0:00

Kate here. Just a quick one. Before you

0:02

dive into this episode with Stephen Fry, this

0:05

was recorded ahead of the

0:07

BBC's announcement that he was

0:09

indeed joining the lineup of

0:12

celebrity traders. How exciting. Can't

0:14

wait. Enjoy the episode. Coming

0:21

up on this episode of White

0:23

Wine Question Time. The

0:26

worst thing a contestant

0:28

can ever ever

0:30

say is, it's before

0:32

my time. Everything's

0:34

before your time in a quiz, or should be,

0:36

or could be. How dare

0:38

you use that as an

0:40

excuse? That's absolutely pathetic. I love this.

0:42

You're making Anne Robinson look cuddly at this

0:45

point, Stephen. Ask

0:47

someone who's been through that

0:49

because they will know. But I

0:51

have had every door open

0:53

to me without me having to

0:55

knock on it, and that

0:57

sounds so... such a dreadful thing

0:59

to have to admit because

1:01

you know one ought to have

1:03

struggled and it's deeply unfair

1:05

for me to be so lucky

1:07

is is just extraordinary yeah but

1:09

you did you did have to kind of recover

1:11

from being sent to prison to get into

1:14

the university so you know listen hello there's

1:16

some early struggle in there I'm gonna just

1:18

remind you of that that's that's a

1:20

bit of a hill to climb So

1:23

whenever I hear people talk

1:25

about the woke mind virus and

1:27

how wokeness is destroying the

1:29

world I just want to remind

1:31

them that just yes there

1:34

have been some people on the

1:36

left who have said preposterous

1:38

things and insisted on rules and

1:40

things in universities and elsewhere

1:42

that make you feel The

1:44

world's got a bit

1:46

mad. Yes, that is true.

1:48

But compare that to

1:50

some of the suffering, misery,

1:52

exile, loneliness, mockery, shame, and

1:55

general suicidal horror that

1:57

faces young people growing

2:00

up gay around the world. Like

2:03

the old theatre joke, how do you get

2:05

an elephant off the stage? Do

2:07

you get an elephant off the

2:09

stage? You can't, it's in his blood! That's

2:14

the point. It has to be in

2:16

your blood. It's no good saying, oh,

2:18

I thought about, you know, maybe going

2:20

into an eco company or a charity

2:23

working in Africa, and then I thought,

2:25

actually, no drama school. No, forget

2:27

it. No, yeah. It's drama school or

2:29

nothing since you were eight years old.

2:31

Really, it's just who I am. I

2:33

just have to do it. It

2:35

doesn't mean you'll succeed, but it's the

2:37

first requirement. Hello

2:42

and welcome to Right Wine Question Time, the

2:44

podcast that asks its guest three thought -provoking

2:46

questions over three glasses of wine. And

2:48

my guest this week is a man who

2:50

is known not only to many, but

2:53

I go as far to say as

2:55

he's pretty much known to any and

2:57

everyone in fact. Be it young children

2:59

listening to his readings of Harry Potter

3:01

as their gateway into a world of

3:03

books, his film work in movies like

3:05

The Hobbit, Peter's Friends, Sherlock Holmes, and

3:08

Wild, all to comedy fans who've grown

3:10

up with him and his work on

3:12

everything from Blackadder and Jeeves and

3:14

Wooster to hosting shows like QI.

3:16

Then of course there's the books.

3:18

the plays, the television dramas, be

3:21

they Apple TV's The Morning Show

3:23

or his many, many documentaries. It's

3:25

been a life thus far of

3:27

the highest highs and the most

3:29

crashing of lows. A voyage

3:31

of constant self -discovery alongside

3:33

an almost magical carpet ride

3:35

professionally that's seen him accrue

3:37

huge success in all of

3:39

his many chosen fields. A

3:42

professional passion junkie, if you

3:44

like. Such is the length and

3:46

breadth of all that he's done.

3:48

There are three volumes of his

3:50

autobiography, now available, and for his

3:52

50th birthday, some 17 years ago,

3:54

BBC Two dedicated two nights of

3:57

programming to his work. It's almost

3:59

impossible in this introduction to do his

4:01

CV any kind of justice, so I'm not

4:03

going to attempt to do it here,

4:05

but I promise that we will dive into

4:07

the corners of so many of his

4:09

experiences, achievements, passions and

4:11

love. in this next hour.

4:14

Now 67, he lives between North London

4:16

and Norfolk with his husband of

4:18

10 years, Elliot, and is back on

4:20

our screens hosting the second season

4:22

of the game show Jeopardy for ITV.

4:25

Oh, what a thrill. Let's dial him in.

4:27

It's Sir Stephen Fry. Well,

4:34

good morning Los Angeles. Greetings.

4:38

Hello, Antigua, or wherever you find

4:40

yourself. Antigua, yes, indeed, indeed.

4:42

I feel like I'm living

4:45

in the White Lotus right now,

4:47

Steven. I'm just waiting for

4:49

a body. Oh, dear. But

4:52

can I say, you look remarkably

4:54

well, sir. you. You

4:56

look twinkly -eyed and bushy -tailed. Thank

4:59

you. I feel well. I feel

5:01

very well. You look remarkable. How

5:03

is Los Angeles? It's

5:06

usual self -riddy. Obviously, areas

5:08

of it are recovering from

5:10

the quite monstrous and upsetting fire

5:12

of a month or so

5:14

back. The area where

5:16

I am in the Hollywood Hills

5:18

has been spared. This time, you

5:20

never know. Yeah, this is the thing.

5:22

This is the thing. And how

5:25

long are you out there for, Stephen? Oh, just

5:27

a couple of weeks. Have they taken well

5:29

to the news that you are

5:31

now hosting one of, well, American

5:33

televisions? most institutional

5:36

shows jeopardy. I

5:38

think they're very pleased. They were

5:40

very shocked that most British people don't

5:42

know what it is because it's

5:44

such an institution. Yes, naturally

5:46

because It's been going since

5:48

1963. It's the longest running quiz

5:50

show in the world. It's an absolute institution

5:52

in America. Yeah, Jeopardy is the OG, the

5:55

original gangster. I would say,

5:57

I would say, yeah. And there is

5:59

no British equivalent, really. I mean, at seven o 'clock,

6:01

what do we have? I think that's,

6:03

is that Emma Dale or something that? Yeah, it's

6:05

the tail end of the one show. Yes,

6:07

indeed. The one show finishes and

6:10

gives way to... it gives way

6:12

to. But for

6:14

some reason in America, they have

6:16

the hour of Merv Griffin, who

6:18

was the divisor of Jeopardy and

6:20

also Wheel of Fortune, which follows

6:22

in the next half hour. He's

6:25

the divisor of both. That's

6:28

some serious IP. Oh

6:30

yeah, and his wife actually

6:32

contributed the most obviously weird

6:34

factor that people notice who

6:36

don't know it, which is

6:38

that instead of asking the

6:40

contestants questions, we give them

6:42

answers and they have to say

6:44

what the question is. There's actually an

6:47

interesting reason behind it. Some people

6:49

may remember the Robert Redford film quiz

6:51

show. Yeah. Which was about a

6:53

scandal in the 1960s, early 60s on

6:55

a show called The $64 ,000 Question,

6:57

I think it was called. And

7:00

the production team had

7:02

basically colluded with

7:04

one of the contestants by giving

7:06

him the answers. And it caused a

7:08

change in the law. People were so

7:10

outraged that they weren't. Yeah, so that

7:13

now these things are covered by criminal

7:15

law if you try and pull one

7:17

over the public. So everything

7:19

has to be fully recorded and

7:21

fully understood and fully monitored. And

7:24

the same with Britain. There's very strict

7:26

laws about these things because you're giving

7:28

money away. So fraud can come in.

7:30

So perhaps it's not so surprising. So

7:32

anyway, Mrs Griffin said

7:34

well let's avoid any of

7:36

those things of giving them the

7:39

answers by making sure that

7:41

we give them the answers on

7:43

air and they have to

7:45

give us the question and it

7:47

was like a sort of

7:49

little joke to avoid it because

7:52

After that scandal, a lot of quiz

7:54

shows have gone off the air

7:56

and the networks had stopped believing in

7:58

quiz shows because of the potential smell

8:00

that came off this

8:02

scandal. The name jeopardy

8:05

is very important as well because

8:07

there's risk involved. There's betting involved. You

8:09

bet what you've won at the end

8:11

and that can turn the game

8:13

upside down. And it's a rollover game.

8:15

So you can watch people getting

8:17

richer and richer as long as they

8:19

stay on and beat that. two

8:21

new contestants every time. And the

8:23

difference between here in America is whatever you win

8:25

here in the UK, you keep. In America, there's

8:27

tax to be paid on whatever prize you win.

8:29

So quite often people might, for example, win a

8:31

car, but can't afford the tax, have to give

8:33

the car back. Yes, it's a strange

8:35

thought, isn't it? What

8:41

I love, Stephen, is that you are taking

8:43

one of the oldest formats in television on

8:45

air right now and having huge success with

8:47

it at a time when scheduled

8:49

television, linear television, traditional kind

8:51

of, you know, appointment to

8:53

view television, is really fighting

8:55

hard to survive in the

8:58

face of such, you know,

9:00

innovation, this kind of digital revolution that

9:02

we are flying our way through.

9:04

It's quite something, isn't it? Yeah,

9:07

I think

9:09

the two elements

9:11

that clearly have

9:13

a place in Terrestrial

9:15

TV as we know it as we

9:17

grew up with our quiz shows and

9:19

sport because you don't know what's going

9:22

to happen next and it doesn't matter

9:24

if you've missed the one before because

9:26

you know you pick up and there's

9:28

nothing really to pick up you just

9:30

say oh it's you know cunt turns

9:32

on or the chase is on I'll

9:34

just watch that while I'm waiting for

9:36

my cab or whatever you know I'll

9:38

just wait it you know just watch

9:40

it I haven't seen it for ages

9:42

and you watch it you tune

9:44

in and it's enjoyable and I

9:47

think also for different

9:49

generations at each end of the

9:51

spectrum. For students, they love often

9:53

in TV and quizzes. I get

9:55

a lot of wonderful response about

9:57

jeopardy from students to colleges and

10:00

and schools indeed, who watch

10:02

it and love playing

10:04

it. And similarly from retired

10:06

people, I suppose, but

10:09

both of whom tend

10:11

to be the prime culprits

10:13

for watching daytime TV. And

10:17

you don't always want to watch something. You

10:19

know, it's like there's fantastic

10:21

stuff on the big streaming entities,

10:23

but it's very high calorie

10:25

and high nutrition and protein dense.

10:28

And sometimes you just want to snack.

10:30

You don't want the full, the full

10:32

thing. Absolutely. And that's that's a huge part of

10:34

the poll, isn't it? So when this landed on

10:37

your desk, your agent called you and says, Oh, Stephen,

10:39

you've been offered jeopardy. Was it a

10:41

hard yes or a boom? It's

10:43

been a while since you hosted Quiz. You

10:45

stepped back from QI, what, 10 years ago?

10:48

I'm not sure of the years, but yeah,

10:50

certainly probably around then. Yeah. Actually,

10:54

it didn't happen like you suggested to

10:56

talk. Well, it kind of did, but it

10:58

really didn't. I was over here in

11:00

Los Angeles where I am at the moment,

11:02

and I was guesting on a a

11:05

series called The Morning Show, which Apple

11:07

TV do. And I had

11:09

the odd day off and a

11:11

lot of days off. And one

11:13

evening I was dining with my

11:16

agent and he said, what do

11:18

you guys do when you're not called

11:20

on set and you've got a free day

11:22

and free evening? And I said, oh,

11:24

we're very dull, really. We don't go in for Hollywood

11:26

parties and that sort of thing. Launches and

11:28

premieres much. If we can avoid them,

11:30

we tend to stay in and watch Jeopardy

11:32

and have an early supper and go

11:34

to bed. He said, oh, you guys like

11:36

Jeopardy. And I said, yes, yeah, we

11:38

do. Yeah, it's great. How can you not?

11:40

He said, yeah, me too. Me and

11:43

my wife, we adore it. And we chatted

11:45

about it. And he said, did you

11:47

watch it when you were growing up in the

11:49

UK? I said, we don't have it in

11:51

the UK. He said, you're kidding me. But

11:53

he didn't say that, he said, you're shitting me. That's

11:56

our Americans talk, especially

11:59

agents. And

12:01

so I said,

12:03

no, we don't have it, which I've always thought was

12:05

a bit of a shame. Anyway, we then changed the

12:07

subject, didn't think much more about it. And

12:10

a couple of days

12:12

later, he calls me up and said,

12:14

oh, British TV broadcaster is very excited

12:16

about you hosting Jeopardy over there. I

12:19

said, what? I never said that.

12:21

He said, oh, you don't want to do it. I

12:23

said, well, I mean, it's not quite what

12:26

I meant. Seriously? Oh,

12:29

let me think about it. So I thought

12:31

about it and said, why

12:34

not? If it works, it'll

12:36

be lovely. If it doesn't work,

12:38

it'll be, oh dear, that didn't work and

12:40

onto the next thing. With any luck, you

12:43

know, but the crucial

12:45

thing was that ITV

12:48

understood that My love

12:50

was for the format of

12:52

Jeopardy as it is in

12:54

America. The

12:56

one difference is they insisted they wanted a

12:58

one hour show, not a half hour

13:00

show. So we've added an

13:02

extra category in each board and an

13:05

extra board. So it is longer,

13:07

but it still rattles along, which is,

13:09

you know, the first series was

13:11

good and we were pleased that it

13:13

all worked and there were some

13:15

wonderful shows, but we felt that it

13:17

could be even quicker. because I

13:20

think part of the pleasure of it

13:22

is the rat -a -tat as the

13:24

questions come out and you see the

13:26

speed and reflexes of the contestants and

13:28

so on. So I think

13:30

we've cracked that in this series

13:32

and I think it's really fabulous and

13:35

we've had some amazing contestants. This

13:37

one who's on at the moment, he's

13:39

23, he's a hotel

13:41

receptionist from Wales and

13:43

his range of knowledge

13:45

is absolutely astonishing. And

13:48

it doesn't seem to matter how old

13:50

he is. There's a thing anybody who's ever

13:52

presented a quiz or indeed who watches

13:54

a quiz regularly will tell you is nails

13:57

on a blackboard. The worst thing

14:00

a contestant can ever, ever

14:02

say is, it's

14:05

before my time. Out.

14:09

Go away. We don't want

14:11

you anymore. You're fired from the quiz.

14:13

Just get out. You know,

14:15

I mean, frankly, what

14:17

was the name of the emperor who

14:19

ruled France in the 19th century

14:22

and lost the battle of Waterloo? It's

14:24

before my time. Bloody idiot! Everything's

14:28

before your time in a quiz or should be

14:30

or could be. How dare

14:32

you use that as an excuse?

14:34

That's absolutely pathetic. I

14:37

mean, if I asked you a

14:39

question, what happened in the year

14:41

2041, you could legitimately say, that's

14:43

before my time, but nothing else

14:45

of that life. I mean, anyway. I

14:48

that you're making Anne Robinson look cuddly at this

14:50

point, Stephen. No, you

14:52

can see Richard Osman used to be like

14:54

that when he was on Pointless. If

14:56

someone said before my time, he

14:58

and Zonda would just

15:01

shiver and go... You

15:03

can't say that. Do

15:05

you know what though? You think

15:07

like him as well. I hear this

15:09

when you're talking now. You have

15:11

a producer's head, which makes you an

15:14

excellent presenter of a format because

15:16

you have produced. I mean, in the

15:18

introduction to this episode, I describe

15:20

your CV as something of a magic

15:22

carpet ride that unpacks what is

15:24

a passion junkie. And I hope that's

15:26

an affair and accurate description of

15:29

all that you are and all that

15:31

you've on and continue to do. Well,

15:33

it's a very charming one, Kate, and

15:35

I will take it happily. Thank you. Yes,

15:38

it has been like a magic

15:40

carpet ride. It's been very, you know...

15:43

It causes problems of a

15:45

strange kind. Like

15:49

a lot of people who've been

15:51

fortunate to get into the public

15:53

eye and pursue some sort of

15:55

a career in the media and

15:57

the arts that they love, the

16:00

creative sector, whatever you want to call it. I

16:03

get requests from people

16:05

and their parents saying, My

16:08

boy and my girl wants to

16:10

get into show business, wants to get

16:12

into publishing, has written

16:14

a book, has a YouTube channel

16:16

that nobody subscribes to. And how

16:18

do they get an agent? How

16:20

do they get noticed? I mean,

16:22

this question is obviously asked a

16:25

great deal to people. And

16:27

I am

16:30

in the awful position of saying, I don't know.

16:32

You have to think about this and

16:34

ask someone. who had

16:37

real struggle getting into show business. Ask

16:39

someone who's knocked on a lot of

16:41

doors. Ask someone who's had

16:43

to find out who the agents are and

16:45

where they live and what sort of

16:47

letter to write and whether or not to

16:49

accompany it with a treatment or a

16:51

full manuscript or a pitching deck or all

16:54

the other things that you read about

16:56

if you want to get into show business.

16:58

Ask someone who's been through that because

17:00

they will know. But I have had every

17:02

door open to me without. me

17:04

having to knock on it and

17:06

that sounds so such a dreadful

17:08

thing to have to admit because

17:10

you know one ought to

17:12

have struggled and it's deeply unfair

17:15

for me to be so

17:17

lucky is is just extraordinary

17:19

and You

17:21

also have to be good at once you get

17:23

through the door. I mean, your first French

17:25

win in 1980, you won. You took

17:28

a show that you had created

17:30

to the French and you won. So,

17:32

yes, the door may have been

17:34

easily accessed, but nevertheless. Yeah,

17:36

I know. And obviously,

17:39

it... once you're in that doorway

17:41

you have to prove your worth

17:43

and show that you're worth looking

17:45

at or listening to or whatever

17:47

but for so many they say

17:49

I just need to get that

17:51

door open how do you do

17:53

it and and as I say

17:55

it sounds like I'm either boasting

17:57

or just a sort of feeble

17:59

fake modesty or something but it

18:02

is actually just a practical thing

18:04

is that I don't really

18:06

know the answer because I

18:08

haven't had to go through

18:10

that process of applying to

18:12

a drama school law, applying

18:14

for an agent or... getting

18:16

a script read or all

18:18

that sort of thing, or

18:20

even really auditioning. Yeah,

18:23

but you did have to kind of

18:25

recover from being sent to prison to get

18:27

into the university. So, you know,

18:29

listen, hello. There's some early struggle in there.

18:32

I'm going to just remind you of that. That's

18:34

a bit of a hill to climb. And

18:36

I do work extraordinarily

18:38

hard, I think. You know,

18:41

I have a very

18:43

strong work ethic and I'd

18:45

like to think

18:47

that's obviously also something to do

18:49

with it. And

18:51

yeah, I mean, I'm not

18:53

going to be, as I

18:55

say, ridiculously overmodest

18:58

about this, but if you

19:00

want to help people. you

19:03

have to be practical. And

19:05

I would say, you know,

19:07

if you think about it, someone

19:09

who's had an experience like

19:11

yours and overcome it is a

19:14

better bet to go to

19:16

for advice than someone who hasn't

19:18

had that experience. But I

19:20

would also add that I think

19:22

things were easy for me

19:24

and for Hugh and for my

19:26

people in a similar kind

19:28

of mode of performer writer because

19:30

we wrote. And

19:32

I think when it comes

19:35

to performing, if you

19:37

believe you're a comedian or you're a

19:39

good comic actor, you

19:41

need material. And if you're

19:43

not going to write it yourself and create it

19:45

yourself, it's very unlikely someone will

19:47

do it for you. And

19:49

so it is understanding how

19:51

to be a writer

19:53

and a performer at the

19:55

same time and for

19:57

them both to come. naturally

20:00

to you as part of what you

20:02

are and what you do. You've

20:15

used a lot of other

20:17

literature that you've loved and inhaled

20:19

and then spun your own

20:21

kind of... take on it,

20:23

so be it Jeeves and Worcester, you

20:25

took me and my girl, for example,

20:27

to the West End, and then to Broadway,

20:29

and it ran for eight years. I

20:31

mean, you didn't write that, but you brought

20:33

it back to life, and that is,

20:36

and then of course, Wild, portraying your idol,

20:38

you know, and doing

20:40

that so, so well. Well, thank

20:42

you. And yeah, all this has been

20:44

a great, great ride. There's no

20:46

question. And

20:48

I think, I think also

20:50

I've had the, the

20:52

great good fortune to

20:54

remember and a lot of

20:57

people forget that that

20:59

I'm more of a consumer

21:01

than a content provider. That's

21:05

to say all my

21:07

life I've read books and

21:09

read plays and seen

21:11

films and regarded myself as

21:13

a consumer of these

21:15

things and being allowed to

21:17

create them comes out

21:19

of that. And it

21:22

sounds sort of obvious, but a lot

21:24

of people do forget that. They will

21:26

say things like, I'd really like to

21:28

write a film, and I'd say, well,

21:30

how many screenplays have you read? They'll

21:33

go... I haven't read

21:35

any. We said, well, they're out there. They're available

21:37

to read, and a lot of them are in

21:39

the public domain, or very,

21:41

very cheap, or you just subscribe to

21:43

one service. You can read the screenplays

21:45

of films you know and love, and

21:47

read screenplays of films you don't know, or

21:50

films you've hated, and see

21:52

how they work. you're

21:55

not born with a gift for screenplay

21:58

writing any more than someone is born

22:00

with a gift for Gothic architecture. You

22:02

have to look at a Gothic cathedral

22:04

and understand what a Gothic arch is

22:06

and how Gothic architecture works before you

22:08

can then design your own. It's

22:11

not something you're born

22:13

with. These are all

22:15

acquired skills. And

22:18

similarly with writing a play,

22:20

have you just not? gone to

22:22

a library or bought a book

22:24

of plays by Chekhov or Ibsen

22:27

or Shaw or Beckett or Stoppard

22:29

or whoever you admire and

22:31

just read them and see how

22:33

they're put together because and I

22:35

remember hearing years ago Elton John

22:37

talking to someone about that and

22:39

he said how many records do

22:42

you buy every week and

22:44

the guy who was successful so

22:46

they could afford to buy as

22:48

many as they wanted said, I

22:50

sometimes buy some. And

22:52

Elton Johnson sometimes. Aren't

22:54

you a music fan? I buy

22:56

hundreds a week. Well, of course, he's

22:58

Elton, and we know his spending is

23:01

legendary, but he meant

23:03

it. He goes... And that's why

23:05

you see him working with

23:07

young artists. who only

23:09

just stepped out of the cradle almost

23:11

and have just begun, but because

23:13

he's so alive to what's going on in

23:15

the career that he's made his own, that

23:17

he loves so deeply, he has

23:20

heard them. He's heard their demo tapes

23:22

or someone he trusts and said, oh, you

23:24

should hear this new artist. They're pretty

23:26

amazing. And he will listen. And he'll go,

23:28

wow. And then he'll reach out and

23:30

say, oh, I'd love to record with you.

23:32

And people go, what? But

23:34

that's, you know, I mean, that's

23:37

how it... that's how it should

23:39

be in a way and and

23:41

if you so and I feel

23:43

I've got I'm constantly addressing people

23:45

who are trying to start out

23:47

because I know how incredibly hard

23:49

it is it is for them

23:51

and so and you also really

23:53

want them to be able to

23:55

step into this Narnia that we

23:57

exist in right with that yeah

23:59

where everything is possible or that's

24:01

right and people constantly

24:03

people are in search of talent.

24:05

It may seem like doors are

24:07

slammed in your face and that

24:09

there's no opportunity to do it.

24:11

You know, how could I write

24:13

a pilot for a TV show

24:15

these days? Or if I do

24:17

just do my own channel on

24:19

YouTube, who's going to watch it?

24:21

Just a few friends. How will

24:24

it get viral? How will it

24:26

get noticed? All these questions asked

24:28

all the time. But it's worth

24:30

remembering that weirdly, whenever one goes

24:32

to a producer's office, head

24:34

of a studio, whatever it

24:36

might be, a streaming studio,

24:38

or a broadcasting company, a

24:40

network, whatever you call these

24:42

things. There are people

24:44

who go, but

24:46

where are the writers? Oh, you

24:49

know, they will have a desk piled

24:51

with unread scripts, and they'll be able

24:53

to say, oh, there are no writers,

24:55

because weirdly, there is this desperate. thirst

24:58

and hunger and appetite for

25:00

writing talent and for performing

25:02

talent, too. Who are we

25:04

going to cast in it?

25:06

Who's a young, funny girl

25:08

who's, oh God, we

25:10

need someone. Is there anybody like that? You

25:12

know, and at the same time, there are

25:15

thousands trying to knock on the door and

25:17

get noticed. So there is this sort of

25:19

strange disconnect in show business. There really is.

25:21

Yeah. The both things are true.

25:24

What is it that turns your head?

25:26

For example, when something like, it's a sin

25:28

lands on your desk. This is not

25:30

something that you've written yourself, but it's a

25:32

story that I know you felt compelled

25:34

to help tell. What is

25:36

it that will make things

25:38

pop for you? Well,

25:40

the names Nicola Schindler and Russell

25:42

T. Davis carry a heck of

25:44

a lot. Don't they? They've worked

25:46

together a great deal. And obviously,

25:48

Russell's very well known for queer

25:50

as folk and what he did

25:52

with... the reboot of Doctor Who

25:54

and many other things. And so

25:56

the very fact that your agent

25:58

says, I'm sending a script from

26:01

Russell Davis. In fact, it was

26:03

Russell himself who sent it to

26:05

me because I've known Russell for

26:07

years. So didn't even come from

26:09

my agent. And so naturally I

26:11

read it. And as someone who

26:13

was exactly the generation that is

26:15

being addressed here, I mean, I

26:17

literally left university in June 1981.

26:20

and moved to London, then

26:22

to Edinburgh, in fact, with

26:24

our group that did our

26:26

show in Edinburgh. But that

26:28

summer in London, before

26:30

going up to Edinburgh, that July, was

26:33

when I first heard about this

26:35

strange illness that only seemed to

26:37

affect gay people. It was

26:39

called grid at the time. Gay

26:42

-related immune deficiency,

26:44

grid. So...

26:48

know one just vaguely heard

26:50

about it and then within a

26:52

year and a year and

26:54

a half suddenly it was the

26:56

subject on everybody's lips and

26:58

the entire gay world and indeed

27:00

the entire world was talking

27:02

of little else it just became

27:04

this enormous and terrifying thing

27:06

so reading of that was you

27:08

know it was just amazing

27:11

it was it might never stop

27:13

crying while reading it you

27:15

can't it's just so so extraordinary

27:17

and and you don't get

27:19

a project like that very often,

27:21

something that Channel 4 are

27:23

prepared to get behind, requires

27:25

a budget, which is very difficult

27:27

for companies like Channel 4 these

27:29

days. Even the BBC, you

27:31

know, I'm sure you saw the wonderful Charlotte

27:33

Moore, the head of content at the BBC.

27:35

She was saying, you

27:38

know, if adolescents had come

27:40

to us, we would have had to

27:42

say, well, we'll cut it down. We can't

27:44

do it with the... the

27:46

one shot, all the rehearsals and they,

27:49

you know, having to... a

27:51

house for six months and

27:53

the school and the extras

27:55

in the school in the

27:57

second episode and all of

27:59

those things just made it

28:01

impossible for the BBC. So

28:03

even something like It's a Sin

28:05

for Channel 4 was a heck

28:07

of a punt and a really

28:09

bold thing for them to do

28:11

and shows great credit on what's

28:14

left of our broadcasting sector that

28:16

they're still trying to make things

28:18

that really connect and matter. And

28:20

the stuff that matters, you're absolutely right,

28:22

it's doing stuff that matters. And

28:25

another project of yours on your

28:27

CV that I was drawn to, sort

28:29

of moth to a flame -like, was

28:31

out there. And

28:33

I really wondered if it's possible that

28:35

you might consider going back and telling

28:37

that story again, doing today's take on

28:39

what it is. I

28:41

mean, out there was a two -part

28:43

doc, wasn't it, about what it

28:46

is to be gay. Yeah, about

28:48

why there is to be gay

28:50

in countries where you're not welcome.

28:52

Essentially, it was about charting different

28:54

forms of homophobia, I suppose is

28:56

the most convenient thing to call

28:58

it, around, or non -acceptance, certainly,

29:00

around the world, amongst different

29:02

kinds of gay people

29:04

at different stages of, if

29:06

you like, opening up

29:08

of gay culture and community

29:10

within their particular countries

29:12

and sovereignties. So, you know,

29:14

in Brazil there's a

29:16

there was such a strange

29:18

mixture of gay pride

29:20

marches like the one in

29:22

Sao Paulo which is

29:24

the most enormous parade I've

29:26

ever seen in my

29:28

life absolutely astounding and seeing

29:30

all the wonderful mixture

29:32

of trans gay people dancing

29:34

and singing in the

29:37

streets and then having to

29:39

interview as he was

29:41

then senator Bolsonaro who became

29:43

the corrupt and vile

29:45

president of Brazil for

29:47

a while. And hearing him

29:49

say he would kill a child of his if they came

29:51

out as gay. If my son

29:53

told me he was a queer, I would shoot him. So,

29:55

you know, having to speak to people like

29:57

that. And then in a country I greatly

30:00

Uganda, having to speak

30:02

to these pastors and

30:04

ministers who were fighting for

30:06

a death penalty for

30:08

their country. And one

30:11

of whom said to me and trying to...

30:13

to hold it together on my part.

30:15

And this man said, he

30:17

was talking about the rape and

30:19

the terrible behavior. And I said, well,

30:21

yeah, there is a rape crisis

30:23

in Uganda. And I've read about it.

30:25

And it's mostly the terrible rape

30:27

crisis is women being raped in particular.

30:29

Yes, by men. Young girls

30:31

being raped by men. The

30:33

incidences of gay rapes

30:35

seem Absolutely nonexistent, they're not

30:37

there. Ah, he said, yes, there is that

30:40

rape that you speak of, but at

30:42

least that is the right kind of rape. He

30:45

genuinely used that phrase, and I

30:47

mean, you can't begin...

30:49

To address this all you can

30:51

do is show it That's what

30:53

a documentary can do because you

30:55

know that the temptation for me

30:57

was to get into arguments with

31:00

these people or to have a

31:02

stand -up row with them and so

31:04

on but as we know from

31:06

the internet from social media and

31:08

so on When people don't listen

31:10

when people say things that are

31:13

so outrageous as to as to

31:15

you know rip the heart from

31:17

your body almost You don't don't

31:19

try and fight them just show

31:21

them for what they are, just

31:23

keep the camera on them and

31:25

let the audience decide what they

31:28

think of it and give a

31:30

voice to as many of the

31:32

voiceless as possible. So if you're

31:34

going to speak to someone like

31:36

that, then speak to this like

31:38

a wonderful lesbian girl I spoke

31:41

to who's more or less in

31:43

hiding. She was, you know, correctively

31:45

raped as the awful phrase is

31:47

by someone her family chose to.

31:49

to rape her in order to

31:51

stop her from being a lesbian.

31:53

I mean it just some of

31:56

the stories are beyond heartbreak that

31:58

child murder in Brazil having to

32:00

speak to the mother whose son

32:02

was tortured by gang for hours

32:04

and hours before being killed. I

32:06

mean these things so whenever I

32:09

hear people talk about the woke

32:11

mind virus and how wokeness is

32:13

destroying the world I just want

32:15

to remind them that just Yes,

32:17

there have been some people on

32:19

the left who have said preposterous

32:21

things and insisted on rules and

32:24

things in universities and elsewhere that

32:26

make you feel the world's got

32:28

a bit mad. Yes, that is

32:30

true. But compare that to some

32:32

of the suffering, misery, exile,

32:35

loneliness, mockery, shame and

32:37

general suicidal horror that

32:39

faces young people growing

32:41

up gay around the

32:43

world. as the rhetoric is

32:45

ramped up against them

32:47

as they become the

32:50

new Jews of the 1930s,

32:52

if you like, people on whom

32:54

a dictator can dump all

32:56

the fear and paranoia and all

32:58

the wicked desire to stir

33:00

up a population. It's there.

33:02

They're after your children. The gays

33:04

are after your children. The gays are

33:06

destroying our way of life. They're

33:08

from the West. They are what I'm

33:10

protecting you from, you know, and

33:12

thus the fascism rises in Turkey and

33:15

Belarus. Everywhere

33:17

else where these leaders

33:19

are using... That

33:21

rhetoric, yeah. That rhetoric,

33:24

yeah. It's deeply...

33:26

I mean, you're talking to me today from

33:28

Los Angeles. There's a

33:30

huge sea change

33:32

in conversation around LGBTQ

33:34

rights there. I

33:36

mean, you're in a very

33:38

liberal part of the country,

33:40

but... That doesn't extend to

33:42

all states. It certainly

33:44

doesn't, no indeed. And we're

33:46

aware of what's going on

33:49

in America and it's very grim.

33:51

My solution, as always, is

33:53

to turn to story because I

33:55

think if you try and

33:57

tell people about abstract ideas such

33:59

as fascism and progressivism and

34:01

nativism and thisism and thatism, their

34:03

eyes cloud over and they

34:05

don't want to hear it. And

34:07

why should they? Because these

34:09

terms are pretty meaningless and they

34:11

get thrown around like balls

34:13

of mud and they don't lose

34:15

any actual kind of applicability

34:17

to real life. Whereas stories which

34:19

are taken out of time

34:21

and context. They

34:24

can express truth in a much

34:26

better way. And

34:28

whatever you think of them,

34:31

a vast, vast number of

34:33

young people have grown

34:36

up on Harry Potter. And

34:38

they should look at America and

34:40

see that there is one who

34:42

should not be named. who

34:44

has begun a cult, a cult

34:46

of death eating rather as in

34:48

Harry Potter. This resentful,

34:50

bitter, angry, paranoid figure is

34:52

now in charge and wants

34:54

to destroy Hogwarts and the

34:56

Ministry of Magic and all

34:58

the ministries of magic and

35:00

all the magical world and

35:02

wants the death eaters to

35:05

take over and has no

35:07

love or respect for mudbloods

35:09

or people who are different

35:11

and wants to combine everybody

35:13

into destroying what once was

35:15

and was beautiful and did

35:17

its best, but was, of

35:19

course, flawed. And

35:21

in Hexith and Vance,

35:23

you can see crab and

35:25

guile, the knuckles grazing

35:28

the ground, these bullies, these

35:30

hideous low -browed bullies. And

35:32

in Lucius Malfoy, you

35:34

see musk. And

35:37

you see this

35:39

bullying and this destruction

35:41

and this darkness. And

35:43

so I would say what we

35:45

need is for the young to

35:48

say we have to be stout

35:50

and strong and loyal and brave

35:52

like Hermione and Ron and Harry

35:54

and we have to save Hogwarts

35:56

and the magical world for all

35:58

its faults and we can make

36:00

it better. But what isn't better

36:02

is this cult of death and

36:04

destruction. Radical.

36:06

They are radical, the right. That's

36:08

the thing. They pull things

36:10

up by the roots, and

36:13

radix is root. That's

36:15

what the word means.

36:17

Yes, it does, yeah.

36:19

They are disruptive, and

36:21

their disruptions is based

36:23

on that kind of

36:26

tech bro cavalier madness

36:28

that says, first,

36:31

break things, and then

36:33

debug. Just

36:35

destroy it and then debug. That's

36:37

not the way a wise person

36:39

behaves. But there's no fact at the

36:42

root of this. You talk about

36:44

uprooting and pulling things out of the

36:46

ground. They're actually pulling facts out

36:48

of thin air that aren't facts. They're

36:50

opinions. They're presented as facts. And

36:52

what's that expression, Stephen, that a lie

36:54

is halfway around the world before

36:57

the truth has even got its boots

36:59

on? That is where we live

37:01

right now, I fear. I fear. Yeah,

37:03

that's right. But

37:06

I love the comparison with with Harry

37:08

Potter. And, you know, I said in the

37:10

introduction to this episode that you are

37:12

not just known to many, I would suggest

37:14

that you are known to any because

37:16

most young, I mean, you are known to

37:18

the young because you are their gateway

37:20

into literature. You are their bedtime story. And

37:22

actually, that's that's really important

37:25

at a time like this, where you are

37:27

able to learn the story about right and wrong.

37:29

I think so, yeah. And,

37:32

you know, I think it's

37:34

no accident that things like

37:36

the Greek myths that I've

37:38

been involved in now for

37:40

the last seven years have

37:42

taken off enormously. I don't

37:44

mean my books, I'm very

37:46

delighted that they have sold

37:48

very well and both in

37:50

audio and in... and continue

37:53

to do so. But

37:55

there are also other books, novels,

37:57

stories are written around the myths and

38:00

young people are really embracing them

38:02

because I think When something

38:04

is set in the present

38:06

day, it is caught in the

38:08

weeds of our current cultural

38:10

discourse, what we're obsessed with at

38:12

the moment, matters of race

38:14

and gender and sexuality and the

38:16

history of slavery and all

38:19

these different things on the one

38:21

side and heritage and loyalty

38:23

and patriotism and duty on the

38:25

other, are all concerned with

38:27

these things. And so you write

38:29

a story set in the

38:31

present day. say, who's that person?

38:33

What does she represent? Oh,

38:36

I know people like that. She's really

38:38

annoying. She's vegetarian. Oh, God,

38:40

I know what he's like.

38:42

He drives a petrol hungry

38:44

car, doesn't care about things.

38:47

You know, everybody suddenly represents

38:49

a point of view. Whereas

38:51

when you a story in

38:53

Greek myth or in is

38:55

stripped of all that, and

38:57

you can write about honour

38:59

and decency and integrity and

39:01

rape and murder and betrayal

39:03

and all the really huge

39:05

subjects but without them being

39:07

applied to this identity or

39:09

that identity in our current

39:11

world they're not about us

39:13

now they're about us always

39:15

they're about the very nature

39:17

of who we are not

39:20

just the kind of particular

39:22

colour clothes we're wearing now

39:24

and so much of what

39:26

you present by way of your thinking

39:28

comes from the books that you read.

39:30

And something that I read yesterday in the

39:32

third volume of your autobiography, and it

39:34

made me sort of sit up and

39:36

go, you're so right. It's

39:38

the rereading of books, right? You don't just listen

39:41

to a record once. And,

39:43

you know, we tend to go, oh, I've read that. And

39:45

actually, you made me rethink so much of that.

39:47

Of course, there are books that I've gone back

39:49

and read more than once, but they're a handful

39:51

of them. It's not a regular practice. And

39:54

there's a learning from that. I

39:56

agree with you. Yeah. Not

39:58

all books will reward one in the

40:01

same way. Not because the book

40:03

is necessarily not a great book. It's

40:05

just... one's particular match with it

40:07

as a person oneself. For some people,

40:09

they'll go back and reread X,

40:11

Y and Z. But the person they're

40:13

very fond of and their best

40:15

friend, or indeed they're married to, will

40:18

read other sorts of books. And

40:20

it's such a rich, in the same

40:22

way that some people like tomatoes and

40:24

some people prefer cucumbers. It's

40:26

not a big, it's not

40:29

a very subtle point. But yeah,

40:31

rereading is as natural for

40:33

books as it has. Hearing

40:35

the same music again. I mean what kind

40:37

of person would say, I

40:39

love that track, but I'm never going to

40:42

listen to it ever again. Exactly. That

40:44

would be weird. And if you

40:46

think about it, a book will mean something to

40:48

it at different stages of your life, right? right.

40:50

That's the important bit. Yeah,

40:53

Dorothea Parker said when she was

40:55

reviewing a particular production of Hamlet,

40:57

and she said, it's an amazing

40:59

play, Hamlet. I go and

41:01

see it every seven years or so,

41:03

and each time I find that Shakespeare

41:06

has rewritten it for me. because

41:09

that's the effect a book can

41:11

have. Also, of course, you're

41:13

reading a book, yes,

41:15

to find out what happens next, what's

41:17

going to happen to this character or how

41:19

is it described, but you're

41:21

also reading it simply for the

41:23

experience of reading it, for what

41:26

it feels like to read that

41:28

book, where it takes you, what

41:30

it does to your emotions and

41:32

your feelings, how it makes you

41:34

feel secure or indeed... excitedly,

41:36

thrilled and nervous, whatever the

41:38

feeling may be. And

41:41

sometimes with some

41:43

books, you can't

41:45

wait for time to pass because you've

41:47

reread it recently and you want to

41:49

give it maybe a year. So when

41:51

you come back to it, you'll get

41:53

the full experience again. Do you enjoy

41:55

reading autobiographies? I do very much.

41:58

I think with

42:00

autobiographies of people

42:02

that I've that I

42:04

know about or have heard about and I'm

42:07

interested in, I usually

42:09

find, usually find the

42:11

most interesting bits of the

42:13

childhood and the growing

42:15

up and the first steps

42:17

towards whatever it is

42:19

that will make that person

42:21

worth writing an autobiography

42:23

about. So either into politics,

42:25

if it's, I don't

42:27

know, some extraordinary world leader

42:30

like... or somebody like

42:32

that. But if it's

42:34

an actor or an artist,

42:36

once they become famous and well

42:38

known and they know lots

42:40

of famous people, it becomes a

42:42

bit of a ticking off

42:44

the various different achievements, which is

42:46

much less interesting than the

42:48

first faltering steps, the disaster of

42:51

childhood, whatever happened to

42:53

the young person. and their

42:55

parents and so on. I

42:57

find that more interesting as

42:59

a rule. Yeah, and you've

43:01

written your books as such

43:03

actually. Well, I suppose because

43:05

I feel that a very colourful youth. Yeah,

43:08

I sure did. Yeah, I

43:10

suppose as a writer you make

43:12

the assumption that people will

43:14

have the same... same

43:17

responses that you do. In other words,

43:19

that they will be more interested in

43:21

me before I was just yet another

43:23

showbiz figure. And Rowan said, dot, dot, dot.

43:25

Although, of course, people do like a

43:27

bit of gossip too, but I'm not

43:29

the kind of person who's going to be

43:31

incredibly rude about the people I've worked

43:33

with and loved. So they're not going to

43:36

get much. You

43:50

had an experience at university.

43:53

As many of the guests on this podcast over the

43:55

last six and a half years have had, the likes

43:57

of, for example, Ed Edmondson

43:59

or Steve Pemberton, where you've met

44:01

your people purely by fate,

44:04

by virtue of the fact that

44:06

you all got into the

44:08

same place of education. And that

44:10

for you was entirely transformative. And

44:12

sometimes you have to sit back and go, could

44:15

you have made that happen or did that

44:17

just happen to you? Do you know what I

44:19

mean? Absolutely. It's so hard

44:21

to know. And you try and picture what

44:23

would have... I mean, in my case, for

44:25

example, if I hadn't screwed up my life

44:27

when I was 15, 16, I would have

44:29

gone to university when I was 16, except

44:31

when I would have finished my A -levels

44:34

when I was 16. I would have gone

44:36

when I was 17, which is probably too

44:38

young. But in those days, that's how you

44:40

did things. And it

44:42

would have been a totally different

44:44

group of people I would have

44:46

had to know. And who knows

44:48

whether I would have got on

44:50

with them. I might have been

44:52

much less confident in... you know,

44:54

creating stuff with them, sharing a

44:56

stage with them, you know, writing

44:58

with them, all those things would

45:00

have been harder and I would

45:02

now be, I don't know, either

45:04

a very happy, successful teacher or

45:06

academic or a very sad, embittered,

45:08

annoyed one, I don't know. How

45:10

can one possibly know? Those sliding

45:12

doors, they're there to

45:14

drive one mad. Things are

45:16

so contingent. but

45:18

all one can do is say gosh

45:20

how lucky that I you know I

45:23

was just looking at photographs the other

45:25

day of me on stage with Hugh

45:27

Laurie Emma Thompson and and Tilda Swinton

45:29

doing a sketch for the Footlights and

45:31

thinking at the time we were just

45:33

worrying, oh God, we haven't rehearsed enough

45:35

and the audience is going to be

45:37

in half an hour, oh Jesus, it's

45:39

going to be a disaster. That's all

45:42

you think about. You don't think, and

45:44

I shall be watching Tilda

45:46

accepting her Oscar and Emma accepting

45:49

her Oscar. It just doesn't,

45:51

I mean, I did

45:53

realise how talented all these people

45:55

were and how lucky I was

45:57

to be doing stuff with them,

45:59

but you don't necessarily believe that.

46:01

just because your friends are talented,

46:03

they're going to get Oscars. Many

46:07

have slipped to its cup and lip. Well,

46:09

yes, quite. Do you think

46:11

there's a truth to the fact that once

46:13

you are around such excellence, it forces you

46:15

to bring your A -game? You know, it

46:18

brings out the very best in you.

46:20

Yes, if you ask a chess player

46:22

or a tennis player, the

46:25

surest way to get

46:27

better, they'll say, play someone

46:30

who is better than you, but

46:32

not so much better that you

46:34

just feel useless, just a bit

46:36

better, that you almost feel you

46:39

can beat, but they just keep

46:41

beating you. And that

46:43

makes you better at chess, because you're

46:45

just having to work out what they're

46:47

doing that makes them slightly better than

46:49

you, similarly with tennis. If they're way

46:51

better than you, you've just got no

46:53

chance. And I felt

46:55

that with you and Amon,

47:00

they could do so many things

47:02

that I couldn't do and that

47:04

they you know their talent was

47:06

so remarkable that if I was

47:08

going to write a sketch for

47:10

them or with them it had

47:12

to be just amazing and yeah

47:14

I think your point is valid

47:16

that it's a huge advantage to

47:18

work with people talented enough to

47:20

to force one to improve oneself. Yeah

47:23

but also that they were very generous and

47:25

collaborative there wasn't like you know Nobody

47:28

hid their light under their own bushel. There was

47:30

a shared light. Yes. Also,

47:32

of course, it's like

47:34

a team. You know, it's

47:37

not quite true, but let's imagine

47:40

it's true that you can only

47:42

have one up front striker in

47:44

a football team. Well,

47:47

if... got a group of five people who

47:49

will want to be strikers, they're not going

47:51

to help each other that much. They're going

47:53

to get in each other's way. Whereas the

47:55

lovely thing with Hugh, me and Emma and

47:57

Tony Slattery and Paul Shearer and the all

47:59

there was that we all had just slightly

48:01

different things we were good at. So we

48:03

were able to say, oh, Paul, this would

48:06

be a perfect monologue for you. And

48:08

Hugh, you've got to come on with a guitar

48:10

and do this. And then say, oh, Steven, this is

48:12

a big wordy one. You come on and do

48:14

the wordy, wordy bit. And Emma,

48:16

you do the mix. of the song and

48:18

the crazy woman or whatever. And

48:20

none of us trod on each other's

48:22

toes or thought, I wanted to

48:24

do that one. Or it's not a

48:26

zero sum game. And

48:28

the success of one doesn't

48:30

diminish your own success or

48:32

your own sense of satisfaction. Indeed,

48:36

the reverse. So yeah, we're

48:38

very lucky. Well, an entirely

48:40

rewarding experience to have been

48:42

thrown together. Yes, immensely

48:45

so. Again,

48:48

there's good fortune, but one

48:50

can push oneself towards that good

48:52

fortune slightly in as much

48:54

as if you're a student at

48:56

a university and you love

48:58

the idea of going up, you

49:01

know, if you can

49:03

afford it these days to get to

49:05

Edinburgh and to do a show, then,

49:08

you know... Remember

49:10

the collaborative nature of it. I sometimes hear

49:12

people saying, oh, we're going to take

49:14

a review show, a sketch show out to

49:16

Edinburgh. Tom

49:18

is going to write it, Mary's

49:20

going to direct it, and we'll cast

49:23

it in a few weeks. I'll

49:25

go, no, no, that's, I mean, may

49:27

work. Don't necessarily take my word

49:29

for it. But all my experience says,

49:31

no, no, get together a group

49:33

of people. You all make

49:35

each other laugh. Write together. Decide

49:38

stuff you're going to do together. Maybe

49:40

go off in pairs. You know, remember

49:42

that with the pythons, it was Eric

49:44

Heidel wrote on his own, but... Chapman and

49:46

John Cleese wrote together and Michael Palin

49:48

and Terry Jones wrote together and then

49:50

they'd all come together and tear each other

49:53

apart and suggest things. They'll say, oh

49:55

yeah, we couldn't finish this one. Graham

49:57

and I started it, we couldn't finish

49:59

it. Oh, we'll finish it for you. Just

50:01

keep it all open and talking. Don't

50:03

say Tom's going to write the show.

50:05

That's never going to work. If he wants

50:07

to write a play, fine, the playwright

50:09

can sometimes write a play on the

50:11

red, but this kind of thing, it's

50:13

your company, your group, and act

50:15

as a group and do stuff together. And

50:17

two of you, if you have a little

50:19

double act, go and try it out in

50:21

the pub and then come back and try

50:24

stuff out during the term. Just keep trying

50:26

it and be a troupe rather than just

50:28

bring it all together as, oh, we're going

50:30

to do a show. It

50:32

has to be an organic thing that

50:34

comes together over a long period, the

50:36

longer the period, the more you practice

50:38

in front of an audience, whether it's

50:40

in a pub or on the street,

50:42

or just doing it on YouTube and

50:45

funding enough people to watch it. But just

50:48

got to keep doing it. You've got to

50:50

keep doing it. There's

50:57

a scene in the red

51:00

shoes. wonderful Powell Pressburger

51:02

movie with Maurizio and

51:04

Anton Walbrook. And Anton Walbrook

51:06

plays this kind of,

51:08

Lemontov, his name is, he's

51:10

a kind of impresario

51:12

for ballet. He's like Diaghilev,

51:14

really, the ballet roost, and it's set

51:16

back in before the war. And

51:19

this mother has a

51:21

very talented ballet dancer daughter,

51:24

and they're at the

51:26

Covent Garden seeing a ballet.

51:29

They go up to this impresario in

51:31

the interval and the mother taps him

51:33

on the shoulder and says, my daughter's

51:36

very, very good ballet dancer. Here she

51:38

is. Will you see her for your

51:40

company? And he just looks and

51:42

says, why do you want to be a ballet

51:44

dancer? And she says, oh, well,

51:46

you know, I've been told I'm very good

51:48

at it and I enjoy it. And he

51:50

just turns rather rudely away and walks off. And

51:53

the mother says, well, you know, very

51:55

outright that this man could be so

51:57

rude. And you then see

51:59

this wonderful shot of Mauritius and her eyes

52:01

sparkle and she walks towards the camera and

52:03

then it sort of cuts around and you

52:05

see she's walking after him. She taps him

52:07

on the shoulder as her mother had done

52:10

and he turns around. I've told you I'm

52:12

not seeing anybody. She says, no, I just

52:14

want you to know that I gave you

52:16

the completely wrong answer when you asked me

52:18

why I want to be a ballad dancer. And

52:21

he said, oh, really? Why? And

52:24

she said, because I don't want to

52:26

be one. I am one. I have to

52:28

be one. I can do

52:30

nothing but dance. It's what I am.

52:32

It's who I am. And

52:34

he looks at her for about

52:36

10 seconds. Come

52:39

round and see me tomorrow morning. Because

52:41

she's given the right answer. And that

52:43

is the right answer. You know, it's

52:45

like the old theatre joke. How do

52:47

you get an elephant off the stage?

52:50

How do you get an elephant off the

52:52

stage? You can't. It's in his blood. That's

52:57

the point. It has to be

52:59

in your blood. It's no good saying,

53:01

oh, I thought about, you know,

53:03

maybe going into an eco company or

53:05

a charity working in Africa. And

53:07

then I thought, actually, no drama school.

53:09

No. No. Yeah. It's drama

53:11

school or nothing since you were eight years

53:13

old. Really. It's just who I am.

53:15

I just have to do it. It

53:18

doesn't mean you'll succeed, but it's the

53:20

first requirement. I love that.

53:22

And then, you know, and then your passion for

53:24

it. Sometimes I've done workshops and things and

53:26

people have said they really want to be an

53:28

actor. And I'll say, tell me

53:30

your favourite five actors. And

53:33

I'll go, ooh. And

53:36

then I'll say, tell me the five

53:38

actors you really think are overrated, which I

53:40

keep secrets. But if you... you're

53:42

an acting student, you talk to anybody

53:44

that is a drama school, or people who

53:46

want to go to drama school, or

53:48

people who are just starting out like that,

53:51

and you'll say, who do you really

53:53

hate? And they'll go, ooh! And they'll say

53:55

someone, because they'll notice the mannerisms. And

53:58

when you're young, you're very impatient

54:00

of mannerisms. They'll go, oh, that

54:02

person, they think they're so, oh,

54:04

they're terrible. I can't bear how

54:06

everybody likes them, or whatever. And

54:08

that's another sign. it's

54:11

your world acting and theatre and performance

54:14

and comedy and writing or whatever it

54:16

whatever the particular art we're talking about

54:18

is yours and you've always felt it

54:20

since you were young that you you

54:22

you deserve a place in it and

54:24

therefore you have strong opinions about the

54:27

people who are in it, you worship

54:29

some of them, you adore them, you

54:31

give anything to meet them and talk

54:33

to them and other ones you think

54:35

you are so bloody overrated, you are

54:37

so mediocre and I hate you, you

54:39

know, and it's an overreaction and you'll

54:42

calm down when you get to your

54:44

forties, you won't feel quite so angry,

54:46

but it's important when you are young

54:48

that you do feel like that because

54:50

it matters and you're in a hurry

54:52

and you should be. And

54:54

also, you think they're occupying a space that

54:57

should rightfully be yours because you're better. There

55:00

is that sense of, not entitlement,

55:02

but that's the wrong word, but

55:04

it should be me. And

55:06

also Oscar Wilde, it's a lovely

55:08

line that I was so lucky to

55:10

be able to say. It is

55:12

one of the better ones, he says,

55:14

because it's not wildly funny. It's

55:16

just so penetratingly true. And it seems

55:18

so outrageously paradoxical, but it is

55:20

so profoundly true. when

55:22

he first meets Posey, Jude Law, in

55:24

the film. And he

55:26

says something about, Wild says, I

55:29

think Jude rather,

55:31

or Posey rather,

55:34

modestly, unusual for him, because he's

55:36

still glamorised at having just

55:38

met Wild. So something self -deprecating.

55:40

And Wild says, no, no, no, no, I

55:42

have the greatest respect for the young. I

55:44

adore the young. They have so much more

55:46

experience. And

55:48

that, of course, is a paradox. How

55:50

can the young have more experience young?

55:52

Yeah, they can't. But they do, because

55:54

they have experience in the world. The

55:57

young are in the world in a

55:59

way that the old are slightly out

56:01

of the world. I mean we may

56:03

have our hands on the levers of

56:05

power in terms of being on this

56:07

committee and that committee and having you

56:09

know met all these people and knowing

56:11

the minister of arts or having met

56:13

the prime minister or you know all

56:15

these kind of things that seem like

56:17

to be of the world but young

56:19

people are in the eating places, in

56:21

the entertainment places, in the places of

56:23

the world where things are happening and

56:25

boiling Where life lives, yeah. And where

56:27

life lives, and they get that experience

56:29

that I'm, it's completely close to me.

56:32

So... You're at home watching Jeopardy! Exactly!

56:34

Listen, I'd better go. We've got over

56:36

an hour and I'm supposed to be

56:38

somewhere to it. Thank you been wonderful.

56:40

Stephen, thank you so much for your

56:42

time today. Enjoy Los Angeles and whatever

56:44

it is that's occupying you out there. Stephen

56:51

Fry returns to our screens with

56:54

the second season of Jeopardy now

56:56

on ITV and streaming on ITVX.

56:58

I can also heartily recommend all

57:00

three volumes of his autobiographies slash

57:02

memoirs. Whatever you want to call

57:04

them, it is a fascinating read

57:06

of a life truly well lived.

57:08

And for more episodes with other

57:10

big thinkers and brilliant people in

57:12

their chosen fields, we have episodes

57:14

with Sir Tony Robinson, his former

57:16

Black Adicoster in our back catalogue.

57:18

There's Alistair Campbell in there. Edmondson,

57:21

Stuart Lee, Alan Cumming, Giles Brandreth,

57:23

Griffwish Jones, Jonathan Dimbleby, Reverend Richard Coles

57:25

and Reverend Kate Botley. Steve Pemberton's

57:27

in there as well and, in fact,

57:29

so many. All just ready and

57:31

waiting for you to hit download. I'll

57:34

be back on Tuesday with a

57:36

little something from the cellar. But in

57:38

the meantime, thank you so much

57:40

for tuning in and downloading what I

57:42

think has been a really special

57:44

White Wine Question Time. White

57:56

Wine Question Time is a stacked

57:58

production and part of the ACAST

58:00

Creator Network.