0:00

So I was expelled from my

0:02

primary school? Yeah. And now if

0:04

you drive pastids. No joke. They

0:06

have, they'll have like a banner

0:08

flying sometimes. I love it. We're

0:10

proud that Trevor Noah went to.

0:13

And I look at him and

0:15

I'm like, you guys kick me

0:17

out. You guys kick me out

0:19

of the school. And now you're

0:21

putting up a banner like, we

0:23

are proud to be the school

0:26

that Trevor Noah went to. But

0:28

you kicked me out. with Trevor

0:30

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2:36

know, it's funny, in preparing for

2:38

this conversation, I was thinking, there's

2:40

very few people we sit down

2:42

with where you can talk about

2:44

as many topics as we can

2:47

with you. Like when I think

2:49

of a Venn diagram of conversation,

2:51

Ruha fits perfectly in the middle

2:53

of most of these Venns. I

2:55

mean, like everything. Master of none,

2:57

though. Master of none. Don't say

2:59

that. No, no, no. Actually, no.

3:01

Actually, you should say that. You

3:03

think she's a master of none?

3:05

Actually, you should say that. I'm

3:07

going to read you the full

3:09

quote. So I

3:11

like to consider myself a master of

3:13

none. And I used to hate it

3:15

my whole life until I'll read you

3:17

the full quotes. The full saying is,

3:20

a jack of all trades is

3:22

a master of none, but oftentimes better

3:24

than a master of one. Yes. I

3:26

love it. I love it. You know,

3:28

the word amateur, there's a beautiful

3:30

essay by Edward Said where he talks

3:32

about, you know, the difference between professionals

3:34

and amateurs. And he says, you know,

3:36

at the heart of amateur is Amor.

3:38

It's love. It is the love

3:40

of something. Yeah. It's actually a source

3:43

of pride because you're infusing love. You're

3:45

led by love, not necessarily a need

3:47

for status and accolades and professional sort

3:49

of titles. And so I embrace

3:51

that. Let me say, this lady has

3:53

a macArthur, like the genius. Before we

3:55

go down this Amor road, this

3:58

is a very very credentialed professor here.

4:00

Justjana, you could not be more Nigerian if

4:02

you try. Exactly. No, because if my

4:04

parents are listening, they're like, oh, she's just

4:07

speaking to some person with an opinion.

4:09

I'm like, no, mom and dad. So, yeah,

4:11

that's for your parents. That's for my

4:13

parents. This woman has a macabre, genius

4:15

grant, so she's written a ton of

4:17

books. For those at home that may

4:19

not be familiar, Ruhi is a tenured

4:22

professor at Princeton University. That's why I'm

4:24

like, she's not an amateur, guys,

4:26

who's currently also Nigerian. Let me tell

4:28

you something. There's nothing a Nigerian

4:30

will point out more than this person.

4:32

This is a professor. Yes!

4:35

Can I introduce you? Professor! This is

4:37

a doctor. I'm sorry. Doctor Ruhi. Do

4:39

you know what his PhD is? Do

4:41

you know? You're not talking to a

4:43

person. This is a doctor. She's not

4:45

your mate. It's so crazy how just

4:47

like, and another tin. Wait, wait. But

4:49

it's important context, Nigerian. Trevor, let's start

4:51

counting how many times she has

4:53

to remind. Someone has to do it because

4:56

she's too humble. Yeah, and I think

4:58

that's why you're the perfect person to speak

5:00

to about everything. I wrote down a

5:02

list of things because I didn't want to

5:04

miss anything. Everything from DEI to the

5:06

world of tech, education, community and the

5:08

way we see it, society, government, the role

5:10

that it plays. I was like, it

5:13

feels like your work has drawn you into

5:15

everything. You know, your degrees,

5:17

your qualifications, your expertise, the amount of

5:19

time you spend on it, your books.

5:21

So, maybe the first thing

5:23

we should jump into is DEI.

5:25

Has DEI failed? Was it bound to

5:27

fail? Yeah, I

5:29

was never a big booster

5:31

of DEI. So, to see

5:34

it coming down, I feel

5:36

for those who were genuinely

5:38

invested in that as a

5:40

potential to transform institutions and

5:42

industries, but it always felt

5:44

like a concession, a placeholder

5:46

for something that could be

5:49

more transformative. And so, like

5:51

with placeholders, I think they

5:53

become permanent. As opposed to

5:55

being a stepping stone, it

5:57

becomes this kind of safe

5:59

way. of corralling those who would sort

6:01

of cause trouble. And so, you know,

6:04

you could say it was bound to

6:06

fail or it could say it's doing

6:08

exactly what it was designed to do.

6:10

And so I think we shouldn't be

6:13

satisfied with kind of these sort of

6:15

token fleeting forms of attention because as

6:17

we're seeing now, they come and go

6:20

very quickly. So a lot so many

6:22

of the people who were hired under

6:24

DUI. programs, you know, after the killing

6:26

of George Floyd are now losing their

6:29

jobs. The entire programs are

6:31

going up in smoke. So I

6:33

think we should rethink what our

6:35

demands are. Ruja, it's interesting. You

6:37

say that the thing that made

6:39

me come across you, not first,

6:41

but a very viral moment, you

6:44

gave a commencement speech at your

6:46

alma mater, Spelman College, and you

6:48

said black faces in high places

6:50

will not save us. And For some people

6:53

who really believe in like representation politics,

6:55

they jump up against the

6:57

idea. They think, no, we need black

6:59

faces and high spaces. What brought you

7:01

to that conclusion? Because it's a very

7:03

radical one and also like. I would

7:05

say kind of cynical as well. I

7:07

mean, you know, I'm a cynical person.

7:09

But I'm just interested about what about

7:11

your life path brought to you at

7:13

that place. It doesn't matter if it's

7:15

a black person at the top. Yes.

7:17

This system is rotten. So many

7:19

stories I could tell. One is

7:22

as a graduate student, I was

7:24

in that kind of position of

7:26

being enrolled to be the black

7:28

face of a scientific program that

7:30

was trying to recruit more black

7:32

patients to undergo a very experiment.

7:34

treatment. So I was enrolled to

7:37

be that person that was supposed

7:39

to help win over the trust

7:41

of this community that was needed

7:43

for this program and it was

7:45

a very uncomfortable position because I

7:47

was at a one hand, you know,

7:49

sort of touted and put up on a

7:52

pedestal, but at the same time very vulnerable

7:54

because if I had said no, then I

7:56

would have lost access to X, Y, and

7:58

Z. So one is... my own complicity.

8:01

Then very recently, in the

8:03

last year, in my own

8:05

institution, I've observed how black

8:07

administrators in particular are really

8:10

being called on to do

8:12

the dirty work, to write

8:14

the threatening emails, to call

8:17

students who are demanding an

8:19

end to genocide, aggressive and

8:21

angry and a threat. It's

8:23

not the white president, but

8:26

a whole flank of black

8:28

administrators who are the ones

8:30

who are really doing the work

8:32

of these institutions to repress free

8:35

speech and dissent. And I think

8:37

that that is very strategic, because

8:40

when that is the face of

8:42

the message, people perhaps who believe

8:44

in representational politics may be less

8:47

likely to question it. be critical

8:49

of it, to push back against

8:52

it. So it's really a way

8:54

of insulating business as usual with

8:56

a cosmetic veneer of change and

8:59

progress and inclusion that I really

9:01

believe we have to look past

9:03

and look through in order to

9:05

see what's actually going on. I

9:08

can imagine, you know, as

9:10

I'm listening to you say these

9:12

two things about diversity, the first

9:14

part of it is. I can imagine a

9:16

lot of people who don't share your politics

9:18

cheering with you, first of all, because I

9:20

think of people like Elon Musk who have

9:22

said, no, you know, he's like, we don't

9:24

want diversity, we want the best people for

9:26

the job and that's it, and stop hiring

9:28

diversity. Boeing planes are crashing because of the

9:30

blacks, the blacks don't know how to screw

9:32

doors in, right? Even though there's no, there's

9:34

literally, there's no record of this. So he

9:36

would hear you and be like, and be

9:38

like, and be like, yes, yes, yes, thank

9:40

you. We don't want diversity. We want

9:42

the best person for the job. Yes.

9:45

Another person will be like, wait, but

9:47

then Ruhar, if we're not addressing the

9:49

exclusion of people, like when I

9:51

think of South Africa's history, the intention

9:54

behind what we called

9:56

black economic empowerment, which was

9:58

terribly implemented. by the way. I

10:01

think the idea behind it was great.

10:03

And it was for a long time,

10:05

black people couldn't go to schools,

10:07

black people couldn't get this type

10:10

of education, they couldn't get this

10:12

type of job, they couldn't live

10:14

in this city, they couldn't do...

10:16

Similar to America, right? You couldn't

10:19

get a bank loan, you couldn't

10:21

get the mortgage, your house

10:23

was undervalued, etc. continues

10:25

to be. And I can imagine somebody listening to

10:27

what you're saying, going like, well, wait,

10:30

wait, wait, wait, but then what are

10:32

we supposed to do, not fix it?

10:34

Because I know your very solutions driven

10:36

as well. What do you think we're

10:38

missing when we only think of the

10:40

inclusion or not the inclusion? Simply

10:42

put, we're not asking what we're

10:44

being included into. And so, you

10:46

know, whether we draw on something

10:48

that Martin Luther King said in

10:50

terms of being integrated into a

10:52

burning house or we think about

10:54

the fact that plantations. were very

10:56

diverse places. But we would never say

10:59

that we would never say that

11:01

they were we would never

11:03

say that they were progressive

11:06

or liberal. So diversity and

11:08

domination can go hand in

11:11

hand. And honestly, many of

11:13

the institutions that we people

11:16

are currently working on continue

11:18

this plantation ethos. You know,

11:21

I just came back from

11:23

a conference where educators of

11:26

color working in schools around

11:28

the country, specifically independent schools,

11:31

private schools, that so many of

11:33

them got hired a few years

11:35

ago are now being let go.

11:37

They were used up. They were put on

11:39

the face of the websites. They were

11:41

used to make these institutions feel good.

11:44

And now that they are actually using

11:46

their voices, they're being let go. And

11:48

so that means that it was never

11:51

about true inclusion of people's insights and

11:53

experiences, but it was there to make

11:55

the institutions feel good about themselves. And

11:58

so again, when we're offered two choices.

12:00

exclusion or inclusion, we always have

12:02

to ask ourselves what's being left

12:04

off the table. I actually had

12:06

a follow-up. You have been an

12:09

activist alongside the students in the

12:11

pro- Palestine movement, kind of become

12:13

the, I'd say, the professorial face

12:15

of this movement at Princeton. And

12:18

because of your stance, you've been

12:20

suspended. And that is what you're talking

12:22

about when you're talking about

12:25

black administrators and... the protests

12:27

against genocide, etc. in the

12:29

light of diversity and inclusion.

12:31

Can you speak more about that?

12:33

Because you're putting your career on the

12:36

line and there's people out there, but

12:38

like, what's Palestine got to do with

12:40

you? So I'm really curious about that.

12:42

I'm happy to. And just quick

12:45

clarification, I'm on probation for a

12:47

year. Okay. Specifically for accompanying the

12:49

students in a sit-in that took

12:51

place in the spring. And I

12:54

went in because they were concerned

12:56

about one police... brutality that we'd

12:58

been witnessing at Columbia and other

13:00

places and also because up until

13:03

that point the administration was really

13:05

distorting their activities and their motives

13:07

and so they were they wanted

13:10

a kind of objective faculty observer

13:12

but the administration has rejected that

13:14

that status and just said I

13:16

was with them and so now

13:18

I'm on probation and so you

13:20

know to think about again at

13:22

the very moment you mentioned the

13:25

day before I received the call

13:27

from MacArthur that I won this

13:29

award in September. I had just

13:31

had a very tense call with

13:33

the administration that was essentially investigating

13:35

my role. And so when the

13:37

award, it was announced, it was

13:39

all over the university website, all

13:41

of the accolades. So they take credit.

13:44

And at the same time, they're investigating

13:46

me for basically acting on what I

13:48

was hired to do. And so they're

13:50

happy for it to stay on the

13:52

page. But when you start... actually living

13:55

what you're writing and studying about, then

13:57

it becomes a problem. And so that

13:59

is a again, this disjunction between liking

14:01

things to be controlled in the

14:03

way that will benefit them, but

14:05

as soon as you start to challenge

14:08

them, then they try to put

14:10

you in your place. Try being

14:12

the operative word. You spoke about this,

14:14

you know, in that same address that

14:16

Christiano was talking about that went viral.

14:19

One of the things you speak about

14:21

as well is these universities,

14:23

and universities in general, being

14:25

quick. to suppress people's voices

14:27

when a protest is happening.

14:30

But then many years later,

14:32

rewarding those people with honorary degrees or,

14:34

and I didn't realize that until you

14:36

said it, I was like, oh yeah,

14:38

there's so many people, you name it,

14:41

like from MLK to Nelson Mandela, to

14:43

where universities, like the

14:45

institutions were against them. Yeah. And

14:47

then many decades later, like we would like

14:49

to honor you, Mr. Mandela. with this degree

14:52

for the piecework that you've done. And I

14:54

wish, like, Nelson Mandela, I wished like one

14:56

time he would have come on and be

14:58

like, but you're a country. You were told

15:00

me to shut out when I was protesting.

15:02

But I mean, I guess you don't want

15:04

to do it in that moment, but yeah.

15:06

But I mean like Alice Walker came

15:09

to Spelman, she was an undergrad there,

15:11

she left after a year or two

15:13

mats because they were really against her

15:15

civil rights activism and now of course

15:17

she will be touted as a former

15:20

student even though she had to go

15:22

to another school to graduate. So there's

15:24

so many cases like that. And all

15:26

of these schools were talking about, you

15:28

know, had students who were against apartheid

15:30

who fought apart, you know, like thinking

15:33

about South African apartheid. Yes. in all

15:35

of these places where they really in

15:37

hindsight they're like oh yeah we should

15:39

have been against that when it was

15:41

happening and so now that's like part

15:44

of the history yeah they want to

15:46

rewrite that tradition they can't make connect

15:48

the dots I'm curious Ruja as like

15:50

Trevor teases me all the time because

15:52

I'm a bit of a champagne socialist

15:54

right yes so I'm always very curious

15:56

about the people that it goes from

15:59

theory like you write all these books

16:01

to actual practice. Like, you're on probation right

16:03

now. You know, you're not, you're not working

16:05

because of what you believe in. What is

16:07

it about you in your history that means

16:10

you're like, oh, this can't just be what

16:12

I write about. It has to be what

16:14

I live. Yeah. So one is that

16:16

my work is not tied to the

16:18

institution. Like I carry on doing the

16:20

work. This probation is like adult time

16:22

out. It's like, it's like, it's like,

16:24

if you do anything, if you do

16:26

anything else. quote unquote unprofessional, as that's

16:28

the language they use, then you'll really

16:30

get in trouble. So it's mild compared

16:32

to those colleagues who have been fired

16:35

and were tenured and who've been penalized

16:37

much worse. The other thing is that,

16:39

you know, I became a professor very

16:41

reluctantly. Like when I was applying to

16:43

grad school, my undergrad professors were

16:45

like, really, you want to get

16:47

a PhD because I was always.

16:49

making trouble. I was always on

16:51

the activist end of the spectrum,

16:53

so they were actually surprised that

16:55

I wanted to pursue this. And

16:57

literally the day that I turned

17:00

in my dissertation, I was still

17:02

questioning. So I've... come into this

17:04

profession reluctantly, never fully wearing that

17:06

coat tightly. It's always loose. I

17:08

always think of myself as like

17:10

more like a kindergarten teacher in

17:12

Professor Drag, you know, like I'd much

17:14

rather be talking to a room full

17:17

of, you know, kids and teenagers, and

17:19

I do often. And so I

17:21

think partly is that I don't

17:23

identify strongly with this very uptight

17:26

insulated... sort of ideal of what

17:28

it means to be an academic or

17:30

professor. I have one foot in the

17:33

academy and always one foot out. I

17:35

will never turn to these institutions for

17:37

my sense of self-worth or self or

17:39

mission. It's like I don't give them

17:42

my all and so they can't take

17:44

anything from me in doing this either.

17:46

Wow. Let's talk a little bit more

17:48

about institutions themselves, you

17:50

know, specifically institutions of higher learning.

17:52

On previous episodes of the podcast,

17:54

you know, we've talked to, you

17:56

know, historians, like, let's say, you've

17:58

all know how And, you know, we've

18:01

talked to people like Tanahasi Coates and we've

18:03

talked to and obviously because of the

18:05

time We're in Israel Palestine comes up But

18:07

then many other issues come up and that that

18:09

one overshadows some of the other conversations that

18:11

are that are as prominent in different ways, right?

18:14

the one thing I found myself wrestling

18:16

with over the past few months is

18:19

how universities have failed

18:21

in my opinion

18:24

to be the bastion of

18:27

Conversation that moves people in a direction and

18:29

and what I mean by this is You

18:32

remember Christiana, this was even when we were still at

18:35

the Daily Show I Didn't

18:38

like that universities were blocking people like Ben

18:40

Shapiro from coming to speak, right? And the

18:42

reason for it was because I was because

18:45

at the time people like no, we don't

18:47

want him to come He's a Nazi. We

18:49

don't want this blah blah blah So forget

18:51

how you feel about him or not the

18:53

thing I kept on saying was if a

18:55

university Cannot

18:57

immunize its students to the ideas of

18:59

a quote -unquote radical person Let's say depending

19:01

on how you look at them Then what

19:03

is the point of a university like

19:05

I feel like that's supposed to be the

19:08

boxing ground where we go It's almost

19:10

like you want your kids to come back

19:12

from school and say hey today We

19:14

fought with each other about apartheid and you

19:16

know We fought about whether or not

19:18

people should be segregated and we fought about

19:20

you know What's happening in the Middle

19:22

East and but in our school? They teach us

19:24

how to fight because there's like a there's a because

19:26

there is there is a constructive way to do

19:28

it And I wonder from your perspective

19:30

what you think we're missing in higher

19:32

learning institutions that now it doesn't

19:34

seem like the kids

19:37

or the faculty or the

19:39

institution itself Have the

19:41

ability to facilitate something that

19:43

society definitely can't yeah Yeah,

19:45

I think that's you know there's

19:47

layers to it because I necessarily

19:49

think it's a new phenomenon that

19:51

this sort of lack Of capacity

19:53

to engender constructive conversation. I would

19:56

say that is distinct from the

19:58

kind of debate bro of

20:00

someone like Shapiro where it is

20:02

very combative. It's not about us

20:05

gaining knowledge together, but it's really

20:07

about me winning. Oh, it's about

20:09

owning people. Yeah, definitely. We should

20:12

be able to wrestle with difficult

20:14

conversations. And so I think part

20:17

of, you know, the exceptionalism around

20:19

Palestine that we've seen in the

20:21

last year in particular has a

20:24

lot to do with the idealization

20:26

of what the university should be,

20:28

which it hasn't ever been. for

20:31

the vast majority of people and

20:33

really the economic underpinnings of these

20:36

institutions. You know, one person described

20:38

it as a hedge fund that

20:40

offers classes. You know, so to

20:43

really think about, you know, really

20:45

this idea that these are this

20:48

enlightenment model of learning and so

20:50

much of it is profit-driven and

20:52

these profits are deeply intertwined with

20:55

the military-military industrial complex weapons manufacturers.

20:57

Like it's not just... about disclosing

21:00

and divesting specifically when it comes

21:02

to Israel Palestine, but the fact

21:04

that these institutions are in bed

21:07

with the military, so that the

21:09

calling into question of that entire

21:12

infrastructure is really like getting to

21:14

the foundation of what's holding these

21:16

places up. And so the crackdown

21:19

that we think, oh, this is

21:21

so disproportionate. These students are just

21:24

trying to talk about this or

21:26

that. It's because what they're talking

21:28

about is really getting to the

21:31

foundations of what's holding these institutions

21:33

up. We're going to continue this

21:35

conversation right off to this short

21:38

break. This helps keep your feet

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in a more natural position. So

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you can move how you were

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ultra. Try ultra for yourself with

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22:01

AlterRunning.com. Yeah,

22:10

you know, I was thinking about it

22:12

for a whole host of topics. Like, let's

22:14

say Donald Trump, for instance. I'm

22:17

often surprised when I

22:19

meet people who

22:22

cannot understand why anyone would vote for Donald

22:24

Trump. I

22:26

go, you mean you have no, they're like, I

22:28

just don't get it. How could you? Then I'm

22:30

like, what do you mean how could you? You

22:32

may not agree with the person, but surely you

22:34

should be able to see that this person is

22:36

identifying an issue and they see

22:38

Donald Trump as the solution to this

22:41

issue, right? So even if you

22:43

erase your politics, just for a moment,

22:45

the issue will remain, right? So

22:47

the factory job is gone. The

22:49

land is now, you know, barren.

22:51

There's more pollution, people birth rates.

22:53

You name it. The issue is

22:56

going to remain regardless of the

22:58

politics. But I don't know. I

23:00

find myself constantly in conversations with

23:02

people who cannot even begin to

23:04

fathom the possibility of

23:06

another human seeing the world differently or

23:08

seeing the same thing, but coming to

23:10

a different conclusion on how to repair

23:12

it. Trevor, we, the

23:15

three of us and many others like

23:17

us, we have to navigate a

23:19

world that was not built for us.

23:21

So by a matter of survival,

23:23

we have to take other people's position.

23:25

We have to know how we're

23:28

being seen at all times in order

23:30

to navigate, to stay out of

23:32

danger. It's a capacity that we have

23:34

grown, we've had to grow. So

23:36

we're constantly shifting positions. You know, we

23:38

have language for this. Du Bois

23:40

called double consciousness, you know, looking through

23:42

different lenses. And so this is

23:44

part of how we see the world is

23:46

not to only see it through our

23:48

own lens. And so the fact

23:51

that people cannot switch perspective

23:53

is a luxury. It's a privilege

23:55

that means that, oh, you

23:57

can only navigate the world only

23:59

through your lens, you don't have

24:01

to take other people's positions. So

24:03

when it comes to something like

24:05

the Trump phenomenon, or just thinking

24:07

about what on the outside appears

24:09

like hate and vitriol and

24:12

evil even, part of what

24:14

we have to reckon with

24:16

is how from the inside

24:18

of that perspective, it's not

24:20

experienced as hate and vitriol.

24:22

In some cases, it's

24:24

actually affinity, love. People are

24:26

bonding over these perspectives

24:28

and outlooks. And so I

24:30

remember a few years

24:33

ago, I saw this really

24:35

heartbreaking video, this cafeteria

24:37

scene of kids that I

24:39

think it was right

24:41

after he was elected the

24:43

first time. These kids

24:45

were chanting, build that wall.

24:47

And they were pointing at

24:49

this little Latino boy in

24:51

the cafeteria, build that wall, build

24:53

that wall. And so I

24:55

was thinking about not just those

24:57

kids, but the parents of

25:00

those kids who see the building

25:02

of that wall, the bordering

25:04

of our world, not as an

25:06

evil infrastructure, not as motivated

25:08

by hate, but motivated by a

25:10

distorted form of love for

25:12

their own children. So the idea

25:14

that we have to do

25:16

this to protect our children, their

25:19

jobs, their futures, it's really

25:21

what Fanon would call like this

25:23

perverse form of love. I

25:25

remember reading as a grad student

25:27

a book called Women in

25:29

the Clan that was talking about

25:31

women's very prominent role in

25:33

the Ku Klux Klan. And this...

25:35

Hashtag diversity, hashtag inclusion. Exactly. I just

25:37

want to acknowledge them. Thank you,

25:39

thank you, point point.

25:42

And how the ethnographer

25:44

who really infiltrated and

25:46

went inside these organizations

25:48

and befriended and quotes these

25:51

women, she writes about how they

25:53

had potlucks, they took care of

25:55

each other's kids. There was so much

25:57

affinity and love in the... inside

25:59

that then got expressed by who

26:01

they hated, like they bonded over

26:03

who they hated. Right, right, right. So

26:05

unless we can understand that the

26:07

kind of internal workings, and we

26:09

only think of it as what is

26:12

experienced from the outside, we won't

26:14

get to the root of the

26:16

problem, which is people seeking bonds

26:18

with other human beings, but only being

26:20

able to do it by having

26:22

something to be against. And that

26:24

is not inevitable, right? That's just

26:26

what the pattern, but it's not inevitable.

26:28

Yeah. It's interesting that you mentioned

26:30

elementary school students because I thought

26:32

of little expelled Trevor. But, but

26:34

I must clearly state, I should have

26:37

been expelled. OK, for the record,

26:39

for the record, I am not,

26:41

I was not anything worth fighting

26:43

for. I was an absolute terror and

26:45

the school was right to expel

26:47

me. However, no, no, no, I'm

26:49

going to correct you. The school

26:51

should have been set up in such

26:53

a way that would allowed you

26:55

to express your, I think we're

26:57

going to, we're going to disagree on

27:00

this, but we'll come back to

27:02

it. One thing that struck me

27:04

about what you said, they should

27:06

have created a space where demon Trevor

27:08

could have thrived. And I'm just,

27:10

I would love for you to

27:12

kind of speak a lot more

27:14

about like your abolitionist politics, because I

27:16

think that is the thread that

27:18

runs through everything you believe, whether

27:21

it's Israel and Palestine, reproductive justice,

27:23

how we approach universities. You kind of

27:25

have this worldview that everyone can

27:27

kind of be redeemed and fixed.

27:29

And that kind of starts in

27:31

the childhood arena of how we do

27:33

elementary school, which I'm really curious

27:35

about because I'm currently going through

27:37

the process of trying to get

27:39

a little Trevor elementary school. Yes.

27:43

So I'd love to, I'd

27:45

love to know more of

27:47

that because you have this

27:49

very compassionate, I think, lens

27:51

on the Trump voter that

27:54

people may be surprised that

27:56

someone like yourself has, because

27:58

no one thinks about the

28:00

fact that, oh, these people

28:02

do love their children and

28:05

it's expressed by this antagonist.

28:07

So, yeah, yeah, and I

28:09

think. there's it's different that you know like you

28:11

can understand something and not abide it at the same

28:14

time you know you can I can understand it but

28:16

I also feel very strongly that part of what sometimes

28:18

gets lost when we talk about abolition is accountability. And

28:20

so it's not that we can just hurt each other,

28:22

harm each other, say whatever we want, and just walk

28:25

through the world sort of unaccountable to each other. So

28:27

I think hand in hand with this worldview is this

28:29

idea that we have to build a social

28:31

fabric that when I hurt you, I'm

28:33

both going to be accountable to and

28:35

I'm going to... take action to ensure

28:37

it doesn't happen again. So when

28:39

it comes to school and what

28:42

we will call like the school

28:44

to prison pipeline and all the

28:46

ways that we incorporate in carceral

28:48

processes and logics in school, including

28:50

suspension and detention and all of

28:52

these things, it's a lack of

28:54

creativity. It's a lack of thinking,

28:56

how else could we organize this

28:58

such that we don't cut off?

29:01

people who have a bad day

29:03

or are, you know, sort of

29:05

wrestling with something and can't express

29:07

why it is so they act

29:09

out in this way. There's examples

29:12

of schools and communities that are

29:14

experimenting with that. And a lot

29:16

of it comes down to, again,

29:19

this prioritization of order and excellence

29:21

over really play and imagination and

29:24

thinking about the fact that oftentimes

29:26

the first things to go from

29:28

many schools when there's budget cuts.

29:31

and art, like the very places

29:33

that people would be able to

29:35

have self-expression. And even our language

29:38

of like black excellence, like as

29:40

something to strive for, has a

29:42

huge underside, you know, going back

29:44

to what we're joking about the

29:47

kind of like Nigerian parents, like

29:49

there's so much that gets lost

29:51

and repressed and discounted when we

29:53

strive for a very narrow form

29:56

of achievement. There's so many forms

29:58

of intelligence and gene. and creativity

30:00

that gets shut down that we

30:02

never never we never get to

30:05

experience because we want everyone to

30:07

sit behind their desk for eight

30:09

hours a day raise their hand

30:12

walk in line you know and

30:14

so part of it is to

30:16

rethink even what we consider education

30:18

and excellence and achievement because everyone

30:21

could ultimately benefit from those changes.

30:23

So I love that idea. But I

30:25

still say I should have been expelled.

30:27

Okay. No, and I'll tell you why.

30:29

So I think this is one of

30:31

the main things that we struggle with in

30:33

society. Unfortunately, we

30:36

are always at the mercy of, you

30:38

know, the average. Right? And that's most

30:40

systems. You're working at the mercy of

30:42

the average. If a car is too

30:45

high, it cannot drive into a parking

30:47

garage. Right? If something is too wide,

30:49

it cannot fit into an aisle. And

30:51

so I think of like schools, schools

30:54

are a crazy novel concept when you

30:56

think about it, right? You designed like one

30:58

building where like a thousand odd people can

31:00

come in and all of them are learning

31:03

and all of them are coming together where

31:05

before it was just like little community, few

31:07

people, you learn what you can, we do

31:09

what we can and we sort of we

31:11

blew this thing out for good and for

31:14

bad, right? So what I mean by I

31:16

should have been expelled, actually agrees

31:18

with a lot of what you're saying.

31:20

I think. that you have to expel

31:22

Trevor from that environment because he's not

31:25

good for that environment. And so I

31:27

think sometimes maybe the word expel has

31:29

a different connotation. I don't think of

31:31

expelled as like, oh, they hurt me.

31:34

I mean, no, they kicked me out.

31:36

Yeah, you got a free day. No,

31:38

and let me tell you why, let

31:40

me tell you why. When you talk

31:42

about accountability, there is no world

31:44

where exclusion will not be part

31:46

of it. It is, it's quite

31:49

impossible. The mere act of singling

31:51

a person out is excluding them

31:53

already. So if you have 10

31:55

kids together, you tell them all to keep

31:57

quiet and draw. One stands up and

31:59

screams. even by saying to

32:01

them, come over here, let me speak to you.

32:03

You have expelled them from the group and

32:05

you have excluded them, right? Now your intention may

32:07

be, oh, I'm gonna make them feel good.

32:09

I'm gonna now encourage them. Hey, maybe you play

32:11

a little bit more. But even when we

32:14

create this new space for them that

32:16

encourages that, they are excluded from the

32:18

group. Cause they go like, no, I wanna be

32:20

in the drawing group. And you're like, no, but

32:22

you're not a drawer. But the teacher having the

32:24

conversation, like bringing them aside to restore them back

32:26

to the group, but it's different from bringing them

32:28

to the side to banish them from the group

32:31

forever. But this is what I don't like. This

32:33

is what I don't like. Restoration, forgiveness. No, you

32:35

guys are trying to brainwash me. This is what

32:37

I don't like. And I mean it. This is

32:39

what I think is the problem is they go,

32:41

let us bring them aside and then we'll try

32:43

and turn them into the drawers. And it's like,

32:45

I'm not saying that. I'm saying, and that's why

32:47

I agree with you in large part of

32:49

what you're saying. And maybe that's why I'm

32:51

a fan of the upside of AI if

32:54

it doesn't kill us all, okay? Is

32:57

because the average needs to be

32:59

the average. This is how any system

33:01

works. You just need to find

33:03

a way for the anomalies to exist. And

33:05

it's hard to cater to all of them. But

33:08

when you exclude somebody, I

33:11

don't believe in trying to get them back

33:13

in. And no, I mean it. I mean,

33:15

because they're not of the in. The

33:17

more you try and put me as Trevor

33:19

back into that classroom, the more I'm going

33:21

to be disruptive. And that's why I love

33:23

imagination. Let me follow record states. You can

33:26

go and see me all. That's why I

33:28

love your book. I love your ideas. I'm

33:30

a big fan of the imagining. Cause I

33:32

go, ah, imagine a world where you could

33:34

have expelled Trevor to a school. Yeah, okay.

33:36

Like they did with Harry Potter and them.

33:38

Essentially a school for the gifted. You go

33:40

like, yo man, you magic kids, you need

33:42

to be separate. All these other kids, they

33:44

don't do magic. We're going to put you

33:46

in a magic school. And then you find

33:48

community in and amongst magic and magicians. Does

33:51

that make sense? So I'm saying you should

33:53

be expelled. And I'm saying what we need

33:55

to imagine is where we take expelled people

33:57

to as opposed to trying to bring them

33:59

back into. a thing. So a

34:01

couple things. One is, you

34:03

know, if the kind of

34:05

phenomena you're describing of people

34:07

being pulled out or expelled,

34:09

let's say if it was

34:11

an equal opportunity expelling, you

34:13

know, where all kids were

34:15

treated with that same, the

34:17

same level of scrutiny, etc.

34:20

That would be one conversation,

34:22

but what you're describing is

34:24

there's a very strong selection

34:26

effect in terms of which

34:28

young people's behavior is deemed

34:30

so troublesome as to warrant expelling.

34:32

We have very stark disparities in

34:34

the percentage of black students, you

34:37

know, native students, etc. who are

34:39

expelling. And if you look country

34:41

by country, there's another level to

34:44

this where the rates of punishment

34:46

that we think of as normal.

34:48

let's say in South Africa or

34:50

the U.S. or etc. somehow magically

34:53

other societies have been able to

34:55

organize their schooling such that they

34:57

don't have those outcomes. They're not

35:00

expelled. So what we normalize and

35:02

think this is the only way we

35:04

can deal with this issue of

35:06

the average and gifted etc. Somehow it's

35:08

not universal. That should be a

35:10

clue for us that it's possible to

35:13

approach education in a way that's not

35:15

like a factory, you know, where

35:17

we're graduating. batches of kids and if

35:19

you don't if you have any

35:21

little problem with the product you have

35:24

to pull it aside and so

35:26

partly is to really rethink our model

35:28

of education that we've inherited as normal

35:30

and say what if we could approach

35:32

things in a way that wasn't so

35:34

mechanical that wasn't so rigid from the

35:36

start right and so and and we

35:39

don't have to you know we don't have

35:41

to come up with scratch because there's

35:43

other places that are already doing this.

35:45

one of the examples that I've discussed

35:47

is how in Finland, like kids, they're

35:49

not really focused on reading and math,

35:51

etc., until the kids are older. They're

35:53

really take place seriously. So the teachers

35:56

are like studying the kids' play, you

35:58

know, and like getting all these. Which

36:00

tells you everything, by the way.

36:02

That's something I've learned from therapists

36:04

and like great teachers. Play tells

36:06

you everything. Play tells you everything. And

36:08

so they're really taking it seriously.

36:11

And what's so kind of paradoxical

36:13

in a way is that when

36:15

they administer these universal tests across

36:17

countries, you know, to rank which

36:19

countries doing better or worse. Yeah. Finland

36:21

out tests all the other countries like not

36:24

focused on testing that's focused on

36:26

play and imagination and expression and cooperation

36:28

and learning how to fight learning how

36:30

to compete you know productive it's not

36:32

like it's not kumbaya it's like how

36:35

do we how do we manage conflicts

36:37

you know if you can't practice that

36:39

as a kid like of course you

36:41

don't have adults that can do that

36:43

if you don't learn how to negotiate

36:46

that when you're younger and you always

36:48

have a teacher to step in and

36:50

say pull this aside, pull Trevor aside,

36:52

expel him, no, let's figure out how

36:54

to conflict and fight productively in a

36:56

way that we can, you know, so

36:58

part of it is to recognize that

37:00

spending time and investing in this actually

37:02

leads to happier, you know, more well-rounded

37:05

human beings and people who can take

37:07

tests if you really care about that,

37:09

you know? When I was sitting looking

37:11

at some of your work, there's one

37:13

question I wanted to ask you, which

37:15

is extremely controversial. I'm going to say

37:17

this ahead of time. But and I'll preface

37:20

it with this I oftentimes

37:22

think to myself that as

37:24

human beings We're searching for

37:26

solutions to real problems We

37:28

very seldom think that we've

37:30

reached the wrong solution Right

37:32

because we have a good intention.

37:35

I really believe most human beings

37:37

do and in looking at some

37:39

of your work your speeches your

37:42

your writing and even society itself

37:44

even some of the things you're

37:46

saying now I found

37:48

myself wondering, and this applies to

37:50

America, and then maybe it'll go

37:53

to other places in a different

37:55

way, because Finland ties in. Do

37:57

you think that integration was the

37:59

right move? Like

38:01

and now I'm separating two things because

38:03

I know in American people like well, of

38:05

course I mean the people where there was

38:08

racism and their segregation and I go yeah,

38:10

no, no, no, I'm separating them Let's separate

38:12

someone being oppressed and someone not being able

38:14

to get a job and someone not being

38:17

able to get a bank loan Let's take

38:19

all of those the negative things away Because

38:21

I'll put myself up personally and say

38:23

I think Whether we're talking about

38:25

gifted kids, who are anomalous, let's

38:27

say, to the norm, whether we're

38:30

talking about, and I mean anything,

38:32

anything that does not fit into

38:34

a category, I think part of

38:36

the reason Finland is able to

38:39

do it is because, have you

38:41

been to Finland? I've been to

38:43

Finland. You know who's in Finland?

38:45

Finnish people. That's it. And because

38:47

they're all finished, there's an idea

38:50

of like, no, we all had in

38:52

the same direction. We all know what

38:54

our actions mean, and that's a really

38:56

powerful thing I've learned in communicating with

38:59

other people. When I'm in a room... with

39:01

anyone where we start to tie together

39:03

multiple things. So if I'm in a

39:05

room with black people, already there's like

39:07

an implicit trust because we know what

39:10

certain actions, words and vibes mean. And

39:12

then you're in a room with another

39:14

African, ah, already. Now even if you

39:16

shout at me, I know what your

39:19

shout means, the same when an Italian

39:21

shout means. Right? I know to, I'm

39:23

prefacing it with a lot because it's

39:25

a loaded question. Yes. But I would

39:28

love to know. if you think integration

39:30

was the right solution, maybe,

39:32

on the other side of, you

39:34

know, what America, of civil rights.

39:36

Yeah, no, I don't. And

39:38

I don't think it's actually

39:40

that controversial when, if you

39:43

understand that segregation and integration.

39:45

weren't the only options. Like

39:47

those are, within those two

39:49

options, it may seem like

39:51

integration is the more progressive.

39:53

Like, of course, we don't

39:55

want segregation. But again, when

39:57

you're being integrated into institutions,

39:59

into a... That's a supremacist culture,

40:01

that's a culture that feeds off

40:03

of hierarchy, that feeds off of

40:05

insecurity, anxiety. Why are we being

40:07

integrated into that? And so part

40:09

of it is to question what

40:12

we're being invited into. And so,

40:14

again, when you think about the

40:16

example of Finnish being homogenous, you

40:18

know, nation states are imagined.

40:20

The national identity is not

40:22

something that is, you

40:24

know, God -given. It's not

40:26

something that, you know, existed

40:28

for eternity. These identities

40:30

were created, maintained, you know,

40:32

made durable over time.

40:34

And so part of stretching

40:36

our imagination is to

40:38

recognize all of the things

40:41

that have been made

40:43

up, but made to seem

40:45

immutable, fixed, you know,

40:47

intrinsic. Including our national sort

40:49

of identities. And so part of

40:51

it is really like to denaturalize the

40:53

things that we take for granted

40:55

as somehow magically operating to make us

40:57

feel connected to each other and

40:59

ask ourselves how else can we be

41:01

connected to engender the sense of

41:03

solidarity where what I want from my

41:05

kids, I also want from my

41:07

neighbor's kids. I want for the kids

41:10

who don't speak English. I want

41:12

for the kids who are just arriving.

41:14

And so, again, to push ourselves

41:16

when you think about expanding our imagination

41:18

to make it more embracing of

41:20

seeming differences that are not intrinsic,

41:22

that are not something that are

41:25

inevitable, you know. My sister -in -law

41:27

lives in Japan. And again, it's

41:29

one of those places that people

41:31

think, oh, you know, it's homogenous.

41:33

It's, you know, from the outside,

41:35

people think everyone is, you know,

41:38

a shared identity. But Japanese of

41:40

Korean descent, among many other groups,

41:42

are treated like shit, you know.

41:44

They're treated, it's discriminated in so

41:46

many different areas of life and education

41:48

and health care. When two people

41:50

go to marry, sometimes their families do

41:53

a deep genealogical dive to find

41:55

any Korean descent in the line before

41:57

they... And so, again, we

41:59

are so... creative in

42:01

creating hierarchies and distinctions

42:03

out of nothing, you know? Why

42:05

can't we channel that creativity to actually

42:07

work in the opposite direction? If

42:09

we're doing it to maintain hierarchies

42:11

and division, perhaps we can do

42:13

it to engender solidarity and connection,

42:15

right? And I think it's a

42:17

choice. When we give up our

42:19

power and think, oh, this is

42:21

something happening to us, we have

42:23

to just navigate this crooked system

42:25

as it is, I think that

42:27

only serves those who are currently

42:29

benefiting from the status quo. And

42:31

so I always have to ask

42:33

myself, who does my pessimism serve?

42:37

I don't know what to say, but that's amazing. This

42:41

is what I'll say to that.

42:43

I think a lot of this

42:45

was inspired by me looking into

42:47

your story, how

42:49

you were raised, the many places

42:51

you were raised, and how I think

42:54

that influenced your life. The

42:57

Marshall Islands, for instance, is

42:59

something, it's funny how sometimes

43:01

in life you start to

43:03

experience a story from

43:05

many different angles at the same time. You know

43:08

how that happens? It might be a TV

43:10

show, it might be a historical event. The Marshall

43:12

Islands for me is because of the Cold

43:14

War. I've just been inundated with Cold War stuff

43:16

in life right now. I don't know why.

43:18

I'm loving it. And now with your story, it

43:20

ties in in a different way because you

43:22

live there with your family and you talk about

43:24

how even growing up, you're in a world

43:26

where this is an American -owned area now and the

43:28

people of that place

43:30

who've been displaced and affected by

43:33

the testing and the military base, they still

43:35

have ideas, they still have dreams, they

43:37

still have hopes, they still have. But it's

43:39

interesting to see how that's affected you.

43:41

And I'd love to know how much

43:43

of you living as an

43:45

outsider everywhere has

43:48

sort of made you want

43:50

to fight for everyone who is

43:52

an outsider. I resonate with the

43:54

statement you made about being in and

43:56

being normal is the luxury, right?

43:58

It's a luxury. to go like, oh,

44:01

this is the way it is. The

44:03

more you moved around as a child,

44:05

the more you're like, oh, wow, there

44:07

is no normal and I have to

44:10

rediscover the normal every single time. So

44:12

was there like one moment and one

44:14

place you moved to as a child

44:16

that stirred this up inside you or?

44:18

What do you think it came from?

44:21

It was definitely a recurring theme. It

44:23

was that kind of thing where, again,

44:25

that distance between how I'm being perceived

44:27

and how I'm experiencing the world. And

44:29

so although on one level, I was

44:32

definitely an outsider in all of these

44:34

places, at the same time, I... carried

44:36

home within me. I didn't need other

44:38

people to make me feel, oh, like

44:41

you belong. It's like, I remember listening

44:43

to LaPita on the show and she's

44:45

talking about, you know, I belong wherever

44:47

I am, you know, and I really

44:49

resonated with that. It's like when you're

44:52

not looking for it from the outside,

44:54

you cultivated within, no one can shake

44:56

it, no one can take it from

44:58

you. And at the same time, being

45:01

in all those places really gave me

45:03

a keen sense that... as human beings,

45:05

like what we think of as our

45:07

world, this is the way things are,

45:09

I can get on a plane and

45:12

move with my family, you know, into

45:14

a completely different, you know, universe and

45:16

it's, you know, all of the things

45:18

that I took for granted in one

45:20

place are different, whether it's racial classifications,

45:23

whether it's who's on top, who's considered

45:25

beautiful or not, you know, like you

45:27

had a great conversation about weight. thinness

45:29

is not fetishized everywhere in the world,

45:32

you know? And so that just tells

45:34

us, oh, this thing that we think

45:36

of as universal and inevitable in a

45:38

different context. There's a whole different set

45:40

of, you know, these parallel realities in

45:43

a way. And I was a sci-fi

45:45

nerd starting about a teenager moving to

45:47

the Marshall Islands, like only thing being

45:49

able to watch a Star Trek and

45:52

realizing, you know, like. we are very

45:54

adept at creating these parallel universes and

45:56

part of it is to be able

45:58

to like step in and out and

46:00

see, okay, this is not working. us

46:03

in this reality that we currently live.

46:05

Why don't we change it? Why don't

46:07

we, you know, work with other, and

46:09

it's not like we have to start

46:11

from scratch. Let me show you, I'll

46:14

peek into this other reality and show

46:16

you they're doing something completely different with

46:18

education or with accountability and safety or

46:20

with health care. And so, you know,

46:23

part of it is not to get

46:25

so locked into one way. of perceiving

46:27

things. And I think that childhood of

46:29

having to move every

46:31

five or six

46:34

years was the

46:36

classroom that I

46:38

needed to be able

46:40

to do that.

46:42

Don't go anywhere

46:44

because we got more

46:47

what now after this? technical

46:49

approach. Like I'm a Ladai.

46:51

He talks a lot about

46:54

like the transformative possibilities of

46:56

AI. I'm terrified. Now I know... And

46:58

also the reality, I mean, if you

47:00

even rewind this exact conversation. Yeah, no,

47:02

it's grounded, but you know, because he's

47:05

as an optimist in nature, he has

47:07

a very optimistic view of AI. And

47:09

I know you'll work with the new

47:12

gym code. You speak a lot

47:14

about like racist robots and all of

47:16

these things. I don't want you to

47:18

feed into my technical idea. I want

47:20

you to describe this world if we

47:22

used our imagination to its fullness. What

47:25

could AI perhaps do for us that's

47:27

really good? You know, I think that

47:29

there are many different types of

47:31

AI, and the one that people

47:33

often think about is artificial intelligence.

47:35

That's the one that people are

47:37

excited about. That's the one getting

47:39

all the funding, all the hype.

47:41

And what I, my little soapbox

47:43

is... to say that there are

47:45

other types of AI that we

47:47

need to be prioritizing, investing in,

47:49

not necessarily to get rid of the

47:51

first kind, the artificial kind, completely,

47:54

but to really put it in

47:56

its place. I personally think it's

47:58

getting too much. space, attention, investment

48:01

as it is. And so

48:03

ancestral intelligence is one thing

48:05

that I think of as

48:07

an important type of AI

48:09

that has to do with

48:11

collective wisdom, know-how, the insights

48:13

and experiences of people who

48:15

have to learn how to

48:17

navigate the underside of society,

48:19

who are constantly buried under

48:21

the rubble of so-called progress.

48:23

So there's the kinds of

48:25

knowledge that grow in that

48:27

rubble that are often... just

48:29

count it as backwards, as no

48:32

longer needed, as in the past,

48:34

that I think we need to

48:36

center. The other type of AI

48:39

is abundant imagination. Like again, going

48:41

back to thinking about what often

48:43

the artificial type of AI is

48:46

displacing our ability to actually use

48:48

our imaginations and creativity rather than

48:51

just plugging in prompts and getting

48:53

the outputs. The other thing is

48:55

that. what appears so efficient and

48:58

convenient and magical about artificial intelligence.

49:00

hides the fact that there are

49:03

people behind these screens that are

49:05

doing the grunt work to make

49:07

these systems work. And this labor

49:09

is outsourced to places like Kenya,

49:12

to places like the Philippines, in

49:14

which workers are there doing the

49:16

content moderation, doing the work that

49:19

on our end seems like, wow,

49:21

this is just a sentient being.

49:23

No, there are armies of labors

49:26

that are making these systems go.

49:28

And they're being mistreated. they're having

49:30

mental health toll because they're often seeing

49:32

the worst of the worst in order

49:35

to clean these systems and the internet.

49:37

So anyone who is a proponent of

49:39

AI, the first kind, artificial, they need

49:42

to have an answer or have a

49:44

reckoning with the human dimensions, the human

49:46

costs, the labor, and also the environmental

49:49

costs of these systems, the energy, the

49:51

water usage, to simply train one algorithm.

49:53

At one point, a study at MIT

49:56

made it said it was equivalent to

49:58

the lifespan of the worst. five

50:00

cars. So it's not to say

50:02

you have to be against it,

50:04

but you need to reckon with

50:07

the costs of creating these systems,

50:09

the human, the environmental, in a

50:11

way that's taken seriously. Yeah,

50:13

I think that's the difficulty

50:15

with AI, right? Is, you know, I've heard

50:17

some people say, AI is like

50:20

the atom bomb. You know, when we

50:22

made the atom bomb, we didn't consider

50:24

all the things. I disagree with that.

50:26

for a few reasons. One, because the

50:29

atom bomb could not think or create

50:31

or do, right? And I used think

50:33

in inverted comments, okay? It could not

50:35

generate, is what I mean. And more

50:38

importantly, the atom bomb had only one use.

50:40

Do you know what I mean? Even when

50:42

they were making it, they weren't like, and

50:44

it'll help you cook your food, no.

50:46

Everyone knew what the bomb was for,

50:49

there was no other intention. The

50:51

difficulty with AI is that we

50:53

have something that puts us on the

50:55

precipice on the precipice. of everything

50:57

that we haven't even imagined, right? So

50:59

here's a simple example, you know, and

51:01

I credit you Christiano with this, like,

51:03

you're the person who came into my

51:06

life kicking down doors. telling me to

51:08

consider women's health more and more and more

51:10

and more you know what I mean like just

51:12

kicking down my door at the daily show

51:14

and being like you know what it is

51:16

to be a woman do you know the pain

51:18

and Demetriosis do you know that and I

51:20

was like man I gotta pay attention to

51:22

this stuff like Christian I was really but in

51:25

a good way because you're my friend you

51:27

know and so I think of the conversations

51:29

I've had with a professor at

51:31

Johns Hopkins Hopkins who has shown

51:33

me the AI that they use to

51:35

detect breast cancer in women long before

51:37

it would have ever been humanly possible

51:40

to detect it and sometimes even more

51:42

importantly to prevent false positives. You know

51:44

many women are getting mastectomies but they

51:46

don't have any type of cancer and

51:49

it's like well thanks for playing folks

51:51

here's the debt here's your health care

51:53

bill and you actually didn't have this

51:55

thing. Yeah. I look at that just in one

51:57

space right I look at it in in in

51:59

the world of education. A teacher is a

52:02

finite resource. You know, AI is

52:04

the first thing we've seen where

52:06

you could genuinely have a teacher

52:08

for your child and it isn't

52:10

tied to the money that your

52:12

child has, right? And I don't

52:14

know some people like, oh, but

52:16

it's still out of reach. It

52:18

is in many ways. It is.

52:20

But the average cost for processing

52:22

a transaction, even in the conversations

52:24

we've had since 2022, has gone

52:26

down 95 percent just cost-wise. So...

52:28

the accessibility has accelerated. And the

52:30

one thing that I keep grappling

52:32

with is this. Yes, we know

52:34

that it's using up energy, because

52:36

it is. It is. But it

52:38

is also the thing that has

52:40

helped data centers optimize how much

52:42

energy they use. And so data

52:44

centers that before were just like

52:46

these little hubs, little ovens cooking

52:48

up all of our cloud information,

52:50

those data centers can save like

52:52

up to like 25, 30% of

52:54

their energy bill. So it's this

52:56

weird situation where. You know, you

52:58

have something that you're making, and

53:00

you have to make the thing

53:02

to try and help you fix

53:04

the thing, and finding that balance

53:06

is where I go. That's the

53:08

real... But the reason I'm optimistic

53:10

about it is because it has

53:12

another use. It has a good

53:14

purpose. And that doesn't discount the

53:16

other things. And one last thing

53:19

I'll say, I'd love to know

53:21

what you think about this real

53:23

well, because I know you are

53:25

a techie like me. It's

53:27

bustable, which is not a word, but

53:29

it's like you can bust it. Okay.

53:31

If you say to me, as Trevor,

53:34

I'm going to put you in front

53:36

of a judge, and this judge is

53:38

going to rule on your life. If

53:40

I go, this judge was biased. The

53:43

judge goes no I want I wasn't

53:45

I wasn't biased we talk about like

53:47

you know We had this back in

53:49

the day, and we still see these

53:52

you type an image black person on

53:54

the internet Oftentimes the image that'll come

53:56

up black man. It'll be a guy

53:58

mugshot dangerous looking Or a chimpanzee or

54:00

chimpanzee. Yes, and then you go white

54:03

man, and we'll show you like, you

54:05

know, an Ivy League, like Abercrombie, and

54:07

Fitch, okay. But what I'm saying is,

54:09

unlike humans, you can actually find that

54:12

and see it and code against it,

54:14

you cannot with humans. I cannot prove

54:16

it with a human. We've lived in

54:18

a world for so long where we've

54:21

gone. You discriminate, and the person's like,

54:23

no, I do not, because we have

54:25

data now. And the data, I'm not

54:27

saying the world becomes perfect, but I'm

54:29

saying it becomes a lot easier to

54:32

get to a more perfect place when

54:34

the thing that we're using is itself

54:36

not personal and then has data that

54:38

we can work off of. And that's

54:41

why I'm hopeful. I'm not a person

54:43

who's like, this is going to be

54:45

the best thing ever. I'm saying there

54:47

are many places that could be better.

54:49

And I'm hopeful because we can catch

54:52

it when it's not in a way

54:54

that with humans we just flat out.

54:56

could not, because you couldn't prove it.

54:58

And I do think, I do think

55:01

that one of the ways that I

55:03

think of these technologies as useful is

55:05

as Trevor described as a mere. Yes.

55:07

But that presumes that people are motivated

55:10

by data and facts and information, like

55:12

by that seeing is believing. And we

55:14

know through studies that have presented hard

55:16

data to people to show them this

55:18

disparity exists, this inequality exists. seeing that

55:21

information or data often has them double

55:23

down on whatever their priors were. You

55:25

know, there was a study out of

55:27

Stanford a few years ago, they presented

55:30

data on incarceration to white Americans in

55:32

San Francisco and New York, said, look

55:34

at these black people being warehouse at

55:36

disproportionate rates in our jails and prisons,

55:39

and when they. were exposed to the

55:41

data, they became more supportive of the

55:43

policies that were creating that effect. Stop

55:45

and frisk in New York, Three Strikes

55:47

Law and California. And so partly is

55:50

to reckon with, yes, these systems can

55:52

be a reflection of society, but the

55:54

facts alone will not save us. This

55:56

is not people. are not simply motivated

55:59

by information, but by stories. But then

56:01

when it comes to like the examples

56:03

you offered, which I think are really

56:05

important, whether in health care, you know,

56:08

you talked about the breast cancer screening

56:10

or an education, more tailored learning, there

56:12

are again studies that are showing that

56:14

Many of these systems are just reproducing

56:16

and hiding existing problems in these institutions

56:19

or in these industries. In health care,

56:21

there was an audit a few years

56:23

ago where they looked at a widely

56:25

used health care algorithm that was discriminating

56:28

against black patients because it was trained

56:30

on data in which doctors were not

56:32

offering adequate services and time to their

56:34

black patients. So the smarter the algorithms

56:37

get, the more racist and sexist they

56:39

often become. Like intelligence is like learning.

56:41

This is how you have. Yeah, not

56:43

inevitably. I think that's the key distinction

56:45

for me. Not inevitable. So there's another.

56:48

counter example, and this is a positive

56:50

one I think that sort of lends

56:52

itself to your optimism, is that a

56:54

group of researchers said, okay, we understand

56:57

this phenomenon, it's getting reproduced in these

56:59

systems. So what they did was trained

57:01

AI, not on doctors, the official medical

57:03

reports, but they trained the system to

57:05

predict what a patient would say about

57:08

their own experience of pain. So the

57:10

AI's intelligence was based on patients' own

57:12

self-report. So it didn't have that anti-black

57:14

bias that is embedded in those doctors'

57:17

reports. So it was not only more

57:19

accurate, but less biased. So this is

57:21

the lesson. It matters where we go

57:23

looking for the data, the knowledge that

57:26

we're training these systems on. If we

57:28

only train them on the official records

57:30

or the official data without being more

57:32

creative and thinking, what is being left

57:34

out? What perspectives aren't in the official?

57:37

that we need to actually train these

57:39

systems on. Then in this case, the

57:41

embodied knowledge of patients who know what

57:43

they're feeling, and whose pain is often

57:46

discounted, we have to turn our attention.

57:48

and be more creative about, again, what

57:50

even counts as knowledge. And so many

57:52

of the things in education are trying

57:55

to predict whether students are going to

57:57

graduate or be successful or whether they're

57:59

at risk and they're reproducing the categories.

58:01

Like if I say, guess which students

58:03

are deemed higher risk by these AI

58:06

systems? You know who that's going to

58:08

be. In my view, rather than pointing

58:10

it to the students, let's figure out

58:12

which adults are creating risks for these

58:15

students. Let's train the AI to figure

58:17

out which fields and departments are creating

58:19

a hostile environment for these young people.

58:21

But we never turn the lens to

58:24

those who actually have the power to

58:26

shape the experience. We always look at

58:28

the most vulnerable and label them and

58:30

stigmatize them. Can I tell you? That's

58:32

just an amazing one to just jump

58:35

in on. Can you imagine, because I

58:37

love this idea now. Imagine if... we

58:39

designed a system, which is not very

58:41

hard. No. And you actually looked at

58:44

judges, actually, if someone goes to this

58:46

judge, they have a higher chance of

58:48

going back into the system. And then,

58:50

I love this, because then you shift

58:52

the blame. So you go, you're like,

58:55

actually, there are 10 judges. These three,

58:57

with their sentencing. We've noticed that the

58:59

people actually don't come back into the

59:01

system and we look at what their

59:04

sentencing is and you're like, oh, these

59:06

judges seem to look at you as

59:08

a human, they're more compassionate, they give

59:10

you, maybe they do, as you said,

59:13

they hold you accountable, but they don't

59:15

think of the most punitive measure, etc,

59:17

etc. etc. So they're still a judge.

59:19

Then we look at another group and

59:21

we're like, hey, you guys on the

59:24

other end, there's these three, these three,

59:26

these three, we've noticed that you incarcerate,

59:28

you incarcerate, you incarcerate, your rate, your

59:30

rate, your rate, has the highest, has

59:33

the highest, has the highest, has the

59:35

highest rate, has the highest rate, has

59:37

the highest rate, has the highest rate

59:39

of recidivism, the highest rate of recidivism,

59:42

So actually, we don't think you're good

59:44

for the system because you don't seem

59:46

to be doing the thing that the

59:48

other judges are doing. And I love

59:50

that idea. I really love that idea.

59:53

Amazing. And so that's and that's why

59:55

I say I think we agree on

59:57

a lot of it because I do

59:59

like that you can do that. So

1:00:02

for instance, here's a simple example. When

1:00:04

we talk about AI, we talk about

1:00:06

this big thing, this massive thing, but

1:00:08

going to some of the things we've

1:00:11

spoken about in this The future is

1:00:13

not going to be one grand AI.

1:00:15

You know, in fact, if you look

1:00:17

at the most of the data, whether

1:00:19

it's religion in the Middle East, whether

1:00:22

it's the histories in the Middle East,

1:00:24

the cultures, but their data set is

1:00:26

going to be more focused on their

1:00:28

world. And many people who work in

1:00:31

the field have said, the future is

1:00:33

not going to be one grand AI.

1:00:35

You know, in fact, if you look

1:00:37

at the most of the data, AGI

1:00:40

looks like, it's just getting people to

1:00:42

put more money in. The real thing

1:00:44

that it looks like, which this is

1:00:46

what I'm hopeful for and optimistic about,

1:00:48

is not that there is an AI.

1:00:51

It is more that every country, for

1:00:53

instance, will be able to have its

1:00:55

AI. Every community will be able to

1:00:57

have its AI. Every community will be

1:01:00

able to have its AI. You know,

1:01:02

so you can go, oh, I'm Nigerian,

1:01:04

I'm Igbo, I'm this, I'm gonna put

1:01:06

all these pieces together. And my AI

1:01:08

within the context of my context of

1:01:11

my people have been. And I think.

1:01:13

That for me is like one of

1:01:15

the most magical ideas of context contributing

1:01:17

to culture. Does that make sense? Yeah.

1:01:20

I can't really, I'm, but you know,

1:01:22

you know me, I'm just scared of

1:01:24

the machine. By the way, what's your

1:01:26

favorite tech? Are you, are you still

1:01:29

techie or did you switch it out

1:01:31

for all books? You just went for

1:01:33

books. No, I know you have a

1:01:35

lot of books. I'm still hybrid, I'm

1:01:37

hybrid, yeah. I don't know what I

1:01:40

would say, you know, I'll, actually, I'll

1:01:42

tell you, I just came out, for

1:01:44

a VR. I've written about it and

1:01:46

how it's manipulated and used for like

1:01:49

trauma porn, etc. But I'm collaborating with

1:01:51

an amazing team that's working on a

1:01:53

project called Phoenix of Gaza. It's a

1:01:55

VR exhibit that has footage from the

1:01:58

last few years in Gaza before the

1:02:00

devastation. Many cultural everyday activities, weddings, sewing

1:02:02

groups, children playing, people doing po-sharing, and

1:02:04

also now in the aftermath of this

1:02:06

genocide. And so this is where you

1:02:09

enter the world. It's very different from

1:02:11

seeing something on film or on screen.

1:02:13

Like the kids are looking at you

1:02:15

eye to eye. Like you're standing over

1:02:18

the shoulder of a teenager reciting poetry

1:02:20

passionately. You're with a little boy on

1:02:22

a skateboard going on the beach. He

1:02:24

has the camera and you're riding with

1:02:27

him. And so this experience of... entering

1:02:29

this world is one thing, but it's

1:02:31

the fact that it's created by and

1:02:33

for Palestinians. And I think it matters

1:02:35

who's creating these technologies with what values

1:02:38

and goals in mind. Like, you know,

1:02:40

the stories that they're telling are about

1:02:42

preservation. It's about rebuilding. It's about having

1:02:44

now the footage of churches that have

1:02:47

been demolished, moss that have been demolished.

1:02:49

but having the architecture there, you know,

1:02:51

in this 360 camera with the idea

1:02:53

that we are going to go home

1:02:56

and we are going to rebuild this.

1:02:58

And so the Phoenix of Gaza XR

1:03:00

project is one of the few, you

1:03:02

know, of these kind of emerging technology

1:03:04

projects that I think of as truly

1:03:07

liberatory in that the goal is to,

1:03:09

you know, engender self-determination and cultural preservation

1:03:11

and a return, a right to return.

1:03:13

I've been wrestling with this idea and

1:03:16

some of it has been inspired by

1:03:18

conversations, some of it has just been

1:03:20

reading, learning, etc. about how much responsibility

1:03:22

everybody bears for how they frame every

1:03:24

single conversation they have, right? And the

1:03:27

reason I think about it is because,

1:03:29

you know, in our conversation, we've touched

1:03:31

on ideas of intention, culture, power, perception,

1:03:33

you know, all of these things. And

1:03:36

I can't help but think about... Israel,

1:03:38

Palestine, and how when I've sat down

1:03:40

with people who are pro-Israel, Israeli, or

1:03:42

Jewish and Jewish-American, what's been interesting to

1:03:45

me is see being how different or

1:03:47

how different Lee people are hearing the

1:03:49

same thing. Do you know what I

1:03:51

mean? So here's a simple one, not

1:03:53

the simple issue, but like just an

1:03:56

example. You know, there's a chant that

1:03:58

people often say, from the river to

1:04:00

the sea, Palestine shall be free. For

1:04:02

anyone I know who's Palestinian. When I've

1:04:05

asked them, what does that chant mean?

1:04:07

They say, well, we want freedom for

1:04:09

all our people, not just in Gaza,

1:04:11

but from the West Bank. We want

1:04:14

freedom for everyone. Yeah, from the River

1:04:16

Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea, we want

1:04:18

our freedom. And that's what we chant.

1:04:20

And then when I've spoken to my

1:04:22

friends who are Jewish or Israeli, maybe,

1:04:25

and not even religious Jew or whatever,

1:04:27

but Jewish, they go, no, this is

1:04:29

a chance of genocide. They're saying from

1:04:31

the river to the sea they're going

1:04:34

to cleanse us. What is what stands

1:04:36

in the way of the river and

1:04:38

the sea? It's Israel and And I

1:04:40

can't help but have compassion for anyone

1:04:43

I speak to in this because it

1:04:45

in some ways like in South Africa

1:04:47

We've had stories like this where there

1:04:49

was a struggle song and a chant

1:04:51

That was sung by black people who

1:04:54

were fighting against an apartheid government and

1:04:56

then now that song Some people feel

1:04:58

like targets them if they're a white

1:05:00

person who's a farmer in the country

1:05:03

and then the person singing it goes

1:05:05

like no no no no it's not

1:05:07

about that and I couldn't help but

1:05:09

think about like how many times Nelson

1:05:11

Mandela would give a speech. And at

1:05:14

times I would think it was unnecessary

1:05:16

but he would say he would go

1:05:18

like I am not for the oppression

1:05:20

of black people and he's like and

1:05:23

I'm against the oppression of white people.

1:05:25

And I'll be like, well, that's an

1:05:27

unnecessary, why would you need to say?

1:05:29

I used to think that all the

1:05:32

time when I'd hear it. And then

1:05:34

now I find myself wondering, how much

1:05:36

burden should we bear? Like, how much

1:05:38

should we be cognizant of how we

1:05:40

are saying what we are saying? Because

1:05:43

the fights are still going to happen.

1:05:45

But we almost want the more. most

1:05:47

clarity to be fighting about the thing

1:05:49

we actually, or arguing or discussing the

1:05:52

thing we actually need to be discussing.

1:05:54

Does this make sense? Because you would

1:05:56

think it's not necessary for Nelson Mandela

1:05:58

to say that he does not want

1:06:01

white people to be oppressed. But then

1:06:03

you realize that if he, Black Lives

1:06:05

Matter is a good example and all

1:06:07

these things. If you do not say

1:06:09

that at times, and even if you

1:06:12

do, because he was labeled a terrorist,

1:06:14

let's not forget that. There are some

1:06:16

people who go, wait, wait, you don't

1:06:18

want black oppression, so what about white

1:06:21

oppression? And it's amazing to me that

1:06:23

he thought about, there was no social

1:06:25

media. Now someone else wasn't on Facebook,

1:06:27

or this was long before this time,

1:06:30

but he intuitively knew that he has

1:06:32

to say, I don't want black people

1:06:34

to be oppressed. However, this does not

1:06:36

mean that I want white people to

1:06:38

be oppressed either. I'm against all oppression.

1:06:41

And so I'd love to know. Yeah.

1:06:43

I love that because you can interpret

1:06:45

that as you know him sort of

1:06:47

pacifying or conceding to this sort of

1:06:50

white fragility let's say, but you could

1:06:52

also understand it going back to how

1:06:54

we started the conversation about you know,

1:06:56

sort of what we're being integrated into,

1:06:59

is that oftentimes we've seen when an

1:07:01

oppressed group gets power, they reproduce the

1:07:03

same forms of domination that they were

1:07:05

once resisting. And so part of it

1:07:07

is the fact that his historical imagination

1:07:10

is so keen that he knows that

1:07:12

it's not... out of bounds to think

1:07:14

that, oh, if this is all you've

1:07:16

known, this is how you've seen power

1:07:19

exercise, that's all you've known, then once

1:07:21

you seize it, you are very likely

1:07:23

going to mimic or reproduce exactly what

1:07:25

you were against. And so part of

1:07:27

it is really to think about, you

1:07:30

know, not just who is doing the

1:07:32

action or saying the words, but really

1:07:34

what are the logics behind it? And

1:07:36

so language, you know, is a kind

1:07:39

of technology in that way that can

1:07:41

be wielded. in various ways. My own

1:07:43

sort of approach is really to try

1:07:45

to stay keenly attuned to those who

1:07:48

are you know oppressed and any situation

1:07:50

and thinking about, you know, language from

1:07:52

that perspective. I just came from a

1:07:54

conference where after I gave my talk,

1:07:56

there was a backlash because people I

1:07:59

guess don't like. using the word genocide

1:08:01

to describe what's happening to Palestinians. And

1:08:03

so I said, but I also had

1:08:05

a slide there about caste and caste

1:08:08

hierarchies. I was born in India, and

1:08:10

there's an image that I show of

1:08:12

Dalit protesters, saying caste is evil. And

1:08:14

I said, you know, upper caste people

1:08:17

who see that, I'm sure that makes

1:08:19

them very uncomfortable. They're opposed to it.

1:08:21

You know, I talk about how religion

1:08:23

is used to naturalize caste and make

1:08:25

it's ancient and... inevitable and cultural, right?

1:08:28

And so I said, you know, the

1:08:30

differences is those people, the upper cast

1:08:32

who might be opposed to me. showing

1:08:34

that and talking about that, they don't

1:08:37

currently have the power to impose their

1:08:39

worldview on me. And I think it's

1:08:41

a kind of hubris and it's a

1:08:43

kind of supremacist thinking that you can

1:08:46

tell me or tell an oppressed group

1:08:48

how they can talk about their own

1:08:50

oppression. You know, that is itself a

1:08:52

symptom of supremacist thinking and hubris that

1:08:54

I think people need to reflect on

1:08:57

themselves. No, and I agree with that,

1:08:59

but I think... Even in trying to

1:09:01

channel let's say an argument someone might

1:09:03

have they would go yes But you

1:09:06

are not in that situation. So I'm

1:09:08

not telling them how to say it

1:09:10

I'm saying to you as the person

1:09:12

who's not in the situation That your

1:09:15

language is dangerous. Does this make sense?

1:09:17

Yeah, I know I completely understand and

1:09:19

and and that's I and I mean

1:09:21

this when I say a wrestle I

1:09:23

think it's a tool for censorship though.

1:09:26

So it's interesting you say this yeah

1:09:28

because that's how I feel like I

1:09:30

think about it's in many different... Because

1:09:32

I can't tell them how to articulate

1:09:35

their experience. Exactly. Do you understand? So

1:09:37

like if we convert that, if we

1:09:39

say, well, I believe it's a genocide,

1:09:41

this is a chance that I choose

1:09:43

to use as an ally, why then

1:09:46

in turn say, well your language is

1:09:48

problematic and it's insulting to me, I'm

1:09:50

not allowed to do that. And unlike

1:09:52

my view... is it's like if we

1:09:55

really do have free speech, if we

1:09:57

have freedom of thought and expression and

1:09:59

views, everything is fair game. You know,

1:10:01

you know my favorite saying, racist have

1:10:04

outlets too. It's the fact that like

1:10:06

people should be free to say what

1:10:08

they... like and I resent that policing

1:10:10

instinctively on either side. It tells you

1:10:12

a lot about power, who can impose

1:10:15

their language on others, who can get

1:10:17

people fired for using certain language or

1:10:19

saying certain things. Whether that's the word

1:10:21

genocide or a child. No, no, no,

1:10:24

no, but actually that's a, I agree

1:10:26

with you on that. Yeah. I think

1:10:28

that's a different thing that I'm speaking

1:10:30

to. No, no, no, no, no, because,

1:10:33

because I think so many of these

1:10:35

things overlap, overlap, you know. Like it's

1:10:37

the Venn diagram again of issues. So

1:10:39

for instance, to play, Devils Advocate or

1:10:41

whatever, there are many conservative people in

1:10:44

America who have said, it's interesting how

1:10:46

if that person, the person who is

1:10:48

black, gay, trans, whatever, if they say

1:10:50

something about me or my group or

1:10:53

whatever, they can say it, but if

1:10:55

I say something, even questioning. You know,

1:10:57

I just wonder like should a trans

1:10:59

child be converted at this age? I

1:11:02

am then labeled as transfer and I'm

1:11:04

fired from my job and it's exactly

1:11:06

what you're saying by the way. They

1:11:08

go. But I was not trying to

1:11:10

be inflammatory. I was trying to ask

1:11:13

a question and the person goes, no,

1:11:15

by even asking that question, you are,

1:11:17

you are enabling the idea. And they

1:11:19

go like, well, what are you doing

1:11:22

to me? And then their job goes,

1:11:24

hey, we have to let you go

1:11:26

because you're transphobic. I've always kind of

1:11:28

thought that's a straw man argument, just

1:11:30

because if we look at the state

1:11:33

of society today and who has actual

1:11:35

power, you know, these people aren't talking

1:11:37

about freedom of freedom of speech. seem

1:11:39

to be the most radical, especially if

1:11:42

we think about it. The people who

1:11:44

bear the most consequences? The brunt of

1:11:46

the consequences have the more radical view.

1:11:48

Which I think is normal in the

1:11:51

society. Right now, it's very hard to

1:11:53

find a professor on probation for being

1:11:55

pro-Israel. Let's be clear. In this moment,

1:11:57

inside, yes, and that's what I'm saying.

1:11:59

on probation for being pro- Palestine. And

1:12:02

it's the chance of the people who

1:12:04

align with Palestine who are being censored

1:12:06

and are saying it's making me uncomfortable.

1:12:08

Right. So you see on that part,

1:12:11

I'm saying that is clearer to me,

1:12:13

right? Because whether we like it or

1:12:15

not, throughout history, those who have power.

1:12:17

have used their power to protect themselves.

1:12:20

And I mean, this seems like a

1:12:22

natural human inclination. Like, it would be

1:12:24

weird for a person without power, with

1:12:26

power to not use it. You'd be

1:12:28

a very interesting type of person. I'd

1:12:31

love to meet. Please send us an

1:12:33

email so we can talk to you.

1:12:35

No, I'm speaking to something different. Like,

1:12:37

Ruard, I'd love to know even from

1:12:40

your experiences. Were there moments where you

1:12:42

were able to either facilitate or notice

1:12:44

a breakthrough in the communication that the

1:12:46

kids on campus were having with each

1:12:49

other? That's what I'm talking more about.

1:12:51

The ramifications of your speech are a

1:12:53

separate issue. And who gets to decide

1:12:55

is a separate issue. I'm just talking

1:12:57

about with us as people. When we

1:13:00

say something and how we say it,

1:13:02

how much responsibility do we bear to

1:13:04

clarify? And then also... because you've been

1:13:06

in like literally the hotbed of it

1:13:09

in America in many ways. Have you

1:13:11

seen anything that was a glimpse of

1:13:13

hope? Have you seen a conversation or

1:13:15

or a you know an idea where

1:13:18

you went, oh wow, as a sociologist,

1:13:20

you know, as a MacArthur genius, you

1:13:22

were even surprised. by the effect that

1:13:24

it had? I would say the most

1:13:26

heartening and the most, it surprises the

1:13:29

wrong word, but the breakthrough that you

1:13:31

might say that I've observed, is not

1:13:33

about this kind of like this kind

1:13:35

of liberal speech exchange where we understand

1:13:38

the other person's perspective, but it's been

1:13:40

seeing specifically how Jewish students. have stood

1:13:42

with many others in terms of being

1:13:44

against genocide and so that it doesn't

1:13:46

break down neatly along identity lines that

1:13:49

they are able to understand. not despite

1:13:51

their Jewishness, but because of their Jewishness,

1:13:53

they're able to articulate how their values

1:13:55

as Jews actually motivates their understanding that

1:13:58

somehow this radical notion that all life

1:14:00

is sacred, that their well-being, their security

1:14:02

should not be at the expense of

1:14:04

anyone else. Like that to me has

1:14:07

been the most heartening way in which.

1:14:09

things are not reduced to identity and

1:14:11

they don't simply live at the realm

1:14:13

of speech but at the realm of

1:14:15

action like people actually Jewish students putting

1:14:18

their own you know their own status

1:14:20

and and well-being on the line in

1:14:22

order to stand in solidarity so I

1:14:24

would point to that as a place

1:14:27

where you know we're breaking old patterns

1:14:29

right I often wonder to myself you

1:14:31

know I wrote this thought down It

1:14:33

applies to everything, the world of tech.

1:14:36

Ruja, when I've read your work, you

1:14:38

know, talking about who designs the tech

1:14:40

that shapes our lives, there was a...

1:14:42

a professor who's really well acclaimed or

1:14:44

like a researcher scientist and he said,

1:14:47

you know, and I paraphrase, like the

1:14:49

problem with having women in the lab

1:14:51

is that they're distracting and they're beautiful

1:14:53

and you fall in love with them

1:14:56

and they make, you know, they, you

1:14:58

know, they, and it was just like,

1:15:00

well, these ladies, they, I can't think

1:15:02

about the test tubes when I'm thinking

1:15:05

of fallopian tubes, you know, like that

1:15:07

kind of vibe, you know? And I

1:15:09

was listening to that, and I was

1:15:11

listening to that, and I was listening

1:15:13

to that, and I was listening to

1:15:16

that, and I was listening to that,

1:15:18

and I was listening to that, and

1:15:20

I was listening to that, and I

1:15:22

was listening to that, and I was

1:15:25

listening to, and I was listening to,

1:15:27

and I was listening to, and I

1:15:29

was listening to, and I was listening

1:15:31

to, and I was listening to, and

1:15:34

I was listening to, and I was

1:15:36

listening to, and I was, and I

1:15:38

was, and I was, I was, But

1:15:40

I found myself thinking about how every

1:15:42

group is affected by another group in

1:15:45

some way, shape, or form, and to

1:15:47

your point of imagination, can we imagine

1:15:49

other ways to do the thing, or

1:15:51

is homogeny and sameness the only way

1:15:54

to achieve it? Right? Because I think

1:15:56

of, let's say, schools, at the lowest

1:15:58

level, like, even before, sort of like

1:16:00

people are formed. You see these little

1:16:02

kids where they show that if girls

1:16:05

are in a class with boys, they

1:16:07

perform less... Oh yeah, you know I'm

1:16:09

very pro-girl school. Yeah, you are. I

1:16:11

have a product of the girls school.

1:16:14

I don't know, what I found myself

1:16:16

thinking about is, is there something to

1:16:18

be said to the idea of like

1:16:20

creating more of as opposed to trying

1:16:23

to jam everybody more in? Does this

1:16:25

make sense? Yes. Yes. And I know...

1:16:27

Someone might hear me say this and

1:16:29

go like what? So you're saying we

1:16:31

should have like a women only lab?

1:16:34

Maybe is what I'm saying. I'm saying

1:16:36

I don't know by the way. I'm

1:16:38

just saying like what would happen because

1:16:40

that guy's not wrong. Like even in

1:16:43

war. But Trevor, it's going to be

1:16:45

tough for you mixed race people, isn't

1:16:47

it? Oh, don't worry about us. Don't

1:16:49

worry about us. Dominican, Nigerian, Puerto Rican,

1:16:52

Brazilian, British, American politics. They're going to

1:16:54

be the only ones in the last.

1:16:56

Yes, but can I tell you something?

1:16:58

And I'll tell you, I have believed

1:17:00

in this for a long time, I

1:17:03

still do. I believe adversity is your

1:17:05

friend if you are taught to deal

1:17:07

with it. You know, I talked to

1:17:09

you all the time about anti-frigility, anti-frigility

1:17:12

as opposed, anti-frigility as opposed, anti-frigility as

1:17:14

opposed, as opposed, as opposed, as opposed,

1:17:16

just, just, just, just, just, just, just,

1:17:18

just, just, just resilience, just resilience, With

1:17:21

a group of like former military, you

1:17:23

know, I don't know what they where

1:17:25

they served and how I think was

1:17:27

even from different countries and they talked

1:17:29

about how They were less efficient and

1:17:32

less able to do their jobs if

1:17:34

they were serving with women and not

1:17:36

in like these people weren't being shitty

1:17:38

by the way They just gave me

1:17:41

a new perspective, you know, they weren't

1:17:43

like women shouldn't be in the military

1:17:45

They were like can I be honest

1:17:47

with you when I'm in a gun

1:17:49

fight? I'm like, damn, we've got to

1:17:52

make sure she's also, because when we're

1:17:54

picking up the backpacks and we're running

1:17:56

and then I'm thinking of her, the

1:17:58

weight that she's carrying it. And some

1:18:01

of it, I know some of it

1:18:03

will tap into like patriarchy, some of

1:18:05

it will tap into, but some of

1:18:07

it also taps into the very real

1:18:10

thing that human beings have, where a

1:18:12

mother will care more for a child

1:18:14

than she will for an adult, you

1:18:16

know what I mean? instinctively as people

1:18:18

sometimes we act differently in an environment.

1:18:21

And so I just wonder, even for

1:18:23

you talking about the sisterhood, what do

1:18:25

you think is so important about finding

1:18:27

spaces where people who are alike can

1:18:30

come together without those spaces being exclusionary?

1:18:32

Because it's a paradox. Yeah. And so

1:18:34

I think, you know, it's like when

1:18:36

I talk about the sisterhoods always with

1:18:39

an I to what... often gets assumed

1:18:41

about the sisterhood. For me, the value

1:18:43

of bringing together everyone that seems the

1:18:45

same on one level. is that you

1:18:47

immediately realize how different you are. So

1:18:50

for me, the great value of my

1:18:52

Spelman education is I realized how much

1:18:54

difference and hierarchy there is among black

1:18:56

women, whether it's because of skin tone,

1:18:59

region, where you're born, your class, your

1:19:01

religion, your sexuality. And so the value

1:19:03

is to actually undo the notion that

1:19:05

we're all alike and that you actually

1:19:08

get to wrestle deeply with the fault

1:19:10

lines that you often don't have. to

1:19:12

get to do in predominantly white settings

1:19:14

because you have to band together. And

1:19:16

so the value of it is not

1:19:19

to relish in some idealized notion of

1:19:21

shared identity, but to actually say crap.

1:19:23

Like we have all of these issues

1:19:25

that we never ever get to deal

1:19:28

with because we always have to have

1:19:30

this false sense of unity and sameness,

1:19:32

right? And so there is definitely a

1:19:34

function for that. I would love to

1:19:37

know, like, you know, it's a big

1:19:39

thing, but from yourself personally, and then

1:19:41

what you see. hopefully unfolding or what

1:19:43

you see realistically unfolding in the landscape

1:19:45

of education. I'm terrible at prognostication and

1:19:48

prediction in part because that's what a

1:19:50

real sociologist. None of them do it.

1:19:52

I'm not doing it. No, I love

1:19:54

it. I love it. But it's also

1:19:57

like that's the whole, like so much

1:19:59

of AI is about prediction and it's

1:20:01

it closes off possibilities in my view,

1:20:03

like closes off, you know. futures when

1:20:05

we try to predict everything. And so

1:20:08

part of it is like. You know,

1:20:10

we think about these institutions, what we've

1:20:12

been experiencing, I think is like pulling

1:20:14

back the curtain on what was already

1:20:17

there to begin with. It just has

1:20:19

become more manifest to like these interests

1:20:21

of big donors, for example. There was

1:20:23

always there manipulating things behind the scenes,

1:20:26

but now it's come to stark light

1:20:28

because of the protest. So I feel

1:20:30

like in this moment, it's an opportunity

1:20:32

to be truthful about what these institutions

1:20:34

are about, what our own complicity. and

1:20:37

obligations are, and to act on those

1:20:39

truths, rather than feeling disillusioned or we're

1:20:41

going backwards somehow, really thinking about who

1:20:43

we join in community with to actually

1:20:46

build the world. And the world is

1:20:48

not some grand thing, but like the

1:20:50

micro worlds, the reality that we have

1:20:52

to function in. And I would say

1:20:55

one thing that gives me hope is

1:20:57

that I'm in a department within a

1:20:59

larger institution that is acting on different

1:21:01

values, where we're not trying to be

1:21:03

stars. but we're trying to cultivate a

1:21:06

constellation, a community in which we're in

1:21:08

this together. And so I feel tangibly

1:21:10

that it's possible to do things differently,

1:21:12

even if the dominant culture of whatever

1:21:15

industry or institution we're in is moving

1:21:17

in one direction. We have the power,

1:21:19

especially when we band together and we

1:21:21

work together to actually create a different

1:21:24

way of doing things, perhaps like a

1:21:26

seed that can grow and become a

1:21:28

model for something that we want to

1:21:30

develop over time. Wow, that's

1:21:33

amazing from saying maybe you won't have

1:21:35

something and then you had it all

1:21:37

I know Thank you so much for

1:21:39

joining us pleasure pleasure. Yeah, I can't

1:21:41

wait to see where your where your

1:21:43

journey takes you We'll be will be

1:21:45

following keenly reading the books listening to

1:21:47

what you say and hopefully you'll come

1:21:49

and join us again Absolutely, thanks for

1:21:51

having me both of you. Thank you.

1:21:53

Thank you for coming. Thank you for

1:21:56

coming. Bye What

1:22:01

Now Now Trevanoa is produced by

1:22:03

Spotify Studios in partnership with

1:22:05

Day with Productions. The show

1:22:07

is show is by Trevonoa, produced

1:22:09

by Trevanoa Sinaz Yamine and Our senior

1:22:11

producer is Jess producer is Jess

1:22:13

Hackle. our producer. producer. Music, mixing and

1:22:15

mastering by Hanis Brown. Thank Thank you

1:22:17

so much for listening.

1:22:20

Join me next Thursday for

1:22:22

another episode of What

1:22:24

Now. of What Now. Productions.