0:00

I have been married to

0:03

my husband for 20 years and

0:05

we have two daughters. The

0:07

younger of which is now 16

0:09

years old and she and

0:11

her father don't get along. They

0:14

don't respect each other. I think

0:16

they love each other but they

0:18

don't understand each other and they

0:20

don't seem to be working towards

0:22

understanding each other. I

0:24

get stuck in these situations

0:26

where the two of

0:28

them are angry with

0:30

each other often at the

0:32

dinner table and fighting and

0:35

I don't know how

0:37

to help. And I'm

0:39

hoping that you can help

0:41

me find some words or

0:43

some methods or some way

0:45

to communicate with them. When

0:47

I try to talk

0:50

to them about this, they

0:52

both get angry with

0:54

me and they don't seem to

0:56

want to repair the situation

0:59

and I feel very stuck in

1:01

the middle and I'm hoping

1:03

you can help me. Support

1:16

for Where Should We Begin comes

1:18

from another simple favor, a

1:20

sequel to Paul Feig's dark comedy

1:23

thriller A Simple Favor. frenemies

1:25

Stephanie Smothers and Emily Nelson, played

1:27

by Anna Kendrick and Blake

1:29

Lively, reunite on the beautiful

1:31

island of Capri for Emily's grandiose

1:33

wedding, where revenge is a

1:36

dish best served chilled with a

1:38

twist. And with more twists

1:40

than the winding roads of Capri, you

1:42

can stay on the edge of your seat

1:44

from start to finish. Another

1:46

simple favor premieres May 1st

1:48

only on Prime Video. Support

1:55

for this show comes from Nordstrom. Nordstrom

1:58

brings you the season's most wanted brands.

2:01

Skims, Mango, Free People, and

2:03

Princess Polly. All under $100. From

2:06

trending sneakers to beauty must -haves, they've

2:08

curated the styles you'll wear on

2:10

repeat this spring. Free shipping,

2:12

free returns, and in -store pickup make it

2:14

easier than ever. Shop now

2:16

in stores and at Nordstrom.com. Yes.

2:39

That's about right. And

2:42

when they both get angry with you,

2:44

that's a moment when they ally together? No.

2:51

No, Unfortunately.

2:54

That was too optimistic on my part.

2:57

I wish. Give

2:59

me if you can. a

3:02

frequent example, because I don't assume

3:04

that every time it's different. It's

3:06

probably much of the same over

3:09

and over. It

3:11

seems like there

3:13

are two things that

3:15

happen over and over again,

3:17

two different things, depending on which

3:19

one of them is the

3:21

instigator of the conversation. And

3:23

usually it's because one or the other

3:26

of them is already in a bad

3:28

mood. and we come together

3:30

from our day at the

3:32

dinner table and one scenario

3:34

is that my husband has

3:36

been reading online about politics

3:38

or stewing about something at

3:40

work and he comes in

3:42

already a little bit angry

3:44

and he finds Something

3:47

that he's unhappy about with our

3:49

daughter her room isn't clean.

3:51

She didn't do the dishes when

3:53

she said she would her

3:55

grades aren't good etc etc. And

3:58

he will just start sort

4:00

of laying into her about

4:02

that. First not

4:04

in a mean way but just

4:06

pointing it out. And then

4:08

she gets very defensive and then the

4:10

two of them get angry with each

4:12

other so that's one scenario. And

4:15

then, no, no, because you're part of that

4:17

scenario too. And then So

4:19

I find that I have

4:21

sort of a freeze response where

4:23

I sit and watch it

4:25

escalate. And if I try to

4:27

step in, it's usually in

4:29

the defense of one or the

4:31

other. And I have a

4:33

really hard time choosing how

4:37

to do that because I feel that my

4:40

husband isn't being fair to my daughter. yet

4:43

he has a point about, you know, that

4:45

she hasn't cleaned her room or she

4:47

hasn't done the dishes. And

4:50

if I come in defense

4:52

of my daughter, it

4:54

immediately turns to comments about my

4:56

parenting or am I not letting

4:58

him parent. And eventually he will

5:01

say, I can't win and he'll

5:03

just leave the table. So

5:05

yeah, I'm just looking for words. That's

5:09

one. And what's the second one? The

5:13

second scenario will be

5:15

that my daughter

5:18

will have had a bad day and

5:20

be sensitive about something. And

5:22

my husband is someone who likes

5:24

to tell stories and push boundaries.

5:26

And he will make a comment

5:29

that offends her. And

5:31

she will get over

5:33

the top out of all

5:35

proportion angry with him and

5:38

say that he's, she'll

5:40

say something. Caustic like you're racist

5:42

or you're you know, you

5:44

don't understand anything or you know,

5:47

you always do this to

5:49

me and then she'll start yelling

5:51

and screaming at him and

5:53

he will be greatly offended and

5:55

usually leave or Defend himself

5:58

and then leave

6:00

And do you

6:02

ever talk about yourself do you

6:04

have a day? Do you

6:06

have a mood? Are

6:08

you an active protagonist

6:11

in this triangle besides trying

6:13

to be a peacemaker? There

6:16

are plenty of times that

6:18

we have regular conversations at the

6:20

table when everyone is

6:22

in a good mood and

6:24

everyone is willing to... I

6:28

guess my role when things are

6:30

not going well is to

6:32

try to change the subject or

6:35

say something. calming or give

6:37

an anecdote about my day, usually

6:40

too late when nobody wants

6:42

to hear it, because they're

6:44

already angry. They're already in

6:47

there. Yeah. And

6:49

when you talk with each of them alone,

6:51

is it just a blame first,

6:53

each one blaming the other for being

6:56

impossible? Or is there

6:58

any accountability whatsoever that each

7:00

one can take? I

7:02

find when I talk to My

7:04

daughter, she will

7:06

take accountability, but there's always

7:09

a, but he's the adult.

7:11

He should, he's my father. He

7:13

should understand this. He should,

7:15

you know, so she will say,

7:17

yes, I understand that was

7:19

uncalled for, but you, you know, there's always a

7:21

but, but you have to admit that he was

7:23

out of line or but you have to, you

7:25

know, this or that or, but you should be

7:27

defending me because you're my mother and you aren't.

7:30

And then from my husband.

7:34

He'll go away and think about

7:36

it and there was a time when

7:38

he'd then come back and have

7:41

a conversation with my daughter and they

7:43

would talk it out and Things

7:45

would be okay in the end and

7:47

a couple years ago that ended

7:49

when she turned 14 13 or 14

7:51

He stopped trying and

7:53

she doesn't go to

7:55

him so When

7:58

I go and try to talk about it often

8:00

it will turn to comments

8:03

on my parenting. You're too easy on

8:05

her. You always take her side.

8:07

You know, you, we should be a

8:09

team. Things like that. Okay.

8:13

So tell me, just

8:15

for me to get a bit more context, what

8:18

kind of family

8:20

environment did you grow up in? And

8:23

what experience do you have

8:25

with bickering and escalations

8:27

and high reactivity at the

8:30

dinner table? And

8:32

then the same question will

8:34

apply to him. Your daughters,

8:36

I know because... They're living

8:38

it. But yeah,

8:40

what was it like in

8:42

each of your own homes

8:45

growing up? Because some of

8:47

this we have learned. We

8:50

have actually watched other people

8:52

do. We have

8:54

had other people do to us. We

8:57

have had people do to each other. There

9:00

is the manifest rules of how you

9:02

argue, how you fight, how

9:04

low you go, how

9:07

off topic you can be, how

9:09

little accountability you take. And

9:11

then there is also

9:14

the underlying issues of

9:16

loyalty, betrayal, lack

9:19

of support, rejection, the

9:22

dynamics that lay underneath this.

9:24

You should be with

9:26

me. You know, everybody

9:28

is actually wanting you to

9:30

be their fauna, fauna

9:32

for me, please

9:35

me. So what's

9:37

been your experience and what do

9:39

you know about his? And

9:41

obviously you didn't have it with

9:43

your other child, so you also know

9:45

that this is a triangle, it's

9:48

contextual, it doesn't say

9:50

specific things about who you are

9:52

or who he is or who

9:54

she is because this is a

9:56

dynamic, this is relationally created. by

9:59

people. But they

10:02

can do other things because they have

10:04

had other relationships with their other

10:06

children. That's always very good to know.

10:09

Right, that's true. So

10:12

my husband and I come from

10:14

very different family situations. I

10:16

grew up in the Midwest with

10:18

a family that did not

10:20

fight in front of each other

10:23

if we had a disagreement.

10:25

Of course we did occasionally, but

10:27

often Disagreements would

10:29

happen one on one behind

10:31

a closed door so if

10:33

my parents had an issue with

10:35

something that was going on they would go

10:37

into their room and talk about it and then

10:39

come out with a decision. I

10:41

feel like I had a fairly. calm,

10:45

happy upbringing. When I think

10:48

about it, I feel like

10:50

I was loved. And they

10:52

were also very academic. So

10:54

everything was intellectualized in my

10:56

household. And it wasn't played

10:58

out in emotion as much. My

11:01

husband, his

11:03

mother was probably

11:05

undiagnosed bipolar

11:07

and an alcoholic.

11:12

they had a lot of sort of

11:14

turmoil in their family growing up. And

11:16

I think he had, I think

11:18

maybe there were a lot higher

11:21

emotions on a daily basis at

11:23

his house than there were at

11:25

mine, for sure. Of

11:29

the whole range or conflictual

11:31

emotions? I think the whole

11:33

range. I think he had

11:35

a difficult teenage time. You

11:38

know, he didn't get along with his parents for a

11:40

time when he was a teenager. his

11:43

mother passed away recently and

11:45

she was capable of huge

11:47

love and huge, everything

11:49

was over the top with her,

11:51

but also, you know, a

11:54

lot of the other side of that coin too. Was

11:57

his rebelliousness towards his

11:59

parents as a teenager somewhat similar

12:01

to that of your daughter? Well,

12:07

not in the way that

12:09

it looks. I think the two

12:11

of them are very similar personality

12:13

-wise. He reacted

12:15

to the chaos

12:17

in his household by staying away from

12:19

home a lot. He got a job

12:21

early on so that he had his

12:24

own money. He was in some ways

12:26

taking care of his family at that

12:28

age and kind of doing what he

12:30

wanted. And

12:32

my daughter

12:34

just has chosen very

12:36

different ways to

12:38

express herself and hobbies and

12:40

she's my first I maybe

12:43

this is typical maybe it's not

12:45

but my older daughter sort

12:47

of has similar interests to my

12:49

husband and I and my

12:51

younger daughter has gone as far

12:53

away from things that

12:55

we understand as possible she

12:57

we both work with

12:59

our hands and loved camp

13:01

and be outdoors and

13:04

she wants to become

13:06

a nail tech and she

13:08

does acrylic nails for her friends

13:10

and she's very rooted in

13:12

the city we live in and has

13:14

a big group of friends. I mean

13:16

she's just chosen things that it's

13:18

been a stretch for me

13:21

to understand why she's chosen

13:23

the things she has but she's

13:26

amazing and brilliant. Are you

13:28

curious about yourself? always.

13:30

More curious than reactive. Yeah.

13:33

By the way, nails and

13:35

acrylic is hands, you know? Yeah.

13:37

Yeah, right. Yes. It

13:40

is work with the hands. Yeah,

13:42

it is. It's still a trade that

13:44

way. Different from dirt

13:46

and camping and knots, but

13:48

it is no less handy. That's

13:50

true. And

13:52

how? How

13:54

much are they able to be

13:56

reflective about what happens? I

13:58

notice that this is something that happens

14:00

between us. Whenever

14:03

he does this, I do that. Whenever

14:05

she does this, I do that.

14:07

What really gets to me is, I

14:09

understand that this is my challenge. Is

14:12

there any reflective ability

14:16

or is it all

14:18

pure reaction? In

14:21

the moment, it's pure reaction, and I think

14:23

there is a little bit of reflection. I

14:25

think my husband thinks about it, but

14:27

I don't get to hear what he's thinking

14:29

about it usually. And

14:32

you want help for you,

14:35

or you think that you could

14:37

be even more effective with

14:39

them, and you want actually

14:41

to magically make these

14:44

two people put a stop to

14:46

their spat. I want

14:48

your magic a stare. I

14:52

guess I'm unhappy

14:54

with my own

14:56

reaction in the moment

14:58

because I feel like

15:01

they both walk away

15:03

feeling like I've betrayed them. And

15:06

it would be amazing if they were to

15:08

get along better or if there was something

15:10

I could do when I saw the argument

15:12

coming or say, you know, that

15:15

could diffuse that. We

15:22

have to take a brief break, so

15:24

stay with us and let's

15:26

see where this goes. Support

15:38

for this show comes from Quentz.

15:40

This Mother's Day, you can honor

15:43

the mothers in your life with

15:45

gifts as elegant as they are,

15:47

like cashmere sweaters from $50. 14

15:50

karat gold jewelry, Italian leather

15:52

bags, fragrance and more. The

15:54

best part? All Queen's items

15:56

are priced 50 to 80

15:58

% less than similar brands. I've

16:00

tried some Queen's items myself as

16:03

a beautiful blue cashmere sweater that

16:05

I got from my husband and

16:07

as far as Mother's Day for

16:09

myself, I'm just gonna put it

16:11

out there. A suitcase. Not

16:14

just to carry on a bigger

16:16

one because I'm going away for a

16:18

long trip would really be quite

16:20

welcome for me. Thoughtful, timeless, totally her.

16:23

Shop Mother's Day at Quinn's.

16:25

Go to quins.com slash begin

16:27

for free shipping on your

16:29

order and 365 day returns. That's

16:31

Q U I N

16:33

C E dot com slash

16:35

begin to get free

16:37

shipping and 365 day returns

16:39

quins.com slash begin. Support

16:44

for this show comes from Shopify. When

16:47

you're starting your own business, finding

16:49

the right tool that simplifies

16:51

everything can really be a game

16:53

changer. For millions of businesses,

16:55

that tool is Shopify. Shopify

16:58

is the commerce platform behind

17:00

businesses around the world and 10

17:02

% of all e -commerce in

17:04

the US from household names like

17:06

Mattel and Jim Shark to

17:08

brands just getting started. They say

17:10

they have hundreds of ready -to

17:12

-use templates to help design your

17:14

brand's style. And they can make

17:16

marketing easier by creating email

17:18

and social media campaigns. And

17:20

Shopify's AI tools created for

17:23

e -commerce can help you

17:25

write product descriptions, generate discount

17:27

codes, and more. Turn your

17:29

business ideas into sales now

17:31

with Shopify on your side.

17:33

Sign up for your $1

17:35

per month trial and start

17:37

selling today at Shopify.com slash

17:40

Esther. Go to Shopify.com

17:42

slash Esther. That's

17:44

Shopify .com slash Esther. Support

17:52

for Where Should We Begin comes from

17:54

Remento. Remento is a

17:56

beautiful way to preserve a

17:58

parent or grandparents' memories and stories

18:00

in a keepsake book, all without

18:02

them having to even write

18:04

a word. Each week, Remento invites

18:06

your loved one to record

18:08

their spoken response to a prompt

18:10

about their past or to

18:12

share a memory about a photograph.

18:15

And then Remento automatically turns

18:17

those recordings into a

18:19

beautiful book featuring a QR

18:21

code that plays the

18:23

recording. preserving both their stories

18:25

and their voice. With

18:27

Mother's Day coming up, it might be the

18:30

perfect opportunity to capture your own

18:32

mother's story and keep it

18:34

close for you and your

18:36

family for the years to

18:38

come. Visit remento .co slash

18:40

begin. That's remento .co slash begin

18:42

to take advantage of their

18:44

best price of the year

18:46

by taking $15 off your

18:48

$99 purchase. because the story

18:50

of your family deserves to

18:52

be remembered. I

19:01

have a bunch of thoughts that come, but

19:03

I do want to ask, has any of

19:05

you ever said let's go see a family

19:07

therapist? Yes.

19:10

And? So...

19:13

just so I know how much

19:15

my field has helped you or not.

19:17

Yeah, well, I'm worried because we're

19:19

opening a whole new conversation. But

19:21

so my daughter was really

19:23

sick. She's better

19:25

now. But for the last

19:28

few years, she was

19:30

anorexic and went through treatment

19:32

programs. And we Basically,

19:35

I refed her at home, and she's

19:37

doing much better now. But

19:40

as part of that process, she saw

19:42

a therapist, I saw a therapist, and

19:44

there were meetings that we were supposed

19:46

to all do together. And

19:48

my husband does not like therapy, and

19:50

my daughter does not like therapy, and

19:52

it was difficult to get us all

19:54

into a room together, and then it

19:56

often sort of would blow up in

19:58

the room, and they would leave feeling

20:01

unsafe. So it means

20:03

my husband is not open to family

20:05

therapy. It was part of the treatment

20:07

programs. At first it was part of

20:09

the treatment programs and then we had

20:11

hired somebody to help us outside of

20:13

the program as well. And

20:16

was it ever helpful?

20:19

Was there anything you would say, this thing

20:21

we didn't pursue it or we didn't

20:23

stick to it, but it actually was a

20:26

very good idea? I

20:30

don't think we ever got far

20:32

enough that we had a plan

20:34

to an action. I

20:37

felt like it was helpful

20:39

to talk about the things

20:41

openly, even when it was

20:43

not in the healthiest way.

20:46

And so I felt like it was helpful, but

20:48

I don't think either of the other two of

20:50

them felt that way. And

20:53

may I ask why you continue

20:55

to have dinner, the three of you together? It

20:58

is sort of a

21:00

core value of mine, and

21:02

I live in hope

21:04

that just in the way

21:06

that my daughter has

21:08

gotten better from her illness, I

21:11

was hoping that their relationship would

21:13

heal. I know that those

21:15

things don't necessarily happen just on their

21:17

own, but I was hoping just by

21:19

being together every day in whatever way

21:21

we can be there, there's more

21:23

of a chance that everybody's. going

21:25

to get along. And that

21:27

proving right? I think

21:30

very slowly it may be.

21:33

So the anger

21:35

comes less frequently, but

21:39

when it happens it feels just

21:41

as intense, like that whatever's underneath

21:43

the surface, it still just definitely

21:45

hasn't healed. I just feel

21:47

like they're learning, maybe it's that my daughter's

21:49

getting older or I feel like they're

21:51

learning to be in a room together without

21:53

fighting. Who do

21:55

you think has the most

21:57

latitude and flexibility for change? They're

22:01

so similar. Because

22:05

this kind of dynamic that

22:07

you describe, escalations like

22:09

that are always symmetric. When

22:12

you have two people who do fight

22:14

-fight, they are typically

22:16

similar. If you have one fight

22:18

and one flight, you get the

22:21

difference. If you had two flights,

22:23

it's similar. So when you

22:25

have two escalating people who go

22:27

at each other, but it is

22:29

not uncommon to just say they're

22:31

so similar. But I still will

22:33

ask, which one has in your

22:35

mind more flexibility, even

22:37

if it's a 3 %? I

22:40

think my daughter has more

22:42

flexibility, but there's part of me

22:44

that feels like She's

22:47

the kid, like she

22:49

shouldn't have to be the

22:51

one to heal the problem. Does

22:53

that make sense? Yeah, but

22:55

that's because you think the problem

22:58

is him. Whereas the relationship

23:00

is not him or her. The

23:02

relationship is the space in

23:04

between. And that

23:06

space in between, as my friend

23:08

and colleague Hedi Schleifer says,

23:10

is currently polluted. And

23:13

so the relationship is that

23:15

space. And each person

23:17

is responsible to tend to

23:20

that space so that it

23:22

doesn't get polluted. That

23:24

makes sense. And so when you are

23:26

more flexible, it's not because you

23:28

should be dealing with the problem and

23:30

the problem is the father. It's

23:33

that you have what we

23:35

call enlightened self -interest. It's

23:38

in her interest to have

23:40

this space not be so polluted.

23:43

to have these

23:45

arguments, these spats, not be

23:47

so in her belly to the point

23:49

where she can't put anything else

23:52

in, because it takes up all the

23:54

space. That's

23:57

just one metaphor. This is

23:59

not what anorexia is, but this

24:01

is one dynamic that is

24:03

happening. So if I said

24:05

to her, are

24:08

you curious about certain things you

24:11

could potentially do? that

24:13

could change the dynamic between you and

24:15

your dad. What would she

24:17

say? I think she'd

24:19

be open to that. Okay. And

24:23

then if I said, I understand

24:25

you're very creative. You're

24:27

doing nails and you're a

24:29

painter basically. You're

24:31

a painter on people's hands. And

24:35

you adorn people's bodies. And

24:39

that is

24:41

very... and very

24:43

fine. It's fine motor,

24:45

so you have precision. And

24:48

that precision is not just in

24:50

your hands. That precision is part of

24:52

the personality that you have. And

24:55

from that place, I

24:58

would like to suggest

25:00

to you certain things

25:02

that are rather counter -intuitive,

25:04

but they have the power to turn

25:06

the whole dynamic around. Because

25:10

A dance between two people

25:12

is a bunch of successive moves.

25:15

If you change one move,

25:17

all the others must adapt. That's

25:22

really how intricately interwoven pieces

25:24

of an escalation are. If

25:26

there's one thing you don't

25:28

do that you typically do

25:31

or say, it creates a

25:33

space for a whole different thing.

25:37

Okay. But

25:40

the same thing will apply to you. You're

25:44

asking, actually, for me to help you

25:46

do what you've already been doing,

25:48

which you know doesn't really work. And

25:51

you want to do a

25:53

better job at what doesn't

25:55

work. So I'm

25:57

asking the wrong question. No,

26:00

it's not the wrong question. It's

26:02

that it's very difficult for

26:04

us to give up. When

26:07

something doesn't work, we don't instantly say,

26:09

I need to try something else. We

26:11

first say, I need to try harder. We

26:16

all have it for some reason. We all

26:18

often are inclined to that. And we're going

26:20

to try harder at the very thing that

26:22

we already know isn't working. So

26:25

I have to resist the temptation

26:27

of doing that with you. You

26:30

know, there's a lot of different situations. First

26:32

of all, it's to say, you know, after

26:34

a day that is very bad, the next

26:36

day you just say, I think we're better

26:38

off today not eating together. Why

26:40

would we do that? I'll

26:43

eat half an hour with you and then I'll eat enough

26:45

an hour with the other. And I think we'll all

26:47

have a nice time. And

26:49

then see what happens. Okay.

26:52

See if they say great idea or if they say no,

26:54

no, no, no. must be at the table together. And

26:56

then you say, well, then you should have dinner together because

26:58

I'm going to go and have dinner with a friend. Yes.

27:02

This is a bad show. It's a

27:05

bad TV program. And I'm not interested. Yeah.

27:09

You know, it's like I am

27:11

not interested. I don't see

27:13

why I should be subjected to

27:16

this on a regular basis. Not

27:19

angry. Just simply do your thing,

27:21

but don't involve me. OK.

27:23

rather than putting yourself at the

27:25

heart of the matter and thinking

27:27

that you are the only one who can stop

27:30

this madness. Step

27:32

out of it. See

27:37

what happens. Listen, you're going

27:39

to just collect information. I'm

27:42

not saying this is the

27:44

answer to anything, but you

27:46

have to, in some way,

27:48

find ten new moves. See,

27:52

you're the only one who's here, so I'm going

27:54

to talk about your moves. Maybe

27:56

at some point you put good music. You

27:59

just say, I think we should

28:01

all listen to music, soothing the nervous

28:03

system. It's food for

28:05

the soul. Let's listen to music. What would you

28:07

like to listen to? What would you like to

28:09

listen to? Each of us pick a piece of

28:11

music. We should be

28:14

better off at listening than at speaking because

28:16

speaking, we don't do a great job. But

28:18

I think what this house could really

28:20

learn is a different quality of

28:22

listening. We could listen

28:24

to poetry, we could listen. I

28:26

wouldn't suggest listening to politics, since

28:29

that puts him in a bad

28:31

mood, or I would just listen

28:33

necessarily to spoken word, unless it's

28:35

artistic spoken word. That's

28:37

another one. But

28:39

break the configuration. Shuffle.

28:43

This is rigid. This is

28:45

predictable, this is narrow, and everybody

28:47

seems to be falling into the

28:49

trap every time. I

28:52

mean, one could write a script. He

28:54

says this, she says that, that makes him do

28:56

this, that makes her do that, then he walks

28:58

away, and she's all, look at this, you can't

29:00

even talk to him, look at what he does,

29:02

he can't handle anything. I mean,

29:04

it's, and by the way, it's not original.

29:08

That script goes in many, many homes.

29:12

Sure. And instead of saying, you

29:14

know, what can I do to make you people love

29:16

each other? You just

29:18

say, you won't be the first dad and daughter

29:20

who don't get along in your adolescence. In fact,

29:22

you know that very well. You had the same

29:24

relationship with your parents. And then

29:26

you can joke with her and you can say, you know,

29:28

by the time his mother died, she was capable of deep

29:30

love. I

29:32

mean, she may have to

29:35

wait for you, which means

29:37

you bring her into this

29:39

because you get scared. You

29:42

get really really scared and

29:44

you think I have to rescue

29:46

these people from their shadow

29:48

Maybe that's not true. I

29:51

Don't know enough to make a declaration

29:53

about this. It's just like but

29:55

sometimes I think it's worth checking out

29:57

Okay, but I know that when

29:59

we have that fear or that maybe

30:01

she will plunge again into

30:03

the anorexia or that she

30:05

will have recidivism or you

30:07

know that So you're holding

30:10

this very fragile equilibrium, making

30:12

sure that nothing bad happens.

30:15

And it actually doesn't really rest

30:17

on you. Sounds good.

30:20

I don't want it to rest on me. But

30:23

it does feel like that. Your

30:25

body tells me, I carry this. You

30:28

know, it's like they hurl all

30:30

kinds of things at each other and I'm the

30:32

only one who realizes what they just said. Now

30:37

that you can say too, yeah. You're

30:40

saying horrible stuff at each other

30:42

and you punch each other as

30:44

if you were cardboard. And

30:47

while you are not feeling anything because

30:49

you're busy being angry, I feel

30:51

every word hitting my belly and I

30:54

feel everything a punch in my

30:56

gut because I'm actually the one experiencing

30:58

what you're doing. You

31:01

know, if it was physical, somebody would

31:03

say, ah, that hurts. But

31:05

because it's words, one

31:09

doesn't even notice it. One

31:11

just says, let me punch you back. The

31:14

next thing one day, if

31:16

you really need to go and ump this a

31:18

little bit, is you videotape them. You

31:21

don't say a word, you get up, you take

31:24

your phone, and you just tape them. They

31:26

would hate that. They would hate

31:28

that, but there would be somebody

31:30

saying, I'm your witness. I

31:32

just want you to see what this looks like.

31:34

And then you send it to them alone separately

31:36

and you just say, I thought you may want

31:38

to know what this is like. They

31:45

may not like it, but it

31:47

may be effective. You

31:51

don't have to say anything. You just film

31:53

it and then you go to the side

31:55

and you just film it. And

31:58

then you send it to them and you just say, You

32:00

know, sometimes we don't really see ourselves

32:02

from the outside in. This

32:06

is what this looks like. We

32:14

are in the midst of

32:16

our session. There is

32:19

still so much to talk about,

32:21

so stay with us. Support

32:26

for Where Should We Begin comes

32:29

from another simple favor. a

32:31

sequel to Paul Feig's dark comedy

32:33

thriller, A Simple Favour. Frenemies,

32:35

Stephanie Smothers and Emily Nelson, played

32:37

by Anna Kendrick and Blake

32:40

Lively, reunite on the beautiful island

32:42

of Capri for Emily's grandiose

32:44

wedding, where revenge is a dish

32:46

best served chilled with a

32:48

twist. And with more twists

32:50

than the winding roads of Capri, you

32:53

can stay on the edge of your

32:55

seat from start to finish. Another simple

32:57

favorite premiere may first only

32:59

on Prime Video. Avoiding

33:04

your unfinished home projects because you're not sure

33:06

where to start? Thumbtack knows

33:08

homes, so you don't have to. Don't

33:11

know the difference between matte paint finish

33:13

and satin? Or what that clunking

33:15

sound from your dryer is? With

33:17

Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro.

33:19

You just have to hire one. You

33:22

can hire top -rated pros, See price

33:24

estimates and read reviews all on

33:26

the app. Download today. Spring

33:30

Savings are in the air and at

33:33

Ross, where they have savings on all

33:35

the brands you love. From the latest

33:37

fashion to outdoor decor and even pet

33:39

supplies, savings are in every aisle. Go to

33:41

Ross and save 20 to 60% off other

33:43

retailers' prices on your favorite spring fines. So

33:54

she is a

33:56

mediator. She's

33:58

always taken that role. I

34:01

mean, I don't mean professionally.

34:03

I just mean that like

34:05

she takes on that role

34:07

very nicely. And when she left

34:10

for college, there was part of

34:12

me that was like, I am

34:14

worried that this family is going

34:16

to fall apart when she's not

34:18

here. And I realized that that's a

34:20

horrible. thing to think

34:22

because all of that

34:24

weight of those feelings are

34:26

on my older child she

34:28

shouldn't have to play that

34:30

role you know and take on

34:32

that responsibility and is she the

34:34

mediator between her sister and her

34:36

dad or is she actually the

34:38

mediator between her mom and her

34:40

dad uh between her sister and

34:43

her dad i would say that

34:45

is the official picture i know

34:47

that but how much is there

34:49

actually How much does your

34:51

younger daughter actually express things

34:53

that you don't say but do

34:55

think? A lot, for

34:57

sure. Yes. So the

34:59

mediation is actually, I mean, what

35:01

you're saying is that your daughters are

35:03

in between your relationship between you

35:05

and him. Yeah,

35:08

that's true. Which

35:11

if you want that to shift, you go

35:13

to him and you say, our

35:15

daughters have spent a lot of time. Being

35:19

between you and I,

35:21

that's the bold move. Yeah.

35:25

I think that's what I have to do. That

35:28

feels real. Tell me more. I

35:32

think my

35:35

husband and I,

35:37

we've sort of

35:39

allowed our relationship

35:41

to become

35:43

two separate relationships that happen

35:45

to touch. We

35:47

get along really

35:50

well and He is very

35:52

independent and likes to do

35:54

his own thing and I'm

35:56

independent and like to do my own

35:58

thing and so there are There are

36:00

large periods of time

36:02

where he comes home from

36:04

work. He goes out

36:06

to the shop, you know his

36:08

man cave in the back

36:11

and I sort of take care

36:13

of things in the house and then we touch at

36:15

dinner time and then we don't really talk

36:17

he goes to bed before i do

36:19

or vice versa and we just don't

36:21

get deep about things anymore it's

36:23

almost like we have a friendship

36:25

and we live together you know

36:27

we also have a good sexual

36:29

relationship but that's not the

36:31

same as emotionally connecting the way

36:33

we don't. So all of

36:36

those emotions, you're making me feel

36:38

like maybe the truth of it is

36:40

that all of those emotions are

36:42

then played out through our kids instead

36:44

of from each other. Yes, that

36:46

is what I am saying. Yes.

36:48

I don't like that. And

36:50

that you actually connect through them even

36:53

if it's negative and that you

36:55

come close when you argue about them

36:57

and that they have a job

36:59

which is to make sure to bring

37:01

attention on to them. so that

37:03

you don't have to have the... So

37:05

it deflects it from the two of you, but

37:07

at the same time it brings you to

37:09

at least discuss something that you jointly share. And

37:12

it is one of the few things at this

37:14

moment that you jointly share. So

37:17

what would happen, you think,

37:19

if you

37:21

put all of this on paper to

37:23

Him, on paper or in a letter,

37:25

and you just said, I've been

37:27

thinking. And

37:30

you seem to be

37:32

a... group of people, and

37:35

he's thoughtful as well. And

37:38

what would happen if

37:40

you say, here's what I imagine

37:42

is a different reading of what's been going

37:44

on here. And

37:48

if we really want to help our kids, it's

37:51

you and I who need to come back together. I

37:55

like that. I can do that. Do

37:58

you think he would be receptive to? I

38:01

do. I think that would

38:03

be a good way to approach it. It's

38:05

actually been a way that

38:07

we have done things in the

38:09

past when we, you know, feel

38:11

very emotional about something or there's

38:13

a complicated problem between us. One

38:15

of us won't write it down

38:18

and send it. Beautiful. And

38:21

then potentially even go and

38:23

camp together and spend a few

38:25

days alone. and

38:28

make it a deal that you don't talk

38:30

about her, that you will find other

38:32

ways to connect with each other that don't

38:34

involve talking about her. And she's the

38:36

glue. Yeah. I

38:39

think that's a good idea. And

38:41

she may resist not being

38:43

the glue, just so you know, kids

38:45

get used to being the glue. And

38:48

so they sometimes potentially on

38:50

purpose put themselves in the

38:52

center because they don't really trust that

38:54

their parents will find a way to each

38:56

other if they don't. bring them there. So

38:59

you may need to reassure her that you

39:01

can find your way to each other and

39:03

she can go and be another lesson. That's

39:06

very insightful. I hadn't thought about

39:08

it that way before. I

39:11

like it. And then

39:13

if your daughter stepped out

39:15

of the middle, what

39:18

takes its place? What

39:20

would happen, for example, if

39:22

you went to the

39:25

shop when he's in the shop? and

39:27

just sat there and whatever. What

39:30

if you had dinner with her first, and

39:32

then you went and brought dinner in his shop,

39:34

and you just ate a picnic together in

39:36

the shop? I mean,

39:38

it's about changing the social, the

39:41

emotional, and the physical

39:43

configurations. It's

39:45

not in that order, but it involves

39:47

all levels, because...

39:51

made a beautiful distinction. We can be

39:53

very sexual and we are intimate there,

39:55

but there is a level of connection

39:57

between the two of you, a level

40:00

of emotional threading that is

40:02

kind of has leaked out

40:04

of the relationship. And

40:06

we are brought together

40:08

in our worry or

40:11

our arguments with our daughter. If

40:14

I asked your older daughter, why did

40:16

she become immediate? What would she say?

40:18

because her sister wasn't always a teenager.

40:20

So this goes back longer. Yeah.

40:26

I don't know if I can

40:28

answer that honestly. I mean, I can

40:30

give you my opinion about what

40:32

I see. That's all we have. But

40:34

I think that my

40:36

husband has been struggling for

40:39

a while and unhappy. And

40:41

I think I'm

40:44

trying to reframe it now with the information that

40:46

you've given me. But I

40:48

think I tended to

40:50

get annoyed with him because

40:52

it looked to me like a lot of

40:54

him centering himself. And I

40:56

was struggling to take care of my

40:58

younger daughter or struggling with other

41:00

things. And so I think she

41:02

felt like she needed to step

41:04

in and take care of him

41:06

and keep him as part of the

41:08

family. Make sure

41:10

he felt like somebody understood

41:12

him. And

41:15

so they have a strong alliance together? They

41:18

do. They do. Yeah.

41:21

I would say that. So

41:24

she would

41:27

lift him up so

41:29

that he wouldn't get too down, too

41:31

depressed, too passive? I

41:35

think so. In small

41:37

ways. But I think that

41:39

that's sort of what she

41:42

would do. She was also... trying

41:44

to keep the peace, you know,

41:46

when we were all together.

41:48

So she would make sure

41:50

that he had someone listening

41:52

to him when maybe the other

41:54

two of us were rolling our

41:56

eyes or just not engaged. So

42:01

you and your young one have an

42:03

alliance except that she says the things

42:05

that you think but don't say. And

42:10

worse. I

42:12

wouldn't say that the things

42:14

that she says necessarily represent

42:16

me, but she definitely is

42:18

not afraid to call him

42:21

out in ways that I

42:23

don't think are necessary, but maybe they

42:25

are necessary and she's doing it for

42:27

me. I

42:29

don't know. So

42:31

if I hear what you say

42:34

is instead of trying to be the

42:36

conciliatory, it

42:38

may be that I need to

42:40

take on me, that which

42:42

is mine, so

42:45

that it doesn't filter onto her. Because

42:50

part of why her intensity is

42:52

so high is because she's

42:54

expressing both her feelings and mine.

42:56

She's doing the job of

42:58

two. I think

43:02

I've been trying to keep the peace

43:04

at all costs and it's been causing

43:06

the opposite. No, you're not

43:08

keeping any peace at all. Every time somebody

43:10

talks to you about how they feel, you're trying

43:12

to defend the other. Yeah. So

43:15

that's a triangulation. Does it work? No.

43:17

I say I'm so angry at them

43:19

and you say, but you need to

43:21

understand them. I need you to understand

43:24

why I'm angry at them. And

43:26

you can understand them why they're angry at

43:28

me. But if every time you take

43:30

the position of the absent third, you're

43:34

fostering the split. Yeah.

43:38

And especially with her, she

43:41

will then end up expressing

43:43

the spoken and unspoken intensity of

43:45

both people's feelings, yours and

43:47

hers. So

43:49

I need to be more present with

43:52

my piece of

43:54

the conversation. I mean, if

43:56

you roll your eyes, you have more than

43:58

just that. That's true. Your

44:00

older daughter is able to be compassionate with

44:02

him and you are annoyed. Sometimes.

44:05

Yes. Yes. Of course,

44:08

not always. And there's

44:10

more to the story than

44:12

just this. We're doing

44:14

a little micro surgery here,

44:16

but it's all triangular, is

44:18

what I'm saying. And there

44:20

is what people are

44:22

picking up on their feelings, but

44:25

also on the unspoken and

44:27

disavowed feelings of the other,

44:29

which they then bring into their

44:31

own psyche. And

44:36

in the end, each of the

44:38

three of you feels very alone. Your

44:42

husband feels alone because he feels

44:44

that all of them except

44:46

for his older daughter, but the

44:48

other two are in collusion, that

44:51

you don't support him, that you

44:53

always defend her. She knows

44:55

that you always defend him. But on

44:57

some level, she knows that she is

44:59

also speaking for you. The

45:01

older one wonders, can I have

45:03

a life away from the family?

45:06

Because she, like you, worries that they're

45:08

going to fall apart without my

45:10

skillful mediation. And

45:12

you think you're trying to make these

45:14

people be nicer with each other

45:17

and have more grace. When

45:20

in fact they

45:22

are each thinking that it's

45:24

the other person who is doing

45:26

it all to them. Yeah.

45:32

So, how do you

45:34

start extricating? I

45:38

think writing the letter that you suggested, I'm

45:41

excited about that

45:43

idea. We

45:45

already do some

45:47

creative movement around dinner

45:49

time, but I think

45:51

just reframing in my

45:53

mind that it's not my

45:55

job to make the

45:57

two of them be friends

46:00

and to refined that

46:02

connection with my husband

46:04

so that we

46:06

can model for my daughter

46:08

but also for ourselves have that

46:10

emotional connection and maybe we'll

46:13

be more on the same page

46:15

anyway about a lot of these things

46:17

that become an

46:19

issue. Is

46:21

that a good place to start? I

46:23

think so. I

46:26

think so. Thank you for helping me

46:28

untangle all of this. This

46:46

was an Aster calling, a one

46:48

-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from

46:50

two points somewhere in the world. If

46:53

you have a question you'd like to explore

46:55

with Aster, could be answered in a 40 or

46:57

a 50 -minute phone call, send a

46:59

voice message, and Aster might just call you.

47:02

Send your question

47:04

to producer at

47:06

Asterparrel.com. Where should we

47:08

begin with Asterparrel is produced by

47:10

Magnificent Noise. We're part of

47:12

the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership

47:14

with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our

47:17

production staff includes Eric

47:19

Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi,

47:21

Kristen Muller, and Julian

47:23

Hatt. Original Music, an

47:25

additional production by Paul Schneider. And

47:28

the executive producers of Where Should

47:30

We Begin, are Esther Perrell and Jesse

47:32

Baker. We'd also like to

47:34

thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice

47:36

Miller, and Jack Saul.