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more Americans bowl than vote, for example.

0:15

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0:18

the bowling room. When you put your

0:20

fingers in, you should like get the

0:22

little die and then you vote straight

0:25

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I cannot tell you how

1:38

excited I am to have you

1:40

on the podcast and I think

1:42

I think everyone will be because Robert

1:44

Putnam is one of those names that

1:47

is surprisingly... unknown but then surprisingly very

1:49

well known depending on who you ask.

1:51

So if you ask a lot of

1:54

people in the streets, if you said

1:56

do you know Robert Putnam, they would

1:58

probably maybe say no. But if the

2:00

person in the street that you

2:03

asked was somebody like Barack Obama,

2:05

then he'd be like, yeah, I

2:07

know Robert and I know him

2:09

well. And you'd be like, wow.

2:11

Actually, he would say Bob, I've

2:13

been over this. There's a really

2:15

funny New York Times interview in

2:17

which the New York Times interview

2:19

was trying to say, I know

2:21

New York Times reported pretty well

2:23

connected. I know Robert Putnam and

2:26

Barack just says, no, it's Bob.

2:28

I like that. Hey, that's when

2:30

you know somebody. So actually, let's

2:32

talk about that because it, although

2:34

it seems crazy, will tie into

2:36

everything that we're going to talk

2:38

about today, loneliness, community, and fundamentally,

2:40

funny enough, how all of it

2:42

is integral in making sure that

2:44

a democracy actually works, which I

2:46

think is very important in America

2:48

right now, because people are wondering

2:51

if this democracy can and will

2:53

work. you know in the next

2:55

few decades and we're experiencing this

2:57

around the world but but but

2:59

tell us a little bit about

3:01

that how does Barack Obama president

3:03

of the United States come to

3:05

know you as Bob how does

3:07

this journey begin about 20 years

3:09

ago not well maybe not quite

3:11

that 15 years ago maybe I

3:14

was trying to run a seminar

3:16

I was running a seminar of

3:18

people and the idea was to

3:20

bring people from very very diverse

3:22

backgrounds together once every three months for

3:24

a couple of years to try to

3:26

figure out how to solve the problem

3:28

of social isolation in America and its

3:31

political consequences is not just loneliness it's

3:33

also effects as you said and we're

3:35

kind of come back to that the

3:37

chances of democracy surviving we had a

3:39

big multi-dimensional matrix we want to make

3:42

sure we had enough men and women

3:44

and blacks and Asians and Latinos and

3:46

whites and old and young and rich

3:48

and poor and business and labor etc.

3:50

You can imagine this multi-dimensional scheme and

3:53

we got it all filled but we

3:55

had one box that we had not

3:57

yet filled for a young black community

3:59

organizer. And my son, who

4:01

had been at Harvard Law School, said,

4:03

you know, you ought to check out this really

4:06

bright guy I know who I play basketball

4:08

with. Because it turns on my son, this

4:10

is going to make you believe in the

4:12

conspiracy theory of American life.

4:15

My son happened to be on

4:17

the Harvard Law Review with Barack

4:19

and play basketball together. Wow. He

4:21

said, well, he's a community organizer

4:23

out in Chicago. I said, bingo,

4:25

that sort of fits our right

4:27

matrix. So we got this guy

4:29

here. He's. One of the youngest people

4:31

in the group and and he's very

4:33

ambitious is clear He's very ambitious, but

4:36

he's also cute He's a little bit

4:38

like the mosque like a mascot in

4:40

this group and so you know in

4:42

like in a summer camp people develop

4:44

nicknames and our nickname for him was

4:46

the governor Because we thought what

4:48

a joke this guy's ambitious and

4:50

he thinks he's gonna eventually become

4:52

Hilar of Illinois. This is the

4:54

guy who five years later is

4:56

the president of the United States

4:59

So you weren't wrong, Governor was

5:01

a joke. There was something else

5:03

that's important about him. Yes. You know

5:05

he's very smart, but he's also,

5:07

at least he can be very quiet.

5:09

And this is a group of big eagles,

5:11

and so the first, you know, we gather

5:13

on Friday night, Friday night, and all

5:15

day, a month of Saturday up

5:17

until lunch, everybody else was doing

5:19

what we called station identification, that

5:22

is they were... telling us how

5:24

important they were and why their

5:26

views were the most important. And

5:28

Obama kept silent during all of

5:30

that. And then after lunch, he'd

5:32

say, you know, I've been listening

5:35

to this. I've been listening especially

5:37

to Susan and to Josh, and they

5:39

think they disagree. But I think underneath,

5:41

Susan and Josh agree. And they

5:44

did. And everybody around the table

5:46

was open mouths. How did he

5:48

see that? We've been all sitting

5:50

through the same conversation. And there

5:52

was polarized. in many different ways, but

5:54

he saw a way in which he could

5:56

frame an issue in ways that

5:58

would be productive. for the whole

6:00

group going forward. Oh wow. He's

6:03

able to see through all this,

6:05

you know, all the fun. Yeah,

6:07

yeah, he's able to, he's able

6:09

to connect groups that don't necessarily

6:11

think they have anything that connects

6:13

them. But I feel like that's

6:15

the perfect jumping of point to

6:17

get into your work. And I

6:19

won't say single-handedly, because you always

6:21

give credit to your team, and

6:23

I think that's important, but you

6:25

have been at the forefront of

6:28

helping us understand social isolation. and

6:30

why this can very well be

6:32

the reason society crumbles. Society as

6:34

we know it. You know, everyone

6:36

talks about we're more polarized than

6:38

ever. People say like, oh, you

6:40

know, and I don't get along

6:42

with the other parents at school

6:44

and people say like, I don't

6:46

get along with the other parents

6:48

at school and people say like,

6:51

I can't talk to my family

6:53

because of politics and I don't

6:55

even know my neighbor's names. And

6:57

at the same time, helping us

6:59

understand the data behind the feeling.

7:01

And you've written a few books

7:03

about this. You know, bowling alone

7:05

was obviously, I mean, you know,

7:07

your seminal work, which was then,

7:09

it went on like an interesting

7:11

journey and we'll talk about some

7:13

of it, you know, the praise,

7:16

the criticism. And then you talked

7:18

about like making democracies work, etc.

7:20

But let's start with the fundamental

7:22

problem at the bottom of it.

7:24

Sure. Why do you think it's

7:26

such a big deal that people

7:28

are or say they're lonely? minimizing

7:30

social isolation? Well, of course, there

7:32

are reasons to worry about people

7:34

being lonely. That's, indeed, the title

7:36

of this film that's now, you

7:38

know, out and about, on Netflix,

7:41

and in the... Join or die.

7:43

Join or die. Your chances of

7:45

dying are high, actually. I've had...

7:47

Sorry to say that, but your

7:49

chances of dying over the next

7:51

year are cut in half by

7:53

joining one group. And that is

7:55

their real... serious health effects and

7:57

this is controlling for everything you

7:59

like. It's... It is really social

8:01

isolation that causes premature death, but

8:03

it also undermines the foundation for democracy.

8:06

And that's another part of the

8:08

title, join or die, refers to the

8:10

fact that Benjamin Franklin at the time

8:12

of the founding of the American Republic

8:14

said, unless we join together, our democracy

8:17

is going to die. That is, it

8:19

refers both to the personal effects, which

8:21

are big, and to the collective effects.

8:24

And the collective effects. By

8:26

the way, or not just

8:28

democracy, our economy grows more

8:30

slowly. Our society becomes more

8:33

unequal. The political polarization is

8:35

a big consequence of the lack

8:37

of social capital. And bowling

8:39

alone, the book Bowling Alone, first

8:41

published in about 2000, but most

8:43

of it was written in the

8:45

late 90s, said, we've been going

8:48

downhill for a long time in

8:50

terms of our connections. All sorts

8:52

of connections. We've been going to fewer

8:54

club meetings, but we've been going on

8:56

fewer picnics. And we trust other people

8:58

less. And we're less connected to our

9:00

friends and to community organizations, but also

9:02

to our family. All those ways in

9:05

which we connect, all of them turned

9:07

out to be going down. When I wrote

9:09

that book, and now, 25 years later, it turns

9:11

out they've gone down even further. When

9:13

you're talking about social connectiveness, just to

9:15

clarify this for people, what do you

9:17

mean? There are people who will say,

9:20

but Robert, I've got followers on Instagram

9:22

and I talk to people on my

9:24

Facebook and I, you know, I see

9:26

people at school and what do you

9:29

mean? Yeah, also off that, I'm curious

9:31

about the Wii, because my world

9:33

is predominantly women and people

9:35

of color, and our complaint is

9:37

that we can't get rid of people, like,

9:40

you know, like... you've started off with

9:42

like kind of this collective we which

9:44

I'd like to disrupt a bit right

9:46

because there is no real collective we

9:48

hence this kind of political the political

9:50

differences that we have and black women

9:52

in this country are probably one

9:54

of the few groups where life expectancy is

9:56

actually holding or going up right and one

9:58

of the reason black women vote the

10:00

way they do and behave the way

10:03

they do is because they have this

10:05

deep sense of community among each other.

10:07

So I'd say speaking for black women

10:09

statistically, these aren't black women's problems. And

10:11

that's often because we are the carers.

10:13

We are the people that are looking

10:15

after children, elderly family members. They're looking

10:18

to us. So I don't know many

10:20

isolated black women in the way that

10:22

you speak of. Also, I say just

10:24

like ethnically, I'm Nigerian British, I'm Ibo.

10:26

It wasn't just about my tribe, it

10:28

was about my clan, which is a

10:30

whole people. And we had this group

10:33

where people pay Jews all the time.

10:35

And when my great uncle died, part

10:37

of the Jews contributed to his... funeral.

10:39

So I think for ethnic minorities in

10:41

this country, whether it's Latinos, it's African-Americans,

10:43

it's Asians, there are different cultural ties

10:46

there, that the idea of when I

10:48

read, pick up the newspaper and I

10:50

hear a story of somebody dying alone

10:52

and they don't find the body for

10:54

months, I'm like, how does that happen?

10:56

Because there's 20 people knocking your door.

10:58

And I'm not saying that from my

11:01

personal experience, but you know. So I

11:03

will say funny enough. I hear you

11:05

both saying the same thing, genuinely. You

11:07

know, if I listen to what you're

11:09

saying, Robert, you're saying that our life

11:11

expectancy is directly tied to how many

11:13

groups we are a part of, right?

11:16

And how close those are, yeah. And

11:18

how close those are. And everything I'm

11:20

hearing you say, funny enough, is, and

11:22

I understand the delineation of like the

11:24

we, but I mean, we use the

11:26

we in many different ways, but I

11:28

hear you saying the same thing, you're

11:31

going, black women's life expectancy is holding

11:33

and going up in America, because... partly

11:35

they are in these tight-knit groups and

11:37

so maybe that's sort of what I'd

11:39

like us to figure out is what

11:41

are some groups holding on to that

11:44

other groups are letting go of because

11:46

I agree with you I think even

11:48

if I look at my life you

11:50

know Robert I grew up in South

11:52

Africa I know your life I grew

11:54

up in in London right but right

11:56

we have similarities and the main thing

11:59

for me was Till this day even

12:01

black women Almost never found themselves

12:03

without a community and they worked

12:05

towards it. So my grandmother was

12:07

part of a thing called a society

12:10

Where all the grandmothers would come together

12:12

and they would put their money into

12:14

a collection and one member would get

12:16

money every single month and then there

12:18

was like a funeral society as well,

12:20

and that was just a group of

12:22

people who come together to talk about

12:25

funerals and then there was another church

12:27

society and that self-explanatory and so Maybe

12:29

that's what I want to try to

12:31

get to, because I actually hear you

12:33

both saying the same thing. And correct

12:35

me if I'm wrong, I think the

12:38

we you're talking about is like

12:40

all of us, every single human being

12:42

in a society. And Christiana,

12:44

what you're saying is like,

12:46

you know, black women don't seem to

12:48

have the same issue. So maybe let's dig

12:50

into that. You did a lot of this

12:53

work in Italy, right? A lot

12:55

of your seminal work came from

12:57

Italy. Originally, I know America is... the

12:59

be all and end all for many

13:01

people. But I think a lot of

13:04

America's issues and ideas can be

13:06

solved or have been solved in

13:08

other countries. You know, you go to

13:10

Italy and really you're on

13:12

this journey of trying to

13:15

understand why democracies work better

13:17

or worse or even to

13:19

get more granular. You're trying

13:21

to understand why some people.

13:23

trust government more, why some

13:25

people trust institutions more, and

13:27

why some governments and institutions

13:29

are working better for the

13:31

people that they're looking after.

13:33

And help me understand how Italy ties the

13:35

story together for you. What do you

13:37

learn in Italy? Well, I want to step

13:39

back just a little bit. If you were

13:42

a botanist and wanted to study

13:44

plant growth, how a plant was

13:46

influenced by its environment, you'd take

13:48

genetically identical seeds, you'd plant them

13:51

in different... parts of soil,

13:53

you'd water them differently, and then

13:55

you'd measure and see how, you know,

13:57

which plants flourished and which faltered.

14:00

And then you knew it would

14:02

be something that you did in

14:04

the soil or how much you

14:06

watered them. That's what Italians did

14:08

in Italy in 1970. They created

14:10

a new set of regional governments

14:12

all across Italy from up in

14:14

the Alps to down in Sicily.

14:16

They all have the same powers

14:18

and money. They look the same

14:20

on paper, but the environments into

14:22

which they were planted. were very,

14:24

very different. Some were very advanced

14:26

economically, some were very backward economically,

14:28

some were Catholics, some were communists,

14:30

etc. And so we over for

14:32

2025 years followed those regional governments.

14:34

We could see that some of

14:36

them were very successful, not only

14:39

in terms of were they able

14:41

to build daycare centers when they

14:43

planned to, but also in terms

14:45

of what did the people think?

14:47

So we could see there were

14:49

some successful governments and some failures,

14:51

and then the question is, well,

14:53

what was in the soil? And

14:55

we had a lot of different

14:57

ideas. We thought maybe it was

14:59

just economic wealth made the difference,

15:01

or we thought maybe it was

15:03

education that made a difference. But

15:05

we didn't guess what it turned

15:07

out to be, which was quarrel

15:09

societies, singing groups, and football clubs

15:11

and so on, by which I

15:13

mean, in some places of Italy,

15:16

people in the region connected with

15:18

one another, across various lines. singing

15:20

together. So that's what we came

15:22

to call social capital. We were

15:24

talking about these bonds that brought

15:26

people in a given region or

15:28

community together across lines. And in

15:30

northern Italy, especially North Central Italy,

15:32

around Bologna, for example, there was

15:34

a lot of a lot of

15:36

that kind of what I came

15:38

to call social capital, that is

15:40

these connections among people, and they

15:42

had very effective... still do very

15:44

very effective regional governments but some

15:46

places especially in the south they

15:48

didn't they didn't have those kinds

15:50

of groups and they didn't and

15:53

they had terrible corrupt inefficient never

15:55

answered the phone even regional governments

15:57

now what I want and now

15:59

I'm coming back to what

16:01

Christiana asked about. Did they

16:03

just have no groups down there?

16:05

No, they had very tiny little

16:07

groups, families. They looked

16:09

after their own immediate family, but

16:12

weren't involved in groups with people,

16:14

you know, even on the other

16:16

side of the street, much less

16:18

on the other side of town.

16:21

Now, what I'm trying to say is

16:23

there we was strong, but very

16:25

narrow. And what was characteristic

16:27

up north? was that they

16:29

had much broader groups in

16:31

which people from different

16:33

families and different walks

16:36

of life would come together

16:38

to sing. Now, Christian, I may

16:40

not have... persuaded you in what I've

16:42

said now, but I've tried to convey

16:45

the way I hear your objections. No,

16:47

I actually come from that world. A

16:49

huge extended family, a huge church family,

16:51

my husband's an only child, but comes

16:53

from a big extended family and loads

16:56

of friends. So my conception of, as

16:58

much as I had the depth of

17:00

my clan and my ethnic group, you

17:02

know when I was time to dedicate

17:04

my kids I flew back to London so

17:06

it happened in the home church where I

17:08

was dedicated in sure a man that christened

17:11

me christened my children do you know what

17:13

I mean so like this is I guess

17:15

what I'm trying to articulate is that for

17:17

a lot of people maybe from similar backgrounds

17:20

as mine that's our conceit already that like

17:22

the fact that this it's not foreign do

17:24

you get what you get what you're saying

17:26

it's like it's like this extended group

17:28

and clan and so very different

17:31

and it's very diverse. So there's

17:33

one thing I want I want

17:35

us to get to in a way. Maybe

17:37

let's start with with this part. The

17:39

why. Why does it change anything? So what

17:42

I love about the story is, you

17:44

know, oftentimes when we're talking

17:46

about an issue in society. As you

17:48

say, because we don't have all of

17:51

the data and because we we have

17:53

confirmation bias, we'll pick the thing that

17:55

we think is the cause. And we'll

17:58

stick with it. So we go, oh, so. society

18:00

is declining because of social media.

18:02

Oh, society is declining because of

18:04

politics. Oh, society is declining because,

18:06

okay, but you had a natural

18:08

experiment, the very few, you know,

18:10

social scientists will ever have. Help

18:12

us understand the why in that.

18:14

I would love to know why

18:16

your government will work better if

18:18

your community has more clubs in

18:20

it. I don't think that correlation

18:22

is easy for everyone to see.

18:24

Let me see if I can

18:26

explain it this way. If you.

18:28

See people regularly in your good

18:30

friends. I don't mean intimate friends,

18:32

but you know you you have

18:34

a good good good friendship Yeah,

18:36

much less a deeper friendship What

18:38

tends to evolve is a norm

18:40

of reciprocity that is I'll do

18:42

this for you now Without expecting

18:44

something back immediately from you because

18:46

down the road. We'll see each

18:48

other at choir practice and you'll

18:50

do something for me. I'll do

18:52

this for you now without expecting

18:54

something back And indeed, if everybody

18:56

in the community is connected, I'll

18:58

do something for somebody who I

19:01

don't actually know because if other

19:03

people watching see that I'm cheating

19:05

him, they won't play games with

19:07

me. So in other words, everybody

19:09

learns that the people in this

19:11

town are nice to each other.

19:13

Wouldn't you love to live in

19:15

a place where people were nice

19:17

to each other? Yeah, yeah. And

19:19

moreover, and this is the main

19:21

point of bowling alone, we learned

19:23

when we carried those ideas back

19:25

to the United States, that... That

19:27

has changed over time. There have

19:29

been periods in American history when

19:31

we did have connections with other

19:33

people. I grew up in a

19:35

small town in Ohio in the

19:37

late 1950s and nobody locked their

19:39

door. And when I told my

19:41

children in the grandchildren that, they

19:43

think Grandpa's line. No, in that

19:45

period. And it wasn't about race.

19:47

There were black kids. I played

19:49

football. There's a picture on the

19:51

cover of bowling alone of me

19:53

and my bowling league when I

19:55

was in the junior high school

19:57

and there are three white guys.

19:59

tall skinny one in the middle

20:01

and there are two black eyes and

20:03

so this was not about race I

20:05

mean it didn't it wasn't bounded this

20:08

trust and reciprocity was not bounded then

20:10

there by race I'm not saying race

20:12

was not a problem of course it

20:14

was but I mean in terms of

20:16

this in a small town in the

20:19

1950s right right right people left their

20:21

door unlocked and that's because of

20:23

what I and my jargon call

20:25

social capital so All I'm saying

20:28

is not that every single person

20:30

in America has lost trust

20:32

or has become untrustworthy,

20:34

but on average, and we've now

20:36

shown this to be true all over America,

20:39

people are less connected

20:41

and therefore less trustworthy

20:43

than they used to be, there are

20:46

differences across America and

20:48

the places that are still

20:50

relatively high. are in social connection, are

20:53

somewhat more trustworthy. Indeed, I'm

20:55

sorry, I'm going to tell you

20:57

more social science than you want

20:59

to know. People do an interesting

21:01

study. They drop letters on the

21:03

street with money in them, sealed, but

21:05

with money in them, and addressed. And

21:08

then they ask, in any given town

21:10

or in neighborhood, how many of those

21:12

letters are actually put in the mailbox

21:14

so the owner can get their money

21:16

back? What a fascinating experiment. There are

21:18

cities in America where your odds of

21:21

getting your money back if you drop

21:23

it in an envelope, drop it on

21:25

the street, are zero. And there are

21:27

places, this is hard to believe, there

21:29

are places in America where if you

21:31

drop an envelope with money in it,

21:33

you're 80% likely to get the money back.

21:36

So big differences. So Bob, maybe help

21:38

us understand, you know, the idea of

21:40

bowling alone. Because I think, you know,

21:42

it is important to help people understand

21:44

that first of all, it is an

21:46

example. Yes. And I think what you

21:48

liked about it is sort of why

21:51

it connects with me is that it's

21:53

a simple example to understand, right? Because

21:55

everyone can go bowling, but it's the

21:57

alone that really became the significant...

21:59

that showed what was going wrong

22:02

in America and in many other

22:04

parts of the world where people

22:06

are experiencing this. So help us

22:08

understand. There's been virtually no decline

22:10

in bowling itself, but it used

22:12

to be that people bowled in

22:14

teams, in leagues, and there has

22:16

been a complete collapse of team

22:19

bowling, of league bowling. when I

22:21

told a friend of mine that,

22:23

he said, oh, you mean we're

22:25

bowling alone? And I thought that's

22:27

a good title for a book,

22:29

if ever I write a book

22:31

about this, it sure does be

22:33

a good title. But what is

22:35

a difference? What is the experiential

22:38

difference? Yes. Christina, have you ever

22:40

bowled? Yeah, a couple times, but

22:42

I'm from England. So, actually, I

22:44

know where every bowling... alley in

22:46

London is because whenever I've gone

22:48

over there I'm selling selling books

22:50

every journalist thought their clever idea

22:52

would be to interview me in

22:54

a bowling alley so I can

22:57

find every bowling alley in central

22:59

London in a bowling in a

23:01

bowling in a league there are

23:03

five people on a team and

23:05

two teams are playing against each

23:07

other and how well you do

23:09

depends on how well the team

23:11

does not how well you individually

23:14

do and at any given time

23:16

two people are up at the

23:18

lane throwing the ball down but

23:20

the other eight people are sitting

23:22

in a semicircle at the back

23:24

of the alleys and they're mostly

23:26

talking you know and they're talking

23:28

about what was on TV last

23:30

night or they're talking about occasionally

23:33

they're talking about you know the

23:35

local schools or you know whether

23:37

they should a bond issue should

23:39

be passed to cover the costs

23:41

of the new sewer system or

23:43

whatever and Now I'm going to

23:45

suddenly change that description. Occasionally they're

23:47

having a conversation about public civic

23:49

life. That's high pollutant for saying

23:52

they just got into a discussion

23:54

with people they know well. Remember,

23:56

these are people they see every

23:58

week, and they know how to

24:00

interpret what the people say. They're

24:02

not total strangers because they fall

24:04

in the league and with other

24:06

members of the team, but they're

24:09

also real human beings. And so

24:11

the reason I decided to use

24:13

that as a metaphor is that

24:15

it does say, here are people

24:17

who know each other, if you're

24:19

in a team, they know each

24:21

other, and they're not doing politics,

24:23

but occasionally... they're able to have

24:25

a conversation that's a kind of

24:28

a responsible conversation. It's not just

24:30

two guys yelling each other or

24:32

two gals yelling each other. There's

24:34

two people who are going to

24:36

have to get along because the

24:38

next week they're going to be

24:40

back in the same bowling alley.

24:42

And so it seemed to me

24:44

a useful way of describing how

24:47

bowling in a league in a

24:49

team is not just fun. I

24:51

mean, it's important to emphasize this.

24:53

I really wish I didn't emphasize

24:55

this more. Social capital can't just

24:57

be each or spinach. It's got

24:59

to be fun too. I mean,

25:01

it's, it's, it's, it's, so, and

25:03

that's why I use the example

25:06

of bullying things. It's not saying,

25:08

oh, go to a, a good

25:10

government meeting. Well, who wants to

25:12

go to a good mother, good

25:14

government meeting? It's got to be

25:16

fun and bowling is fun, but

25:18

it's also a little bit like

25:20

a good government meeting. We are

25:23

just. less opportunity for encountering people

25:25

that we know well to talk

25:27

occasionally about public affairs. Right, if

25:29

we only meet at a political

25:31

rally, our conversations will only be

25:33

political and then we'll forget what

25:35

connects us. One other thing I

25:37

wanted to throw in maybe here.

25:39

I know your work is all

25:42

about data, so I don't know

25:44

if you have the data on

25:46

this, but how much do you

25:48

think companies and jobs and capitalism

25:50

and the way it's been employed

25:52

in America? over the past 50-60

25:54

years has affected people's ability to

25:56

do that because you know when

25:58

you're talking about about let's go

26:01

bowling together. I just think of

26:03

personally friends of mine and how we

26:05

always want to do things but more

26:07

often than not people will say I

26:09

would love to but I work late that

26:11

day yeah I wish I could but I've

26:14

got to finish this thing for work yeah

26:16

I want to but I you know the

26:18

work and the and then it's like my

26:20

kid and I got to see the kid

26:22

because I don't have child care and I've

26:24

got to and I've got to and I

26:26

wonder because you are a man who as

26:28

you've lived through time through time You know, I

26:30

would love to know if there's

26:32

any data or any experience that

26:34

you've had that has shown you

26:36

that our ability to engage in

26:39

a league with other people is

26:41

directly affected by how much time our

26:43

work gives us off to do

26:45

that. Remarkably, I've got good data

26:47

on how people spend every hour

26:49

of their day going back to the

26:51

1960s. Would you believe that's a 60

26:54

year time trend? And it's very interesting.

26:56

We invite me back for another

26:58

two hours and I'll talk about

27:00

how our lives have changed.

27:03

For example, back in the

27:05

day in the 60s we

27:07

slept, the average American slept

27:09

7.5 hours a day and that average

27:11

is exactly 7.5 hours

27:13

today. There's been no change

27:15

on average. Some people speak

27:17

more. That's impressive though

27:19

still, yeah. But here's

27:22

the complicated part, actually.

27:24

We're spending less time at work.

27:26

We used to less time it worked.

27:28

So less time it worked. So what

27:30

do we do with our extra time?

27:32

All of it is spent in front

27:35

of screens. There's been a steady

27:37

steady long-term rise in the amount

27:39

of time we spent in front

27:41

of screens and the most

27:43

recent data you might think well,

27:46

okay, it used to be screens

27:48

like television and now it screens

27:50

like, you know, some sort of iPadsads

27:53

and whatever, yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, but

27:55

it isn't. We're actually spending more time

27:57

watching TV than we used to and...

27:59

We're adding to that, now don't

28:01

quote me exactly, because I've got

28:04

the data, I just don't have

28:06

them in front of me at

28:08

this moment, I didn't know you

28:10

were going to ask me this

28:12

question. We've added, we've added since

28:14

the advent of social media, another

28:16

two hours a day, two hours

28:18

a day. And yet we're spending

28:21

less time in the presence of

28:23

other people. I mean, the data

28:25

are just the worst you could

28:27

imagine. We've got more free time.

28:29

We do have more free time.

28:31

Wow. And we've spent more than

28:33

all of that free time in

28:35

front of a screen. Damn. I

28:37

feel cold out. Wow, wow, wow.

28:40

Well, you asked me for data.

28:42

No, I mean, yeah, I'm just,

28:44

I see, I see every... Binging

28:46

and every TV show I see

28:48

it very differently now, but of

28:50

course I want people to watch

28:52

this podcast This is a different

28:54

yeah, but I mean wow Listen

28:57

to the podcast on the way

28:59

to meet your friends. Yes, yes,

29:01

that's why we love podcast We're

29:03

gonna continue this conversation right after

29:05

this short break Robert

29:13

I'm really curious about what you

29:15

think like I'm a millennial and

29:17

I have like younger cousins who

29:19

are Genzi and we spend a

29:21

lot of our time on the

29:23

internet like I like I met

29:25

my spouse through Twitter as crazy

29:27

as that sounds like so this

29:29

is a world where people meet

29:31

their spouses whether it's tinder or

29:33

Instagram and then Genzi they spend

29:35

probably a disproportionate amount of their

29:37

time online and for some people,

29:39

and I think in my generation

29:41

and younger, that's where they found

29:43

their connections. Would you think that's

29:45

a problem or do you think

29:47

that can be an alternative third

29:49

space that maybe can foster that

29:51

sense of trust? Christiana, you asked

29:53

lots of really good questions and

29:55

they're all complicated. I'm a complicated

29:57

person, Robert. I'm sorry. Did you

29:59

say Robert? No, it's Bob, please.

30:01

Oh, we get Bob now. Wow.

30:03

Wow. Okay. Okay. I was going

30:05

to say Professor Putnam. Oh, please.

30:07

I mean, if I get a

30:09

call, a phone call, and the

30:11

person says, Robert, I just hang

30:13

up right away. If they know

30:15

me, it's a nice screen right

30:17

here, I use as an answering

30:19

the phone. Okay, Bob. Okay. I

30:21

want to say a couple of

30:23

things about social media and virtual

30:25

connections. to real face-to-face connections, what

30:27

in one, once some people call

30:29

IRL in real life. When social

30:32

media first came out, everybody thought

30:34

it was, you know, unbelievably great.

30:36

World peace was going to break

30:38

out. We would all have, and

30:40

we would all be friends with

30:42

each other because we were all

30:44

connecting it across. That always at

30:46

that time seemed a little strange

30:48

to me, but the academic work

30:50

about that's true was always more

30:52

skeptical than the people who are

30:54

making money by getting us onto

30:56

their websites. Yeah, of course. But

30:58

the real question at that point,

31:00

if I can put it this

31:02

way, was, is Facebook better or

31:04

worse than bowling leagues? I'm using

31:06

that as a, I mean, just

31:08

as labels for those two things.

31:10

And for a long time, the

31:12

academics said, I don't know, there's

31:14

some ways in which... Facebook is

31:16

not as good as bowling leagues,

31:18

but you know, you'll guess what

31:20

Mark Zuckerberg thought. And then he

31:22

one point said, well, okay, maybe

31:24

Putnam is right, but we're going

31:26

to create a new kind of

31:28

Facebook that's going to be even

31:30

super dandier, and it's going to

31:32

be wonderful, even better than bowling

31:34

leagues. But the academic research, I

31:36

repeat, was always skeptical about that.

31:38

But then came a terrible natural

31:40

experiment, COVID. But now, I promise

31:42

you I was going to get

31:44

more complicated more complicated. But I

31:46

can tell it Christian is easy

31:48

likes to deal with complications. So

31:50

I'm going to I have so

31:52

far been phrasing this problem as

31:54

if the choice we had was

31:56

between either face-to-face or social media,

31:58

right? Yes. But actually, that's not

32:00

true. Almost all of our networks

32:02

today are simultaneously face-to-face and internet-based.

32:04

Yeah. My wife Rosemary and I

32:06

do see each other a lot

32:08

every day. That is, there is

32:10

a face-to-face relationship there, but she

32:12

has a different office in mind.

32:14

And astonishingly, much of the time

32:16

I sent her an email or

32:18

sent her a text, and she

32:20

responds, it's not we have one

32:22

set of relationships that are face-to-face

32:24

and a different set of relationships

32:26

that are internet-based. They're the same,

32:28

and I want to use a

32:30

metaphor here if I can. In

32:32

chemistry, we have the idea of

32:34

an alloy is a mixture of

32:36

two different base chemicals, like... tin

32:38

and copper and you stir it

32:40

and heat it and so on

32:42

and you get something that is

32:44

neither tin or copper but I

32:46

never can remember bronze or brass

32:48

or something like that right and

32:50

and brass is different from either

32:52

of the either the tin or

32:54

the copper okay so so far

32:56

so good yeah now what I'm

32:58

saying is all of our networks

33:00

today are alloys so the question

33:02

really is how can we get

33:04

an alloy that is has the

33:06

benefits of both That is to

33:08

say, could we find a way

33:10

to create a network that has

33:12

the advantage that the internet has

33:14

of not depending upon space, but

33:16

that has the advantages of face-to-faceness,

33:19

namely, you can actually get together

33:21

and cooperate with somebody. Do we

33:23

know how to do that? And

33:25

the answer is we sure do.

33:27

We know how to, for example,

33:29

there are networks that are internet-based

33:31

for neighborhoods, and it's easy to

33:33

contact the other people. just whenever

33:35

you get the idea you want

33:37

to borrow a rake or something

33:39

you just send out an email

33:41

but then They're also in the

33:43

neighborhood so I could go and

33:45

get the... You go get the

33:47

rake in person. So it's not

33:49

a technical problem. So why don't

33:51

we have lots of these things?

33:53

It sounds like it's we want

33:55

to have this, right? And it

33:57

turns out the real answer is

33:59

these big companies. They know how

34:01

to do it. They know, and

34:03

I've known this because I've talked.

34:05

Personally, they invited me, Bob Putnam,

34:07

out to wherever it was in

34:09

Silicon Valley to talk about social

34:11

capital. Amazing. And we had a

34:13

wonderful conversation. They clearly knew what

34:15

I meant and they knew the

34:17

difference between face to face and

34:19

connected and they knew how to

34:21

use, they conveyed the idea that

34:23

they knew how to. Oh, they

34:25

knew how to use their tools

34:27

to get people to connect in

34:29

person. Yes, but why don't they

34:31

do that? Answer, when it's much

34:33

better for their business line if

34:35

people fight than if they cooperate.

34:37

You can't sell ads in person,

34:39

that's another problem. No, it's true

34:41

though, you can't. You can't, you

34:43

can't monetize people's connections when they

34:45

aren't digital, and so now you're

34:47

limiting your revenue. You know, this

34:49

seems like a similar problem that

34:51

exists in many different industries and

34:53

fields, right, in that, like let's

34:55

say food. There's nothing wrong with

34:57

drinking a glass of Coke. There

34:59

really isn't. There's nothing wrong with

35:01

having a burger from McDonald's or

35:03

whatever. There really isn't. However, those

35:05

products are oftentimes made to make

35:07

you crave them and want them

35:09

way more than you naturally would.

35:11

And you know this because you

35:13

as a person, just think about

35:15

you as a person, you do

35:17

not say to yourself, hmm, I

35:19

should do that again. You don't.

35:21

You're going like, I can't believe

35:23

I did that again. I had

35:25

too much. quote unquote a balanced

35:27

diet. So it's like have your

35:29

vegetables, have the salad, have the

35:31

stew, have the this, have the

35:33

that, and then have your snacks

35:35

and you'll be fine. But it

35:37

feels like we're in like an

35:39

arms race against companies who go

35:41

we're not gonna give you a

35:43

break. If you have a choice

35:45

of 10 meals. We want you

35:47

to pick the snacks 10 times

35:49

and we're going to design it

35:51

in such a way that you're

35:53

going to pick the snacks 10

35:55

times. But then on the outside

35:57

they'll say, no, no, no, no,

35:59

we want you to eat healthy.

36:01

And you're like, yes, but you

36:03

made your products that I can't.

36:06

Do you get what I'm saying?

36:08

And I think the same thing

36:10

goes for, like what you're saying

36:12

about social capital is, we want

36:14

to connect people, but they don't

36:16

want you to stop. Endlessly use

36:18

their product because they'll even have

36:20

a label that's like hey Remember

36:22

to take a break now and

36:24

then you know you can just

36:26

make me take a break Yeah,

36:28

you could literally they could literally

36:30

just go like Tiktok scroll scroll

36:32

scroll scroll scroll You're done. This

36:34

is your limit for the day.

36:36

Yeah. And you know what I

36:38

almost think that people would actually

36:40

like the product more because people

36:42

would go. Oh yeah I finished

36:44

my Tik for today. I'm done.

36:46

Yeah. You know like you know

36:48

like you're chronically online Let's not

36:50

talk about me. No we must

36:52

talk about you. I'm an addict

36:54

but Bob is so funny you

36:56

mentioned the neighbourhood group and the

36:58

rake. So recently I joined my

37:00

neighbourhood WhatsApp group and it's very

37:02

nimby, I thought it was very

37:04

nimbyish, but there was just like

37:06

legit concerns about crime in the

37:08

neighbourhood and the LAPD getting out

37:10

when they would come out. And

37:12

you know, sometimes people be like,

37:14

there's someone walking in the neighborhood,

37:16

this is their description, they're a

37:18

bit suspicious. And there was one

37:20

day it got a bit loaded,

37:22

because it was just like, there's

37:24

a black guy, he's in a

37:26

hoodie, or something like that, you

37:28

know, very fit the description. And

37:30

it was somebody else in the

37:32

group who's white said, hey, let's

37:34

be careful. No, it was so

37:36

refreshing. No, because I live in

37:38

a majority white neighborhood. And I

37:40

don't want to be the black.

37:42

People figured it out amongst themselves.

37:44

Because it's also the same neighborhood

37:46

group that when there is something

37:48

suspicious happening, when there is a

37:50

break-in and LAPD don't get there,

37:52

there's the same people in the

37:54

group that may say something offhand

37:56

about a description that will show

37:58

up to your house. and make sure

38:00

you're okay. And there's something about

38:03

that group that's completely transformed, like

38:05

I would be sensitive, typically if

38:07

I read about a description, but everyone

38:10

has this trust among each other to say, even if

38:12

we say the wrong thing, we don't mean it in

38:14

the wrong way, we want to keep our

38:16

neighborhood safe, and fundamentally we all

38:18

trust each other and look out for each

38:20

other. And sometimes it's like, I need flour,

38:23

does anyone have flour? You know, and this

38:25

is something I never been exposed to, but

38:27

it's happening. But I'd say the critical thing

38:29

is we have a great leader. I

38:31

don't want to say her name because

38:33

she probably doesn't want people. But then

38:35

do you meet in person to what

38:37

Bob was saying? She messaged me and

38:40

she said, she was like, she told

38:42

me her history and she was like,

38:44

I want to meet your husband and

38:46

your kids. So we're trying to figure

38:48

it out. And she's the person that

38:51

goes around and she organizes. So

38:53

you see that's probably what it's

38:55

probably. Yeah, and there's wonderful data

38:58

on that. If you were worried about crime

39:00

in your neighborhood and you had one

39:02

of two strategies, you could have a

39:04

lot more cops on the beat, pay cops more

39:06

and, you know, arm them and so on, or

39:08

you could know one another's first name.

39:10

The second is the more important

39:13

crime-fighting strategy. That is, it's

39:15

more effective to have eyes on

39:17

the street from your neighbors, just

39:19

as you're saying. And what I'm just

39:22

talking about is big, huge studies that

39:24

have done this experimentally. This is data.

39:26

This is not like an opinion. This

39:28

is data that's been there. Yeah, well,

39:30

I'm sorry. That's what I do for

39:33

a living. No, I'm just terrifying for

39:35

people. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, I

39:37

don't want to interrupt this conversation, except

39:39

that I hope we have a chance

39:41

to go back to bowling alone and

39:43

explain and say why it explains

39:46

Trump. Let's fast forward to that

39:48

point. living in a country and the

39:50

world is living in the shadow of

39:52

this country that is experiencing

39:54

levels of polarization and levels

39:57

of vitriol that most people say

39:59

they've never experienced, right? And one of

40:01

the key tenets of this moment is

40:04

that people do not trust the government.

40:06

They don't believe in the government. They

40:08

don't believe that anything can get done.

40:10

They don't believe anything will get done.

40:12

And a lot of people who are

40:14

being elected into government ironically, by the

40:17

way, I always think that's ironic, is

40:19

that those people are being elected into

40:21

government because they say government shouldn't be

40:23

a thing. And we should just dismantle

40:25

it all. And fundamentally, they're saying, like,

40:27

hey, everyone, you just take care of

40:30

yourself. Why does the government do your

40:32

education? You do your education. And why

40:34

does the government do your health care?

40:36

You do your own research. You do

40:38

your own thing. So actually, help us

40:40

understand. How do we go from a

40:43

world where people spend less time? And

40:45

it is crucial to remind everyone. Bowling

40:47

is one of the things. It doesn't

40:49

matter what it is. It could be

40:51

a book club. It could be. Yeah.

40:53

How does America go from having fewer

40:56

clubs to creating the movement that leads

40:58

to Donald Trump? Right. Remember, bowling alone

41:00

said 25 years ago that we were,

41:02

had been for 25, but at that

41:04

point, had been, it had been 25

41:06

years, we've been going downhill in terms

41:09

of our Social connections. Of various stories.

41:11

Anything that brought people together from different

41:13

walks of life to connect across different

41:15

boundaries. That's right. And they've been, that's

41:17

been happening for 25 years. Now 25

41:19

years later, we've gone back and done

41:22

the same study and it turns out

41:24

nothing has changed. It's still going downhill.

41:26

Despite all of my pleading and talking

41:28

with people, it's going down here, which

41:30

now means for 50 years, we've been

41:32

going downhill. Donald Trump did not cause

41:35

that. And this is the main thing

41:37

I want to say I want to

41:39

say here. Donald Trump is not the

41:41

cause of our problems. He's the symptom

41:43

of our problems. American democracy had these

41:45

problems long before Trump appeared on the

41:48

scene. And most importantly, we will have

41:50

those same problems leading to faltering democracy,

41:52

but he's no longer on the scene.

41:54

Donald Trump exploited this. And I mean

41:56

that. So this is Bob. Putnam saying,

41:58

you know, Donald Trump exploited what I

42:01

had discovered. That's not just me. See,

42:03

Bennett has said, I could show you

42:05

the quote. Well, we were trying to

42:07

figure out how we could get down

42:09

from him. But like, and then we

42:11

read this book by this crazy guy

42:14

Putnam about bowling alone. No ways. Are

42:16

you being serious? Yeah, she's quote, you

42:18

can find, I mean, later on on

42:20

camera. And what did they use, I

42:22

don't understand, what did they use from

42:24

your book to help Trump get elected?

42:27

What did, what did they identify? They

42:29

said, effectively, as I said in the

42:31

book, but I wasn't doing it, you

42:33

have all these isolated people, they're ripe

42:35

for having a kind of populist come

42:37

to power and say, you're all unhappy

42:40

and isolated, trust me, I'm the one.

42:42

Does that sound familiar? Does that sound

42:44

like he's the guy? Yeah. Well, that's

42:46

what bowling alone said, and I didn't

42:48

act on it. Maybe I should have.

42:50

Maybe I could have been the president.

42:53

President Bob Putnam. And J.D. Vance has

42:55

said something very similar to this. There's

42:57

lots of empirical evidence. I won't bore

42:59

you with all the data. There's lots

43:01

of data that's saying the strongest predictor,

43:03

actually, of support for Donald Trump, of

43:06

places that support Donald Trump, and people

43:08

that support Donald Trump is social isolation.

43:10

Now we're not just talking hypothetically, oh,

43:12

it would be nice to have more

43:14

people joining clubs. We're saying... The pickle

43:16

that we're in as a country is

43:19

precisely due to the fact that we're

43:21

socially isolated. Yeah. I'm not trying to

43:23

say we ought to reconstruct bullying leaves,

43:25

but it's got to be something that

43:27

brings us space to base. Is that

43:29

making sense? True. You know why it

43:32

makes complete sense is because I think

43:34

of it through a few lenses. Like

43:36

you and I have talked about this

43:38

a bunch. I go, one of the

43:40

things I'm saddest about in America and

43:42

I see around the world is the

43:45

decline of churchesches. Yes. Because I go

43:47

I understand that religion has many issues

43:49

that it's come with whether it's pastors

43:51

Whether it's you know the way they

43:53

treat certain people whatever it might be

43:55

right? But man you take for granted

43:58

what that building did Yes, there are

44:00

very few places in our societies where

44:02

you can come and regardless of the

44:04

language you speak, the color of your

44:06

skin, your socio-economic background, your location, whatever

44:08

it is, you are allowed to join

44:11

and identify as being part of that

44:13

group. And I've always thought that's maybe

44:15

the most important thing is the fact

44:17

that you can become a part of

44:19

it. Do you get what I'm saying?

44:21

That's like really, really important to me.

44:24

And I think about it. I think

44:26

about it. You're also losing the church.

44:28

And the church was the place where

44:30

you saw people to tell them you

44:32

were sick. The church was the place

44:34

where you got a little help. The

44:37

church was the place where you found

44:39

it about a new job listing. You

44:41

know, someone... Oh, music lesson. People learn

44:43

instruments. People learn music. People think about

44:45

how all the greatest singers of like,

44:47

you know, the last whatever many decades

44:50

have all come from church. You know?

44:52

So the training, the connections, the understanding

44:54

that it came from. And it's funny

44:56

that you say that you say that

44:58

you say that you say that you

45:00

say that. When we were still on

45:03

the Daily Show, I remember the thing

45:05

I used to talk to everyone about

45:07

was how Jordan Clepper would say this,

45:09

I'll say to him, he'd go to

45:11

all his Trump rallies. And I said,

45:13

Jordan, what do you, like, what do

45:16

you notice when you have the Trump

45:18

rallies? What do you notice that we

45:20

don't from far? And he said something

45:22

really fascinating to me once. He said,

45:24

a lot of people are there for

45:26

the vibes. And you think about it.

45:29

Donald Trump created many clubs where many

45:31

clubs where clubs didn't didn't didn't exist,

45:33

I'm going to sell you hats that

45:35

you can all wear. We're going to

45:37

sell you little scarves that you can

45:39

all wear. And you're going to come

45:42

into a room. And then you know

45:44

what? We're all going to hang out

45:46

and chant this. You know when I

45:48

knew that Trump, by the way, Bob

45:50

had reached the pinnacle of understanding this,

45:52

is when he was at a political

45:55

rally, right? People are there ostensibly to

45:57

hear about your plan for the future

45:59

of the country and how you plan

46:01

to run the economy. And Trump was

46:03

just like, let's just dance. Let's just

46:06

dance. Do you remember that moment? I

46:08

don't remember that particular one. You don't

46:10

remember that moment? Yeah, sure. I do.

46:12

This was one of... Remember watching that

46:14

moment going, this man is either, he's

46:16

completely lost it, or he has a

46:19

savant who's completely understood it. And now

46:21

I think he's the latter. Yeah. Donald

46:23

Trump. I thought he was a former.

46:25

Yeah, Donald Trump realized in that moment.

46:27

He's like, man, you guys don't, you're

46:29

not here because of like what I'm

46:32

going to do with the economy or

46:34

not do with the, you just came

46:36

here to hang out and we're in

46:38

a club and everyone in that club

46:40

says the same thing, we've been forgotten.

46:42

So there's a man who grew up

46:45

in a town where the factory was

46:47

shut down and that was a piece

46:49

of his club. So he's forgotten. There's

46:51

somebody else who grew up in another

46:53

city and because that city has lost

46:55

its population the church died and now

46:58

they don't have a church so they've

47:00

been forgotten. That's right. Someone's kids left

47:02

to go to a big city so

47:04

now they don't have that they've been

47:06

forgotten. And it's just a bunch of

47:08

forgotten people who are now seen. They

47:11

come together and you go you when

47:13

you go home watch the video. I

47:15

promise you it is one of the

47:17

most amazing things. Trump literally just goes

47:19

like you're just playing my playlist. You're

47:21

just playing my playlist. You're just playing

47:24

my playlist. He'll just playing my playlist.

47:26

He's some person who rolls with some

47:28

person who rolls with them. and they

47:30

just play all of his favorite and

47:32

I'm talking everything from YMCA to Ave

47:34

Maria like it's the most eclectic mix

47:37

of music and he just dances. Don't

47:39

go anywhere because we got more what

47:41

now after this? So Trevor my question

47:43

is this like you've hit on something

47:45

with this trump thing how do we

47:47

guarantee in this crazy world we live

47:50

in that people don't start clubs of

47:52

hate? Which I think what trumpet as

47:54

much? That's a good question, I mean,

47:56

it's just like, because that's then my

47:58

concern, right? Because the Cooklex Clan is

48:00

definitely a club. It's a local club.

48:03

It's a local club membership. Yeah, they

48:05

care of each other. uniforms. Yeah. It's

48:07

just like, how do we, in this

48:09

like very polarized moment, where all sides

48:11

seem to have deep resentment for each

48:13

other, how do we make sure these

48:16

clubs don't become spaces? Or is that

48:18

even necessary? Well, yes, I think it

48:20

is necessary. There are different kinds of

48:22

social capital, different kinds of networks, and

48:24

one important distinction is between what I

48:26

call bridging social capital, that is ties

48:29

that link you to people unlike yourself,

48:31

and bonding social capital. Bonding social capital

48:33

are the ties that link you to

48:35

people just like yourself. So my bonding

48:37

social capital are my friends with other

48:39

elderly, white, male, Jewish professors. That's my

48:42

bonding social capital. And my bridging social

48:44

capital are my ties to people of

48:46

a generation. I have a little bit

48:48

of bridging that I rely on heavily

48:50

across generations because I've got my grandchildren.

48:52

And I'm not saying this is important

48:55

bridging good bonding bad because if you

48:57

get sick the people who bring your

48:59

chicken soup are likely to affect your

49:01

bonding social. capital. That's a little bit

49:03

what Christina was earlier saying, the people

49:05

who would really take care of her,

49:08

who would bring her chicken soup or

49:10

the equivalent would be bonding social capital.

49:12

I'm saying bonding social capital is not

49:14

necessarily bad, but bridging social capital is

49:16

crucial for a modern diverse society like

49:18

ours. Bridging across racial, across age, across

49:21

gender, across party and so on. So

49:23

far, so good. Right, right, right. But

49:25

Bridging is harder to build in a

49:27

bonding social capital. My grandmother knew that.

49:29

My grandmother said to me, Bobby, birds

49:31

of a feather flock together. Right. She

49:34

didn't think I'd understand. What she met

49:36

was, Bobby, bridging social capital is harder

49:38

to build in bonding social capital, but

49:40

she didn't think I'd understand that, which

49:42

is why she used the avian metaphor

49:44

about birds. But that's the basic point.

49:47

So here's the challenge. Much of Trump's...

49:49

support. It draws from different kinds of

49:51

demographic groups, of course, but it's bonded

49:53

heavily on politics and not bridging at

49:55

all. And so now I'm back at

49:57

the question, why doesn't Putnam saying he

50:00

wants a lot? of Kukkakas plan. And

50:02

the answer is I don't want lots

50:04

of Kukas plan because it's bonding and

50:06

I want a lot of more bridging.

50:08

Does that make sense to what I'm

50:10

saying? That makes sense. And I want

50:13

to know how to do it. Well,

50:15

but I'm actually going to throw this

50:17

before we move on. I'm going to

50:19

throw something out here. Maybe controversial. I

50:21

would argue the reason the Democrats didn't

50:23

do as well in this election is

50:26

because they were bonding. Right? Barack Obama

50:28

was going, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey,

50:30

hey, hey, I don't care if you're

50:32

in Kentucky. Let's connect, let's connect, let's

50:34

connect. Yeah. Do you have this issue?

50:36

I have this issue. This is something

50:39

I grew up with. You grew up,

50:41

my grandmother looks like you, my mother

50:43

looks like you, my father looks like

50:45

you, my father looked like that, my

50:47

father looked like that, my this, I

50:49

grew up in this world, he was

50:52

briding, he's got to be, yes, right,

50:54

right, right? Yeah, right, right, right, right,

50:56

right, right, right, right, yeah. And so.

50:58

as much as it's easy for everyone

51:00

to be like Donald Trump and blah

51:02

blah you know and we're all guilty

51:05

of that but I think of like

51:07

the democrats in this election a lot

51:09

of it was very much like you

51:11

know like oh you know white men

51:13

are this and the rich have done

51:15

that and and it became bonding that

51:18

way as opposed to the coalition of

51:20

saying like Bernie even did well by

51:22

the way when he was running he

51:24

did a lot of bridging like you

51:26

know hey let's all join we're all

51:28

struggling let's all come together struggling people

51:31

we all deserve health care you all

51:33

doesn't matter where you're from bridge bridge

51:35

bridge and I think in this election

51:37

in particular there was a lot of

51:39

bonding from both parties and as crazy

51:41

as this may sound to a lot

51:44

of people I think Donald Trump engaged

51:46

in a little more bridging Then people

51:48

will give him credit for which I

51:50

think is why he connected more than

51:52

people thought he would in some spaces

51:54

I want to know what Bob thinks

51:57

of that So this is sorry I

51:59

you didn't invite me on here to

52:01

cite all my books, but I'm going

52:03

to cite yet another book That's exactly

52:05

why we invited you on your expert

52:07

Okay, I want to talk about the

52:10

growing gap between rich folks and poor

52:12

folks in America And the book was

52:14

called Our Kids, and the book was

52:16

focused on a whole series of charts

52:18

and graphs that showed the gap between

52:20

rich kids and poor kids growing. And

52:23

I'll say more about what I meant

52:25

by that, but in particular, by rich,

52:27

I didn't mean literally having lots of

52:29

money. The book is based on the

52:31

upper third of American society, which is

52:34

basically college educated folks. And the lower

52:36

two-thirds of America, which is basically people

52:38

who didn't... graduate from four years of

52:40

college. And what that book showed is

52:42

a growing gap also among their parents.

52:44

Those two groups are increasingly, they don't

52:47

marry one another, used to be that

52:49

there were people would marry across these

52:51

class lines, but they don't now. They

52:53

used to be that they would live

52:55

in the same neighborhood, but we're increasingly

52:57

living in not racially segregated, but class

53:00

segregated homes. And what I'm trying to

53:02

say is that class lens. was when

53:04

I wrote the book at least as

53:06

important as the racial lens. And it's

53:08

becoming, relatively speaking, the class lens is

53:10

becoming more important relative to the racial

53:13

lens. The plight facing working class whites

53:15

is the same as the plight facing

53:17

working class blacks. That's what Bernie Sanders

53:19

noticed. He was talking about everybody. not

53:21

at the bottom meaning the poorest of

53:23

the poor but the lower two-thirds of

53:26

the country. Right. And I think that

53:28

the Democratic Party, this may be controversial,

53:30

I think the Democratic Party has got

53:32

to start focusing more on those class

53:34

differences and less exclusively on the racial

53:36

or other identity issues. Now it sounds

53:39

like I'm saying let's forget about... black

53:41

folks and I'm not saying that. I'm

53:43

saying let's really focus on working class

53:45

black folks because they're the ones who

53:47

are falling further and further behind. Yeah,

53:49

to follow up on. that they um

53:52

because a lot has been said about

53:54

black male increasing vote for Republican. They

53:56

actually split the vote and they look

53:58

at the black male vote specifically and

54:00

the black men most likely to joke

54:02

vote for Trump when non-college educated and

54:05

unchurched. Whereas, unchurched, that was the key.

54:07

They were secular up to a high

54:09

school diploma. Yeah, yeah. Black young black

54:11

men. That's the group most likely to

54:13

vote for Trump. The black men that

54:15

voted Democrat are college educated. 10 to

54:18

10 church professionals. And that's where, and

54:20

they vote at similar levels for Democrats

54:22

as black women do in general. So

54:24

that group that's actually splitting off from

54:26

the Democratic Party is like the most

54:28

oppressed class among black people. I almost

54:31

want to know what you think the

54:33

future will be because I remember speaking,

54:35

I forget who this person was. It

54:37

was such a wonderful conversation we had

54:39

in one of my first times going

54:41

to London and I was talking to

54:44

them about living in America and I

54:46

was talking to them about coming from

54:48

South Africa and everything. And this woman

54:50

said to me, she said, oh darling,

54:52

she said, I can't wait for South

54:54

Africa and America to get over race

54:57

because then they'll realize that everything's all

54:59

about class baby, it's all about class.

55:01

And it really was an interesting idea

55:03

which has stuck with me because I

55:05

go like, yeah. The most class is

55:07

society ever. No, yeah. No, but what

55:10

I liked about it was this. is

55:12

she forced me to hone in on

55:14

something that I think people do take

55:16

for granted. Yeah. Oftentimes when we talk

55:18

about issues that are like pertaining to

55:20

black people, you be like, oh black

55:23

people have it, that has just become

55:25

an easy identifier for a class issue,

55:27

right? And that's why people like, that's

55:29

why people like Dr. Martin Luther King,

55:31

like, MLK was like, yo, I'm fighting

55:33

for class, I'm fighting for class, Black

55:36

people are disproportionately affected by it. But

55:38

that's why like even the Black Panther

55:40

Party, they found a coalition between white

55:42

people who were proudly racist. and black

55:44

people who were militantly fighting against racism,

55:46

but they were like, oh. Union jobs.

55:49

Yeah, the guy was like, hey man,

55:51

we should all come together because we're

55:53

all being affected by this. And in

55:55

all of these cases, by the way,

55:57

they formed clubs. The Black Panthers formed

55:59

a mini club that wasn't the Black

56:02

Panthers, that involved all of these poor

56:04

people. Dr. Martin Luther King, he formed

56:06

multiple clubs and chapters and all of

56:08

these organizations. And it's interesting to see

56:10

what you're saying. And so now, let

56:12

me ask you this then. So do

56:15

you think, say the people who are

56:17

in the bottom two thirds, are they

56:19

more likely to be negatively affected by

56:21

not having a social club? Yes. And

56:23

they're certainly much more likely to be

56:25

socially isolated. I mean, they've got at

56:28

least two strikes against them. Well, maybe

56:30

three. A, they're more socially isolated. Okay.

56:32

And B, they're poorer financially. And C,

56:34

they have got less education. So all

56:36

that those folks are in a pickle.

56:38

And what that means is it's important

56:41

to just understand the math. This is

56:43

simple, simple arithmeticic. We could have a

56:45

clean system here in which we had

56:47

all the colleges to be educated people,

56:49

you know, vote for the Democrats and

56:51

all the non-college educated people vote for

56:54

the. Republicans, what's wrong with that? Well,

56:56

there are a lot more of them

56:58

than of us. We the Democrats, if

57:00

we're going to retain power democratically, we've

57:02

got to begin appealing, not ignoring race,

57:04

I'm not saying that, but appealing more

57:07

to the class-based interests. I want to

57:09

try to end with three to-does. Oh,

57:11

yeah, that's great, because that's what Christina

57:13

was asking for. What were you going

57:15

to ask? Because then you can say

57:17

it and then he'll... I was asking

57:20

for my homework. The cadoo. Okay. Great.

57:22

So the what now? The what now?

57:24

Bob Pucknam. I'm going to try to

57:26

keep it simple. Not... not because you

57:28

guys couldn't understand something more complicated, but

57:30

because I think we've got to understand

57:33

in very simple terms. One, go young.

57:35

It's much more important that we focus

57:37

on young people, regardless of where they

57:39

are right now, because they are the

57:41

future. And I'm now talking as an

57:43

historian, looking back, not just over the

57:46

last, you know. five, ten, twenty, fifty

57:48

years. I'm looking over the last 125

57:50

years in my last book, which was

57:52

called The Upsway. I looked over the

57:54

whole of American history over the last

57:56

125 years. And big changes are not

57:59

the creation of old guys like me.

58:01

Old guys like me, sometimes we've been

58:03

around so long that we understand that

58:05

it doesn't have to be the way

58:07

it is today. But we're not the

58:09

people who have the ideas that will

58:12

work to build social capital and save

58:14

America in the, I don't know, So

58:16

first thing is go young and inspire

58:18

the young people to come up with

58:20

the new bowling leagues. It's not going

58:22

to be bowling leagues. It's going to

58:25

be something else, but almost surely will

58:27

involve something of high tech, but it

58:29

will involve real personal relations with other

58:31

people. Before you move on, a perfect

58:33

example of that for me was Pokemon

58:35

Go. So. I'm assuming neither of you

58:38

played it, but I was a huge

58:40

Pokemon Go fan. Huge, huge, huge. I

58:42

think this was the best execution of

58:44

a video game in the modern age

58:46

because it was a video game that

58:48

everyone played it. It was on your

58:51

phones, right? And the goal was to

58:53

catch Pokemon. You don't need to know

58:55

what any of this is. Just think

58:57

of a game where you're trying to

58:59

catch little creatures. But what they did

59:01

that was amazing was amazing was you

59:04

had to catch the creatures in the

59:06

real world. And you would literally have

59:08

to run out into the streets to

59:10

catch these digital creatures. And so at

59:12

first it was just like, oh, this

59:15

is silly and this is fun. But

59:17

I will never forget the joy I

59:19

experienced when one night I was in

59:21

New York and I was running with

59:23

a group of people in Central Park.

59:25

Stranger. at 1130 p.m. because someone had

59:28

tweeted and told us that there was

59:30

a snorlex which is one of the

59:32

creatures there was a snorlex in Central

59:34

Park and Bob and Christiana when I

59:36

tell you there were if I was

59:38

just to estimate there were like maybe

59:41

500 people from like from like little

59:43

kids who had dragged their parents out

59:45

of the house all the way through

59:47

to like adults who obtained the game

59:49

running and I remember at one point

59:51

one of the kids turned looked at

59:54

me well because we're all running because

59:56

there's a time limit you don't know

59:58

how long the creature will be there

1:00:00

for so we're all running through Central

1:00:02

Park together and one of the kid

1:00:04

turns turns looks at me this kid's

1:00:07

like maybe like 1415 and he looks

1:00:09

at me and he's like he's like

1:00:11

Trevor He's like, you play Pokemon Girl!

1:00:13

And he's like, no, I know I'm

1:00:15

in the right place! What I loved

1:00:17

about it was, to what you're saying,

1:00:20

it was the perfect combination. It wasn't

1:00:22

the either-all. We were all playing a

1:00:24

digital game. It was the alloy. It

1:00:26

was the alloy. You could play the

1:00:28

game at home, and we were playing

1:00:30

it at home, but you could not

1:00:33

help but bump into other people who

1:00:35

were playing the game as well in

1:00:37

the real world. And it was such

1:00:39

a beautiful. All everyone could do now

1:00:41

is talk. Where are you from? Hey,

1:00:43

where do you live? Where did you

1:00:46

cut? What's the best one you've caught?

1:00:48

What have you? And this was like,

1:00:50

the game won awards, by the way,

1:00:52

even for getting people fit and running

1:00:54

and moving it. But I love that.

1:00:56

So when you say the going young

1:00:59

and figuring out the hybrid, I think

1:01:01

there are ways to do it. Because

1:01:03

some people be like, oh, I don't

1:01:05

know if you can. I think we

1:01:07

actually have seen one of one of

1:01:09

the ways and I know because I

1:01:12

know because I know because I played

1:01:14

it because I played it because I

1:01:16

played it because I played it. But

1:01:18

yes, because I played it. But yes,

1:01:20

because I played it. But yes, because

1:01:22

I played it. But yes, but yes,

1:01:25

but yes, but yes, but yes, but

1:01:27

yes, but yes, but yes, but yes,

1:01:29

but yes, but yes, but yes, okay,

1:01:31

okay. So what's, okay. So what's, what's,

1:01:33

what's, Go local. All

1:01:35

the times that there have been

1:01:38

major social revolutions, they bubbled up

1:01:40

from the bottom. And at local

1:01:42

levels, people can more easily cooperate

1:01:45

across party and other lines because

1:01:47

somebody's got to fix the sewers.

1:01:50

And so you don't have to

1:01:52

have an ideological discussion about how

1:01:54

important is the environment. Everybody knows

1:01:57

that the sewers got to be...

1:01:59

fixed if we're going to be

1:02:02

able to survive in this town

1:02:04

or the schools. You know, you can

1:02:06

have a national debate about,

1:02:09

I don't know, some issue

1:02:11

in education, but somebody's got

1:02:13

to fix our schools right

1:02:16

here. And so sometimes left-wingers

1:02:18

are in favor of

1:02:20

national solutions and for

1:02:22

race. We did have to go national

1:02:24

because there were whole regions of the

1:02:27

country which were, if we went local,

1:02:29

we would have stayed segregated forever. So

1:02:31

I'm not saying always go local, but

1:02:33

if you want to have a major

1:02:35

revolution, and this is exactly what MLK

1:02:37

did, right? He didn't start with his

1:02:39

March on Washington and he started in

1:02:41

in Montgomery. What do you think is

1:02:43

the most important social reform in the

1:02:46

history of America? I'm going to tell

1:02:48

you in just a second. The high

1:02:50

school. When was invented in 1910. God

1:02:52

did not invent the high school. He

1:02:54

was invented initially. And where was the

1:02:56

high school, by high school, I mean

1:02:59

a secondary school that a public high

1:03:01

school that everybody could go to. Yeah,

1:03:03

we'd had private schools, of course, as

1:03:05

like Eaton or whatever, but I'm talking

1:03:07

about public high schools. First place

1:03:09

in the world was in 1910 in flyover

1:03:11

country, in America. It was not

1:03:14

invented in Massachusetts or in Chicago

1:03:16

or in LA or what was

1:03:18

invented in small towns in the middle

1:03:20

of America. And it went. viral

1:03:22

and within 20 years every city

1:03:24

in America every city in town

1:03:26

in America had a high public

1:03:28

high school that's viral 20 years

1:03:31

it went from that's amazing so

1:03:33

what I'm trying to say is the really

1:03:35

good ideas policy ideas the next time

1:03:37

they spread and thirdly and I'm gonna

1:03:40

come back now to this is your

1:03:42

religion go morality Stick

1:03:45

with me. I'm an academic, but

1:03:47

I'm about to start preaching at

1:03:49

you both of you I I

1:03:52

apologize for that when

1:03:54

we look at Long run changes

1:03:56

Long run changes in

1:03:59

political poll in economic inequality, in

1:04:01

connections and so on. The leading

1:04:03

indicator, it turns out that people

1:04:05

in a given period and place

1:04:07

actually think they have obligations to

1:04:09

other people. We need to have

1:04:11

a moral reawakening in America. I'm

1:04:13

talking about simple golden rule. Read

1:04:15

the servant on the moment. I

1:04:18

mean, any religion says worry at

1:04:20

least as much about other people

1:04:22

as you do about yourself. Religion

1:04:24

should be a we phenomena, not

1:04:26

an I phenomenon. So if I

1:04:28

had a magic wand, I don't,

1:04:30

but maybe somebody, listen, don't have

1:04:32

a magic wand. I try to

1:04:34

make the magic wand, make young

1:04:36

people, remember young. in localities across

1:04:38

America, think that they have obligations

1:04:41

to other people. Does that make

1:04:43

sense? I mean, that makes complete

1:04:45

sense. And my basic message is,

1:04:47

if we want to fix America,

1:04:49

and I desperately want to fix

1:04:51

America, it's probably not going to

1:04:53

come in my lifetime, but I

1:04:55

want to have it come at

1:04:57

least in my grandchildren's lifetime, and

1:04:59

we got to get about it

1:05:01

now, and that requires mobilizing large

1:05:04

numbers of young people, thinking about

1:05:06

their obligations to other people and

1:05:08

not just about themselves. Sorry, that's

1:05:10

the message. Oh no, I don't

1:05:12

think you have to be sorry.

1:05:14

I think it's given us homework.

1:05:16

So play Pokemon Go. Yes. With

1:05:18

people in your local neighborhood and

1:05:20

help them catch the Pokemon that

1:05:22

they call. Yes. That's essentially because

1:05:24

you're helping each other. And then

1:05:26

when you speak to them, talk

1:05:29

to them about the spiritual awakening.

1:05:31

So you guys are going to

1:05:33

lead this revolution. I'm here. Find

1:05:35

me up. Let me know how

1:05:37

I can enjoy you. Bob, this

1:05:39

has been amazing. Thank you so

1:05:41

much for taking the time. Thank

1:05:43

you, Bob. You know, it's such

1:05:45

a simple idea and unfortunately sometimes

1:05:47

the best. ideas are so simple

1:05:49

that people don't want them. It's

1:05:52

simple but it's hard. Yeah no

1:05:54

but that's what I mean it's

1:05:56

like it's the same we're like

1:05:58

eating healthy it's a simple idea

1:06:00

eat the vegetables and don't eat

1:06:02

things that come in packets and

1:06:04

your body your body changes and

1:06:06

people are like yeah yeah but

1:06:08

I need something more complicated than

1:06:10

that but yeah I want to

1:06:12

say thank you very much thank

1:06:15

you for taking the time with

1:06:17

us and You know, we started

1:06:19

at Robert, we end at Bob.

1:06:21

Thank you very much. It was

1:06:23

wonderful getting to know you. And

1:06:25

I hope you do get to

1:06:27

see some of this in your

1:06:29

lifetime. So don't write it off

1:06:31

yet. You keep talking about you're

1:06:33

going to be gone. Maybe some

1:06:35

of it will change. We'll see.

1:06:38

We'll do our best. Thank you,

1:06:40

Christiana. Thank you. Trevor. Thank you

1:06:42

so much, Bob. Bye. What

1:06:48

Now with Trevanoa is produced

1:06:50

by Spotify Studios in partnership

1:06:52

with Day Zero Productions. The

1:06:54

show is executive produced by

1:06:57

Trevanoa, Sinaz Yamine, and Jody

1:06:59

Avigan. Our senior producer is

1:07:01

Jess Hackle, Claire Slaughter, is

1:07:03

our producer. Music, mixing, and

1:07:05

mastering by Hannis Brown. Thank

1:07:07

you so much for listening.

1:07:09

Join me next Thursday for

1:07:11

another episode of What Now.