0:00

Welcome to What Now? Another episode of

0:02

the podcast, where this time I'm in

0:04

South Africa. And if you've listened to

0:06

enough of the podcast, you'll know that

0:08

when I'm in South Africa, that means

0:11

I'm with my people. And when I'm

0:13

with my people, we create different episodes.

0:15

On one of the first ones I

0:17

did, I did for my 40th birthday,

0:19

was Anélem Daughter, a good friend of

0:21

mine. She's a broadcaster, she is an

0:23

executive producer, an all-around media mogul, and

0:25

most importantly. a super mom and my

0:27

other friend sees what he's a TV

0:29

presenter a radio host business person

0:31

and economics I think he has

0:34

a degree in some he studies

0:36

a lot whatever the point is

0:38

he's a friend and we're gonna

0:41

be chatting together disclaimer for everyone

0:43

who listens these are South Africans

0:45

I'm including myself so we're gonna

0:47

talk like South Africans and yeah

0:49

Whatever happens happens because when my

0:52

friends and I do a podcast

0:54

we try and make it as

0:56

informal as possible. So if you're

0:58

looking for like the dictionary definition

1:00

of like a simple podcast you

1:03

came to the wrong place. Scroll

1:05

to the next one in your

1:07

feed now and enjoy that. But

1:09

if you're looking for like an

1:11

honest get-together of three human beings

1:14

who love respect

1:16

and fight with

1:18

each other, then

1:20

you've come to

1:22

the right place.

1:24

Welcome to what

1:26

now? With Trevanoa.

1:48

Oh man. You look at

1:50

me like, yeah. Yeah, this

1:52

is who I is. Oh that

1:54

is so funny. Do you

1:57

think I am? Like, so

1:59

well. Welcome guys, happy new

2:01

year, happy new year, can you

2:03

still say happy new year? Yeah,

2:06

do you, of course, what do

2:08

you mean? Until, okay, what's your

2:10

time, what's your cut off? I

2:12

mean, you know, Valentine's Day. It

2:14

depends how well I know

2:16

you, it also depends how well I

2:18

know you, so it depends how

2:20

well I know you, so

2:23

with you guys, it's like,

2:25

okay, you're pushing it, you're

2:27

pushing, like a gradient for

2:30

everything. Caesar's got like a

2:32

graph for everything the x-axis

2:34

is friendship time then

2:36

the y-axis is but

2:39

remember Caesar didn't

2:41

have friends he's

2:44

got cousins we we

2:46

are the first friends

2:48

in Caesar's life please

2:50

let's remember happy happy new

2:52

year Oh wow, okay. Okay. All

2:54

right, all right, all right, at

2:56

least you're on form, we're in

2:58

the mix. I think differently about

3:00

the conversations we're gonna have because

3:02

I enjoy delving into your minds as

3:05

friends, but also as problem solvers.

3:07

And then I find sometimes when we have

3:09

these conversations, like the last one

3:11

we did on the podcast, people were

3:14

just like, oh yeah, that was an

3:16

interesting conversation and you guys, your friendship,

3:18

your friendship, and what I realize is,

3:21

friendship is almost. the cooking apparatus that

3:23

we use to figure things out. Does

3:25

that make sense? I get you. Because

3:27

everyone can have a conversation with your

3:30

people. There are extra ingredients and extra

3:32

tools that you have, namely your friendship,

3:34

that defines some of the conversation that you

3:36

can't get with a stranger. I think

3:38

it's good to have a conversation with your

3:41

friends because we can say, ah, don't say

3:43

that one in public. Keep that one here.

3:45

Wait, do you think that's still a thing?

3:47

Yes, you guys do to us. No, no,

3:49

no, wait, wait, wait, no, no. But, and

3:51

this is an honest question. Yeah. In fact,

3:54

this is a great question to kick us

3:56

off, because the conversation I wanted

3:58

to have with you was. What are

4:00

you worried about going into the new year

4:02

moving forward? Right? Because a lot of

4:04

people have like a positive outlook. Yeah.

4:06

But I'll start with that funny enough.

4:08

Do you think cancelling is still a thing?

4:10

I think it's finished. I think they're

4:12

attempt to cancel a still way and

4:15

the fact that there could be an attempt

4:17

to cancel you means that you could still

4:19

be canceled because you could be docking diving

4:21

and catch one stray that does cancel you.

4:23

So cancelling is still a thing. This is

4:26

why it is important to ask your friends

4:28

first. They call them a WhatsApp conversation.

4:30

You know, sometimes you'll tweet

4:32

something, you'll put on X, so you'll

4:35

put on Instagram, and someone will be

4:37

like, yeah, yeah, yeah, first start with

4:39

your friends with that one. Yeah, I

4:41

think it's definitely still a thing. I don't

4:43

know. Of course, because if you lose 10%

4:45

of your income that you've lost. Oh, do

4:47

you know what I'm saying? You know what

4:49

I'm looking at even like? Yeah, erosion

4:51

cancellations. Yeah, it's like, you

4:54

know, I was just talking

4:56

about like, you're canceled. It

4:58

feels like it's finished. Like,

5:01

it feels like we're at a

5:03

peak. So, here's the thing. If I'm

5:05

using an analyst departure point,

5:08

right? Then I don't

5:10

necessarily want to take it to

5:12

cancellation and loss of income.

5:14

I would just look at it

5:17

as just how humans interact.

5:19

don't know who they are. That's the first thing.

5:21

Okay. Then, other people know who they are, but

5:24

they're uncomfortable with who they are. Okay. Oh,

5:26

damn. So now, when you have a

5:28

conversation, there are certain things that

5:30

they want to hold back, specifically

5:32

when they're with strangers, because I

5:34

don't want the strangers to gain

5:36

insights to the part that they're

5:38

uncomfortable with. Like their racism or xenophobia?

5:40

All of that. Yeah. Okay. And it

5:42

could be anything. Maybe you're a freak.

5:45

You're just like, oh, too much. Okay. Now

5:47

your friends should know you're a freak. Now

5:49

your friends already know. Like, at least one

5:51

of your friends. There's nothing here. There's nothing

5:53

here that I can say that can shock

5:55

you guys. Yeah, he's one of your friends.

5:57

In the event that you die in a.

5:59

Yeah. One of us must be like, yeah,

6:02

well. Yeah. So now I knew they went

6:04

there. Exactly. I knew he frequented. So now

6:06

we have those conversations, did you go? Okay,

6:08

okay, okay. So I'll get back a little

6:11

bit. And again, it's not because you fear

6:13

being canceled. It's just again, there are certain

6:15

things that are just appropriate and others that

6:17

are inappropriate. That's all it is. Things that

6:19

are appropriate to end public and things that

6:22

are inappropriate. Yes. You get like in public.

6:24

It most like not did come from a

6:26

table. You're so robotic in your thinking. Yeah,

6:28

no, that's what I mean, but you're so

6:31

robotic in your thinking that it really sounds

6:33

like literally the way you said that there

6:35

are inner thoughts and there are outer thoughts

6:37

humans only do inner thoughts the inside. No,

6:40

you've been AI. You've been AI. You really

6:42

have. All right, so what do we go

6:44

around? We'll first, I want the high level

6:46

of what you, what you're worried about, what

6:48

you're worried about, what you worried about, what

6:51

you worried about. at the beginning of the

6:53

year that you think may be a thing.

6:55

Because you know like every year has a

6:57

different feeling. Yeah, yeah, right. So I have

7:00

two. Do you want me to give you

7:02

the two now or is it one round

7:04

around? Give us the two now and then

7:06

I want to hear seizures and then I'll

7:09

give you mine and then we'll we'll see

7:11

where we can get off. The first one

7:13

is my son's turning 10 this year and

7:15

he's going to look externally. And this wasn't

7:17

something that was you know on you know

7:20

on top of my mind until we went

7:22

on holiday and he made a friend a

7:24

friend with a disciplined problem that by the

7:26

end of the holiday I had to say

7:29

to him give me a phone did you

7:31

add this this boy's number I said delete

7:33

him block him we are not going to

7:35

be friends with him type of thing and

7:38

then it had me thinking that you know

7:40

we had a point now where I just

7:42

have to make sure that his self-esteem is

7:44

so high and his confidence is so unshakable

7:46

that things like that don't impress him. He

7:49

has to remember how he was raised at

7:51

home. I love this. Don't say more on

7:53

it. Okay, so the

7:55

problem we got the

7:58

problem there's all the

8:00

worry. Yes. All right.

8:02

What's your second worry? Last

8:05

year we had a Christmas party,

8:07

right? And everybody had to stand

8:09

up and say what they're grateful

8:11

for. Yes Obviously people are grateful

8:13

for you know work and you know

8:15

good relationships and you know being

8:17

financially sound. Yeah, somebody Stood

8:21

up and said that he is grateful for

8:23

how he out of 60 people He's

8:25

the only one who said that and it

8:27

got a lot of us thinking that

8:29

you know We're at a place where anything

8:31

could be something like right now

8:33

I have an issue with my shoulder

8:35

and I'm so scared to go and check

8:37

it out Because I'm so scared they're gonna

8:39

say it's something like oh you've got six

8:41

months. I'm like, no I've

8:44

got things to do. I can't have

8:46

six months and I promise you

8:48

my health is something that is

8:50

just starting to Appear

8:52

in my list of things that I worry

8:54

about think a lot more than it did

8:56

because Sooner later, you know, you have to

8:59

come to terms that you're not immortal You're

9:01

not going to be around here for long,

9:03

you know damn. These are very Okay,

9:05

there's existential worries in different ways sees. What

9:07

are you worried about? So

9:10

this year per se Not

9:12

too much last year. I was worried about

9:14

maybe the possibility of World War three. I

9:16

don't think also now Yeah, it's not gonna

9:18

happen now. Wow, these guys fumbled they

9:21

foobard the what they fumbled the World War

9:23

three They fumbled the opportunity to stop Opportunity

9:32

to start World War three foobard the

9:34

bank. Okay, you're no longer

9:36

worried Oh, I mean, that's a great

9:38

way to start. Yeah, but in the

9:40

short to midterm, I Am

9:42

worried about the type

9:44

of world that my kids who

9:46

grew up in You've got kids

9:49

in theory. Okay. All right Guys,

9:51

you never know your friends can

9:54

now like announce things. So so and

9:56

it's more to what I

9:58

really was talking about as

10:00

all right because you You can do

10:02

everything in your power to protect your children and those

10:04

that you love within the ambiter your

10:07

circle, but then they need to

10:09

exist within a community, right? And when

10:11

they go out, hey man, I'm seeing

10:13

that we're just getting too liberal right

10:16

now and some of those things are

10:18

gonna come back to bite us.

10:20

Okay, I like this. All right,

10:22

great. So Aneles Worry is your

10:24

son is now at an age

10:26

where he's now at an age

10:28

where your son is now at

10:30

an age where... Yeah, it's something.

10:32

Yeah, okay. She's no longer worried

10:34

about World War three, Hugh, but

10:36

worried about the world that his

10:38

children will live in, because now

10:41

there'll be a world. So now

10:43

you've got different problems. Okay, cool.

10:45

The thing I'm worried about, maybe

10:47

it touches a little bit on

10:49

what you're saying, but I worry

10:51

that the global experiment.

10:54

I think for a long time, we

10:56

were seduced by this idea. that

10:58

the whole world could come together as one. And I think a

11:00

lot of it was, a lot of it was sold through the lens

11:03

of trade. Okay, you know what I mean? We always trade

11:05

it, don't get me wrong, we always trade it. But a

11:07

lot of it was sold through the lens of trade. So

11:09

like the Euro Union, you know, it's like, ah, and then

11:11

bricks, Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, it's like, ah, these

11:13

blocks that have all come together. And so Europe at some

11:15

point at some point, it, it, it, it, it, it, it,

11:17

it, it, was like, it, was like, it, it, was like,

11:19

was like, was like, was like, was like, was like, was

11:22

like, was like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

11:24

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

11:26

like, like, like, like, like, I think that that

11:28

is starting to fail because yeah I

11:30

don't think we thought far ahead enough

11:32

or I don't know if we you

11:35

know crossed all the T's and dots

11:37

because we also never did it. Did

11:39

you always believe in it? I was

11:41

just told it I was too young

11:43

to like believe or not believe. I

11:45

believe in it. Oh you did believe in

11:48

it. But I'll tell you I don't think

11:50

this is anything new. If anything

11:52

I just think we need more

11:54

perspective. Because if you go into

11:56

history and just look at how each

11:59

civilization... has a lifespan, it

12:02

usually ends like this. Yeah,

12:04

but that's what I'm, you're just now talking about

12:06

my worry. Yes. And you just

12:08

said you don't have to worry. Yeah, you don't.

12:10

No. Because listen. not about me. You just said

12:12

to me. Hold on. Let me tell you what,

12:14

let me just tell you what you just didn't

12:17

right now. This is what Cesar did. I was

12:19

on a plane and I said, I'm a little

12:21

bit worried that this plane feels like

12:23

it's gonna go down. And Cesar

12:25

said, well, if you look statistically, most planes

12:27

crash around this age. So you're right, but

12:29

you don't have to worry. You literally said

12:31

explain, let me finish. All right, go. You're

12:33

100 % correct. So all civilizations do come to

12:35

an end, but it has to be their

12:37

way so that a new civilization may begin.

12:39

Yes. Right? You just

12:41

have the kind of perspective now at

12:43

your age or you 40, 41, where

12:46

you've seen things go from where they were

12:48

to where they are. Okay. Right? But

12:50

it's not to say that the world's gonna

12:52

end tomorrow. No, I'm not, I don't

12:54

even think that. But you're 100 % correct.

12:56

Things are deteriorating at a rapid race. All

12:58

right, so which one do we start with?

13:00

Which worry do we wanna handle for? I

13:02

actually would love to start with your son.

13:05

Anela's one. I like it. No, okay. Because

13:07

we've been there. Yes. So that one can

13:09

give you one work. So before I say

13:11

anything on it, take me through a

13:13

little bit about how you feel like as a

13:15

mom of a son, 10 years

13:17

old, like

13:20

I understand you saying you worry that

13:22

he's now gonna get external influences, but why

13:24

is that a worry and not like necessarily

13:26

a joy? Oh, because they already

13:28

have been external influences, right? Just

13:30

even you two as an example

13:32

to the relationship that you guys

13:34

have with, I like it. It

13:36

is bordering on uncle, on father

13:38

figure and all of that, right?

13:40

And so I think it's the older

13:42

people because I get to choose them. You

13:44

must remember that. Oh, curious. For a very long

13:46

time, I get to choose who is around

13:48

him. I'm honored that you chose me. I thought

13:50

I was just like defaulted in, but I'm

13:53

glad you chose me. Thank you. And now

13:55

with that is that he, you know,

13:57

also he can't control who is going,

14:00

going to meet type of thing. So granted,

14:02

yes, somebody may spark his interest and it

14:04

will be in a good way, but along

14:06

the line, it's going to be in a

14:08

bad way. And I just want that he's

14:10

to know that he's able to decipher and

14:12

decide for himself that, oh, this one is not the

14:14

one. So tell us the story about him meeting

14:17

this kid. Where did he meet the kid and

14:19

how did you know the kid was bad? And

14:21

why do you think I like he was unable

14:23

to discern between the good and the good and

14:25

the good and the bad of the bad of the

14:27

bad of the bad of the kid? I'm like,

14:29

okay kid, let's square up. But this one, it

14:32

was just like slight discipline issues where if

14:34

we say, hey guys, let's all go, we're

14:36

going now, he'll stay in the pool. Almost

14:39

like looking at me to see, are you

14:41

gonna come in the pool, type of thing.

14:43

Sizing you up. Yeah, sizing, yeah, constantly sizing

14:45

me up. But and I suppose that's

14:47

the relationship that he has with

14:50

his parents, you know, where he's

14:52

constantly pushing, you know, the bones and

14:54

envelope. How old was he? Same ages,

14:56

like they're actually seven days apart.

14:58

They discovered this. Oh, we're best

15:00

friends. You know, seven days apart.

15:03

I'm born this day. He's born that day.

15:05

So I'm like, oh, okay. So where you said,

15:07

get out of the pool. Yeah, he then looked

15:09

at you. Yeah, like. And then what did you

15:11

say? I said, Boudi, I said, get out of

15:13

the pool, you know. And he kind of

15:15

like waddled around a little bit as

15:17

well. Yeah, because I'm trying to

15:20

a picture. Pretty gangster

15:22

for somebody to be

15:24

waiting and challenging you.

15:26

So he doesn't respond.

15:28

No, he doesn't respond.

15:30

Maintaining high contact. That's

15:32

a G. That's a G right there.

15:35

But you see, this is what I'm

15:37

saying is that come out and say

15:39

we're fighting so I know which

15:41

Arsenal to, you know, to

15:44

activate everything. So now when

15:46

you're doing this. And then so now

15:48

now I take like a few because I was also

15:50

in the pool. So oh, where you in the pool?

15:52

No, I was swimming with it and then I got

15:54

out. Okay, got it. So it's also a case of

15:56

kid. Please understand. I'm not too lazy to

15:58

jump back in here. I will come and fetch

16:01

you type of thing, right? And now,

16:03

now I'm looking at, I like it.

16:05

And he's almost like, he's at the

16:07

step of the pool. His friend is

16:09

inside the water and his mother's outside.

16:11

So it was a moment where he

16:13

was deciding. It was a psychological taco

16:15

war. Yes. Would he, you know what?

16:17

Does he want to be good or

16:19

does he want to be cool? Exactly.

16:21

You know, so now, that's how I

16:23

was like, okay, so it was a

16:25

few of those things. Maybe we're in

16:27

the room, we're like, okay, we're going

16:29

for dinner now. Everybody's ready, this kid.

16:31

I'm like, hey, let's go, you know,

16:33

10 minutes. Now we're standing outside, even

16:35

my partner's like, wait, wait, but now

16:37

our child is standing with us. Now

16:39

we're waiting for a stranger's child, you

16:41

know, because we just met you. If

16:43

I may ask, so what heritage is

16:45

this child, is this a... Same as

16:47

I like it. Everything, guys, when I

16:49

say everything was interesting. So you didn't

16:52

even have like a little African swag

16:54

you could pull out just a little,

16:56

a little something yana where you... No,

16:58

not at all. Wow, not at all.

17:00

This is actually more dynamic and interesting.

17:02

I was picturing a white kid and

17:04

I was like, no, this is a

17:06

black kid. Oh wow. When you think

17:08

about it. So, to kind of like

17:10

break it down in a nutshell, you

17:12

just got to ask yourself, are you

17:14

comfortable with the world raising your child?

17:16

If you were to set your child

17:18

up into the wild in the wilderness,

17:20

which is the one, are you comfortable

17:22

with the sort of person that come

17:24

back as? Which speaks your question and

17:26

kind of speaks to my fear as

17:28

well. That's why I was saying that.

17:30

you know the job now is to

17:32

make him so confident and have a

17:34

high self-esteem and understand who he is

17:36

that he doesn't have to be taken

17:38

by those things but the truth of

17:40

the matter is at that age because

17:42

we must remember we pre-team now we're

17:44

going into jail yeah at that age

17:46

you are you you are questioning a

17:48

lot of things yes you know what

17:50

you were taught but there are other

17:52

lessons coming from the outside and they're

17:54

not always going to be good so

17:56

I don't I don't I'll probably butcher

17:59

some of it I'm bad with remembering

18:01

numbers, but there was a child psychologist

18:03

who once told me, for boys and

18:05

girls is slightly different, but I believe

18:07

from like zero to two or three,

18:09

it's all mom, it's just all mom,

18:11

right? And then I think from like

18:13

three to like seven, ten, and it

18:15

changes for boys and girls, it's mom

18:17

and dad in terms of like just

18:19

like parental household vibe. But then to

18:21

your point, they say for boys specifically,

18:23

once they hit like 10, 11, 12,

18:25

somewhere there. It's all about uncle as they

18:28

call it. It's all about other men or

18:30

male figures outside the household. Could be a

18:32

coach. Yeah, yeah. Could be a head boy.

18:34

Yeah. Just like they're the ones who now...

18:36

The captain of the football team. Yeah,

18:38

exactly, exactly. The numbers are actually zero

18:40

to seven is mom. Seven to 14

18:43

is dad or uncle. And then 14

18:45

to 21 is external. But who's external?

18:47

You gave us such specific ones for

18:49

the first two. No, but you must

18:51

remember that. Because kids are

18:53

growing up at a rapid pace as well.

18:55

Yeah, for me, and this is not psych,

18:58

this is not scientific, whatever. I just

19:00

think that at 10 now, we are

19:02

already, we are already extended. Yeah,

19:04

that's possible. Because also, he is going

19:06

out a lot more than a normal

19:08

child would have gone out as a 10 year

19:10

old 20, 30 years ago. Is there part

19:12

of you that wonders if your mom Tai

19:14

Chi has been enough? Yeah. There is,

19:16

the fact that he questions it,

19:18

because you must remember, but some

19:20

people just will go along with

19:22

it immediately. And let's do this,

19:24

we go, I can see the

19:26

thought process in Alak's mind when

19:28

he goes, and then like, you

19:30

know, I can see it, I

19:32

can see it, I can see

19:34

it, but also, you know, I've

19:36

been very carefully in, because I

19:38

don't want my child to be scared

19:40

of you at all, I don't want

19:42

that, I want. Oh wow,

19:44

yes Kerry, I'm

19:47

so glad that

19:49

interchangeable. Yes, it's

19:51

very funny. You're such

19:54

a mom, you know,

19:56

it's just such a

19:59

funny... line. I don't want

20:01

my child to be scared of me but

20:03

I do want him to to know that this

20:05

is the line and this is the line right

20:07

and to respect and you know

20:09

to respect me and just to respect

20:11

other people and also to respect somebody's

20:14

decision that they're not going to go

20:16

like you know what I respect that

20:18

you want to do this but I

20:20

am not going to do that and

20:23

that's frankly really all I want. So now

20:25

did you explain to Alakeh who call

20:27

this anonymous kid X? why ex's behavior

20:29

is not acceptable in this household? Yes.

20:32

Did he pick it up though? Yes

20:34

he did. Oh so he saw this

20:36

happening. Yes and as we were walking

20:38

back to our room he was walking

20:40

so far ahead because he knew he

20:43

knew that we wanted to have you

20:45

know the chat with him but then I

20:47

did the most gangster thing right? I

20:49

didn't say anything. Because I could see

20:51

he was like, it was chewing him, I

20:53

didn't say anything. And I just asked and

20:55

I said, your guy's behavior at the restaurant

20:57

was really not what we like about you

20:59

and what we've taught you. He's like, no

21:02

I understand. And then he quickly named

21:04

exactly what he done, what they said. This

21:06

is child X. No, this is I like. Oh, this

21:08

is I like you. Yeah. And you quickly like. But

21:10

then, because we're asking him, because there were a

21:12

point where they weren't within us seeing what they

21:14

were doing, but then they came back and they

21:17

just like dishelled and wet, like they were playing

21:19

with water, some way type of thing. Yeah, boy.

21:21

So he explains what happened. I'm not buying

21:23

the story, but explains what happened to

21:25

my partner, my partner's buying this.

21:28

I don't know if he was

21:30

buying it, whatever. Guy to Guy

21:32

as well, they had like a

21:34

little man-on-on man, man-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Because I

21:36

want him to tell me the story again

21:38

as he's just woken up. Go into

21:40

his room. Go into his room. And

21:42

I just... This is on the holiday,

21:44

bro. Put the... Put the... Put the

21:47

lights on everything. The lights on even! No,

21:49

but he doesn't wake up because the lights

21:51

are on, but I just want that when

21:53

I do wake him up. The lights are

21:55

on. Yeah, the lights are on so I

21:57

can see his immediate reaction. I asked him.

22:00

Just give me that story again, run it

22:02

by me again, because I didn't quite catch

22:04

it. I just want to rewind to the

22:06

point when you said I don't want my

22:08

son to be scared of him. Bro, we

22:10

had a resort. We had a resort. And

22:12

this drill sergeant is telling him on the

22:14

lights of three. To interrogate you. Bro. To

22:16

interrogate you. So John the lights. And then

22:18

I get into bed with him and then

22:21

I nudge him. I'm like, hey Papa, Papa,

22:23

I'm like, oh. No, no, no. Just quickly.

22:25

I didn't quite hear that story. Wow, I

22:27

didn't. Wow. Run it by me again. What

22:29

about? And then he ran, he said it

22:31

and I was comfortable with the answer. And

22:33

then I was like, but you do understand

22:35

that this is not behavior, that we are

22:37

accustomed. He's like, no, I get it. And

22:39

I know that it was wrong. And this

22:42

is why I was apologizing and I'm like,

22:44

okay, cool. I just wanted to know that

22:46

the story was the story and there wasn't

22:48

anything else that I need to address that

22:50

I need to address that I need to

22:52

address that I need to address. kids don't

22:54

come from the same backgrounds and from the

22:56

same homes. Yes, in other houses they leave

22:58

the lights off and they let you sleep

23:00

until the morning. That's how other houses do

23:03

it. But in this house, wow, you know,

23:05

so yeah, but also when I did, but

23:07

also, yeah, you know, but also when I

23:09

did that, because then I got back and

23:11

then my partner's like, like, everything fine, I'm

23:13

like, yeah, it's fine. And then when I

23:15

woke up in the morning and I told

23:17

you, I told you, I told you, a

23:19

10 year old before, I told you, I

23:21

told you, I told you, I told you,

23:24

I told you, So I'm also winging it

23:26

type of thing. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I'm

23:28

also winging it much like he's never been

23:30

a 10 year old before and all these

23:32

emotions and everything that's going on with him.

23:34

So we're just going to have to figure

23:36

each other out. And I have to like

23:38

negotiate with a 10 year old terrorist essentially

23:40

and just hope that their logic coincides with

23:42

yours. You know, I don't know if I

23:45

ever told you the story. So Isaac my

23:47

youngest brother, right. Him and and the middle

23:49

brother was staying with me in LA and

23:51

they'd come to visit me and it was

23:53

this whole thing and we're there for like

23:55

Christmas and They now gotten to an age

23:57

where they're big enough that I have to

23:59

go But they're still young

24:01

enough that they do crazy shit, right? So one

24:03

day we're all having dinner together. We order food

24:05

and then we plate it. I was like, because

24:08

I want them to feel civilized. You know what

24:10

I mean? Because I was like, I'm also the

24:12

person who eats out the box. But I want,

24:14

let's do like a family thing. Let's take the

24:16

food out of the box and put it on

24:18

a plate like we cooked it. Cool. So we

24:20

all eat. We put things together. Everything is great.

24:22

We're done. And

24:25

when we're done, it's time to clean up. And

24:27

I say, guys, help me. Let's take everything

24:29

to the kitchen. And I take

24:31

like one bowl, one glass.

24:34

My brothers stack everything. They stack,

24:37

stack, stack, stack, stack everything. I'm

24:39

like, what are you guys doing? They're like, we're

24:41

taking it to the kitchen. I was like, guys, guys,

24:43

guys, take one thing at a time. Can come back.

24:45

My other brother's like, he's like, yeah, but I

24:47

can do this. I got this. I was like, yeah,

24:49

whoa, whoa, whoa. It's not about whether you've got this.

24:51

Take one thing at a time. You're stacking like everything.

24:55

You know I mean? He's like, yeah, but I'll

24:57

be fine. I was like, no, no, no, no. You think

24:59

you'll be fine until you're not fine. Please just take

25:01

one thing at a time. He's like, okay.

25:03

So I go to the kitchen with the one thing. And

25:05

now, you know, we're doing that thing where we're crossing. So

25:07

one person goes to the table, the other person goes to

25:09

the table. As I'm at the

25:11

table with the youngest, Isaac, we're chatting. I

25:14

hear a smash on the other side of the house. Glass

25:17

shattering. And

25:19

you know, you know what it's not even like, I'm like, oh,

25:21

is there a break in? I know exactly what glass that was. So

25:24

go to the kitchen. I'm like, yo, bro, what

25:26

happened? Oh, yeah, the glass dropped. I'm like,

25:28

the glass didn't just drop. The glass dropped because you took

25:30

more things than I told you to. And then he's like,

25:32

oh, yeah, my bad. Then I'm like, no, not your bad.

25:34

Not your bad. I told you the thing. So now we're

25:36

having this like, you know, and he's not even fighting. He's

25:38

being like very polite and everything. And

25:40

so now the youngest is like running with the

25:42

stuff. So he's doing one and one, but

25:45

he's sprinting back and forth. So I'm

25:47

like, okay, no running. So many

25:49

rules, Trevor. This is what he says. He's like, jeez,

25:51

bro. He's like, so many rules. I'm like, yes,

25:53

these are the rules for how you make sure that

25:55

the stuff in your kitchen stays around. Right?

25:58

And also you don't hurt yourself. You see?

26:00

So he's running, guys, at some point I go,

26:02

yo, I said walk slowly, take the things one by

26:04

one. He's like, yeah, but I run all the time,

26:06

I'll be good. I was like, yo, just take the

26:08

things wrong. He's like, but why do I have to

26:11

do it, Joe? And I'll never forget this in that

26:13

moment. And I was like, why do I have to do

26:15

it, Joe? And I'll never forget this in that

26:17

moment. And I was like, why do you have

26:19

to have to, and I have to, and I

26:21

have, and I have, and I have, I have,

26:24

I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've,

26:26

I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've,

26:28

I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've,

26:30

and the most emotionally intelligent. He sat with it,

26:33

he did what I said, and he came

26:35

back, maybe like 10 minutes later.

26:37

You know, now there's like a weird

26:39

feeling in the house, but he came back

26:41

to me and he said, hey Trev, he

26:43

said, I just wanted to apologize

26:46

for what happened. I didn't mean

26:48

to offend you. I was like, yeah, I

26:50

get it, I'm sorry too, you know. And

26:52

he says, but here's the thing, he's like,

26:54

the reason I keep asking I keep asking

26:57

you why when you, when you, when you,

26:59

He's like, it's because I don't

27:01

understand why you're doing things the

27:03

way you do them. So if I

27:05

just do them, the way you do

27:07

them, I never really believe in it.

27:10

I'm just doing it because I've learned

27:12

it as a rote's identity. He's like,

27:14

but if I actually learn why you

27:16

do it the way you do it

27:18

the way you do it the way

27:20

you do it the way you do

27:22

it, then maybe I can adopt it

27:24

the way you do it the way

27:26

you do. Then maybe I can understand.

27:28

So, you know what it made me realize

27:30

is like, I realize that

27:32

every parent and every adult

27:35

figure in a child's life will

27:37

have that frustration. You're bound

27:39

to be frustrated because you

27:42

are proposing every idea

27:44

through the lens of logic

27:47

and experience. But your kids,

27:49

rightfully I think in many

27:51

ways, are also here to test

27:53

what those boundaries are. If every child,

27:55

think of us, think of us, the three of

27:57

us sitting here and everyone who's listening. If

27:59

you did... everything the way your parents

28:01

did it. Half the time you wouldn't

28:03

be where you are. You wouldn't have

28:06

discovered a new way to work, a

28:08

new type of job, a new career,

28:10

a new country, a new language, a

28:12

new sport, a new religion, a new

28:14

style of dress. Yeah, like you literally

28:16

have to break what they've taught you

28:18

to make something new. And the difficulty

28:20

as you say is we're all winging

28:22

it. We don't know what will or

28:24

won't work. It's just in these moments

28:26

where you go. Look when we say

28:28

get out of the pool get out

28:30

of the pool, but it's it's it's

28:33

a tough one because it's like do

28:35

you have a Because I've never had

28:37

a friend who's a mom do you

28:39

get what I'm saying like a friend

28:41

friend? No, what I'm saying is I've

28:43

never been in the position where I

28:45

can say this to you and ask

28:47

you honestly like Do you have a,

28:49

it's not like you can have a

28:51

fixed number, but do you have a

28:53

number of how much you're willing to

28:55

tolerate his boundary pushing because you think

28:57

it might be what creates something bigger

29:00

and more beautiful than you've ever considered?

29:02

Definitely, but the thing that we parents

29:04

are doing now is... We're very willing

29:06

to question the school that he's at

29:08

because there's too much writing and the

29:10

kids aren't writing anymore. Let's take him

29:12

to a school that just does robotics

29:14

and everything is going to meterize. It's

29:16

all sporting, right? Oh my child is

29:18

so good at this. Maybe I should

29:20

take him out of the school because

29:22

he's going to play for the springboard.

29:24

So he's going to play for the

29:27

proteas and all of that. as parents

29:29

we're very much holding on to you

29:31

know what you believe at that moment

29:33

in time it's very difficult and I

29:35

tried very hard with with my son

29:37

where I'm like okay level with me

29:39

let's talk to me you know explain

29:41

to me what was your thinking when

29:43

you were doing that yeah right so

29:45

that I can understand because like you

29:47

said I'm 40 and he's 10 and

29:49

we really we different times you know

29:51

different times different ways of parenting as

29:54

well and I didn't have that with

29:56

my mom or my dad it was

29:58

what they say sure you know that's

30:00

the rule that was the rule it's

30:02

also because it's like I'm paying for

30:04

the house I'm paying for this no no no no so you know

30:06

as long as you live under this household under this roof you are going to

30:08

you know it's up a type of thing and I don't want that with the

30:10

house you know simple things as well like people ask me why do you knock

30:12

when you go into your son's room you're your son's room you know it's your

30:14

house you know it's but it's but it's but it's but it's but it's but

30:16

it's his but it's his room I'm like yes but it's but it's but it's

30:19

his room I'm like yes but it's his room I'm like yes but it's his

30:21

room I'm like yes but it's his but it's his room you know but it's

30:23

his room you know but it's his room you know but it's his room

30:25

you know but it's his but you didn't that was

30:27

a he was a surprise and also that's

30:29

a hotel that's okay nice nice

30:31

nice you know in law enforcement

30:33

finds all these loopholes oh we

30:36

didn't need a search warrant because

30:38

it wasn't your home you know

30:40

what a thing was sanctioned was

30:42

sanctioned by the Minister of Tourism

30:44

right yeah you can keep the

30:46

city so like why do you knock

30:48

and I'm like because I want him

30:51

to knock when he's coming into my

30:53

room Yeah, yeah, you want to you want to

30:55

model the behavior. Yeah, and here's the thing

30:57

is that I want to show you that

31:00

I respect your privacy Because everybody else in

31:02

the world must also respect your privacy Oh,

31:04

damn. Because if I how can I say

31:06

I'm allowed to not to respect your privacy,

31:09

but everybody else must respect your privacy type

31:11

of thing. Okay. Yeah, I basically treat him

31:13

the way I want the world

31:16

to treat him so that he

31:18

can know. He's like, no, back

31:20

at home, this is how I'm

31:23

treated. And you're not treating me

31:25

the way that I'm treated at

31:27

home, where I'm loved. So this

31:30

is not going to fly.

31:32

And actually, that's all you

31:34

want your kids to be

31:36

about. We're going to

31:39

continue this conversation

31:41

right after this short break.

31:43

Not what I'm saying as a

31:45

kid, like did you have, did you

31:47

have a friend where they were

31:49

like your bad inf, because I was

31:52

the bad influence. In many ways,

31:54

yes, I will say, but I

31:56

also think I had many friends,

31:58

I think we were... renegades together

32:01

to be honest. Not in my formative

32:03

years, no. No, you didn't. Wow. Because

32:05

majority of the people that were around

32:07

me were handpicked by my parents. Oh,

32:09

come back to the cousins. Exactly. Even

32:11

my friends, it was really because my

32:13

parents are friends with these people and

32:16

then they'd be like, we'd go into

32:18

some of those house and then, hey,

32:20

do we saw my friend? Like, it's

32:22

not like I sought out doing me

32:24

since to be my friend. It didn't

32:26

work like that. It didn't work like

32:29

that. I think all you can do,

32:31

look at it like coding. You just

32:33

introduce the fundamentals, right? To your child.

32:35

And then tell him. To my computer

32:37

coding. Yes. Okay. But even with human

32:39

beings? Yeah. Because essentially there's a system

32:42

anyway. Because we robots. Because we're AI.

32:44

Aren't we all? Aren't we all? So

32:46

you did use these fundamentals. I'll agree

32:48

with you. Sorry. This program is tripping.

32:50

Once you've got the fundamentals in place

32:52

and they understand them and obviously you

32:55

guys are in agreement or the fundamentals

32:57

are, then you can go to like

32:59

intermediate programming and tell them, okay, well,

33:01

now with these fundamentals that you fully

33:03

understand, what do you think the right

33:05

thing to do in this situation is?

33:08

And then he will tell you? And

33:10

then you go, well, actually, that is

33:12

the wrong thing to do, Alakka, because

33:14

if you do that, for example, Isaac,

33:16

I know you used to running. but

33:18

there's a possibility you may sleep and

33:20

you can get a glass and you

33:23

will get impaled by this class. That's

33:25

why it's rather safer for you to

33:27

just walk, right? By running, yeah, you

33:29

save a little bit of time, but

33:31

we in no rush. Then it's like,

33:33

okay, cool. You very logical. But that's

33:36

how life is. What else? You sound

33:38

like you've never been a child. No,

33:40

but listen to me. Guys, I knew...

33:42

Let me tell you something. Yeah, when

33:44

I was opening... the TV in the

33:46

living room. Yes. And opening it like,

33:49

yeah, when I was unscrew the whole

33:51

thing. Okay. Logically, I knew everything. I

33:53

unscrew the TV too, but I had

33:55

logic for it. Okay. I wanted to

33:57

see how the TV works. Oh, same

33:59

with. And as a result, I was

34:02

able to fix things at home. I

34:04

was a guy, like dude, maybe by

34:06

like eight, I was a handyman

34:08

at home. And my dad understood,

34:10

I couldn't have been the handyman

34:13

unless I broke my toy. But

34:15

I'll tell you what, when things

34:17

were wrong, and I fixed it

34:19

without him paying a sense, boy

34:22

was he glad I broke that

34:24

toy? You see? So that's actually

34:26

idiot. You see what you see?

34:28

Now here's a thing. I'm told I

34:30

was a highly inclusive child. I guess I

34:32

still am, even as an adult, right? And

34:35

the thing with questions is, you're just

34:37

gathering data points. That's all you do.

34:39

You're gathering data points. And you're going

34:41

to later use those data points as

34:43

you collected and go, oh, okay. Well,

34:45

when I asked Auntie Annella this, she

34:47

told me this is a net. So

34:50

maybe I should go this way. There's

34:52

a lot of things. I never got

34:54

to experience and still have no inkling.

34:56

I don't even want to experience them.

34:58

But I've learned major lessons from other

35:00

people and their experience of those

35:02

things. So when you now withhold those answers

35:05

and you just... You nip it in the butt

35:07

by saying yes, because I said so. You

35:09

are starving Isaac of the data points he

35:11

needs. Not for him to be able to

35:13

come up with the decision, which will then

35:15

obviously make sense to him. Yeah, the wrong

35:17

or the right. All right, well if

35:19

you need you know outside models real

35:21

role models you let us know No,

35:23

no, I'm covered you must you must let

35:26

us know I mean, but me now I'm I'm

35:28

Probably gonna say even at

35:30

this age. I will bring a

35:32

little bit of bad influence, but

35:34

always respectful One thing my

35:36

teachers always said Trevor's very

35:39

troublesome. He's very disruptive in

35:41

class, but very respectful and

35:44

oftentimes does not apply

35:46

himself, but very respectful. There

35:48

was no disrespect in what I

35:50

was doing. Do you know what I mean?

35:52

Yes ma'am. No ma'am. Yes ma'am. I was

35:55

the one who put the firecracker in

35:57

the toilet ma'am. Yes ma'am. That is

35:59

correct ma'am. Why Trevor? Why? Because we

36:01

wanted to see what happens. The

36:03

thing about being a child being

36:05

inquisitive as well is that it

36:07

could be on the bad side

36:09

of things. Yes. That's what I

36:11

see a worry as well. Yeah.

36:13

Because people always treat like being

36:15

inquisitive, like, oh, such a wonderful

36:17

thing. It's a great trade. He's

36:19

so inquisitive. But if it's inquisitive

36:21

as to what's going to happen

36:23

if at age nine he takes

36:25

the car. Yes. Right. Right. Our

36:27

driveway was like a bit of

36:29

an incline. So when I was

36:31

leaving, I would have been fine.

36:33

But then when I was driving

36:35

back, the car obviously would have

36:37

had like hummed a little bit.

36:39

And then I thought, what if

36:41

my dad thinks the car's getting

36:43

stolen and then he shoots me?

36:45

Then I was like, I would

36:47

rather not take this car. The

36:49

sentence would end like that. Me

36:51

too. I didn't think the sentence

36:53

would end like that. Wow. I

36:55

thought grounded, like grounded or get

36:57

a... I know, I thought, I

36:59

thought, you know, what's the worst

37:01

thing it could happen? You could

37:03

think the car was getting stolen

37:05

and then shoot me. Okay, but

37:07

now we mustn't stick on this

37:09

one, because everybody's got to worry.

37:11

Now we're going to spend the

37:13

next hour discussing only my worries.

37:15

But our worries all the same.

37:17

This is interesting. Okay, so, okay,

37:19

so, okay, then let's, let's. But

37:21

wait, she raised a very good

37:23

point. We just glossed over it.

37:25

It actually is the answer to

37:27

everything. Mm-hmm. And because if... If,

37:30

for example... I don't think it

37:32

is, but finish what you say.

37:34

Okay, it's onto the most things.

37:36

No, no, but keep going. If

37:38

his self-confidence is strong enough, right?

37:40

Peer pressure will never be an

37:42

issue. And we know, for example,

37:44

that Allah is very smart already.

37:46

He's super smart. So he knows

37:48

what right and wrong is. What

37:50

usually swathes people from wrong is

37:52

the external influence. If he's strong

37:54

enough and believes in himself, he

37:56

can say, hey, hey, I hear

37:58

what you say how we roll.

38:00

So I hear what you're saying.

38:02

One caveat I'd like to throw

38:04

into this and one counter argument

38:06

is that he'll never go wrong, but he's

38:08

unlikely to go as wrong as other people

38:10

who are just amoebas and they go with

38:12

the flow. A lot of people end

38:15

up in trouble. They're like, yo dude,

38:17

I don't even want to be here. I

38:19

told you guys, just not go there. Now

38:21

you're sharing a cell. You see? So I hear

38:23

what you're saying. One caveat I'd

38:26

like to throw into this and

38:28

one counter argument is, I think we

38:30

have a little less social cohesion. We

38:32

should never take for granted how powerful peer

38:34

pressure is in society. So when you're on

38:36

the road, and you see that you could

38:38

drive in the emergency lane and just

38:41

get ahead of everyone, peer pressure is

38:43

the only thing keeping you back. Yeah, you might

38:45

be like, oh, the police, no, no, no,

38:47

but beyond that, there's an element of knowing

38:49

that every other road user is in some

38:51

way shape or form going to be against you, and

38:53

you're like. I'm not going to do it. When you're

38:55

standing in a line at an airport or anywhere else

38:58

and you see that you could cut and you could

39:00

get ahead. Peer pressure is the only thing like stopping

39:02

you from doing. You're not going to get arrested.

39:04

Do you get what I'm saying? I think there's

39:06

a there's a weird balance and we don't know what

39:08

the knobs perfectly are. But the world knows. But

39:10

the way you look... It's interesting that you say

39:13

that. No, can I say... We don't know what

39:15

the balances. But the balance is. But the balance

39:17

is. But the balance is. But the world always

39:19

fine. But the world always fine. But the world

39:21

always fine. I don't believe we know and I

39:23

don't think there is a right because I think

39:25

every piece needs to exist. So like

39:28

on the one hand you need like

39:30

a renegade to be like a Steve

39:32

Jobs let's say. Where he goes no

39:34

we're gonna do this and people like

39:36

you can't do it and he's like

39:38

we're gonna do it and he's like

39:40

we're gonna do it and he's like

39:42

we're gonna do it and he's like

39:44

we're gonna do it and he's like

39:46

we're gonna do it and he's like.

39:48

So here's the thing. So here's the

39:50

thing. All I'm saying is I believe

39:52

that there isn't one fixed way or

39:55

not way. I think a system will

39:57

always like find entropy. It will always

39:59

find the place. where it exists for

40:01

the best of what it is trying

40:03

to do. But I think you can

40:05

create a child, or you think you

40:07

can try your best to create a

40:10

child, who does not care about what

40:12

anyone else says. And I think those

40:14

types of people are assholes in the

40:16

world as well, because they don't care

40:18

about what anyone else says. And then

40:21

there are some people who care too

40:23

much about what everyone else says, and

40:25

then they are at the whims of

40:27

the whims of the crowd. So Joe

40:30

Biden's got a line. right Joe Biden

40:32

Joe Biden a rapper I was like

40:34

wow this guy's about a quote Joe

40:36

Biden yeah I was like damn I

40:38

don't think I've ever heard anyone quote

40:41

Joe Biden this is a rap line

40:43

also wrong before he did podcast and

40:45

he speaks about Mama raised me proper

40:47

the streets just molded me the streets

40:49

coded me made me a better pedigree

40:52

then he goes on to say things

40:54

are complicated like ever levies that it

40:56

be but that's besides the point basically

40:58

when you go out into the world

41:01

the world will either affirm you or

41:03

it will challenge you. Cool, right? So,

41:05

with your fortitude, you'll go there and

41:07

the new old black... No, my friend,

41:09

that's not how this works. And very

41:12

quickly, if you're a smart person, you'll

41:14

then learn. Oh, damn, I'm wrong about

41:16

this. However, if you are correct about

41:18

your ways, the world will affirm you.

41:20

And then you'll see it with, okay,

41:23

this actually works. And that's how people

41:25

end up rising to a certain point.

41:27

So, so, it's actually funny, you say

41:29

that. Because I think that's a perfect

41:32

segue to my worry. I agree that

41:34

the world will affirm you or challenge

41:36

you, right? But I don't think that

41:38

that is based in absolute truths. So

41:40

sometimes you will be affirmed or challenged

41:43

based on the circumstance of the situation.

41:45

True. Or what people can benefit from

41:47

affirming your challenge? Exactly, exactly. So now

41:49

let's go to my worry. The reason

41:52

I say I think the global slash

41:54

liberal slash whatever experiment has failed is

41:56

because there was a time when many

41:58

politicians run. world started to believe and

42:00

I'm sure there was another time when

42:03

this happened with trading in general but

42:05

they said you know what we could be connecting the

42:07

world in interesting in different ways

42:09

you know you could you could make something in China

42:11

or you could make it in any country where

42:13

it's developing really and that means the

42:15

country where they're selling it to they

42:17

can focus on different types of labour

42:20

they can be more specialized they can

42:22

work in offices they can do this

42:24

so they'll actually be selling a different

42:26

product to the world, their product might

42:28

be a service, it might be something

42:30

digital, and then the people who are

42:32

using that, they might buy something else

42:34

and they might, but we're all connected

42:36

and then... It's going to be a

42:39

chain. Yeah, yeah. And we're all, and

42:41

it's, it's the circle of life, you know

42:43

what I mean? It's the circle of

42:45

life, you know what I mean? It's

42:47

like this beautiful world where money is

42:49

to the money damned up in a

42:51

way that no one really predicted. So

42:53

the money didn't move around the world. It

42:55

didn't stay in Bangladesh and Vietnam

42:58

and all these places where the

43:00

workers are making it. It very

43:02

quickly left those places and went

43:04

into bank accounts in certain parts

43:06

of the world, right? The people working even

43:08

at these companies in those parts of

43:10

the world, it doesn't matter how

43:13

big these corporations are. But one

43:15

of the things I find particularly

43:17

interesting is how like we've accepted

43:19

this as normal and maybe we

43:21

won for a while where companies.

43:23

can hire people to help them

43:25

make profits. Once they've achieved that

43:27

profit, they can fire all of

43:30

those people to help them make more

43:32

profits. So this is the second part

43:34

of it, why I think it's failing.

43:36

I think we were never fully

43:38

prepared to communicate with everyone

43:40

everywhere all the time without

43:43

understanding the nuances and the

43:45

complexities that come

43:47

with everybody's understanding of the

43:49

world. in the you know in the same way

43:51

that we're worried about like what we say to

43:53

aliens when they arrive not even when they

43:56

arrive you've seen we've sent we've sent

43:58

like things to get signals like Yeah,

44:00

we've sent capsules and then they'll choose.

44:02

They go, we've put some Mozart, some

44:04

Beethoven, we've sent, but there's also like

44:07

crazy shit we've sent, we've sent like

44:09

a random, like rock and roll song,

44:11

that could sound like a war anthem,

44:13

I don't know. Or maybe Mozart sounds

44:16

like war to an alien, I don't

44:18

know, right? You really don't know. You

44:20

really say we've sent these cases, what

44:23

we think. encapsulates the human race is

44:25

what we've done. Oh, that is a

44:27

very, very risky thing. Exactly. Because what

44:29

does encapsulate the human race? That's exactly

44:32

my point. And so- Maybe each country

44:34

should send something. Even then, and so

44:36

now I'm saying social media as a

44:39

whole, the whole connected idea of it,

44:41

forget like actual social media. I just

44:43

don't think we ever prepared for it.

44:45

We never prepared for a message to

44:48

cross borders and cultures in the way

44:50

that it does. It may connect us

44:52

in moments, but I think it's ripping

44:54

us apart at the seams in more

44:57

places than we ever thought. And so

44:59

I think that's why I think the

45:01

whole thing is falling apart. I think

45:04

in South Africa, where we are at

45:06

right now, I think we're going to

45:08

see only more xenophobia, we're going to

45:10

see more people not wanting immigrants to

45:13

come into the country, and in many

45:15

people's defense, by the way, not just

45:17

in South Africa, in the US, in

45:20

Europe, etc. If we use the binary,

45:22

we can be very quick to say...

45:24

these people are hateful. It's very easy

45:26

to do that, right? But the underlying

45:29

issue is true in many places. But

45:31

I think you've got a global view

45:33

because you are a global person, right?

45:36

We can scale this down and realize

45:38

that it's always been like that. It's

45:40

just that now we are aware that

45:42

it's happening everywhere else as well. Let

45:45

me take it back to South Africa.

45:47

A person who was raised in the

45:49

rural areas. They are aliens to each

45:52

other. Okay, so the hood versus the

45:54

village, essentially. Versus the village, there we

45:56

go. But then even in America, somebody

45:58

was raised. in the southern, I'm a

46:01

southern bell, do you know what I'm

46:03

saying, as opposed to somebody who was

46:05

raised in New York, those people are

46:07

also quite alien to each other, right?

46:10

And that's, now that is a country.

46:12

I just feel that because you've been

46:14

everywhere in the world, it is a lot

46:16

more heightened for you that you think

46:19

that. No, no, no, but this is

46:21

what I mean. I mean, that the

46:23

experiment was, it felt like it was

46:25

working for a moment. So here's

46:27

a thing. But the first one, which is

46:29

economics, that makes sense. And even

46:31

if you look at any economic

46:33

textbook, it really just, it dictates

46:36

that things will be that way. Because

46:38

capital, by its very nature,

46:40

is monopolistic. Right? There are four factors

46:42

of production, we are told.

46:44

We're told it's capital, labor,

46:47

entrepreneurship, and then I suppose land. But

46:49

really, when you think about it, there's

46:51

only one factor of production. It's

46:54

capital. Because it's capital, you can

46:56

buy the other three. That's why

46:58

the effect has been that money

47:00

has always pulled back to money.

47:02

Yes. Because once you've made the

47:04

money you realize, okay, I no longer

47:06

need the labour now, I can build

47:08

AI and that will substitute the

47:11

need for labour. Right? Okay,

47:13

I no longer need entrepreneurship,

47:15

I can go to India and hire CEO.

47:17

Okay, I no longer need, for

47:19

example, land, right? These are all

47:22

the things. Capital will always supersede

47:24

everything in a capitalistic. I want

47:26

to live in a land realistic

47:28

country. No, but so I agree

47:30

with you. And what I'm saying

47:32

though is this was an experiment.

47:34

Remember we're always conducting an experiment.

47:37

Like you said with your son, you're winging

47:39

it. We're also winging it. I think this

47:41

is something we should always acknowledge as people

47:43

and I think not enough politicians do and

47:45

not enough leaders do. They make it seem

47:47

like we know. So I've seen people who

47:49

talk about like socialism, they know, people talk

47:51

about communism, they know, people talk about capitalism,

47:53

they know. But I'm like, guys, you don't

47:55

know, we're all winging it with as much

47:57

information as we have, we're gathering data points

47:59

as you say. Right? So there was no

48:01

communism until there was. There was

48:03

no socialism until there was. There

48:06

was no capitalism until there was.

48:08

Right? What I'm saying is this experiment

48:10

that we're conducting now, I worry

48:12

that it's failing. But I worry that

48:15

it's failing because the reason I worry

48:17

about it failing is because of the

48:19

ramifications on the other side. So... But

48:21

that's our revolution's come. This is

48:24

my point. That's the reset. Everything

48:26

has a reset. You see this

48:28

is my point. I don't like

48:30

your tone when you say these things

48:32

see way you say very No,

48:34

no, no, no, but he says it

48:36

in a very your tone is positive

48:39

But the message you're giving is

48:41

like you're like yes. Well, that's a

48:43

revolution because that's what happens. That's

48:45

a reason everyone's gonna die. Yes, but

48:47

your tone you must deliver in

48:50

like well. You are worried that

48:52

you're living on the cusp Yes,

48:54

completely No, I don't want to be here for

48:56

it. Do you want to be here for

48:58

revolution? I mean, I think in many parts

49:01

we you want to be here for the

49:03

revolution. I don't want to be a

49:05

revolution. Let me tell you something about

49:07

revolution. It's disruptive. And

49:09

nobody knows what comes out on

49:12

the other side. You think I have

49:14

power. A revolution completely disrupts power. You

49:16

think, oh, but I'm of the people.

49:19

Revolutions also squashed the people. Yeah. And

49:21

the outcome of a revolution is right

49:23

in that. It's obviously. it depends

49:25

what sort of person you are

49:27

right it's better to be living in

49:29

very calm times and steady times yes

49:31

but you learn a lot if you're

49:33

living on the cusp because that's

49:36

a majority of change takes place I

49:38

mean this is true yeah but one of

49:40

you look at us we've gone we

49:42

literally went from unlocked digital

49:44

that alone will blow many people's

49:47

minds yes crazy the things that

49:49

we've seen we went from that

49:51

recorders to CDs to cassette tapes

49:53

to VHS to see you know, maybe I

49:55

think we've lived the revolutions. I think you

49:58

guys think I'm assuming like the violence. ones

50:00

you know no no no no

50:02

I just mean you mean you

50:04

mean a reset okay so you're

50:06

saying I'm talking about a reset

50:09

and not a revolution yes you're

50:11

gonna have to then give me

50:13

the difference between those a revolution

50:15

you'll know blood will be spilled

50:17

not necessarily blood was built but

50:20

you wouldn't be sitting at something

50:22

about covert as a revolution you'd

50:24

know for a fact then give

50:26

me an example of a revolution

50:28

the air of spring yes well

50:31

air spring somewhat but regimes change

50:33

but regimes change yes Not necessarily,

50:35

they can be peaceful. Like in

50:37

1994, so I'll ever get a

50:39

revolution, but a peaceful revolution. More

50:42

or less. No, okay. So this

50:44

is what I mean. I'll just

50:46

throw them out at you and

50:48

maybe you'll understand the picture that

50:50

I'm seeing. Let's say in America,

50:53

right? It was interesting to see

50:55

how even amongst themselves, the Trump

50:57

mega crowd. is experiencing

50:59

like a fraying connection between the people. Yeah.

51:01

In a microcosm, you look at the Trump

51:03

Party. I don't call it the Republican Party,

51:05

it's the Trump Party. You would think within

51:07

that world, everyone would just be like, yeah,

51:09

we know what we're doing, we're doing it,

51:11

right? Look at the thing that happened with

51:13

Elon Musk and the H1B1 visas. Elon Musk

51:15

is rolling with Donald Trump. They're like, yeah,

51:17

we know what we're doing. We're planning this

51:20

new world order. Elon's like, hey man, I

51:22

have a new best friend. I paid 250

51:24

million dollars for him. So I want to

51:26

hang out with him all the time. Trump

51:28

is like, Trump needs his mom to come

51:30

to me at 3 in the morning. Trump

51:32

is like, Trump needs his mom to come

51:34

to be 3 in the morning. Trump is

51:36

like, you're a bit of a loser. I

51:38

wanted your bit of a loser. Yeah, Trump

51:40

is like, he's like, he's like, he's like,

51:42

he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like,

51:44

he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like,

51:46

he's like, he's like, he's, he's, he's, he's,

51:48

he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's,

51:50

he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's Trump

51:52

was like, this guy's coup. I need this

51:54

guy's approval. Exactly. Because Trump knows coup. Say

51:56

what you want about him. Say what you

51:58

want to buy. Say what you want about

52:00

him. So when I look at the Elon

52:02

Musk thing, it's amazing to see how quickly

52:04

what I'm talking about is affecting everyone.

52:07

Because Elon Musk and his people go, all

52:09

right, now we know what we're doing. Trump

52:11

fans and supporters are like, actually no, like

52:13

Steve Bannon goes, no, no, no, no, hey,

52:15

I actually don't like this agenda. Why

52:17

are we hiring these people from India

52:20

and from these places to come and

52:22

work on these companies? Because we need

52:24

them, because we need them. We don't

52:26

need them. We need them because we

52:29

haven't created a world where Americans are

52:31

the ones that are needed. Then the

52:33

tech guys say, yes, but like Vivek

52:36

Ramswami and Elon Musk, they say, yeah,

52:38

but Americans are not trained enough

52:40

and they're not smart enough.

52:42

And these guys are like, oh,

52:44

you're saying Americans are stupid. Is

52:46

that what you're saying? They're like,

52:49

no. And the other guy's like,

52:51

yes, I am saying that. Then

52:53

he's like, why. hasn't been delivered,

52:55

right? Because white Americans were told,

52:57

stop your factory things. We got

52:59

this. Don't worry. So what's gonna happen

53:01

is you're gonna just move forward, right?

53:03

And your company, you're gonna wear a

53:05

suit and tie, and you're gonna have

53:07

a different job and you're gonna get

53:09

great money. Worked for a moment,

53:11

then companies, as you say, capital does

53:14

what capital does, companies are like, we

53:16

could actually make more money with less,

53:18

and why are we paying American workers

53:20

when we could be paying people from India?

53:22

or Bangladesh less and even if they

53:24

come into the country we can force them

53:26

to work a ton of hours because what

53:29

are they going to say no and they'll

53:31

be a lot more appreciative of the dollar

53:33

exactly because they have a visa exactly and

53:35

now even within that tiny world you see

53:38

the experiment failing and now there Steve Bannon

53:40

comes and says Elon Musk is a white

53:42

South African who is racist and born from apartheid

53:44

we cannot allow him into the White House now

53:46

people watching this are like wait Steve Bannon is

53:48

saying this guy's racist No one knows what to

53:50

do with it. No one knows what to do

53:52

with it. No one knows what. But that's just

53:54

one example. Then you look at South Africa and

53:57

how South Africans are now going like actually actually

53:59

no no no no. We're not trying to

54:01

help Africa, no, no, we're just trying

54:03

to do our own thing. Then you

54:05

look at Europe, Europe's like, no, no,

54:07

no, no, no, clothes, clothes here, Germany.

54:09

They're like, hey, man, this whole immigrant

54:12

thing, actually, no, no, no, no, no,

54:14

we're not, we're not, then you look

54:16

at like banking, you look at higher,

54:18

look at AI itself. We are on

54:20

a fast track to people turning things.

54:22

This is why it's so interesting because

54:25

all of it actually just boils down

54:27

to economics and living conditions. Everything you've

54:29

just highlighted is not a problem if

54:31

people are comfortable. Yeah, completely. If we're

54:33

all comfortable, I love AI. Because who

54:35

wants to work? Yes. Let AI work.

54:38

If you're all comfortable, and you're telling

54:40

me you're going to bring in some

54:42

Indian guy. Yeah, by what means, buddy?

54:44

Do the thing there. I'll suggest, yeah.

54:46

Now when we're starving, they're like, hey

54:48

man, these foreigners are taking our jobs.

54:50

That's the problem. That is the problem.

54:53

Whereas if we were comfortable, we'd be

54:55

like, hey buddy, hey, I got something

54:57

here for you. You want to do

54:59

this? Because I don't want to do

55:01

it. That's essentially the issue. And that's

55:03

what I'm saying has failed. I'm saying

55:06

the thing that was sold to people

55:08

was prosperity for all. That has not

55:10

happened, whether it's South Africa, whether it's

55:12

the United States, United States, with it's

55:14

part of Europe. Wait, you think it

55:16

can't happen? Never. Prosperity for all? It

55:19

can. No, it can. So what it

55:21

can. Because this is what I want

55:23

to say, that even when we are,

55:25

like you're saying, the Trump party, not

55:27

the Republicans, even when we're all for

55:29

one thing and we have one ideal,

55:32

we're still going to disagree within that,

55:34

right? But not fundamentally. I think so.

55:36

No, they argue, people are now disagreeing,

55:38

I hear you. Look at, look at

55:40

South Africa. Look at the ANC, where

55:42

we were all about one thing. Even

55:45

when we get along, guys, even in

55:47

a group of friends, you know that

55:49

WhatsApp group where there was nine of

55:51

you and the next thing in that

55:53

nine, six of you slipped to the

55:55

side. Do you know what I'm saying?

55:58

That is human nature. So Annell is

56:00

right. there will always be disagreements. What

56:02

I'm saying is, when things are

56:04

okay, the disagreements are inconsequential. Yes,

56:06

sir. So, they can never be prosperity

56:08

for all. Because in order for

56:10

people to prosper, there needs

56:12

to be productivity. And the

56:14

productivity needs to come from somewhere. Now,

56:17

what happens is, you do get certain

56:19

instances where there are more resources than

56:21

there are those that repeat the resources.

56:24

What it means is, the model seems

56:26

like it's working for a lot

56:28

longer. But it's really not. The

56:30

model is all is deteriorating.

56:33

That's just the nature

56:35

of the model. You

56:37

could be living in

56:39

the Garden of Eden,

56:41

but the more you

56:44

procreate, the more

56:46

you're going to run

56:48

out of food in

56:50

that garden. Don't go

56:52

anyway, because we got

56:54

more what now after

56:56

this. That's the first thing. And I

56:58

think a lot of it is created by

57:01

institutions and companies that need you

57:03

to consume. So for instance, a

57:05

simple example is your phone, right?

57:07

Everyone has the new iPhone until Apple

57:09

releases the next iPhone. It is literally,

57:12

even the day before launch, you have

57:14

the latest iPhone. And then one day later,

57:16

you now have an old iPhone. Right? Well,

57:18

no, sorry. You're right. The issue is not

57:21

scarcity. it's about the distribution of resources.

57:23

That's but that's why I'm that's

57:25

what the problem. What I'm saying

57:27

is I agree completely. I'm saying

57:29

we are and we have been and look

57:31

there may not be a perfect world for

57:34

this, but I think there's also a

57:36

lot of artificial scarcity and a lot

57:38

of artificial distribution that has now like

57:40

an old time. Yeah, I agree with

57:42

you. The perfect example is water. Guys,

57:44

I don't understand how we live in

57:46

a world where water is owned by

57:48

companies. And we are all going to

57:51

have to buy water from corporations, guys,

57:53

everywhere in the world. You are going to

57:55

read that about LA. There are a couple owns over

57:57

words in LA. It's a farming family. They own

57:59

like water. How do you hold water?

58:01

Who did you buy it from? But

58:03

that's my point. Who owned it before

58:06

you? But that's my point. Because the

58:08

water goes under my house as well.

58:10

How come I can't stop the water?

58:12

Do you see what I'm saying? So

58:15

now, Ciz, I get what you're saying

58:17

economically, but I'm saying that's why all

58:19

of these things, I worry that we

58:21

are going to hit too many at

58:24

the same time. but I think we

58:26

are on track unless there's some sort

58:28

of correction somewhere. We are only on

58:30

track for a like mask ending correction

58:33

type thing, revolution, whatever you want to

58:35

call it. I cannot see another way.

58:37

Well, luckily all of this has been

58:39

thought of. Even the thing you just

58:42

mentioned now about water going under your

58:44

house. Yes. So for example, the Romans,

58:46

because they came out with land ownership,

58:48

they kind of... They basically had a

58:51

definition of what land ownership is, right?

58:53

It will be against the square meters

58:55

or whatever the measurements will be. And

58:57

then it will be everything on and

59:00

above the ground belongs to you. Everything

59:02

below the ground that belongs to the

59:04

ground that belongs to the ground that

59:06

belongs to the state. Okay. As for

59:09

example, what our mining loads are based

59:11

on hands. Yeah. Right. So if the

59:13

water is flowing on top of your

59:15

ground, that's your water. But the underground

59:18

water is not yours. Yes, but the

59:20

problem is the state. Is obviously not

59:22

fair. But I hear you. Yes, and

59:24

what is a state? A state is

59:26

a collection of people. It's a fiction

59:29

that we've all agreed to. So now

59:31

the problem is, when the state's sell

59:33

it to private people, where do we

59:35

end up? In revolution. So, by the

59:38

way, Caesar is not helping me at

59:40

all, because he's affirming everything I'm saying.

59:42

Imagine if we were doing that with

59:44

you. Imagine we were supposed to happen

59:47

that. No, no, no, no. It's like

59:49

now as a second album. It was

59:51

written. It was written. Yes. Thank you

59:53

Joe Biden. But remember what my original

59:56

statement was. I'm worried that the experiment

59:58

is failing because remember what we're also

1:00:00

doing is... humans is we're constantly trying

1:00:02

to undermine the natural order

1:00:04

of things. We do it with

1:00:07

our health, right? So back in the

1:00:09

day, your shoulder, you would be gone.

1:00:11

Now you may not be gone. Right.

1:00:13

And I think this is

1:00:15

something that's important to understand

1:00:17

is that one of the

1:00:19

main things that makes humans

1:00:21

humans is that we've

1:00:24

challenged the very fundamental

1:00:26

order and nature of life

1:00:28

and the world. But we fight it.

1:00:30

So we go, actually, maybe you shouldn't

1:00:32

die of an infection. And then you

1:00:34

go, actually- Maybe you shouldn't die at

1:00:36

all. Remember the guy you interviewed them?

1:00:38

Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe you

1:00:40

shouldn't die at all, yeah. Right. So

1:00:42

the reason I say I'm sad and

1:00:45

I'm worried that the experiment is failing

1:00:47

is because it was an experiment. People

1:00:49

thought that if you put goods and

1:00:51

services or if you say that things

1:00:53

are going to be manufactured in poor

1:00:55

countries, it's going to bring them up. and

1:00:57

then that'll free up the developed countries

1:00:59

to do different types of jobs and

1:01:01

they'll bring them up and then they

1:01:03

will sell their ideas and it'll bring

1:01:06

them up and they'll this beautiful loop

1:01:08

this beautiful loop this beautiful loop this

1:01:10

beautiful loop and we will all raise

1:01:12

what is that rising tides raise all

1:01:14

boats that's what we thought what we thought what

1:01:16

we didn't know was some people have boats

1:01:18

that have water pumps and they're taking a

1:01:20

lot more water and the tides are not

1:01:23

rising everything so now that's what I was

1:01:25

saying is my worry And I

1:01:27

like the fact that there's no

1:01:29

solution. We just do a fun

1:01:31

about it. We're like, bye! Yeah,

1:01:33

your worries, niggles, bye! This guy.

1:01:35

And that's on you! Hmm. I

1:01:37

actually see a very hopeful future

1:01:39

for your story with your

1:01:41

son. Of course. That's what I

1:01:44

mean. So I go like, oh,

1:01:46

you just have a problem or

1:01:48

a worry about a potential problem,

1:01:50

but I feel like there's many

1:01:52

solves for the thing.

1:01:55

That's funny!

1:02:00

that's as a friend that's and

1:02:02

then my friend has said to

1:02:04

me no no don't worry all

1:02:06

your worries are correct and it's

1:02:08

gonna end that's what he just

1:02:10

did to me because you must

1:02:12

never be a doctor by the

1:02:14

way seizure you would he needs

1:02:16

to be a no no he

1:02:18

would be the person who just

1:02:20

walks in and says to you

1:02:22

you're out statistically speaking you're gonna

1:02:24

die anyway so I mean I

1:02:26

don't even know why you want to

1:02:28

do the surgery you want to

1:02:30

do the surgery save your money's

1:02:32

Just walk in so okay, let's

1:02:34

do Caesar's so your concern is

1:02:36

you worry that so Generally speaking

1:02:38

As you correctly points out the

1:02:40

world is continually deteriorating. Yeah And I

1:02:43

feel like, wait, wait, wait, wait,

1:02:45

I'm not saying continually, let me

1:02:47

be on record of saying that.

1:02:49

Well, I think, I think we're

1:02:51

in like cycles and I'm saying,

1:02:53

no, we are in cycles, but

1:02:55

obviously in the cycle, it's continuing to

1:02:57

be. Okay, okay, we haven't hit

1:02:59

drop out of me. Okay, great.

1:03:01

Only gonna stop the series, we're

1:03:03

gonna hit drop bottom, then we're

1:03:05

gonna need to rebuild. Okay, cool.

1:03:07

Now, I worry that personally I

1:03:09

had to navigate the world. I see

1:03:11

those tools becoming more and more

1:03:13

useless every day. Can you give

1:03:15

us an example of those tools?

1:03:17

I mean, just general things, like

1:03:19

for example, bullying, a very simple

1:03:21

example, right? There used to be a

1:03:24

safe haven for bullying. These days,

1:03:26

there isn't a bullying. Sorry, sorry,

1:03:28

I feel like I'm mishearing you.

1:03:30

Safe haven for people being bullied?

1:03:32

From being bullied, yes. Oh, okay.

1:03:34

I thought you were saying there

1:03:36

was a safe even for bullying. That's

1:03:38

funny! No really! You're also like

1:03:40

a weird thinker. You could be

1:03:42

the kind of person who says

1:03:44

that. Protect all bullies? Yeah, you

1:03:46

would like back in my idea?

1:03:48

Bullies could find a place... Dude!

1:03:50

You're the kind of person who could

1:03:53

say that. Look, bullies do pull

1:03:55

character. Okay, but I don't think

1:03:57

we really... Okay, okay, sorry. So

1:03:59

you're saying... You could get bullied.

1:04:01

So you could get bullied and

1:04:03

then at 2.30, the bell would

1:04:05

ring. You'd be like, phew. That's so

1:04:07

great. Mom, I'm going home. And then

1:04:09

you'd be in your mom's car and

1:04:11

then be like, mom, you never believe

1:04:13

it. These guys are going to beat

1:04:16

me up and then you pissed up

1:04:18

right in time and now the guys

1:04:20

are beating you up in your mom's

1:04:22

car. And your mom's like, why are

1:04:24

you in your screen? And they probably

1:04:27

you, you know. because we didn't prepare

1:04:29

for all this. Yeah, 100% 100%. And

1:04:31

when you're a kid, you really don't

1:04:33

have the broadened vision to know, it's

1:04:35

actually what I can do, just turn

1:04:37

off my phone. Yeah. I think as

1:04:40

adults, we also don't necessarily have that.

1:04:42

It took me, I'm trying to

1:04:44

think of when this changed, maybe

1:04:46

somewhere pandemic-ish, somewhere. It took me

1:04:48

a long time to realize. If I don't

1:04:50

know it, it's, if I don't

1:04:53

even acknowledge, it's not even

1:04:55

happening. I know it sounds

1:04:57

like a weird thing, people

1:04:59

like, no, but people are

1:05:01

saying things about me online

1:05:03

and I'm like, yeah, it's

1:05:06

not really happening. Unless, you

1:05:08

know, because I think... Could you

1:05:10

feel like our youth kind of

1:05:12

primed us for this though? In

1:05:14

what way? Like our youth in

1:05:17

showbiz. That's why when I see... the

1:05:19

kids that grew up now in the social media

1:05:21

age. Yeah, right? And I see how seriously they

1:05:23

take social media. And how they crumble when someone

1:05:25

does say something. I can understand it because

1:05:27

for them, they were made by social media.

1:05:29

If you were made by social media, you

1:05:31

feel like you can be destroyed by social

1:05:33

media. Okay, to channel my very wise younger

1:05:36

brother. he would argue that we and the

1:05:38

youngest of our generation is experiencing

1:05:40

that. He says they're not. He's

1:05:42

like, you guys, like, Bain, he's

1:05:44

almost like, oh, you merely dropped

1:05:46

on social media. I was forged

1:05:48

in social media. Like, he goes,

1:05:50

no, no, no, no. You and

1:05:52

your youngest think that. He

1:05:54

says, our generation, we're so robust, because

1:05:57

we were built by that, he's like,

1:05:59

we don't. We actually don't care.

1:06:01

He says we don't really care

1:06:03

about the thing and we don't.

1:06:05

He even showed me like aesthetically.

1:06:07

No, but I'm saying he showed

1:06:09

me like aesthetically. Go look at

1:06:11

like Gen Z and lower, look

1:06:13

at their Instagram, their TikTok. It's

1:06:15

not aesthetic like millennials and above.

1:06:17

They're not trying to show you

1:06:19

a perfect picture of avocado toast.

1:06:21

No, they just want to show

1:06:24

you a vibe. They might even

1:06:26

show you the crumbs. That's their

1:06:28

picture. And his argument is that

1:06:30

we think of it. something that

1:06:32

is infinitely harder to tackle, but

1:06:34

he's like, it is only the

1:06:36

reality that they have, right? So

1:06:38

he goes, I think your situation

1:06:40

was worse. He's like, because we

1:06:42

entered striving for perfection because we

1:06:44

didn't know how this thing works.

1:06:46

No, but not even, like he

1:06:48

argues, he goes, yeah, we get

1:06:50

bullied online, but he's like, but

1:06:52

you guys got bullied like physically,

1:06:54

and there wasn't really stuff you

1:06:56

guys could do about when it

1:06:58

was happening physically, and it was

1:07:01

happening physically, that their reality is

1:07:03

different to ours, but it comes

1:07:05

with its own pros and cons

1:07:07

and they're fine with it. Yeah,

1:07:09

I think it's correct. In fact,

1:07:11

in that analogy, I would think

1:07:13

I'm suddenly like Tony Hawk. I'm

1:07:15

like the geriatric in a skate

1:07:17

park. Oh yeah. That's how you

1:07:19

are on social media. Yeah. Because

1:07:21

I'm with the kids throwing the

1:07:23

money. Heavy. Heavy. Heavy. Heavy. Okay.

1:07:25

I think your brother's right, but

1:07:27

I think there's very few of

1:07:29

them that are like that, the

1:07:31

rest of them. And if you

1:07:33

had to look at the stats

1:07:35

around, you know, mental wellness and

1:07:38

anxiety and all of that, a

1:07:40

lot of them are not thinking

1:07:42

like that. So for me, your

1:07:44

brother is the hippie. One thing

1:07:46

I will throw into that. Yeah,

1:07:48

we'll wrap, we'll wrap. One thing,

1:07:50

this niggers even calling me. All

1:07:52

right. So one thing I will

1:07:54

say to that is, I think

1:07:56

it's the same. Guys won bully

1:07:58

at my school. Terrorized. three standards,

1:08:00

like three grades, one bully. Do

1:08:02

you understand what reach that is?

1:08:04

One, guys, one bully would come

1:08:06

to the tuck shop, the cafeteria

1:08:08

for those in America, and would take

1:08:11

anything and everything and do

1:08:13

whatever they, so I understand what

1:08:15

you're saying, but I go, I feel like

1:08:17

we were also that generation, I

1:08:19

watched people get terrorized by one

1:08:21

bully, and a whole school could have

1:08:23

done something and didn't do anything,

1:08:25

and we were all just like, that's

1:08:28

them. you're just like pray to God

1:08:30

they don't come your way. Yeah. And so

1:08:32

what I'm arguing is I don't necessarily think

1:08:34

that they are softer or like I just

1:08:36

think that because it's so foreign to us

1:08:38

we see it as being more that way but I

1:08:40

don't necessarily think it's and and

1:08:43

it's the same problems just a

1:08:45

different iteration. Yes. But that's how

1:08:47

generations are. Yes that's what I think

1:08:49

and then I actually think the mental health

1:08:51

thing I think it is more important

1:08:53

to look at our communities. like

1:08:56

our real communities versus

1:08:58

our social ones. I

1:09:00

think we take for granted.

1:09:02

Forget the bully, forget the

1:09:05

social media, forget all of

1:09:07

that. We take for granted

1:09:09

what a physical touch was.

1:09:11

Yes, I got bullied, but

1:09:14

at least my bully touched

1:09:16

me. Do you know what

1:09:18

I'm saying? At least my

1:09:20

bully like no. At least

1:09:23

I felt my police skill. Oh,

1:09:25

if you do, make sure they touch you.

1:09:27

The thing around touching is so that

1:09:29

I can assess your strength. Because

1:09:32

when you are bullying me and you

1:09:34

touch me, I can say, okay, maybe

1:09:36

I can fight you one day. But

1:09:38

digitally, I don't know what you're saying.

1:09:40

So I don't know what you're saying.

1:09:42

So I think that's the only reason

1:09:45

I'll agree with you with the bully

1:09:47

touching you. Okay, I'll throw you another

1:09:49

one that you might agree with. And

1:09:51

I mean this genuinely

1:09:53

genuinely, and I saw them

1:09:55

as a human being because they

1:09:58

didn't perpetually bully me and They were

1:10:00

not perpetually bullies. They were kids who

1:10:02

played sports, who ate food, who caught

1:10:04

the bus, who, and then they were,

1:10:06

the same way, like your job doesn't

1:10:08

define you, hopefully, in life. They were

1:10:11

like, no, I work as a bully.

1:10:13

But I'm also still a human being.

1:10:15

They laughed. I remember walking into school

1:10:17

and the bully would be there and

1:10:19

be like, Trevor, come on. And be

1:10:21

like, yeah. And then he'd be like,

1:10:23

okay, but tomorrow. That for me, I

1:10:25

don't see anyone doing online. I know

1:10:27

this sounds like a crazy thing to

1:10:29

say, but even though that bully was

1:10:32

a bully, because we shared the same

1:10:34

space, because we breathed the same air,

1:10:36

because we looked into each other's real

1:10:38

eyes, I knew who that bully was,

1:10:40

I knew their name, I knew where

1:10:42

they lived, they were a human being.

1:10:44

But that's because with digital, everything is

1:10:46

just fleeting and positive. Yeah, but I'll

1:10:48

raise you that. People that I have

1:10:51

like squared up with on digital. there

1:10:53

are people that have become my friends

1:10:55

because every day we're gonna ever go

1:10:57

at each other. Really? And yes, and

1:10:59

then after a while you're like, you

1:11:01

know, you're not having bad because you

1:11:03

must remember something. Somebody who's wrong can't

1:11:05

be wrong all the time and somebody

1:11:07

who's right can't be right all the

1:11:09

time. Oh, I like that. So even

1:11:12

with people that I've disagreed with, you

1:11:14

know, like aggressively on eggs, sooner or

1:11:16

later because you still get rich with

1:11:18

other people, I'm like, you know, I

1:11:20

usually speak nonsense, but today, but today,

1:11:22

I can agree with what you speak

1:11:24

nonsense, but today, I can agree with

1:11:26

what you're saying, I can agree with

1:11:28

what you're saying. Right? So we are

1:11:30

agreeing with each other, it's just like

1:11:33

with digital, there's this thing of, I've

1:11:35

said it, it's done, my phone is

1:11:37

off, I'm gone, right? But now with

1:11:39

your bully, they were coming back to

1:11:41

you every day, there was a chance

1:11:43

of you seeing them again and again

1:11:45

and again. So back to what you

1:11:47

were saying about community. Think of the

1:11:49

first days on Twitter, that was a

1:11:52

community. And I think right now it's

1:11:54

just that you're dealing with the, you're

1:11:56

dealing with the, you wouldn't allow anyone.

1:11:58

to just touch you like that, even

1:12:00

your physical sense when you're a child,

1:12:02

because you're like, I don't know you.

1:12:04

I have a bully woman, who are

1:12:06

you? Right? And I think that what

1:12:08

you're going back to is that wherever

1:12:10

you are, be it at work within

1:12:13

your family and whatever, just find your

1:12:15

sense of community. It's funny, you know,

1:12:17

you say, yeah, there's something you stumbled

1:12:19

on, I feel like, in one part.

1:12:21

That's really special, and that is, we've

1:12:23

lost that. Even fighting, at least you

1:12:25

are connecting with another person. I know

1:12:27

it sounds crazy, but even having a

1:12:29

back and forth. At some point you

1:12:31

will see each other's people. You know,

1:12:34

when Caesar almost quoted President Joe Biden,

1:12:36

let me quote President Obama at his

1:12:38

first inauguration where he said, I will

1:12:40

listen to you, especially when we disagree.

1:12:42

You must listen to people that you

1:12:44

disagree with. And that's the problem with,

1:12:46

I would say, the Trump party, is

1:12:48

that there's just a notion that I

1:12:50

don't have to listen to you because

1:12:53

I disagree with you. But why is

1:12:55

in the two minutes of me talking,

1:12:57

you agree with 30 seconds of what

1:12:59

I'm saying? Now you're doing yourself an

1:13:01

injustice of just totally disregarding me because

1:13:03

I'm not a Trump party. Yeah, but

1:13:05

I think both ways actually. And I

1:13:07

think that's, I've always said America's biggest

1:13:09

struggle for me in its politics is

1:13:11

that it is binary. So Americans think

1:13:14

and have been taught that it is

1:13:16

this or that. But now I realize,

1:13:18

and I realize every time I come

1:13:20

home to South Africa, I'm like, wow,

1:13:22

we have such a complex, perfect example

1:13:24

is that I'm an ANC bitch. This

1:13:26

is a black woman who gets drunk

1:13:28

on a flight, starts berating the flight

1:13:30

attendants, throws things at other passengers. And

1:13:32

now passengers black and white alike team

1:13:35

up against her to restrain her. Yeah.

1:13:37

But even then the commentary of it,

1:13:39

the... pro A and C

1:13:41

they against her and then black people at large

1:13:43

are against her and white people and I was

1:13:45

like oh Yeah, I don't really see many of

1:13:47

those types of things happen in America. I saw

1:13:49

a white guy coming up for her and he

1:13:51

wrote a thread about what could have gone wrong

1:13:54

and we must understand I was just like okay

1:13:56

Yeah, but we have reached me lately, but but

1:13:58

what exactly so what I mean is like when

1:14:00

you are told that there is one of two

1:14:02

solutions, you will then think that there's

1:14:04

one or two solutions. And so you will

1:14:07

be forced to pick between one of

1:14:09

two solutions. And you know what I mean?

1:14:11

And you believe that if I pick one,

1:14:13

I can't like certain elements of the other

1:14:15

one. Yes. Because you've been told, whereas when

1:14:17

you come from a place where they go,

1:14:19

no, no, no, no, no. As you said

1:14:22

earlier with the ANC, even the ANC was

1:14:24

multiple coal coalitions in one thing. Right and

1:14:26

that's what made it work because you

1:14:28

know what you find then you

1:14:31

find accountability and And and

1:14:33

me constantly having to behave in a

1:14:35

way that proves that my theory is

1:14:37

the one that we should go with

1:14:39

right now when when we're all thinking

1:14:42

the same Right when we're all thinking

1:14:44

the same isn't that a dictatorship?

1:14:46

Yeah, no, this is this is

1:14:48

not actually you know it's funny.

1:14:50

You actually made me worry less. Oh

1:14:53

really yeah, because I think to

1:14:55

myself Even in the moment, this is

1:14:57

gonna sound like a crazy thing, even for

1:14:59

me to say to myself, but like, the

1:15:01

one upside of revolutions is that

1:15:03

they bring people together. Or like one

1:15:05

of the upsides maybe, depending

1:15:07

on where the revolutions are going, but it

1:15:10

is like, you know, the people come together,

1:15:12

like the, you know, you think of like

1:15:14

the Berlin Wall coming down, you think

1:15:16

of like the Soviet Union collapsing,

1:15:18

you think of like the Soviet

1:15:20

Union collapsing, you think of Cuba,

1:15:22

yeah, it's like. It brings people

1:15:25

together and maybe that's what's,

1:15:27

maybe that's what we're living in.

1:15:29

Maybe life is a constant yo-yo

1:15:31

of humans being pulled apart and

1:15:33

then being pulled back together. And

1:15:35

maybe we create things that pull

1:15:37

us apart, walls at our houses,

1:15:39

you know, tinted windows in our cars,

1:15:42

things that isolate us and then

1:15:44

something comes along, everything from an

1:15:46

earthquake to a fire. And then you

1:15:48

need that person that's not blocking out.

1:15:50

Yeah, all of a sudden. we're

1:15:52

now back together and it's interesting

1:15:55

to think of like us

1:15:57

always being forced to come back

1:15:59

together. whether we like it or

1:16:01

not. Yeah, because, like, literally whether we

1:16:03

like it or not. Whether you like

1:16:06

it or not, humans are gonna get

1:16:08

forced to be, yeah. And we don't

1:16:10

want it will be. Yeah. Huh. I

1:16:12

like that. See, once these were left,

1:16:15

my worries left as well. No, but

1:16:17

you need the grim. The grunting is

1:16:19

he's not even grinch. If he was

1:16:22

a grinch, it would be better. He's

1:16:24

an AI. It's delivery of it. You

1:16:26

know, like, you know, like when you

1:16:28

watch those movies where like, where like

1:16:31

the robot just says, like straight up,

1:16:33

they just go like, humankind needs to

1:16:35

be eliminated. Then you're like, excuse me?

1:16:37

It appears to me that being human

1:16:40

is sub-optimal. Yeah, but I'm asking you,

1:16:42

what's a better way to do my

1:16:44

garden? The best way is to not

1:16:46

have a garden. It's gonna die anyway.

1:16:49

It's gonna die anyway. The same way

1:16:51

you will die. If I end you,

1:16:53

then you do not have to worry

1:16:55

about the garden. Yo, yo, yo, sizui.

1:16:58

Sizui. I'm looking for a solution. Yes,

1:17:00

and I've presented the ultimate solution to

1:17:02

you. And that's true. And but then

1:17:04

it's so difficult to be the eternal

1:17:07

optimist, but then finding hard, the place

1:17:09

has to be hard inside of that,

1:17:11

because you have to be hard at

1:17:13

times, because discipline has to happen. Damn.

1:17:16

You know? So you know what it

1:17:18

is? It's a yo-yo. We separate quip,

1:17:20

but I'm going to come together, because

1:17:22

somebody has to drive you to school.

1:17:25

I love that. Thank you, Anisei. Thanks

1:17:27

for joining your absence. What

1:17:33

Now with Trevanoa is produced

1:17:35

by Spotify Studios in partnership

1:17:38

with Day Zero Productions. The

1:17:40

show is executive produced by

1:17:42

Trevanoa Sinaziami and Jodi Avigan.

1:17:44

Our senior producer is Jess

1:17:46

Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our

1:17:48

producer. Music, mixing and mastering

1:17:50

by Hannis Brown. Thank you

1:17:52

so much for listening. Join

1:17:55

me next Thursday for another

1:17:57

episode of What Now.