0:00

Many times I

0:02

say, you should have a conversation

0:05

about that. Have you spoken to this person

0:07

about this? And what

0:10

stands out is how difficult

0:12

some conversations feel.

0:15

There is such charge around them. There's

0:17

a sense that they will derail, that they

0:19

will unleash anger, that

0:22

they will be filled with

0:24

misunderstandings, with assumptions. And

0:27

as we are going into the holiday

0:29

season, and we're going to be with a

0:31

lot of close family members

0:33

and friends and loved ones and

0:35

people with whom we have agreements

0:38

and disagreements about a lot of

0:40

issues, this question

0:42

about how we have difficult

0:44

conversations, I want to explore it

0:46

with you. I want to have a series of sessions, each

0:49

one looking at a difficult

0:51

conversation. And so I

0:53

hope that on the podcast we can

0:56

have some of these conversations that

0:59

we can't have at a dinner table, or

1:01

that we've been wanting or

1:04

imagining or fantasizing. So

1:06

some of these conversations can almost serve

1:08

to you as role play. Let's

1:11

try it out in this imaginary

1:14

sphere, in this virtual

1:17

space called the Where Should We

1:19

Begin podcast, and see where

1:21

they take us, and then see

1:23

if they can be transferred in

1:26

real life. In

1:35

this following session, we discuss

1:39

sexual assault, and

1:41

I want you to know this before you listen.

1:47

Hello, Estelle. I'd

1:49

love to have a conversation with you

1:52

about the intersectionality

1:54

of culture, faith, community,

1:57

sexuality, fantasy, and

1:59

romance. romanticization. My

2:02

very existence feels as though

2:04

I'm sitting on a fault

2:06

line and it feels like

2:09

staying atop it means that there is

2:11

the threat of it crumbling at any

2:13

given moment. I'm

2:16

a gay Muslim man with

2:18

a deep-rooted connection to my

2:20

culture, traditions, and Arab legacy.

2:23

I value my religion, I practice

2:26

my faith regularly, I feel

2:28

spiritually connected to God, and

2:30

I align my life to the values embedded

2:33

in my faith. The gay

2:35

element within religion is a tale as

2:37

old as time, but my main point

2:39

of contention isn't necessarily in

2:41

accepting myself within the faith, but

2:44

rather in finding a suitable

2:46

partner for myself when I

2:49

not only want a man of God, but I

2:52

also want a court within the

2:54

confines of a more modest

2:57

and traditional approach, one

3:00

that emphasizes chastity until marriage.

3:03

The polar opposites of extreme

3:05

secularism in the US, in

3:08

the US gay community specifically,

3:10

and extreme homophobia within the

3:12

Muslim-American community, it's

3:15

been exhausting to exist

3:17

in. It feels like

3:19

I'm caught in a hurricane on

3:21

an uncharted island with no one but

3:23

myself to weather that storm. I

3:26

wonder sometimes what the point is to

3:28

keep weathering if there's

3:30

no visible population to even

3:32

fight for. And romance seems like

3:34

the only source of depression

3:37

for me in my life, and

3:40

it's sent me to dark places,

3:43

and having ideas

3:45

of my fantasy partner is

3:48

really what keeps me going and praying for

3:50

that final piece of the

3:52

puzzle. I want to get

3:54

out of my head and into reality where perhaps

3:57

my partner does exist. I'd

4:00

love to have that conversation with you. Support

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5:40

So here we are to have this

5:42

conversation. Here we are. Anything

5:44

you want to add, change? No,

5:47

I think those are pretty much

5:49

the main pinpoints for me. But I

5:51

want to really understand and

5:53

address. So put one forward as

5:57

a starting point for today. Let's

6:00

start with finding a

6:03

romantic partner that has similar beliefs

6:05

to me, or that aligns. And

6:09

that aligns in wanting

6:12

chastity till marriage,

6:15

has a profound belief in God. Correct.

6:18

It's Muslim. Preferably,

6:20

yes. And is open about it.

6:24

Yes, absolutely. Are

6:26

you out? Yes, I am out. I

6:28

want somebody who is also out. To

6:31

their family as well. Right. I

6:34

am out to my friends and family. Not

6:37

too many people in my religious

6:40

community and not to the elders, but

6:42

my family knows, my friends know,

6:45

and co-workers, anyone

6:48

who knows me knows. Your imam?

6:50

But any... Well,

6:54

my imam is actually my dad.

6:57

So, he is one

6:59

of the imams in our local Muslim

7:01

community. So, it was a little

7:04

challenging when I was trying

7:07

to navigate that growing up. So,

7:09

yeah, we are the imams

7:12

children. Okay. Well,

7:15

he is your dad, he is your imam,

7:17

and he is your guide and

7:20

teacher. What

7:22

has he said? Because far

7:24

from me to compete with the imam. You

7:28

know, his response has been interesting.

7:32

I would say overall, it's negative.

7:35

So, his main belief is that

7:39

being gay is not a sin,

7:41

but having a gay

7:45

life would be. Meaning, finding a

7:47

partner in any way would

7:49

be the sinful part. He

7:52

made it clear that he didn't want anything

7:55

to do with me

7:57

if I ever came out publicly. was

8:00

the same with my mom. I

8:02

wouldn't say they were violent about

8:04

it. They did try to approach it

8:08

with some compassion. And they were like, hey,

8:10

we want the best for you. And the

8:13

best would be to never say anything. So

8:17

I would say overall negative,

8:19

but I'm still really glad that I

8:21

told them. And they know. So

8:28

your question or

8:31

your bind, as I just

8:33

heard it, is not

8:35

about how do I meet

8:37

another man of faith, Muslim,

8:40

chaste, et cetera. But

8:43

that if I was to meet that man,

8:45

I would lose my

8:47

father. Mm. That's

8:53

a different bind. Right.

8:58

Right what? It's

9:01

not as, I

9:04

guess, simple as I thought. No.

9:08

I never felt like that was, it

9:11

was that specifically. I'm

9:15

seeing kind of how they connect now.

9:18

You feeling it? Yeah,

9:21

when you said, when you finished your sentence,

9:24

I felt a happiness in my

9:26

stomach. I saw that, even

9:29

through the screen. And

9:32

I even had

9:34

a wicked thought that in

9:36

a crazy way, you're

9:39

blessed not to find your

9:41

romantic partner upon whom you've

9:43

put impossible demands.

9:46

He needs to be out, but

9:49

he needs to be chaste, and

9:52

he needs to be of deep faith, and,

9:54

and, and, and. And it's

9:56

set up in such a way that you want the

9:59

time. It's most impossible to meet

10:01

him, but it's a

10:03

blessing that you don't meet him, because as

10:06

long as you don't meet him, you don't

10:08

lose your dad and

10:10

maybe your mom. This

10:14

is maybe less a

10:16

romantic struggle than a loyalty point,

10:19

and you don't want to lose your dad who

10:22

loves you deeply and whom you love deeply,

10:24

but he can't for the life of himself begin

10:26

to imagine that he has a gay

10:29

son and living a gay

10:32

life. So you

10:34

are doing exactly what he said. I

10:36

don't mind you being gay, but you can't live

10:38

a gay lifestyle. That's what you're doing.

10:41

Right. On

10:45

the one hand, you're holding on to him, and

10:47

on the other hand, you're

10:49

feeling what on the inside? I'm

10:53

feeling very lonely. I

10:56

don't feel like I

10:58

have any anchor. I don't feel

11:00

like I truly belong anywhere. I'm

11:02

just in isolation. That's really what

11:04

it feels like. To

11:06

be able to exist

11:08

in all of these worlds is on

11:12

my own with no one around me. It's

11:15

really sad. It's

11:18

turbulent, but it's also sad. And

11:21

it's lifeless. Oh, absolutely. That's a

11:23

great word for it. It does feel

11:25

lifeless. And have you had

11:27

that conversation ever with him? What

11:31

does he suggest? No,

11:34

I haven't. We

11:36

only had that one conversation when

11:39

I initially told him. That

11:42

was when I was in college.

11:44

I want to say seven or so

11:47

years ago. So

11:49

that's seven years of lifelessness. Wow.

11:55

Who is your person

11:57

in the family or in the

11:59

community? with

12:01

whom you can

12:04

talk about this. Anyone?

12:08

And my family, no. Do

12:11

you know any others? I

12:14

have here and there. I do

12:16

have one friend in another state. Gay,

12:18

Muslim? Yes, she is. I do

12:21

confide in her a lot. I try to

12:24

visit her often. But

12:27

I don't have anyone that's

12:29

close by in proximity or that

12:31

I can rely

12:33

on consistently. I

12:35

don't really. I kind of save everything. I bundle

12:38

it up until I get to talk to her

12:40

at some point. It's

12:44

so isolating. My heart goes

12:46

out to you. Interestingly,

12:50

I'm thinking about a film.

12:53

It's called Trembling Before God. But

12:56

interestingly, it's about Orthodox

12:59

Jewish queer people.

13:02

Different religion, but

13:04

not that far. Same

13:07

God. Same God. Sometimes

13:10

same people too. And

13:14

it's an incredible documentary. It's

13:16

not recent. In

13:18

a strange way, you will

13:20

have an experience of community

13:24

by listening to

13:26

these multiple people of

13:28

faith who

13:31

are all struggling with the silence,

13:33

the secret, the

13:36

exclusion, the double life, the

13:40

shame, the family, mornings,

13:45

etc. And they all tremble before God.

13:49

They all know who they are and they

13:52

all know who they're supposed to be. And

13:56

it's excruciating. But

13:59

your dilemma is not that bad. It's not about finding

14:01

somebody. Because

14:03

in an interesting way, your life is set

14:05

up in a way where you're not meant

14:07

to find that somebody, because

14:09

the price you would have to pay is

14:12

unbearable. And

14:18

I stand humble before you. It's

14:30

okay. You

14:34

know, when you said that,

14:36

the irony about my

14:39

favorite movie growing up was The Little

14:41

Mermaid, and that's exactly what I thought

14:43

of now. Tell

14:48

me more. I

14:50

mean, the price that Ariel had

14:52

to pay for a life that

14:54

she wanted was, she completely

14:56

gave up her whole species. I

15:02

can't fathom doing that in my own life,

15:04

either. We

15:12

have to take a brief break, so

15:15

stay with us, and let's see where this

15:17

goes. Support

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of the show. We

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sort through thousands of applicants

18:51

each year to pick

18:53

the stories that we share with you.

18:56

And the conversations that I have

18:58

with couples start off as three

19:01

hour sessions. And then we thoughtfully

19:03

edit them to one

19:05

hour and then go back and

19:08

listen to them at the notes. And

19:11

sometimes even a critique of the session.

19:13

It's kind of what is in

19:15

my head as I listen to

19:17

the session that I didn't

19:19

say in the session. We

19:21

create original music and sound design to

19:24

bring the sessions to life. Where

19:26

Should We Begin involves a whole team

19:29

who have been there since the beginning

19:31

with me to bring my office to

19:33

you. It's about eight years

19:36

that we are telling the stories

19:38

of raw, intimate

19:40

encounter between people that you

19:42

are invited to listen in,

19:44

like a fly on the wall. It's

19:47

an expensive and quite time consuming

19:49

effort to create Where Should We

19:51

Begin, and which we

19:53

gladly undertake because you tell

19:55

us time and again

19:58

how valuable these conversations If

44:00

I was religious enough, I would,

44:03

if I was as upstanding as

44:06

I would like to be or think

44:09

I should be, I would what? I

44:13

would be able to uphold

44:15

my religious values as a gay man the same

44:18

way I would have if I was straight. And

44:23

given that I am not, then

44:26

what? Given that

44:28

I'm not, I have to try harder. Okay.

44:33

So if I try harder, I don't have to

44:35

ask a question about how I meet my partner.

44:39

What is that? Can you elaborate

44:41

on that? Yes. If

44:43

I try harder, it

44:45

means that my being

44:47

a queer man

44:50

is not meant to be a

44:52

part of my life in active form. Maybe

44:58

in yearning, longing, fantasy,

45:01

imagination, but

45:04

not in active form,

45:07

in reality. So

45:13

everything inside of me yearns

45:15

to meet someone, and

45:17

every other part inside of me is making

45:20

sure that that doesn't happen. So

45:23

that I can prove my

45:25

devoutness. Yeah.

45:28

I do see that. Say

45:31

it in your own words. I

45:35

exist in an environment that makes

45:38

it almost impossible to meet

45:40

someone, but my

45:42

imagination keeps that possibility alive.

45:47

I have different departments inside of me. I

45:51

have the imaginative department, but I also

45:53

have the censorship bureau. My

45:58

imagination keeps seeing. me meet people

46:02

because it's like a lifeline for me to

46:05

know that there is hope and that love exists for

46:07

me. But

46:10

my censorship bureau makes

46:12

sure that I don't ever really meet somebody

46:15

so that I can maintain my

46:18

devoutness and prove to myself

46:21

and my family that

46:24

I am worthy of being the first born Muslim

46:26

son. I

46:29

never thought of having a censorship

46:33

department. I never

46:35

actively saw that. That

46:38

is such a poignant analogy.

46:40

I mean, we can

46:44

call it a censorship bureau. We

46:46

can call it Hamafi'u Baya. But we

46:48

can also call it a part of

46:50

you that also protects you from

46:54

something that feels the worst thing that could

46:56

happen. It's not just a

46:58

restrictive bureau of censorship.

47:00

It also has a protective element

47:02

to it in its weird

47:05

but very obvious way. It

47:08

does serve a purpose. Yeah, a

47:10

deep purpose. Yeah.

47:16

What's something that we have not touched that

47:18

you would say, oh, I wish I had

47:21

not forgotten that or not left that out. There

47:25

is one thing as

47:27

we were talking, especially

47:30

about the

47:35

not religious enough piece that

47:37

was I'm seeing how it's

47:39

related now. And when you

47:41

talked about, you know,

47:43

that intensity at which I want to adhere

47:47

to my values. The

47:52

reason why my parents

47:54

had a

47:57

more positive reaction than a

48:00

traditional immigrant Muslim family is

48:02

because part of their

48:05

reasoning for why I am

48:07

gay is because of sexual

48:09

assault that happened as a child.

48:13

And so they know that that happened to me and

48:18

they attribute this to that

48:20

that trauma. There is some

48:22

sympathy on their end because

48:25

of that. And

48:27

when we were talking about me

48:30

wanting to really kind

48:33

of prove the religiosity and

48:37

adhere strictly, that did

48:40

come up for me in my

48:42

head. And

48:44

how we kind of talked about

48:46

having a pure love, I

48:49

do feel like part of it is

48:51

probably related. Can you

48:53

tell me or you either tell

48:55

me how or I tell you

48:57

what I'm guessing? In

49:04

surviving that experience, I did

49:07

feel like I was tainted

49:10

somehow. Yes. Okay. I

49:13

still sometimes feel that way. I

49:17

don't feel like I was able to get

49:20

justice from that. And

49:23

I feel like if in my now

49:26

in adulthood, if

49:29

I am able to have a

49:31

marriage or meet somebody and

49:33

have a more traditional

49:35

and chase

49:37

sexual life until I'm married, it

49:40

would feel like it would undo

49:44

the wrong in

49:46

a way, even though it's unrelated. Tell

49:51

me if I if I hear you well, both

49:56

you and your parents. Bring

50:00

compassion to yourself through

50:04

this experience. It

50:07

gives it a framework. Do

50:10

they know who it was and what it was?

50:12

They do know who it was, yeah. If

50:15

I find the love

50:17

I imagine, if

50:19

I experienced

50:22

the intimacy and

50:24

the cherishing that I imagine, I will know that

50:26

this person didn't

50:32

take the best of me, that

50:34

I'm lovable, worthy, and

50:37

that I didn't just

50:39

survive, but I

50:42

revived. Am I

50:44

hearing you? Yeah, go

50:47

on. Hmm. So

50:54

maybe this is not about am I religious

50:56

enough? I mean, that may

50:58

be a question you have too, but

51:00

this is am

51:03

I whole enough? Am

51:05

I not broken? In

51:08

a way, my parents

51:10

find compassion for me, but in my

51:12

brokenness, and it's

51:15

better than nothing, but it

51:18

kind of confirms my brokenness. Right.

51:21

And so while that works for them, or

51:23

for my relationship with them, when

51:26

it comes to me, what I wanna

51:28

know is that I'm whole and I'm not

51:30

broken, and this is not the determining event

51:33

of my life. And I'm saying

51:35

this without knowing anything of what happened to you.

51:37

But just tell me something, was it once or

51:40

multiple? It was once. And

51:43

when I say I made a lot

51:45

of sacrifices for them, I

51:50

was instructed not to say anything because

51:53

it would ruin our reputation. And

51:56

so no police reports

51:58

were made, nothing. And

52:00

then now, having grown up, I do kind

52:02

of wish that we did. You

52:05

know, I made the sacrifice for them.

52:09

They know? I don't think so. I

52:12

never told them that. That's

52:15

what you mean by the sacrifices that

52:18

are expected but are not really

52:21

made explicit. Yes. You

52:24

carry so much. You

52:31

carry secrets. You

52:34

carry rape. You

52:36

carry the unspoken. You

52:39

carry shame. You

52:41

carry love. You carry

52:43

the loneliness of not being touched enough.

52:47

You carry the burden of

52:49

a firstborn son. You

52:51

carry the burden or the responsibility

52:55

of the son of the

52:57

Imam, of the holy man. And

53:00

how could you desecrate that? You

53:02

carry your unfulfilled longings and

53:04

unmet wishes. I

53:07

have deep respect for you. I

53:11

appreciate that. And

53:17

thank you for telling me. Thank

53:21

you for listening. And

53:23

also for telling me the last

53:25

part, so that

53:27

you didn't make a sacrifice. Finish

53:31

the sentence. So

53:36

that it wasn't

53:38

my, I didn't make a sacrifice, then

53:41

it wasn't just my

53:44

secret to hold. If

53:48

we spoke longer, I would start to ask

53:50

more questions. That

53:52

I don't want to open up a can, that

53:55

I won't be able to close. So

53:58

I think. You

54:01

let me in a little bit and that's fine. Okay.

54:06

Thank you so much. Thank you

54:09

for the call. I really appreciate it. The

54:21

conversation you just heard is

54:24

a one-time session. It's a

54:27

45-minute conversation, maybe an hour. But

54:30

so much happens afterwards. And

54:32

so I am always eager

54:35

to hear the follow-up, the

54:37

update, and to do a

54:39

pulse check. What landed? What did people

54:41

keep? What was useful? Where did it

54:44

take them? What changed? It's

54:46

a one session, so one has to

54:48

be humble about what can be achieved.

54:50

But sometimes a one session actually opens

54:53

up a lot of new avenues

54:56

and new stories. So

54:58

I did receive a very beautiful

55:00

update from him. And if you want to

55:02

know about this follow-up

55:05

or any other sessions follow-up, you

55:08

can hear it all on my

55:10

office hours on my Apple subscriptions. This

55:17

was an Ester calling, a one-time intervention

55:19

phone call, recorded remotely from two points

55:21

somewhere in the world. If

55:24

you have a question you'd like to explore with Ester, or

55:27

insert in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send

55:30

her a voice message and Ester might just call you. Send

55:33

your question to producer

55:35

at esterparal.com. Where

55:38

should we begin with Esterparal is produced

55:40

by Magnificent Noise. We're part

55:42

of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in

55:45

partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our

55:48

production staff includes Eric Newsom,

55:50

Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen

55:52

Muller, and Julian Atten. Original

55:55

music and additional production by Paul

55:57

Schneider. And the executive

55:59

producers... of where should we begin are

56:01

Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd

56:04

also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary

56:06

Alice Miller, and Jack Sall. Hey,

56:15

it's Scott Galloway, and on our podcast Pivot,

56:18

we are bringing you a special series about

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the basics of artificial intelligence. We're answering all

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And to help us out, we are joined

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by Kylie Robeson, the senior AI reporter for

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