0:00

Well, one

0:02

thing that I've

0:05

been facing for a while, maybe for the

0:07

past six,

0:09

seven years now, is that the

0:11

problems I have with my sister-in-law.

0:15

I mean, she is

0:18

a lovely person and she is

0:22

my brother's love, but I

0:24

have so difficulties to

0:27

accept her and to connect to

0:29

her and somehow I see

0:32

her as something between me

0:34

and my brother. My

0:37

brother and I used to have a very

0:39

strong connection before her

0:42

and I come from a culture where families

0:45

are, you know, how connected

0:48

we are. And

0:50

for example, this year they called me

0:52

to

0:54

say happy birthday to me and

0:57

I couldn't even talk to her and I just

1:00

tried to be polite

1:02

and I texted her and I said, I'm sorry, I'm

1:04

out, I cannot talk on the

1:06

phone.

1:09

However, I just cannot let her

1:11

in.

1:20

Support for this episode

1:22

comes from the herbal experts at Nature

1:24

Sunshine. Let's face it,

1:26

there are plenty of greens powders on

1:28

the market. They all promise the world

1:31

with little results. With Power Greens,

1:34

you can feel the difference immediately. Every

1:36

delicious glass includes two full servings

1:38

of nutrient-dense vegetables along

1:41

with a blend of over 200 superfoods, adaptogens,

1:44

nootropics, prebiotics, and more.

1:46

Don't settle for ordinary, experience

1:49

the extraordinary wellness boost from

1:51

Power Greens. Go to naturesunshine.com

1:54

to learn more.

1:58

Support for this show comes from Gold

2:00

Peak Real Brew Tea. There's

2:02

a time of day, about an hour before

2:04

sunset, where the rays feel

2:07

warm and the breeze feels cool.

2:10

But that hour of golden bliss is

2:12

always gone too soon. You

2:15

might rekindle that feeling with a bottle of Gold

2:17

Peak. Made with high quality tea

2:19

leaves, its smooth taste transports

2:22

you to golden hour, at any hour.

2:25

Gold Peak Tea, it's got

2:28

to be gold. Hello.

2:33

Hi Esther.

2:44

So

2:47

when I listen to

2:50

you, I'll tell you what goes

2:52

through my mind with questions.

2:56

Is it this particular woman?

2:59

Or would it have been any woman

3:02

that you would have experienced is

3:05

severing the tight bond

3:08

that exists between your brother and you? Or

3:12

how can my brother who loves

3:14

me so deeply choose

3:17

someone so different from me?

3:20

What does that say about his

3:22

love for me or about

3:25

how he sees me, that he could

3:27

choose someone who is so

3:30

not what I am?

3:31

Yes, exactly. Which

3:33

one? I have one more, but you can start with those

3:36

two. I think, to be

3:38

honest with you, he had other

3:40

girlfriends. But this particular one,

3:42

I think this is the person

3:44

that she is. That

3:47

she's so different from me.

3:49

In what way? She

3:51

is quite loud. To

3:55

me, she is a complete attention

3:58

seeker. has

4:01

drinking problems. I haven't

4:03

been in social activities

4:05

with them anymore because every time we used

4:08

to go to parties

4:10

together I used to get a terrible headache

4:13

and I used to leave the party. She

4:15

has some certain behaviors that

4:18

I feel that they hurt my brother.

4:20

To me it's so

4:23

painful but at the same time

4:25

I cannot talk about it to him because he

4:27

has made his choice and

4:30

I have to respect that. And

4:32

where is he in the picture because

4:35

this is a triangle so

4:38

where is he in the picture? Well

4:41

he tries to avoid everything.

4:45

We just had one conversation about

4:47

this

4:49

triangle as you said and

4:52

he said listen I don't want to get between

4:55

you and her whatever you feel

4:57

that is

4:58

happening you need to

5:00

talk to her straight and

5:03

tell her everything. And

5:05

I tried it once and it had

5:07

a very bad I

5:10

mean it became like a

5:12

disaster so it

5:14

ended up in a consequence where

5:17

we

5:18

stopped talking for maybe

5:20

eight nine months and we didn't see each

5:23

other. Because I told her

5:25

frankly that listen these certain behaviors

5:27

they hurt me and it's

5:30

just because of the love that I feel for my brother

5:33

because I know him and I know that it

5:35

hurts him too.

5:37

First she started denying them

5:39

all and then at the

5:42

end she said she's so she feels so

5:44

sorry for me that I feel

5:46

like this. You have a partner?

5:49

Me no. You

5:51

both have parents? Yes.

5:55

And your brother is close to his mom

5:58

or you are close to your mom? My

6:00

brother is a little bit closer. I don't

6:04

say very

6:06

closer, but he shows more tendency towards

6:11

my mom compared to my father.

6:15

But you have the sense that you

6:17

have been the closest to your brother. You

6:19

know, my mom was a career woman and

6:22

she was a hard worker all her life. And

6:24

all I can remember was that I

6:27

was always taking care of

6:29

him. And by the time we were in

6:31

our

6:33

young adulthood, we were so

6:35

close. All my best friends

6:38

are his best friends. And I mean,

6:41

he was so close to me. He was more

6:43

than a brother.

6:44

More than a brother made him what? I

6:48

don't know. Maybe like I felt like

6:50

he's the only person who understands me.

6:52

And he's a

6:55

person who actually respects. I

6:58

mean, he admires me. But

7:01

then when I saw

7:03

his choice, exactly as

7:05

you as you put it, I

7:09

doubted this, this

7:12

judgment of mine. So

7:14

it all became so hard, difficult.

7:18

And then I tried to forget everything and

7:20

just accept the fact that it is

7:22

what it is. And I have to like her

7:24

and I have to she she really wants to

7:27

act as if she's my sister. But

7:30

I cannot believe it's just it

7:32

sounds like a whole fake

7:35

scenario to me because she's been she's

7:37

been she's been lying a lot since

7:40

the beginning. And I cannot just believe

7:43

what she says. If we

7:45

were so close as I thought

7:47

we were, and if he understood

7:50

and admired me in the way

7:52

that I thought he did, how

7:55

could he have chosen this

7:57

woman? Exactly. and

8:00

it becomes a kind of a competition.

8:04

Or it becomes maybe he never really

8:06

understood me, because if

8:08

he likes what I am, how could he like

8:10

her?

8:13

And then it becomes a kind of a standoff,

8:16

but it is actually not

8:18

really about her. It is about

8:20

the loss that you

8:22

experience vis-a-vis your brother, that

8:26

you interpret as being related to who

8:29

he chose. It's the fact that

8:32

I assume he puts more energy at

8:34

this moment in his relationship with her

8:36

than with

8:38

you. That doesn't mean that his feelings for

8:40

you have changed, but he needed to make room

8:43

inside of him and around him to

8:46

be able to be married and

8:48

maybe have a family and basically bring

8:51

other essential people. And

8:53

you raised him and you feel

8:55

a sense of ownership

8:58

over him. And you feel that

9:00

the two of you have something unique and

9:04

unknown to most people. And

9:06

that an intruder, basically, an

9:08

intruder that you don't particularly, that

9:11

isn't according to your taste, has

9:14

come in between and

9:16

is slowly transforming

9:18

him, A, taking

9:20

him away from you, and B, turning

9:22

him into something different, or

9:25

someone different, than

9:27

the person that you have known and

9:29

with whom you were so tightly,

9:32

tightly

9:33

attached. But

9:35

the story is about you and your brother.

9:38

When you go to talk to him about

9:40

her, he's going to say

9:42

go talk to her. If you

9:44

go to talk to him about you and him,

9:48

and how much you miss him, and how much

9:50

you don't have your own partner at this moment.

9:53

And so it feels like the

9:55

partner that you had, which was

9:58

your brother, is moving.

9:59

is moving on. Well,

10:04

I to be honest with you, I tried

10:06

talking to him in this way as well, but

10:09

I don't know, maybe he doesn't get it. Maybe he's

10:12

every time I said

10:15

something that I'm missing you,

10:17

we used to be so close, you don't even ask

10:20

how I am. He's

10:22

like, what do you want

10:24

me to do? What do you want me to do?

10:30

I can understand what he's

10:32

going through as well. He's between

10:34

these two powerful women

10:36

apparently,

10:38

but for me to be honest,

10:40

it's not that I need anything from

10:42

him. It's just I don't

10:44

want to lose this tiniest

10:47

tie we have at the

10:50

moment and I feel like

10:52

it's going

10:54

away. I feel like it's disappearing

10:57

slowly by slowly. Because

11:00

a part of you goes to him

11:02

with a reproach,

11:04

as if you are the jilted lover. Why

11:08

are you not calling me? Why don't

11:10

you ask me how I am? Why

11:12

do you not miss me? You're

11:15

going with a reproach. You're not

11:17

just saying I miss you or how are

11:19

you or let's celebrate together

11:22

or

11:23

come visit me together. They can

11:27

come together for a visit and you can take an afternoon

11:29

alone with him. No,

11:32

she doesn't let him. She doesn't let him

11:34

come. Every time he used

11:36

to come visit me, he

11:38

used to, for example, to

11:40

go to the balcony and talk to her. She doesn't

11:42

like him to be with me. No,

11:45

she knows that you don't like her and

11:48

she

11:49

is marking her territory. Yes. But

11:52

it's like two women fighting

11:54

for the same men here, except

11:57

that one is a brother and one is a husband.

12:19

Support for Where Should We Begin comes

12:21

from Liquid IV. I am

12:24

a psychotherapist and my focus is

12:26

relationships. But I never forget

12:29

that we as human beings are integrated

12:31

systems, where our physical health,

12:33

our social health and our emotional

12:35

health are intertwined with each other.

12:38

I am a Belgian, you can take a Belgian out

12:40

of Belgium, but you can't take Belgian out of

12:42

me, and hence I bike. As

12:44

a biker, I drink water, but I'm

12:47

looking forward to drinking Liquid

12:49

IV. It is a powdered supplement

12:51

that can help you stay hydrated throughout

12:53

the day. And beyond hydration,

12:56

it also contains 8 vitamins and

12:58

nutrients selected to give your body

13:00

all-day benefits. Real people,

13:03

real flavor, real hydrating,

13:05

now sugar-free. You can find

13:07

your Liquid IV hydration multiplier

13:10

in bulk nationwide at Costco. Or

13:12

get 20% off when you go to liquidiv.com

13:16

and use code ESTHER at checkout.

13:19

That is 20%

13:19

off anything you order when you

13:21

use promo code ESTHER

13:25

at liquidiv.com.

13:31

We've

13:31

all heard of keto. It's the steak and

13:33

butter diet that everyone from Tim Ferriss

13:35

and Joe Rogan to Dr. Atkins himself

13:37

have tried and promoted. But here's something

13:39

I never knew about keto.

13:41

Mom, come quick!

13:41

Something's wrong with Ronnie! Hurry,

13:44

Mom! Hurry! Mom!

13:46

Turns out, back in 1997,

13:49

none other than Meryl Streep

13:51

made a movie based on a true story

13:53

about a kid with epilepsy who was

13:55

saved by the keto diet. At Gastropod,

13:58

we wanted to get to the bottom of this.

13:59

What is keto? What are ketones? What

14:02

does all of this have to do with saving people's lives?

14:04

This episode, the story of keto

14:06

you never knew. Plus, some

14:08

Jane Fonda. Find Gastropod wherever

14:11

you get your podcasts.

14:14

But Esther, how should I fix this? Something

14:21

is that your brother

14:24

and you

14:26

were very close in a particular

14:28

context.

14:30

Now that context has changed.

14:33

He has other people with whom he's

14:36

going to feel close.

14:37

And maybe

14:40

as close, even though differently, as

14:43

he was with you.

14:44

And you feel that you had an exclusive

14:47

lease on him. It helped

14:49

you both. It helped you both to grow up

14:51

together. You gave each other enormously.

14:56

But there is something over. Overly.

15:02

You know, you react. You're

15:04

allowed not to like this person and all of

15:07

that. But what is happening is

15:09

that you're upset.

15:11

You resent your brother for

15:14

not choosing you over her. There

15:16

is a competition.

15:19

And if

15:21

you want to preserve your brother and

15:24

if you want to keep a relationship with him,

15:26

you will have to find a way

15:28

to accept the reality of

15:31

your brother's life and your brother's choice.

15:34

It's both. And you can

15:36

be curious about it and you can ask him

15:38

questions about his life and you can be

15:41

inquisitive about

15:43

how she's different

15:46

and what brought him

15:49

to choose her.

15:51

But what is happening now

15:54

is that you see her as an attention

15:56

seeker, but so are you.

15:58

you want his

16:00

attention to, and you were used to getting it

16:02

above everybody else.

16:05

And I don't know to what extent

16:08

you don't have a partner because in some

16:10

way you want actually the same intensity

16:13

and closeness that you had with your brother.

16:16

True.

16:17

And so you go around and you say, nobody

16:20

I feel, with nobody do I feel what I felt

16:22

with him.

16:24

In a way, we had not just a sibling

16:27

love, we had a love that became something

16:30

else.

16:32

And it became the standard

16:35

that I either will find again or

16:37

I will be married to my brother symbolically

16:40

for the rest of my life.

16:42

Wow, you think so? So

16:45

all these problems of mine are

16:47

because of that. I

16:50

tell you what I think, that doesn't mean

16:52

I'm right. My

16:55

mind goes in many directions and you

16:57

are the one who then picks up on

16:59

one and says, that rings true,

17:01

there's something about that.

17:06

But I told you, I thought three things when

17:08

I was reading

17:09

your question and this was the

17:12

third.

17:13

There is an intensity

17:16

and a symbiotic tie in the love

17:18

that you have for your brother that has also

17:20

entered into your relationship with

17:23

other men

17:24

or women, whoever it is. He

17:28

is the beacon, you together created

17:31

the standard. And in a way

17:33

you see him choosing this woman as

17:35

a betrayal of your standard.

17:37

I thought we had something unique,

17:40

different, exclusive, better than

17:42

anything else. And by you choosing

17:44

this other person and the kind

17:47

of person you chose, you betrayed

17:49

our chart.

17:51

And when you don't meet

17:54

other partners,

17:54

it's in part because you are loyal to the world.

17:59

that contract, that invisible

18:02

unspoken contract that wove itself

18:05

over years of very tight

18:09

sibling caretaking, reciprocity,

18:12

mutuality. You're

18:14

the older? Yes, yes,

18:17

five years. That's right. Okay.

18:20

When you meet other potential

18:22

partners, how much do you think

18:24

about the quality of the relationship

18:27

that you have with your brother? Well,

18:31

to be honest with you, it was, yes, maybe 10

18:34

years ago, I used to make

18:37

that relationship as something

18:39

that I would really like my partner,

18:42

that bond I wanted with my partner,

18:44

but

18:45

then I realized it's not going to happen. So

18:48

it's for the past. And

18:51

then? And

18:54

then I tried to

18:56

accept the fact and

18:58

I had a relationship for like five years, but we broke

19:00

up because of

19:03

his commitment issues. Since

19:05

then, I didn't find anybody who could

19:07

actually fit into my life.

19:10

But

19:11

I don't compare anymore. I used to do that

19:14

long ago. Yes, that bond was

19:16

very special, but

19:19

it's been a while that it's

19:21

not anymore that special.

19:23

So I think I've kind of passed

19:25

that. Don't you think so?

19:31

No, I don't. Oh

19:33

my God.

19:50

I think consciously, you

19:53

probably don't think you are comparing

19:55

anymore because you're upset

19:57

at your brother and therefore you no longer

19:59

hold

19:59

him as a beacon. But

20:02

I think internally the measurement

20:05

stick is the

20:07

uniqueness of the relationship that you had

20:10

with your brother. And when

20:13

you meet people, now it's easier to say they

20:15

don't fit into my life.

20:18

I'm not so sure.

20:20

Let's put it like that. I

20:23

think that on

20:25

the face of it, you no longer compare.

20:27

On what lives inside

20:30

of you, deep inside of you, on

20:32

what you learned was the kind

20:35

of seamless

20:37

harmony that you had with your brother

20:39

and all of that.

20:40

Many men could appear as

20:43

having commitment issues in comparison

20:45

with the tightness of the bond that you had

20:48

with your brother.

20:50

True. That's

20:52

true. And to be honest with you, I've stopped looking

20:55

even for the past maybe

20:58

one or two years. I just said, okay,

21:01

it's not going to happen. So I stopped looking.

21:03

I beg you not to stop. Really?

21:06

Because you're going to stay married to

21:08

your brother for the rest of your life

21:10

if you don't do that. If you do that, symbolically,

21:14

it's like your brother will have been the husband

21:16

you never had. And

21:18

meanwhile, he will have a family and

21:21

a marriage with someone else and you will feel like

21:23

he is no longer in your life because

21:26

you got estranged from each other because every

21:28

time you come to him, you are feeling critical

21:31

and wistful as if he's

21:34

depriving you of something which

21:36

should have come to you that he's now giving

21:38

to her.

21:40

So

21:42

this issue seems to be much

21:44

more important than what I was thinking. I

21:48

just thought this is the reason why I

21:50

feel so alone.

21:52

So what is the next step if we get practical

21:55

after I accept everything? I stopped

21:58

comparing people who come to my life.

21:59

with him, put a bond at him. I think you have to

22:02

know that you had a

22:04

powerful, powerful connection

22:07

with your brother that basically

22:09

helped both of you grow up and

22:11

that will forever remain a very,

22:13

very special bond. But

22:15

there is a difference between that

22:18

sibling

22:19

relationship and living

22:23

an adult relationship with

22:25

another person.

22:26

You don't have to emulate what

22:28

you had with your brother

22:30

because in some way what you had with your brother

22:33

was a compensation for what you didn't have

22:35

with your mother. And

22:38

you were put in charge of your brother and you

22:40

were there to raise him and in

22:42

a way raising him made you feel

22:44

less lonely and less needy of mom.

22:47

So instead of thinking

22:49

what you were missing you thought about what

22:51

you can give and that was wonderful.

22:54

Take it, harness it and

22:57

now use all of that elixir and

22:59

allow yourself to be loved by another man

23:03

and allow yourself to open up to another

23:05

man and love someone else in return. It

23:07

won't be the same, it need not be the same.

23:10

You were a child, you are an adult now

23:14

and the relationship with your brother will evolve

23:17

and what will determine

23:19

it more than anything is the degree with

23:22

which you

23:25

accept him

23:27

versus the degree to which you constantly make him feel that there's

23:29

something he should be doing

23:31

that he's not doing.

23:33

So he's constantly

23:36

falling short because you're asking him a

23:39

kind of defendants and devotion

23:42

that he used to have

23:43

that now is no longer fitting. So

23:46

the challenge

23:49

with your brother is to transition into adulthood and

23:51

the challenge for you is to allow

23:52

yourself to be a woman with another man.

23:59

without holding that

24:02

relationship with your brother as the

24:05

symbol, the centerpiece

24:07

of what you should replicate. Okay.

24:12

It's too bad that you're depriving yourself

24:15

because it won't bring you closer to your

24:17

brother. In fact, to the contrary,

24:19

the more he feels responsible, the

24:22

more they will be distanced. The

24:25

more he knows that you are having

24:27

a full life elsewhere

24:29

with others, etc., the more he

24:31

can freely come toward you without thinking

24:34

that he's

24:35

owing you something.

24:37

There's a part of you that feels he owes you.

24:40

Yeah, but you know, since I left,

24:43

I mean, I left the

24:45

country, it's everything

24:48

is, I'm

24:50

being blamed, kind of,

24:53

about

24:55

leaving everything behind.

24:58

All of this is internal. You can be

25:00

in any other country.

25:02

You know, he

25:04

doesn't owe you, he loves you, you're

25:07

very important to him, but he also

25:09

has entered another stage of life,

25:12

and so do you.

25:14

And that will be a little process

25:17

of mourning about, you know, the

25:19

love of your life, so to speak. It

25:23

will be the love of your childhood, and

25:25

then there will be another love in a different

25:27

stage of your life right now.

25:30

If he remains the love of your life,

25:32

you will

25:35

more likely

25:37

forever be sad

25:40

and resentful that you lost him,

25:43

angry at his wife for

25:45

having taken him, and you will

25:48

have become a character in a play

25:51

that is not nearly as inevitable

25:53

as it seems to you. This

25:56

is not the triangle you have to live

25:58

in.

25:59

me a lot to think about. Thank

26:01

you very much, Esther. You're

26:03

welcome. Is this helpful? Yes, yes.

26:05

Amazing. As always. Thank you. I'm a big

26:08

fan of all your podcasts. So thank you very

26:10

much for the time.

26:12

Okay. Let us know what happens.

26:14

Okay. Definitely. Thank you so much.

26:24

This was an Esther Calling, a one-time

26:26

intervention phone call recorded remotely

26:29

from Two Points somewhere in the world. If

26:31

you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther,

26:34

it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute

26:36

phone call. Send her a voice message

26:38

and Esther might just call you. Send

26:40

your question to producer at

26:43

estherperel.com.

26:46

Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel

26:48

is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're

26:50

part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. In

26:53

partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut, our

26:55

production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva

26:58

Walchover, Destry Sibley, Huwete

27:00

Gatana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor

27:03

Kagan, Kristen Muller, and

27:05

Julian Hatton. Original music

27:07

and additional production by Paul Schneider. And

27:10

the executive producers of Where Should We Begin

27:12

are Esther Perel and Jesse

27:14

Baker. We'd also like to thank

27:17

Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller,

27:19

Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.