0:03

Before

0:03

you listen to the upcoming Esther

0:05

Calling, where we talk

0:08

about work,

0:10

I want to announce to you

0:12

an upcoming interview

0:15

conversation that I have had

0:17

with Ira Glass, the host

0:19

of This American Life, or

0:22

in my words, the godfather

0:24

of podcasts, where we

0:26

too discuss work, especially

0:30

when we come to a point where

0:32

we are beginning to lose steam for

0:35

something that still gives enormous

0:38

pleasure to others.

0:39

I've been doing the radio show

0:41

I do since the 90s, and

0:44

you know, it's 800 episodes, and

0:46

I'm aware of like, what am I spending

0:49

my time on this earth doing?

0:52

I probably should try something new, like I

0:54

don't even know what that would be, I'd really

0:56

have to like take time and figure out what would

0:57

that be. How often have you done what you're doing today?

1:00

Today? Here, with

1:02

me, now. Is this

1:04

being interviewed, or is this a therapy session? No, no,

1:07

no. It's

1:09

a multitude of things, but like, how

1:11

often have you done that? Gone on somebody

1:14

else's show without any

1:16

idea of what you're going to talk about, with

1:18

some ideas of what it could be, and

1:21

just kind of showed up because you're curious.

1:23

That's the main reason why you came, no? Yes,

1:28

yes. Join me

1:30

and Ira Glass on Apple

1:32

subscription on Office Hours.

1:43

Support for this show comes from AWS.

1:46

Business is constantly changing. How

1:49

are you staying ahead? With

1:51

AWS, you can power new possibilities

1:54

with generative AI. Predict

1:57

customer wants with machine learning. Speed up

1:59

prototyping with data-driven AI.

1:59

driven design and forge ahead

2:02

with the power of the most experienced cloud.

2:05

Just imagine how AWS can

2:07

transform your business. Learn

2:10

more at aws.com.

2:16

Did you know that you can make a

2:19

passable copy of your own voice with

2:21

AI in like five minutes? And

2:23

did you also know that there are people out there making

2:26

maybe some of your favorite songs using

2:28

AI tools? After 60 years

2:30

of research, we're finally getting to the point

2:33

where AI virtual assistants might be

2:35

able to make your life a little bit better. We're

2:37

covering all that and much more all this month

2:39

on The Vergecast. You know, The Verge Podcast.

2:41

It's The Vergecast. Available

2:43

wherever you get podcasts.

2:59

So I just came back about

3:02

a week and a half ago. I got

3:04

married in Pakistan to my now

3:06

husband. I felt like maybe

3:08

spending a few weeks with his family would

3:10

help us bond and get to know each other

3:12

better. If you're at

3:15

all aware of South Asian weddings, it's always

3:17

like a week long, full of traditions

3:19

and rituals. But it was also

3:22

difficult because we were trying to plan

3:24

it across two continents and three

3:26

countries. The wedding,

3:29

at least for me in my experience, I

3:31

feel like it kind of

3:33

ended on a bit of a confusing

3:36

note because I found out

3:38

some information which I was not privy

3:41

to before the wedding. And

3:43

I'm not sure if I had known

3:45

before the wedding would have

3:47

gone through.

3:50

Oh, wow. Okay. So

3:53

now, of course, we have a fork, right?

3:55

I can either say, what do you want to

3:57

talk with me about? want

4:00

to continue right here

4:01

or

4:02

is there a different question?

4:04

I think in some ways, both of them are

4:07

related. The

4:08

question I came to you with

4:11

initially was, how do

4:13

you begin the journey

4:15

of health, love, it's

4:17

something that I struggle a

4:19

lot with, both externally

4:22

to work as well as like at work.

4:25

And I think it manifests itself

4:28

in different ways. So

4:31

I'm going to ask you to feel

4:33

free to broaden it within both contexts,

4:37

right? Love and work are probably

4:39

two of the major poles of our life.

4:41

So when

4:43

you use the word self love, which

4:45

is a word that is, at

4:48

the same time, very cultural,

4:51

very contemporary, probably has very

4:53

different meaning in the US versus Pakistan,

4:56

and then has a very personal definition

4:58

for you, who

5:00

lives between those two cultures

5:02

as well. So you straddle different

5:04

worlds inside of you. And

5:06

they probably deeply influenced the

5:08

way that you define the word

5:11

self love and feel engaged

5:14

with it or entitled

5:15

to it. Absolutely.

5:17

I guess the context

5:19

is I've been working at my

5:22

current firm for the last five and a half

5:24

years. And I'm definitely

5:26

a top performer.

5:27

When I started my job, I didn't

5:30

think I would be doing anything remotely similar

5:32

to that line of work. And

5:35

I've been really successful at work

5:37

with it.

5:38

But

5:39

I always seem to struggle

5:41

like talking about my work and seeing

5:44

myself in the same light that my

5:47

employer and my team sees

5:49

me as. And it took

5:51

me a while to get my last promotion,

5:54

which, you know, because I don't do

5:56

the same type of work as everybody else, it's

5:58

always a different business.

5:59

case for my promotion. And it

6:02

kind of just always leads to self

6:04

doubt in like, you know, I hear

6:06

on my team with my manager, you're doing great

6:09

work, you're bringing

6:10

skills and work and business

6:12

that we wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

6:14

But then when it comes time for

6:16

a promotion, I

6:18

don't

6:19

get it.

6:20

And sometimes I feel like it's because

6:22

I don't speak up for myself. When

6:25

I talk to other people about this, the conversation

6:27

always ends up with I'm super

6:29

self aware, I know what I want, I

6:31

know how to do it.

6:33

But do I love myself enough?

6:35

And I don't know what

6:37

that means if I'm being really frank.

6:40

I don't know what it means sometimes either.

6:43

So let me ask it to

6:45

you differently.

6:46

In the way you see the world, do

6:48

you have the sense that if you

6:51

do your work really well,

6:53

if you bring skills,

6:55

if you bring clients, if you

6:58

further the growth

7:01

of the company, etc. It

7:03

is obvious that one way

7:06

that that recognition should come to you

7:08

is from the upper people discussing

7:11

the promotion with you, and not

7:14

for you to have to go and ask for

7:16

it. In the right order of things,

7:19

if you do your job well, it's

7:21

them who should be coming to you.

7:24

For sure. Okay.

7:26

Yeah. And therefore, if

7:28

they don't come, in that

7:30

same worldview, is the

7:32

idea, if I was doing really

7:35

great, they would come. Therefore, if they don't

7:37

come, maybe I'm not doing as great as maybe

7:39

I think I do or as they say I do.

7:42

Yeah, for sure. It's like, to me,

7:44

it's more merit based if I'm doing

7:46

great work, and you think

7:49

I'm making an impact, then you wouldn't

7:51

forget about me when it came time for promotions.

7:55

And

7:56

therefore, if you are

7:58

not going to go and ask

8:01

for yourself, it is

8:03

easy to see that you are lacking

8:05

something to plead

8:08

for yourself, to plead your case, to

8:10

make your case, and to ask

8:12

for more, that if you truly believed

8:14

in yourself, you would be asking for more.

8:17

And your view is, if people truly

8:19

believed in me, they would be offering me more.

8:22

Those are two cultural systems.

8:25

This is not just personal, this is not

8:28

just your own psychology. These

8:30

are worldviews, those are two different ways

8:33

of organizing social systems.

8:35

Is the concept of self-love common

8:38

in Pakistan?

8:39

No, absolutely not. The thing

8:41

is, it's starting to be with

8:43

the newer generation that's more global,

8:46

but if I went to my mom and I said, I'm

8:48

doing this because I love myself, I

8:52

grew up in a house where the

8:54

whole mindset was, this world

8:56

is not about me, myself, and I, and

8:58

Americans are very me, myself,

9:00

and I. We are not like

9:03

that. We're contributors to

9:05

the community. We think about others,

9:07

we think about our family. Being

9:10

selfish is not something that's

9:12

perceived as being good, at least

9:15

in our households, and then also probably

9:17

the time that my

9:19

parents reflect on in

9:22

terms of their parenting, what they

9:24

use to parent

9:25

us. Absolutely, but

9:27

of course, interestingly, individualism

9:31

is seen as a form of selfishness, rather

9:35

than it is the way that people

9:37

in a structure where you can't rely

9:40

on others, where people have been raised

9:42

for self-reliance, this

9:44

is, it becomes their mode of survival. It's

9:47

more self-centered. It doesn't necessarily

9:49

mean that it is selfish. So

9:51

each culture looks at the

9:53

other culture and defines it

9:56

with its own terms. If you don't

9:58

ask for promotions, You don't feel

10:00

confident. You lack self-esteem.

10:03

It's your problem. And

10:05

then on the other side, if people

10:08

are thinking about themselves, then

10:10

from the point of view,

10:12

as you described of your parents or

10:14

other people in your community, it becomes

10:16

very quickly defined as selfish.

10:19

Because every person sometimes

10:21

and every community sometimes defines

10:24

the behaviors of the others through

10:27

their own lens and how they would

10:29

have interpreted that behavior according

10:31

to their own cultural norms

10:34

and values. Now, you

10:36

live in the States or somewhere

10:39

close to here. You

10:41

have learned to translate

10:45

between these two languages, between

10:47

these two sets

10:49

of norms

10:51

for a long time. Is that true,

10:53

first of all?

10:54

Yeah, you're straight on. OK.

10:57

You know what your mother would say, but

10:59

you also know that what you say is in

11:02

part what your mother would say, and in part

11:05

what your bosses would say,

11:07

so to speak. There's a part of

11:09

you that is very much oriented

11:12

towards the recognition of others,

11:14

the serving to the community, the not putting

11:16

yourself front and center. And then there's

11:18

another part of you that has ambitions

11:21

that wants to grow, that wants to

11:23

advance in your career, that does

11:26

want that kind of recognition, but

11:29

without having to go and push your elbows.

11:33

Yeah, it's, you know, our parents pushed

11:35

us a lot academically. And it

11:37

wasn't ever for money or for recognition.

11:40

It was to make impact in the world.

11:42

I have had to learn how to speak

11:45

up because I've realized that that's what's

11:47

going to allow me to get more

11:49

responsibility at work to succeed

11:52

and then do what I came to do, which

11:54

is make a greater impact. So

11:56

that is actually very beautiful

11:59

because you have learned. to speak

12:01

up, you have learned an individual

12:03

practice for a collective outcome.

12:07

Yeah,

12:07

it backfires often. Like,

12:10

you're right, I have learned how to work

12:13

like in the corporate setting and

12:15

it's always for the good of the rest

12:17

of our team but everyone

12:19

else isn't working in that paradigm. So

12:21

it's so easy to forget me when

12:24

it comes time for those

12:26

decisions or when it comes time for recognition

12:28

because like I

12:31

often feel like I'm being used, like people will come

12:33

to me and they know I'm not going to say

12:35

no to something, I'll help them with

12:37

anything but

12:40

it doesn't work both ways.

12:42

Are you the only woman of color

12:45

on your units? Is there diversity

12:48

on your team?

12:49

I think our workplace is very

12:52

inclusive and diverse. When I first

12:54

started, I

12:55

was the only person

12:56

of color on my team

12:59

and now

13:00

it's a mix. Some

13:02

projects I am and other projects

13:04

I'm not.

13:06

Do you have at all a sense that the reason

13:09

that things don't come your way is

13:11

because of issues of

13:13

race and color or is it because

13:16

you think the system says this

13:18

company, if you want to move

13:20

ahead, you need to go and ask for it.

13:23

They don't offer it.

13:24

Yeah, it's definitely the latter.

13:27

I don't think it's grace but

13:29

it is definitely a company where self-promotion

13:32

is absolutely critical

13:34

as you continue to grow up the

13:36

company. Okay, so

13:40

that's a very important distinction because

13:43

then the question becomes, how

13:46

can you do more of it without

13:48

experiencing a value

13:51

conflict? If I put myself in

13:53

the center, I become the selfish

13:55

person I'm not supposed to be. How

13:57

do I put myself in the center in a way? that

14:00

actually furthers the impact

14:02

that I seek to have. And

14:05

imagine, I was just thinking,

14:08

what would that conversation sound like?

14:11

You go and you talk with whoever you

14:13

need to negotiate the upgrade with,

14:16

and you

14:17

basically say, this is a very interesting

14:20

moment for me.

14:22

I really know

14:24

that there is a lot of appreciation for the work

14:26

I do, and I'm very clear on that.

14:30

And that feels very good. Where

14:32

I'm from, when

14:34

people out of home, one

14:37

of the ways that people show

14:39

their appreciation is by offering

14:41

them a promotion. In the same

14:44

way that we do not ask people

14:46

if they want to drink something or eat

14:48

something, we make sure that we

14:50

put the food in front of them, because

14:52

we do not want somebody to have to ask.

14:56

It is very challenging for me to have to ask.

14:59

It is not the cultural practice from

15:02

which I come, and I know that you

15:04

are very interested in the concept

15:06

of diversity and inclusion. This is a

15:08

moment of talking about diversity

15:11

as it comes to promotions.

15:14

How different cultures do

15:16

this?

15:18

Yeah. You know, it's weird

15:20

because I know we're talking about work, but

15:22

what you're saying to me, it applies

15:24

so much to my personal

15:26

life. I think this is a huge point

15:28

of

15:30

tension between my

15:32

partner and I, because

15:35

even though he came to North

15:37

America, while after me, we were both

15:39

born in Pakistan, sometimes

15:42

I feel like

15:42

he's more well-adjusted to the

15:45

individualistic lifestyle

15:46

than I am, but we

15:49

have similar conversations about how

15:51

I feel like I do things without being asked,

15:54

and then I feel like I'm

15:56

not loved enough, because

15:59

it's... not reciprocated and

16:02

he often will be like, but

16:04

you didn't ask me to do it.

16:06

He's very good about

16:08

like, I'd like for you to acknowledge

16:10

that I did this. I'd like for you

16:12

to give credit where I did this and

16:15

I don't ask for that. And

16:17

I, you know, we have this back and forth where I'm

16:19

like, but I don't ask for

16:21

credit for things. I just do them

16:23

because I know you like them.

16:26

That is such a classic

16:28

conversation that is often very vested

16:31

in culture because, you know,

16:34

if it's expected from you to

16:36

do certain things, the last thing

16:38

you look for is appreciation

16:42

or recognition because it's expected.

16:45

If, and he says, when

16:47

I do certain things, I want to be acknowledged for

16:49

it. And you say, neither do I ask,

16:52

neither do I expect to be acknowledged. Yeah.

16:55

I wish you would just do. And he

16:57

says, I will do when you ask because

16:59

how else am I supposed to know?

17:02

Yes. Like these conversations,

17:04

they're not just at home, but

17:06

at work, it will be something like, you know,

17:09

my teammate during daily standups,

17:12

she'll be like, I'm drafting an email

17:14

today to send out to so-and-so. And

17:17

I wouldn't ever come and say that's what's

17:19

taking

17:19

up my time. I would just come and say, I've sent

17:21

the email already.

17:39

Support

17:41

for Where Should We Begin comes from AG1.

17:45

There are no one size fits

17:47

all solutions in life. And

17:49

too often, people want a magic

17:52

bullet that can solve their problems. But

17:54

that does not exist. In

17:57

life, answers are often way

17:59

more nuanced. And when it comes to getting

18:01

the nutrition and the vitamins that your body

18:03

needs, AG1 tries

18:06

to fit your needs and

18:08

make things simpler.

18:09

AG1 offers 75% vitamins

18:12

and probiotics. And according

18:14

to AG1, a daily serving of

18:16

their drinkable supplement can supply

18:19

energy, focus, strength

18:21

and clarity. If you're looking

18:23

for a simpler, effective investment for your

18:25

health, you can try AG1 and

18:28

get 5 free AG1 travel

18:30

packs and a free one-year

18:32

supply of vitamin

18:34

D with your first purchase. Go

18:36

to drinkag1.com.com.com.com.com.

18:40

That's drinkag1.com.com.com.

18:48

Fox Creative.

18:50

This is advertiser content from SC

18:52

Johnson. My

18:54

name is Colin, also known as Trash Colin.

18:57

Did you know that only about 9% of

19:00

plastic waste gets recycled? That's

19:02

because recycling is not always intuitive.

19:05

A lot of us are wish-cycling, which

19:07

is when you toss something into the recycling

19:09

bin hoping it'll get recycled. It's

19:12

a good intention, but unfortunately, it's

19:14

not that simple. Like plastic

19:16

bags. They can be recycled,

19:19

but not when they're

19:20

mixed in with other recyclables. They

19:22

can clog sorting machines and cause an entire

19:25

batch of recyclables to end up in

19:27

the landslide. So

19:30

a little bit of research goes a long

19:32

way. Look up your city's recycling

19:34

program to find out what they can take and

19:36

make a plan for items they can't. It's

19:39

normal to feel overwhelmed by the plastic

19:41

crisis. But what keeps me hopeful

19:44

is taking small actions every single

19:46

day, knowing that those actions add

19:48

up. Learn more about

19:51

how to end the wish cycle at scjohnson.com

19:53

actionmatters

19:58

comfortable identifying

20:02

the riches of this conversation, the

20:04

nuances of this conversation, exactly

20:06

the way that you and I are having it right now.

20:09

That is so an interesting difference

20:12

here. It is totally accepted

20:14

for you to talk about the hardships

20:17

of the image that takes two days or the

20:20

fact that you've really put time aside to

20:22

do this. And it is so

20:25

interesting how easily

20:28

people who grow up here sometimes,

20:30

because there are many people who are like you and they

20:32

don't even have the cultural camouflage

20:35

to really explain it, but they experience

20:37

their internal life like you. But

20:40

many times it's true people are encouraged

20:42

to speak up, to say what they've done,

20:44

to highlight the efforts that it takes.

20:47

And it is a kind of a subtle

20:49

invitation or not so subtle invitation

20:52

for recognition.

20:53

And on the side of your humility,

20:56

you say, I don't make a big

20:58

fuss. I just come and say it's

21:00

done. But internally,

21:03

you also expect

21:05

the recognition. You actually do. But you

21:07

don't want to have to ask for it the same

21:10

way that you don't want to have to ask for the cup of tea.

21:13

And if you've made that conversation public,

21:17

it would be a very interesting opening

21:20

up of many layers

21:23

of communication that exist

21:26

in your workplace and in your marriage.

21:29

Shed a light onto this. This is so

21:32

interesting. This is not me and

21:34

you. These are two different

21:37

cultures. But interestingly,

21:39

in both cultures, there is an expectation

21:42

of recognition. It's just that

21:44

in one, you're allowed to make

21:46

a big deal to show that you

21:49

deserve it. And in the other,

21:51

your actions should speak

21:54

for themselves and everybody

21:56

learns to maintain harmony.

21:59

by giving the recognition without

22:02

the other person

22:02

having to ask for it. It's

22:05

considered a form of attunement. You

22:07

know that that's what you're supposed to do.

22:10

You know that you're supposed to ask,

22:12

shall I carry your bags and not

22:14

wait for the other person to say, can you help

22:16

me?

22:17

Oh my God, yes. This

22:20

actually happened

22:21

the week after the wedding. My

22:24

brother got mad at my husband

22:26

because he didn't pick up my bags and he was

22:28

letting me carry my suitcase in. And my

22:30

brother was like, are you seriously

22:32

just going to let her do that? Like she's never going

22:35

to ask for help. And it created

22:37

so much tension because it's,

22:39

you know, it's just two different ways of looking at

22:41

the world.

22:43

But your husband knows the code.

22:46

It's not like it's a foreign code to him,

22:49

right?

22:50

I don't think that it is that he

22:52

was raised the same way.

22:55

It's also partially a gender

22:58

thing. You can lift the word partially

23:00

out of it, but go ahead. It

23:02

is a gender thing. I think in South

23:05

Asia, there is a different expectation

23:07

of how women behave

23:10

in society and how men behave in society.

23:13

One of the things I've learned through this whole marriage

23:15

process is how much

23:16

effort we

23:18

in South Asia focus on making

23:20

sure that women know what to do, how

23:22

to do it, how it affects everybody

23:25

else, what the consequences

23:27

of their actions are, even before they think

23:29

it. Whereas men kind of haphazardly

23:33

can go through life and make mistakes and

23:35

it's okay.

23:37

What is the child order of

23:39

your husband? He's

23:42

a middle child. Okay. How

23:44

did he respond to your brother?

23:46

He's definitely on the quieter side,

23:49

so he didn't say anything. But

23:50

he was very upset at me that

23:53

he felt like he was being blamed

23:55

for something that he didn't

23:58

have the intention to do.

24:00

Do you think he

24:02

minded to carry your

24:05

luggage or that he just in

24:08

his mind it was if you need help you'll ask?

24:11

I mean having had these conversations

24:14

I know it's the latter but

24:16

my knee jerk reaction is that

24:18

he didn't care. Right. So

24:22

this is where you will need to

24:24

learn a little bit more to interpret

24:27

his behavior from his vantage

24:29

point otherwise you're

24:31

going to continuously confirm every

24:34

time he doesn't help you, every time he

24:36

doesn't thank you, every time he

24:38

doesn't acknowledge you it will

24:40

continuously be interpreted to

24:42

the same length

24:44

and

24:45

you're going to end up feeling very

24:47

unloved which is part of why

24:50

I'm imagining you began to say

24:52

that you may not have married him had you known

24:54

all of this.

24:57

No I already knew these things

24:59

I think what I didn't know

25:01

is leading up to the wedding it

25:03

was a lot of I

25:06

knew what is expected of me and

25:08

what my parents expect and what our family

25:10

expects and how to do that

25:13

from a

25:13

societal point of view and he's

25:15

very much like well I don't want to do this because I don't

25:17

want this

25:18

and that's it period.

25:20

It ended up leading to a lot of

25:22

conflicts between us.

25:24

One of my you know solutions

25:26

to this conflict and this constant

25:29

stress we were both under was to

25:31

tell him that he should go take a vacation for

25:33

a week. I learned after

25:35

the wedding that he started talking to someone

25:38

else on that vacation and it

25:40

wasn't anything I

25:43

guess

25:45

maybe other people would call it like

25:47

not cheating but to me it

25:49

was a huge

25:51

blow because at the end of the day

25:53

it was the same thing how could you not have

25:55

thought about how much this

25:57

would hurt me.

25:58

How did you not care? And his

26:01

response was that in that moment, he wasn't

26:03

thinking about

26:03

anyone else but himself.

26:05

And I went through

26:07

an even harder time because it's

26:10

always harder for the girl, especially

26:12

in South Asian weddings.

26:14

And I thought about, like, if

26:17

I'm being honest, I thought about running away and

26:19

kind of just, I wasn't able to do work

26:21

that I enjoy. I wasn't able to, like, just

26:24

relax and enjoy that because I

26:26

constantly felt guilty about having to do

26:28

something in relation to wedding

26:31

press.

26:31

I thought about running away and doing

26:33

something for myself, but I didn't because

26:36

all I could think about how

26:37

disappointed he or my family or his

26:39

family would be.

26:43

And have you and him been able

26:45

to work through some

26:47

of what had happened between

26:48

him and you?

26:50

You know, the

26:52

hardest part about all of this is I found out

26:54

maybe a few days after we got married

26:57

and we still had a solid week left

26:59

with our family. So I had to

27:02

suck

27:02

it up and make sure we were a happy

27:05

married couple. And when I

27:07

came back, it was very

27:10

hard for

27:11

me to think about anything or feel

27:13

anything because I had spent

27:16

so much time just

27:18

numbing it. I am, you know, very

27:21

in tune with my emotions, but I can also,

27:23

it

27:23

becomes really hard to reconnect with them

27:26

if I shut them off.

27:28

Well, it's not that you shut them off

27:31

only, it's that you put them aside

27:33

because your emotions

27:36

are not to be more important

27:38

than the social convention and

27:41

the maintaining of the social harmony

27:44

and the relationships with all the families.

27:46

So that is where the individual has to

27:48

step back behind the collective

27:51

and the community.

27:52

Yeah. Thank you.

28:09

Support for this show comes from AWS.

28:13

Business is constantly changing. How

28:15

are you staying ahead? With

28:18

AWS, you can power new possibilities

28:20

with generative AI. Predict

28:23

customer wants with machine learning, speed

28:25

up prototyping with data-driven design, and

28:27

forge ahead with the power of the most experienced

28:30

cloud. Just imagine how

28:33

AWS can transform your

28:35

business. Learn more at aws.com.

28:43

Support for this episode

28:45

comes from AMP. If you're looking for a

28:47

place to create live playlists, chat

28:49

live about your favorite tracks, and find your

28:51

new go-to artist, you'll want to

28:54

check out AMP, Amazon's live audio

28:56

app. With AMP, music fans like

28:58

you can create your own live audio show. AMP

29:01

provides a space for communities of music

29:03

lovers to play the songs they love, chat

29:05

with other fans and artists in real time, and

29:08

even get paid via the creator fee. And

29:11

there's more. With the Come Up, AMP's

29:13

emerging artist program, Atlanta's

29:15

music tastemakers set out to find

29:17

three rising stars from the city's hip-hop

29:19

scene. You can see their picks in the Come

29:21

Up docuseries,

29:22

or head to the AMP app to share your prediction on

29:24

the next big names in hip-hop. Play

29:27

music, chat live, and find

29:29

your music community on AMP. Download

29:31

AMP on iOS in the App Store or for Android

29:34

in the Google Play Store. Available

29:35

in the US only.

29:40

You do have the opportunity through your

29:42

husband to learn to speak up, as

29:45

much as he has the opportunity through

29:48

you to learn to become much

29:50

more attuned

29:52

to the needs and the feelings of the person

29:54

next to him. And not just to say,

29:57

this is what works for me, why don't you adapt?

30:00

You know, you learn to be like me. No,

30:03

if he chose you and

30:06

he chose someone who is so

30:08

adept at thinking about

30:10

others,

30:11

that you are adept at thinking about him, then

30:14

the goal is not just for you to continue to

30:16

think about him and to

30:19

presume every need he may have

30:22

ahead of himself, but also

30:24

for him to become more sensitive

30:27

and attuned and attentive

30:29

to you.

30:30

And for you

30:32

to use the opportunity to say,

30:35

I'm going to learn through him

30:38

to be a little bit more outspoken, to

30:40

be a little bit more

30:42

vocal,

30:44

because it ultimately

30:48

will serve me a little bit as

30:50

well, and not in the instrumental sense

30:52

of serving. But if I chose someone

30:55

who's good at thinking about himself, it's

30:57

because sometimes I could learn

30:59

a little bit of that. It's like each of you

31:02

chose someone whose proclivities

31:05

match your vulnerabilities.

31:08

And the same thing will apply at work,

31:10

but in a more

31:12

broader sense. You know, you're

31:14

going to use your

31:16

knowledge of a different cultural system

31:19

to describe that to the people,

31:22

and that it applies not just to you

31:24

because you are from Pakistan, but it applies

31:26

to probably other people on the team who

31:28

are quieter, who are waiting

31:31

for others to notice them rather than to

31:33

push themselves on the front stage, and

31:37

that you will be a good interpreter

31:40

of that dynamic. So it goes beyond

31:42

you, and you can explain exactly

31:44

that. You know, it's very interesting.

31:47

This company works on one model.

31:51

But I'd like for you to know there's another

31:53

way to go about this that would actually

31:55

make quite a lot of people

31:57

here feel much more acknowledged.

31:59

much more appreciated and therefore

32:02

much more engaged and therefore probably

32:04

even more producing.

32:07

So I guess what I'm hearing

32:08

from you is, you know,

32:11

self-love translates to having

32:13

a voice and

32:15

practicing

32:17

using it both

32:19

at work and in my personal life.

32:21

Yes,

32:22

but you may use the word self-love.

32:26

It's a certain form. I think

32:28

that if you know that when you speak

32:31

up, you're not just doing it for you

32:33

only. You will have less

32:35

of a concern that to be

32:38

vocal is to be selfish

32:40

and that you have to stay subdued,

32:43

subservient, and subjugated

32:46

in your role as a woman and

32:49

that you should not ask for too much and

32:52

that you should wait for your turn and

32:54

that you should think about how you need to affect

32:57

everybody else and all

32:59

of that code.

33:01

If I didn't talk to you about self-love in

33:03

the American sense of the world, you're

33:05

going to experience a conflict in

33:07

doing it because you

33:09

will feel like you're doing everything against

33:11

the thing that you were brought up to be.

33:14

But the one thing they did say in your

33:16

house is being educated,

33:18

being learned, being very ambitious,

33:22

being very successful is about

33:25

impact. And as long as you don't

33:27

just see this as benefiting you, you

33:30

will have a much easier time to

33:33

experience what you call self-love because

33:37

the love of the self benefits

33:40

the community rather than just

33:42

yourself.

33:44

Yeah,

33:45

I didn't see it that way.

33:47

How does it land on you now?

33:50

I mean, it's definitely harder,

33:52

but I

33:53

think this is the little

33:56

trinket to remind myself, right? Because I don't think that I'm

33:58

going to be able to do it.

33:59

like it's very easy for me to stand

34:02

up for someone else to ask for things I know that

34:04

are going to be good for the rest of the project

34:07

or they are gonna be good for

34:09

the

34:10

team but

34:11

if it's just solely about me

34:14

then I I will wait like keep waiting

34:16

to be asked about it. Tell

34:18

me something, do you have people on your team

34:20

who can do for you what you do for them?

34:22

I'm trying to build those. I'm

34:25

trying to give people the opportunity

34:27

to do that. You know

34:31

when they used to measure social competence

34:33

of children in school they

34:35

often looked at the kids who put

34:37

their hands up as the children

34:40

who are more socially competent and more assertive

34:42

and more confident and more engaged etc

34:45

etc

34:46

and they then for interpreted the kids

34:48

who didn't put their hands up as having

34:51

less of all those social competencies

34:54

rather than looking at the

34:56

fact that these children may have come from

34:58

different cultures and different backgrounds

35:01

in which putting your hands up was

35:03

considered boastful,

35:06

attention-seeking

35:08

and selfish. You're describing

35:11

my childhood right here. So you don't

35:13

have a problem it becomes

35:15

maybe sometimes problematic in this

35:17

environment but that doesn't mean you have a problem

35:20

and that you lack self-love you

35:22

are raised with a different code

35:25

and it becomes interpreted as a lack of self-love.

35:27

You have a lot to teach the people

35:30

that you work with about other ways of being

35:32

in the world and other ways of

35:34

being in relationship to

35:36

other people. Now that said you're

35:39

going to choose your mentors,

35:41

you're going to choose your allies, you're going to choose

35:44

the people who sometimes can go

35:46

to bat for you when you don't feel that you

35:48

are the best representative. There

35:50

are loads of people who need other people

35:53

sometimes to negotiate on their behalf

35:56

and you are right these are the very same

35:59

people who are often and wonderful at

36:01

negotiating for others.

36:03

So it's not that you don't know how to do

36:05

it, it's that you have learned not to

36:07

do it on your behalf, but you have

36:09

learned this. Can

36:12

you unlearn it? Yes, to a certain

36:14

degree, you can learn to do it differently. If

36:17

you should choose to.

36:18

How does all this resonate

36:21

for you?

36:23

Yeah, it's, I

36:25

think it's just kind of looking at

36:27

the box

36:28

from a different angle. It's

36:31

a way of looking at things that I hadn't looked

36:33

at before, so thank you for that.

36:37

And how are you feeling right now? That's

36:40

what you think, because I don't see

36:42

you, but I hear your tears, and

36:45

I hear your sadness.

36:48

At

36:50

work, we often talk about

36:53

creating a culture

36:55

not where people fit

36:56

in, but where people belong.

36:59

It's two different things.

37:01

I think,

37:03

like that point of view,

37:05

I feel like I've been trying very

37:08

hard always to fit in, and maybe

37:10

not taking the time to

37:12

share

37:13

with people how they could

37:15

make me feel like I belong.

37:19

Beautiful, beautiful. In

37:22

this conversation, you try

37:24

to fit in, or you

37:26

belong?

37:28

I guess in this conversation,

37:30

I

37:30

felt like I just am, and

37:33

I tried to just be.

37:36

So, I

37:37

guess I felt like I

37:39

belonged.

37:41

Because you honored the many

37:43

parts of you.

37:45

Yeah, and I guess you heard

37:47

the many parts of me, so

37:50

thank you for that. Thank

37:52

you.

37:54

So, I invite you, because we

37:56

only have one very brief conversation,

37:59

but if you can... take some of that with you

38:02

to work and home where

38:04

you hold on

38:06

to the many parts, not

38:09

rigidly,

38:09

but openly,

38:11

and that beautiful distinction you just

38:13

made. Instead

38:15

of putting all the effort in fitting

38:18

in, fitting in as a wife, fitting

38:20

in as an employee that

38:23

you cultivate the

38:25

experience of belonging. But you are right,

38:27

it is a reciprocal experience.

38:30

It's not something you do alone. It's

38:33

something the culture, the environment

38:35

of the place where you are, the relationship

38:38

you are in, or the team

38:40

you are on, they

38:42

are

38:43

direct co-creators

38:46

of the feeling of belonging.

38:48

Yeah.

38:58

This was an Esther Calling, a one-time

39:00

intervention phone call recorded remotely

39:03

from two points somewhere in the world. If

39:05

you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther,

39:08

could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute

39:10

phone call, send her a voice message

39:12

and Esther might just

39:13

call you. Send your question to

39:16

producer at EstherPerel.com.

39:20

Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced

39:22

by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the

39:24

Vox Media Podcast Network in

39:27

partnership with New York Magazine and The

39:29

Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom,

39:32

Eva Walshover, Destry Sibley, Hiwete

39:34

Katana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor

39:37

Kagan, Kristen Muller,

39:38

and Julian Haas. Original

39:41

music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

39:44

And the executive producers of Where Should We

39:46

Begin are Esther Perel and

39:48

Jesse Baker. We'd also like

39:50

to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary

39:52

Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack

39:54

Foley.

40:02

Support for the show comes from AWS.

40:05

Business is constantly changing. How

40:08

are you staying ahead? With

40:10

AWS, you can power new possibilities

40:13

with generative AI. Predict

40:15

customer wants with machine learning, speed

40:18

up prototyping with data-driven design, and

40:20

forge ahead with the power of the most experienced

40:23

cloud. Just imagine how

40:25

AWS can transform your

40:28

business. Learn more at aws.com.

40:37

Support for this podcast comes from Intel.

40:40

Help your team get ahead of the work week with

40:42

laptops on Intel vPro and

40:45

Intel Evo Design. With instant

40:47

wake, lightning fast responsiveness,

40:49

and smooth multitasking, they help

40:51

your team do their best work. Visit

40:53

intel.com slash works best

40:56

for details. Results may vary. Thank

40:58

you.