0:00

This message is a paid partnership

0:02

with Apple card. One of my

0:04

favorite things to have on hand these

0:06

days is my Apple card. It's made

0:08

to be simple and private and

0:10

getting it was pretty simple too.

0:12

It takes minutes to apply. Check

0:15

your credit limit offer and start

0:17

using it right away with Apple

0:19

pay. You could apply for it while

0:21

waiting in line to get coffee and then

0:23

use it to buy your coffee. Also

0:25

like that you can get up to 3%

0:27

daily cash back on every purchase, which can

0:30

be put into a high-yield savings account that

0:32

you can open through Apple card. So, you

0:34

can really put your money to work.

0:36

Apply in the wallet app on your iPhone

0:38

and start using Apple card right

0:40

away. Subject to credit approval,

0:42

savings is available to Apple card

0:45

owners, subject to eligibility. Savings and

0:47

Apple card by Goldman Sachs Bank

0:50

USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Member

0:52

FDIC, Terms and more at Apple

0:54

card.com. Like

0:58

I always said and I mean this is something

1:00

that I learned in South Africa because we

1:03

have such a large Nigerian population I always

1:05

go like Nigerians were the first Africans who

1:07

taught me to believe in myself. Do you

1:09

know what I mean? Like every other African

1:11

that I met always had like a certain

1:13

level of like How are you doing? I

1:15

was like, I'm okay. You know, I'm fine. Like, you

1:17

know, we even say in South Africa, we'll be

1:19

like, ah, yang nang, which means I'm almost like

1:21

I'm begging. I'm begging my way through. I, hey,

1:24

you know, I'm getting by. I try. You know,

1:26

and Nigerian, I remember, like, you know, I'm getting

1:28

by. I, you know, I try. I, you know,

1:30

and Nigerian, I remember, I remember, like, I remember,

1:33

like, I remember, like, I remember, like, I remember,

1:35

like, like, like, like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

1:37

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

1:39

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I try, I'm, I try, I'm,

1:41

I'm, I'm, I try, I This

1:44

is what now with Trevanoa

1:46

This episode is brought to

1:48

you by National Education Association

1:51

Any A's read across

1:54

America campaign celebrates a

1:56

nation of diverse readers

1:58

with recommend books, authors,

2:00

and teaching resources that

2:02

promote diversity and inclusion.

2:04

However, certain politicians are

2:07

banning books with characters

2:09

representing diverse perspectives and

2:11

experiences, including books about

2:13

Martin Luther King and

2:15

the Trail of Tears. But let's

2:17

be honest, all students deserve

2:19

access to diverse, age-appropriate books.

2:21

So, help us celebrate and protect the

2:24

joy of reading for all of

2:26

America's students. Learn more at

2:28

Read Across America. this episode is

2:30

brought to you by ultra running ultra

2:32

makes performance running shoes that

2:35

are insanely comfortable with a roomy

2:37

toe box and zero to low drop

2:39

this helps keep your feet in a

2:41

more natural position so you can move

2:43

how you were designed to perfect for

2:45

the road trail or gym you could

2:47

wear them for miles and forget that

2:49

they're there stay out there with ultra

2:51

try ultra for yourself with a free

2:53

30 day trial and free shipping at

2:55

ultra running. Why?

3:03

You don't look tired? You

3:05

look fantastic. How are you?

3:07

I'm well. I'm tired. I'm

3:09

tired. You don't know. Seven.

3:12

You know? Hello, Trara. How

3:14

are you? I'm well. I'm tired.

3:16

I'm tired. I don't look tired.

3:18

You look great. You look

3:20

fantastic. But wait, wait. Tired.

3:23

Tired. Tired. Tied from life

3:25

or tired? No, I always

3:27

feel like you should ask

3:29

you should ask people. How

3:32

are you. But what they mean

3:34

is, I'm exhausted. No, you're about

3:36

to take their own life. No,

3:38

no, no, no, why we don't

3:40

think of it like that. I'm

3:42

on book tour. I've been traveling.

3:44

That's what I mean. I just

3:46

assumed you would know that's what I

3:48

meant. I don't assume you would

3:50

know that that's what I meant.

3:52

I don't assume anything when people

3:54

tell me how they are. Some

3:57

people, some people are, they just

3:59

like, they are. They're like, I love

4:01

getting out then, meeting the people. No, I

4:03

do, I mean, but after five days of

4:05

doing that when you haven't really slept,

4:07

and I don't sleep well when I'm

4:10

traveling, I don't sleep well in strange

4:12

places, I'm in hotel rooms and I

4:14

left Seattle at 430 this morning. Oh,

4:16

okay, yeah, then you should be tired.

4:18

Yeah, so, so I'm not at all

4:21

suggesting that I don't like meeting my

4:23

fans because I actually do. Yeah. But

4:25

it's, but it's a good problem problem

4:27

to have to have so. Sometimes

4:30

I think the phrase good problem

4:32

robs us. of our ability to

4:34

like feel what we feel. Like,

4:36

you know what I mean? Sometimes

4:38

people will say it to you

4:40

almost like you're not allowed to

4:42

feel something because of the position

4:44

you're in relative to another position.

4:46

They have to be grateful for

4:49

the problem. Yeah, yeah. People are

4:51

like, wow, but these are good

4:53

problems. They're like, no, no, no,

4:55

it's just a problem. Just say it

4:57

sucks. I don't think it needs to be

4:59

a good one. Yes. But I kind of

5:01

like that I have the problem. Okay, okay.

5:04

Which is to say that I kind

5:06

of like that people are interested in

5:08

the book. Right? If they weren't, I

5:10

would not be traveling for the book.

5:12

So... But I don't think, well... Yeah, but

5:14

I think when you say a good problem,

5:17

you're already saying the problem

5:19

part, no? I think if somebody said

5:21

that to me, I would not take

5:23

it well. Okay, you do not get

5:25

to decide for me what my good

5:27

problem is. Oh, no, no, then we're

5:29

on the same page. Okay, no, no.

5:32

Because sometimes it's like this, you have to,

5:34

to embrace humility, you

5:36

have to like coach, couch everything you

5:38

say and, yes. It's this, but, but

5:40

I'm grateful, you know, that thing that

5:42

you have to do, but sometimes

5:44

you have to do, but

5:46

sometimes you have. Speak. Okay.

5:48

Oh, by the report, you're

5:50

a fresh one if you want.

5:52

Thank you. Right now we put

5:54

it. It's up to you. I

5:57

got this from Seth Myers.

5:59

Oh. Christian and I were

6:01

chatting earlier about, first of all, your

6:04

name and the fact that you are, I

6:06

think in many ways, a dying breed,

6:08

right? You said a beautiful, you

6:10

said a literary giant. You just

6:12

go Chimamanda and people are like, oh,

6:15

oh wow, okay. You just have to

6:17

say one name. Yeah, it's like being

6:19

Beyonce, but in the world of

6:21

books. Do you know what I mean?

6:24

There's no denying any type of art

6:26

that comes with fame, then comes

6:28

with the pressure. And in a weird

6:30

way, I feel like art, for the most

6:32

part, not to be high for lute and

6:34

about it, but like, art is almost

6:36

supposed to be like bumping up against

6:38

things all the time. It's sort of,

6:41

it's accepted but not accepted, challenging, but

6:43

you know, but still accessible. It's like

6:45

in this weird space. How do you

6:48

feel about your fame relative to what

6:50

you're doing? Like do you feel it

6:52

hinders you or do you feel like

6:54

it liberates you? Neither. But hold on.

6:57

So, but do you think, so

6:59

are you suggesting that fame means

7:01

somehow that fame corrupts art? So

7:03

I think what happens oftentimes is

7:05

fame interferes with how art can

7:08

be perceived. That's what I think it

7:10

does, right? So I'll speak through the

7:12

lens of, let's say, stand up comedy

7:14

alone. Any comedian who's like word

7:16

their salt will tell you the difference

7:19

in how an audience perceives a perspective

7:21

or a joke when the person when

7:23

the comedian is famous is very different

7:25

Because now they're not listening to what

7:27

you're saying They're trying to listen to it

7:29

through the lens of them having a perception or

7:31

an idea of who you are and where you

7:33

are in relation to them So they don't go

7:36

funny not funny insightful not insightful. They'll

7:38

go that's that's that's stupid for you

7:40

and I'm like what you mean that's

7:42

stupid for me If I told, I would have told

7:44

that joke 10 years ago, although I like that style

7:47

of joke, and they'd be like, yeah, but come on,

7:49

you're Trevor Noah, and I'm like, no, no, you see,

7:51

that's where I feel like you're making the mistake. Like

7:53

if you make a joke about traffic, people like, well,

7:55

you can get a helicopter, which I often say. Exactly.

7:58

You love saying that. You love saying it. No, but

8:00

I mean, I think of it like,

8:02

like, you know, and sometimes we only

8:04

afford this to artists, for instance, let's

8:07

say actual painters, when they're dead, I

8:09

love how much gravitas is awarded to,

8:11

let's say, Picasso for a random napkin

8:13

sketch. People like, oh, look at this,

8:16

Picasso sketch. And you're like, guys, it's

8:18

like a stick figure. Yes, but even

8:20

in it, you can see it harkens

8:22

to his view of the world. I'm

8:24

like, guys, the guy was just sketching

8:27

on a napkin. Yes, but it was

8:29

Picasso sketching. Do you understand what I'm

8:31

saying? So how do you feel about

8:33

it? About fame? And it's such a

8:35

strange thing. I don't even know what

8:38

to do with my face when I'm

8:40

saying, I think of face. It's kind

8:42

of like to me. I don't want

8:44

to just think of one. But it's

8:47

just, I don't think of, I think

8:49

that when I'm writing fiction, because that's,

8:51

for me, the distinctions in what I

8:53

do and how much they mean to

8:55

me. So fiction is the thing I

8:58

love. I really think it's my vocation.

9:00

I think it's the reason I'm here.

9:02

I really believe that. I really believe

9:04

that. I really believe that I have

9:06

an ancestral gift. So with fiction, nothing

9:09

else matters. When I'm writing, I'm not,

9:11

I'm not, I don't remember that I'm

9:13

supposed to be this famous person when

9:15

I'm writing fiction. When I'm done writing

9:18

fiction and I'm editing it and someone

9:20

else is sort of, you know, there's

9:22

an editor looking over looking over it.

9:24

It's sacrosanct. I don't think about my

9:26

audience. It's truly almost magical, honestly. But

9:29

the other things, I can tell when

9:31

people are bullshitting me, when people say,

9:33

I love your walk. And I'm thinking,

9:35

no, you don't. But you actually don't.

9:37

But have you told anyone that? Some,

9:40

yes. Oh, wow. That's the most Nigerian

9:42

thing I've ever come across. She's a

9:44

real Iba woman list. No, I mean,

9:46

I'm sitting next to, this is like,

9:49

like, wow. No, this is so much

9:51

what's there. No, I mean, this is

9:53

amazing. But I think it can be

9:55

a good thing, right? For someone, and

9:57

usually it's my wonderful Nigerians. Oh, gee,

10:00

ma'am, I love you. So I said

10:02

to him, I was, which one have

10:04

you read? He said, I've read them,

10:06

I said, which one have you read?

10:08

He was like, well, yeah, for I

10:11

said, okay, what happened? when it's non-Nigerians.

10:13

You know, usually I can tell, but

10:15

then I'm slightly gentler because sometimes non-Nigerians

10:17

don't know how to handle the sort

10:20

of Nigerian directness. Yes. But I think

10:22

in general, because I wanted to be

10:24

read, I've always wanted to be read,

10:26

and I really do feel very grateful,

10:28

you know, how you said people have

10:31

to say that good, but I am

10:33

actually quite grateful to be read. But

10:35

I think fame was never a thing

10:37

that I sought that I sought. And

10:39

in some ways also, because I'm not

10:42

on social media, because sometimes I'm still

10:44

surprised, just like, oh, so that person

10:46

actually knows me. So I'm not... Yeah,

10:48

it doesn't occupy me. Was that an

10:51

intentional choice to not be on social

10:53

media? Yes, yes. What was it? Self-preservation.

10:55

Huh. So not in a high-minded way,

10:57

by the way. Just because I know

10:59

that I will get into fights. with

11:02

people and it will not end well.

11:04

So I thought, so you, you're the

11:06

person, you would reply if somebody at

11:08

to you and say something. Oh, I

11:10

will find where you live and come

11:13

to your house. You know, that's how

11:15

we met. Yeah. Well, what? That's how,

11:17

that's how Christina, and I'm crazy. When

11:19

Trevor first got his job at the

11:22

Daily Show, he had, um, a guest

11:24

on that I didn't agree with. that

11:26

I thought he shouldn't have had it.

11:28

I stand by that. And I... Does

11:30

this guest have a name perhaps? Yeah,

11:33

Tommy Lorent. Yeah. And it was like

11:35

a super viral interview and there was

11:37

lots of reaction. and credit to Trevor,

11:39

he came across tweets where I was

11:41

critical of him in a very respectful

11:44

way, I think. I was kind of...

11:46

How you were critical? Not critical, I

11:48

was just discussing... Oh, yeah. I was

11:50

just... I was discussing the fact that

11:53

he'd had this guest on his show,

11:55

and because he disagreed with me, he

11:57

followed me. He was just like, I

11:59

don't think she's right, because he stands

12:01

by why he had an interview, which

12:04

I love about him, and... And someone

12:06

reached out to me and was like,

12:08

oh, Trevor's, Trevor No, is a fan.

12:10

Do you want to, well we thought

12:12

about working at the show and the

12:15

Nigerian in me was like, this man

12:17

is trying to trick me. And tell

12:19

me off, that's the first thing I

12:21

told my person, I was like, I've

12:24

got this email, I think this man

12:26

is trying to trick me and he's

12:28

holding a grudge because I said he

12:30

shouldn't have that girl. But there was

12:32

like that. No, but I see why

12:35

though. We engaged in a few conversations

12:37

where he was like, you know, you

12:39

made me think I don't necessarily agree.

12:41

I don't necessarily agreed. I don't necessarily

12:43

agreed. I don't necessarily agreed. I don't

12:46

necessarily agreed. I don't necessarily agreed. I

12:48

don't necessarily agreed. I don't necessarily agreed.

12:50

I don't necessarily agreed. I don't necessarily

12:52

agreed. I don't necessarily agreed. I don't

12:55

necessarily agreed. I don't necessarily agreed. I

12:57

don't necessarily agreed. I don't necessarily agree.

12:59

I don't necessarily agree. I don't necessarily

13:01

agree. I don't necessarily agree. I don't

13:03

necessarily Trevor's very kumbaya, but I'm a

13:06

child of Biafras, I always want to

13:08

fight. So there is that, I think

13:10

there's that, not tension, but no, we

13:12

bring different things to how we approach

13:15

things. Yeah, it's completely great. I think

13:17

like what I connected with you on

13:19

was most important for me is like,

13:21

I, and you know this, even till

13:23

this day. I don't care about agreeing

13:26

with people, but I love a well-structured

13:28

argument. I love an idea that makes

13:30

me think, and then something for me

13:32

to butt up again. I actually find

13:34

it boring when people all hang out

13:37

in a group and agree with each

13:39

other. I personally think we're losing a

13:41

lot of that. Yep. You know, like

13:43

we live in a world now where

13:46

we go, I don't agree with you,

13:48

so it's finished. And I'm like, no,

13:50

but... Guys if I was to get

13:52

rid of everyone in my life who

13:54

I didn't agree with on an issue

13:57

I would have no one in my

13:59

life Yeah, do you know what I

14:01

mean? Yes, this is a gospel that

14:03

needs to be preached more in America

14:05

You think in America particularly yes? This

14:08

is not the case in Nigeria for

14:10

example and I would argue in most

14:12

of Africa people know that you can

14:14

disagree with the person and still have

14:17

a relationship with them. I think what's

14:19

happening in the US is a kind

14:21

of, you know, this kind of practice

14:23

of purity, this kind of, you know,

14:25

you have to have this particular views

14:28

otherwise, and then the moralizing of opinion.

14:30

So somebody feels a certain way about

14:32

something. It's not just that you think

14:34

they're wrong, is that you think that

14:36

they're bad people. And I think that

14:39

that moralizing then means like, because you

14:41

think this way you're a bad person,

14:43

and I cannot be in my life.

14:45

I think it's a particularly American thing.

14:48

I really think so. And it's quite

14:50

contemporary. I mean, it's recent. I came

14:52

to the US in 97. I don't

14:54

think America was like that when I

14:56

came to the US. I think it's

14:59

recent. Do you find like that? Well,

15:01

I came to America in 2014, and

15:03

I say this a lot. and maybe

15:05

I'm coming from like a Western lens

15:07

of being in the UK and communicating

15:10

with my friends in the UK. I

15:12

think in the UK also people are

15:14

wearing their politics more or whatever their

15:16

label of whatever you identify as, whether

15:19

the Republican Democrat, socialist or whatever, and

15:21

that is being at the front of

15:23

a conversation in a way that is

15:25

tainting how you can experience a person

15:27

in real life. Yeah. In a way

15:30

that I didn't feel when I first...

15:32

came to America. When I first came.

15:34

Yeah, because remember I came when Obama

15:36

was still in power. You're not wrong,

15:38

actually. Yeah, when I came at the

15:41

tail end of Obama, everyone assumed Hillary

15:43

would win. And to be a Trump

15:45

voter was a very quiet thing. I

15:47

mean, we only discovered there were so

15:50

many voters when the guy won. Because

15:52

everyone was, it was just those red-hat

15:54

people over there. you never thought it

15:56

was a people around you and I

15:58

think there became this scrutiny after Trump

16:01

Monday. Did you vote for him? Did

16:03

you vote for him? Like that suspicion

16:05

or people who weren't in active mourning

16:07

that Hillary wasn't president and then it

16:09

changed the timber of our interactions in

16:12

a way that I don't think we've

16:14

recovered from or gone back to and

16:16

I think that's even deepened now in

16:18

his second term. And you know, I

16:21

always try and grapple with this. I

16:23

try and figure out, especially now, because

16:25

I spend more time in South Africa

16:27

than I've done over the past 10

16:29

years. When I was doing the Daily

16:32

Show, most of my life was just

16:34

in America and in the US, I

16:36

couldn't really leave much. And now I

16:38

get to spend more time going back

16:40

to South Africa and traveling around. And

16:43

one of the biggest things I've realized

16:45

is in America, more than most places

16:47

I've been to, people where their politics

16:49

as their culture, Do you know the

16:52

man? So no one would dare say

16:54

where I'm from. I am a Republican

16:56

or I am. No, no, no. I'm

16:58

Hosa. I'm Zulu. I'm Joanna. I'm Bedi.

17:00

But that's also because our politics in

17:03

Africa is not ideological though. Oh, what

17:05

do you mean by that? But it's

17:07

not though. I mean, is there in

17:09

South Africa, a party that you could

17:11

say is on the left and on

17:14

the right and in the center, based

17:16

on their policies. they're emerging in some

17:18

ways, but previously there wasn't, let's put

17:20

it this way, all the major parties

17:23

in South Africa will have very similar

17:25

promises or ideals, they just have differences

17:27

on how they believe they're going to

17:29

get there. So most of them wouldn't

17:31

argue that health care is a right.

17:34

They all go like, no, no, everyone

17:36

should have health care. and they should

17:38

be free education and they but then

17:40

they'll argue about the permutations of how

17:42

to get there to you and I

17:45

think that you know in agreeing with

17:47

what you're saying yeah but I'm just

17:49

thinking about what I think that this

17:51

kind of polarization even that what I

17:54

don't like I think it preceded Trump

17:56

I think Trump made it was but

17:58

do you I mean I think it

18:00

was I felt it with yeah maybe

18:02

maybe maybe that's a result of like

18:05

the bubble I was in myself yeah

18:07

I just think we're in a time

18:09

where a time where people feel really

18:11

defensive about what they believe and there's

18:14

not much step base for negotiation. I

18:16

felt a lot of that reading your

18:18

book. Which we actually read by the

18:20

way. You did read it. I loved

18:22

it. I loved it. So much. Oh,

18:25

I loved your work. Your book was

18:27

fantastic. I loved it. I love that

18:29

one you just did. No, no, really.

18:31

Cover to cover. This is how much

18:33

I read it. I remember the first,

18:36

maybe like the first 50 pages. I

18:38

thought it was a, I thought it

18:40

was like a memoir. I know this

18:42

is crazy to you. Please don't get

18:45

me wrong. I opened and I opened

18:47

and I was like. Oh, is this

18:49

like your nickname? And are you telling

18:51

me your real story? No, I'm being

18:53

serious. And then I started googling your

18:56

your father. I was like, oh, I

18:58

knew he did statistic. I don't know

19:00

that he was this mega rich person.

19:02

And I was like, she's old money.

19:04

I was like, yeah, I was like,

19:07

what do I not know about this

19:09

person that is now changing how I

19:11

see this? And nothing that I'm googling

19:13

is coming, is coming together. No, because

19:16

I think in the way that it's

19:18

coming together. When I read a novel,

19:20

it is told sort of third person,

19:22

then she went and did this, then

19:24

they were, this felt like a me

19:27

story from the beginning. Yeah, you're a

19:29

mass into this world of COVID? Yes.

19:31

COVID? And the people arguing with family.

19:33

You then went to Google to, wait,

19:35

this doesn't sound right. No, I was,

19:38

I was, but I would love to

19:40

know what inspired, or like, because you

19:42

live in a world of fiction, you

19:44

can go anywhere. Yes. Because you do

19:47

know that there is such a thing

19:49

as the first person narration. No, no,

19:51

I do. I understand this. I understand

19:53

this completely, but what I'm saying oftentimes

19:55

the first person narration isn't so closely

19:58

tied to the author. I love that

20:00

you find the story of music. No,

20:02

I'm just saying for me. But also,

20:04

it's a wonderful compliment. Can I just

20:06

say that because it means that you

20:09

so believed? this world that I created?

20:11

Only for the first 50 pages. By

20:13

the time we got, once we started

20:15

getting to like Zekora's story and once

20:18

we were in like, you know what

20:20

I mean, Kadiato stories, I was, I

20:22

was like, okay, I'm, I knew what

20:24

was happening. Give me some credit. But

20:26

I'm just saying for the first 50,

20:29

I was like, this is a very,

20:31

I even was planning my first question

20:33

to you was gonna be like, how

20:35

do your friends feel about the stories

20:37

you've revealed about them? The things you've

20:40

said about their sex lives, I was

20:42

like, wow, I mean, Africans are generally

20:44

conservative. How can you, Africans are so

20:46

private? I was like, you've told this

20:49

is, Wow. He said that it felt

20:51

like sneaking into a diary entry. It

20:53

really did feel like that. Initially. So

20:55

I would love to know the why

20:57

because you talk about the world we're

21:00

in now and you mentioned it as

21:02

well. How much of the world we're

21:04

in now influences or influenced this book?

21:06

You know and you're going I think

21:08

Like why is the book set in

21:11

and around COVID? It takes place right

21:13

before COVID and then into COVID and

21:15

then sort of out of COVID. Why

21:17

does it take place then? Why does

21:20

it take place, you know, at liberal

21:22

American universities? Why does it take place

21:24

in this moment in time is what

21:26

I'd love to know. Because I'm interested

21:28

in this moment. I think for a

21:31

writer, COVID is gold, because especially lockdown.

21:33

Lockerdown was so surreal, so unique, so

21:35

original, that you cannot but use it.

21:37

It's like perfect material, because you can

21:39

do anything with lockdown. And I think

21:42

people reacted to lockdown in such different

21:44

ways. So you kind of start with

21:46

lockdown was your canvas, and you can

21:48

really do anything with it. So I

21:51

remember. I'm not sure, I didn't set

21:53

out, I don't even think of it

21:55

as a COVID novel. I think of

21:57

it as, because COVID in some ways

21:59

is only a, so you want a

22:02

character who's looking back, you want a

22:04

character who I'm very interested in looking

22:06

back, I'm very, I'm almost addicted to

22:08

nostalgia, I'm kind of always, you know,

22:10

and a kind of melancholy as well,

22:13

COVID just felt. to me the perfect

22:15

setting to have that character look back.

22:17

So she's locked down, she's alone in

22:19

her house, and she looks back. So

22:22

I think if COVID hadn't happened, I

22:24

suppose I would have maybe out of

22:26

mid her fall sick and then be

22:28

in hospital. Okay, you wanted to isolate

22:30

her to look back on her life.

22:33

Yes. Okay. Yes. It's not that I

22:35

think that COVID had any. Well, it's

22:37

up to the reader. I was going

22:39

to say, I don't think COVID has

22:41

any particular meaning in the novel. But

22:44

I think it's to say that the

22:46

sort of authorial intent was not to

22:48

make COVID a character, really, but to

22:50

make COVID backdrop. Because I think that

22:53

COVID, I don't think I've written, if

22:55

I, this is not the COVID novel,

22:57

because I think there's just so much

22:59

more that would have to be in

23:01

it. to make it the COVID novel,

23:04

if that makes sense. Yeah, I understand.

23:06

What novel would you say it is

23:08

then? Love, dreams? A certain kind of

23:10

melancholy, longing. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's,

23:12

I think it's my most grown-up novel,

23:15

which is to say that it's my

23:17

most, the novel in which I'm most

23:19

willing to... acknowledge

23:21

even embrace uncertainty. And I don't

23:23

need to have all the answers

23:25

and I don't need to, I

23:27

don't need to, you know, have

23:30

it all together. I feel like

23:32

I had a sense of responsibility

23:34

with half of a yellow sun,

23:36

for example. And with Americana, I

23:38

was setting myself free from being

23:40

the good daughter of literature. I

23:42

was like, I'm just going to

23:44

do what I want and I'm

23:46

going to. And now I feel

23:48

like I've grown up. So dream

23:50

counts. Yeah. I mean, of course,

23:52

it's also my diary, as Trevor

23:54

said. It feels like it to

23:57

me. It's the best thing I've

23:59

had to do. No, it really

24:01

is. To me, to me, it

24:03

feels, and you know why it

24:05

feels like a theory is to

24:07

what you're saying about like love,

24:09

right? Every single one of the

24:11

stories in the book, I think

24:13

are in many ways an honest

24:15

reflection of how we experienced love

24:17

in our lives. Funny enough, men

24:19

and women. I was honestly intrigued

24:21

by that part of the book.

24:23

I was going, was it an

24:26

intentional choice that you made. to

24:28

sort of keep us blind from

24:30

how the men were experiencing the

24:32

love and only have it be

24:34

how the women were thinking that

24:36

the men were experiencing the love.

24:38

Because I don't know how the

24:40

men were experiencing it. Wait, what

24:42

do you mean by that? Because

24:44

it's a book about women's lives.

24:46

So it's interesting because like Darnell

24:48

and you know all of these

24:50

horrible men in the book. They're

24:52

interior lives. Horrible. I found this,

24:55

listen, it's my reading, it's my

24:57

reading. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.

24:59

I found a lot of them

25:01

horrible. Oh, come on. What did

25:03

you find the most horrible? Oh

25:05

my God. Well, you guys know

25:07

I'm anti-men in general, but like,

25:09

let me, yeah. You know, my

25:11

life is just filled of brilliant

25:13

women. Yeah, well, I care. Because

25:15

I have some pretty good men

25:17

in my life, and I don't

25:19

know that I could have that

25:21

rule. Are they like... brothers, family

25:24

members, friends. Yeah, I just speak

25:26

to them during the night between

25:28

95. But only about to travel's

25:30

question. Who did you? We know

25:32

that you're... Okay, so in terms

25:34

of who disturbed my spirit the

25:36

most, like, left me vibrating a

25:38

bit quamid. And that's because I'm

25:40

postpart of myself and those scenes

25:42

of Zakora, like... knowing her mother

25:44

in a new way because of

25:46

the vacuum of that man not

25:48

being there was really beautiful to

25:50

me because me and my friends

25:53

talk about all the time like

25:55

it took us becoming mothers to

25:57

actually see our mothers as girls

25:59

and like it's a dialogue we're

26:01

constantly happening. Kwame because of how

26:03

he behaved. and how his family

26:05

behaved that created a resentment. I'm

26:07

like, that's not an honorable person.

26:09

So lying to me, that's like

26:11

a horrible man. That's lovely. You

26:13

know, I love that you're thinking

26:15

about such things as being an

26:17

honorable person. Yeah. Yeah, I think

26:20

the whole life you have been

26:22

in love is that you are

26:24

not in fact sophisticated. I mean,

26:26

there's a kind of lowering of

26:28

your just every imaginable barrier and

26:30

guard that you have when love

26:32

happens, I think. And Kwame... Okay.

26:34

I mean, could we have some

26:36

empathy for Kwame? I don't know.

26:38

Oh, interest. Can you go into

26:40

that? I would love... No, I'm

26:42

now intrigued. Yeah. No, I don't

26:44

know. I don't know. I don't

26:46

know. I don't know. I don't

26:49

know. I don't know. I don't

26:51

know what happened. But on the

26:53

empathy point, when people listen to

26:55

this after they read the book.

26:57

I mean, what do you think

26:59

happened? I just feel like something

27:01

must have happened to him. Speaking

27:03

of trauma and trauma response, maybe

27:05

it was a kind of exaggerated

27:07

trauma response. This is what I

27:09

felt while reading the book as

27:11

a man. I felt like it

27:13

was, I'd love to know your

27:15

perspective as the author, but it's

27:18

like, everyone sees love from their

27:20

point of view, you know, everyone

27:22

in every story that they tell

27:24

makes sense. from their point of

27:26

view. So whenever someone's telling me

27:28

their love story, I've met very

27:30

few people who tell me the

27:32

love story where they are the

27:34

villains in it. I meet very

27:36

few people who are aware of

27:38

the elements that they contributed. And

27:40

I'm always intrigued by that. I'm

27:42

always intrigued by that. I'm always

27:44

intrigued by how people will tell

27:47

you a love story where they've

27:49

just been slighted. The world has

27:51

done them wrong. They just keep

27:53

bumping into these wrong characters in

27:55

it. And I'm like, yeah, I

27:57

know this. Do you mean women

27:59

and men? Yeah. Yeah, completely. You

28:01

don't agree? No, I'm just curious.

28:03

So men tell love stories about

28:05

how they were completely. I think

28:07

the difference with men for the

28:09

most part is because we aren't

28:11

really comfortable with our

28:14

emotions and naming them and we

28:16

don't spend as much time in

28:18

them, especially with our friends, we

28:20

may, I think we will water

28:22

them down or we'll compress them

28:24

into a simple feeling like anger.

28:26

I'm angry. You know, we'll very seldom

28:28

say like... I felt ashamed. Well, very

28:30

seldom say like I felt inadequate. I

28:33

felt no, well, it's just angry, you

28:35

know, it's a simple one. But I

28:37

think men will tell very similar stories,

28:39

similar stories to, you know, to the

28:42

ones that I found in your book

28:44

where I'll say to a man, friend, what

28:46

happened? Yeah, she was this and she was

28:48

that and it wasn't gonna, and I go

28:50

like, okay, but what, I understand

28:53

you, but what was the we? Right

28:55

because every love story has to have

28:57

a we in the same yes, terrible

28:59

and we I'm just worried that we're

29:01

sort of going into the both sides

29:03

territory I think that there's some relationships

29:06

where one person is an asshole. Oh,

29:08

completely. Yeah, that's that's completely true And

29:10

that asshole may not acknowledge that they

29:12

were the asshole, but it doesn't mean

29:14

that they're not I just feel as though Reading

29:16

reading this book that's about women's stories about

29:19

men I'm struck by how It's been out,

29:21

I don't know, two weeks. I'm struck by

29:23

how many people have said to me, what about

29:25

the man? What about the man? What about the man

29:27

stories? Which is what Trevor is doing. Whoa, who I think

29:30

it's. We can rewind the tape. I didn't say that. I

29:32

did not say that. I did not say that. I did

29:34

not say that. I did not say that. I did not

29:36

say that. I did not say that. I did not say

29:38

that. I did not say that. I did not say that. I

29:40

did not say that. I did not say what about

29:43

the man's. I did not say what about the

29:45

man's. I did not say what about the man's.

29:47

I did not say what about the man's. What

29:49

about the man's. What about the man's. What about

29:51

the man's. was if you chose to keep it

29:53

opaque on purpose. So you didn't give us the

29:56

answers about why that happened. The answer doesn't have

29:58

to do it like the man's point. of you,

30:00

but it's the answer nonetheless. So many

30:02

of the characters, they don't know why

30:04

it happened. The person disappears, but they

30:06

never get the closure. They never get

30:08

the answer. They left with this ghost

30:11

that haunts them. And so what I

30:13

was asking is like, if you did

30:15

that on purpose, I don't want to

30:17

know like, oh, but what was his

30:19

version of it? I'm more intrigued by

30:21

why you left us with characters that

30:23

were sort of unresolved in the answer

30:25

that they were looking for. That's what

30:27

like a difference between the two. No,

30:31

there isn't. Oh, okay. That was very

30:33

cleverly done. But no, because, but anyway,

30:35

it doesn't matter because I'm, I'm, it

30:38

just struck me because I think that

30:40

there is a kind of expectation we

30:42

have, I think, that in reading that

30:44

we, maybe even unconsciously, that we still

30:46

look for the men, if that makes

30:48

sense. I think if it were a

30:51

book... about men telling the stories that

30:53

I don't think as many people would

30:55

have asked me, well, what did the

30:57

women think? Hmm. I would have. Not

30:59

that. Yeah, no, you definitely would have.

31:02

But we all know that you're different.

31:04

But anyway, so Trevor. What else do

31:06

you want to know? Oh, I want

31:08

to know everything. I would actually like

31:10

to know as well, like, you know,

31:13

and maybe it's because of Christianas, like,

31:15

like, I mean, just presence in my

31:17

life as a person. I think you

31:19

were, other than my mom, probably the

31:21

woman who's given me the most insight

31:23

into the, like, just like the nitty

31:26

gritty of like, like ugly womanhood, if

31:28

I would call it that, you know?

31:30

As eloquently as I'm unvarnished completely. And

31:32

this book in a really weird way

31:34

for me felt like an extension of

31:37

the conversations I've had with Christiana. And

31:39

like when we were talking about the

31:41

inner workings of a woman's body and

31:43

how it's... quote-unquote betraying her in some

31:45

ways and how it's not doing what

31:48

it's supposed to do for her and

31:50

and then like even the frustration You

31:52

know, there's one line which I'll misquote,

31:54

but it was essentially something to the

31:56

effect of how, I forget which character

31:58

was saying this, but they were basically

32:01

saying, there was almost like a resentment

32:03

in the fact that their future and

32:05

the dream and their life they were

32:07

looking for was tied to men. They

32:09

couldn't achieve that dream without the man

32:12

being attached to them. Yeah, one of

32:14

my favorite lines is. the character that

32:16

basically says when you marry it when

32:18

you get married they leave you alone

32:20

even if you divorce them I was

32:23

like this is brilliant Nigerian logic but

32:25

it's the truth because like my friend

32:27

just said I just got married for

32:29

freedom freedom from the question from the

32:31

judgment oh because your family leaves you

32:33

alone yeah yeah now you're in your

32:36

husband's house yes I'm gonna complain about

32:38

the thing yes because you're under his

32:40

dominion right right right right so to

32:42

speak and it's and often you actually

32:44

not, but it's a perception people have.

32:47

So you're in your husband's house. Nobody

32:49

knows what you're doing or what sort

32:51

of life you actually have. So for

32:53

many women it's a kind of freedom

32:55

really. in a strange kind of way

32:58

in a perverse kind of way obviously

33:00

we want to live in a world

33:02

where a woman doesn't need to do

33:04

that to achieve freedom but if you

33:06

live in a society that imposes that

33:08

kind of thing on you it would

33:11

be nice to be in a society

33:13

that doesn't impose that's the reality yes

33:15

but it can then be a kind

33:17

of strange freedom which is so unvarnished

33:19

because that's not necessarily a thing even

33:22

as direct and honest as Nigerian women

33:24

are is what we'd say in a

33:26

forum that is not private. You know,

33:28

I mean, it was just like, I

33:30

felt like in moments you're in the

33:33

inner sanctum of the things women say

33:35

to each other that they don't tell

33:37

other people that I sometimes tell Trevor.

33:39

I thought I thought that about a

33:41

lot of it and I actually had

33:43

that as a question as well was,

33:46

you know, it's strange when it's a

33:48

novel. I feel like when it's nonfiction,

33:50

it sort of has a very direct

33:52

approach. With fiction, like most art, it's

33:54

at the discretion of the discretion of

33:57

the artist. How much of

33:59

the book are you in? as a

34:01

direct commentary on society and how much

34:03

are you allowing to live in a

34:05

complete fantasy? Like, are these rich Africans

34:08

on purpose? Are they interacting with white

34:10

liberals on purpose? Like, and if, because

34:12

I think you're very intentional, I'd love

34:14

to know like the why, like what

34:16

are you hoping to reveal to us

34:19

through those things? Like, you know, it

34:21

becomes so much more complex, but why

34:23

do you choose it? I don't know.

34:26

I really don't know. This is

34:28

the thing about writing fiction. I

34:31

don't like the why questions. Because

34:33

there's a lot that's not... I

34:35

am intentional, I hate that word,

34:37

about lectures and essays. I can

34:39

tell you what I had in

34:41

mind for the danger of a

34:43

single story, for example. But with

34:45

fiction, it's different. So rich African...

34:47

Because it's true. I mean, because

34:49

I'm interested in... So I think

34:52

I write about things that I'm

34:54

interested in obviously, right? Okay. So

34:56

when you talk about academia, American

34:58

academia, I'm interested in that. It's

35:00

also a world I kind of

35:02

know, because I've spent time there.

35:04

And so I can write about

35:06

it with a kind of authority

35:08

and authenticity, I think. But it's

35:10

also because I'm interested in all

35:12

of the permutations of American academia.

35:15

I think Dream Count... I don't

35:17

like the white questions. I think

35:19

you could say that dream count

35:21

is, I think in some ways

35:23

it's part satire, especially the bits

35:25

that are about academia. Okay. Right?

35:27

But I think as satire always

35:29

does, there's truth there. Like I'm

35:31

kind of holding up a slightly

35:33

mocking mirror to certain things that

35:36

happen. But I mean, there's also

35:38

obviously, I'm writing realism and so

35:40

it's kind of, you know, when

35:42

you say the... people who read

35:44

Dickens and there's a sense in

35:46

which you could say reading Dickens

35:48

is can give Clara's sense of

35:50

London at the time, Clara than

35:52

reading history. I know exactly what

35:54

you mean. Yes, so I kind

35:56

of like to think that that's

35:59

what I am doing with my

36:01

fiction, which is I'm creating art,

36:03

but there is of course also

36:05

a kind of social and political

36:07

component to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

36:09

But I'm not, I don't set

36:11

out to, I like to think

36:13

that my points are more blurred

36:15

in my fiction. So in other

36:17

words if I had to write

36:20

an essay about American academia, I

36:22

think it would be very blocked.

36:24

We're going to continue this conversation

36:26

right after this short break. This

36:28

episode is brought to you by

36:30

Ultra Running. Ultra makes performance running

36:32

shoes that are insanely comfortable with

36:34

a roomy toe box and zero

36:36

to low drop. This helps keep

36:38

your feet in a more natural

36:40

position, so you can move how

36:43

you were designed to. Perfect for

36:45

the road, trail, or gym, you

36:47

could wear them for miles and

36:49

forget that they're there. Stay out

36:51

there, with Ultra. Try Ultra for

36:53

yourself with a free 30-day trial

36:55

and free shipping at Ultra running.com.

36:57

This episode is brought to you

36:59

by Brooklyn. If you know anything

37:01

about me, you'll know that I

37:04

travel a lot. I'm always on

37:06

the road, in a different country,

37:08

in a different city, and most

37:10

importantly, in a different bed. That's

37:12

probably the one thing I miss

37:14

most about coming home, is that

37:16

I get to sleep in my

37:18

bed. Because let's be honest, there's

37:20

nothing quite like it. The bed

37:22

is really what makes it a

37:24

home. It's the space where all

37:27

the good things in life happen.

37:29

You're reading, you're sleeping, you're late

37:31

night scrolling, relaxing, snuggling with your

37:33

pets, snuggling with your loved ones.

37:35

And yeah, you know, that's it.

37:37

That's the list of fun things

37:39

that happen in a bed. But

37:41

truly, when you elevate your bed,

37:43

oh, I mean, you're elevating your

37:45

entire existence. And there's no better

37:48

way to do that than with

37:50

Brooklyn. Scheets, blankets, pillows, throws, the

37:52

layers and designs and possibilities are

37:54

endless. Turning your bedroom into the

37:56

sanctuary that you deserve. So, shop

37:58

award winners and fan faves in

38:00

store or online at brooklyn.com. That's

38:02

B-R-O-O-O-K-L-I-N-E-N-D-K-L-I-N-E-N-L-I-N-E-N-T-K-S-S- for a limited time. I'm

38:04

interested because we kind of started

38:06

this where we're talking about you

38:09

know you don't look at the

38:11

fame you don't think about audience

38:13

for fiction for fiction are there

38:15

moments when you're writing fiction when

38:17

you're like that feels I can't

38:19

go there. So you, it's kind

38:21

of, there's a fearlessness that comes

38:23

with the fiction. Yeah, I call

38:25

it a radical honesty. Okay. And

38:27

that's the only way that I

38:29

can feel happy. Fiction really makes

38:32

me happy when it's going well,

38:34

really makes me happy, and I

38:36

can tell when, and I, you

38:38

know, a few times in my

38:40

life when I've held back in

38:42

my fiction, and I can tell,

38:44

you know, I can tell that

38:46

I, in some ways it's like

38:48

letting yourself down. I can tell.

38:50

Can you say when you felt

38:53

you held back? In some of

38:55

the stories and the thing around

38:57

your neck, I think that I,

38:59

you know, I held back in

39:01

a way. Why did you? I

39:03

know you don't like the why

39:05

questions, but why did you? No,

39:07

this is a different kind of

39:09

why question. I guess because I

39:11

just felt like maybe I just

39:13

shouldn't go there. Maybe I shouldn't

39:16

be as honest as I think.

39:18

Maybe I shouldn't let this character

39:20

be its full self. I don't

39:22

know. But anyway, the point is,

39:24

I think if I learned anything

39:26

from doing that, it's that it

39:28

just doesn't make me happy. It

39:30

doesn't feel true. It doesn't feel

39:32

authentic. So some of those short

39:34

stories, I don't. actually. But no,

39:37

Dream Count, no. I don't hold

39:39

back. I go where the character

39:41

takes me. It's a revelation. And

39:43

you have some very direct characters.

39:45

Yes. But I also think, I

39:47

feel so strongly about literature, about

39:49

fiction. I think it's our last

39:51

frontier. This is, it's only in

39:53

literature that we can learn things

39:55

that we cannot learn anywhere else.

39:57

Journalism cannot tell us about human

40:00

motivation. Journalism cannot go deep into

40:02

like the terrain of the human

40:04

heart, which I think is really

40:06

key for almost everything in the

40:08

world. I mean, I really think

40:10

the psychology of people can explain

40:12

so much about the world. I

40:14

mean, just the psychology of the

40:16

people who are in leadership positions.

40:18

I think, you know, journalism can

40:21

do that. Politics doesn't do that.

40:23

To write nonfiction, especially about other

40:25

people's lives, is to be constrained.

40:27

by certain things that you cannot

40:29

possibly know. But I think fiction

40:31

lets you just, it's the essential

40:33

thing I think that we need

40:35

when it's done well. As was

40:37

done in this case. Yeah. And

40:39

I was going to say that

40:41

brings us to one of the

40:44

characters in the book is based

40:46

on a woman who exists in

40:48

real life. Can you tell us

40:50

a bit more? So, yes, inspired

40:52

by her. the legal department of

40:54

my publishers. Inspired by? Yeah, we

40:56

need to use the right language.

40:58

Inspired by. Okay. Yeah, so inspired

41:00

by. So I remember when I...

41:02

Did you follow the story of

41:05

Dominic Strauss-Kahn? I didn't actually. I

41:07

didn't know. I now went and...

41:09

read up on backwards. Yeah, it

41:11

wasn't, I don't think it was

41:13

really that big in South Africa

41:15

when this was happening. It was

41:17

big in the UK, yes, and

41:19

in the US, I mean, until

41:21

the case was dropped. So this

41:23

woman who was from Guinea and

41:25

who walked as a hotel housekeeper

41:28

accused him of raping her, she

41:30

walks into the room to clean

41:32

it and there's a naked white

41:34

man running toward her. And I

41:36

remember when I first... heard about

41:38

it I was just riveted by

41:40

it and it was also very

41:42

melodramatic he was he was arrested

41:44

he was already inside the plane

41:46

about to fly to Paris oh

41:49

wow where he would then have

41:51

started his campaign for president it

41:53

was almost a done deal that

41:55

he was going to be the

41:57

next French president And so he's

41:59

arrested and Americans as is the

42:01

want did this very dramatic thing

42:03

of parading him in front of

42:05

journalists which I hate. The purple.

42:07

I just I think it's a

42:10

terrible thing. Why? Why? Because I

42:12

think especially when it comes to

42:14

the sexual assault cases we really

42:16

have to be very careful to

42:18

get it right because the world

42:20

is so deeply immersed in misogyny

42:22

that the people looking for the

42:24

smallest reason to discredit a sexual

42:26

assault case. Huh. And so you

42:28

imagine the misogynist just aching to

42:30

say things like, see this is

42:33

wrong, we don't know if you

42:35

did it or not, you're already

42:37

parading him. I wish they had

42:39

kept it very quiet, I wish

42:41

they had gone to court, I

42:43

wish they had found him guilty,

42:45

I wish they had publicized the

42:47

evidence, that would have made me

42:49

very happy. Because then, I think

42:51

the story would have ended differently.

42:54

But anyway, so he's arrested and

42:56

he's let out on bail, and

42:58

then... We're all kind of looking

43:00

forward to the trial and then

43:02

at some point the cases dropped

43:04

and the cases dropped because they

43:06

said she had lied on her

43:08

asylum application. And I just remember

43:10

thinking, I was just shocked, I

43:12

really was, I almost couldn't believe

43:14

it. And also just the way

43:17

that his lawyers talked about her,

43:19

they just kept repeating liar and

43:21

lied, lied liar. Yeah. And for

43:23

the average person watching this. your

43:25

assumption is going to be that

43:27

she lied about what had happened.

43:29

And I think this was also

43:31

very, I think they deliberately did

43:33

that. But in fact, they said

43:35

she lied about her asylum. And

43:38

my thinking is, what we're saying

43:40

to women is if you ever

43:42

expect... to get justice for sexual

43:44

assault, then you better be perfect.

43:46

Like you better be sinless. Which

43:48

therefore means you better not be

43:50

human because we're all flawed. I

43:52

found it really, I felt hurt

43:54

actually. And also very angry. So

43:56

I wrote this very angry essay

43:58

nonfiction. Very blunt. Which was, you

44:01

know, my point was this is

44:03

bad. And I think I framed

44:05

it in a kind of America

44:07

is not like our... not like

44:09

Nigeria, not like in Guinea, in

44:11

Guinea and Nigeria, the big man

44:13

would probably not be arrested at

44:15

all, so that America did this,

44:17

was wonderful, I felt very heartened

44:19

by it, but America has disappointed

44:22

me, and in some ways has

44:24

failed this woman. But I didn't

44:26

think I would write fiction about

44:28

her, I didn't plan to. So

44:30

when I started writing this novel,

44:32

again, a character came to me.

44:34

And so I think it means

44:36

that even without knowing it, I

44:38

carried her with me. And then

44:40

suddenly, something drops into your life

44:42

and changes it forever. For me,

44:45

there was just a great sadness

44:47

there. Like, I felt, yeah, I

44:49

felt so upset on her behalf.

44:51

But anyway, so I wrote this

44:53

character, who is not really her,

44:55

because I've invented this character's interior

44:57

life, but I have kept the

44:59

worn story about them. Nafisato Jello,

45:01

that's her name, the story that

45:03

Nafisato tells about what happened in

45:06

that hotel room. I've kept as

45:08

close as possible to that version

45:10

because I just think that, in

45:12

some ways I think it's a

45:14

way of paying tribute to her,

45:16

but also it's about so many

45:18

women like her. It's about women

45:20

who are powerless and who are

45:22

not allowed to have dignity. The

45:24

way she was, the way they

45:26

talked about her just... It wounded

45:29

my African spirit. My parents said,

45:31

oh, let me, oh, oh, no,

45:33

it would him. It just, it

45:35

wounded, it painted, it wounded me.

45:37

I just thought, this is so

45:39

wrong. And even the interviews that,

45:41

I mean, I kind of fictionalize

45:43

it in the novel, but there's

45:45

an interview where I'm watching and

45:47

I'm thinking, they haven't done this

45:50

right. English is not her native

45:52

language. Right. And so you're asking

45:54

her about something so intimate and

45:56

so difficult in a language that

45:58

she doesn't really speak well. It

46:00

cannot go well. In some ways

46:02

you're setting her up to look

46:04

as though she's lying. And I

46:06

remember a friend of mine who

46:08

said to me at the time

46:11

that she had watched the interview

46:13

and she said, oh, I don't

46:15

believe her because she was so

46:17

dramatic. She was using her hands

46:19

too much. And that made me

46:21

very angry as well. I thought,

46:23

first of all, you don't understand.

46:25

There's an African world in which

46:27

that is not dramatic. in her

46:29

ability to express herself, you know.

46:31

So anyway, all of that is

46:34

to say this character is inspired

46:36

by Anafizato Jello, but isn't her?

46:38

You know, it's interesting that you

46:40

say the thing about the public

46:42

trials and all of it. I

46:44

don't know if this is still

46:46

true, but I believe in Germany,

46:48

when a case is happening, you

46:50

know, when you're being investigated, the

46:52

press isn't allowed to report on

46:55

it. And they have a very

46:57

strict system. that tries to prevent

46:59

the press from sensationalizing the case

47:01

in any way. So it's supposed

47:03

to be the way you're saying,

47:05

which I actually think would be

47:07

good for everyone involved, because I

47:09

think, number one, there's nothing worse

47:11

than a public trial, because it

47:13

does not have any of the

47:15

respect or the expertise of a

47:18

trial, right? The most recent example,

47:20

let's say like the ditty thing,

47:22

the amount of random stuff that

47:24

now comes up. doesn't help anything.

47:26

So what happens is someone can

47:28

put up a fake piece of

47:30

a fake, you know, deposition or

47:32

whatever it might be, and it's

47:34

sallies. Somebody's case that's not involved

47:36

with that, do you know what

47:39

I mean? But it's just the

47:41

spectacle of it all. It just

47:43

creates noise and it creates another

47:45

example is the Luigi Mangioni. Oh,

47:47

but we like to see Luigi.

47:49

Yeah, but what I was saying

47:51

is, but I was going like,

47:53

you tell me, you tell me

47:55

how you have that trial when

47:57

publicly they've already said, you know,

47:59

the shooter and when he shot

48:02

and how do you now then

48:04

have a trial of somebody when

48:06

when that's already been done? And

48:08

you see, it's interesting when you

48:10

say that and you talk about

48:12

the purp walk. I can think

48:14

of maybe at least 10 examples

48:16

in the book where the fiction

48:18

of this book still comments on

48:20

the realness of America. And it's

48:23

like a critique on it. So,

48:25

you know, American academia. how people

48:27

are discussing issues in and around

48:29

the world and how they feel

48:31

they can and cannot have the

48:33

discussions. The justice system. The character

48:35

says in America money is justice.

48:37

Yes. Which was very powerful to

48:39

me because you just sue. Yeah.

48:41

Do you know that's like it?

48:43

Yeah. Yeah. And I should say

48:46

that I agree with the character

48:48

in my just utter horror. Yeah.

48:50

I remember when I came to

48:52

the US and they would say

48:54

things like, oh, something terrible happened.

48:56

But the family got money. you

48:58

know somebody was shot maybe and

49:00

then somebody be like oh the

49:02

family got money and I'm thinking

49:04

yeah but why are you talking

49:07

about it like that's so I

49:09

mean yeah somebody died yeah yeah

49:11

but fundamentally that's what America was

49:13

based on and I think every

49:15

culture thinks that justice is the

49:17

thing that the culture most values

49:19

I don't you don't think think

49:21

about like if like okay if

49:23

I think about like some parts

49:25

of South Africa I remember talking

49:27

to Kaya about this, like a

49:30

friend of mine from South Africa,

49:32

and his dad was, his grandfather

49:34

was a chief in the village.

49:36

And if they found some, or

49:38

very seldom, but if somebody stole

49:40

something or if they did something

49:42

wrong, you would just get beaten,

49:44

right? You would, you wouldn't get

49:46

arrested, you wouldn't get put away,

49:48

you wouldn't, you just get beaten,

49:51

and then they would talk to

49:53

you and say, please don't do

49:55

that again. That's all it was.

49:57

And him and I were joking.

49:59

about it saying it's interesting how

50:01

in that setting in particular in

50:03

like a village you know where

50:05

many of our grandparents grew up that

50:07

was the thing that you like well so

50:10

what was valued violence no no no it

50:12

was the other way around our culture valued

50:14

non-violence and our culture valued like the culture

50:16

itself it was like a very like that's

50:19

not the thing that that we want do

50:21

you do you understand what I'm saying if

50:23

so if the violence the violence takes away

50:25

from you the thing that the culture

50:28

holds most valuable, I find. So in

50:30

some parts of the world, time is

50:32

the thing that they really look at.

50:34

Other places in the world think that

50:36

shame is a more powerful tool. So

50:38

their sentences may not be as long, but

50:40

how they handle the case is worse. But

50:43

I feel like in America, because money,

50:45

whether we like it or not, money is

50:47

like almost the foundation of America, they

50:49

go then if we give you money,

50:52

you have been made whole. And the

50:54

other person lost money, so they've really

50:56

been punished. And also

50:58

now money being speech. I mean

51:00

in this country, I mean, of

51:03

all completely. But anyway, let's

51:05

talk about dream counts. But I

51:07

feel like dream counts is everything.

51:09

I agree with you. Like

51:12

for instance, academia, let's talk

51:14

a little bit about that. Yeah.

51:16

It felt like the book was

51:18

making a criticism of

51:20

how America's liberal academia

51:22

treats discussions. Contrarians,

51:25

arguments, etc. And I found myself

51:27

reading it going like, I was

51:29

like, oh, I wonder how much

51:32

of this Chimamanda thinks or is

51:34

it just the character that's thinking?

51:36

Like what do you think of

51:38

the current state of America's

51:41

academia and how students are taught

51:43

to think or not think? I

51:45

think that's fairly obvious. No, is

51:47

it though? I think it's a fairy

51:50

and actually it's a reading that I

51:52

agree with, which is like, the book is.

51:54

is clearly not

51:57

enthusiastic. Right.

51:59

about the form and even the

52:02

function of American academia today. I

52:04

mean, obviously. But so you have

52:06

a woman who's Nigerian and who

52:08

doesn't know anything about that whole

52:10

thing, who comes looking for something

52:12

better than she is, right? So

52:15

she's come from. She's come from

52:17

a life in Nigeria that she

52:19

thinks she kind of wants to

52:21

atone for, in a way. And

52:23

so America becomes this, I want

52:25

to find something noble and beautiful

52:27

and good and honorable, because America

52:30

is aspirational still, even to people

52:32

who know that it's a very

52:34

complicated place. There's still an aspirational

52:36

element to America. And so she

52:38

comes and she wants to do

52:40

a master. And she wants to

52:42

study pornography. I think we should

52:45

be able to say that. You

52:47

can say that, yes. So, pornography,

52:49

pornography. And she, so it's interesting

52:51

for me, it's the writer, to

52:53

look at this world from the

52:55

point of view of a person

52:57

who just does not know it

53:00

and is not familiar with it.

53:02

So this person is just taken

53:04

aback, surprised, just like, you know,

53:06

what is going on? And also

53:08

then she becomes so disillusioned by

53:10

it. I think if someone wants

53:12

to read that as a cautionary

53:15

tale, I'm not opposed to it.

53:17

Okay. Okay. I mean, this is

53:19

what can happen, which is you

53:21

can make people lose that thing

53:23

in them that wants to be

53:25

better and dream and aspire. You

53:27

know, there's something actually, I think,

53:30

quite cynical about, and it's not,

53:32

it's not an obvious cynicism, but

53:34

there's something quite cynical about the

53:36

way that academia. operates. It doesn't

53:38

feel to me, I don't know,

53:40

there's something, the beautiful things that

53:42

are lacking. So it's not just

53:44

about, it's not just about letting

53:47

our imaginations be free and we

53:49

should be able to exchange ideas.

53:51

It's also just more fundamental things

53:53

like compassion. Do you know? And

53:55

I don't even like to use

53:57

kindness because that word is so

53:59

overused and always by people who

54:02

are spectacularly unkind. So I will

54:04

not use kindness but compassion. Do

54:06

you? No, I'm with you. the

54:08

ability to understand that there are

54:10

multiple points of view in the

54:12

world. It's a very strange thing

54:14

because, and I'm a person who

54:17

grew up on a university campus,

54:19

so academia has always been part

54:21

of my life, like it's my,

54:23

I get into a university campus

54:25

anywhere in the world and I'm

54:27

already at home, like it's just,

54:29

I feel comfortable. And you will

54:32

think, and this is what it

54:34

was like in Osaka when I

54:36

was growing up, it was a

54:38

place of, of, of, you know,

54:40

multi, ideas, people, and that's not

54:42

the case in America. It's not

54:44

the case at all. And sometimes

54:47

it's difficult to talk about because

54:49

I, you know, you don't want

54:51

to, sometimes one doesn't want to

54:53

agree with one's enemies. political rights

54:55

in this country who I think

54:57

just espouse the most ridiculous ideas,

54:59

but who also criticize American academia.

55:02

And I think there's truth there,

55:04

but acknowledging that kind of, I

55:06

just think, oh, my lord, I

55:08

agree with this people. But my

55:10

feelings come from a different place,

55:12

comes from love, comes from wanting

55:14

this thing that I love to

55:17

be better. That's where it comes

55:19

from a better. That's where it

55:21

comes from. How or what would

55:23

your advice be if, let's say

55:25

there's an aspiring author or even

55:27

just like a... who loves your

55:29

work out there, somebody who is

55:32

in academia right now, they come

55:34

to you and they say, Chimamanda,

55:36

I hear what you're saying about

55:38

empathy and seeing another person's point

55:40

of view, but I feel like

55:42

this person who I disagree with,

55:44

the thing that I disagree with

55:47

them on is the fundamental humanity

55:49

or existence of another human being,

55:51

per se, because that's what I've

55:53

heard a lot of people say,

55:55

they'll go, no, no, no, this

55:57

is not a difference between 30%

55:59

tax and 20% tax and 20%

56:02

tax. I'm disagreeing with somebody who

56:04

fundamentally believes that black people should

56:06

not get this or that this

56:08

group should not get that or

56:10

that you know what I mean.

56:12

How would you encourage them then?

56:14

But I don't I don't even

56:17

agree that that's the case. I

56:19

mean I don't agree that that's

56:21

the case. No, because I think

56:23

that we have... Wait, that they're

56:25

feeling that or that they feel

56:27

that. Okay. But you feel something

56:29

doesn't mean it's true. It doesn't.

56:32

And I think that when you

56:34

widen the definition of something. So

56:36

this is somebody who believes that

56:38

black people should not have, maybe

56:40

that person just feels, maybe that

56:42

person supports school choice. Okay. And

56:44

this is an exact example actually.

56:47

I know somebody who is very

56:49

upset because somebody supports school choice,

56:51

and then the very strange conclusion

56:53

was that this person who supports

56:55

school choice doesn't like black people.

56:57

That's not, I mean, you could

56:59

feel that, but that's not necessarily

57:02

rational thinking. So I guess my

57:04

point is, it's either people have

57:06

become incredibly terrible in the past

57:08

20 years, or something has changed

57:10

in the way in our capacity

57:12

to have compassion, to be more

57:14

broad-minded, to think in more complex

57:17

ways. My point being that 20

57:19

years ago, I don't think we,

57:21

this was happening. In other words,

57:23

universities were places where places were

57:25

places where you could still exchange

57:27

ideas. You weren't terrified of saying

57:29

something because you'd be blacklisted for

57:32

saying the wrong thing. So, which

57:34

is it? Is it that there

57:36

are many more people now who

57:38

fundamentally just have these really odious

57:40

beliefs about other human beings? You

57:42

said that's, you said something about

57:44

wearing our politics more closely. Is

57:47

that what it is and has

57:49

it then tainted the way we

57:51

look and the way we judge

57:53

and the conclusions that we draw?

57:55

So. As I say often, I

57:57

have a very dim view of

57:59

human nature, it's very hopsy and

58:02

so I've always thought people are

58:04

terrible and I still think they're

58:06

terrible. I don't think that's true.

58:08

I really, I'll ask this guy.

58:10

Christina works on its guilty, until

58:12

proven innocence, that's how she works

58:14

with all humans to say she

58:17

needs to me. Like my father

58:19

and his two brothers miraculously survived

58:21

Biafra and considering what they've gone

58:23

through, they are such... good and

58:25

compassionate and empathetic and non-suspicious people.

58:27

You would think I went through

58:29

the war, but then what I

58:32

tell my therapist is that the

58:34

generational trauma is that I'm hyper-figilant.

58:36

I'm probably speaking nonsense. But what

58:38

I do say is some people

58:40

have a more dim view of

58:42

human nature. And if that is

58:44

true, because... Because I always say,

58:46

you know, there are racists, racists,

58:49

neither outlets, sometimes they're Twitter, like

58:51

there are some people who have

58:53

odious points of view. There's people

58:55

that do not see my humanity.

58:57

How do we go from there?

58:59

Because I think there's, maybe there's

59:01

an in-between. Yeah, but I don't

59:04

think that those other people were

59:06

talking about though, that's my point.

59:08

Oh, okay. So in these circles

59:10

that, you know, so people on

59:12

university campuses who, you know, Don't

59:14

feel comfortable Saying what they think

59:16

and not the crazy racists on

59:19

Twitter the crazy racists on Twitter

59:21

do not interest me because I

59:23

don't think It's even worth. I

59:25

mean, there's some people that you

59:27

shouldn't even bother engaging with or

59:29

trying to change their mind talking

59:31

about the fringe or no You're

59:34

talking about maybe the masses, the

59:36

collective in the middle, or somewhere

59:38

in the middle. Yes, and I

59:40

think it's important to say that

59:42

because sometimes I think that instead

59:44

of talking about that, we then

59:46

sort of reach for the fringes

59:49

as examples. As a justification. Yeah,

59:51

it's kind of also like saying

59:53

that people who think that women,

59:55

there are in this country, many

59:57

people who still, I mean, people

59:59

in this government, who think that

1:00:01

just by virtue of being a

1:00:04

woman, you're somehow incapable of certain

1:00:06

things, right. Right. I don't mean

1:00:08

those people. So the atmosphere on

1:00:10

university campuses today in this country

1:00:12

just seems to me, and so

1:00:14

when Trevor says and someone says,

1:00:16

well, I can't speak to them

1:00:19

because fundamentally they believe something that

1:00:21

is so... And so that's my

1:00:23

point. I'm thinking, did many people

1:00:25

suddenly turn or did our own

1:00:27

perception change? Because these people that

1:00:29

somehow have become sober that you

1:00:31

can never speak to them again.

1:00:34

They're kind of in your circle.

1:00:36

I mean, they were there 20

1:00:38

years ago, right? I mean, they're

1:00:40

not in the fringes of Twitter.

1:00:42

They're in your community. Yeah. Yeah.

1:00:44

And so what is it that

1:00:46

has happened? It just feels to

1:00:49

me a kind of confusing, I

1:00:51

don't fully understand it, but I

1:00:53

don't trust it. So I don't,

1:00:55

I don't. Okay, yeah, I get

1:00:57

it. Okay, so I'll, this is

1:00:59

how I think about it. One,

1:01:01

I think social media dramatically changed

1:01:04

our perception of where people sit

1:01:06

in reality, right? It gave us

1:01:08

a flattened view of people, because

1:01:10

that's what gets the algorithm, it's

1:01:12

what ropes us in. So I

1:01:14

will see the worst of you.

1:01:16

Because the worst of you is

1:01:19

what inflames me the most. Well,

1:01:21

I'll only see the best of

1:01:23

you because it attaches me to

1:01:25

you. But the nuance is boring,

1:01:27

you know, so and they show

1:01:29

you this with the algorithm. Like

1:01:31

if you sit down with the

1:01:34

engineers, they'll show you, if somebody

1:01:36

writes, it's a lovely day outside,

1:01:38

it'll go nowhere. If you say,

1:01:40

best day ever, it goes somewhere.

1:01:42

And if you say worst day

1:01:44

ever, it goes somewhere. But if

1:01:46

you use adjectives and descriptors that

1:01:49

are like, they don't evoke something

1:01:51

extreme. It doesn't really do anything.

1:01:53

If you wrote a little tweet

1:01:55

about a president and you said,

1:01:57

you know, this president's not great,

1:01:59

but they're not the worst, and

1:02:01

I guess everyone has their flaws,

1:02:04

it's not gonna go anywhere. It's

1:02:06

not gonna go anywhere. It's not

1:02:08

gonna go anywhere. It's not gonna

1:02:10

go anywhere. It's not gonna go

1:02:12

anywhere. It's not gonna go anywhere.

1:02:14

It's not gonna go anywhere. It's

1:02:16

not gonna go anywhere. It's not

1:02:19

gonna go anywhere. It's not gonna

1:02:21

go anywhere. You go, this president

1:02:23

is destroying this country. They are

1:02:25

the worst thing. And I think

1:02:27

that started to filter into the

1:02:29

discourse in American politics. And I

1:02:31

think politicians, I genuinely put a

1:02:34

lot of blame at their feet.

1:02:36

Because I think American politicians spent

1:02:38

a lot of time using the

1:02:40

language that really only wrestlers should

1:02:42

use about their opponents. You know?

1:02:44

So they would come out there

1:02:46

and they would say things like,

1:02:49

I remember the daily show yet,

1:02:51

but... in our first few years

1:02:53

we went to New Hampshire for

1:02:55

the primaries. And I remember being

1:02:57

so shocked at how Lindsay Graham's

1:02:59

team was buddy-buddy with Hillary Clinton's

1:03:01

team. And Lindsay Graham would send

1:03:04

Hillary Clinton birthday messages and talk

1:03:06

about her family. When you saw

1:03:08

these people on a stage speaking

1:03:10

about each other, they didn't even

1:03:12

mince words. They would say, this

1:03:14

person is going to destroy this

1:03:16

country. They're killing this country. You

1:03:19

know, and I've spoken to people

1:03:21

who are. far smarter than me

1:03:23

in the world of politics and

1:03:25

they say it all started with

1:03:27

Clinton around the Monica Lewinsky. They

1:03:29

say that's when American politics became

1:03:31

personal and like quote-unquote evil not

1:03:34

evil. You know, it was created

1:03:36

by Newt Gingrich. Yeah, yeah, but

1:03:38

I think that's where it became

1:03:40

a thing. So if your leaders

1:03:42

are saying, you see now this

1:03:44

is where now we come back

1:03:46

to other politics. One

1:03:48

of the things I've loved about

1:03:50

going back to South Africa frequently

1:03:52

is realizing that even in the

1:03:54

doldrums of fighting in politics, I've

1:03:56

never heard a politician. the other

1:03:58

person is a devil or they're

1:04:01

destroying the country or they don't

1:04:03

agree with how they're doing it.

1:04:05

They'll say they're incompetent at their

1:04:07

job, they haven't met service delivery,

1:04:09

but I really, I made my

1:04:11

memory. Those are tax, think of

1:04:13

the things that people have said,

1:04:15

right, about other politicians, and then

1:04:17

think of how incongruous that is

1:04:19

with them and how they are

1:04:21

with each other. They have lunch

1:04:23

together, they have dinner together, they,

1:04:25

right? What then happens is... their

1:04:27

fans then adopt a thing that

1:04:29

they don't believe in. But now

1:04:31

the fans are the ones who

1:04:33

control the theater of it all,

1:04:35

the spectacle. And I don't know

1:04:37

if you, there's a really amazing

1:04:39

documentary I watched about Vince McMahon.

1:04:41

It's fascinating, even if you don't

1:04:43

like wrestling, I recommend everybody watch

1:04:45

this thing. Vince McMahon is the

1:04:47

man who basically made wrestling what

1:04:49

it is today, right? I promise

1:04:51

you know, don't, you, it's even

1:04:53

better if you don't like wrestling,

1:04:55

in fact. Go and watch it.

1:04:57

And one of the most revealing

1:04:59

of a life is so short.

1:05:01

Let me tell you how much

1:05:03

I want to watch. I would

1:05:05

not recommend this to you if

1:05:07

I did not believe it would

1:05:09

give you an insight into America

1:05:11

that very few documentaries can, right?

1:05:13

Because one of the main things

1:05:15

that shows you is how like,

1:05:17

there's a point where, long story

1:05:19

short, the wrestling federations are splitting.

1:05:21

And the wrestlers decide before these,

1:05:23

like a few of the wrestlers

1:05:25

leave, they decide they're gonna give

1:05:27

each other a big hug on

1:05:29

the stage and they're gonna. they'll

1:05:31

basically drop the facade and you

1:05:33

should see the crowd in the

1:05:35

way they react. The crowd, I

1:05:37

was like, but truly they know

1:05:39

that it's not real. The crowd

1:05:41

got very angry. The crowd got,

1:05:43

they were furious. They were, they

1:05:45

were, they were, they were like,

1:05:47

how, how could you, how could

1:05:49

Sean Michael's, hug, you know, triple

1:05:51

age, how, how, how it was?

1:05:53

And I was like, oh, yeah,

1:05:55

this is, this in many ways

1:05:58

is what I think has happened

1:06:00

with American politics, American politics and

1:06:02

to discourse. So these are my,

1:06:04

these are our enemies. People then

1:06:06

adopted them. Do you now discuss

1:06:08

with your enemy? I think we're

1:06:10

putting too much blame on politicians.

1:06:12

Oh no, I'm not putting all

1:06:14

of it. And not on responsibility

1:06:16

on... On individuals? Yeah, and also,

1:06:18

I mean, which came first? What

1:06:20

you said about social media, I

1:06:22

agree more with, which is... Yeah,

1:06:24

I mean, this whole politician thing.

1:06:26

You think everybody watches politicians? I

1:06:28

mean... I think everybody's affected by

1:06:30

them. I think Donald Trump has

1:06:32

shifted. Yeah, but he's running a

1:06:34

cult. No, but yeah, it's different.

1:06:36

Aren't they all in some way,

1:06:38

shape, or form? The Democrats is

1:06:40

a bad cult. No, but it's

1:06:42

still, but I'm saying like, let's

1:06:44

take the Democrats away. Let's look

1:06:46

at people because the Republicans also

1:06:48

weren't great. Obama. Yeah, we talked

1:06:50

about it with Josh where he

1:06:52

said, that's why he calls him

1:06:54

white Obama. represented to so many

1:06:56

people, especially black people, Trump represents

1:06:58

to like so many white people

1:07:00

where they go, ah, this is

1:07:02

our moment, this is our, the

1:07:04

sort of lost dream, the lost

1:07:06

idea, and it's a comedy premise,

1:07:08

but he's not going, these are

1:07:10

the same people, he's just saying

1:07:12

for them, that is their promise,

1:07:14

you know what I mean? One

1:07:16

speaks to the darkness, the other

1:07:18

speaks to the light, and there's

1:07:20

an overlap in their voters, and

1:07:22

they both speak to some aspirations,

1:07:24

but in different ways. He ugly,

1:07:26

you know, it's hope but in

1:07:28

different directions Okay, Obama goes hope

1:07:30

you're not sold. I love it

1:07:32

No, no, I'm not I mean

1:07:34

Chema Man is not sold on

1:07:36

anything though. I like it. No,

1:07:38

I mean, this is true. This

1:07:40

is true. The same Christianos is

1:07:42

not sold. I don't expect to

1:07:44

sell you on something No, I

1:07:46

am sold on something No, I'm

1:07:48

just thinking about it. And yeah,

1:07:50

whatever it's not interesting to me

1:07:52

So yeah, so I will say

1:07:54

this for the I think it's

1:07:57

a lot harder. I understand where

1:07:59

a student or any person comes,

1:08:01

and I, to talk of empathy,

1:08:03

I understand it in all ways,

1:08:05

to be honest with you. I

1:08:07

can see somebody who goes, know,

1:08:09

this country, we have to completely

1:08:11

change this and it's gone to

1:08:13

the dogs, quote unquote. But then

1:08:15

I also understand somebody who says

1:08:17

a lot of the language you're

1:08:19

using or a lot of these

1:08:21

ideas, you don't even know where

1:08:23

they came from. So you may

1:08:25

be thinking of it just through

1:08:27

the lens of school choice. But

1:08:29

for many people. who have like

1:08:31

dug into the trenches of where

1:08:33

ideas come from, you start to

1:08:35

realize that some of the ideas

1:08:37

are innocuous in their sound, but

1:08:39

where they were written, you know

1:08:41

what I mean? Like how they

1:08:43

were created. That's fair, that's fair.

1:08:45

But the person who supports school

1:08:47

choice does not know. I agree

1:08:49

with this history. I agree with

1:08:51

the competition that that person should

1:08:53

know and then that person is

1:08:55

judged on that and then that

1:08:57

person is ignored and blacklisted. But

1:08:59

that person does not know. Yes.

1:09:01

And it's also this new world

1:09:03

where you're not even a lot

1:09:05

of curiosity is dead. And I

1:09:07

as a person who just I

1:09:09

love learning and I just keep

1:09:11

thinking what what have we lost

1:09:13

in this new sort of world

1:09:15

where people don't even Even to

1:09:17

ask a question, you're uncomfortable. I

1:09:19

remember when I spoke at an

1:09:21

Ivy League university, which will be

1:09:23

unnamed, and so I had a

1:09:25

few of the students in a

1:09:27

sort of private meeting where I

1:09:29

just, because I like to know

1:09:31

what young people are really thinking

1:09:33

away from the grown-ups. And so

1:09:35

we started talking and then I

1:09:37

said, you know, I knew if

1:09:39

you have like uncomfortable to say

1:09:41

what you really think. Everyone was

1:09:43

like, no. And then one person

1:09:45

goes, yeah, but sometimes, and suddenly

1:09:47

all of them were like, yeah,

1:09:49

sometimes. And even that struck me,

1:09:51

because I remember thinking, we've gone

1:09:54

from that kind of almost forced

1:09:56

conformity to suddenly thinking, okay, maybe

1:09:58

I can actually say what I'm

1:10:00

really thinking, right? And there was

1:10:02

something about it that just made

1:10:04

me sad, because I thought they

1:10:06

were graduating. And I thought, what

1:10:08

have they lost out on learning

1:10:10

in the four years they've been

1:10:12

here? Because they've been too onshore,

1:10:14

uncomfortable about asking questions. And again,

1:10:16

so what I mean about these

1:10:18

kids are not the fringe on

1:10:20

Twitter. Do you know what I

1:10:22

mean? But they already know that

1:10:24

I better be careful, otherwise somebody

1:10:26

would think that I'm... A

1:10:28

person who hits black people. Yeah, yeah,

1:10:30

no, I'm with you. Yeah. And so

1:10:32

I don't know, it just made me,

1:10:35

it just made me so sad. Do

1:10:37

you think that's a byproduct of who

1:10:39

actually holds the power in universities? You

1:10:41

know, like you see funding being pulled,

1:10:43

you see rich donors saying if you

1:10:45

teach that, then I'm pulling my funding,

1:10:47

if you... Yeah, I think a large

1:10:49

part of America's academia problem is money.

1:10:51

There's just so much money that... I

1:10:53

mean even the entitlement of the students

1:10:56

is about money too. I mean the

1:10:58

trophies are high. Yeah high, right? They

1:11:00

are high. And so students feel like

1:11:02

well I've bought this. I mean when

1:11:04

I was when I taught creative writing

1:11:06

at Princeton when I was doing a

1:11:08

fellowship. And I remember a student coming

1:11:10

to me and saying you gave me

1:11:12

a C. I've never gotten a C

1:11:14

in my life. And I was like,

1:11:17

uh-huh, how is that my problem? I

1:11:19

said, can we, I can show you

1:11:21

why? I mean, so I thought, if

1:11:23

the student had come to me to

1:11:25

say, I want to prove to you

1:11:27

that you've kind of, you know, here's

1:11:29

why I should not get the C,

1:11:31

here's the thing on my paper, but

1:11:33

no. The student said, I have never

1:11:35

had a C in my life, this

1:11:37

is my first C, and so I

1:11:40

want you to change it. But my

1:11:42

dear, this is your grade because this

1:11:44

is what you wrote in your paper.

1:11:46

And we can discuss your paper. But

1:11:48

you know, I feel like... So it's

1:11:50

money, money, no really, and then, you

1:11:52

know, they have so much money and

1:11:54

the endowments, but there's, you know, people

1:11:56

are giving them money and so they

1:11:58

have special dinner. for them and so

1:12:01

money I think is a major problem

1:12:03

and that's happening so much more this

1:12:05

whole you know I'm going to I

1:12:07

won't I will withhold my my my

1:12:10

promised grant if you don't do and

1:12:12

then I think Israel Israel Palestine has

1:12:14

really made that so much more you

1:12:16

know whether like if you doing that therefore

1:12:19

and I just think I also just

1:12:21

wish that universities were not so

1:12:23

beholden to people who have money

1:12:26

because then they I think they would

1:12:28

be more courageous I think there's

1:12:30

a large part of me that is

1:12:32

disillusioned, disappointed. That's

1:12:34

what I mean about longing from

1:12:37

I, I'm like on my low-going

1:12:39

dream account. I want, I'm longing

1:12:41

for what is noble, what is

1:12:43

beautiful, I want heroes, I

1:12:45

want people I can look

1:12:47

up to and admire and

1:12:49

learn from. I think there's

1:12:51

a large part of me

1:12:53

that is disillusion, disappointed, even

1:12:55

heartbroken. I hide it in

1:12:57

sarcasm, but it's all there.

1:12:59

Don't go anywhere because we

1:13:01

got more what now after

1:13:03

this. This episode is brought

1:13:05

to you by Atlacian. Atlacian

1:13:07

team collaboration software like

1:13:10

Gira, Confluence and

1:13:12

loom help power

1:13:14

collaboration for enterprise

1:13:16

companies around the globe

1:13:18

with products that enable

1:13:20

AI-powered teamwork doing

1:13:23

the impossible just became

1:13:25

possible. So, join the

1:13:27

83 of the Fortune 500.

1:13:29

that trust Atlacian to help

1:13:32

transform their enterprise. Learn

1:13:34

how to unleash the potential

1:13:37

of your team at

1:13:39

atlacian.com. This episode is brought

1:13:41

to you by Audi. The

1:13:43

all-new fully electric Audi

1:13:45

Q6 Etron is a

1:13:48

huge leap forward featuring

1:13:50

effortless power, serious acceleration,

1:13:52

and the most advanced

1:13:54

tech of any Audi

1:13:56

Audi ever. Experience technology

1:13:59

that puts It's you send

1:14:01

a stage with a panoramic digital

1:14:03

stage. Plus, you can add an

1:14:05

optional screen for front seat passengers

1:14:07

so they can stream my best

1:14:09

work. Or anything you want to

1:14:12

watch, it doesn't have to be

1:14:14

mine. The Q6 eTron is not

1:14:16

just a new EV, it's a

1:14:18

new way to experience driving. Learn

1:14:20

more at audiusa.com. Always pay careful

1:14:22

attention to the road and do

1:14:25

not drive while distracted. Do

1:14:34

you think there's a part of you

1:14:36

that... Not wishes or... I wonder if...

1:14:38

You know, this happens to everyone in

1:14:40

the public space. You and I were

1:14:42

talking about this. I have experienced this.

1:14:45

Almost everyone has. There will be a

1:14:47

moment where it feels like you are

1:14:49

a hero. And then it feels like

1:14:51

the natural part of that journey is

1:14:53

to now... be the villain or to

1:14:56

have like, you know, and I don't

1:14:58

know if it's art imitating life or

1:15:00

vice versa. So like your place high

1:15:02

up that the only. Yeah, like I

1:15:04

think about how if you and I

1:15:07

had a conversation, I remember our first

1:15:09

conversation, it was like I was speaking

1:15:11

to Jesus. No, really, that's how people.

1:15:13

Jimma, they're like, wow, you're going to

1:15:15

speak to Jim, oh, wow, I, oh,

1:15:18

I, ask her how, how, but it

1:15:20

was, it was such a, in a

1:15:22

beautiful way, but it was really, but

1:15:24

people were like, wow, oh, I, and

1:15:26

you know, your words were gospel and

1:15:28

this whole thing, and then I remember

1:15:31

saying now to people, I was like,

1:15:33

oh, I'm going to speak to Jimma,

1:15:35

and they were like, oh, yeah, get

1:15:37

you get you in trouble, you might

1:15:39

get in a little trouble, they might

1:15:42

get in a little trouble, they might

1:15:44

get in a little trouble, they might

1:15:46

get in a little trouble, they might

1:15:48

be like, they might be like, they

1:15:50

might be like, they might be like,

1:15:53

they might be like, they might be

1:15:55

like, they might be like, they might

1:15:57

be like, they might be like, like,

1:15:59

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:16:01

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:16:04

like Yeah, no, well, I mean, you're

1:16:06

not on social media, I guess, but

1:16:08

I don't know if it's because people

1:16:10

wish for it to be the natural

1:16:12

progression or if, sort of going to

1:16:14

what we started with, your fame, sort

1:16:17

of metastasizes for some people. they wish

1:16:19

for you to be. They create an

1:16:21

idea of everything that you must think.

1:16:23

And if you deviate at any point

1:16:25

from what they think you think, then

1:16:28

they go, the whole thing must come

1:16:30

down. Does that make sense? That's interesting.

1:16:32

How would it get you in trouble

1:16:34

though? How would what get me in

1:16:36

trouble? Talking to me. Well, everyone has

1:16:39

a different opinion on why. Some people

1:16:41

will be like, oh, you're going to

1:16:43

talk to her, she's anti-trans. How are

1:16:45

you, I mean, are you going to

1:16:47

talk to a transphobic? And I'm like,

1:16:50

I don't think Chimamanda's transphobic. And they're

1:16:52

like, oh, oh, oh, well, you better

1:16:54

check. Then someone else will go, oh,

1:16:56

she's right wing leaning. Then I'm like,

1:16:58

no, you see what she says about

1:17:01

anti-canceil culture. And then, and... at all

1:17:03

costs for my own opinion on something

1:17:05

and then allow the world to in

1:17:07

some way shape or form bump up

1:17:09

against that opinion because I don't live

1:17:11

in isolation. But when I read your

1:17:14

piece on how we, it wasn't cancel

1:17:16

call, you said something was beautiful was

1:17:18

about, was purity or forgive me, I

1:17:20

remember the message but not all the

1:17:22

words, but it was I remember reading

1:17:25

and thinking, damn, this is a really

1:17:27

insightful. messy and honest view on how

1:17:29

we're dealing with conversations in society. You're

1:17:31

failing a purity test and we're writing

1:17:33

people off. And you know, I've said

1:17:36

this to you a thousand times, Christian.

1:17:38

I go, guys, it's not sustainable to

1:17:40

lose your whole family because your uncle

1:17:42

said this thing. I was like, politicians

1:17:44

will come and go, topics will come

1:17:47

and go, the people in your life,

1:17:49

hopefully won't. I'm a big fan of

1:17:51

that, right? This is the reason I'm

1:17:53

not on social media media. I come

1:17:55

through it from a different perspective. how

1:17:57

in America is like, you're right, you're

1:18:00

left, you're right, I think people contain

1:18:02

multiple ideological positions. On some issues, on

1:18:04

some, like right wing meaning on what,

1:18:06

left, there is no one. Yes, yes,

1:18:08

but it's buffet politics. I don't know,

1:18:11

what are right wing ideas? I mean,

1:18:13

right. Even that has to be true,

1:18:15

right? Which is why it's not about,

1:18:17

and I agree with you that nobody,

1:18:19

we're not, we're not pure. I mean,

1:18:22

you know, and especially when you're a

1:18:24

person who comes from, you know, the

1:18:26

reasonable, reasonable regions of the world, that

1:18:28

is Africa, Asia, Latin America, the Middle

1:18:30

East. You kind of understand, you know,

1:18:33

you have uncles who, I have relatives

1:18:35

who. still think that women really should

1:18:37

not be walking outside the home. And

1:18:39

you know, and then there's me. And

1:18:41

we still happen to get along. And

1:18:44

I think that there's certain views that,

1:18:46

some of my views have changed as

1:18:48

I've become older. Even I think in

1:18:50

some ways my feminism has changed. I

1:18:52

think, for example, when I was younger,

1:18:54

I didn't want to talk about women's

1:18:57

bodies, because I felt that this is

1:18:59

how they stigmatized women. I felt like

1:19:01

no, nobody should talk about PMS because

1:19:03

they use that to justify excluding women.

1:19:05

They'll say things like, how can a

1:19:08

woman be president, which has PMS is

1:19:10

going to press the button, right? But

1:19:12

now I realize, actually, men press the

1:19:14

button without... PMS is an excuse. So

1:19:16

maybe women are still the better choice,

1:19:19

right? If we can just get their

1:19:21

home unstable, then we're fine. But men,

1:19:23

my God, no PMS and they're just

1:19:25

doing crazy things. But that has changed

1:19:27

for me. I can list people in

1:19:30

every field, comedians who say, I mean,

1:19:32

now I say a thing that's a

1:19:34

joke. It used to be agreed that

1:19:36

this was a joke. We all knew

1:19:38

that this wasn't real. It's fiction. I

1:19:40

do not want to kill my mother-in-in-in-law.

1:19:43

And now someone goes, oh, for you

1:19:45

to be furthering the idea of violence.

1:19:47

You're like, no, no, no, no, no,

1:19:49

no. You know, like Jimmy Carr says

1:19:51

it really beautifully, the British comedian. He

1:19:54

had this thing that he used to

1:19:56

play at the beginning of his shows

1:19:58

in response to this. And he'd have

1:20:00

a message that would come on and

1:20:02

he would say, hello, I'm Jimmy Carr

1:20:05

and I'm a comedian. I want you

1:20:07

to know that I'm going to be

1:20:09

making some jokes about terrible things about

1:20:11

terrible things. the jokes are not making

1:20:13

the terrible things and the jokes are

1:20:16

not changing the terrible things but these

1:20:18

are the jokes about the things. So

1:20:20

have a good time, these are jokes

1:20:22

and but I was amazed that even

1:20:24

he had to like put that in

1:20:26

his show, do you get what I'm

1:20:29

saying? But I do think though that

1:20:31

I can tell you that I can

1:20:33

tell you that the certain jokes I

1:20:35

will not laugh at, that certain things

1:20:37

I refuse to laugh. It's not like,

1:20:40

oh, it's just my taste. It's more

1:20:42

that I think, in some ways, similar

1:20:44

to what you said about school choice,

1:20:46

about how there are people who know

1:20:48

that maybe deep down the language or

1:20:51

in the foundation of that idea, there's

1:20:53

something that's like, you know, toxic or...

1:20:55

There's something pernicious. Yeah. Yeah. So that's

1:20:57

what I mean about, there's certain jokes

1:20:59

I won't laugh about, because I just,

1:21:02

I think that there's certain jokes that

1:21:04

are not just jokes. but I think

1:21:06

this is a dangerous road to go

1:21:08

down because you're a fiction writer. So

1:21:10

someone could say to you, Chimamanda, your

1:21:13

book, this cannot exist in because it

1:21:15

is not, it is, you know. No,

1:21:17

no, cannot exist. So here's the difference.

1:21:19

Yeah. I will not laugh at that

1:21:21

joke. But I'm not laugh at that

1:21:23

joke. But I'm not going to say

1:21:26

you cannot say that joke. Okay. No,

1:21:28

no, no, no. But that's what I

1:21:30

mean by it. That's what I'm saying

1:21:32

it is taste. And it's racist. And

1:21:34

as comedians, we say, the craft of

1:21:37

what the person is doing in terms

1:21:39

of making a thing funny, they've done.

1:21:41

But we also acknowledging the roots of

1:21:43

it, it is racist. The same way

1:21:45

I can look at like food. Yeah,

1:21:48

and I go like, well, this food

1:21:50

is poisonous, but it's delicious. Do you

1:21:52

know what I mean? And so I

1:21:54

think, I think we're on the same

1:21:56

page there. I'm not saying people should

1:21:59

laugh at everything, I don't think people

1:22:01

should enjoy every book, etc. Yeah, that's

1:22:03

that's what I think you know, we

1:22:05

actually we're saying the same. thing. Yeah.

1:22:07

But no, but Trevor, I want to

1:22:09

go back to you, ask me a

1:22:12

question about making a decision, sort of

1:22:14

almost solo on your own, and I

1:22:16

don't think of it as that kind

1:22:18

of clear-cut dichotomy, because I don't think

1:22:20

it's even possible. Oh, I was saying

1:22:23

clear-cut, I was saying more like how

1:22:25

do you find the balance, like what

1:22:27

do you think the responsibility is, I

1:22:29

lean... Right, we're leaning. I lean towards

1:22:31

thinking. Okay. I really believe in sort

1:22:34

of lucid thinking. Yeah. And I like

1:22:36

clarity. And I'm a writer. I also

1:22:38

like words to mean what they mean.

1:22:40

Hmm. I like clarity of language. I

1:22:42

like clarity of thought. I like thinking

1:22:45

about things. And you know, from the

1:22:47

time I was a little girl. I

1:22:49

just was never a person who went

1:22:51

along with what I was supposed to.

1:22:53

to do or believe. I've always kind

1:22:56

of wanted to, wait, I want to

1:22:58

sit with this for a while and

1:23:00

think about it. But also I want

1:23:02

to make decisions based on knowledge and

1:23:04

information. So I'm very keen on learning.

1:23:06

Like if there's a subject and so

1:23:09

I want to go read about it.

1:23:11

So AI, I have been reading books

1:23:13

about AI because I don't know what

1:23:15

the hell that's about. So now I

1:23:17

know things like this generative AI and

1:23:20

there's predictive AI. And did you know

1:23:22

about the training models? make up my

1:23:24

own mind, it's not that I just

1:23:26

sit there with nothing. I want to,

1:23:28

I want to gather information and then

1:23:31

I want to process it for myself.

1:23:33

You're a student? Yes, I'm a student.

1:23:35

And I always want to be a

1:23:37

student, but what I can tell you

1:23:39

is that I'm never going to be

1:23:42

swayed by criticism. Never. That's never going

1:23:44

to happen. I am the daughter of

1:23:46

James and Gristadici, and it's not going

1:23:48

to happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1:23:50

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1:23:52

yeah. That's it. That's it. That's it.

1:23:55

that I have my opinions. I can,

1:23:57

I, and you know, and I can

1:23:59

have conversations with you about why I

1:24:01

have those opinions. And I'm also very

1:24:03

keen to know why you disagree. You

1:24:06

know, if you're... if you're a person

1:24:08

who can actually make coherent sentences about

1:24:10

what you've said. So yeah. So you

1:24:12

encourage the discourse and the dialogue, but

1:24:14

it has to be grounded in, I

1:24:17

guess, intellectual curiosity. And it seems like

1:24:19

from reading your essays in your work,

1:24:21

a mutual respect. Yes. Because the affront

1:24:23

to you is just like, don't be

1:24:25

disrespectful, which is how I don't disrespect

1:24:28

me, or I'm going to leave. Yes.

1:24:30

If there's disrespect, I will not take

1:24:32

it. I'm just not going to. And

1:24:34

I am loved. I had the best

1:24:36

parents in the world. So I do

1:24:38

not need to campaign for your love.

1:24:41

I don't need to do. I don't

1:24:43

need to change myself for you. If

1:24:45

you like me, I'm happy that you

1:24:47

like me. If you don't like me,

1:24:49

I'm still me. And I wish that

1:24:52

it was easier for more people. Especially

1:24:54

women. There's a line in the book

1:24:56

where one of your characters is basically

1:24:58

talking about... I

1:25:01

think like how the world is shaped

1:25:03

and they basically say something to the

1:25:05

effect of, it's almost like America doesn't

1:25:07

know that the world isn't America. Yes,

1:25:09

really America is America. Yeah, and I

1:25:12

remember having this discussion with a friend

1:25:14

of mine who was taken aback because

1:25:16

they really felt offended and understood why.

1:25:18

Is there anything you do not understand?

1:25:20

No, I tried to understand most things

1:25:23

genuinely. I think everything is understandable. I

1:25:25

think everything is understandable, but I'm just

1:25:27

like agreeing is different, I think. So

1:25:29

I remember... You would make a good

1:25:31

fiction writer. This is actually how we're

1:25:34

supposed to see... You know, you're supposed

1:25:36

to kind of understand everybody's point of

1:25:38

view without necessarily agreeing. Because he's biracial

1:25:40

and he was born in a part-side

1:25:42

stuff. He didn't fit anywhere, so he

1:25:44

had to understand. No, I think so

1:25:47

in many ways. I think the different

1:25:49

bi- I've been forced, I've been trained

1:25:51

from my birth to be that way

1:25:53

as a person. So I had no

1:25:55

one way of celebrating a Christmas. I

1:25:58

had no one way of speaking a

1:26:00

language. I had no one way of

1:26:02

my hair looking, my face looking. I

1:26:04

had no one way of my country

1:26:06

being. I had, so I've never believed

1:26:09

that there is a one way. You

1:26:11

get what I'm saying? So, so I

1:26:13

remember like one of the first ones

1:26:15

that came to me was, I remember,

1:26:17

I told this as a joke in

1:26:20

one of my shows long ago, but

1:26:22

I said, I always found it interesting

1:26:24

that people would mock someone with another

1:26:26

accent, but people would mock someone with

1:26:28

another accent, And that was something that,

1:26:30

so for me, when you talk about

1:26:33

understand, I would always go, yeah, if

1:26:35

somebody has a funny accent, it can

1:26:37

be funny, but don't ever forget that

1:26:39

it means that they speak another language

1:26:41

fluently. That's why they have the accent.

1:26:44

And so, when I think of these

1:26:46

things, I was doing shows in the

1:26:48

Middle East. And my friends said to

1:26:50

me, hey ma'am. I mean, aren't you

1:26:52

conflicted? You go to the Middle East

1:26:55

and you do shows and I said,

1:26:57

what do you want me to be

1:26:59

conflicted about? And they said, well, I

1:27:01

mean, you know, their views on gay

1:27:03

marriage. And I said, it's interesting that

1:27:06

you asked me this because America's views

1:27:08

on gay marriage are not as old

1:27:10

as you think. Like, this is a

1:27:12

now thing. Do you get what I'm

1:27:14

saying? I'm not dismissing it. Far from

1:27:16

it, you know what I mean? But

1:27:19

what I'm saying is, it's interesting how,

1:27:21

for me, when America has finished with

1:27:23

an issue, has decided a place, it

1:27:25

then now goes, that is correct now

1:27:27

for the world. So before gay marriages,

1:27:30

no, gay marriages, no, God, Adam and

1:27:32

Eve, not Adam and Steve, come on,

1:27:34

we all agree on this. America says

1:27:36

gay marriage and then America goes on

1:27:38

a conquest around the world pointing at

1:27:41

every country to be like where's your

1:27:43

gay marriage? And then I go guys

1:27:45

How old is the UAE as a

1:27:47

as a place like as a as

1:27:49

an actual country? How old is it?

1:27:52

And I go if you look at

1:27:54

the advancements they've made in the time

1:27:56

that they've been a country Versus how

1:27:58

long it took America to get to

1:28:00

those places. pretty impressive. Now you want

1:28:03

them to do it overnight because you've

1:28:05

already agreed upon it, but you're not

1:28:07

giving them their time to get to

1:28:09

it, which I think we all do

1:28:11

as people. Why have you not found

1:28:13

Jesus yet? I found Jesus. Then you're

1:28:16

like, yeah, but there's a time when

1:28:18

you hadn't found Jesus. Yes. Yes, but

1:28:20

there's a time when you hadn't found

1:28:22

Jesus. Yes, but now that I found

1:28:24

him, why don't you find Jesus? Do

1:28:27

you know? And it's

1:28:29

true, it's true about Americans. And I

1:28:31

think it comes from, I mean, just

1:28:33

listening to you and, you know, this

1:28:35

person says to you aren't you conflicted,

1:28:37

then you're saying, you know, let's look

1:28:40

at the UAE, how old is it?

1:28:42

Yeah. And I'm just thinking, you know,

1:28:44

that American point of view often comes

1:28:46

from a place of just not knowing

1:28:48

very much about the world. And also

1:28:50

not, I sometimes feel that... That argument

1:28:52

in this country are not rooted in

1:28:55

information and knowledge. It's not just that

1:28:57

often they can feel like performances, but

1:28:59

it would be nice if, so someone

1:29:01

said, why aren't you conflicted? And someone

1:29:03

else says, no, I'm not conflicted. Well,

1:29:05

people like jokes, and so I'm going

1:29:08

to go where people like jokes. I

1:29:10

think that's kind of what you would

1:29:12

often hear in America. Okay. Rather than,

1:29:14

how old is a UAE? how long

1:29:16

does it take a society to evolve?

1:29:18

What are the changes that have happened

1:29:20

that speak to a certain kind of

1:29:23

hopeful progressivism? That doesn't happen. So Trevor

1:29:25

you need to start classes. I mean

1:29:27

this is the class. No, which you

1:29:29

teach people. No, but really I'm just

1:29:31

thinking and I think it is true

1:29:33

about really a lot of things. You

1:29:35

know, I just wish that sometimes if

1:29:38

there was a huge issue of the

1:29:40

day, outrage of the day, that people

1:29:42

would be like, I'm not going to

1:29:44

have an opinion until I've read a

1:29:46

book about it. You know, Trevor's the

1:29:48

king of that, not the book, but

1:29:51

remember at the show, the daily show,

1:29:53

I think it was Jesse Smalet. example,

1:29:55

always come to mind. Jesse Somelay, the

1:29:57

incident happened where he said he was

1:29:59

assaulted by these Trump people. We're doing

1:30:01

the meeting, we're watching the videos, and

1:30:03

you know, people are, oh, this is

1:30:06

so outrageous, this is so sad. Myself,

1:30:08

who's like Trotsky on the far left,

1:30:10

and another writer who I won't name,

1:30:12

but it's pretty right wing, we both

1:30:14

said, there's something not right. And Trevor

1:30:16

said, you see these two people, they

1:30:18

never agree. Guys, let's pause. Trevor said,

1:30:21

we're not going to, we're not going

1:30:23

to cover this. We're not going to

1:30:25

go for like mega racists. And we

1:30:27

had all the roles, because it's like,

1:30:29

it's a big production to get all

1:30:31

these clicks. We had all the roles.

1:30:34

People had to take, people had made

1:30:36

jokes about how it was. And Trevor

1:30:38

was like, let's take a beat. And

1:30:40

this was like on the Monday or

1:30:42

Tuesday. it emerges that you know the

1:30:44

story wasn't what he was professing it

1:30:46

to be and Trevor was like okay

1:30:49

now we're ready and I always think

1:30:51

about that when a story breaks or

1:30:53

there's some hot button issue because I'm

1:30:55

listen I'm always like I'm quite fiery

1:30:57

as you may have gathered I used

1:30:59

to be of the view of like

1:31:01

this is my opinion but Trevor's very

1:31:04

good at Let's take a beat. Let's

1:31:06

read more. I used to be forget

1:31:08

it's frustrated because I'd be like, this

1:31:10

happened to these people. They're dying. And

1:31:12

Trevor said, well, people die every day.

1:31:14

We can't, like, we have to have

1:31:17

an informed response to what's happening. I

1:31:19

feel the same way. So here's where

1:31:21

I have a compassion for people. I

1:31:23

think it's unfair for us to expect

1:31:25

that of people because they are living

1:31:27

in the world that they're living in.

1:31:29

You know? No, I honestly, unfair to

1:31:32