0:00

Recently on Where Should We Begin,

0:03

we've been focusing on

0:05

secrets, the

0:07

stuff we push under the rug, conversations

0:11

that we are loathe to have

0:13

and certainly not in the public

0:15

square, the forbidden, the

0:18

hidden, the obfuscated,

0:20

the unexplored, the unarticulated.

0:24

And one such topic is

0:26

the subject of erotic fantasies.

0:29

Especially erotic fantasies of women. The

0:32

book that very much opened

0:35

up this subject in

0:37

my generation was Nancy Friday, My

0:40

Secret Garden. The book

0:42

that is now on many

0:44

people's shelf is

0:46

by Gillian Anderson, who's

0:49

an award-winning film and

0:51

television and theater actor. But

0:53

she became very much a household

0:56

name in my house for sure,

0:59

when she played sex therapist Dr. Jean

1:01

Melbourne on the Netflix series Sex

1:03

Education. And

1:06

her book is called Want. It's

1:09

an exploration of hundreds of

1:12

anonymous women who have sent

1:14

in the scripts,

1:17

the descriptions of their own

1:20

erotic longings, of their sexual

1:22

imaginings. And

1:25

one of them is actually by

1:27

Gillian Anderson herself. So

1:31

I wanted to have a

1:33

conversation about the power of

1:36

fantasy, the intricacy, the irrationality,

1:39

the secret logic of the erotic

1:41

mind, because it actually

1:43

is one of the

1:46

most fascinating parts of our

1:48

mind and our bodies. That

1:50

is how we conjure up those

1:53

fantasies, those plots,

1:56

those sensations, those

1:58

elixirs. cultural

10:00

imagination. So a lot

10:03

of fantasies, you watch them in movies

10:06

and you say, ah, you don't

10:08

even, it's not consciously, but you

10:10

register. This is a beautiful

10:13

moment where this person experiences something at

10:15

the hands of this other person. Sometimes

10:18

you read and then you realize,

10:20

you know, the next time

10:22

around when you are pleasing yourself, you're

10:24

actually going back to that thing that you

10:26

read back then. Most fantasies

10:29

are discovered, stumbled

10:32

upon or learned.

10:35

What percentage of

10:37

fantasies have roots

10:39

in childhood experience in

10:41

some way? Are most of our fantasies

10:44

linked back to something that's happened,

10:46

either a first love or

10:49

a trauma or a, you

10:51

know, there's many, but I

10:54

don't think it's very broad.

10:56

Yes, you can have experiences

10:59

in childhood of delight, of

11:02

play, and you

11:04

remember of biking, of sitting

11:06

on a horse, of paddling,

11:09

of sitting on your granddad's lap or

11:11

your father's and mother's lap. It's not

11:13

just trauma. But

11:16

for instance, there are a few fantasies or

11:18

at least in the initial submissions, there were

11:20

a few fantasies, women

11:24

imagining having sex while wearing a

11:26

diaper. Yes. Because

11:29

it's been

11:31

20 years, I've been kind

11:33

of tracking this subject, the

11:35

erotic mind, the erotic imagination,

11:38

and it's amazing ability to do

11:40

a lot of things. It's unique

11:43

because most other fantasies,

11:47

if I say I want to go to

11:49

Paris, my fantasies to travel to Paris, I

11:52

would like to make Paris happen. But

11:55

sexual fantasies often

11:57

exist as a

12:00

There's a realm of experience that

12:02

transcends the

12:04

restrictions, the boundaries, your

12:07

sense of self, your self-image,

12:09

your moral and ideological convictions.

12:12

It's the transgressive nature of it

12:15

that is so powerful and

12:18

not your desire to want to experience

12:20

it in reality. Many

12:23

of our fantasies we would never want to

12:25

experience in reality. That's

12:27

the opposite of most other fantasies that

12:30

we have, most other things that we

12:32

imagine. So how is

12:34

it that in our mind

12:37

alone or with someone we

12:39

can create absolute delight and

12:41

flight of fancy about

12:44

things that would make us cringe

12:47

in real life? So I

12:49

guess what I'm understanding is that the

12:52

growth or the healing around

12:54

fantasy is not

12:57

necessarily about finding

12:59

a way to enact what is

13:02

in one's mind. It's more about

13:05

finding a way to learn from,

13:07

as you were saying

13:09

before, what your real needs,

13:12

desires, and

13:14

what the solution is

13:16

to those feelings, whether it's

13:18

about insecurity or whether it's about

13:21

needing at the end of the day

13:23

to be held or whether

13:26

it's about that one

13:29

investigates the fantasy

13:31

for deeper truths about oneself

13:34

as a healing path to that

13:36

as opposed to the

13:38

healing path being a reenactment

13:41

of it in some way. And it's

13:43

not always healing. Sometimes it's just fun.

13:46

It's excitement. And the primary purpose

13:48

of a fantasy is to intensify

13:50

excitement and arousal and pleasure. Let's

13:54

be very, very clear. That is the,

13:56

its main function. It's

13:58

what more can I add? you know, and

14:02

sometimes it's enacted, sometimes it doesn't

14:04

need to be enacted because it's

14:07

enacted in my mind. But the

14:09

interesting piece about erotic fantasies is

14:12

that they often include

14:14

many feelings

14:18

and experiences that

14:20

do not get processed so easily

14:23

in other parts of our lives.

14:26

You talk about the diaper, infantile

14:28

needs and wishes are very

14:30

big in our fantasy world.

14:34

Jealousy, possessiveness, revenge,

14:38

power exchange, total

14:41

surrender, passivity. I mean

14:43

there are many feelings that we would

14:46

not want to experience those in, I

14:49

don't want to feel jealous in real life. But

14:52

in my fantasy, if that

14:54

jealousy becomes an elixir, it's

14:57

fun, it's playful, it's

14:59

pretend, it's a great theater. I

15:02

mean as an actress,

15:05

the world of fantasy is a theater. You

15:09

perform the play or you read the play

15:11

or you imagine the play, but it is

15:13

a theater and it's extremely

15:16

important for people to understand the

15:18

pretend nature of it because that's

15:20

what helps with the discomfort, the

15:22

shame, the guilt, the embarrassment. And

15:24

people have to understand that fantasy

15:26

is play. But because

15:28

it reveals them to themselves, they

15:30

often think, oh, what does that

15:32

say about me? That

15:34

I am imagining something like that.

15:38

Why are the infantile wishes so prevalent?

15:40

Because for many people, it's a time

15:42

when they felt very secure, when it

15:44

is about the wrapped,

15:48

warm, peeing in the diaper

15:50

felt it was very warm, it was

15:52

being held, being cleaned. There's

15:55

a lot of, for many people,

15:57

positive associations with being rocked. being

16:00

helped, being sued. And

16:02

so what we have

16:05

a capacity to do is to

16:07

eroticize those needs,

16:10

wishes, aspirations, experiences

16:12

and turn them into

16:15

erotic material, basically,

16:17

sexually enhancing material.

16:20

And I

16:22

don't think anybody has ever fully

16:24

understood how this works

16:26

and why we do this. And do

16:28

other mammals have them? Everybody

16:32

has a sexuality, but not

16:34

everybody has an erotic life. And

16:37

a central agent of eroticism

16:39

is our imagination. Yeah, yes.

16:42

It's this and not that. Yeah. But

16:45

for many women, I just

16:48

say sometimes it's the time of day,

16:50

it's the weather, it's the temperature, it's

16:53

things that have nothing to do

16:55

with plot and accoutrements and toys.

16:57

It's just anything that enhances the

17:00

experience. You don't have to think

17:02

about it as an elaborate script.

17:05

Sure. One of

17:08

the questions that came up early with

17:10

journalists and promoting the book

17:13

was about the fact that

17:15

we included a chapter

17:18

called Captive and that

17:20

we discussed. Force against. Yeah. I

17:23

mean, I know for myself, a

17:26

number of women who have

17:29

very violent fantasies. And

17:32

it was important to me that the

17:35

book included those because they're true and

17:37

women have them. And I wanted

17:40

to ask you about that just in terms of, I

17:42

mean, as you said a minute ago that a woman

17:46

would never necessarily want that to actually

17:49

happen. I've never seen a woman who

17:51

wants a split lip. She wants it

17:53

to happen. Yeah. But

17:55

the fantasy of a

17:58

level of violence. describe

28:00

that I see primarily in straight

28:02

couples. I see many male partners

28:04

who tell me nothing turns me

28:07

on more than to see her

28:09

turned on. And

28:12

you say loving, caring, nice, cares

28:14

about the pleasure of their partner,

28:17

etc. I have yet

28:19

to hear a straight woman tell me that

28:21

in my office about her male partner. Interesting.

28:23

Nothing turns me on more than to see

28:25

him turned on. It's

28:27

irrelevant. It's irrelevant what

28:30

he's experiencing if she's not feeling

28:32

anything. She's not

28:34

feeling anything. He can be standing there with

28:37

a major erection right next to her. It

28:39

won't turn her on. It will not do

28:41

anything to her. What turns

28:43

her on is what's happening to her. And

28:48

in order for that to happen, she

28:50

needs to be able to completely focus

28:52

on herself. And

28:55

many of the fantasies are

28:57

set up so that she can focus

28:59

entirely on herself and

29:02

not worrying about the well-being of

29:04

others, on caring for them,

29:06

on feeling responsible for them, all of that.

29:10

That kind of narcissistic investment in

29:12

the very positive sense of the

29:15

word is essential to connect her

29:17

with her erotic self. I am

29:19

free, which is what a

29:22

fantasy is a script for. I'm

29:24

sovereign means I am not

29:26

responsible, worried, caring for anyone

29:28

else's well-being at this moment.

29:31

I'm thinking about me for

29:33

a change. Bondage

29:35

offers that, submission offers

29:38

that. Fantasy

29:40

in general. Fantasy in general, but you were asking me

29:42

about BDSM. I think if

29:45

you're not able to experience

29:49

so fluidly spontaneous

29:51

arousal, desire, and you

29:54

are more in an entrance to

29:56

your sexuality that has to do

29:58

with willingness. I'm willing,

30:00

I'm open. It's not like I'm turned on,

30:02

I'm not excited, I'm not aroused, I don't

30:04

yet have any desire, but I'm open to

30:07

see what will happen. Fantasy

30:09

becomes ever more important in

30:11

post-menopause, because if

30:14

it's not coming from the body, it

30:16

will come from the mind. Interesting,

30:18

yeah. From our imagination. So that's

30:21

where I think that a good

30:23

story, a good plot, can

30:26

do wonders. Interesting. I

30:30

have a couple more questions. Yeah, me too. I have

30:32

one for you now. Because

30:34

I think one of the things that you

30:37

do and that I do in Where Should

30:39

We Begin? So I do sessions that are

30:41

anonymous. Your

30:43

stories were collected anonymously, you inserted

30:45

one of you anonymously in the

30:48

book, Want. And

30:51

the assumption is there is a

30:53

freedom that we

30:55

feel when we can reveal

30:58

ourselves to our fantasies

31:00

in an anonymous way. Yeah. What

31:03

did you learn about this anonymity? Anonymity,

31:07

I have to imagine

31:09

that, I

31:13

did a book reading last night and a woman came

31:15

up while I was signing and said that

31:18

she wrote a particular one in the book.

31:20

And I was so, it was the first

31:22

person that I had met a

31:24

real human being who had written.

31:27

And I was so, obviously grateful to her

31:30

and amazed that she felt free and courageous

31:32

enough for me to take a picture of her

31:34

with the book and the fantasy. And I

31:37

have imagined that many, many

31:39

women did it purely

31:43

because it was anonymous. And had it

31:45

not been, and had we asked

31:47

for more detail, that they would

31:49

have been much shyer or maybe would

31:51

not have sent them in at all.

31:55

And that's even Western one. I'm not

31:57

even thinking about women in countries where

31:59

fantasy is. illegal, you know,

32:01

various forms of imagination even

32:03

would be considered punishable. And certainly

32:05

for the one that I put

32:08

in myself, I was grateful for the anonymity

32:11

of the book. Has anyone identified you?

32:13

I mean, if they did, I would

32:16

not. I mean, I think

32:18

it's important that mine remains anonymous. I think

32:20

it's a beautiful idea that you did it,

32:22

that you threw yourself in the lot, so

32:24

to speak. He said, I'm one of yours.

32:27

I'm not just a collector of your

32:29

stories. I'm part of the stories and

32:32

you swim with the fish. Yeah, it

32:34

was hard. I was really

32:36

surprised at how challenging I

32:39

found it. Not even the

32:41

fact that I was going to be handing

32:43

it to somebody else, but the

32:46

writing down particular words all of

32:48

a sudden felt, I

32:51

keep thinking, dirty, which

32:55

on the one hand, I feel like I'm

32:57

not particularly square. I feel like I can hear anything

32:59

and say anything, but there was something about

33:02

the act of writing it down

33:04

that felt much more pornographic than

33:06

the visuals or the,

33:10

you know, than my imagination, which was interesting. I

33:12

found that interesting. Did the fact that you wrote

33:14

your own change how you read the ones

33:17

from the others? It

33:19

made me be

33:22

much more impressed by the courage that

33:25

it took for women to write it.

33:30

And did you write it in the beginning? No,

33:33

I wrote it at the end. I kept putting

33:35

it off. And then a

33:37

couple of times I tried to write it while

33:39

I was on airplanes and I found that I

33:41

was too paranoid about people, you know, that I

33:43

couldn't do that. And then eventually I just sat

33:45

myself down and did it. We

33:55

are in the midst of our session and

33:59

there's still so much much to talk about.

34:01

We need to take a brief break,

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so stay with us. Support

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38:25

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you tell us time

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and again how valuable these conversations

38:58

are to you. How they accompany

39:00

you in critical moments of your

39:02

life. How you see yourselves even

39:04

in stories that have nothing to

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do with yours. And how

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it has helped you and

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that is probably the most affirming thing

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sex lessness to work conflicts

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39:49

betrayals all sorts

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39:54

ending relationships and

39:56

we offer follow-ups with the couples

39:58

because people are always ask me, you

40:00

know, do you see them again?

40:02

Do you hear from them? Do you know where this

40:05

session landed? So I go back

40:07

to the couples and I ask them for

40:09

a follow-up which they share

40:11

with us and which I then share

40:13

with you. And just

40:15

like our relationships, what you say

40:17

isn't as important as what you

40:19

do. So I've heard

40:21

you say how much you enjoy the

40:24

program, how much it adds to your

40:26

understanding of your own relationships. But

40:28

now it's time for me to do

40:30

an offer and an ask, which means

40:32

click on the subscribe button to the

40:34

Where Should We Begin show page. I'd

40:37

love to see you in Estelle's office

40:39

hours. Is

40:44

it only or primarily

40:46

for women or

40:48

people who identify as women? Yeah. Or

40:51

can men... It's for everyone. Oh,

40:54

absolutely. Can I learn

40:56

about myself by understanding and by

40:58

reading you? That should be able

41:00

to be translated to any gender

41:02

and any... Exactly. And I mean,

41:05

it was important to me that

41:08

we asked only women for this

41:10

particular book to send

41:12

in fantasies. I

41:14

have heard from many men

41:17

how much they're learning from reading

41:20

it. Obviously, and what's bizarre

41:22

is this never occurred to me because I

41:24

was really only initially doing this for women,

41:26

but men buying

41:29

it to be turned on. But

41:33

it is for everybody.

41:36

And a couple of men have

41:38

said that they're buying it for their daughters,

41:40

for their teenage daughters. One

41:43

said to counterbalance the toxic

41:45

masculinity that's out there, to

41:47

other ideas out

41:50

there about what is possible

41:52

and what is okay and what other women

41:54

think about. I

41:56

mean, actually, speaking of males, you

41:58

have two sons? Yep. Yeah, I'm

42:01

curious. I also have two sons

42:04

how you when they

42:06

were of You

42:08

know of the ages That

42:11

you would have might have had these conversations how

42:14

you Taught

42:17

them about as

42:19

you say relational intelligence how you

42:23

talked about sex with them

42:25

or about what

42:29

Women if they were Wanting

42:32

to be with them and what women might Want

42:36

of them or what you expected

42:38

them to be aware of in

42:41

their relations with them. I

42:43

wrote meeting in

42:45

captivity When my oldest

42:47

was 11 and my youngest was

42:49

8 we had talked

42:52

about sexuality Basically

42:54

since they were four at

42:57

four I had the first book that

42:59

explained where babies come from Because

43:02

at four is when children become theologians

43:04

and they ask where do

43:06

I come from and where does grandma go when she

43:08

dies? Mm-hmm. And so

43:10

the French General books were

43:12

started then and it was about the chickens

43:15

and the elephant and the kitten and the

43:17

people And how each one of

43:19

them gets their little ones.

43:21

Yeah So that's how we talked about

43:23

it We talked about you

43:26

know, how it's when you like someone you like to

43:28

hold their hand You like them

43:30

to touch you and when you don't like them

43:32

Do you sometimes feel like you know, do your

43:34

neck goes up and your shoulders tighten? So

43:37

it was woven into the conversation.

43:39

There was no sexuality that didn't

43:41

also include relationships. It's one hole

43:46

And Then they would sometimes

43:48

like someone in the kindergarten and then

43:50

in elementary school and then you talk

43:52

it you have a little girlfriend And

43:54

and you normalize this. Yeah, this is

43:56

not necessarily the

43:59

most common way in the United States, I have

44:02

to admit. But then one day

44:04

I was writing, and in the

44:06

front of the house were all the books that

44:09

I needed to read. And there were many, many books

44:11

about sexuality. And my older one came home one day

44:13

and he said, could you please cover

44:15

all these books, because I have friends coming over.

44:18

And I said, if I was writing

44:20

a book of weapons of mass destruction,

44:22

you would not ask me to cover

44:25

anything. So we're not covering. This

44:27

is normal. We're not

44:30

making this an ooh, ah, ee

44:32

subject. And we're not

44:34

cringing around it. This is just part of life. And

44:36

if your friends have questions, then we'll

44:39

talk about it. And

44:41

at first it was a little there. And

44:43

then at one point one day I came

44:45

home and I heard him sitting with a

44:47

bunch. And they were talking. And then

44:49

one of them finally said, how do you know this?

44:52

And my older one says, because my mother is writing

44:54

a book about it. So

44:57

I said, OK, we're good. Now we can

44:59

go forward. And then at first there was

45:01

a little discomfort. What is this mother who

45:03

writes a book? But then when the teacher

45:05

came to school holding the book in hand,

45:08

then they said, my teacher is reading your

45:10

book. So it became respectable and everything. Took

45:12

a while. Took a while. On

45:14

their own one day one of them called

45:17

and wanted to ask if they could come

45:19

and bring someone. And I said, you

45:22

can bring her, but I want to know

45:24

her name. And I want her here

45:26

for breakfast. She's

45:29

not coming here furtively, lying

45:31

to her parents, not telling them where

45:33

she is, and then leaving

45:36

this house afterwards and going

45:38

home. This is not how we're going to

45:40

do it. She has a name. She's dignified.

45:42

And she's invited for breakfast. And

45:45

then after she left the next day, which we

45:47

did, and then I came into

45:49

the room and I said, shall we chat? Now

45:51

I know. I did. And

45:53

I said, you don't know much. Most

45:56

people in my office know very little. And

45:59

the older they are. that doesn't always mean they

46:01

know plenty. If there is

46:03

a subject people don't know much about,

46:05

it's sexuality. If there is a subject

46:07

people lie about, it's sexuality. It's

46:09

the topic that men lie about

46:12

by exaggerating. It's sex and women

46:14

by diminishing. So,

46:16

shall we chat? And

46:19

then the basic first first thing

46:21

was, it's not a

46:23

performance and an outcome-based

46:25

thing. It's an experience.

46:27

Sex isn't just something you do.

46:30

Sex is a place you go. So where

46:32

do you want to go? Do you

46:34

want to experience a deep connection,

46:36

a spiritual union, a transcendence, fun,

46:41

naughtiness, mischief? What calls

46:43

you there? And

46:46

more importantly than anything else,

46:48

slow down. Slow

46:50

down. You

46:53

will always go too fast. For

46:56

now. And that was

46:58

kind of the first conversation we had. Can

47:01

you teach boys respect

47:04

for women? Absolutely. But

47:06

you also- And so what would the language be? How

47:08

would you, particularly

47:11

in this day,

47:13

this time of Andrew Tate's, et

47:15

cetera, how do you begin that

47:18

conversation with them knowing that there

47:20

is the other dialogue going around

47:22

about it? So

47:24

that they listen and don't- Does

47:26

it matter to you what

47:29

she experiences? She,

47:32

they, he. Yeah,

47:34

yeah. Does it matter what your

47:37

partner experiences? Would

47:39

it make a difference for you if your

47:41

partner said this was a wonderful moment? And

47:45

that you would know that you were

47:47

the source of that in part. I

47:52

think that that will give you a

47:55

whole different experience of

47:57

sexuality, partnered sexuality. And

48:01

then if you tell me yes, I wouldn't

48:04

mind, I'd like that. Who

48:06

would say no to that kind of thing? Then

48:09

I would say, here are ways that

48:13

you can demonstrate that and that you can

48:15

invite that. Would that intrigue you?

48:18

Never give away what you know before you have

48:20

the buy-in. Make

48:24

them really want to know. Because

48:28

I didn't just talk to my sons, I talked to

48:30

the whole group of friends around. It was like the

48:33

mother you can talk to. But

48:35

it's not like you sit down for one conversation

48:38

and you teach. It has to be an easy,

48:41

integrated flow of conversation.

48:44

I sit you down and let me tell you what you

48:47

need to do. There

48:49

is a way of thinking about sexuality that's very

48:51

different from most of what you're going to see.

48:54

You know this thing porn that you may enjoy,

48:57

lots of people get turned on to it. But

48:59

just so you know, for a lot of people,

49:01

that is the last thing that they really want.

49:05

And before you begin to bring

49:08

all what you watched on screen, take

49:11

your time to discover it with the other person.

49:13

Get to know them. Get

49:15

to know how they like to be touched. Get

49:18

to know by them holding your hand

49:20

how they like to touch. How

49:23

they give touch and how they take touch.

49:26

How they please you and how they please

49:29

themselves. Get to know

49:31

them. Be curious. Don't think you

49:33

need to know. One

49:35

of them I said, you're not expected to

49:37

know. You

49:39

didn't learn baseball in one day. You

49:43

didn't learn baseball in one year either. So

49:47

this idea that you have in your mind

49:49

that you should just know, know you know

49:51

squat. And

49:54

then at the end it was like, do other

49:56

kids talk like that? I said, I don't know,

49:58

but I would really love to know. I'm really

50:00

bad that the world wants to talk to me

50:03

and not my own sons. I mean, or their

50:05

friends that I've known since they're born. So

50:09

that's the way you teach. You

50:11

weave it in, you normalize it,

50:13

you make it comfortable, you don't accuse

50:15

them of anything. They're

50:18

boys, they're not supposed to know. Yet.

50:23

Yet. How

50:26

would you apply relational

50:28

intelligence to the

50:30

concept of fantasy? Let's

50:33

say in my relationship, I've

50:36

been married for 20 years. My

50:39

partner, my husband, let's say, has never

50:41

quite been able to satisfy

50:43

me in the way that very often I

50:45

take myself off alone afterwards

50:47

and satisfy myself for another time. And

50:50

that's how I get pleasured. But

50:54

because of reading this book, I

50:56

want to address the subject. No, don't.

50:59

Not like that. Well, that's, I guess

51:01

that's why I question that. You don't start from your book. If

51:04

you start from the place which you just

51:06

described, I live with someone

51:09

who basically I've never really

51:11

come with them. I

51:14

enjoy it somewhat or not at all, or

51:16

I wait for it to be over, or

51:18

I actually enjoy it, but I've never come,

51:21

et cetera, et cetera. You don't start with

51:23

a fantasy because you don't even know

51:25

if the other person, I read

51:27

one like that this morning. I'm

51:29

with my partner for 19, 20 something years.

51:34

We have zero romantic relationship.

51:37

When I want to tell him, he

51:40

instantly feels criticized. I probably do

51:42

because by now I'm so frustrated,

51:44

so fed up. I

51:46

think the first thing, I

51:49

just did a desire bundle. There's

51:52

two digital courses on sexuality, and

51:54

one is really starting from the

51:56

place of we're stuck. Nothing's happening.

51:59

That demands one. one kind of conversation. The

52:01

other one starts from, we have a flicker,

52:03

we would like a flame. That

52:06

one could start with your book. The

52:08

first one, you first

52:11

write and you just say, I've been

52:13

thinking, and I think it's writing. You

52:16

write a letter by hand and

52:19

you put it wherever they will find

52:21

it. I've been thinking, I've been thinking

52:23

about us and I've

52:25

been wanting to bring this up for many years

52:27

and I actually don't always, don't know how. I

52:30

don't find my words, I'm afraid

52:32

you're gonna be upset that we're

52:34

gonna end up in an argument that's the

52:36

least thing I would want. What I really

52:38

hope is to create a deeper connection between

52:41

us because I know that we really care

52:43

deeply for each other, but

52:45

I know that we've never really been

52:47

able to have an adult conversation about

52:49

sexuality. We will talk

52:52

about renovations of our houses, umpteen

52:54

times, but we will never talk

52:56

about the renovations we could have

52:58

in our own relationships. Home improvement

53:02

of our own sort. And

53:04

before I even say anything, I was wondering,

53:07

does that even interest you? Would you be

53:09

open to that? Can I

53:11

invite you into this conversation? And maybe

53:13

just answer me in writing. We

53:16

may not be ready to have a face-to-face

53:18

conversation, so we'll do it side by side.

53:21

That would be the opening. You

53:23

do not come and say, you know what I

53:25

would really like that would get me off? Is

53:27

this? No, no, no, no, it's

53:29

just... Yeah, I think I meant just as

53:31

a result of having read it, one decides

53:33

that they want to have the conversation with

53:35

a partner and how did they go about

53:37

doing that? So that's fantastic. I think most

53:39

people start from a very

53:42

different place. They've never, you

53:44

know, how is it? It

53:46

works. What does it mean? We both come.

53:49

Yeah. And how is it?

53:51

It works. Right. So

53:53

I'm trying to think, aye, before

53:55

we enter the fantasy world. That

53:59

doesn't... mean they can't go there. But

54:02

sometimes it starts with if you

54:04

could have a mini

54:06

session where each of you could

54:09

just show exactly how they would want

54:11

the other person to touch them. And

54:14

all you do is you guide them. And

54:17

you can even do it with your

54:19

clothes as in a good sense of

54:21

focus. But it is about having someone

54:23

who is completely attentive and attuned to

54:26

you. That in itself is

54:28

a fantasy too. And

54:30

then you sustain it. Yours

54:33

are advanced. There's

54:35

a lot of fantasies in there

54:37

where the bottom line is a

54:41

woman wanting to be loved for

54:43

exactly who she is. Yes. And

54:46

seen. And seen. And adored. And adored.

54:48

And cherished. And adored. And cherished even.

54:50

Yeah, cherished. Yes. Cherished. Cherished. And I

54:52

see a lot of cherished

54:55

spouses and famished lovers.

54:59

Interesting. So it

55:01

has to start. It starts much more

55:04

basic. But we have to

55:06

stop. So I was thinking, what's this like

55:08

for you? Because

55:10

they usually interview you. It's

55:13

interesting. It's really fascinating. I've

55:16

had some fantastic conversations with

55:18

women. One thing that I

55:20

want to make sure that we speak

55:22

about before we finish is the area

55:24

that I think I'm most interested

55:28

in what's coming from this, which is about

55:30

a new sense

55:32

of empowerment in

55:35

starting this conversation in

55:37

this community that's developing because of

55:40

the book. It's

55:42

encouraging women to find their

55:44

voice. But

55:46

what you just highlighted when you talked

55:48

about cherished and adored and

55:51

being loved for exactly who she is, is

55:54

that that's not always how she

55:56

experiences herself. Correct. She experiences herself

55:58

with a person. much more of a

56:01

critical voice, a comparative voice,

56:03

a competitive voice, a

56:06

voice of abnegation, you

56:08

know, and so the fantasy of

56:10

being received and loved as she

56:12

is stands

56:14

in contrast. Exactly.

56:17

So that's the fantasy that repairs

56:19

and compensates. Yes. The

56:21

power, I think

56:24

it's empowerment and

56:26

self-acceptance are

56:28

interconnected. Absolutely agree. And

56:31

so when she finds her voice, if

56:37

I ask her, this is

56:39

a very different level

56:41

of question, just like I

56:43

turn myself on when or

56:46

by, which is

56:48

different than what turns me on is, or

56:51

you turn me on when. And

56:54

sometimes it starts with I turn myself on

56:56

when I walk in nature, when I listen

56:59

to music, when I dance in the bathroom,

57:02

when I temper myself, when I go out with

57:04

my girlfriends, when I read a good book. It's

57:07

basically I give myself the

57:09

permission to attend to myself.

57:15

It's the personal version of the

57:17

same in the

57:19

fantasy. Is that the first step before being able

57:22

to ask that of somebody

57:25

else? I

57:28

don't know. I imagine for some it may be me

57:30

first you next, and

57:33

for others it may be you first me next. I

57:35

don't know that there is a one size fits all.

57:38

But what I do know is that when you ask

57:40

women, how do I turn myself on or off? The

57:45

answers are not sexual in nature. They have

57:47

to do with empowerment. They have to do

57:49

it what you're

57:52

highlighting with self-acceptance, with body

57:54

image, with sensuality, with pleasure,

57:56

with nurturing one's body. self

58:00

with attending to oneself and

58:03

that in itself is

58:05

the first level of

58:08

I'm adoring myself

58:10

or particularly adoring and cherishing so

58:12

much shame yeah we did we

58:15

can't have this conversation without using

58:17

this word at least once yeah

58:20

you know because you you paid a lot

58:22

of attention to that yeah and

58:26

I think that cherishing

58:28

myself attending to myself is on

58:30

the other side of the shame

58:34

absolutely where

58:45

should we begin with Esther Perel is

58:47

produced by Magnificent Noise we're part of

58:49

the Vox Media podcast network in

58:52

partnership with New York magazine and the Cut our

58:55

production staff includes Eric Newsom,

58:57

Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen

59:00

Muller and Julian Hahn original

59:03

music and additional production by Paul

59:05

Schneider and

59:08

the executive producers of Where Should We

59:10

Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker

59:14

we'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton,

59:16

Mary Alice Miller and Jaxxel

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