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2:27

Last May I

2:29

got a call from someone that

2:31

told me her friend had been

2:33

in a relationship with my partner

2:35

for two years but I had

2:38

absolutely no idea and then

2:40

I also found out he had a child 14 years

2:43

old I had no idea about July 24th

2:49

they got another call. Hey I've been

2:51

friends with your partner and

2:53

actually been sleeping with him. Both

2:56

of them were friends that he had that had no idea that he

2:58

had a family. Never told them that

3:00

he had a family so it was

3:02

just like beyond. She's

3:05

coming in on the

3:07

heels of yet another revelation

3:10

of yet another affair after

3:13

having found out that there was a

3:15

14 year old son that

3:17

she never knew about that her partner had.

3:20

I mean I'm so sad and angry

3:23

just the level of humiliation like feeling

3:25

like so like again like are

3:28

you kidding me like am I an idiot like

3:30

am I totally blind or like I need

3:33

somebody else like tell me if I am

3:35

delusional. She's

3:37

bereft she's in crisis

3:40

she thinks they are in crisis

3:42

there's imminent decisions to be made and

3:46

there's a sense of urgency about

3:49

what has just been revealed. He

3:53

says none of this. I

3:55

think we had a lot of trust issues. I'd

3:58

want to work on Being

4:01

more vulnerable, I feel like I've

4:03

been in the Delta since I was like 13, 14. Just

4:07

because that's kind of how I was raised. I've always

4:09

had a life of hiding. Nobody

4:12

knows anything about me because I don't

4:14

trust anybody. And sometimes that gets really hard.

4:17

I don't even know how to explain it. I

4:21

struggle with it. And

4:23

it's kind of a worry because I don't want to

4:25

end with my partner. How

4:29

can you have one person talk

4:31

about so many shattering revelations where

4:34

the other person doesn't

4:36

even mention them? It was

4:38

like, what is this session going to be about? And

4:42

if he doesn't mention it, can he

4:44

even acknowledge it? If

4:46

he can even acknowledge it, can he express any

4:49

sense of remorse for it? I mean, where is

4:51

he at? And

4:53

what instantly becomes clear is that

4:55

as I begin to meet him,

4:57

I enter a web of

5:00

secrets, a veiled

5:02

reality where no two pieces of

5:04

his life have any contact with

5:06

each other. So he

5:08

keeps it all in little pockets,

5:12

hidden from everywhere. Nobody

5:14

knows the next person he knows. I

5:19

have to say that this

5:21

was a very intense experience for

5:24

me to speak with someone who

5:27

showed such a way of living as a ghost

5:29

in his own life. What

5:38

would you like us to

5:40

do here? What would make this

5:43

a useful conversation, a helpful

5:45

conversation? I guess

5:47

maybe clarity on some

5:50

things, to understand

5:52

a little bit more than I did

5:54

when I got here. And

5:56

I would like more clarity

5:58

on... relationships,

6:01

I guess past relationships,

6:05

like how they affect my calling relationship,

6:09

my parents' relationship that in

6:12

turn affects my relationship. What's

6:15

something specific from

6:18

your family relationships that you say, that

6:21

thing has gone with me? A

6:26

lot of selfishness,

6:30

I guess. That's

6:32

a big word. Who

6:34

was the master of selfishness at home? Everybody

6:38

probably. Can you give me a sense? Yeah,

6:41

my dad was on his own since he was

6:44

a teenager, since he was like 14. Can't

6:47

read or write. He

6:49

was smart, he was handy, and

6:51

then my mom worked in a bank and

6:54

my mother was like business. She

6:57

was like high up in the bank for a very

6:59

long time. So they were like complete opposites. But

7:02

my dad's kind of selfishness was more

7:04

of, I don't want to go back to

7:06

ever being poor again. So

7:08

I have to kind of hoard everything, and

7:10

it doesn't matter if anybody needs something. Not

7:13

like if you want something, but if you need something. My

7:17

mother would have to go, you need to give me

7:19

money for it so I can get school stuff. And

7:22

I think in turn

7:24

that I grew up a lot on my own. I

7:27

had my parents, I had both my parents, until

7:30

I was an adult. But I did a lot

7:33

of things on my own. Tell

7:35

me if I hear this accurately.

7:39

I learned to take care of

7:41

myself. They

7:44

were there, but I was on my own. But

7:48

neither did they offer

7:50

me an ear to my needs. And

7:55

neither did I learn how to listen to the

7:57

needs of others, especially of myself.

8:00

my partner here? Yeah,

8:02

yeah, and I'm sure of

8:04

a lot of people. I know

8:06

what I need to do, but I

8:08

know what to do when you need something from

8:10

me. Oh yeah, correct.

8:13

Or how to ask for it if

8:16

I do need something. Right. If I

8:18

need to move a

8:20

sofa, or somebody just try to

8:22

figure it out on my own because I

8:25

could probably ask somebody, but.

8:27

I don't. I don't. Because. Doesn't

8:30

even occur to me. Well

8:33

yeah, they're probably busy. They're gonna say no

8:35

anyway, so I'm not gonna. So you internalized

8:38

your dad's voice. They're gonna

8:40

say no anyway, so why don't they? They're gonna say no

8:42

anyway, so I'll just, I'll figure it out. Okay. So

8:45

refuse help though, too. Oh yeah, I guess

8:47

so. It's not, I mean, I'm going

8:50

with my refuse. You

8:53

just added something. Not only do you

8:55

not ask for help, but you refuse

8:57

it. So

8:59

you're not say when you're upset, or when you're

9:01

mad, or when you're frustrated, or when you're hurt.

9:04

That's part of the, you have

9:07

to handle everything yourself. Yeah, I'm kind of just the

9:09

same all the time. No,

9:11

you're the same. She is mad, like I'm not,

9:13

like I don't get excited about things. Like,

9:16

I'm just like, ah, you know. It

9:18

was okay, it was good. I don't

9:20

want to get too excited to

9:23

come down from being excited. So

9:25

if I can just kind of stay in the middle. That's

9:28

an amazing strategy. So

9:31

I don't let myself get too

9:33

excited, neither on the

9:35

positive side nor on the negative

9:37

side. So I can

9:40

stay in the middle

9:42

and keep things in control, and not

9:44

get too hurt or too disappointed, or

9:47

too shaken out of my boots. Yeah.

9:53

So you're a master compartmentalizer.

9:56

Sometimes I have to be, and I guess

9:58

the times when I'm... I shouldn't be, I still

10:02

am. Right, that is the

10:04

essence. Nobody becomes a

10:06

master at something without thinking

10:08

that they have a good reason. But then

10:10

they make the reason everywhere

10:13

and so they begin to have the

10:15

same behavior even when it's not necessary.

10:20

Can I ask you where are some

10:22

particular places where you've compartmentalized?

10:26

Work, which I guess

10:28

that makes me just a little better at my job sometimes

10:30

because I can do that. Work

10:33

how soon? Just work like

10:35

on, you know, we have like dead

10:37

bodies and stuff

10:40

and big fires and like I

10:42

don't get too like jacked

10:45

up off it. Fire's over, fire's over.

10:48

Some guys like I want to be up for 15 hours now. So

10:52

the adrenaline's still going on. Yeah, it's over,

10:55

it's over. Bad

10:58

car accidents and stuff like that. I

11:03

did it in my family. I

11:05

have an older son that

11:07

was kind of a separate. I

11:10

just learned about him a year ago, he's 14. Yeah.

11:13

Mm-hmm. So

11:15

that's compartmentalized and

11:18

the other relationships you've had. Yeah,

11:23

I've always had multiple something. Nothing's

11:28

ever been together.

11:30

It's multiple women or multiple

11:33

cars? Everything. Everything.

11:35

Yeah, work life, outer

11:37

work life, work friends, outer work friends.

11:41

Nobody knows each other,

11:43

nobody knows anything. And

11:46

the multiple friends are

11:48

known to her, yes? She

11:51

knows some of my friends. Some

11:53

of them, well then I learned these two

11:56

people were both friends that had no idea that

11:58

we existed, that he had a family, not. He

12:00

said not one word so I didn't know these

12:02

people existed and they didn't know

12:04

we existed These people I

12:07

known for years Their

12:10

friends their lovers their what they

12:12

were just friends for the

12:14

very long time and Then

12:17

yeah, there was two

12:20

different situations a year apart from each other

12:23

and they became lovers. Yeah, yes, that's

12:25

true Yes Okay

12:31

I When I

12:33

start to work with couples who

12:36

come in in the immediate

12:38

aftermath of the crisis of an affair

12:40

I always think how do

12:42

I create a container that

12:45

can hold two? very

12:47

very different experiences of

12:49

the same thing and

12:53

that means what he did to her and

12:56

then also what it meant for him and and

12:59

This one starts to feel like it's

13:01

gonna be a hard one to hold

13:03

because there's so much after

13:06

talking with him about his

13:08

family of origin about how

13:12

he equates the challenges from

13:14

his Childhood as the

13:16

strengths at his job about

13:20

some of the secrets that have

13:22

trickled out I Start

13:24

to feel like we at least have

13:26

now an agreement about some of the

13:29

basic facts So

13:31

now I want to hear from her Thank

13:39

you That was

13:41

a long intro and I

13:44

would just love to bring you into the

13:46

conversation Do you

13:48

hear him often speak like that? A

13:51

little bit when I first found out

13:53

about all of this well the first

13:55

time When

13:57

I learned about this friend and his

13:59

son on the same day. And

14:02

this woman is the mother of the

14:04

child? No. So there

14:06

is yet another person? The

14:08

mother of the child was an ex

14:10

from a long time ago. They got

14:12

together apparently one time while we

14:15

were on a break 15 years

14:17

ago. How long have you been together?

14:20

We met over 20 years ago,

14:22

but it's been off

14:24

and on for a long time. But

14:28

I... Throughout or only in the first

14:30

years? The first few years were definitely off

14:32

and on. And then I'm... The

14:34

last 14 years have

14:37

been pretty steady except for... It

14:40

was a brief period of time. Maybe

14:43

seven years ago or something where we were broken up

14:45

for a little bit. Yeah,

14:47

that's... That's

14:49

right. So when that

14:51

happened last year and my everything came

14:53

shattering down, I

14:56

learned about that he had

14:58

this other life of people.

15:01

He didn't talk about us at all.

15:03

This woman had no idea. This friend thought

15:05

she was friends with him for a while. No idea that we

15:07

existed. It was a

15:09

terrible time and we had some conversations where it

15:12

seemed like he was opening up. We were

15:14

acknowledging all the compartmentalizing and...

15:18

How did you find out if I missed? I got a

15:20

call when I was with... We were sitting with our family

15:22

on a Sunday morning around 9 o'clock. Someone called me. I

15:24

said, oh, my friend's been in a relationship. Oh, and by

15:26

the way, do you know he has a 14-year-old son? I

15:30

was like, no. And

15:32

then he admitted it. Well, admitted the child. I was...

15:35

We were with our children. I had to like...

15:37

It was horrible. And

15:40

then... Like I

15:42

came home to pictures on my doorstep. She

15:44

had left. She started emailing me. It was

15:48

awful. Pictures

15:50

of them. Yeah. To

15:52

show to you that they had a relationship. Yeah,

15:56

she wanted to... Which you did not know. No, until the day

15:58

before. And she did not know about it. to

16:00

you. Right. We went

16:02

to started going to couples therapy. Didn't

16:06

really feel like it was going anywhere but I thought we

16:08

had some good conversations and I felt really

16:10

I was really in a lot of pain but I

16:12

felt like he was doing the right thing. I was

16:15

not suspicious for a second

16:18

until four weeks ago where I get

16:20

another phone call. I just got

16:22

off to work. I had a call from a

16:25

number and I immediately felt like dread answered the

16:27

phone. Hi I'm so-and-so

16:29

I'm I've been in

16:31

a relationship for the last you know

16:33

off and on and I was like wait

16:35

what is my friend but we've been sleeping down

16:38

like wait a second. We've

16:41

been sleeping together it turns out they had when

16:43

was the last time and I found it it

16:45

was the day before we went on a trip

16:47

it was just and I immediately

16:49

just had to told the work I had an emergency and

16:51

left and he left work and I just got

16:53

home and started screaming. So

16:57

it turns out he almost immediately started doing the exact

16:59

same thing. It was the same story. Another unattractive

17:03

single mother with probably

17:05

low self-esteem who would thought he was so nice

17:07

and so wonderful and then she kept calling me

17:09

and I was then I was like oh she's

17:11

trying to tell me how this was meaningful thing

17:13

and this had been going on and then um

17:16

she left a bunch of stuff in

17:18

our driveway pictures and

17:21

cards and was just awful and

17:23

that was like exactly four weeks ago. Oh

17:25

well so you're in

17:27

the thick of this. Yes and I've already been

17:29

through I just feel like completely between

17:32

numb filled with rage

17:34

and very sad. Of course. I'm just

17:38

like blown away you could do this like

17:40

again like blown away like I just feel

17:42

like I'm with a stranger I feel like a sense

17:44

of disgust I've never felt like last year

17:47

I felt hopeful now I'm just like I don't

17:49

know who you are I

17:51

don't know what's going on. I'm

17:55

very mad at myself. So

17:57

for not seeing this if you don't

17:59

I'm like, this is insanity. Like, this

18:01

behavior is so insane. Like, this is

18:04

not OK. And he's, I

18:06

know he feels bad. So I'm like, what is,

18:08

like, something is very wrong. There's

18:11

no trust. Like, none. I trust him to take care

18:13

of our children. I don't trust

18:15

him like that

18:17

again. Like, I feel like total fool.

18:21

I haven't told one person about this. I

18:23

can't tell my friends. It's humiliating. I

18:27

feel like we love each other very much. I

18:30

am very afraid of the future. We

18:32

have to figure out, like, the kids in the house.

18:34

And we really, it just doesn't feel

18:37

real. It doesn't even feel like what I want. I,

18:40

yeah, I just feel like I'm going crazy. All

18:42

of this superposition of contradictory feelings

18:45

that just come knocking at you,

18:48

all normal. And

18:50

there for a while, unfortunately. That's why

18:52

it's like, again, like, I already was

18:54

just coming out of it. And then

18:56

you like. And by the way, still

18:58

not about you. I believe

19:01

that. I'm sorry. It

19:03

makes it harder sometimes, but still not

19:05

about you. That

19:08

doesn't mean that you want to live with it.

19:10

Right. And I don't know what you will decide.

19:13

Like, I'm scared. I really don't

19:17

know who he is. Yeah. And

19:20

what he's capable of. No. It's like, did I

19:22

fall in love with a con man? Like, he

19:24

just can make things up. And I

19:27

don't know. He can want to change. But if he can't change,

19:29

then nothing is going to happen. It's

19:31

going to end. It's like, am

19:33

I supposed to just wait here and hope that he doesn't

19:35

do it again? I

19:39

don't know. It's

19:42

very important to lift

19:45

the pressure that

19:47

in this one session, she

19:49

will figure out what she wants to

19:52

do with her life. A

19:55

first session where things are

19:57

being revealed and laid out like.

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