0:02

None of the voices in this series are

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ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each

0:07

episode of Where Should We Begin is a

0:09

one-time counseling session. For the

0:11

purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names

0:13

and some identifiable characteristics have

0:16

been removed. But their

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voices and their stories are real. Vitamin

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more with Viator. This

1:19

is a story of

1:21

a couple that loves

1:24

each other dearly. Decided

1:27

for themselves of a

1:29

relational arrangement of ethical

1:32

non-monogamy, her opening

1:34

line to me talks about their

1:37

love for each other and their love

1:39

of freedom. I like

1:41

freedom and he cannot

1:43

be in a traditional couple, he needs

1:45

an open relationship. I

1:47

felt like wow we are building something

1:49

really unique and authentic to both of

1:52

us. They've

1:54

been synchronised about it, they

1:56

agreed on a set of rules.

1:59

And they... They looked

2:02

forward to a life

2:04

of polyamory, of non-monogamy,

2:06

of experimentation. But

2:08

as is often the case, we make rules

2:11

and we break them. And

2:14

the unanticipated consequences

2:17

of that breach is

2:19

what they are grappling with for the past year.

2:22

But then this thing happened once

2:24

my partner didn't protect. The

2:27

other person got pregnant. She

2:30

kept the baby without any

2:32

dialogue with us. And

2:35

now we have to say everything

2:37

to everyone. Not only

2:39

that we are in an open relationship, that there is a

2:41

child that does not mind. We

2:44

would like to create a space to

2:46

receive him at our home. But

2:49

this is not possible if we don't

2:51

accept that anyone

2:53

can look at us with this child.

2:57

So we have to work on this way

3:00

of acceptation. It's

3:02

not easy for me. I don't want this child. I

3:04

tell you honestly, I don't want him in my home.

3:06

I don't want him in my life. And

3:09

one of my fears is to

3:12

become this stepmother from all the

3:14

childhood stories. I still

3:16

don't want to quit this open relationship

3:19

and don't want to quit Eric. But I'm still

3:21

wondering which is my way. She

3:26

thought that by choosing another

3:28

model of relationship, she was

3:31

experiencing a sense of agency.

3:34

And now it has toppled for her. So

3:38

it's a relational crisis, but it's

3:40

also an existential crisis for her.

3:43

And for him, it is about what

3:46

is fatherhood? How does

3:49

one define it? How shall he define

3:51

it? The

3:53

session is in English and

3:55

in French and we go back and

3:57

forth as an exception.

4:00

In the exception, the couple chose to call each

4:02

other by their name. They

4:04

did not name anybody

4:06

else. So

4:10

use these names as

4:12

an entry door into the universality

4:14

of certain experiences, rather than it

4:17

is just this particular couple. Let's

4:21

go. We

4:26

are in an open relationship

4:29

and we have decided this

4:31

from the very first moment we met.

4:35

We have a child. We love

4:37

being parents. We have really an

4:39

idealistic idea of being parents. We

4:42

are devoted. That

4:44

was an exclusivity that we decided,

4:46

okay, we open our couple, but

4:49

this is something we share. Unique

4:52

experience. We

4:55

are in an open relationship. Open

4:58

is defined as... It's

5:01

about taking the freedom to speak

5:04

if we have a desire for

5:06

someone, if we want to share

5:08

our intimacy with other people together

5:10

or separate. It's

5:12

about listening to the limits of

5:14

the other. It's mostly

5:17

an open dialogue about

5:20

how to be in a couple. And

5:22

this has been a very, very

5:24

open-minded experience for me from the

5:26

very beginning. The

5:29

problem is that in this open relationship,

5:31

we have limits, of

5:33

course, we have some rules. So

5:35

far, we consider it as

5:37

a nuclear couple. So we

5:40

are the priority for our

5:42

family. You are the

5:44

primary relationship. Yeah.

5:47

No matter who are the other relationships,

5:50

our relationship is the main. It's

5:54

the priority. And

5:57

what happened with our

5:59

situation? I had a

6:02

friend, let's

6:04

call her Elle maybe. It

6:06

appears that in this friendship with

6:08

Elle, there was also

6:11

a desire, but

6:13

it was clear that

6:15

this desire should never lead

6:17

to sexual intercourse.

6:21

But what helped very much is that she

6:23

had a girlfriend too. And

6:27

I didn't realize before, but this girlfriend

6:29

was a kind of protection of not

6:32

going too far. And

6:35

then she stopped the relationship

6:37

with that girlfriend. And

6:40

it appears that immediately when she was not anymore

6:43

with her, it gets sexual very

6:45

fast. For example,

6:47

I start to have a very

6:49

close intimacy, not, sorry,

6:52

I give very precise details, but it

6:54

was not penetration or something like that,

6:56

but it was very, very close intimacy.

6:59

We were naked and it

7:01

happened too fast because normally in

7:03

this situation, we should have speak

7:06

together, Paula, with me before it

7:08

happened and

7:10

we didn't. So there

7:12

was a kind of transgression already

7:16

there. But

7:19

Paula and I dealt

7:21

with this year and we spoke

7:23

very, very much together. And then

7:25

we decided to go

7:28

forward. And then I saw

7:30

her again. And

7:32

then it happened that at

7:35

one moment, I

7:37

didn't protect myself with condoms. And

7:40

this is another infidelity, if I

7:43

think we can say, because

7:46

we agreed with Paula that I should

7:48

protect. And when

7:50

this time came, I had the condom in

7:52

my hands. And

7:55

the stupidity from me was to say, we

7:59

protect. Instead of

8:01

we protect. It's

8:04

just a question mark, the difference. So

8:07

you made it into a question mark with

8:11

a possibility for an open-ended

8:13

answer rather than a clear

8:17

mandate. Yeah. But

8:19

I know because I thought very much about this

8:21

moment and it could seem

8:23

stupid if I was 15 years

8:25

old. But I

8:27

think it was something like this is

8:30

something magic and I'm afraid to

8:32

break something, to break the

8:34

moment, to break the magic

8:36

instant. And I'm

8:38

very angry about that because when I

8:40

think about that I want to go

8:42

back and but I

8:45

know it's not possible but you know I feel

8:47

angry about this acting

8:49

like a child. Angry

8:51

at yourself? I'm angry at myself. And

8:54

the other stupidity for me

8:57

was that I was really

8:59

trustful that because I

9:01

did practice for a long time, how do

9:03

you say? Hautré? Withdrawal.

9:07

Withdrawal. I did practice this for a

9:09

very long time and I was

9:11

so sure

9:14

about me about that. And you know that

9:16

scientifically you can't be sure but I thought

9:18

yeah I didn't thought actually about that you

9:21

know. I didn't even thought about the idea

9:23

to have a baby. And

9:26

this flight of fantasy,

9:30

this grandiosity

9:33

that the rules don't apply, that science doesn't

9:36

apply, you know that your

9:38

fantasy is stronger than reality and

9:40

than the facts. This

9:43

was an exception for you. You

9:46

usually live between the rules,

9:50

even the self-imposed rules, or

9:54

you tend to make rules and

9:56

then one day you break them.

10:00

Hmm, it's

10:02

an interesting question. Thank you.

10:06

Yeah, sorry. I

10:09

think I

10:11

really trusted in my experience, my

10:14

own experience. Mm-hmm, I hear you.

10:17

Because for years, it

10:20

happened to me that I

10:22

used this solution and

10:24

it always did work. And

10:27

then what happened? You

10:30

get a call one day that says there is

10:32

a child on the way and it's yours. But

10:35

actually, the story is quite more complicated than

10:37

that because there was another one. Another

10:40

man. Yeah, another man. And

10:43

Elle told me, that's cool,

10:45

I have a child and

10:47

it's his child. That's

10:50

wonderful. I mean, it just

10:52

right after this happened the

10:54

next week, she started an

10:56

exclusive relationship and we knew

10:58

that guy and we were very happy

11:00

for them. So

11:02

she was pregnant like two months

11:05

and she did an ecography and

11:08

she had a term

11:10

of conception that was close

11:13

to the weekend where

11:16

they had sex with Eric. So

11:19

there was a doubt and

11:24

we started to live with a doubt. And

11:26

that moment, the other guy left. So

11:29

at the end, we did a pre-natal

11:32

test, a paternity test. We did

11:34

it in Belgium. A DNA test.

11:37

So we knew for three

11:39

months after the announcement

11:41

that it's Eric's child.

11:45

She was still in the limits of

11:47

doing an abortion, but it was never,

11:49

ever a conversation. She

11:51

said, okay, I'm doing this child and I

11:53

will have it on my own. The

11:56

nightmare started at that point. In

12:03

order for me to understand

12:05

what she means by nightmare,

12:08

I need to do a quick recap in

12:10

my head. They

12:12

have an open relationship from

12:14

day one. They are the

12:17

primary couple. Two of their

12:19

rules are about having conversations

12:21

with each other when they meet

12:23

someone and

12:25

to use protection. Both

12:28

of those essential rules

12:31

were broken. He

12:34

has a wild weekend where he

12:36

has sex three times with

12:38

this other woman. She

12:41

also has another boyfriend with

12:44

whom she spends the next few months. And

12:47

when she announces that she's pregnant, at

12:49

first everyone is quite relieved

12:51

because everything seems to be in

12:53

their right place. The

12:55

child was conceived with this new

12:57

boyfriend and this couple almost

13:00

took a massive risk but avoided

13:02

it in the end and they

13:05

can continue their life on the

13:07

trajectory they're on. But

13:09

then the doubt sits in and

13:12

then people start to wonder, what's

13:15

the provenance of this child?

13:18

One of the most archaic questions

13:21

that we have asked throughout

13:23

humanity and that has

13:25

been at the root of how we think

13:27

about monogamy and infidelity

13:30

and non-monogamy. In

13:33

order to clear these doubts, a

13:35

DNA test is made and it

13:37

is established that in fact it

13:39

is the child of

13:42

this man who is sitting right

13:44

with me for this session. And

13:47

at that moment, the

13:49

whole future of

13:52

this couple is

13:54

momentarily in question,

13:57

not in terms of will there be a couple. What

14:00

they do at night, what they

14:02

do sexually with others, is maybe

14:04

no one's business. But

14:07

to arrive suddenly on the street,

14:09

at work, at a birthday party,

14:11

with another child, that

14:13

demands explanation. So

14:17

it's about bridge of

14:19

trust, it's about betrayal, it's

14:21

about secrecy, it's about sexuality,

14:24

it's about children in the midst of all of

14:26

this. It's about parents who

14:29

have no idea what your relationship

14:31

is actually about. And

14:33

that's what we're going to unpack. So

14:40

I heard you say it's her

14:43

child. Is it her child? Yeah.

14:45

Is it our child? She said, this

14:48

is what she said before giving birth.

14:51

She said, I don't need

14:53

anything from you. If

14:55

you want to give me something, you give

14:58

me, otherwise you don't give me anything. It's

15:00

my child. I will have it alone. Eric

15:05

felt the moral obligation to recognize the

15:07

child, to pay a pension, to think

15:09

about how to integrate it in our

15:12

lives, in his life, so in our

15:14

life. And this

15:16

is what we are working on for more than

15:18

one year. And after

15:21

giving birth, she started to be

15:23

invasive, she wanted more time, regularity,

15:27

she gave birth, and

15:30

one week after she wanted to give us the

15:32

child time. But

15:34

she didn't agree with our terms. We

15:38

said, okay, let's go together in this story,

15:40

but it's not going to be Eric. It's

15:43

going to be us and

15:45

us with our child. So

15:47

it's going to be our

15:49

family that will accompany this

15:51

baby. And she didn't

15:53

want it. She wanted just Eric and that's all.

15:56

But we said that, okay, in order to bring

15:59

this child in our home. with this regularity, we

16:01

need to take it step by step.

16:04

She didn't agree. She said, okay, it's difficult

16:06

for me this way and we should do

16:08

a break until the child grows bigger

16:11

and then let's talk again. So

16:14

now we didn't see the child since December.

16:18

So we have you, the couple,

16:20

you have a child that is how

16:22

old? A three and a half. Okay,

16:25

you have a two and a half year old boy who

16:27

has met the baby but doesn't know yet who

16:29

the baby is. And

16:33

then who else is in the drama?

16:36

That knows or doesn't know. And

16:38

then there is a little baby who does

16:40

not yet know cognitively

16:43

but senses a tongue. Well,

16:50

where we are now is that we

16:52

decided that the next time when this

16:54

baby will come to our house, it

16:57

will be with

16:59

no secrets, like truly welcoming,

17:03

which it was not the case

17:05

before when he was born.

17:09

I think this is something that

17:11

we are a bit stuck in

17:13

this stage because it's very hard

17:16

to open, especially

17:18

from my side. I

17:20

still have things to work on

17:23

and especially, okay, especially my family.

17:27

That's one of the main issues for me but

17:30

I get even emotional to think about it. Who

17:34

is in the family and what is the

17:36

concern? So

17:40

I live in Eastern

17:42

European country. I

17:45

was born just after communism. I

17:48

think I was lucky to have a family that is

17:51

quite open. I always have

17:53

had freedom. But

17:56

of course they have their limitations that

17:58

they don't know that we are. an

18:00

open relationship. How religious

18:02

are your parents? They are

18:05

Orthodox, Christian Orthodox. No,

18:08

but when I ask about their religion, the depth

18:11

of their religious feelings, it's less

18:13

about you

18:16

having transgressed or you

18:18

having betrayed

18:21

or you having been unfaithful. But

18:24

it is about what is

18:26

considered a child out of wedlock or

18:29

an adulterous child. That's

18:31

the language that is used.

18:34

Definitely. Yeah, I get

18:36

the feeling that they will worry

18:38

about me, that Eric

18:41

is hurting me. I couldn't say to

18:43

them last year because I was

18:45

too hurt and I would definitely cry.

18:50

It's strange now because they are parents

18:52

and you should be vulnerable in front

18:54

of them. But since I left and

18:56

lived in different countries, I had a

18:58

very difficult time to be vulnerable in

19:00

front of my parents. Why? When you

19:02

lived with them, you could. Or

19:05

you've always opted for. I only

19:07

show them that I'm sure of what I do,

19:09

that I'm confident that I've got it all figured

19:11

out. They don't know the

19:13

other side of me. I

19:18

think at some point I didn't

19:20

because I didn't necessarily felt listened

19:22

to and not heard. And I

19:24

think I started to a bit

19:26

close myself emotionally.

19:30

All the worries stopped when I

19:32

had a child. So now their

19:35

attention is focused on the child. I

19:37

suddenly became perfect. Of

19:40

course, I suddenly became perfect because I

19:42

also suddenly checked their life

19:45

principle, marriage with a child, with

19:47

a stable job. I

19:50

think also the difficulty to speak with

19:52

them is that we never spoke about

19:55

sex, about protection. This

19:57

was very taboo. I don't know why.

20:01

Well, you're supposed to have premarital sex. If

20:04

you're going to have sex with the person that

20:06

you marry, then there is not

20:08

so much of a need to talk about. I

20:12

mean, that is not my framework, but

20:14

that is a consensual

20:17

framework. Because

20:19

there is no sex to be had

20:21

until there is sex you must have.

20:27

Yeah, so suddenly I have

20:29

to talk to my parents

20:31

about sex, but first I

20:33

waited to not cry when

20:36

I speak with them, which is, I'm not sure if...

20:39

You cried with me and you will

20:41

cry with them, because it's part of

20:44

a larger story. And

20:46

the larger story is that for a long time

20:48

you have not done what

20:50

they expected, but

20:53

you tried to do it on your

20:55

own terms and you basically chose

20:58

the option of, I only

21:01

show you everything that works

21:03

so that I can prove to you that my

21:06

choices are valid. And

21:09

I can avoid your criticism or your fears

21:11

or your care and your worry. And

21:14

now I'm basically coming to say, here is

21:16

a choice I made that you don't even

21:18

know about and here are the consequences, that

21:22

not only do you not want them, I didn't

21:24

want them either. And I

21:27

still love this man deeply and we

21:29

are committed to each other and we

21:31

have all intentions of continuing to

21:33

be a couple, a family and an

21:35

open relationship. So

21:38

you're going to need to select what

21:41

of that they need to know. And

21:46

more importantly, you're going to have to

21:48

find a way to be

21:50

able to tell them, I want to

21:53

be able to present myself to you

21:55

with my choices and with

21:57

my frustrations or mistakes.

22:00

mistakes or worries. That's

22:03

the conversation. And

22:06

if they are as loving as you say they

22:08

are, then they will

22:10

understand that. They'll take their

22:12

time. It may not be in

22:14

the first conversation, but they'll understand

22:16

it. And maybe they'll even say

22:18

thank you because you will appear

22:20

to them more responsible than cocky.

22:24

And that's the difference, rather than

22:26

the narrative that you've had for the past

22:28

10 years, which

22:31

is always, everything is always great.

22:37

Yeah. And accepting

22:40

this child is another point.

22:42

I mean, like some of the people I

22:44

want to explain. And I feel

22:46

that we have to go to this narrative

22:48

and like you have to explain something before

22:50

being accepted. This is what I feel now.

22:54

I don't have it yet. I don't fully

22:57

accept. I'm not fully happy

22:59

when the child is in our home. I

23:01

think I project a lot of things on

23:03

this child. And

23:06

you don't want to become the mean stepmother. Exactly.

23:10

But you find yourself with mean thoughts.

23:13

Yeah. Okay. So, she

23:20

owns every part

23:22

of the story where she

23:25

plays a part. And

23:28

her level of insight

23:31

into the complexities of

23:34

this story and

23:36

the relationships between the people is

23:40

very moving. And

23:42

I'm moved by the precision

23:44

with which they understand their

23:47

feelings. And

23:49

as I listen to the session

23:51

now, I wish I had actually

23:54

told her that. But

23:56

they're also at all times saying

23:58

this is This is what I'm

24:01

experiencing now. This

24:03

may change. And

24:05

they are continuously talking about

24:07

relationships as a breathing, living

24:10

organism. We

24:16

have to take a brief break. Stay

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24:21

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27:01

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27:04

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27:06

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27:08

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27:10

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27:14

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27:26

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27:29

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27:31

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27:33

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27:41

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27:43

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27:47

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27:57

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27:59

the opportunity. to join a

28:01

special 7-day 4-Play Challenge. I

28:04

look forward to reading your questions, exploring

28:07

them with you, and

28:09

helping you to answer them. What's

28:17

your experience of this? Yes. I

28:20

hear from Paula something like, I

28:23

discovered a different way of

28:26

living. I was

28:28

on an adventure. And

28:31

this adventure has capsized. But

28:34

I still want to be on this adventure.

28:37

But now I need to explain to people.

28:40

And I need to have answers that I don't have.

28:43

And I need to reassure people in ways

28:45

that I can't reassure them because I can

28:48

barely reassure myself. And

28:51

this whole thing that was an

28:53

agreement between you and I now becomes a

28:57

confrontation with society. Am

29:00

I hearing that accurately, Paula? Yes.

29:03

OK. So to me, when

29:07

you were speaking, Paula, I wrote this question.

29:10

What is the story do we

29:12

need to say to people? What

29:15

is the story that we need to tell? Yeah.

29:19

I feel that I have elements that make

29:21

me strong enough to

29:24

face the thinking of people

29:26

around us. Say more. I'm

29:28

not afraid about what they will

29:30

think. And it appears very clear

29:33

to me that at last, OK, the

29:35

priority to me, the place where I have

29:37

to be, is

29:39

taking care of Paula. And

29:41

this helped me very much. It

29:44

was very difficult to bring El and

29:46

Paula at the same table. It

29:50

was difficult for Paula, but she always said,

29:52

but let's go. We have to. For

29:55

El, many times she said, yeah,

29:58

but stop. I don't want that. And

30:00

I won't come to the table with Paola and you. I

30:03

can come to speak with you alone, but

30:06

please not Paola. Because?

30:09

My idea is that she

30:11

felt that Paola looked at

30:13

her in a negative way. And

30:16

I think she was not

30:19

ready to face that. Of

30:21

course Paola is angry about her. On

30:24

a certain point I can understand that, but

30:28

we really needed to beat the

30:30

three of us in

30:32

this situation. And

30:35

for me it was impossible not to

30:37

come with Paola. I

30:39

hated to be the translator

30:41

between El and Paola. I

30:44

always was afraid of betraying something,

30:46

of not telling it in the

30:48

good words and not making it

30:50

really understood as it should. And

30:53

for me this situation was very,

30:55

very putting me

30:57

into distress. I

31:00

don't believe in God, but I went to

31:02

the cathedral and I

31:04

burned some candles praying

31:07

that I don't know how,

31:09

but to find a way that there is love,

31:13

but you know the large meaning of

31:15

the word between Paola and El. Just

31:18

I need them to find

31:20

a way to connect together. Why? Because

31:23

we are three of us in this story. And

31:25

so I thought we need to be able

31:28

to communicate to the three of us to

31:31

be able to construct something that is

31:33

peaceful and that allow us

31:35

to take care together of

31:37

those children. I

31:40

hear you. If these two

31:42

women do not find a way to

31:45

connect, I

31:48

will lose all. My

31:50

son won't have a dad. I

31:54

don't know if there was ever a plan for the two

31:56

of you to have other children, more

31:59

children. Not for now. But

32:03

before? But before, yes.

32:06

So I can also imagine

32:08

that whenever Paula sits

32:10

in front of El, she

32:12

thinks, you changed the

32:14

plan of my life. I

32:17

had another child in mind, but not like that.

32:22

And there are loads of issues

32:24

of acceptance. There is warning

32:26

other people to accept you, but

32:29

there is also how you accept this

32:31

boy, how much

32:34

you see yourself as parental

32:37

figures to this boy, how

32:41

much the boy becomes a part of the

32:43

family, because you

32:45

don't want him to continuously

32:47

wonder, what is my origin? And

32:51

to feel that it's a tainted origin. And

32:55

you want your older son

32:57

to be able to be clear

32:59

that he has a brother, and

33:02

that this brother has three parents, or

33:05

maybe they'll have four parents at some times. I

33:08

don't know if I am allowed to say

33:10

that he has two mothers, because

33:13

I don't know how Paula consider about

33:17

this second son. Is

33:20

that a question? Yeah. Yeah,

33:24

I definitely don't feel a mother for

33:26

that child. I first have to get

33:28

rid of all the

33:30

things that he came with. I

33:33

mean, when I see him, I feel empathic, but

33:36

I definitely don't feel a mother for this

33:39

child, because I have no connection

33:41

with this story. I mean, if

33:45

you say, this is your brother, to a

33:47

boy, to me, it's

33:50

not true. I mean, I don't

33:53

feel it's part of our family yet.

33:55

Maybe one day I won't care, but

33:57

let's be clear. So

34:01

at this moment, I

34:03

understand that you have slowed

34:05

down and that you're taking

34:07

some time to sit

34:11

with this. And that means you don't have

34:13

to go talk to anybody for that matter.

34:16

Or you need to say the bare minimum just so

34:18

that you can do the things you

34:20

need to do. But also, I

34:24

do think the piece about having another

34:26

child comes into the story. Because

34:29

a lot of things will

34:31

be projected onto this child if

34:34

he gets to redefine

34:36

the trajectory of this family. And

34:40

that will make it harder to accept him. Yeah.

34:45

Can I say something? To

34:47

be really honest,

34:54

I don't really love

34:57

this second son. Actually,

35:01

I don't even know him. And

35:04

I don't have this kind of

35:06

real father relationship with

35:08

him. The

35:11

relationship I have with him is

35:14

conducted by responsibility. I feel

35:17

responsible about

35:19

this child. I am connected to

35:21

him, but I can

35:23

say for now that I love him. That

35:26

would be great if one day we can love

35:28

him together, Paula and I.

35:33

History is filled with stories

35:36

of fathers who

35:39

did not assume the responsibility

35:41

for the children that they

35:43

brought into this world. At

35:47

this moment, he hasn't had many

35:49

opportunities to bond with his own

35:51

child, with this second son. And

35:54

therefore, he acts from

35:56

a place of duty and

35:58

paternal obligation. more

36:01

than from a simple open-hearted

36:04

place. We

36:06

today may find that there's

36:09

something called about the lack of feelings.

36:13

Whereas throughout history we haven't

36:15

necessarily asked fathers to show

36:17

feelings. We have asked fathers

36:19

to show responsibility. But

36:23

what's interesting is that even though there

36:26

is a lack of feeling here, he's

36:28

holding on to the archaic role

36:31

of responsibility and duty that

36:33

one has as a father.

36:36

And from that place he

36:38

hopes that he will find

36:40

a way to connect with this child.

36:42

It is completely something he longs for

36:44

and hopes and knows, because that

36:47

is what he has felt for his other child, is

36:49

the combination of those two sources

36:52

of connection, love

36:54

and responsibility. Do

37:02

you feel allowed to love him even

37:04

if Paula, I

37:06

wouldn't say doesn't love him, I would say, you

37:10

say parenthood can be driven by

37:13

responsibility with

37:16

or without love. I

37:18

feel parental duty, I don't

37:21

feel parental love. And

37:24

that's not very popular in the West these

37:26

days, but you're being not

37:29

popular and that's not been your

37:31

priority to begin with. And

37:35

my question to you is, do you

37:37

feel that you could love this

37:39

child even if Paula continues to

37:42

relate to him out of duty? I

37:47

think both of you have that distinction. It's

37:50

actually a place where you meet. You

37:54

both feel he should be loved, but

37:56

you don't yet love him because

37:59

he has been so... such a terrible

38:01

disruptor, but it's not him, it

38:04

happens to be the decision of his

38:06

mother and you can't hold this child

38:08

responsible for a decision he didn't make.

38:11

And that's something that you also both agree

38:13

on. But

38:20

the difference is I think I don't love

38:22

him not because of the

38:25

history, but just

38:27

because I

38:29

don't have the opportunity to love him. Okay,

38:33

there was one moment when

38:36

I did love him for a few

38:38

seconds. I felt

38:40

suddenly human. When the

38:43

first time I hold it in my

38:45

arms, we

38:47

looked each other into our

38:49

eyes. And

38:52

at this very moment, I thought, oh, yes,

38:56

I think he could be my son. I think there

38:59

is something here. But it was only a few

39:01

seconds. I just think

39:06

it is a person and I

39:09

will build a relationship with this person.

39:11

And this never started for real. Right.

39:15

But in order to build a

39:17

relationship, you need the

39:20

building materials. The

39:24

ingredients that you have for your

39:26

newborn son are not

39:28

allowing you to build much because

39:31

it's in the midst of doubt

39:33

and anger and

39:36

recrimination and guilt

39:40

and pain. And so

39:42

those are not such good

39:44

building materials. I mean,

39:46

they will build something, but it will

39:48

be a wobbly tower. So

39:53

the first thing that needs to happen

39:55

is to clear some of

39:57

the debris, if possible. And

40:00

that takes a lot of caring

40:02

conversations and a lot of

40:04

acceptance of unknowable

40:08

feelings. Because

40:11

the thought that you could be

40:13

rejecting of a child is inconceivable to

40:16

either of you. You

40:19

are loving parents. How can you

40:21

be with this kid and not love

40:23

him, not warn him there? And that's

40:26

when I hear Paul, I say, I

40:28

understood for the first time what

40:31

the wicked stepmother may be

40:33

experiencing. She's not just

40:35

wicked, she's deeply hurt. She's

40:38

been asked to do something that

40:41

nobody's asking her, how hard

40:43

is this? She's

40:45

just expected to deliver. And

40:48

she sits there with these negative

40:52

emotions towards

40:54

this innocent creature. And

40:57

I don't want to be that person, but I

40:59

don't know how to clear myself of those feelings

41:02

and those thoughts. And

41:06

then I understand the

41:08

mother of the child who says, if you look down

41:10

on me, then

41:13

I don't want to be in

41:15

your presence because you

41:17

destroy me with your looks. And

41:21

therefore I'm going to go and I'm going to retreat and

41:23

I'm going to isolate. I

41:27

mean, I'm just going to put it

41:29

out as a question because far from me

41:31

to think here, do this and

41:34

do that. But the

41:36

decision that you would not be talking

41:38

with El without Paula, I

41:40

am not sure if that is in

41:43

the long term the

41:45

only avenue. Okay.

41:49

But if I do that, I

41:52

really, really need

41:54

to be sure that

41:57

is accepted fully.

42:00

by Paula because I can't hurt Paula

42:02

anymore with that. I can't. Have

42:10

you deeply apologized to her? I

42:14

think yes. Yes,

42:16

I did. But you just felt

42:18

the need to do it again. I

42:22

mean, I mean, I don't. Just talk to

42:24

her. Yes. That's

42:29

what we're in, in French. You have to say

42:31

this in your own language. I... In

42:34

fact, I'm a female. I'm

42:38

a woman who I love. I'm

42:47

sure that I have a situation where I... I'm

42:51

not going to be able to control her with me. And...

42:58

I'm aong to be able to go. I

43:01

am working from college to reflect. To be honest I'm feeling really

43:03

ampl CTV. I am going to do it all. It's

43:05

going to be fun. I am a young woman. What are youahu man?

43:08

It's going to be... I have quite

43:10

a few families, because I am often waiting time. And I

43:12

was like... Well, I am going!? Of

43:16

soft something that I

43:18

am expecting at the moment. Because

43:20

I am! I

43:29

feel more than sorry that

43:31

I hurt you, because I feel hurt about that.

43:34

I feel hurt myself by the

43:36

idea that I hurt you. Because

43:39

I really f**king

43:41

love so much our relationship. Our

43:45

relationship is to me a real treasure. I

43:48

never, never was so far in

43:50

a relationship. In the ability

43:52

to build

43:55

through the storms. And

43:57

for this I am so grateful. And

44:01

that's why I'm so sorry and

44:04

so hurt that I can hurt

44:06

you and so afraid to

44:09

hurt you again. I

44:17

am a little bit afraid that

44:20

while hearing you, I feel a lot of pressure.

44:23

I don't know why but I'm

44:25

afraid that what you're saying to me

44:27

is that you're afraid to

44:29

be vulnerable again in front

44:33

of me because you're afraid

44:35

to hurt me. I

44:39

won't stop. I hope I

44:42

can control myself to build the decision with

44:44

you. To

44:47

build. Yeah, this is something that I would like. Yeah,

44:50

for example, about polyamorous things. Before

44:53

I thought, okay, we see what happened in a

44:56

relationship. Oh, I kissed someone. Okay. And then we

44:58

speak about that. And

45:00

I really feel that now I need to be strong

45:03

about that. And I feel

45:05

strong. And that's a good thing. I can feel

45:07

we could be about to kiss. And

45:09

I hope I can not kiss.

45:13

And first say, okay, we are going to

45:15

speak together. I

45:17

think that what just happened is something

45:20

different. You

45:23

made a beautiful declaration of love. I

45:27

can't bear to see how much I hurt you. I

45:29

really fucked up. And

45:32

I cannot take any decision that would

45:34

hurt you more. And

45:38

I was curious how you would receive this.

45:43

If you would receive it as a

45:45

gift, there's nothing for you

45:47

to do just to hear it.

45:52

Because he probably feels bad often. But

45:58

you heard this as a gift. Because as

46:02

if he was not giving you something, but

46:04

as if he was demanding, as if he

46:06

was putting pressure on you. And

46:10

in my psychological head,

46:12

I thought,

46:16

so interesting, because you

46:19

said that you have learned

46:21

with your parents never to

46:23

show yourself vulnerable. But

46:27

my question to you is, and

46:29

then what happens when someone actually

46:32

sees it? Can

46:36

you receive it? Can

46:39

I receive what? The others

46:42

look, the others regard. His

46:45

regard, his reflection. Sometimes

46:48

when we learn not to

46:50

show our vulnerability to

46:52

the people that are close to us, it becomes

46:55

hard for us when other people see

46:57

it, to

47:00

receive it without pressure. You

47:04

don't have to reassure him. You

47:06

can just say, thank you. It means a lot.

47:09

I needed to hear that. And

47:11

I may have to hear it many more times. The

47:16

problem with this is that

47:18

I've heard many times, I

47:21

would never do that. I

47:24

mean, I trust Eric, but like he

47:27

said at the beginning, I would

47:29

never sleep with that woman. He

47:32

often says this, like he's very

47:34

sure about something and that

47:36

there is the surprise.

47:39

Yes, yes, yes, I see that.

47:41

So he's building something. Yes. He

47:44

takes time to build it and

47:47

then he destroys it like this. And this is the

47:49

summit. It

47:52

was a real explosion. When

47:54

we had the news that this is Eric's

47:56

baby, I felt like my life is melting.

48:00

I feel like my body will

48:02

enter into the earth. I

48:05

have a lot of anxieties nowadays about

48:08

there is something and in a second

48:10

I lose everything. So

48:12

now Eric is speaking to me like this.

48:14

I think I

48:16

know the system. Maybe

48:18

you have to prove it to me. Like,

48:22

okay, these are words. And

48:24

words I know they can be just destroyed,

48:27

melted. And I

48:29

feel we build it a little bit so

48:32

my trust for Eric is rebuilding.

48:35

So I don't know if I take the words so

48:38

powerful as they are. I think they have

48:40

a charge. Yep,

48:42

I hear you. Her

48:46

answer was really

48:49

powerful because while

48:51

I was emphasizing his ability to

48:54

envelop her with the breath of his

48:56

emotions, she highlighted

48:58

a piece that I had not

49:00

yet seen, which is that he

49:03

starts from that place of

49:05

engaging her with his

49:08

feelings and then gives

49:10

her a sense that she can rely on

49:12

it, that the frame is solid. And

49:15

then he actually overthrows it,

49:17

which brought me back to the question

49:19

that I asked him in the beginning when

49:22

he transgressed and infringed

49:24

on all the rules that he had

49:26

himself created, if this was unusual for

49:28

him or if this was actually something

49:30

that he had been known to do.

49:33

And she answered it for him. We

49:38

have to take a brief break. Stay

49:41

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50:24

Sue Bird here, I'm Megan Rapinoe. Women's sports

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politician in the world. For evidence,

51:21

take a look at how he's run against Kamala Harris for

51:24

a month or so. He's

51:26

called her dumb. I don't have a

51:29

lot of respect for her. Intelligence. Beautiful. She

51:31

looks like the most beautiful actress ever to

51:33

live. A communist. All we have to do

51:35

is define our opponent as being a communist

51:37

or a socialist or somebody. He thinks she

51:40

laughs weird. Have you heard her laugh? That

51:43

is the laugh of a crazy

51:45

person. That she'll cause the stock market

51:47

to crash. In one post he said,

51:49

quote, stock markets are crashing, job numbers are

51:51

terrible, we are heading to World War III,

51:53

and we have two of the most incomitant,

51:56

quote, leaders in history. And that she

51:58

was mean to Mike Pence. The way

52:00

she treated Mike Pence was horrible. It's

52:02

unclear if any of these insults are

52:05

getting Trump closer to a second term

52:07

as president. So, on Today Explained, we're

52:09

going to ask what would, how Trump

52:11

could win. Coming up on the show. I

52:17

hear you and I connected to something you

52:19

said before. I arrived.

52:22

I had very little knowledge about

52:25

any of this. And I allowed

52:28

him to take me by

52:30

the hand and enter

52:32

with me into a whole world.

52:35

And I was fascinated. And

52:37

we decided to create what

52:41

we thought was a more elevated

52:44

relationship. And

52:47

my co-creator stepped

52:49

out of the

52:51

creative process. And

52:54

I learned something very important about

52:56

him. He has a capacity

52:59

to convince himself and

53:02

others that

53:04

is very persuasive in

53:06

the moment that disconnects him

53:08

from reality. Now,

53:11

on occasion, that's an amazing thing to

53:13

do. That is part of

53:16

the creative process, is to disconnect from

53:18

reality so you can enter rich,

53:20

imaginative, generative

53:22

worlds. But

53:25

in this case, it came with a big

53:27

price. So

53:29

if you want to apologize to me, you can

53:32

apologize to me. But

53:35

if you become convincing, I become

53:37

suspicious. No. No.

53:43

Yes, it's just that in which part I

53:45

would like to be convincing of something. Because

53:50

I don't feel I try to convince

53:52

Paola about something. Because

53:55

really, for me, I just describe what I

53:57

feel. It's about when you feel too

53:59

short. about yourself or

54:01

you know when you say I would never do that

54:03

it's like you feel very sure. I

54:05

corrected and I said I hope I

54:07

will never do that. You

54:12

corrected yourself today but

54:14

she's been with you for a few years. So

54:18

what you do in the moment is

54:20

not the only thing she registers. Our

54:24

internal memory, our

54:26

nervous system, we

54:29

remember and

54:31

we interpret a behavior in the moment

54:34

on the basis of what has proceeded. Yeah

54:37

but I'm not feeling in a

54:39

way that I try to convince. I

54:42

think I try to I really try

54:44

honestly to describe how I feel. I

54:49

get it. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. I

54:51

think let's change the word. You're not

54:53

trying to pull her over and to

54:55

convince her but you're making

54:58

statements that resonate

55:01

with assurance even

55:04

though it's a desire,

55:06

it's a wish but it's emphatic

55:09

and it's absolute and

55:11

that is what got broken for

55:13

her. Do

55:16

you want to say this in your own words? For

55:22

me there is a level of taking

55:25

things for granted. Maybe

55:28

sometimes you're too sure about

55:30

yourself to see me

55:32

for real, for how I

55:34

feel for real. Maybe

55:38

the last year I missed a

55:40

few times saying a

55:43

real question of how do you feel

55:45

and less about

55:47

you saying your

55:50

thoughts and

55:54

maybe I need more space. Yeah,

56:00

I think I have the point. You

56:05

need me to open

56:08

voluntarily the space for you to express

56:11

yourself. Is

56:15

it that? Did

56:17

I understood? Yes,

56:21

yes, maybe. Maybe

56:25

you need me more to mark, okay, no,

56:28

it's not about what I'm about to say, but

56:30

please tell me you. You

56:32

need me to say that and

56:35

not to wait that you take

56:37

the initiative to express yourself about something.

56:41

Or maybe I don't even let you space. Sorry.

56:44

That can be a good opening and see

56:46

where it takes us. One

56:50

of the dilemmas is

56:52

that if I

56:54

understood well, there

56:56

was a desire at some point to begin to

56:59

think about having a second

57:01

child. And

57:04

this boy in your

57:06

mind has kind

57:08

of eclipsed that other

57:11

project. And

57:14

so it's like, which child cancels

57:16

out which? It's

57:19

a terrible way of thinking.

57:21

But if you start to think

57:23

about another child now, it

57:26

softens the reality

57:29

of this boy that entered

57:31

your life, but

57:33

that wasn't part of the script. But

57:37

on the other end, if you integrate

57:39

this boy and you put all

57:42

your attention on him, then

57:44

it also redirects

57:47

the whole trajectory of your

57:50

relationship. It's

57:52

an impossible triangle. Which

57:55

child will win,

57:59

so to speak? I

58:02

didn't give up the idea of

58:04

having a second biological child. I'm

58:08

fantasizing about it and it's

58:11

really a real desire for me. Yeah,

58:14

I really want this

58:17

child and I'm not really

58:19

like biological child or not. I even

58:21

thought about adoption at some point, but

58:23

adoption is a common project. It's

58:26

a project that two people decide on. The

58:31

fact and maybe the

58:33

other point was about this the whole last year.

58:35

I had no word to say. I

58:38

had only like, do you

58:40

want to keep and save this marriage to

58:42

fight for this? But I had no words

58:44

to say in keeping the baby,

58:46

in recognizing the baby, in the pension,

58:49

in the time, in that like nothing. Things

58:51

were imposed to me. It's not

58:53

my project. There is a

58:55

dialogue with Eric, of course, but it's

58:57

like a fake contribution. You don't really

58:59

make decisions. You can express your

59:01

feelings, but you don't have power. Exactly.

59:04

That's what you're saying, right? Yeah,

59:07

yeah. Are

59:11

you surprised? Yeah, I'm watching

59:13

his face too. So

59:16

here's the thing. Don't say yay or nay.

59:20

Just take it in. You

59:22

wanted to know how she feels. She

59:25

just told you. Don't argue

59:27

with it or try to

59:29

convince her that that's not it. She

59:31

tells you that's exactly this. This is

59:33

the dynamic. This is about power and

59:36

influence, not just about feelings or

59:39

expressing oneself. This is about decision

59:42

making. But

59:46

there is another thing that

59:49

I'm a little bit

59:51

sad to say this now because I think

59:53

it's not very positive. I'm

59:57

afraid that I will leave this discussion with

59:59

a... fear because

1:00:03

of the idea of a second child, because there

1:00:07

is no connection from me with

1:00:09

the sound that I have and that I

1:00:11

didn't want to have. Before

1:00:13

this, I really was

1:00:16

sure that I want to have

1:00:18

a song that we have, and

1:00:21

I really don't feel ready

1:00:23

to have another one. I'm very sorry to

1:00:25

express because I see that there is a

1:00:27

deep desire for you, which is to have

1:00:29

another child. But

1:00:34

I can't give you this child

1:00:36

because I love you. If

1:00:39

we make this child together, it's because I

1:00:41

also feel ready to have this child. And

1:00:43

it's not that I should convince you not

1:00:45

to do this child. I don't want that.

1:00:49

So I wonder where

1:00:51

we are going. I

1:00:53

have a fear that to one point, you

1:00:56

will need to, I

1:00:58

don't know if you need to leave me, but there is

1:01:01

a need to do something so

1:01:03

that you have this second child because you need it. It's

1:01:06

possible that I'm not the father of this child.

1:01:10

There is a question mark here. I'm afraid

1:01:12

that I can't give you what you really

1:01:14

need. I'm

1:01:16

afraid about that. I

1:01:22

hear and I understand. It

1:01:25

opens up a whole new

1:01:27

conversation that I agree that you should

1:01:29

not make a child only because you love me.

1:01:35

I have no solution. But

1:01:38

I hear and I agree with what you

1:01:40

say. And

1:01:42

it's a conversation that you will have. Even

1:01:46

if we don't have it together, you will

1:01:48

continue this. This is

1:01:50

not about ending something with a nice bow. Sometimes

1:01:54

you end in the middle because it's dot,

1:01:56

dot, dot. In

1:01:59

the middle. love a thought and here we are.

1:02:03

This is a complicated situation and

1:02:06

there's no easy answers and

1:02:09

pity solutions. You're

1:02:12

trying to live a very conscious, examined

1:02:15

life and this will be

1:02:17

part of the examination. Thank

1:02:24

you. It's about the session where

1:02:27

they express their ambivalence

1:02:31

about this other

1:02:33

child. Feeling

1:02:37

kept growing inside of me that

1:02:39

her attachment with this boy

1:02:43

will ultimately be

1:02:45

determined if she

1:02:47

has another child of her own. And

1:02:51

the loss is less about this other

1:02:53

boy as about

1:02:56

the fact that he now no longer

1:02:58

wants to have another child with her,

1:03:00

a child she chooses to have, another

1:03:03

child she chooses to accept. So

1:03:06

he says in all

1:03:08

honesty and honesty hurts in this

1:03:10

moment. I don't want it. I'm

1:03:13

going to rob you of one

1:03:15

of your biggest dreams. I

1:03:18

can't impose on you not

1:03:20

to fulfill it. So I'm inviting

1:03:22

you in effect to go and

1:03:25

create a similar situation to me,

1:03:27

to have a child with someone

1:03:29

else, which is what the other woman

1:03:31

chose to do. It's

1:03:33

an awkward place to end the session,

1:03:36

but as I often say at the end

1:03:38

of a session, when I do

1:03:40

ongoing work to be continued. It's

1:03:49

very important for me to hear what

1:03:51

of this session stayed with the

1:03:53

couple. And I received two

1:03:56

rather detailed voice notes. interested

1:04:00

in actually going further into

1:04:02

this relationship, I

1:04:05

reflect on these notes and I play

1:04:07

them for you on

1:04:09

my office hours this week on Apple

1:04:11

subscriptions. Where

1:04:20

should we begin with Esther Perel is

1:04:22

produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of

1:04:24

the Vox Media Podcast Network, in

1:04:26

partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our

1:04:29

production staff includes Eric Newsom,

1:04:31

Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen

1:04:34

Muller and Julian Hahn. Original

1:04:37

music and additional production by Paul

1:04:39

Schneider and the executive

1:04:41

producers of Where Should We Begin are

1:04:43

Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd

1:04:46

also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary

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Alice Miller and Jack Zoll. For

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