25:02

to know exactly like is that

25:04

you know, but I do think

25:06

that he is behaving erratically and

25:08

I and for him no but

25:10

you get what I'm saying yeah

25:12

I get what you're saying he's

25:14

behaving radically for him that's a

25:16

question that's a question because he

25:18

is he's different and so it's

25:20

it is a little bit hard

25:22

to to like parse like yeah

25:24

how much of this is Elon

25:26

in a dark place and how

25:28

much is this Elon you know

25:30

how much of this is whatever

25:32

substance Elon taking and how much

25:34

of it is just like he's

25:36

a he's an unusual guy and

25:38

I'm not sure that anybody knows

25:40

the exact answer to that question.

25:43

Even Elon Musk, I have to

25:45

say though, you know, the Walter

25:47

Isaacson book that came out, what

25:49

was it, like two years ago,

25:51

there's a lot in there about

25:53

his mental well-being and admissions from

25:55

himself and from his own, from

25:57

people. very close to him who

25:59

have been concerned at various points.

26:01

So like I don't think it's

26:03

totally wrong to like to ask

26:05

because Musk talks about himself all

26:07

the time. I mean he's somebody

26:09

who who is constantly talking about

26:11

struggles with demons and darkness. Yeah

26:13

he is. To me that makes

26:15

him actually kind of relatable. I

26:17

mean that's like a lot of

26:19

us you know everybody struggles and

26:21

to some extent with demons and

26:23

darkness or whatever it's just unusual

26:26

that he wears it. So on

26:28

his sleeve even more so for

26:30

me than like the the rumor

26:32

drug use or whatever or the

26:34

actual drug use like he did

26:36

one smoke pot on a Joe

26:38

Rogan broadcast or whatever is just

26:40

the the hours he's keeping right

26:42

like he seems to be tweeting

26:44

24 7 like so it's like

26:46

this man has 14 kids yes

26:48

looking after the kids not him

26:50

no not him you know what

26:52

it does bring up for me

26:54

though we talk about unprecedented wealth

26:57

There's this idea that I've been

26:59

playing around within my head and

27:01

I... Because I'm not a clinical

27:03

psychologist, I'll never say what a

27:06

person is or isn't. But I

27:08

find it particularly interesting that Trump,

27:10

Kanye, and Elon all have very

27:12

similar trends if you watch like

27:14

how they are. So they have

27:16

moments where people go, oh no,

27:18

they're lovely. And in person, they're

27:20

charming and they're this and they're

27:22

this and then that. And then

27:24

they'll have like these like sort

27:26

of outbursts and all of them

27:28

have three a.m. tweet rants all

27:30

of them Yeah, all of them

27:32

and people like what is happening

27:34

right now almost manic. Yeah, have

27:36

you seen what kangay is saying?

27:38

Have you seen and then kanio

27:40

come and be like I'm sorry

27:42

and I'm da da da da

27:44

da We also have very seldom

27:46

been in a society where that

27:48

goes like unchecked. Do you give

27:50

them saying so let's talk about

27:52

manic, right? like my grandfathers was

27:55

bipolar Everything like that Kanye

27:57

does, my grandfather did. But my

27:59

grandfather didn't... have billions of dollars.

28:01

And I don't know what he would have done

28:03

had he had billions of dollars because broke

28:05

was the barrier that caught him every

28:07

time and then the family would be

28:10

like I come fetch your grandfather he's

28:12

at the supermarket lecturing people about blah

28:14

blah I got to go to supermarket

28:16

pick up granddad and then tomorrow he's

28:18

a sweet little peaceful. But he didn't you

28:20

know what I mean? There's a barrier

28:22

that most people in society will experience

28:25

when they have whatever it is. These men

28:27

don't have that. going, being erratic, when

28:29

the Kani is being erratic, we don't

28:31

know what erratic plus billion equals, and

28:34

I think we might be experiencing it.

28:36

Do you know what I mean? Also,

28:38

I mean, there is this like ideological

28:40

thing that we haven't talked about, which

28:43

is that these guys, and you brought

28:45

it up with Uber, but like, they have been

28:47

in various ways and Tiel played a

28:49

big part of this, but Elon has

28:51

too, have made this argument that sort

28:54

of breaking the rules, transgressing. It's not

28:56

just... it's not just acceptable it's like

28:58

a good thing it's like it's like

29:00

a thing we need more of that's

29:02

there that to some extent is their

29:05

ideology and like and so uber was

29:07

like breaking the taxi industry or breaking

29:09

the rules and it wasn't just it

29:11

wasn't just okay i think a lot of

29:14

people prior to this would agree

29:16

that like it's okay of a

29:18

small business doesn't like fill out

29:20

every single form or whatever because

29:22

they're small business but but these

29:24

guys took it further to say

29:26

no like disruption breaking things, sticking

29:28

in the eye of the establishment,

29:30

like that's how progress happens. Like

29:32

that is, to the extent that

29:34

any of these guys have really

29:36

strongly held beliefs, that is the

29:38

belief that kind of ties them

29:40

all together. Let's talk more about

29:42

Peter Thiel. Who is this shadowy figure?

29:44

I find him very scary. When I

29:46

was like, like, prepping for today, I

29:49

was like, this guy shut down gorka.

29:51

He's a scary kind of person.

29:53

But that's like who is Peter

29:55

Thiel and why do some people

29:58

consider him the alt- puppet

30:00

master for everything that's happening and not

30:02

by the way I'm not saying like

30:04

conspiracy land I'm not saying like who

30:07

is this mystery no I mean more

30:09

more in the way of like someone

30:11

going oh yeah this is how he

30:13

helped Trump and this is what he's

30:15

meant to Elon etc. Well so he

30:17

is just to start he is a

30:20

famous investor he is he was the

30:22

he started co-founded payf pal became kind

30:24

of like the big tech investor in

30:26

the 2000s and 2010s. Many of

30:29

these, many of his friends and

30:31

colleagues like Elon Musk, but

30:33

also Reed Hoffman, co-founder of LinkedIn,

30:35

the guys who started YouTube, they

30:38

all worked together at PayPal, they

30:40

all kind of went out in

30:42

the world and did business together.

30:45

And Thiel, in addition to all

30:47

of this, was a very conservative

30:49

person, somebody who had been essentially

30:51

one of these. like college conservatives

30:54

really like before it became so

30:56

cool. Oh, okay. So he that

30:58

and that was really like his

31:00

first his first like entrepreneurial venture

31:03

was this kind of right wing

31:05

newspaper at Stanford called the Stanford

31:07

Review and you know they would

31:09

like rail against it's basically wokeness

31:12

but they you know back then

31:14

they called it like political correctness.

31:16

Yeah, you see culture. And you know they would

31:18

sort of like do something that is

31:21

like right on the line of

31:23

being racist or sexist or homophobic

31:25

or maybe all three all at

31:27

once and then use that to

31:29

yeah to their advantage and um

31:32

and he'll kind of combine those

31:34

two things combine the combined his

31:36

you know conservative worldview with his

31:38

his business thing and he's he's

31:41

sort of bounced between the two

31:43

and tried to use his political

31:45

influence to benefit his companies, beginning

31:47

with Palantir. And this is where

31:49

some of these like puppet master

31:52

theories start, because Palantir, which is

31:54

a, it's like a data-based company

31:56

that does data mining for intelligence

31:58

agencies and corporations, and... started the

32:01

company in 2004 and it sort

32:03

of grew in tandem with his

32:05

political influence where they were able

32:07

to get government contracts and so

32:10

on as he grew and of

32:12

course Palantir scares people because databases

32:14

and data mining you know it

32:16

there are ways in which you

32:19

can kind of like surveil somebody

32:21

without actually surveilling them and like

32:23

I said he became really the

32:25

first tech guy to go all

32:27

in on Trump. And as you,

32:30

what did he like about Trump?

32:32

I'd love to know what he

32:34

connected to that, you know, because

32:37

Trump seemed, people forget this

32:39

now, but I remember when

32:41

Donald Trump was running for

32:44

president, he had no ally,

32:46

right? So Trump was the antithesis

32:48

of the Republican Party as they

32:51

saw themselves. You know, I remember,

32:53

you know, whether it was. the

32:55

people running the RNC or whether

32:57

it was people who were running

33:00

against him they were like oh

33:02

no no this guy is a

33:04

pariah he's a joke he does

33:06

not represent our values so the

33:09

establishment Republican Party was not for

33:11

Donald Trump the media was not

33:13

for Donald Trump right Fox News was

33:15

like man who's this guy in that

33:18

way the Democrats were not

33:20

for Donald Trump Silicon Valley wasn't

33:22

so I'd love to know like

33:24

what did Peter TLC in Donald

33:26

Trump where he's like no no no this

33:28

is my guy. Yeah I mean that was the

33:30

mystery that I started with like when

33:33

I got started writing about him

33:35

seriously and wrote the book was

33:37

just like how does this you know

33:39

he's like a gay immigrant tech guy

33:41

yes get behind you know he's born

33:43

in Germany I spent some of his

33:45

childhood in in modern day Namibia I

33:47

think a short time in South Africa

33:50

as well how does this guy you

33:52

know embrace this like avowed luddite member

33:54

Donald Trump like proudly didn't use email

33:56

you know and it's talking about this

33:58

vision of the country that has nothing

34:00

to do with Silicon Valley. Yes.

34:02

And I think about the miners.

34:04

Yeah, more coal miners. Yeah, we're

34:06

bringing back coal, baby. Yeah. And

34:08

I think the answer was, well,

34:10

there's like two things. One of

34:12

which is this political correctness point.

34:14

Like, Teale really does believe left

34:17

wing ideas and tolerance and diversity

34:19

were like holding back America. That

34:21

was like a significant problem with

34:23

our country and that all we

34:25

needed to do was be able

34:27

to say, you know. Stuff that's

34:29

like maybe borderline racist and get

34:31

away with it. And like that

34:33

would make things better because then

34:35

we wouldn't have to hold back

34:37

or something. And I think the

34:39

fact that Trump was doing that

34:41

and getting up there and saying

34:43

stuff that was edgy was a

34:45

big, like that was a big

34:47

part of the appeal. And the

34:49

other thing is these guys want

34:51

to destroy the old order and

34:53

build their new order and build

34:55

a technological, you know, techno future.

34:57

And Trump, maybe he wasn't super

34:59

focused. on the future, but he

35:01

was saying we need to break

35:03

a bunch of stuff. Yeah, yeah,

35:05

yeah. Which is very tech. Move

35:08

fast and break things, right? Isn't

35:10

that like kind of the ethos?

35:12

Yeah, that is, that, that slogan

35:14

is, you know, super associated with

35:16

Facebook. Mark Suckberg has used it.

35:18

And of course, Mark Zuckerberg was

35:20

basically a mentee of Peter Teel.

35:22

Heel's first big investment was an

35:24

early bet on Facebook. For like

35:26

one of the best venture capital

35:28

investments of all time. And so,

35:30

and then I think the last

35:32

thing is just these guys are

35:34

opportunists and Teal saw, it's not

35:36

that Teal thought, oh for sure

35:38

Trump is going to win. He

35:40

thought he might win and if

35:42

he does win, and I do

35:44

kind of like it. Yeah, exactly.

35:46

It's an investment. It's an early

35:48

investment. It's a high risk, high

35:50

reward investment, which is exactly the

35:52

kind of thing that these tech

35:54

guys specialize in. But with Musk,

35:56

I think was the same thing.

35:59

I don't knew for sure that

36:01

that that that. that Trump was

36:03

going to win but i think

36:05

he thought look i've already i've

36:07

already gone sort of i've already

36:09

been red-pilled or whatever i'm already

36:11

tweeting right-wing stuff every day, what

36:13

am I really going to harm

36:15

my brand by putting a couple

36:17

hundred million dollars behind Trump? Probably

36:19

not. If he loses, what have

36:21

I lost? And if he wins,

36:23

then I become the, you know,

36:25

the right-hand man of the most

36:27

powerful person in the world. And

36:29

now it's time for today's self-care

36:31

toolkit segment brought to you by

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Medical, thanks to Amazon, healthcare just

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36:43

thing I always think about when

36:45

we talk about self-care. Home remedies.

36:47

I don't know what it was

36:50

like in your house, but in

36:52

mine, if you had a sore

36:54

throat, you weren't getting medicine right

36:56

away. You were getting a concoction.

36:58

and a prayer. Most of the

37:00

time it was warm water, maybe

37:02

with some salt, lemon, honey, ginger,

37:04

and if you were brave, garlic.

37:06

Yes, there was always the garlic.

37:08

How sick are you bring out

37:10

the garlic? Because apparently, I guess,

37:12

sicknesses and vampires have the same

37:14

weaknesses. At that time I hated

37:16

it. I was like, please just

37:18

give me something from the pharmacy.

37:20

Please but now I don't know

37:22

I don't know what changed now

37:24

I swear by it first sign

37:26

of a cold and I'm suddenly

37:28

becoming like a backyard herbalist You

37:30

know it's funny how these things

37:32

stick with you and what's wild

37:34

is how different they are like

37:36

depending on where you grew up

37:38

they completely change my friend from

37:41

India told me that he used

37:43

turmeric in warm milk as a

37:45

remedy when he was growing up

37:47

which honestly Sounds like a latte

37:49

now, but back then, it was

37:51

medicine. I've heard of people using

37:53

onions and socks or steam tents

37:55

with eucalyptus. People really do get

37:57

creative. And the thing is, it's

37:59

not an either-all. You can absolutely

38:01

believe in modern medicine and still

38:03

make your mom's mystery tea. It's all

38:05

part of taking care of yourself, knowing

38:08

what makes you feel better, even if

38:10

it's just because it reminds you of

38:12

home. Well, we hope you gave you

38:14

some ideas for your self-care routine.

38:16

Today's self-care toolkit segment was

38:19

brought to you by Amazon.

38:21

Thanks to Amazon, healthcare just

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got less painful. You

38:28

know we see this played out in a

38:31

different way in developing nations

38:33

I find so because it's

38:35

a lot more blatant and There

38:37

isn't like a finesse around it. I mean

38:39

now it's become blatant in America, I would

38:42

say. But like for instance, I grew up

38:44

in a world where, you know what I'm

38:46

talking about, there would be this businessman who's

38:48

about to go to jail or their business

38:51

is about to, there always be something that's

38:53

happening. They're losing the mining license or something's

38:55

happening and they go, okay, I need to

38:57

go all in on this candidate. Otherwise my

39:00

whole world is gonna come crumbling down. and

39:02

then they would back them completely and if

39:04

the candidate won they got more mining deals

39:07

they got more oil deals they got more

39:09

everything but if they lost that

39:11

was it for you you read about

39:13

it in like old Cold War Russia

39:15

as well it was like okay who's supporting

39:17

Yeltsin or who's going after Gorbachev

39:19

it feels like that wasn't America

39:21

was the place where people like

39:24

yes there's you know there's shaking

39:26

hands between companies and businesses and

39:28

government, but that's not what this

39:30

country does. And now it seems

39:32

like... It's very naked, right? Yeah,

39:34

now it seems very directly. But

39:37

this is, okay, this is what

39:39

confuses me on, you know, we

39:41

talk about Peter Thiel and one

39:43

aspect. Elon Musk makes electric

39:45

cars. Donald Trump keeps

39:48

on smashing electric cars and

39:50

going like, people don't want

39:52

these things, they're terrible, bring

39:54

oil back, baby. Okay, what am I missing

39:57

there? Strange bedfellows. Yeah, but I want, like,

39:59

am I missing? Does Elon Musk think,

40:01

the only thing I've thought of is,

40:03

Elon Musk goes, if the electric car

40:05

industry is destroyed, the legacy brands will

40:08

die first in it, and they'll be

40:10

the first to bail out because they'll

40:12

panic. So Ford and all of them

40:14

will be like, okay, we're not making

40:17

electric cars, and then Tesla will once

40:19

again be like the only player. And

40:21

so I think he's betting that he

40:24

can weather the store more than they

40:26

can, and then he will have himopoly

40:28

in the space. And so I think

40:30

for now he supports Donald Trump trying

40:33

to like crush the industry, but I

40:35

don't know what you think because you're

40:37

in it so deeply. I think that

40:39

the story you just told is more

40:42

or less the right story. Like Tesla

40:44

has the market lead. So if Tesla

40:46

has the best margins, if Donald Trump

40:49

nixed every subsidy for electric vehicles, it'd

40:51

be very bad for Tesla, but it'd

40:53

be worse. for Tesla's competitors. It's kind

40:55

of like what you're saying. I do

40:58

think like what you were just describing

41:00

is like an oligarchy, right? Like the

41:02

these business people who are using, who

41:04

are very powerful, using their business connections

41:07

to to to influence politics and using

41:09

that to influence their bottom line. I

41:11

feel like that is what Elon Musk

41:14

right now is trying to do. And

41:16

people have described Musk and Teel and

41:18

Basos as oligarchs. and i think there's

41:20

there's something to that because the playbooks

41:23

do feel very similar i don't think

41:25

we yet know like we don't know

41:27

how this story ends and america like

41:30

we may have some oligarchs or some

41:32

would be oligarchs we still have in

41:34

a democracy and there is there's still

41:36

the possibility that this won't work that

41:39

that must will not be able to

41:41

that that yes he he he is

41:43

buying influence when he donates 300 million

41:45

dollars to Donald Trump? But like how

41:48

much influence is he actually buying? Can

41:50

Donald Trump really just write him a

41:52

check for like 10 billion dollars? And

41:55

I think the answer... I think we're

41:57

going to learn, and maybe we already

41:59

are starting to learn, that like the

42:01

answer may be no, that Trump is

42:04

not able, because of Congress and because

42:06

of all of these, you know, because

42:08

of the countervailing forces, because the fact

42:10

that many people in the United States,

42:13

including, you know, Donald Trump voters, do

42:15

not want to live in that world.

42:17

And so I think, so I just

42:20

don't think we know yet what the

42:22

payoff is. So then maybe I guess

42:24

for someone like Thiel it works out

42:26

because he seems like he's more on

42:29

the ideological side of it but Musk

42:31

seems to be more blow with the

42:33

wind but really it's all about the

42:35

money just bottom line bottom line bottom

42:38

line I think they're both they're both

42:40

about the money and but but Thiel

42:42

is more ideological okay more of an

42:45

ideology and maybe you can explain the

42:47

psychology of these guys how much more

42:49

money do they want they have so

42:51

much like because that doesn't feel like

42:54

a satisfying explanation when we're talking about

42:56

the richest man in the world and

42:58

we're talking about somebody that made a

43:01

venture capital investment that is unprecedented will

43:03

never happen again what this is the

43:05

Facebook IPO it's a great point and

43:07

it's it's actually what some of them

43:10

have said in in sort of saying

43:12

like how could this be corrupt I

43:14

don't need more money why would I

43:16

as a we see David Sachs who's

43:19

a you know close friend Atel and

43:21

Musk say this like why would a

43:23

rich person be corrupt. They don't need

43:26

to be corrupt. Brilliant. And I love

43:28

that. It's despicable. It's despicable. But it's

43:30

like brilliant. Wow. So yeah, maybe point

43:32

taken. Yeah. On the other hand, like

43:35

Elon Musk is worth, I didn't, I

43:37

didn't check before I walked in. I'm

43:39

guessing it's around $300 million. That's not

43:41

like $300 billion, that's not a giant

43:44

stack of dollar bills. That's $300 billion

43:46

dollars largely in illiquid assets. Tesla stock

43:48

stock in these private companies primarily SpaceX

43:51

These companies all do business with one

43:53

another so if one were to fall

43:55

very quickly then all then all the

43:57

others might might fall So it's not

44:00

like, like he is very rich, but

44:02

it's not like his wealth is totally

44:04

stable. And he's saying he's low-key broke,

44:06

is that what he thinks? He's definitely

44:09

not. He's definitely not sitting on a

44:11

ton of cash. He's not he's not

44:13

public basketball rich But I mean he

44:16

this is this is not to say

44:18

he's broke He can borrow money and

44:20

this is like what he did when

44:22

he bought Twitter. He basically can take

44:25

some of this some of these stock

44:27

certificates Give him to a bank the

44:29

biggest scam in the world and get money

44:31

out of it because he's not a

44:34

good investment He is he just

44:36

is not sitting on a pile

44:38

cash and so if these if

44:40

some of these stocks were to

44:42

fall dramatically he's still have enough

44:44

money to have a plane and

44:46

probably and and go after his

44:49

enemies or whatever but he just

44:51

he would not be mega rich

44:53

the way it is now and

44:55

I and so I do think

44:57

like they don't feel as secure

44:59

as as we might think we would

45:01

feel if we were in there their

45:03

shoes I'll say one thing to that

45:06

I've met a bunch of And I

45:08

think we should never take for

45:10

granted how much their drive is

45:12

governed by just being invited

45:15

back to the club. You know, it's

45:17

whoever has the biggest yacht gets the

45:19

biggest parking spot where

45:21

you get to dock your boat.

45:23

There's something that comes with it

45:26

that goes beyond like the money.

45:28

And sometimes we think of the

45:30

money because for most people

45:32

money is the thing that's governing

45:35

your life. But once it gets...

45:37

beyond that, the money is just

45:39

a number that determines where

45:42

you are positioned now in life.

45:44

So when you have half a

45:46

billion dollars, okay, I'm sure

45:48

there's like a lot of

45:50

presidents who will take your call,

45:52

when you have 300 billion dollars,

45:55

they're praying that you take

45:57

their call. Yeah, money is now

45:59

power. It's now having the ability

46:01

to what Max was saying to shape

46:04

the world now. Think about how many

46:06

times weird people go, man, I wish

46:08

they would. No, no, no. These people

46:10

don't wish they would. They just do

46:12

it. They do they would. So they

46:14

do they would. So they phone the

46:16

Department of Education, you know what I

46:18

mean? The Secretary of Education, and go,

46:20

hey, this needs to change in schools.

46:23

And that person goes, I'll look into

46:25

it. Elon in particular. And I know

46:27

it's like a loaded sentence, but I

46:29

keep feeling it like my spidey sense.

46:31

Maybe I spend too much time in

46:33

Africa. I don't know. It feels like

46:35

a lot of Elon Musk is a

46:37

scam. And I know that that is

46:39

a counterintuitive statement because people will go,

46:41

what are you talking about Trevor? Man,

46:44

he's a research man in the world.

46:46

He's a company. Every single time he's

46:48

had a new event. He's had a

46:50

new event. He's a new event. He's

46:52

had a new event. there is still

46:54

no full self-driving. And now people are

46:56

like, but have you seen how they

46:58

drive? That's not what I'm saying. A

47:00

lot of the stock price is tied

47:03

to what he says will be done

47:05

or is achievable. A lot of the

47:07

valuation is tied to that, but it

47:09

doesn't get done. And that's why I

47:11

noticed an overlap between him and Donald

47:13

Trump. Donald Trump, I think it was

47:15

Jeff Zucker, who asked him once, they

47:17

said, yo. Why do you keep giving

47:19

Donald Trump the apprentice? And they're like,

47:22

this hack failed businessman who's like this

47:24

goofy dude who's not even a billionaire,

47:26

acts like a billionaire. Why do you

47:28

keep? And Jeff Sucker said, can I

47:30

tell you something? He said, this man

47:32

is a one man, one man ratings,

47:34

ricking ball machine. And he said, because

47:36

he will go to press events. And

47:38

the press will say, how do you

47:41

feel about the ratings being down for

47:43

this season on the apprentice? and Trump

47:45

will turn and say this is the

47:47

biggest rated show of all time and

47:49

the journalists would go no it isn't

47:51

it's lost ratings and he's like no

47:53

No, you're wrong. This is the biggest

47:55

show. It is watched by more people

47:57

than ever before. The Apprentice is the

47:59

biggest show. And Jeff Zaka says he'd

48:02

never seen a human being who could

48:04

take reality and just butt up against

48:06

it and force. And then he would

48:08

create the reality that he now said

48:10

existed. And I feel like Musk and

48:12

Trump do a similar thing. So Musk

48:14

goes. It will work, it will work,

48:16

it will work, it doesn't work, it

48:18

doesn't work, it doesn't work, and then

48:21

a version of it does work, and

48:23

then people like, aha, and then thank

48:25

you, 50 billion. You know, and I

48:27

know it's like a loaded question, I'm

48:29

obviously asking it in a blunt way.

48:31

Yeah, I mean, is he legit? You're

48:33

saying, Trevor, you're saying the tech emperor

48:35

has no clothes. Yeah, I'm saying, is

48:37

he legit. was I think what like

48:40

a tech Silicon Valley people would describe

48:42

as like a reality distortion field and

48:44

they all I love that that's the

48:46

phrase right and it was used memorably

48:48

around Steve Jobs people use it to

48:50

describe Elon Musk the the tendency for

48:52

these tech guys to you know kind

48:54

of like bend reality to their will

48:56

or to say something and like then

48:58

the fact of saying it somehow makes

49:01

it real Now I'm not saying that

49:03

the self-driving cars obviously are not real,

49:05

and he's been promising that as you

49:07

said for a very long time And

49:09

he's and I'm not saying they'll never

49:11

be real by the way, but they're

49:13

not real now I'm just saying a

49:15

lot of like the success is based

49:17

on what people think is going to

49:20

happen when it is going to happen,

49:22

but it's not happening But now the

49:24

very thing that they got into the

49:26

position for they're failing at but then

49:28

somehow They spin it to not be

49:30

failure. Do you know what I mean

49:32

I mean I mean I think I

49:34

think I think that maybe that's something

49:36

that's an insight that like Trump and

49:39

Elon have about the world that it

49:41

works now or something on it the

49:43

way I've thought about it is more

49:45

like as a like a bullshit artist

49:47

a bullshit artist isn't necessarily scamming they're

49:49

just oh okay they're just you know

49:51

they're just spinning a story or whatever

49:53

Elon Musk is I mean he is

49:55

an amazing marketer he's taken a very

49:58

difficult electric vehicles. There were no electric

50:00

cars really at the time he started

50:02

doing it. There he didn't own any

50:04

car He didn't have any cars to

50:06

sell people He managed to convince people

50:08

to give him money. This is what

50:10

I mean though. You see what I

50:12

mean? Yeah, yeah, I mean like the

50:14

business model for Tesla was okay. We're

50:16

gonna make this very expensive car You're

50:19

gonna make us the money for it

50:21

then we will go make it and

50:23

we will use the extra money left

50:25

over to make another car. We sell

50:27

that ahead of that ahead of time

50:29

he sells products that don't

50:31

exist for his entire career,

50:34

and then hopefully most of

50:36

the time eventually delivering them.

50:38

And as long as people

50:41

believe that it's coming, that there

50:43

is gonna be this next thing,

50:45

it kind of works. And I do

50:47

feel like we're in this moment where

50:50

we're gonna learn basically

50:52

like how far that goes. I think

50:54

in another life. Elon

50:56

Musk has the ending that Elizabeth Holmes

50:58

had with the ranos. I was going to

51:01

get out my head, I was thinking this is

51:03

what they threw Elizabeth Holmes in jail for.

51:05

It's the same thing. Elon gets money

51:07

to make a car that hasn't been

51:09

made and basically says the thing is

51:11

what it isn't. Cool. Elon is the

51:13

same guy who then like convinces one

51:15

car manufacturer that he has gotten funding that

51:17

he doesn't have and then convinces

51:19

the bank that the car manufacturer

51:21

is in when they're not in. and

51:23

then gets the deal done, but both sides came

51:26

to the deal because they both had information

51:28

that wasn't in fact true. And Elizabeth Holmes

51:30

is in jail. And I'm not saying she

51:32

shouldn't be in jail, but I'm just like,

51:34

oh damn, with a bullshit artist, you just

51:36

need one person to go to Bernie Madoff

51:39

you to go, I need my money Bernie,

51:41

and then all of a sudden the whole thing

51:43

falls apart. But if no one asks you

51:45

for the money, Bernie Madoff could still be

51:47

around, as one of the most successful. Money

51:50

guys because no one would ask him to

51:52

for the actual money. Yeah. There's a fine

51:54

line between like fake it till you make

51:56

it and faking it You know when you

51:58

look at him and and you look at

52:01

all the ways he's failed to like

52:03

live up to these promises there are

52:05

ways that he has succeeded yes yeah

52:07

and like those car like and again

52:09

if it's it what's so weird and

52:11

and kind of maddening if you've followed

52:13

him for a very long time is

52:15

He has succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

52:18

Like, he wanted to have a mainstream

52:20

electric car. He wanted to make electric

52:22

cars, have them everywhere, and now, and

52:24

he has it. And like, like, if

52:26

you get an Uber now, like, it's

52:28

probably gonna be a Tesla. Or many

52:30

of them are- Tesla Model 3, right?

52:32

It's like, it's like a Corolla or

52:34

something, but it's not enough, right? Maybe

52:37

the thing that that allowed him. to

52:39

get to where he is now, it's

52:41

like he can't stop it or something

52:43

and he just has to keep it.

52:45

Oh, damn. Now we're, you know, now

52:47

we're doing the cyber cab or something

52:49

and at some point, you have to

52:51

think he's going to, you know, write

52:53

a check with his mouth that he

52:55

can't cash. And that is sort of

52:58

like what every person who's skeptical of

53:00

him, every critic has been waiting for.

53:02

I mean, that's where people have lost

53:04

a lot of money bidding a lot

53:06

of money bidding. You know me. I

53:08

love electric cars. Love love love love

53:10

love electric cars. So for me, I've

53:12

always been the guy who's gone Yes,

53:14

go Elon do the thing because I

53:17

love that I love that concept. I

53:19

love the idea of Starlink. I think

53:21

too many parts of the world don't

53:23

have internet and this archaic idea of

53:25

like a cable coming to your house

53:27

and now you don't have it and

53:29

then infrastructure last mile. It's too it's

53:31

too intensive It's a fantastic idea. Yeah,

53:33

it has downsides with satellites I get

53:36

there, but there's, you know what I

53:38

mean, it's a fantastic idea. There's so

53:40

many elements of Elon where I go

53:42

great, but I think what, what, you

53:44

know, rubs me the wrong way is

53:46

like the conmanny side of it. I'll

53:48

tell you like the biggest one that

53:50

got me with Elon was him lying

53:52

about the video games. I'll tell you

53:55

why. I play a shit ton of

53:57

video games, right? And video games have

53:59

always been, for me at least, the

54:01

bastion... of like where you are because

54:03

nothing else like worked for you. We

54:05

weren't good at video games because we

54:07

were good at catching a ball. We

54:09

weren't good at video games because we

54:11

were the fastest. We weren't good at

54:13

video games because we were the fastest.

54:16

We weren't good at video games because

54:18

we were the best looking. We weren't

54:20

good. No, but that was the place.

54:22

It's like my major was at this

54:24

level because I wasn't at that level

54:26

in real life. I get it when

54:28

you're doing stock market things. All right,

54:30

yeah, I may not like it, but

54:32

you know what? I'm sure a lot

54:35

of other people do it in different

54:37

ways. But when this man came in

54:39

and stole the valor of video gaming

54:41

and proclaimed himself one of the top

54:43

10 players in the world and talked

54:45

about how he does it. Yo, I

54:47

remember watching and then I felt like

54:49

a hater because I watched it and

54:51

I said to my friend, that's impossible.

54:54

I've always like that's impossible. Unemployed and

54:56

employed. That should be the mode you

54:58

play the game in. Because if you

55:00

are unemployed, you play the game at

55:02

a different level, when you're employed, you

55:04

can't get the levels that some of

55:06

these people get, right? For me, that

55:08

was the biggest red flag, and I

55:10

don't know how to explain it. Not

55:13

all the kids. Let me tell you

55:15

something. I hear that stuff. And I

55:17

understand why. And he's a red flag

55:19

for the world for me. For me.

55:21

Elon Musk. Lying about the video games

55:23

and then acting like he didn't lie

55:25

about the video games when he finally

55:27

got busted now being like because when

55:29

he said with Joe Rogan He proudly

55:32

professed how and he used it to

55:34

to prop up his aptitude by the

55:36

way I think this is what part

55:38

of the problem I have he said

55:40

across from Joe Rogan And Joe Rogan

55:42

was like, you play a lot of

55:44

vegan, you're one of the top in

55:46

the world. And he's like, yeah, you

55:48

know, they've actually shown, studies have shown

55:50

that doctors who use, like, who play

55:53

video games, actually better, they've got more

55:55

dexterity and they're better at using. And

55:57

so yeah, I find it helps me

55:59

like solve problems and I can see

56:01

someone going like, wow, he's also one

56:03

of the best video games, which means

56:05

his brain, which means his brain, he

56:07

gets. busted one of the top game

56:09

of streamers or whatever talks to him.

56:12

He goes like, yeah, yeah, of course

56:14

I get someone in China or whatever

56:16

to play for me. That's what everyone

56:18

does. But it shows that it's never

56:20

enough for him. But that's what I

56:22

mean. But I'm saying I can understand

56:24

somebody who steals my car. I can

56:26

understand somebody who steals my phone. But

56:28

then there's like somebody who's going to

56:31

steal the box that my phone came

56:33

in, even though the two were separate.

56:35

And I'm like. There's a thief and

56:37

then there's a kleptomaniac. You get what

56:39

I'm saying? Yeah. For me, that's that's

56:41

the red flag with Elon Musk. If

56:43

you can lie about that, and you've

56:45

lied about the big things as well,

56:47

what are the other things that we

56:50

don't know? I think you might be

56:52

honest something, honestly. We're seeing this. And

56:54

I feel like this is something that

56:56

the media was like a little bit

56:58

slow to pick up on. You know,

57:00

Musk has been saying all the myths,

57:02

there are these protests going on in

57:04

front of Tesla dealerships and so on.

57:06

And Musk is saying, oh, it's Act

57:08

Blue, it's George Soros. We don't totally

57:11

know what's driving it. And I do

57:13

think that the video game thing, both

57:15

like you're saying is this kind of

57:17

like naked deception. Yes. And one that...

57:19

was maybe particularly offensive to his, you

57:21

know, universe of fans. Yeah, to the

57:23

young man who like, and I think

57:25

like Musk is becoming this symbol partly

57:27

because of Trump and maybe partly for

57:30

other reasons having to do with his

57:32

extreme wealth and so on, and the

57:34

fact that he did this, you know,

57:36

thing that looked like a Nazi salute

57:38

to many people, like he's become a

57:40

symbol. of something very bad for a

57:42

lot of people and I do kind

57:44

of wonder maybe like maybe the video

57:46

game thing was the was the turning

57:49

point of it you're not the first

57:51

person who said like well that's gonna

57:53

be the thing that cooks him don't

57:55

go anyway because we got more what

57:57

now after this I'm

58:05

really curious because we have a

58:07

South African here. We haven't

58:09

spoken much about his South

58:11

African heritage. Even there

58:13

by the way because Peter Thiel

58:15

I'm yeah all of them have

58:17

a South African connection Namibia like

58:19

all these guys have some southern

58:21

African connection and it's particularly

58:24

apartheid South Africa and white

58:26

South Africans and Trump's mission

58:28

to help the very desolate

58:30

struggling white South Africans who

58:32

need to be taken to America because

58:34

of all the prejudice facing in South

58:36

Africa right now. What do you think about

58:39

spending his formative years. That was a

58:41

joke by the way for anyone. Some people

58:43

will be like, oh, because Jiana believes it.

58:45

Yeah, they're having a bad time. I've heard

58:47

it's really bad for them. It's actually funny.

58:50

I was, yeah, I was at a golf

58:52

club talking to them about it. And I

58:54

was like, hey, how are things? They're like,

58:56

yeah, it's really tough. Really, really tough. All

58:58

of those guys. But what do you make

59:01

of, because his father has kind of

59:03

become like a, there's all of these

59:05

characters, you've got grimes, you've got his

59:07

eccentric mother, you've got like the woman

59:10

that worked with him, that has three

59:12

children for him now, like it's not

59:14

just musk for me, because maybe I'm

59:16

into celebrity gossip, it's all the like

59:18

the parade of characters that come with

59:21

him. And I think South Africa is

59:23

the backdrop to a lot of that.

59:25

What do you make of like spending

59:27

his time there? I don't feel like

59:30

an expert in the politics of like

59:32

the modern day Africaner movement like and

59:34

I don't I'm not sure that Elon

59:36

even is like I kind of think

59:38

some of what's going on is he's

59:40

just like drinking in the far right

59:42

you know social media stream and like

59:45

there's some far right people talking

59:47

about you know white racism or

59:49

in South Africa but what you're

59:51

saying though I mean there has to be some

59:53

part of the South Africanness that is

59:55

informing and I thought about this

59:57

a lot with Teal.

1:00:00

He was born in Germany, family moved

1:00:02

to the United States, and then he

1:00:04

spent a couple years, as I said,

1:00:06

first in South Africa, and then

1:00:08

in modern day Namibia. His father worked

1:00:11

at a uranium mine. If you're working

1:00:13

at a uranium mine in Namibia, which

1:00:15

at the time was like basically a

1:00:18

colony of South Africa and apartheid state,

1:00:20

you are... like as complicit in

1:00:22

the apartheid system as you could possibly

1:00:24

be. You are making, you are producing,

1:00:27

you're not only like dealing with a

1:00:29

labor structure that is benefiting from apartheid,

1:00:31

but you're trying to produce nuclear weapons

1:00:34

so you can defend that system from

1:00:36

the world that is trying to shut

1:00:38

you down. And like all these guys who

1:00:40

had family connections in South Africa. And

1:00:42

they're all white by the way, which

1:00:45

I think it's very important. And they

1:00:47

went to American college campuses and and

1:00:49

in Teals cases the 1980 cases, the

1:00:51

1980s. Apartheid was like the cause on

1:00:53

the left. And I think what I

1:00:55

think was a political statement by the anti-apartheid

1:00:57

activists, you know, at Stanford in the

1:01:00

80s, but you process it as a

1:01:02

personal attack. Yeah, you're talking about my

1:01:04

family and like I did some reporting

1:01:07

talking to people who went to college

1:01:09

with him and where he would get

1:01:11

into these arguments. He's denied, I should

1:01:14

say. supporting apartheid or expressing

1:01:16

pro-apartheid views, but there are

1:01:18

certainly classmates of his who

1:01:20

remember him doing so. Can

1:01:22

I just interject and tell

1:01:24

you something? And this is

1:01:26

something that really plagues me. I

1:01:28

have yet to meet someone who supports

1:01:30

it apartheid. It's really weird, guys.

1:01:32

Are you being serious? I am yet

1:01:35

to meet a person. It really worries

1:01:37

me because it's almost like apartheid just

1:01:39

happened by itself. I mean, no, everything

1:01:41

you're saying, yeah. Let me tell you

1:01:44

something now. I have yet to meet a

1:01:46

person anywhere in the world who was in

1:01:48

apartheid, for instance, and who goes like,

1:01:50

yeah, no, Trevor, I didn't want those

1:01:52

blacks and white. No, I have yet,

1:01:54

every person I'll talk to. Everyone free

1:01:57

Mandela. They go like, I was totally

1:01:59

against it. Then I'm like, huh, everyone

1:02:01

was against it. Huh, so who was

1:02:03

for it? Because it seems like there

1:02:05

were a lot of people for it.

1:02:08

Seems like a lot of people didn't

1:02:10

want the thing to stop. A lot

1:02:12

of people benefited from it. It seems

1:02:14

like a lot of people. Huh, for

1:02:16

a thing that nobody wanted to end.

1:02:19

But anyway, forgive me, I just, anyway.

1:02:21

Yeah, what's weird though is, when I

1:02:23

first started talking to Elon, He made

1:02:25

apartheid part of the reason he wanted

1:02:27

to come to North America. He said,

1:02:30

I left South Africa because I was

1:02:32

so against apartheid. And he's always very

1:02:34

careful. Wait, how old was he when

1:02:36

he left? He was like 17 or

1:02:38

something. Okay. That's the story he told.

1:02:41

And of course... You know, the story

1:02:43

has shifted a little bit. I mean,

1:02:45

it is, you know, now he's very

1:02:47

concerned as, you know, as you're saying

1:02:49

about the, you know, the property rights

1:02:52

of the white farmers or whatever. Yes,

1:02:54

yes, yes. And so, so I don't

1:02:56

know like what the truth of, what

1:02:58

the truth of it is there, but

1:03:00

I do think there might have been

1:03:02

a sense of like feeling attacked and

1:03:05

then reacting, you know, in a sort

1:03:07

of these people. A lot of these

1:03:09

tech leaders who came through like South

1:03:11

Africa and like were you know in

1:03:13

and around apartheid at the time. They

1:03:16

witnessed something that is very unique to

1:03:18

countries like South Africa and that is

1:03:20

the proximity between business and government and

1:03:22

how the two work hand in hand

1:03:24

to further each other's goals, right? So

1:03:27

apartheid is not a free system. Apartite

1:03:29

is not a world where the best

1:03:31

company wins. is accelerated. No, apartheid is

1:03:33

a system where the government says, will

1:03:35

you help us to turn coal into

1:03:38

oil because we've been oil embargoed? Yes,

1:03:40

you have the business. We will give

1:03:42

you all the resources you need to

1:03:44

give us all the oil we need.

1:03:46

And then all the anti-apartheid companies, they

1:03:49

left South Africa, right? But the system

1:03:51

is set up in such a way

1:03:53

where there's like a direct, it's very

1:03:55

Very similar to like Cold War Russia,

1:03:57

you know, it's like you help the

1:04:00

government, the government helps you, you help

1:04:02

the government, the government helps you. And

1:04:04

then these people come to America where

1:04:06

that's like frowned upon. It's almost like,

1:04:08

oh, no, no, no, no, no, no,

1:04:11

church and state, things are separate here,

1:04:13

you don't do that. But I think

1:04:15

they still have this idea where they

1:04:17

go like, no, no, no, hey, government,

1:04:19

we help you, and you help us.

1:04:22

And they have the racism too. plight

1:04:24

against South Africa. Again, I'm not sure

1:04:26

this is perfect, but I saw it

1:04:28

start when he wasn't able to launch

1:04:30

Starling in South Africa, because in South

1:04:33

Africa the government says they want to

1:04:35

make sure that you have minority ownership

1:04:37

when you launch a company. And the

1:04:39

reason the government did this, and they

1:04:41

haven't done it perfectly by the way,

1:04:44

I'm never going to say it's the

1:04:46

poster child, but what they were trying

1:04:48

to do is they were going guys,

1:04:50

we've learned that money gets closed off.

1:04:52

So if we don't. have representation in

1:04:55

terms of who owns the companies, the

1:04:57

money's never going to go anywhere. And

1:04:59

when you say minority ownership, South Africa

1:05:01

is a black majority. Yes. No, no,

1:05:03

what I mean is like, sorry, now

1:05:05

what we say minority here. So I'm

1:05:08

saying like black people of color, yeah,

1:05:10

people of color. So that explains the

1:05:12

anti-DII thing he has. Exactly. So Elon,

1:05:14

I think they went, you're not going

1:05:16

to let me open this. And not

1:05:19

only did they not let him, they

1:05:21

then banned Starlink. And then now Starlink,

1:05:23

you can't use it inside, even though

1:05:25

it's a satellite thing, they don't enable

1:05:27

it in South Africa. And I think

1:05:30

Elon now again was personally, he was

1:05:32

like, oh, I'm going to find a

1:05:34

way to break the system. And one

1:05:36

thing I've heard about Elon, from everyone

1:05:38

who's worked in and around his orbit,

1:05:41

is he is supremely talented at finding

1:05:43

the right lever to pull and he

1:05:45

will pull it. It doesn't matter what

1:05:47

he's trying to do. But Elon. That's

1:05:49

the lever. I need to get people

1:05:52

working harder, that's the lever. I need

1:05:54

to get these people doing this, that's

1:05:56

the lever. To start businesses that break

1:05:58

things... and don't follow the rules. What

1:06:00

do you need? You need the people

1:06:03

who make the rules to lose some

1:06:05

of their power. What's the best way

1:06:07

to get those people to lose some

1:06:09

of their power? You find the people

1:06:11

who are the least happy, you find

1:06:14

the people who have the most hate

1:06:16

fermenting, and you encourage that, and you

1:06:18

grow it, and you nestle. And so

1:06:20

what you, essentially, I love that you

1:06:22

said it in the beginning with Peter

1:06:25

Thiel. These guys are essentially investing in

1:06:27

disruptors all around the world. They're just

1:06:29

so they're very opportunistic. They're seed funding

1:06:31

everywhere. They're using the same principles of

1:06:33

like money. They go, Christiana, tell me

1:06:36

about your movement? Huh. You believe that

1:06:38

government shouldn't exist? You know what? You

1:06:40

know what? This sounds like a good

1:06:42

company. Yeah, there is a great company.

1:06:44

You know what? It might be a

1:06:47

risky bet, but it's nothing in the

1:06:49

greater scheme of things. I'm just going

1:06:51

to throw you a bone. And I'm

1:06:53

going to throw you a bone, and

1:06:55

I'm going to throw you a bone.

1:06:57

And as we see it growing around

1:07:00

the world, you just need a few

1:07:02

unicorns for all your bets to pay

1:07:04

off. You did a few billion dollar

1:07:06

companies to make up for every like

1:07:08

hundred thousand dollars you've invested. And I

1:07:11

think that's what he's doing there. I

1:07:13

think that's what he's doing in Germany.

1:07:15

If Germany collapses and if the German

1:07:17

car economy collapses, seems like there's a

1:07:19

big winner somewhere, his name is Elon

1:07:22

Musk. Places that he doesn't care about,

1:07:24

it's because they don't in some way

1:07:26

shape or form benefit him. Do you

1:07:28

know what I mean? Yeah. I think

1:07:30

you're right. I think there's always an

1:07:33

angle with him and like all often

1:07:35

a business angle. Like I don't think

1:07:37

he's ever, I mean he does obviously

1:07:39

have some ideology, but like you said

1:07:41

about the apartheid system and this idea

1:07:44

of like... of becoming sort of a

1:07:46

client of the government or something like

1:07:48

that. Like he has been so freaking

1:07:50

good at getting the government to give

1:07:52

him money. Yeah, brilliant. And like you

1:07:55

said, finding these levers. And those levers

1:07:57

can be, they can be like reaching

1:07:59

regular people and saying like here's this

1:08:01

awesome product, but they also are. often

1:08:03

and have often been like political levers

1:08:06

in like I agree I don't fully

1:08:08

understand the dynamics of German politics and

1:08:10

what exactly he's doing with the AFD

1:08:12

which is the foreign party in Germany

1:08:14

but it definitely everything

1:08:17

I know about Elon tells me

1:08:19

there's an angle there and whether

1:08:21

it's something having to do the

1:08:23

auto industry you know he has

1:08:25

union issues in Germany or perhaps

1:08:27

you know Europeans have a space

1:08:29

agency they compete with SpaceX maybe

1:08:32

looking for more contracts there or

1:08:34

whatever but he's he's trying to

1:08:36

find an in and it's just

1:08:38

there you know there's obviously

1:08:40

there's collateral damage sometimes when

1:08:42

when you're when that's your

1:08:45

when that's your modus operandi. I know

1:08:47

we're going to have to let you go,

1:08:49

so it's a terrible question to ask

1:08:51

you because we are finding you in

1:08:53

the middle of a story. This is

1:08:56

a book that hasn't concluded, but if

1:08:58

you were to try and not necessarily

1:09:00

predict what you think will happen, but

1:09:02

maybe a more interesting one for me

1:09:05

would be, what do you predict their

1:09:07

end goal and their aim is? Because

1:09:09

you know, sort of what Cristiano was

1:09:11

saying. They have the money or they

1:09:14

have the access to the money, they

1:09:16

have the valuation, they have, you know,

1:09:18

the power, etc. But what is, is

1:09:20

there an angle? Like, does Peter Thiel

1:09:23

rest when something is achieved? Does Elon

1:09:25

Musk rest when something is achieved? Or

1:09:27

are they, as you said, like a

1:09:29

fusion reaction that is now powering

1:09:32

itself infinitely? I think

1:09:34

with Thiel, there is a more calculating

1:09:36

approach. He has not gone all

1:09:38

in with Trump. And there were a

1:09:40

lot of people. around him and in

1:09:42

the kind of right-wing silicon valley world

1:09:44

saying like what a huge mistake i

1:09:47

mean he was he was the the

1:09:49

earliest trump supporter like why is he

1:09:51

not supporting trump but i think like

1:09:53

we are living as you said in

1:09:55

that moment and where and there has

1:09:57

been you know as we're talking like

1:09:59

this kind of High of Trump's support

1:10:01

and Trump's power and that won't last

1:10:03

and and I think Tial has set

1:10:05

himself well Set himself up well in

1:10:08

case it doesn't last because he has

1:10:10

a he's a very close relationship with

1:10:12

JD Vance Who's Trump's vice president and

1:10:14

and who Tial basically helped him start

1:10:17

his political career was his his main

1:10:19

donor to to vance the senate campaign

1:10:21

so if advance uh... you know becomes

1:10:23

the republican candidate uh... in twenty twenty

1:10:26

eight as i think he's probably a

1:10:28

favor to do deal has an end

1:10:30

must i think is somebody who needs

1:10:32

this kind of endless crisis a sort

1:10:35

of endless series of I don't know

1:10:37

like games or something what he wants

1:10:39

his end game is he sells all

1:10:41

the cars he sells all the rocket

1:10:44

launches he's worth way more money he's

1:10:46

even said this you know he thinks

1:10:48

Tesla his car company should be worth

1:10:50

you know 30 trillion dollars or something

1:10:53

like if that's worth 30 trillion dollars

1:10:55

Elon is gonna be worth you know

1:10:57

like I don't know like six trillion

1:10:59

seven trillion seven trillion more probably so

1:11:02

for him it's it's just like way

1:11:04

more dominance, being able to sort of,

1:11:06

essentially run the world. Yeah, God King,

1:11:08

that's what it sounds like to me.

1:11:11

I don't think that is the most

1:11:13

likely scenario. But I do think that

1:11:15

is the, that's like what he is

1:11:17

pushing for. And I think to some

1:11:20

extent, you know, it's up to voters

1:11:22

and democracy to try to restrain him.

1:11:24

Damn. Well, here's hoping, Max, here's hoping.

1:11:26

And I say this, I hope you

1:11:29

take this in the best way possible.

1:11:31

I hope that your podcast becomes less

1:11:33

relevant as time goes. Fair enough. And

1:11:35

I hope the people who listen now

1:11:38

are now just like interested in business

1:11:40

and like, you know, and I hope

1:11:42

it has like not as much of

1:11:44

a broad appeal because right now I

1:11:47

think Elon Inc. It is like the

1:11:49

hub of everything and so, yeah man,

1:11:51

thank you for taking the time and

1:11:53

coming and sharing. a of

1:11:56

the of us. Appreciate

1:11:58

it. Thank you both

1:12:00

for having me. it.

1:12:02

Thank you both for having me. What

1:12:05

Now with Trevanoa is produced by Spotify

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