0:00

By the way, can I just say,

0:02

if you listen to this podcast

0:04

and you had ideas about Africans,

0:06

what I love about Kaya is,

0:08

he really makes you feel like

0:10

you're talking to an African, yeah?

0:12

Because it's like, what's his name,

0:14

Kaya Jangar? And then he's like,

0:16

then my friend, Olisad Jasjanna, Christian

0:19

to my car and my other

0:21

friend, Unzinga, then someone listening is

0:23

like, oh wow. And what's a

0:25

dull child again? Yeah. Oh, this...

0:27

That's a dull child? A da

0:29

unyabile? Yeah. See what I

0:31

mean? Like, Kaya is full

0:34

on, full on, like, anyone

0:36

listening to this is like,

0:39

yeah, this is, oh my

0:41

God, this is really

0:43

African. This is so

0:46

African right now. I

0:48

should have shown them, like, pictures

0:50

of like me in the village.

0:52

He's a writer, social commentator, social

0:54

media superstar, but most importantly, and

0:57

truly this is the most important.

0:59

He's my friend. We've been friends

1:01

for over 20 years now, and

1:03

Kaya Lange is easily one of

1:05

the smartest, funniest, and interesting human

1:07

beings I know. And so, I

1:10

thought, why not have him on

1:12

the show? I mean, if you're

1:14

gonna have a podcast, you want

1:16

to share the most interesting people,

1:18

right? And that's what today's episode

1:20

is all about. One of my

1:22

favorite people in the entire world.

1:25

Kaya. Clanga. I think you're going

1:27

to enjoy him as much as

1:29

I do, but bad news. He's

1:31

my friend, so you can't

1:34

have him. Oh, and that

1:36

random South African voice you

1:38

hear in the background? That's

1:41

Ryan. South African producer.

1:43

Don't mind him, but

1:45

really you should. This

1:47

is what now? With

1:50

Trevanoa. This episode is

1:52

brought to you by Brooklyn.

1:54

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running.com. get started chatting the

3:49

guy's German this German driver

3:51

so he's speaking is driving us

3:54

and like oh so such

3:56

heading oh what where do you

3:58

work he was for he is

4:01

like as an MD or something

4:03

at Merrill Lynch like a wait

4:05

wait what I know your Uber

4:07

driver our Uber driver was like

4:10

and like was or was was

4:12

current as a time at the

4:14

time yes like a massive executive

4:16

position you know and I was

4:18

like so I was like dude

4:20

what what like explain what's going

4:22

on here and it says no

4:24

you know when I come from

4:26

Germany I decide that in order

4:29

for me to improve my English

4:31

I'm going to become an Uber

4:33

driver you're lying yeah I'm going

4:35

to become an Uber driver and

4:37

then I'm going to Please excuse

4:39

my closer German accent. I've actually

4:41

never heard one before. This is

4:43

really dope. This sounds like a

4:46

new character in the next

4:48

black pants. They have a

4:50

German character. As a strength

4:53

of their black pants. So.

4:55

So this guy. And it's

4:57

what he does now. And in

5:00

order to improve his English. And then

5:02

he says, but what he also found

5:04

was that he got to understand nuances

5:06

about Americans that he got, because he

5:08

was a Uber driver. Yeah, you could

5:10

apply within the, you know, for his

5:12

job. I was like, oh, wow, that

5:15

was for me the most interesting. That

5:17

actually makes sense. Very interesting. I mean,

5:19

I think there's an easier way to do

5:21

it. But I mean, hey, man, kudos to him. Not

5:23

many people. earn money from the English lessons.

5:25

Yeah, okay, you know what I mean?

5:27

Yeah, maybe. That's like a pretty slick

5:29

way to do it. Yeah, it really

5:31

is. I always wanted to be an

5:34

Uber driver. That was my dream. But

5:36

if being a taxi driver, true, yeah,

5:38

but I wanted to be an Uber driver.

5:40

Why? So I love driving. You do. So

5:42

okay, here was the limitation. So

5:44

the limitation of being a taxi

5:46

driver in South Africa is, and

5:49

for those listening, if you don't

5:51

understand. Taxis in South Africa are

5:53

different to taxis in most parts

5:55

of the world in that here when

5:57

we say taxi we mean like a mini

5:59

bus that travels on a

6:01

predetermined route. So for me it felt

6:04

it's a little restrictive. I

6:06

couldn't turn wherever I wanted to

6:08

turn. I couldn't like, you know

6:10

what I mean, I want to be free,

6:12

Kaya. I'm doing my thing, man. Like

6:14

a taxi. So I've always wanted to

6:16

be... My older driver was free, but

6:18

he doesn't take me on it. That's

6:20

who I want to be. I wanted

6:22

to be the guy backing up on

6:24

the highway. No, I don't know why. I

6:27

always wanted to be like... Like

6:29

efficient driving I don't know how to

6:31

explain it, but I I love the

6:33

idea of getting people to the place

6:35

They're supposed to be in the

6:37

best way possible with the least

6:39

stress possible. Oh, okay You know Do

6:42

you like driving? I love driving. One

6:44

of my favorite things to do is

6:46

to drive it's quite far so I

6:48

really do enjoy driving from job work

6:50

to the Eastern Cape by myself You

6:53

know, I thought your answer was

6:55

gonna be no because of how

6:57

many accidents you've had Maybe two.

6:59

Maybe two. Yeah. In fact, the first

7:01

accident I had was a

7:03

taxi driver hit me. Okay. But

7:05

there was, and the second one

7:07

was another taxi driver in Cape

7:09

Town. Bro, how are you for

7:11

getting you crashing into the back

7:14

of Police's car? Fanny. Oh yeah,

7:16

okay, I don't count that. This

7:18

guy only counts accidents that happened

7:20

to him. Yo, right, let me

7:22

tell you what, what Kaya did,

7:24

what Kaya did, right? Kaya had

7:26

just got a car. Your first car

7:29

was a Mercedes-Benz C-Class. This guy

7:31

had never driven in his life.

7:33

How old is he? How old are you

7:35

then? I'm like 31, 32. That's the first

7:37

time you drove. Yes. Okay. This is

7:39

the first time this guy drives. So

7:41

you even had the three accidents

7:44

in half the amount of time.

7:46

That's what you're saying. Basically. I

7:48

made up for it. Just checking.

7:51

So, so, Kaya gets a Mercedes-Benz-C-Class.

7:53

First car. Right. Him. Him and

7:55

Olyssa. They're going to some party somewhere.

7:57

Well, this has also got a brand new

7:59

car Mercedes. Ben's E class. Yeah,

8:02

convertible, convertible. Two of

8:04

them driving together, having

8:06

a good time, music

8:08

going, ladies loving the drive,

8:10

here, good time, good time.

8:12

What happens? Next thing we

8:14

just get a message in the group

8:16

chat, ah guys, we had an accident.

8:19

So like who's we, me and Kaya?

8:21

And we're like, ah, but you guys

8:23

are in different cars. He's like, X

8:26

is like, exactly. Why police, I always

8:28

forget to mention, is the fact that

8:30

he breaks suddenly because he was, there

8:32

was someone in the passenger sit was

8:35

directing and she forgot to tell him,

8:37

no turn, yeah. So you break like.

8:39

Oh, so he slammed the brakes. He

8:41

slammed the brakes. But you went to

8:44

say following this. But also like, okay, the

8:46

car had this tronic, what what? Oh, your

8:48

car. Yeah. Also you trusted the car to

8:50

do the thing. Okay. And it always did,

8:52

but the problem. Can I tell the problem

8:54

one. Yeah. Is that three days before. Three

8:56

days before. It had said. dystonic

8:59

malfunctioning. Take it. I

9:01

should go take it. And I was like,

9:03

I'll take it. I'll take it tomorrow.

9:05

I can say it tomorrow. And then

9:07

I had the accident. So, yeah. And

9:09

then did you take it? Do I? You

9:11

know what I would have done if

9:13

I was you? I would have taken

9:15

it to the dealership and me. Like,

9:18

guys, what happened here? This thing didn't

9:20

stop. I had the dyston iconon and it

9:22

didn't stop. Yeah. So those are my accident. I'm assuming

9:24

the insurance paid out because now you're admitting two things. Yeah,

9:26

I don't know. The insurance paid. Oh, okay. No, but

9:28

I mean, that's still, that's still you insured for. Yeah, I

9:31

mean, try to break, but he was too late to break.

9:33

Yeah, and it's an accident. That's what you get in sword

9:35

for. Yes. And it's an accident. That's what you get in

9:37

sword for. Yeah. And it's an accident. That's what you

9:39

get in sword to break. That's what you get in. But

9:41

he was too late to break. Yeah, that's what you

9:43

get an accident. And it. That's what you get in. And

9:46

it. That's what you get in. And it. And it.

9:48

That's what you get in. And it's what you get in. And

9:50

it. And it's what you get in. And it's what you

9:52

get in sword to get in sword to get in sword

9:54

to get in sword to get in sword to get in

9:56

sword to get in and then fire insurance we saw what

9:58

happened in California yeah where they like started pulling it from

10:00

people, which by the way, I still think is one

10:02

of the greatest scams in life, right, is that

10:04

insurance companies can pull out of a market

10:07

because they're like, we're not making money. And no

10:09

one seems to ask the question, is the purpose

10:11

of your business to make money or to insure

10:13

people? Well, do you get what I'm saying? Yes. And look,

10:15

I know, I know, I know people be like, yeah, but it's

10:17

a business. I'm like, no, no, no, but wait, but wait, but

10:19

wait, but I'm saying, but I'm saying, when we

10:21

start when we start with priority, when we start

10:23

with priority, the first, the first, the first, the

10:25

first, the first, the first thing, the first thing.

10:28

It's interesting to me that

10:31

insurance companies can pull out

10:33

of markets because they're no longer

10:35

going to make money. Yeah, Coke

10:38

doesn't change the recipe if it's

10:40

more expensive to make Coke in

10:42

that area. That's what I mean.

10:44

Continue to make Coke. The job is

10:46

to make money from ensuring people. they

10:48

just go no it's no longer but

10:50

it's gonna remove those clothes now we

10:52

won't make as much money then I'm

10:54

like yeah but you're supposed to insure

10:56

people isn't the purpose of your business

10:59

insurance and also like isn't it like

11:01

it's a bet right because they say

11:03

because the whole thing apparently like I

11:05

remember don't if I saw this already

11:07

somewhere what someone said the purpose of

11:09

insurance the company says right yes I

11:11

bet you your house on catch fire and just

11:13

said I bet you my house will right

11:15

and so what you do is that like

11:17

now you keep you're paying right because as

11:19

long as you don't catch any fire you're

11:21

bet you like I told you I told

11:24

you it's a bet it's not and all

11:26

of a sudden now my house catches fire

11:28

the bet has come right yeah the bet

11:30

has come right now you have to pay

11:32

me because I win Now I have

11:34

a totally different exactly a

11:36

totally different idea now that

11:39

I have that idea. Yeah,

11:41

the next time I claim

11:43

from insurance. Yeah, I told

11:46

you I told you I

11:48

told you I told you

11:50

Yeah, yeah, whose house is

11:53

this? Well, I don't have

11:55

one anymore, but you know

11:57

what I mean? I told you

12:00

describe what insurance is. I feel

12:02

like all, it is a great concept. I

12:04

feel like all, not all, they want to

12:06

be broad. I feel like many businesses

12:08

in America and then it's starting

12:10

to go around the world are now

12:12

less focused on being a good business and

12:15

more focused on making the money. Oh,

12:17

100%. And I know some people would

12:19

say, yeah, but that's what business is

12:21

and I don't agree. I don't think

12:23

that's what business should be. I think

12:25

it can be. the byproduct of doing something

12:27

well. Do you know what I mean? Yeah,

12:29

because like even to what you're saying with

12:32

like Uber drivers and stuff, we love

12:34

to blame the people who are delivering

12:36

the food or driving us around etc.

12:38

But if we're honest about it, this is

12:40

a byproduct of a company that's growing

12:43

at an insanely rapid rate. And so

12:45

then what they all these companies do

12:47

is. they slowly over time reduce the

12:49

qualifications that people need to become a

12:51

driver they so in the beginning I

12:53

remember when like Uber started and all

12:56

these things started it was like oh

12:58

you have to have this and your

13:00

car has to be inspected in a

13:02

certain way now you get into a car

13:04

and you're just like yo man how did

13:07

you get to me exactly no but

13:09

I mean you know I remember the

13:11

first time I don't know if any

13:13

if anyone here remember the first time

13:15

they use an Uber app Yeah, I

13:17

remember the first time, I remember the

13:19

very first time, they were going to

13:21

be launching Uber in South Africa and

13:23

they invited me to the launch, which

13:25

was nice, okay, great. And then, because

13:28

they knew you weren't to drive or

13:30

do we driving, I had a car.

13:32

Okay, you were driving by the stop.

13:34

Yeah. And so my car then happened

13:36

like that week or two, you know,

13:38

happened to go to a service or two

13:40

to a service and then it was like,

13:42

oh, the guy's face. the registration

13:45

the car how fire is this

13:47

was revolutionary to me i was

13:49

like this is incredible and anyway

13:51

he arrived he gets out of the car

13:53

there's only uber blacks at the time and

13:55

they used to open the door for you

13:58

they had water and and that in the

14:00

main, in the back seat, in the

14:02

back seat, and then they close the

14:05

door for you and I was like,

14:07

this is incredible. I was so impressed

14:09

by them. And to such an extent

14:11

that I don't know if you know,

14:14

my friend Unzinger, yeah, yeah, of course,

14:16

yeah. So she sees me being dropped

14:18

off at Cesar, yeah, I'm being dropped

14:21

off, Uber driver comes out, opened the

14:23

door. So when she sees me, she

14:25

says, Kaya, and she genuinely thought this,

14:28

genuinely. She said, Guy, are you a

14:30

spy? And I'm like, so I was

14:32

joking. I said, yeah, I'm a spy.

14:34

I should believe this for the longest

14:37

time. No ways. Uber was so prestigious,

14:39

so pristine that they've taken away all

14:41

the nice things, but the price remains.

14:44

I mean, but that's the business model.

14:46

That's what all these companies have done

14:48

in the, especially from Silicon Valley, right?

14:50

Their business model is, grow as quickly

14:53

as possible. get as much money as

14:55

you can, scale as fast as you

14:57

can, and then most importantly, decimate the

15:00

competition. So you come in, you price

15:02

the product way lower than the rest

15:04

of the market. So that's what they

15:06

did in most markets was they killed

15:09

the taxi prices. So in New York,

15:11

in London, in Germany, and other places

15:13

they did that. Then some cities fought

15:16

back, you know. And then once they

15:18

owned the market, then they start hiking

15:20

the prices. And to make things worse,

15:23

they start throttling the driversdlingling the drivers.

15:25

So now if you drive an Uber,

15:27

there were many people who bought Uber

15:29

because they were promised like, oh if

15:32

I buy the car, I'm going to

15:34

earn this much a year. They used

15:36

to have like guarantees on billboards even.

15:39

They'd say, earn a minimum, guaranteed, a

15:41

minimum of, and I think at the

15:43

time it was like $75, $80,000 a

15:45

year. And then, once they had enough

15:48

capacity and they had a strangle hole

15:50

in the market. Then they started ditching

15:52

drivers, you don't earn as much from

15:55

a ride. Such pricing changes, the riders

15:57

pay more. And now we're all dependent

15:59

on it. And this is why we

16:01

should never allow monopolies to take place.

16:04

You don't like that. It's interesting because

16:06

businesses... always have this grand philosophy about

16:08

why it exists. There's no profit only

16:11

looking at their vision statement as a

16:13

company. No, nothing. But the ultimate reason

16:15

they exist is to make a profit.

16:18

Not really to provide the best service

16:20

that they claim the one to provide.

16:22

Yeah. I think to be fair, many

16:24

of the people who started these companies

16:27

in Silicon Valley, I think believed in

16:29

the beginning that they were setting out

16:31

on a noble mission. I genuinely believe

16:34

that. But it's very hard to beat

16:36

Wall Street. Oh yeah, that's very true.

16:38

As soon as your company is a

16:40

publicly listed company, all you're doing is

16:43

trying to maximize shareholder value and that's

16:45

it. Like your mission is no longer

16:47

to your customers, your mission is to

16:50

the shareholders, right? And so I think

16:52

fundamentally it's like, hey man. I mean,

16:54

it's pretty sad because, you know... There's

16:56

actually there's a flip. Man, what just

16:59

switch of my phone? Yeah, well you

17:01

must switch your phone. You're addicted to

17:03

your phone. There is a great quote.

17:06

You know, switch of your phone. I'm

17:08

glad we brought you here. This is

17:10

actually an intervention. This is not my

17:13

phone is on. I can Google for

17:15

you. This is nothing to do. This

17:17

is nothing to do with. You thought

17:19

this was a podcast. We were just

17:22

hosting an intervention to stop car from

17:24

being on a day. There's

17:26

24 in case you were wondering.

17:29

Okay. I found it. What's the

17:31

quote? The quote is by Carl

17:33

Sagan Let me just go quickly

17:36

Carl Sagan Let me find so

17:38

I don't know if Carl Sagan

17:41

was just like a physicist and

17:43

He says I have a four

17:45

biding of an America in my

17:48

children's or grandchildren's time when the

17:50

United States is a service and

17:53

information economy, when nearly all manufacturing

17:55

industries have slipped away. to other

17:57

industries when all some technological powers

18:00

are in their hands of very

18:02

few and no one representing the

18:05

public interest can even grasp the

18:07

issues. When the people have lost

18:09

their ability to serve their own

18:12

agendas or knowledgeably question those in

18:14

authority. When clutching our crystals and

18:17

nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical

18:19

faculties in decline, unable to distinguish

18:21

between what feels good and what's

18:24

true, we slide almost without noticing

18:26

back into superstitious darkness. The damning

18:29

down of America, so this is

18:31

not just about America, I think

18:33

it's about the whole world, really.

18:36

The damning down of America is

18:38

most evident in the slow decay

18:40

of substantive content. and in the

18:43

enormously influential media, the 30-second soundbite,

18:45

thank goodness your podcast is way

18:48

longer than that, now down to

18:50

10 seconds or less, lowest common

18:52

denominator programming, credulous representations, presentations, or

18:55

pseudoscience and superstitions, but especially of

18:57

a kind of celebration of ignorance.

19:00

So and he wrote this in

19:02

1995. So before we talk about

19:04

the quote, can I just say,

19:07

normally when people say there's a

19:09

quote I love, what they mean

19:12

is like, yeah, it's normally like,

19:14

every dog has his day. That's

19:16

what I thought the quote was

19:19

gonna be. This man just read

19:21

us a chapter and said, you

19:24

know, there's a, there's a quote

19:26

that I love guys. It's called

19:28

Genesis from the Bible. It really

19:31

was. Okay, this is what like,

19:33

like, like, maybe I, I want

19:36

to. never really understood this about

19:38

you because you are a paradox.

19:40

For a person who loves social

19:43

media as much as you do,

19:45

you also love the antithesis of

19:48

social media as much as you

19:50

do. Do you know what I

19:52

mean? Because you've written books and

19:55

you read books, but you also

19:57

have 15 hours of screen time.

20:01

And that's terrible because I don't

20:03

spend as much time reading as I

20:05

used to. Oh, so it's affected you as

20:07

well. Exactly, because I don't read as much

20:09

as I used to and I don't think

20:11

that like reading like little slippers is not,

20:13

I don't, because it doesn't delve into

20:15

the, no, it doesn't matter. It's like, and

20:18

it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like,

20:20

it's the same thing as watching Sunday and

20:22

Tik where you get like, you get like,

20:24

you know, pseudo knowledge. Yeah, you

20:26

know, where you kind of suddenly

20:28

feel like, oh, I'm one informed

20:30

because, well, I found out that

20:33

for the first time that actually

20:35

the planets don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:37

Revolve in one, you know, it's

20:39

an over. But I don't know

20:41

why that happens, but then, you

20:43

know. I was worried when they

20:46

said TikTok was going to be

20:48

banned, but I was happy because

20:50

I thought you would like live

20:52

a new life. I am trying, trying, I

20:54

can take to be actively, to try

20:56

and read more than I did. Okay,

20:59

yeah, that one, I thought you were going

21:01

to say something like, I'm going to use

21:03

social media less. No, no, I definitely want

21:05

to read it a lot. Did you guys

21:07

know by the reason on your phone? Yeah,

21:09

this guy, this guy is, you know when

21:12

you talk about like deeply entrenched

21:14

social media, Kayat Lange, the

21:16

man I'm sitting opposite now, was

21:18

the first African to have... Correct

21:21

me from wrong a million

21:23

views on YouTube. Yeah ever

21:25

guys Before you know before

21:27

we knew what YouTube was

21:29

as a thing this is like

21:32

maybe 2006 2007 Yeah, this

21:34

guy Kyle on YouTube and

21:36

he was loving it and he

21:38

was killing it Yeah, man that

21:40

was and no one why did

21:42

you stop by the way? It?

21:45

Twitter I couldn't put your

21:47

phone down. Also, you know,

21:49

actually, actually, what happened as

21:51

well was that I got

21:54

us to start writing columns

21:56

and so in newspapers,

21:58

yeah, newspapers. Oh, you just also

22:00

made a good idea. Like old school, new

22:03

school, old school. You're like, guys, I'm leaving

22:05

YouTube. Why? There's this new thing called a

22:07

newspaper column. And I have to step into

22:09

it, guys. Kaya, where you going? Guys, it's

22:12

the future. Trust me now. These newspaper columns.

22:14

Ah, I think everyone in the world is

22:16

going to be reading this. But Kai, you've

22:18

got a million people on YouTube, yes. But

22:21

there's 22, 22,000, on the newspaper, who might

22:23

want to hear what I have to hear

22:25

what I have to hear what I have

22:27

to say. What a grand decision! So literally, that's what happened. And

22:29

I was like, oh flip, I have this, because I have

22:31

to have an opinion about something this week, you know, you

22:33

know, and then I, and I was like, I just didn't

22:35

have the time. You know, maybe YouTube wasn't paying you at

22:37

the time. Oh no, they went. Actually, they didn't. Oh

22:40

yeah, there was no money on you. People was paying you. And

22:42

they took a long time for them to pay anyone outside of

22:44

America. Oh, and outside of America. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then,

22:46

yeah. And then, yeah. And then, yeah. And then, yeah. And then,

22:48

yeah. And then, yeah. And then, I came. I came.

22:50

I came. I came. I came. I came. I came.

22:52

I came. I came. I came. I came. I came.

22:54

I came. I came. I came. I came. I came.

22:57

I came. I came. I came. I Steve Chan, who

22:59

was one of the co-founders of Egypt, crazy. So, because

23:01

there was this, because YouTube used to do this thing

23:03

where if. They thought a video was like

23:05

incredible. Yeah, they would put it like on

23:07

the front page. Oh, yeah They used to

23:09

do like a featured video when you were

23:11

on the front page of YouTube It was

23:14

like a thing you would you'd made it

23:16

and I was on the front page and

23:18

I was on the front page and I

23:20

was like Wow wake up. I'm getting all

23:22

the subscribe boom boom boom subscribers. I was

23:24

like what's going on? What's going on?

23:26

What's going on? What's going on? What's going

23:28

on? What's going on? What's going on?

23:30

What's going on? obviously they see you've

23:32

been featured yeah yeah yeah they all start

23:35

mailing you and they want to collaborate and

23:37

it was like this crazy freaking thing and

23:39

then Steve Chan sent me an email saying

23:41

that um you know it's some along the lines

23:43

it's so great to see people from other

23:46

parts of the world contributing to the conversations

23:48

and being creative in very different ways you

23:50

know yeah yeah you're to Americans and we

23:52

love having you here and I've watched like

23:55

a lot of your videos and I was

23:57

like god damn so I sent him an

23:59

email I was like, I responded, well,

24:01

I was like, this is the first

24:03

email I ever got from a billionaire.

24:06

That's all I had to say to

24:08

him. And he's like, ah, he's hardly

24:10

a billionaire. Because I think, I think

24:12

they just sold to Google. I'm not

24:14

sure, but I think, or they were

24:16

about two, but one of the two.

24:19

So I, yeah, it was crazy. Then

24:21

I just got an email from the

24:23

frequency of Chan. Yeah. I like, yeah.

24:25

Yeah, but your life is littered with

24:27

that. If someone was

24:30

to ask me, they'd go like,

24:32

you know, who is Kaya or

24:34

what is it about Kaya that

24:36

fascinates you? Guys, people will always

24:38

speak to Kaya as if they've

24:40

always known you, they'll speak to

24:42

you, like you'll always find yourself

24:44

in a conversation with a stranger.

24:46

And I've always wondered, like, is

24:48

that how your life has always

24:50

been or was that something you

24:52

noticed or something you worked on,

24:54

is it something... I don't think

24:57

there's anything that I noticed until

24:59

people said. So I didn't know

25:01

it was a thing. For example,

25:03

my brother, you know, my late

25:05

brother, he used to say, when

25:07

I was younger and used to

25:09

visit me in Cape Town, I

25:11

lived in Cape Town. He'd say,

25:13

damn it, I hate walking with

25:15

you because... if we're going to

25:17

the mall, let's say we're going

25:19

to Cavite Square when I was

25:22

in Cape Town, and they're like,

25:24

oh God damn it, we're gonna

25:26

have to, you're gonna be stopped

25:28

by people, you're gonna start chatting

25:30

to everybody there and all of

25:32

that. And I didn't know this,

25:34

and do you know when I

25:36

noticed that maybe I do stop

25:38

and talk to a lot of

25:40

people along the way, was when

25:42

I started hanging out a lot

25:44

with Lisa. Because now for the

25:46

first time, I was going to

25:49

want her to wait. That's so

25:51

funny now I was like I

25:53

was like oh flip this is

25:55

what people mean when they say

25:57

that I stop and talk You

25:59

know, you do you stop and

26:01

you speak to everybody and everybody

26:03

speaks to you and I want

26:05

do you think you got it

26:07

from your grandfather because like? Tell

26:09

me a little bit about your

26:11

grandfather because I know I know

26:13

like some of the loose stories

26:16

we've shed here and there but

26:18

like who was your grandfather? Wow.

26:20

My grandfather, his name, if you're

26:22

South African, right? And you're trying

26:24

to give someone a job. Yes.

26:26

And just like, you have to

26:28

read someone's name and it's a

26:30

wife's only job. Yes. My grandfather

26:32

received would get the job. Okay.

26:34

Because his name was Alfred Kaiser

26:36

Boyce. So that's for us. Yeah.

26:38

from my am from my mom

26:41

i know right damn yeah it

26:43

sounds very fancy right no it

26:45

really does see Alfred Kaiser Boyce

26:47

and send in Alfred Kaiser Boyce

26:49

it sounds like a German Uber

26:51

driver actually so damn wait wait

26:53

where did you get where does

26:55

he get that name so he

26:57

got that name from while they

26:59

gave him Alfred Kaiser because he

27:01

went to school So like back

27:03

in, because in the 20s, so

27:05

the school, they gave him the

27:08

white teachers. Yeah, yeah, the same

27:10

way Mandela got Nelson. Nelson, yes.

27:12

Wait, so did your grandfather also,

27:14

of course, Nelson, we know, had,

27:16

Relishla, was his name? Then they

27:18

were like, no, no, you're Nelson,

27:20

buddy. I don't, did your grandfather

27:22

have, do you, as always, I

27:24

always knew him as Alfred, as

27:26

a boy, so you didn't have

27:28

any other name, but, but surely

27:30

he was given another name, when

27:32

he was given another name when

27:35

he was born? have, in fact,

27:37

one of his sisters, her name

27:39

is hilarious. Guneaufo? Guneaufo? Guneaufo? Well,

27:41

basically means the fourth one. Four.

27:43

Her name would be four. Imagine

27:45

your parents calling you just a

27:47

number. First kid. Okay, Stephanie. For

27:49

like for example, like I didn't

27:51

know her name until the funeral.

27:53

Yeah, because you know in the

27:55

village like I say like you

27:57

didn't know older people's names, they

28:00

just didn't know what their names

28:02

were. All they knew was like,

28:04

okay, their grandchild from there and

28:06

that's their name. So when their

28:08

parents sent you, they'd be like,

28:10

um, like they'd never say like,

28:12

you call me like, say, go

28:14

to Patricia's house. They'd say, go

28:16

to Trevor's house and talk to

28:18

Trevor's mom and say, this is

28:20

what I want. I struggle to

28:22

explain this to my, let's say

28:24

my American friends, or let's my

28:27

American friends, or any of my.

28:29

And oftentimes I say it's white

28:31

people. And then they'll go, hey

28:33

Trevor, how you doing? And I'll

28:35

be like, oh, nice to meet

28:37

you, Mr. Johnson, or whatever. And

28:39

they'll be like, oh, come on,

28:41

my name is Brad. And I'm

28:43

like, yes, Mr. Johnson. Yeah. Then

28:45

they get angry. Yeah. Like, hey,

28:47

hey, I'm not, my father was

28:49

Mr. Johnson. And it's hard to

28:51

explain it because where we, where

28:54

we come from. You never referred

28:56

to an older person by their

28:58

name. You didn't even know their

29:00

name. You didn't know everything was

29:02

in relation to so you would

29:04

go. Oh, hello, Kaya's aunt. Oh,

29:06

hello, Kaya's grandmother. Yes. Oh, hey,

29:08

Kaya's father. Yes, how are you

29:10

today? You know, that's so my

29:12

grandfather. He was not the chief

29:14

in the village, just to create

29:16

some of the imagery here for

29:19

you. When Kias is village, I've

29:21

learned now, like some people, you

29:23

know, I have friends now from

29:25

England, because I've moved up in

29:27

the world. And they grew up,

29:29

they grew up in villages as

29:31

well, but it's not village, like

29:33

we need village. All right, so

29:35

when, if you're trying to picture

29:37

village here, if you've watched Black

29:39

Panther, before they go through the

29:41

magical dome that covers Wakanda, you

29:43

know how like... What kind of

29:46

looks but before the spaceship flies

29:48

through that dome this is where

29:50

Kaya grew up. So he's on

29:52

the outside of the dome He's

29:54

on the outside of the dome

29:56

before the technology. Yeah he's with

29:58

like the cows and the sheep

30:00

and like the mudhats yes and

30:02

this is this is how you

30:04

grew up I just want people

30:06

to understand this so when you

30:08

say the village no plumbing no

30:10

plumbing no nothing yeah and all

30:13

of that mudhats yeah okay this

30:15

is so when you say village

30:17

this is the village you mean yeah

30:19

so he was a custodian of all

30:21

the cattle I say around maybe four

30:23

or five villages around us damn and

30:25

so If anyone, like let's say Trevor,

30:27

one of the cows gives birth, you

30:30

had to come and report and say that

30:32

my cow, so and so, it's giving

30:34

birth, and then my father, my grandfather

30:36

registered the cow. So he was the

30:38

DMV of cows. Yes. That's what he

30:40

was. That's what he was. Yeah. So

30:42

register the cow. Yeah. If a cow

30:44

died, you had to come and tell

30:47

him. Yeah, that's a write-off. Yeah. When

30:49

your calls are Rick, you have to

30:51

report it to report it to the

30:53

government to the government as well.

30:55

authority in because he I mean

30:57

cows are worth and now he's controlling

31:00

the wealth of the village if you

31:02

could really that's really powerful yeah so

31:04

he was very powerful and so a

31:06

lot of people come to him for

31:08

you know council for advice and you

31:11

know all sorts of things my home

31:13

was very busy so that's never quite

31:15

because of this is starting to explain

31:17

a little bit yeah now that you're

31:20

saying yeah because And then, I

31:22

mean, cause the dogs in the house

31:24

with a gate and people are scared

31:26

of the dogs. So they'd call my

31:28

name, Kaleh too! Then I'd have to

31:30

freaking get out of the house, go

31:33

open the gate, fetch whoever, you know,

31:35

is... Yes. So when I was walking

31:37

anywhere with my grandparents,

31:40

people would be talking to them.

31:42

and obviously because they want to be seen

31:44

to be nice to the children too. They

31:46

would speak to me as well. And I

31:49

suspect this probably what kind of I gained

31:51

that kind of but also a village is

31:53

like everybody talks to everybody and maybe I

31:55

still have that kind of yeah you do

31:58

you do where it's like okay. Oh, there's

32:00

some and so, I'll say hi, because I

32:02

know them. You don't talk to them for

32:04

a reason. You just talk to people

32:06

for the sake of. Yeah, you just

32:08

talk to them because they're there. Because

32:11

they're there. And I think that's probably

32:13

where I get that from. And maybe

32:15

that's why in like most of my

32:17

books are kind of, I can't help

32:19

but write about the village, which I

32:21

love. Yeah. It's a lot more profound for me

32:24

than on the surface. You know, you know,

32:26

when you go, we greet people. We

32:28

greet people. Just because they're

32:30

there You know, I often think to

32:33

myself one of the things I

32:35

miss most when I'm not in

32:37

South Africa Is the fact that

32:39

we all acknowledge each other. I

32:41

mean even in the smallest ways,

32:43

you know, our greetings are plural

32:46

Yes, you know, you walk into

32:48

a room you greet everybody San

32:50

Bonani. I see all of you. Yes.

32:52

Yes. Yes. You know what I mean?

32:54

Yes. It's muleuen You know that it's

32:57

like for everyone We see all of

32:59

you, you know? And you don't realize

33:01

how beautiful that is as a concept

33:04

until you don't have it, really.

33:06

And you travel the world, and

33:08

in many places, people get into

33:10

an elevator, you know, a lift, and

33:12

they don't greet anybody. And

33:14

people get into a bus.

33:16

Nobody greets anybody. People get into

33:18

the train. In New York, when I first got

33:20

there. I greeted people when I first get on

33:22

the train. I've never seen, you know, like, you

33:24

know, if you want to be a creep, step

33:26

into the subway and then when the doors close,

33:29

be like, hello, hello. Dude, I was such a creep,

33:31

but I didn't know that you're not, you just,

33:33

it's almost frowned upon, you know, and it's such

33:35

a wonderful feeling to be seen. Yeah. It's very

33:37

different. It's almost, you know, when you actually said,

33:39

you know, you know, sign the one, one, I want to one, I

33:41

want to one, I want to, I want to, I want to,

33:43

I want to, I want to, I want to, I want to,

33:45

I want to, I want to, I want to, I want to, I

33:48

want to, I want to, I want to, I want to, I want

33:50

to, I want to, I want to, I actually, I

33:52

don't know if I'm thinking about this, or

33:54

I've seen it, or I've read it somewhere,

33:56

but it's almost like, well, because if I'm

33:59

saying the one... greeting you. Yeah,

34:01

right? Sunnybourne, it sounds like I

34:03

am, because it is me who's saying

34:05

Sunnybourne, so I'm saying we see

34:07

you, right? So it almost feels

34:10

like I'm saying me and my

34:12

ancestors and everybody who comes with

34:14

me sees you. So we're greeting

34:16

you, right? So that's why I

34:18

think what you just said is

34:20

very profound that our greetings are

34:22

plural, right? So it's everybody

34:24

who comes before me also observes

34:27

who you are who you are who you are

34:29

who you are? as a human being. Whereas

34:31

like in the in the in the western culture

34:33

it's starting to creep in well you

34:36

know people are studying not to greet

34:38

and all of that definitely but what

34:40

usually happens so like I'm busy and I

34:42

run into you and I'm asking for directions

34:44

I woke up just so I don't know

34:47

who you are a stranger and I come

34:49

to you and I say and then good

34:51

was you know what book KFC and then

34:53

like and then you all the people love

34:55

doing this to you and they be like Sagobonaput.

34:58

Yeah. And they greet you. Oh, and

35:01

they're like, oh man. Yeah. They are

35:03

really saying that, oh, you didn't greet

35:05

me basically by saying that. They're forcing

35:08

the greeting and then now you come

35:10

down and you have to greet them.

35:12

How are you? I'm fine, fine. Thank

35:14

you. All right. Oh, what did you

35:17

want? Oh, okay, directions to KFC. And

35:19

then they start offering you, you know,

35:21

the direction. They tell you, they don't

35:24

know where it is. So, and I

35:26

think there's something really actually very, very

35:28

profound about that. I think we take

35:30

it for granted because we live here

35:32

and we experience it. But every single

35:35

person, including white people, they're always saying

35:37

when they go overseas and they come

35:39

back to South Africa, they talk about

35:41

how it is they like, you know

35:43

what I mean about South Africa? Yeah.

35:45

Because people don't greet every, like they

35:47

don't greet anywhere else. And here we

35:49

do. I think one of the more

35:51

beautiful aspects of South African culture holistically.

35:53

is that we're a culture of

35:56

seeing people. So a simple

35:58

example I noticed was... three different

36:00

versions of the same thing. When I

36:02

was in India, where I live in

36:04

New York and then I'll come to

36:07

South Africa, it's the way people respond

36:09

to homeless people. In India, people

36:11

either completely ignore a homeless

36:13

person or they do this hand thing

36:15

where they like dismiss them. Like hardcore,

36:18

you know, for me it's hardcore. Obviously,

36:20

it's an Indian thing, so I'm not

36:22

judging it. But it's just like, wow,

36:25

damn, that's hardcore, you know. In New

36:27

York, people won't even look at somebody.

36:29

and asking for money and people

36:31

just walk past they don't they

36:34

don't make eye contact you avoided

36:36

at all costs and it's crazy

36:38

to say this but I found

36:40

myself being really proud of South

36:42

Africa because when I would

36:45

come back after being away for

36:47

long stints I realized how

36:49

like people would look at homeless

36:51

people and greet them Not give

36:53

them money always, I'm not saying

36:55

it's like everyone in here is

36:57

like super altruistic or anything. And

36:59

then the funny thing is they

37:01

would even have a conversation with

37:03

the homeless person. You know, so

37:05

let's say a homeless person will

37:07

come to your window and then

37:09

they'll be like, eh, aloposa, anything,

37:11

anything. Then you'd be like, ah,

37:13

nothing, nothing. I remember once. Yeah,

37:15

this is one of the funniest

37:18

conversations I've ever had. It changed

37:20

how I drive by the way. I think I

37:22

was driving a range rover at

37:24

the time and I get to

37:27

the traffic lights and the guy

37:29

comes to the window. Then he's

37:31

like, hey, hello, boza, hello,

37:33

anything. And I was like, ah,

37:36

nothing, Baba, sorry, nothing, nothing, nothing.

37:38

Then he's like, nothing. I was

37:40

like, no, then he's like, ah,

37:42

you finished it on their car.

37:44

The way he said it, he's

37:46

like, yeah, no, hey, just finish

37:48

on their car now, eh? Yeah,

37:50

hey, I'm sure it's tough now.

37:53

I'm sure, Brian, he just, and

37:55

he, he didn't like judge, he

37:57

didn't fight with me, he didn't

37:59

anything. had like the rest of a conversation

38:01

with me when I drove away maybe it's

38:03

because of like you know I know this is gonna

38:05

sound strange but in a weird way because he saw

38:08

me yeah he reminded me that I have to see

38:10

him oh wow that's very true do you know what

38:12

I mean yeah yeah like he actually reminded

38:14

me that like oh man just because the

38:16

guy is homeless just because the guy's begging

38:18

for money doesn't mean he's not a human

38:20

being you'll be like sorry like sorry like

38:23

I don't have you know and they'll say

38:25

Oh, so next time. They do say that.

38:27

Yeah, so next time. And they're like, and

38:29

they're like, yeah, next time. But like, yeah,

38:31

yeah. Yeah, yeah. They have an acknowledgement of

38:33

the fact that you could also be going

38:35

through something that means you don't necessarily have

38:37

disposable income at this point in time. Yeah,

38:39

yeah. That's very true, actually. Because there's

38:41

actually, I've never experienced that in another

38:44

country. I've never. ever experienced in a

38:46

country where someone asked me for money

38:48

and I don't have and you know

38:50

now it's worse because we're cashless yeah

38:53

yeah but I've never experienced that way I

38:55

go I don't have anything on me

38:57

only in South Africa will a

38:59

person say I know it's fine

39:01

you know what maybe next time

39:03

you'll yeah good luck to you

39:05

my man except for that except

39:07

for me I don't know I

39:09

think I mentioned this to you

39:12

a few days ago There's this

39:14

tweet, right? There's someone who tweeted

39:16

about, the word, the word, the

39:18

intersection, intersection, and the traffic lights

39:20

weren't working, or robots, traffic lights,

39:22

they're not working, and the guy's

39:24

directing traffic, and so it goes to

39:26

the guy, you know, at the front

39:29

of, you know, the guy in front,

39:31

and kind of asking for money, and

39:33

the guy says, so I don't have

39:35

money, what the guy was talking, this,

39:40

He ever put his fingers down

39:43

this guy. And this guy

39:45

tweeted about this experience and

39:47

basically it's like he doesn't

39:49

know what to do because

39:51

this guy just freaking shoved

39:53

his fingers down. Because I

39:55

wasn't giving him money. He

39:57

wasn't giving him money. That

40:02

was like, yeah, that was, I mean, I mean, that never happens, but it

40:04

happens once in a while. But, it's my, it's my favorite, my favorite story,

40:06

it's terrible, the favorite thing I've had this year. What would you do? You

40:08

know, it's one of those things where I, I think I'd drive off, but

40:10

I'm saying, what would you do as it happens though? As it happens, would

40:12

you close your mouth? I would suck so I'd make him uncomfortable, I'd make

40:14

him uncomfortable uncomfortable, uncomfortable, I'd make him uncomfortable, I'd make

40:16

him uncomfortable, uncomfortable, I'd make him uncomfortable, I'd make

40:18

him uncomfortable, I'd make him uncomfortable, I'd make him uncomfortable,

40:20

I'm uncomfortable, I'd make him uncomfortable, I'd make him

40:22

uncomfortable, I'd make him uncomfortable, I'm uncomfortable,

40:24

I'd make him uncomfortable, I'd make him

40:27

uncomfortable, I'd make him uncomfortable, I'm uncomfortable,

40:29

I'd make him uncomfortable, I'm uncomfortable, I'd

40:31

make him uncomfortable, Oh my God. You

40:33

think so? You think so? You think

40:35

so? You really think so? No, no,

40:37

no. That's all you think. This is

40:39

you behind the microphone,

40:41

buddy. At that time, I

40:44

think the first thing I'll

40:46

think about is like, let

40:48

me not swallow. I like, I

40:50

need to fight. the closest garage I

40:52

need to go to I promise that

40:54

I've been thinking about and this sounds

40:56

terrible and elitist but I would be

40:58

thinking like I need to go and

41:00

get mouthwise should I go to my

41:03

doctor I don't know but I think

41:05

no but a random stranger do that

41:07

right that's what I was gonna say

41:09

I was gonna say yeah The fact that

41:11

the person is homeless might be a slight heightening

41:13

of it. Yeah, but I think it's the stranger

41:15

Yeah, but also like it doesn't matter where it's

41:17

a random why I'm saying why would you do

41:19

that? I think it's I think it's more just

41:21

about a strict because I was on a trip

41:23

Even if I was in an airplane and

41:25

someone walked past my row and then

41:28

said to me Excuse me, can I

41:30

have your drink? And I was like,

41:32

no, and while I was still talking,

41:34

I put their fingers in my mouth,

41:36

I don't have the exact same respect.

41:39

I wouldn't, I wouldn't, they wouldn't pull

41:41

their hand out my mouth. I'd be

41:43

like, oh, at least they weren't homeless.

41:45

No. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I

41:47

wouldn't think that's true. It's more, it's

41:50

more, it's more, it's more, it's more,

41:52

like, it's sort of like, like, like,

41:54

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

41:56

like, like, like, like, Is that like, and

41:58

not to get too graphic? But it's funny

42:01

how people will go out, put their

42:03

tongue in a stranger's mouth that

42:05

they've never met. Like they'll go

42:07

to a club or restaurant or

42:10

bar. They'll put their tongue

42:12

in a stranger's mouth that they've

42:14

never met. Right? They will go

42:16

home with that person and then

42:19

put their mouth in other places

42:21

on that person. Okay. But then

42:23

if somebody comes and put their

42:25

fingers in your mouth, because you

42:28

didn't choose it. Yeah. Because I

42:30

don't know, surely you've had

42:32

the strangest fingers in your

42:34

mouth, but technically you have.

42:36

No, but they're not a

42:38

stranger at the time. How long have

42:41

you known them? Maybe a couple of

42:43

hours? You see? You see? So it's

42:45

like, yeah, we had a conversation. It's

42:47

all just in the mind. There was

42:49

consent. Like you said? Yeah, no, it's

42:52

all about consent. So now

42:54

they're like, I'm like, what is

42:56

in their finger can handle? You

42:59

can clip that by the way, and you

43:01

can put it somewhere. For me, the worst

43:03

part of that story would be if I

43:05

liked it. I think that's the best

43:08

part of the story. Or something.

43:10

Why is that the worst part? That would

43:12

be the best part. You'd have to

43:14

tell people that you thought. No, you

43:16

don't have to tell anybody

43:18

that you liked. You liked

43:21

it. But now you know

43:23

which intersection you're driving to

43:25

every single week. Hoping. You

43:27

just be there all the

43:30

time. Your window. Just window

43:32

down, mouth wide open. I

43:34

have no money! We're going

43:36

to continue this conversation right

43:38

after this short break. This

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message is a paid partnership

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44:46

everyone I had ever known in

44:48

my life, you were the only

44:51

person, and I mean the

44:53

only person I knew. who was closely

44:55

following American politics, A,

44:57

before it became, like, let's say, popular

45:00

for lack of a better word, and before

45:02

I went and did the Daily Show. And

45:04

I was watching the Daily Show. Yeah, you were

45:06

watching the Daily Show before I knew what

45:08

the Daily Show even was as a concept.

45:10

Like when I said, I remember when I

45:12

said I'm going to do an episode of

45:14

the Daily Show. You lost. Like, you lost

45:16

your mind. You're like, wow, wow, this is

45:18

so great. And I was like, all right,

45:20

I guess because I had by that time,

45:22

I had appeared on Jay Leno, I appeared

45:24

on Letterman. I had known of those

45:26

more. Yeah. But you were just like the Daily

45:28

Show. Like, when did your passion for

45:31

American history and politics begin?

45:33

Like, why? Because this wasn't a

45:35

thing that's popular in South Africa. Yeah,

45:37

what I mean? It's not like it was a

45:40

trend. It's not like it was a trend.

45:42

a loner, you know, as a child. It still

45:44

doesn't explain in the Kaya. Oh, God. A lot

45:46

of kids, I was alone. You know what I

45:48

did? I played Mario Brothers. You know what I'm

45:50

saying? Like, I didn't sit at home

45:52

and go like, hmm, I wonder what

45:54

Richard Nixon thought before Watergate happened. No,

45:56

I was like Mario Brothers. No, I

45:58

think it's because it was... reading. So

46:00

how do you get to those books?

46:03

I also read a lot, the wind

46:05

and the willows, yeah, little prints,

46:08

Dr. Seuss. What kind of

46:10

child growing up in a village?

46:12

Remember, remember, you, where people

46:14

had pets like cats and

46:16

dogs, you were on a

46:18

first name basis with sheeps

46:20

and cows. Yeah. And I'm

46:22

also going to really get

46:24

into Reagan and Nixon and

46:26

Bill Clinton. Then I had

46:28

to go to the township,

46:30

you know, so like at 13, so and I'm

46:33

living with my mother and then my

46:35

mom kind of starts saying important

46:37

things are really happening in

46:39

this country, like Mandela and

46:41

so she starts, she literally forces

46:43

himself in the newspaper. In fact,

46:46

in my school, like I was

46:48

the only black kid in my class,

46:50

for example, and then in the school

46:52

of about 800 or 900 kids, there

46:54

must have been five six black kids,

46:56

you know, in the school, Did you

46:58

know all of them? In night, the

47:01

black kids. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean,

47:03

at school, yes. Yeah, but I'm saying,

47:05

did you know them? Yeah, yeah. Were

47:07

they male female? There were, I think

47:09

there were both, yeah, just

47:11

developed both genders. Did you,

47:14

did you, did you, did you, did

47:16

anyone try and set you up

47:18

with them? No, I was too

47:20

young. So, so nobody kind of

47:22

tried to do anything at the

47:24

time. So we, yeah. And then. the

47:26

school library because I was always

47:28

in the library there was and

47:31

before the library opened I would

47:33

go and read the newspaper the daily

47:35

dispatch and I just go and

47:37

read and read and read until

47:39

7 o'clock and the school started

47:41

730 and then I'll read the

47:43

newspaper until 730 but Kaya sorry to

47:45

cut you off they're like you could

47:47

barely speak English yes because I

47:50

learned to speak English three years

47:52

before but you were reading everything

47:54

in English This is really

47:56

inspiring to me. I was

47:59

reading this. And then in high

48:01

school, they had like Time Magazine

48:03

and Newsweek and then I'd read.

48:05

So okay, so you go to a new school.

48:07

Yeah, I go to a new school. Okay,

48:09

got it. Okay, I see what happened here.

48:12

So this moves from the village. Yeah,

48:14

in New School. You've learned English

48:16

two years ago. You're in an

48:18

English school. They've got Time

48:20

Magazine. They've got Time Magazine.

48:23

They've got Time Magazine. They've

48:25

got Time Magazine. They've got

48:27

Newsweek. Okay. I like that

48:29

you and like a this

48:31

guy was a full-time adult

48:33

part-time kid essentially And then

48:36

and then they'd have the

48:38

in a newsweek and then

48:40

politics I was like who's this

48:42

Bill Clinton guy? Okay. Oh

48:44

interesting then I'd read about

48:46

him and Hillary Clinton and

48:48

George Bush and and all

48:50

of these guys. I'm like,

48:52

oh, Ross Perro. And I'm

48:54

like, wow, this is fascinating.

48:56

And so then that gets

48:58

me a lot very interested

49:00

in American history. And, um, And

49:03

then I think what also got

49:05

me into it was because the

49:07

OJ Simpson trial happened. And then

49:09

I was fast. I could not

49:11

wait for Newsweek or Time Magazine

49:13

every week and I'd be there

49:16

reading by the trial because they're

49:18

detailed information about this trial. You

49:20

are 13 years old while this

49:22

is happening. Yeah. And so I'm

49:24

reading this case and I'll never forget

49:26

like I got the highest mark for

49:29

an oral in the history of the

49:31

school. thanks to this for me reading

49:33

just randomly reading and I'll tell you

49:35

how this happened so I had the OJ

49:38

Simpson trial was gonna happen and

49:40

then he was acquitted yeah and

49:42

our teacher gives the entire class

49:44

assignment and this and she says

49:47

okay class this is your subject

49:49

a controversial subject whatever you choose everybody

49:51

does the things abortion it is you

49:53

know you know you know it's democracy apart

49:55

you know all of those things right

49:57

and then I go and I speak

50:00

on like the following day I'm the

50:02

first one to speak you know in

50:04

front of the class and I start

50:06

off and I say and I start

50:08

off by reciting what the jury said

50:10

you know the beginners I go with the

50:12

jury find the defendant or

50:14

rental James Simpson not guilty

50:16

of the above entirely whatever

50:18

of the murder of Nicole

50:21

Brown Simpson a human being

50:23

right and then I say it's very

50:25

fascinating to me that White Americans,

50:27

I say this specifically, now remember

50:30

my entire class is white, and

50:32

so on two other black kids

50:35

in the class. And I say,

50:37

it's fascinating to me that white

50:39

people believe, conveniently

50:41

believe that you are innocent

50:43

until proven guilty. Yes. Right.

50:45

But they're so angry that

50:47

OJ Simpson has been found not

50:50

guilty of this. But at the

50:52

same time, why is so important

50:54

for him to be guilty? if

50:56

they believe that you're innocent. You are innocent.

50:58

You are innocent guilty. And I must

51:00

have spoken for a minute and a

51:02

half making that statement when my classmate

51:04

started interjecting asking me questions just like,

51:07

no, but Kay, you can't say that.

51:09

He used to hit, he used to

51:11

hit her and cops would come as

51:13

I guess I understand. That's true. What

51:15

he was doing was terrible. It should

51:17

not be, no one should be hitting

51:19

anybody. It's evil, da da da da

51:21

da. And so, but it doesn't mean that

51:23

he did kill her. According to the

51:26

evidence that was presented and what the

51:28

jury said, they said, he is not

51:30

guilty. So, and the teacher also

51:32

asking me questions, the period ended.

51:34

I didn't finish my oral. So, and I

51:36

thought, oh my goodness, I'm going to

51:38

get zero, because then the next period

51:40

comes, I mean, like, the next day,

51:42

someone else and someone else, and I

51:44

said, miss, I didn't finish my oral.

51:46

So, no, it's fine. And then I got like

51:48

100%. And she said, because. Your subject

51:51

was so controversial that everyone got

51:53

involved that everyone got involved it

51:55

never happened with anybody else and

51:57

it was because I had so

51:59

much specific detailed information that I

52:01

could give everybody answers because I

52:04

was reading this about this trial

52:06

every week. Okay but now do

52:09

you think OJ did it or

52:11

do you still think he was innocent?

52:13

I don't know. I really don't

52:15

know if he did it but the... Yeah

52:18

but what do you think? What do

52:20

I think? I'm not saying you know.

52:22

Because nobody knows. Because I

52:24

understand 13 year old Kyle was

52:26

like this man is innocent. No,

52:28

no, I suspect it. It was

52:31

a 13 year old. I suspect

52:33

it. Parading through the school and

52:35

was like this man is innocent.

52:37

You know, he's the Nelson Mandela

52:39

of football in America. No,

52:41

but I I struggle to think

52:44

that he was he he did it. Okay.

52:46

So you like now based on the

52:48

trial as following at the trial as

52:50

following at the time. I

52:53

struggle. But now, become assuming you've

52:55

watched OJ Made in America? Yeah,

52:57

Made in America. Yeah. Now, when

52:59

I when I watch that, and

53:01

I'm like, hmm, but I don't know

53:03

what that perspective was, right?

53:05

Because someone is saying something

53:07

from a different lens. Yeah,

53:10

right. So they have a

53:12

perspective when they're making that. But

53:14

when I think about 13 year old

53:16

me, I was like, I don't think

53:18

you did it. Okay, so that's

53:20

I've got to American. No, no,

53:22

no, no, yeah, I'm loving it.

53:25

And so that's, that

53:27

actually prompts a question

53:29

that I have for you. This is

53:31

a puzzle that I've been playing

53:34

within my head. Oh, sorry,

53:36

quickly, sorry, don't forget

53:38

your puzzle. But also

53:40

another thing, how I

53:42

learned, this is crazy,

53:45

how I learned which

53:47

city is in its

53:49

state in America. was

53:51

by watching at the

53:53

time it was WWF

53:55

wrestling. Because they would

53:57

say from Austin Texas.

54:00

Michael's and then he's so

54:02

good, from Detroit Michigan, big,

54:04

deadical, diesel. And I was like, oh,

54:06

and I literally learned, oh, okay. But

54:08

I didn't know what was a state.

54:10

I tried to figure out, what is

54:12

the thing they mentioned first and the

54:14

thing they mentioned second? And then

54:16

I figured out, oh, it's a

54:19

state and it's a city and

54:21

it's like, you know what makes

54:23

us more impressive is that you're

54:25

doing this pre-internet. pre-internet and post

54:27

village yeah no it's thoroughly impressive

54:29

okay but here so here's the

54:32

puzzle and i think you you you are

54:34

uniquely positioned to help me

54:36

answer this because i don't

54:38

think we'll figure it out but

54:40

maybe we can we can sort of

54:43

get close to it i was thinking

54:45

the other day oftentimes when

54:47

people exist in the time that

54:49

they're in they are the worst people

54:52

to judge the time that they're

54:54

in right So nobody can

54:56

judge the future because it hasn't

54:58

happened. We can all judge the past

55:00

if we're present. But the people of

55:02

the present are the worst judges of

55:04

the present because they're in it.

55:07

And I think about this with everything

55:09

that has happened in time. So you

55:11

look at World War II. I'm often shocked

55:13

at how most of the world,

55:15

especially the United States, didn't want

55:17

to do anything, even though Hitler

55:19

was on his journey to wipe out

55:22

Jewish people. Do you know what I

55:24

mean? Like it's pretty crazy when you

55:26

read... And then you see American articles

55:28

from back then and they're like, oh

55:30

yeah, you know, we got to let

55:33

Germany be Germany and do their own

55:35

thing and we're not involved in what

55:37

other countries are doing and we

55:39

spoke to Hitler and he said

55:41

it's not that bad. So we're

55:43

moving on and you're just like,

55:45

wait, this was an actual real

55:48

thing and now it seems completely

55:50

obvious. Right. examples throughout

55:52

history, whether it's slavery, whether

55:54

it's, you know, and obviously

55:57

the people fought against at

55:59

the time. But it becomes hindsight

56:01

that gives you a certain

56:04

level of clarity that allows

56:06

you to judge, I think, more

56:08

accurately, but never perfectly, because

56:11

even it will change. And

56:13

so the thing I've been playing

56:15

with recently is, like, if

56:17

you want to talk about

56:19

a master class in branding,

56:21

Trump does the thing that makes

56:24

him look good. I almost think

56:26

that. I don't. But I feel like.

56:28

There are going to be two trumps,

56:30

right? The Trump of the first term

56:32

and the Trump of the second presidency.

56:35

You made me feel like Terminator 1

56:37

and 2. I'm not even joking. I

56:39

don't know why when you said that

56:41

in my head I pictured Terminator 1

56:43

and Terminator 2. Terminator 1 was the

56:46

bad guy. And then Terminator 2 was

56:48

now the good guy. So he's the first

56:50

one. He's like, he is, he didn't think

56:52

I was going to win. I don't think

56:54

he wanted to win. You know,

56:56

to the first time. But now

56:58

he's in this thing, now he's

57:00

the president, okay, great. He has,

57:02

he's unprepared, he has, so, and, but

57:05

now he understands the levers of

57:07

power. He just gets it. I mean,

57:09

I remember reading something about

57:12

what makes great politicians,

57:14

like great politicians are great

57:16

at stagecraft. So they understand

57:19

for them, they understand the

57:21

theater. Yeah, yeah, their actors

57:23

basically that's what it was

57:26

I remember reading someone who

57:28

has someone was describing Mandela

57:30

as a great actor. And and they

57:33

use that example when he walks

57:35

out of the the treason trial

57:37

and when he's found guilty and

57:39

he makes that speech and way

57:41

says Wasn't speech remind me somebody

57:43

my diverse speech? Very famous at the

57:45

end? Yeah, we all know it in

57:48

the room. Come on guys. We all

57:50

know it. You know the guy who

57:52

was going to remind me. I know

57:54

it. Well, he basically is basically

57:56

saying that, well, if you find

57:58

me guilty, yes. There's an ideal

58:01

for which I am prepared.

58:03

It's an ideal I want to

58:05

live for, but if I'm prepared

58:08

to die, it needs to be

58:10

something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But

58:12

anyway, we'll play it. We

58:14

should just play it. Yeah.

58:17

I have changed the idea

58:19

of a democratic and free

58:21

society in which all persons

58:23

will live together in harmony

58:25

and with equal opportunities.

58:28

It is an idea.

58:31

for which I hope

58:33

to live for and

58:36

to see, realize. But

58:38

my lord, if it

58:41

needs be, it is

58:44

an ideal for which

58:46

I am prepared to

58:49

die. And then, when

58:51

he walks out of

58:54

the... He's wearing, you know, the

58:56

last year of the trial, he's

58:58

wearing his course of traditional warrior

59:00

outfit because he knows that it's

59:03

going to come across as defined

59:05

every single picture in the world

59:07

will have him as a guy.

59:10

So it's this kind of just

59:12

a position between like this oppressed

59:14

heroes fighting against his people

59:16

dressed like this. And like, just

59:18

throughout his life. And I think

59:20

that Donald Trump is a natural.

59:23

actor. He's phenomenal. I can't think

59:25

of a single American politician

59:27

in the history of the United States.

59:29

That's better at stagecraft than Trump. No,

59:31

I agree with you. For better or

59:33

worse, but... No, just the stagecraft. One

59:36

of the things I've heard about multiple

59:38

people who've been in Trump's orbit is

59:40

he... In a weird way, Trump is more

59:42

honest about the game of American

59:44

politics than most American politicians are.

59:46

Have you seen when Trump even

59:48

said when he'd be on stage? And he'd

59:50

be like, you know, folks, I can

59:52

do it. They say he's not prejudicial.

59:54

I can be presidential. I can be.

59:56

It's so easy. I can stand yourself.

59:58

Oh, hello everybody. So good to. I

1:00:00

think

1:00:04

it's

1:00:08

because

1:00:11

it's

1:00:14

so honest.

1:00:21

and transparent that they can't believe it's real

1:00:23

I don't know what it is because it's

1:00:25

so because no one does it you know

1:00:27

it's supposed to do that yeah I guess

1:00:29

and then he does it and then it's

1:00:32

like okay and and he likes to be

1:00:34

liked he loves to be like I think

1:00:36

this is number one drug and I think

1:00:38

this is why there's I suppose a lot

1:00:40

of these tech taxi owls have figured

1:00:42

out about him he's like just like

1:00:44

him and then and then everything was

1:00:47

fine Well, I don't know if everything will be

1:00:49

fine. Well, I mean, for you, because here's

1:00:51

the problem, right? Yeah. Here's the problem. The

1:00:53

one problem that I think people will face

1:00:56

with Trump is this. Yes, he likes to

1:00:58

be liked, but if everyone likes him and

1:01:00

all these people have conflicting interests. He

1:01:02

needs an enemy as well. Yeah, but

1:01:04

even so, if everyone likes him. Those

1:01:06

people still have conflicts of interest

1:01:09

for with each other like they

1:01:11

have conflicting interests So now whose

1:01:13

like comes before the other person's

1:01:15

like this people who come and

1:01:17

kiss the ring with Trump and

1:01:19

then Trump is like yeah, the

1:01:21

stupid person came and kissed the

1:01:23

ring They came here. They let

1:01:25

me put my fingers in their

1:01:27

mouth There's no guarantee. But like,

1:01:29

I don't know, I don't know.

1:01:31

This is why I oscillate between

1:01:33

the two thoughts. On the one

1:01:35

hand, I think to myself, Trump

1:01:38

has all of the ingredients to

1:01:40

be a dictator. On the other

1:01:42

hand, I go, his incessant

1:01:44

need to be liked means he

1:01:47

can't be a dictator. Yeah. Because

1:01:49

dictators can sort of operate

1:01:51

outside of the realm of being liked.

1:01:53

Yeah. Do you know what I mean? No,

1:01:55

because you think so? You'll add to something.

1:01:57

You have to act like you like him.

1:02:00

They'll make you take it. Oh

1:02:02

yeah, that's true, you don't mean. But

1:02:04

that's what I'm, no, but that is

1:02:06

what I'm saying. I'm saying there's

1:02:09

two sides, right? You can love being

1:02:11

liked so much, that you have all

1:02:13

the ingredients to be a dictator.

1:02:16

So you go, I'm gonna

1:02:18

create the reality that I

1:02:20

exist in, that means I'm

1:02:22

always, but what I do

1:02:24

know is Americans firmly believe.

1:02:26

And this is something I both

1:02:28

love. and also sometimes find amusing

1:02:30

about America and Americans is they

1:02:33

truly believe it is impossible that

1:02:35

it can happen in their country.

1:02:37

And that's impossible. I mean there

1:02:39

are many countries that didn't

1:02:41

think dictatorships and that can happen.

1:02:43

I mean I think you know speaking

1:02:46

about Trump. I stand to be corrected

1:02:48

on this but I remember reading this

1:02:50

once that like most dictators were voted

1:02:52

in. Yeah there were. People forget that

1:02:54

they didn't. Take power. Yes, they were

1:02:56

voted in. I mean, they just kept

1:02:58

power. Putin was voted in. I mean,

1:03:00

Mugabe was, Mugabe was voted in. You

1:03:03

think of anybody, they were voted in.

1:03:05

What's fascinating to me about him is

1:03:07

that I think, maybe I'm wrong, about

1:03:09

that he likes to be, yes, he

1:03:11

likes to be liked. Yeah. But he

1:03:13

likes to be liked by people, he

1:03:16

disagrees with but respects. Yes, and and

1:03:18

and craves the adoration. But I

1:03:20

think that for him is that

1:03:22

and I think that's like these

1:03:24

tech guys He respects them because

1:03:26

well, they're rich. They're you know,

1:03:28

they're running big companies. I also

1:03:31

think it's oftentimes We forget that

1:03:33

the way we're processing someone or

1:03:35

something is in relation to us and

1:03:37

the us can be anywhere, right? One of

1:03:39

the more eye-opening experiences

1:03:42

I ever had was when I went to

1:03:44

the Middle East And I actually like really got

1:03:46

to spend time there and I was in

1:03:48

Qatar and I was in the UAE so

1:03:50

you know Dubai and Abu Dhabi and I

1:03:52

was in Oman and all these places

1:03:55

and it was amazing to see how

1:03:57

differently people thought about Trump there.

1:03:59

Yeah. Like I. In those places, people

1:04:01

would hate Trump more than

1:04:03

anyone because Trump was like,

1:04:06

I'm doing the Muslim ban, right?

1:04:08

I realized that I had done

1:04:10

what I think a lot of people do.

1:04:12

I had assumed or even believed

1:04:14

that I embodied the offense

1:04:16

that the other person was

1:04:19

experiencing when they themselves weren't.

1:04:21

And you know, we see

1:04:23

this oftentimes in society. where

1:04:25

somebody will be offended on

1:04:28

behalf of others more than

1:04:30

those people themselves are offended.

1:04:32

Right? Like remember when Tom

1:04:34

Hanks's son put out that video

1:04:37

speaking Patois from Jamaica, right? And like

1:04:39

full on and he's like full on

1:04:41

and he's like fluent and he's like

1:04:43

doing it. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1:04:46

yeah, yeah, yeah, what, come do for

1:04:48

it. And he's like, he's like, the

1:04:50

guy's crushing it. Not like what I

1:04:53

just did now, that guy's nailing it.

1:04:55

And then Jamaicans came out and they

1:04:57

were like, they're like, yo, this

1:04:59

boy is completely fluent. He knows

1:05:01

us. Everything he's saying is correct.

1:05:03

Like you guys are offensive. Why don't

1:05:06

you want him to speak Patua? And

1:05:08

they were like, no, but you

1:05:10

guys don't understand what he's doing

1:05:12

is wrong. And Jamaicans are like,

1:05:14

no. There's also a lot of

1:05:16

white Jamaicans. Yes. Yeah. That's just

1:05:18

how Jamaican speak. Yes. Yeah. For

1:05:20

me learning the lesson was actually

1:05:23

that with Trump. then

1:05:25

the people in the actual Middle East

1:05:27

who I was, and I didn't speak

1:05:29

to everyone, obviously, but I spoke to

1:05:31

a lot of people about this, and

1:05:33

I was really shocked at how they saw

1:05:35

it differently. There was a man in, I

1:05:38

think we were in Qatar who said this

1:05:40

to me, really, like, you know, he said

1:05:42

it and it shook me in the right

1:05:44

way. We're arguing about Trump and Presidents and

1:05:46

all of this and all of this and all

1:05:49

of this, and all of this, and I was

1:05:51

like, yeah, but, but, and then he said, he

1:05:53

said, he said, I think, I think, Sometimes

1:05:55

maybe you are making mistakes. You

1:05:57

see, in America, people are worried

1:05:59

about... whether the politician was

1:06:01

polite. They're worried about the

1:06:03

Trump, maybe saying it the wrong way and

1:06:06

saying, he says, I don't worry about it.

1:06:08

So they worry about what you're doing.

1:06:10

He says, because look, my friend,

1:06:12

George Bush was very polite, but look

1:06:14

at my region. He said, look at

1:06:16

what George Bush and his politeness did

1:06:18

to my region. So if you're

1:06:20

going to bring me somebody who

1:06:23

is rude, but they're not going to

1:06:25

bomb the Middle East, I will take that.

1:06:27

And I was like. Do you do you know

1:06:29

I mean? It was like a I think

1:06:31

like like Trump does make

1:06:33

you question what is more important

1:06:36

and it's not that it is

1:06:38

a binary. Yeah, but is it

1:06:40

is it the Is it how is it how

1:06:42

you present the thing or is it

1:06:45

what you actually do? Yeah, I

1:06:47

think it's you know, so if you

1:06:49

like to go back to the like,

1:06:51

you know, a homeless person asking for

1:06:54

money, what is better? To smile

1:06:56

at them and tell them you don't

1:06:58

have money or to take money and

1:07:00

throw it at them And I know

1:07:02

people be like no, but neither one

1:07:05

or no, but I'm saying like if

1:07:07

There were only two options which one

1:07:09

would you choose? Would you choose that

1:07:11

somebody? Smiles and says I don't have

1:07:14

money and walks away. It's very kind

1:07:16

or nice or would another person comes

1:07:18

with a lot of cash throws it

1:07:20

at the homeless person and then

1:07:22

walks away? Hmm Yeah Do you

1:07:25

mean by the homeless person? That is

1:07:27

funny. There's a verse in the Bible.

1:07:29

Yeah. Parable. Jesus. Jesus talks

1:07:31

about a son. Jesus Christ.

1:07:33

Jesus Christ. Okay, just checking.

1:07:36

Just checking. Just checking. So

1:07:38

Jesus talks about, I forget the

1:07:40

exact parable, but what he says

1:07:42

in this parable is, the father

1:07:44

asked a son to do something, right?

1:07:47

Right. And then the son's like, no,

1:07:49

I'm not going to do it. It's rude

1:07:51

to his father. Yeah. Ask another son and

1:07:53

the son says yes I'll do it. This

1:07:55

polite son doesn't do the thing. The son who

1:07:58

has not polite said is not gonna. do

1:08:00

the thing. Doesn't think that

1:08:02

the father asked him to.

1:08:04

Okay. Right. So it feels like

1:08:07

and then it seems like

1:08:09

then Jesus kind of praises

1:08:11

the son who said I

1:08:13

wouldn't do it but he did

1:08:15

it but does does a thing.

1:08:17

So Again, it feels like

1:08:19

that parable. Oh, so then Jesus

1:08:22

ran, Jesus disagrees with you, just

1:08:24

so you met. The JN Donald

1:08:27

J Trump is. Yeah. Oh, Jesus

1:08:29

disagrees with you. Donald Jesus Trump.

1:08:31

Don't go anywhere, because we got

1:08:34

more what now, after this. By

1:08:43

the way, you've started going to

1:08:45

church now, right? Yes, yes, yes,

1:08:47

yes. Like why? I would love to know

1:08:49

why. So, wow. First of all, because

1:08:52

I assumed that you weren't religious,

1:08:54

because of all the years that I've

1:08:56

known here, and then now you like

1:08:58

go to church. Yes. So, well, as

1:09:00

you know, I lost my mother last

1:09:02

year, so which was like, like I

1:09:04

was saying now, it's in two days

1:09:06

time, it's gonna be exactly

1:09:08

a year. How old was your mom when

1:09:10

she passed? She was, uh, she just

1:09:13

turned 70. So she just, yeah. I

1:09:15

mean, it's not young, but that's

1:09:17

young. Like, I, especially considering

1:09:20

how she was, you know, she was

1:09:22

super active and, you know, so then

1:09:24

I'll never, I mean, I remember driving,

1:09:26

you know, to the funeral

1:09:28

with my sisters. So then in

1:09:30

the car at the back and

1:09:32

I'm driving and I'm leading the

1:09:34

funeral procession to the church and

1:09:37

I said to them. Guys and you

1:09:39

know that thing I don't know how to call

1:09:41

it, but the thing that you get lumping

1:09:43

yourself You feel like I'm just and I'm

1:09:45

trying to not cry as I'm talking to

1:09:47

my sister. Yeah, and I says guys I'm

1:09:49

not gonna talk I'm not gonna speak of

1:09:52

the funeral I know I'm supposed to but

1:09:54

I'm I'm not gonna do it. I I can feel

1:09:56

I won't be able to do it. Damn

1:09:58

I'm in front of the church. It's going

1:10:00

to be impossible. And they're like,

1:10:02

no, you can't do that. You

1:10:04

know, she would have wanted you

1:10:07

to like you. And I was

1:10:09

like, guys, because you and your

1:10:11

mom were close. Yeah. And then

1:10:13

I'm like, I can't. I can't, I

1:10:15

can't, you know. So then we get

1:10:18

to the church and they like to

1:10:20

prong you right in front of the

1:10:22

freaking coffin. Yeah. So now I'm like,

1:10:25

oh my God, this thing is right

1:10:27

here and it's more real. But

1:10:29

then there's women that what

1:10:31

my mom went to church with.

1:10:33

They celebrate her singing, they're like

1:10:36

just singing, like, you know, and

1:10:38

they keep coming, they come looking

1:10:40

at me. There's this old woman,

1:10:42

she's 93 or 94, old and

1:10:45

tiny, she's really, I know, not

1:10:47

many people are smaller than me,

1:10:49

but she was like, really, and

1:10:51

she keeps going like this and

1:10:53

she's singing, and they're so

1:10:56

joyous. And then I got up

1:10:58

and I joined them and I started

1:11:00

singing and every single time and I

1:11:02

felt this I think I almost

1:11:04

felt her presence my mother's

1:11:07

presence and I felt like

1:11:09

God's presence and I was like wow

1:11:11

at that moment I was feeling

1:11:13

so broken and weak and unable

1:11:15

I was like wow I know I can speak now

1:11:17

I know I can speak now I can

1:11:20

speak and I know I can speak now

1:11:22

I know I can speak and I can speak

1:11:24

and I got up and In fact,

1:11:26

I didn't even make the speech

1:11:28

that I'd prepared in my

1:11:30

mind. I literally got up and

1:11:33

sang. and which I would

1:11:35

never do in public and

1:11:37

I urge anybody not to

1:11:40

hear, try to hear you

1:11:42

singing in public and I

1:11:44

started singing. What did you

1:11:47

sing? I said, there's a

1:11:49

song by a very traditional

1:11:51

classic song that was made

1:11:54

famous by also a, a,

1:11:56

a classic singer, um, this

1:11:58

is a, my mother who

1:12:01

has raised me who has raised

1:12:03

me and and then there's a

1:12:05

big photo and holding this

1:12:07

photo of her and singing

1:12:09

this song and then I

1:12:12

just started speaking quite joyously

1:12:14

about her very brief very

1:12:16

short and and then I was

1:12:18

like next week when I go

1:12:21

back to drawback I'm going to

1:12:23

church and that is it and

1:12:25

that's when I started that's

1:12:27

why I started going to

1:12:29

church. I'm assuming you grew

1:12:31

up going to church. Yeah, because

1:12:33

we all did. Yeah, so when

1:12:36

had you stopped going to

1:12:38

church? I stopped probably going

1:12:40

to church maybe 2006. This

1:12:42

is when you got a

1:12:44

million subscribers on YouTube. It

1:12:46

is right. Viewers. Yeah, a

1:12:48

million views on YouTube and

1:12:50

then you were like who

1:12:52

needs God. In fact, that's

1:12:54

how, you know, that's how

1:12:56

it first like it got into

1:12:59

charge of Caesar actually. Wow,

1:13:01

yeah, I think it sent me,

1:13:03

I think we mailed each other.

1:13:06

Wow, you see the entries, yeah.

1:13:08

No ways, really? Yeah. I know

1:13:11

the whole computer is, it's

1:13:13

go. Wow. Yeah, so, didn't Dojakat

1:13:16

also email you? Oh my goodness.

1:13:18

Like a child, child, dojacket?

1:13:20

Yeah, that's like before she

1:13:22

was a dojacket, dojacket, didn't

1:13:25

she email you? It's a

1:13:27

wild thing. She did mail me. But

1:13:29

I mean, she was like 13. She

1:13:31

sent me an email because she

1:13:33

was watching my videos on YouTube

1:13:36

as a 13-year-old. And she knew

1:13:38

us from South Africa, so she

1:13:40

made an email in email. So

1:13:43

that hi, my name is Amela

1:13:45

Zandila Lamini. And... My father is

1:13:47

Dumisani, he's this famous actor in

1:13:50

South Africa, she was in Sarafina,

1:13:52

I'm trying to get hold, I've

1:13:54

never met him. Wow. When I

1:13:56

get hold of him, and would you

1:13:58

find a way to... Get me in

1:14:00

touch with him and I felt so My

1:14:03

heart like I was like she's 13.

1:14:05

She's like a child. Yeah, she's gone

1:14:07

to this extent and I

1:14:09

was like I'm sure I can

1:14:11

find him easily Right because my

1:14:13

cousin is an actor. You probably

1:14:15

know him which from yeah, so

1:14:17

I sent I contacted him like you

1:14:19

know this guy. Yes. Where is he

1:14:21

how gonna get in touch with him?

1:14:23

And then like I mean maybe I

1:14:25

doing whatever I says this way this

1:14:27

way is try to get in touch

1:14:30

with him, told him, gave

1:14:32

him the information about

1:14:34

his daughter and he

1:14:36

just never responded and

1:14:38

then I sent an

1:14:40

email back and I

1:14:42

told him like I'll do

1:14:45

what I can but I don't

1:14:47

know what to do and then

1:14:49

one of his daughters who

1:14:51

lives in Soweto but

1:14:53

different mother also sent

1:14:56

me an email having seen the

1:14:58

fact that like, because I wrote a

1:15:00

post, I think I wrote a post, a

1:15:02

blog, yeah, you had put a, yeah,

1:15:04

post to the blog about this, yes,

1:15:06

and then I posted a blog and

1:15:08

what I asked about, and I was

1:15:10

like, well, if anybody knows where he

1:15:12

is, and then one of his, one

1:15:14

of his daughters also sent me

1:15:16

like an email and said, okay,

1:15:18

this is my email address, please

1:15:20

send my email address to, to Amala.

1:15:23

and then they would get in touch

1:15:25

and there was a last, there was

1:15:27

a last thing I did, there was

1:15:29

my last interaction with them and

1:15:31

I felt very sad because they

1:15:33

never got in touch obviously up

1:15:36

to you know to this day as far

1:15:38

as I know. So and there was long

1:15:40

before she was a dodger cat. She

1:15:42

was just like a 13 year old

1:15:44

girl watching YouTube videos. You know

1:15:47

I wonder what it is about you

1:15:49

that that makes people feel like

1:15:51

you can or would be willing to

1:15:53

help them because it's even in hearing

1:15:55

the story I think to myself like

1:15:57

I know I've done that with you in some ways.

1:15:59

I think all of us, people

1:16:01

in general, they'll turn to you

1:16:04

as Kaya and be like, Kaya,

1:16:06

can you help me do this?

1:16:08

Can you help me find this?

1:16:10

Can you help me? And I'm,

1:16:12

you think it's a smile? Yeah, but

1:16:15

I think it's more, there's something,

1:16:17

I don't know, I don't know

1:16:19

what it is about you because

1:16:21

you also have a yearning to

1:16:24

help people. Do you know what I

1:16:26

mean? Do you know what I mean?

1:16:28

I was like, yo man, I'm gonna go

1:16:30

on the show, you're literally the

1:16:32

person who for me knows

1:16:35

the most about American politics,

1:16:37

I need your help. You know, and you

1:16:39

didn't, you would never like no. In

1:16:41

fact, when we met, this is how

1:16:44

I met Kaya, when we met, so

1:16:46

Johannesburg slash South Africa has

1:16:48

a very small middle class. So if,

1:16:51

you know, if your family was

1:16:53

lucky enough to move in some

1:16:55

way, you sort of knew each

1:16:57

other as people. And I remember

1:16:59

I would go out to parties

1:17:01

or, you know, brice or

1:17:04

what Americans call

1:17:06

barbecues or whatever

1:17:08

it was. Nothing fancy, by

1:17:10

the way, because I wasn't

1:17:13

in entertainment in

1:17:15

any way. And everywhere

1:17:17

I would go, I would see this

1:17:20

guy, this short,

1:17:22

charismatic human being. with a

1:17:24

dazzling smile always laughing always talking

1:17:26

to people and I'd always see

1:17:28

him and you'd greet me and

1:17:31

I'd greet you but I didn't

1:17:33

know you and but you just

1:17:35

greet and you just like you you

1:17:37

have welcoming eyes you know and

1:17:39

the other thing I noticed was

1:17:42

oftentimes you were either surrounded

1:17:44

by businessmen in suits or

1:17:46

stunning models and I mean just like

1:17:48

gorgeous like and I mean surrounded and

1:17:50

I think it was more noticeable because

1:17:52

models are generally like six feet tall

1:17:54

yeah and then you are like you

1:17:56

know what I mean so it would

1:17:59

be like this It was quite a

1:18:01

sight to behold. And I remember

1:18:03

one day, this is when I plucked

1:18:05

up the courage in Cape Town and

1:18:07

I came up to you and I said, hey

1:18:10

man, I don't know who you are. I

1:18:12

don't know your name. But I said,

1:18:14

but you are surrounded by the most

1:18:16

beautiful women I've ever seen. And I

1:18:18

said, I just want to be your

1:18:20

friend. I said, please can I just

1:18:22

be your friend? I remember, yeah, and

1:18:24

you, yeah, upstairs, and you laughed, and

1:18:26

you were like, yeah, okay. And you

1:18:29

were just, but I mean, like, most

1:18:31

people would be like, what? This guy

1:18:33

was like, yeah, okay, well, I guess.

1:18:35

And he was like, we can be

1:18:37

friends, and we, literally, this is how

1:18:39

we became, and we exchanged numbers, and

1:18:41

you were just like, all right, we

1:18:43

can be friends. And it's so fun,

1:18:46

and those, I was with American models.

1:18:48

And I don't know because I never

1:18:50

got to meet him. I know he

1:18:52

did. All I got was our friendship

1:18:54

by the way. I never met a

1:18:57

model because of you. I know, but

1:18:59

I'm happy. But I was just, it's

1:19:01

just funny to me that like, that's

1:19:03

how I met you. Ah, that was

1:19:06

funny. Because, because actually what

1:19:08

happened there was, because I

1:19:10

remember like this friend who

1:19:12

I came town, the models,

1:19:14

they don't know where to go. And

1:19:16

let's see you're in Cape Town. Can I

1:19:19

show them? I was like, shut up. That's

1:19:21

that's how I ended up with. You

1:19:23

see, this is what I mean. Kaya's

1:19:25

always needed by people. And if you

1:19:28

need models to need someone, if you

1:19:30

have models, you need someone, models who

1:19:32

don't know where to go. You call

1:19:35

Kaya and you respond. I think that's

1:19:37

the old Kaya. You used to bring

1:19:39

models. Now I just bring stories about

1:19:41

Uber drivers. I'm old. Yeah, but I

1:19:44

think it's like a beautiful quality like

1:19:46

You know in the same way I

1:19:49

think of the stories of

1:19:51

your grandfather and you know

1:19:53

I haven't actually I've never

1:19:55

heard many stories with your

1:19:57

with your dad actually. Oh,

1:19:59

yeah What well crazy thing about

1:20:02

my dad is We was when

1:20:04

we were celebrating my sixth birthday.

1:20:06

Yeah, in the village The news

1:20:08

came that it died literally were

1:20:10

having a party great party like

1:20:12

sixth birthday is like a big

1:20:14

thing. Yeah, and guava juice You

1:20:16

know, but the guava juice you

1:20:18

knew you're made when a guava

1:20:20

juice so they were the guava

1:20:22

juice and then Because the village,

1:20:24

there were no telephones, this is

1:20:27

the 80s, got a phone call,

1:20:29

a descent, a telegram. And from

1:20:31

the shop, someone walked from the

1:20:33

shop to my grandparents' house to

1:20:35

deliver the telegram to say that,

1:20:37

well, they just received the news

1:20:39

that my father had passed away.

1:20:41

And I think it passed over

1:20:43

for a few days, because no

1:20:45

one, for some reason, they couldn't

1:20:47

identify it. He was. But the

1:20:49

one story. I mean there are

1:20:52

two stories that I remember that

1:20:54

have been told about my father,

1:20:56

but my favorite story about my

1:20:58

father was how petty he was.

1:21:00

He was, it was like, but

1:21:02

petty I think for a reason.

1:21:04

So his father, my grandfather, not

1:21:06

Alfred Kaiser Boyce, this is, yeah,

1:21:08

a Baloos Lange. Balo, Baloos, Baloos,

1:21:10

Baloos, Baloos, Lang. He had a

1:21:12

post in Edvitz, I don't know

1:21:14

how this happened, so it's a

1:21:16

story here, I've never, I've never

1:21:19

met him. So he had a

1:21:21

post at Vitz, where he was

1:21:23

somehow in the chemistry department, and

1:21:25

he was a lecturer or something,

1:21:27

I don't know how, lecturer, and

1:21:29

then the professor he was working

1:21:31

with. The white guy basically said

1:21:33

yo, I just found out that

1:21:35

you're about to be arrested. It

1:21:37

better leave go to Lesotho So

1:21:39

he runs off to Lesotho. This

1:21:41

so this is your grandfather on

1:21:44

your dad's my dad's okay. Got

1:21:46

it. So he's he's a lecturer

1:21:48

at a South African University Vith

1:21:50

Yes, yes He was suspected because

1:21:52

he taught chemistry. They said that

1:21:54

he was teaching freedom fighters how

1:21:56

to make bombs and that's how

1:21:58

they were saying. And was he?

1:22:00

Maybe, I don't know. Okay. I

1:22:02

have no idea. I have no

1:22:04

idea. So I have no idea.

1:22:06

So I have no idea. So

1:22:08

that's what they used him off

1:22:11

because teaching chemistry. And his colleague

1:22:13

tells him I've just found out

1:22:15

that you're about to be arrested.

1:22:17

Yes. I'm assuming by the apartheid

1:22:19

government. Okay. And so now he

1:22:21

flees the country. So he flees

1:22:23

the country goes to Lesotho. Okay,

1:22:25

got it. And he ends up

1:22:27

in Lesotho and gets a teaching

1:22:29

post. He's teaching at the university.

1:22:31

They're called University of Roma. So

1:22:33

he's there like, so he's in

1:22:36

exile now. Yeah, as an exile.

1:22:38

So this is there for a

1:22:40

few years. And I mean, my

1:22:42

grandmother used to tell stories about

1:22:44

the people who used to go

1:22:46

to their house like Mandela Sobuqua

1:22:48

and all of those people that,

1:22:50

you know, they'd be there'd be

1:22:52

there with there with them with

1:22:54

them with them with them. And

1:22:56

but there with them. And but

1:22:58

one day. And but one day.

1:23:00

they received a letter, actually a

1:23:03

copy of the letter, from the

1:23:05

Minister of Home Affairs of Lesotho,

1:23:07

basically saying that they have received

1:23:09

word that his continued presence in

1:23:11

Lesotho presents an imminent danger to

1:23:13

the safety and security of Lesotho

1:23:15

and therefore they're giving 24 hours

1:23:17

to leave the country. Who's this

1:23:19

letter coming from? From the Home

1:23:21

Affairs of Lesotho. But they were

1:23:23

pressurized by the South African government.

1:23:25

Wow. So the apartheid government. says

1:23:28

to the government of Lesotho. Yes.

1:23:30

You guys are harboring a terrorist.

1:23:32

A terrorist. Yes, which is your

1:23:34

grandfather. Yes. And if you don't

1:23:36

harbor him, yeah, then Lesotho is

1:23:38

now in India and Africa. Yeah,

1:23:40

that will happen. And so he

1:23:42

left before like that deadline and

1:23:44

obviously back roots so that so

1:23:46

he could lose Lesotho as well,

1:23:48

living my father and you know

1:23:50

his kids there and he lives

1:23:52

back roots. but then somehow the

1:23:55

cops find them. This is in

1:23:57

South Africa now. Yeah. They left

1:23:59

the Switzerland. They find him, arrest

1:24:01

him, torture him, so it's torture.

1:24:03

and to such an extent that

1:24:05

it becomes, well, it doesn't get

1:24:07

almost half paralyzed. Yeah, yeah, okay.

1:24:09

And they're like, well, they can

1:24:11

take him to court because there's

1:24:13

nothing can do now. They've tortured

1:24:15

him so much. And eventually, you

1:24:17

know, about a year or two

1:24:20

later, he dies. And so my

1:24:22

father, this is what I'm saying,

1:24:24

this is my favorite story about

1:24:26

my father. So my father then

1:24:28

becomes a traffic cop like in

1:24:30

traffic cop like in the 80s.

1:24:32

called to the head offices of

1:24:34

him, tighter. You know, now it's

1:24:36

Transchayana, another fake country. So now

1:24:38

he is, he's someone that has

1:24:40

no idea has been called there.

1:24:42

He goes to the top offices

1:24:44

and they ask him like, they

1:24:47

say, they bring a file, they

1:24:49

like, they open the phone, they

1:24:51

say explain yourself. Why is it

1:24:53

that every single traffic fine? is

1:24:55

to a white person. You don't

1:24:57

find any. You don't find any

1:24:59

black people. All these fines are

1:25:01

just white people. And this is,

1:25:03

well, most people who drive cars

1:25:05

are white. And they say, so

1:25:07

you're saying that black people don't,

1:25:09

they don't commit traffic offenses. And

1:25:12

he would find them for the

1:25:14

tiniest infringement. And basically, he was

1:25:16

given a warning that if he

1:25:18

continues to be filing any quit.

1:25:20

Wow, so it has his own

1:25:22

little rebellion, I think, against the,

1:25:24

I think is quite just, I

1:25:26

guess, what happened, what happened to

1:25:28

his father. Kudos, really. I like

1:25:30

that. That's literally the only story

1:25:32

that I know of him. Damn,

1:25:34

I like that. Because I was

1:25:36

too young. Yeah, yeah, no, that

1:25:39

makes sense. So there was, I

1:25:41

thought that was a freaking. He

1:25:43

would have worked well as a

1:25:45

cop in America, but they would

1:25:47

have been like, listen, same tactic,

1:25:49

but flip the race. You're doing

1:25:51

very well. You're doing very well.

1:25:53

You've got the skills. You've got

1:25:55

the skills we're looking for. But

1:25:57

now what we just need you

1:25:59

to do is flip it. the

1:26:01

other way and you'll meet your

1:26:04

quotas. I'd love to know, okay,

1:26:06

like, one of the things I

1:26:08

really admire about you is how

1:26:10

you have such a giving nature

1:26:12

as a person and giving in

1:26:14

a multidisciplinary way, like you're a

1:26:16

giving person with your time, you're

1:26:18

a giving person with your knowledge,

1:26:20

you're a giving person with your

1:26:22

knowledge, you're a giving person with

1:26:24

your attention, you're a giving person

1:26:26

with your attention, you're a giving

1:26:28

person with your attention, you're a

1:26:31

giving person with your anything, anything,

1:26:33

you're just, you're a giving person.

1:26:35

And I was thinking about this

1:26:37

the other day, I was like,

1:26:39

I don't know many people who've

1:26:41

experienced more loss than you have,

1:26:43

especially in like short amounts of

1:26:45

time, you know, and sometimes I'll

1:26:47

see your posts online, you know,

1:26:49

when it's like your, your moms,

1:26:51

the anniversary of your mom's passing.

1:26:53

And I know one of the

1:26:56

biggest ones was your youngest brother,

1:26:58

you know, you know, What

1:27:02

do you think it is

1:27:04

about you that keeps you

1:27:07

being generous and hopeful and

1:27:09

optimistic despite feeling so many

1:27:11

losses or despite experiencing so

1:27:14

many moments that could turn

1:27:16

you the other way? Because

1:27:19

I honestly, I don't just

1:27:21

admire it. I've been inspired

1:27:24

and shocked by it because

1:27:26

I haven't seen you hardened.

1:27:29

I haven't seen you hardened.

1:27:31

hopeless, and maybe you hide

1:27:34

it, I hope you don't

1:27:36

as a friend, but I

1:27:39

would love to know what

1:27:41

like, what keeps you going

1:27:44

in the face of something

1:27:46

that could like dim the

1:27:49

light in many people's eyes.

1:27:51

Sure, that's such a, wow,

1:27:54

I've never thought about that.

1:27:56

It's such a difficult question

1:27:59

to answer. got to sound

1:28:01

maybe a little crazy but

1:28:04

I remember the year I

1:28:06

lost my brother we were in

1:28:08

LA with your mother in

1:28:10

December we were you and

1:28:13

I yes yes this was so

1:28:15

that was COVID yeah that was

1:28:18

COVID yeah and I

1:28:20

remember like just having

1:28:22

these conversations

1:28:24

with her mother like a

1:28:26

faith and like resilience

1:28:28

her I mean, there's this

1:28:31

profound, I think, belief that

1:28:33

she has. Yeah, my mom is that

1:28:35

I, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's crazy

1:28:37

because I mean, we, and I think

1:28:39

we connected in such a

1:28:42

nice way, actually, with her mother

1:28:44

in that, in that very short

1:28:46

space of time, and she'd go

1:28:48

out and pray and all of that.

1:28:50

And, and, and I think part

1:28:52

of what helped me like, like,

1:28:54

maybe that moment, like, maybe

1:28:56

that moment, and her faith, When

1:28:59

reading when I read the Bible,

1:29:01

yeah, which was because the Bible

1:29:03

like makes like seven assurances Which

1:29:06

are things bad things are going

1:29:08

to happen. Yeah, so it Therefore

1:29:10

they're guaranteed to happen and they

1:29:12

will happen and so and one of

1:29:15

them is like It's like like when

1:29:17

you walk through the rivers you will

1:29:19

not be swept away when you walk

1:29:21

to the fire you'll not be burnt.

1:29:23

So the bad things will happen as

1:29:25

they should and I think we're not put

1:29:28

on this earth for, you know, for

1:29:30

pleasantness. And I

1:29:32

think that in most people, like,

1:29:34

I mean, I always judge

1:29:36

myself and always feel like

1:29:39

I have little contribution when

1:29:41

I think about the gifts that

1:29:43

I have, I think, as a

1:29:45

person. I've always found that

1:29:47

crazy about you. I always

1:29:49

tell you this. That. I always

1:29:51

feel like you minimize how

1:29:54

much you contribute to

1:29:56

everything. Okay, but always yeah, and

1:29:58

I've always told you I know

1:30:00

you have, that's true. Like you,

1:30:02

and you always remind me, which is

1:30:05

crazy, and you always say that like,

1:30:07

I am more than what I think

1:30:09

I am. Always. Which is, and I

1:30:11

suppose I need to get to that

1:30:13

place and you always say that I

1:30:16

just need to get to that place,

1:30:18

so I just take it and just

1:30:20

take that. And maybe I'm not

1:30:22

at that place yet and it's

1:30:24

going to come. Right. But, and

1:30:26

I think for me, it's those guarantees

1:30:29

that I know, okay, when you do

1:30:31

this, you will be okay. It is,

1:30:33

it will happen. And so, I try to,

1:30:35

I try to arm myself with

1:30:37

the knowledge that tough things are

1:30:39

going to happen. Okay. And therefore,

1:30:41

if they happen, I should be

1:30:43

prepared, but I mean, the one thing

1:30:46

that I've, I was never prepared for

1:30:48

my brother. That hit me

1:30:50

harder than anything else. Then

1:30:52

anything can possibly. Why, why was

1:30:54

that? It's just like a thing

1:30:57

that I thought would never

1:30:59

happen. I just did not

1:31:01

think that someone close to me

1:31:03

would take their own life. He

1:31:06

lived with me. So my

1:31:08

brother lives with me. What did

1:31:10

I miss? How could I not

1:31:12

see this? I claim to love

1:31:14

this person. was I so self-absorbed.

1:31:16

So these questions I was asking

1:31:18

about myself. And I mean he

1:31:20

was going through an addiction, a

1:31:22

gambling addiction. I didn't even see

1:31:24

it and he lived with me

1:31:26

and I didn't know which is

1:31:28

what eventually led to him taking his

1:31:31

life. And so I mean I took

1:31:33

some active decisions once I found out

1:31:35

that he was gambling and he got

1:31:37

himself into like a hole that he

1:31:40

really couldn't get himself out of.

1:31:42

And Got him to therapy

1:31:44

and I mean he worked with me.

1:31:46

I defy him I forced him to

1:31:48

call my mother I should try to

1:31:50

kick him out of my place as

1:31:52

a a threat Yeah, I mean can

1:31:54

you imagine you have to sit across

1:31:56

it rather than tell him listen.

1:31:58

I'm firing you and then I have

1:32:01

to follow him and I say listen I love

1:32:03

you I'm not being mean malicious

1:32:05

but this is for you to get better

1:32:07

that in four months you're gonna

1:32:09

come back you know yeah you're gonna come

1:32:11

back and work just did you to get

1:32:14

better I gave him the phone I said

1:32:16

I'm not gonna call my mother and tell

1:32:18

her that I've had to fire you here

1:32:20

you take the phone and you call and

1:32:22

you tell her and he had to call

1:32:24

so there were like a series of decisions

1:32:26

that I made and And what was

1:32:29

very crazy, I think, for a

1:32:31

very long time after that, after

1:32:33

he took his life and the

1:32:35

decisions that I made, what was

1:32:37

that question, did I push him

1:32:39

too hard, too quickly? Yeah, I can

1:32:42

only imagine. And I became

1:32:44

very doubtful of almost any