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1:08

And if there's anything we know about successful

1:10

movements to defeat autocracies around the world,

1:12

right? Successful movements to take down dictatorships

1:14

is that they build broad coalitions is that

1:16

the coalition may not be united by

1:18

anything other than their opposition to what

1:20

is currently happening and that is what is

1:22

That is actually a precondition for success

1:24

in many cases. And a so for of

1:26

what we're gonna have to do during

1:28

this time is recognize that some people

1:30

will be with us on some issues

1:32

that we care about and they won't

1:34

be with us on other issues or

1:36

other policies that we care about. about, and

1:38

we still need them as part of that broad

1:40

front for democracy. need them as

1:42

part of that broad

1:45

front for democracy.

1:47

and welcome to Why Is This Happening with me, your

1:49

host Chris Hayes. Happening with Me,

1:51

your host, Chris Hayes. Well,

1:53

as I speak to you,

1:55

the As I speak

1:58

to you, the

2:00

country is preparing

2:02

for the second.

2:04

of Donald Trump and the Democratic

2:06

Party and the broader, let's say,

2:08

central left, the broad coalition of

2:10

folks on the center left, ranging

2:13

from, you know, Noam Chomsky to

2:15

Liz Cheney, is trying to figure

2:17

out how they are going to

2:19

deal with, work against, maybe compromise

2:21

with this new Trump administration. And

2:23

there's been a pretty notable different

2:25

tune being sung by a lot of prominent...

2:27

Democratic politicians about Trump. I think in 2016,

2:30

to generalize, Democrats generally thought it was a

2:32

fluke. He had lost the popular vote by

2:34

three million votes, which is like not an

2:36

insignificant amount actually, and in fact, it's a

2:38

larger amount than he wanted by this time.

2:40

And that He was an aberration and needed

2:43

to be resisted from day one. And we

2:45

saw that with the woman's march that happens

2:47

the day after inauguration. We saw it. Democrats

2:49

skipping his inauguration. And generally this, you know,

2:51

this notion of resistance, which became a kind

2:53

of watchword. This time around, you have a

2:55

lot of prominent Democrats saying, we have to

2:58

take a different tack. We have to work

3:00

with Donald Trump on areas of shared agreement.

3:02

You even have Bernie Sanders, obviously, who's sort

3:04

of to the left of the Democratic caucus,

3:06

saying, I look forward to working with Trump

3:08

on capping credit card fees at 10%, which

3:10

is some policy that Trump, in his sort

3:13

of inimitable way, threw out at some campaign

3:15

stop, which don't hold your breath for that

3:17

to happen. You've got Tom Swazzy who's a

3:19

kind of centrist moderate Democrat in the Long

3:21

Island district that Donald Trump won, running op-ed

3:23

this weekend saying, we can't just resist, we

3:26

have to look for areas of agreement, you

3:28

have Rokana who's a progressive from California member

3:30

of Congress saying the same thing. And so

3:32

there's an interesting debate happening about, okay, what

3:34

do Democrats, progressives, liberals, people on the left,

3:36

that whole spectrum of folks, what do they

3:38

do this time around with Trump? Should there

3:41

be lessons learned? Is there evidence that the

3:43

previous approach didn't work because he got elected?

3:45

Does that mean new approaches have to be

3:47

tried? Should there be more? treating him

3:49

like a quote unquote normal Should

3:51

there be more should there

3:53

be more cooperation or for areas

3:56

of shared agreement? And

3:58

this is something that

4:00

I've been thinking about

4:02

too, not so much

4:04

about too those terms, but

4:06

even how we cover

4:09

him and how we

4:11

do it. you know, this

4:13

time as opposed to know time. as And so I

4:15

thought it'd be good to talk to someone who's

4:17

sort of been in the trenches of this who's

4:19

2016. in the trenches after Donald Trump. after

4:21

Donald was elected, there was this

4:23

group called itself Indivisible that that

4:25

this kind of manual. was

4:27

from former Capitol Hill staffers Hill

4:29

like, here's how to think about

4:32

here's how to think about in real terms, terms,

4:34

how to resist Donald Trump in

4:36

politics. And Indivisible became this

4:38

mass organization. It's very distributed. There's

4:40

thousands of local groups. And

4:42

they've remained very active. They played

4:44

a really key part in

4:46

defeating the attempt to repeal the

4:48

Affordable Care Act. Care Act. And they've

4:50

done a whole bunch of stuff since

4:52

They were very were on child separation.

4:54

They've been activated in the election, and

4:56

they're still around. election Leah Greenberg is one

4:58

of the folks that is

5:00

co of the folks back in 2016. And

5:03

she's the co -executive director there the

5:06

And I thought it would be good to kind

5:08

of check in with her about how Indivisible,

5:10

which is one of the biggest groups that kind

5:12

of came about in response to Trump 1 .0,

5:14

about how they're thinking about Trump 2 .0. So,

5:16

1.0 about how to the program. Great to be

5:18

here. 2. So Leah Greenberg. Will you

5:21

tell me first

5:23

a little bit me

5:25

first a little bit about your background and

5:27

how Indivisible came about the first time. time?

5:29

Absolutely. I'm a former congressional staffer, as you

5:31

mentioned, you and I had spent a lot

5:33

of my career before Trump was elected

5:35

working in the field of human trafficking. in the

5:37

field of human trafficking. So congressional staffers to talk to

5:39

advocates from the human trafficking field about

5:41

how to understand and how to move policy. And

5:43

after And after Donald Trump was elected, like

5:45

a lot of people, I was looking

5:47

at the work that I had done, and

5:49

I was looking at at. what was at

5:51

stake Donald Donald Trump was preparing to come

5:53

in. And I was very, very alarmed and

5:55

felt like we needed to move from

5:57

the policy work that I had been doing to

5:59

organizing. to build power to stop Trump and

6:02

what was happening. And my husband Ezra

6:04

Levin, who's my co-founder, co-executive director, had

6:06

worked on poverty policy before that. He

6:09

had the same set of reactions. And

6:11

we were looking around, we were seeing

6:13

this massive wave of people who were

6:16

organizing, right? Regular people who were out

6:18

there all over the country who were

6:20

suddenly looking for answers on how they

6:22

were going to push back and stop

6:25

Donald Trump. And so we took all

6:27

the lessons that we had learned when

6:29

we had learned. And so we took

6:32

all the lessons that we had learned

6:34

when we met the Tea Party in

6:36

our own congressional careers, a very, very

6:39

effective local organizing force that organized, that

6:41

focused on their own elected officials. We

6:43

figured our friends would read it, they'd

6:46

share it with their families, maybe somebody

6:48

would let us know in six months

6:50

that they had read it, and they'd

6:52

used it at a town hall, and

6:55

we would be super proud of ourselves.

6:57

That's not what happened. Instead, thousands of

6:59

people picked it up, they started organizing,

7:02

they started running, they started running with

7:04

it, they started organizing, they started running

7:06

with it, and suddenly we had catapulted

7:09

ourselves into this point. but a really

7:11

important one, which is it really matters

7:13

if you can get a bunch of

7:16

people. It doesn't have to be a

7:18

huge amount, 20, 25, 30, 100, who

7:20

are represented by an actual member of

7:22

Congress to contact that person or to

7:25

organize together and say, come meet with

7:27

us, to say, these are our priorities.

7:29

Like that. I guess at some level it's obvious, but

7:31

it's amazing how a-hard it is to do that and be how

7:34

often it isn't done by non-professional groups. There's all kinds of groups

7:36

that are, you know, creating this kind of agitation or lobbying from

7:38

a sort of top-down professional way, but actual grassroots, hey, me and

7:40

25 of my fellow members of your district are really angry about

7:42

this thing, and we want to hear what you have to say

7:44

about it, and we want to meet with you and talk with

7:46

you about it. That's right, and that is the core of our

7:48

theory of change of change, right. is that if

7:51

you organize locally you push with you push

7:53

with your elected officials, you can

7:55

either get them to listen to

7:57

you or you can often exact

7:59

some political consequences if they do

8:01

not listen to you and they

8:03

do not do what you're asking

8:05

them to do. them to effect is

8:07

true in in and it can it

8:10

be even more true on the

8:12

very local level. If you get

8:14

right? If people to show up to

8:16

a county commissioner meeting, that is

8:18

a is alarm for that county

8:20

commissioner. commissioner, right? And so. this kind local organizing,

8:22

if you know what you're talking

8:24

about, if you come in armed

8:26

with an if you puts you pretty

8:29

much automatically puts you top much of in

8:31

like the top 1% of your day. In

8:33

fact, what's funny is that

8:35

that basic lever is you can lever,

8:37

right, that you can kind of get a kind of 10x,

8:39

100x power response from showing up used

8:41

to often used to terrible ends.

8:43

of, you know, The problem with this with

8:46

this big debate we're having about

8:48

the inability to build housing the

8:50

that sort of nimby versus yimby versus yimby.

8:52

postures towards it. A lot of times just a a

8:54

few people show up to the planning meeting

8:56

people that are the people that are motivated to

8:58

come the meeting or people that people the new

9:00

affordable housing housing development. and so if there's five

9:02

of them there and they're like we don't

9:04

want this that like, we don't power that's outsized of the

9:06

insights I think for your group is that

9:08

that Progressives can use that to their advantage if

9:10

they could also get get or 10 people to

9:12

show to show up. 100% 100% you be a really You can

9:14

be a really outsized influence in your elected

9:16

are simply organized and you you are simply organized and you

9:19

are prepared and you show up to you you

9:21

use the tools available to you, whether that

9:23

is local press, whether that is social media,

9:25

whether that is organizing your friends, or whether

9:27

that's just calling into their office on a

9:29

regular basis and checking in on the status

9:31

of the thing you care about. on a

9:33

regular So when you think about, in on the

9:36

status of the this of viral moment. You

9:38

said you weren't, you were anticipating sort

9:40

of put it out there, maybe people

9:42

will use it, and then it became

9:44

this sort of the move on of

9:46

its generation in some ways. mean, it

9:48

was similar in some ways to move on,

9:50

which also kind of virally took off,

9:52

was distributed, have local groups, move on move

9:54

on obviously much exists much much a very effective

9:56

much a very This was organization. This was 2016. What

9:58

do do you think you look back on those

10:00

four years. What are the kind of successes

10:02

and failures? What are the winds losses? What

10:05

do you think? Oh yeah, we really nailed

10:07

that. Okay, we didn't nail that and I

10:09

want to take some lessons from it. Well,

10:11

I would start at the beginning because I

10:13

do think that we're a little bit memory-holing,

10:15

just how deeply uncertain the immediate period after

10:17

Donald Trump was elected back in 2016 was,

10:19

right? You had Democrats, including Democrats like Chuck

10:22

Schumer, who were talking about, well... you know

10:24

we lost an election is an election they

10:26

have consequences maybe we'll work together on infrastructure

10:28

that's actually a big part of why we

10:30

wrote the indivisible guide because we were really

10:32

disappointed and frustrated with the lack of leadership

10:34

that was coming from a lot of Democrats

10:37

in Washington in Washington in November and December

10:39

and we were thinking the thing that's going

10:41

to shake them out of this torpor is

10:43

having a big bunch of their constituents show

10:45

up and get mad and that is exactly

10:47

what happened right. Chuck Schumer had daily and

10:49

weekly and weekly protests outside his house, outside

10:51

of all his congressional districts. He had this

10:54

massive wave of constituent protests from Indivisible, but

10:56

from a lot of folks across New York,

10:58

that got him in shape and got him

11:00

moving back into a resistance posture. This happened

11:02

with a bunch of Democrats. I think that

11:04

we can forget a little bit, we can

11:06

sort of look back and think that it

11:09

started with the women's march, which was obviously

11:11

like a huge and enormous moment, but there

11:13

was a lot of people kind of running

11:15

around in circles for the first few months.

11:17

And so the actual fact that we were

11:19

able to organize, not just to save the

11:21

Affordable Care Act, but the first step in

11:23

saving the Affordable Care Act, which was getting

11:26

all of the Democrats in line, getting them

11:28

consistent and united so that it was a

11:30

fight between Republicans about trying to get to

11:32

the number necessary to pass it. That set

11:34

of achievements, I think, is the first and

11:36

very significant success that we need to focus

11:38

in right now on. That complicates a little

11:41

bit of the very quick history I gave

11:43

at the top of the show, which is

11:45

what you're saying is actually more similarity between

11:47

the initial reaction 2016 and now, which is,

11:49

and I think this is almost like, deep

11:51

into the DNA of

11:53

Democrats, which is which is

11:55

like, we got our

11:58

butts kicked. Let's work

12:00

together work together of first

12:02

instinct, right? Not the

12:04

instinct of Republicans at

12:06

all. Obviously, at quite famously

12:08

not Mitch McConnell, you

12:10

know, coming out after

12:12

Obama won this enormous

12:15

victory. enormous seats and

12:17

saying, Senate seats in saying, yeah, them, screw

12:19

them all. them all. So what you're saying you're saying is

12:21

that there was a lot of that

12:23

impulse early in in reaction to Trump's election and

12:25

that part of the the posture

12:27

was the product of

12:29

organizing that the grassroots the to not,

12:31

you know, to not. core you

12:33

know, compromise on these core things. and think

12:36

that's a big factor say there generally I would

12:38

say there are in fact a lot

12:40

of similarities now. about Again, we talk about

12:42

the first kind of big active resistance as

12:44

the March, but actually the first big active

12:46

resistance was a ton of people getting

12:48

organized to show up to somebody's house house.

12:50

week or the week, the after the election and have

12:52

a community meeting, right? People went and

12:55

showed up to their neighbors. right? They had

12:57

meetings in churches or synagogues. They got together

12:59

in local libraries, synagogues, they A lot of

13:01

the reason why Indivisible was able to take

13:03

off is because people had already started

13:05

to work. why on a hyper -local level in

13:07

early 2016, and so they were able

13:09

to pick up the indivisible guide was able what

13:11

they had already started trying to do

13:14

and called themselves to take and we were off

13:16

to the races. But that to already happened.

13:18

And we actually have seen that able to,

13:20

this cycle. We had We had a joint movement

13:22

call with about 100 organizations from across

13:24

the progressive ecosystem immediately after the election. This

13:26

was Thursday This was the election on Tuesday. We

13:29

on 140 ,000 people on that call.

13:31

out of that call, call our main

13:33

for people, you know, you know, we we

13:35

cried, we laughed, cried, tried we we to hold We tried

13:37

to hold space for each other's grief, but

13:39

our mean ask for people was to host a

13:41

meeting for your friends, for your neighbors, for

13:43

your community. Get folks together to process

13:45

in person. This is not a healthy moment

13:47

to be doom -scrolling on the internet. It's the the

13:49

of time you need to get face -to -face

13:51

with other people. people. And we have seen over

13:53

a thousand meetings come out of that process.

13:56

Those folks continue to be activated. Those

13:58

communities continue to be activated. all come into

14:00

us and asking what's next. So what

14:02

I would say is that there are

14:04

actually a lot of similarities on the

14:06

ground level in what is happening right

14:08

now to what was happening in 2017

14:10

at this point. That's interesting you say

14:12

that because I think there's a broad

14:15

sense that it's very different that it's

14:17

very different that people have checked out

14:19

that they're kind of like and that

14:21

and I do think I don't know

14:23

if you feel this way that like

14:25

the fact that he lost the popular

14:27

vote the first time and one at

14:29

this time has some profound psychological psychological

14:31

in 2016, it's like the country didn't

14:33

actually choose this guy. Like a quirk

14:35

of a constitutional system that is just

14:37

a terrible wiring in the walls of

14:39

our country basically glitched and we got

14:41

them. This time, you know, there's a

14:43

lot more of kind of, I don't

14:45

know, resignation, depression or like, well, I

14:47

guess this is what America wants. What

14:49

are you going to do? And what

14:51

I'm hearing from you is you don't,

14:53

at the grassroots level in terms of

14:55

the folks that you're in contact with.

14:57

You don't feel like there's resignation. You

14:59

don't feel like there's checking out. Oh

15:02

no, but what I would qualify there

15:04

is, I think that at... For the

15:06

lack of a better term, I'm going

15:08

to say elite stakeholder levels. There is

15:10

a ton of resignation, right? When I

15:12

am thinking about people who run institutions

15:14

that are kind of battening the hatches

15:16

and, you know, hunkering down and trying

15:18

to avoid attracting the Trump administration's tension

15:20

when I'm thinking about corporations that are

15:22

sending their CEOs to Maralago to try

15:24

and reach a detente when I'm thinking

15:26

about, you know, media institutions like ABC

15:28

coming to a major settlement agreement with

15:30

Donald Trump. who are thinking about how

15:32

do they protect themselves, there is a

15:34

ton of resignation going on. But if

15:36

you are looking at actual regular people

15:38

whose values did not change just because

15:40

we lost an election by 1.5 percent,

15:42

right? It is true that we lost

15:44

the popular vote this time. That doesn't

15:46

mean it's 1984. That doesn't mean it's

15:49

a landslide. Sometimes you lose elections. We

15:51

got a lot of people out there

15:53

who are still incredibly frustrated, incredibly concerned

15:55

and looking for answers on how do

15:57

they push back. Okay. so

15:59

that's one one

16:01

lesson was that

16:03

this posture resistance wasn't. organic,

16:06

that it had to be actually mobilized

16:08

and organized from the bottom up.

16:11

What are other things that you think were

16:13

successes of the model, of the indivisible model

16:15

and the sort of broader resistance model in

16:17

the first term? Yeah. What I

16:19

would say was challenging as time went on

16:21

in the first Trump term was that

16:23

the tactics, a lot of the tactics started

16:26

to stay the same and started to

16:28

get stale even as our targets were evolving,

16:30

right? So some of those Republicans who

16:32

were squishy early on and who were maybe

16:34

movable during 2017, during 2018, they were

16:36

a little scared. They did not know the

16:38

size of the wave that was coming

16:40

at them. They could see that something was

16:42

genuinely happening in reaction to Trump and

16:44

they weren't yet sure whether that was a

16:46

wave that was big enough to take

16:48

them down. in their Trump plus five or

16:50

Trump plus 10 district. Over the next couple

16:52

of years, they got a little bit

16:54

of a handle on what they were facing

16:56

and most of them reached an assessment

16:58

if they were in a safe Republican district

17:00

in particular that they were going to

17:02

be in more danger from a primary challenge

17:04

than they were going to be in

17:06

danger from us, from any kind of other

17:09

organized constituent opposition and that they had

17:11

more to gain from representing the far right

17:13

of their party than they did their

17:15

median constituent. So that's one thing that changed

17:17

was, the Republicans became a more aligned,

17:19

more consolidated force. Trump critics were pushed out.

17:21

Trump enablers were promoted within the party. There

17:23

was just less of the room for

17:25

actual constituency advocacy designed to change people's minds

17:27

as opposed to constituent advocacy that was

17:29

designed to share a political message that could

17:32

bring people to our side. And so

17:34

I think we were slow to recognize that

17:36

as that was changing, we needed to

17:38

think about our tactics less in terms of

17:40

how are we going to actually flip

17:42

these guys and more in terms of how

17:44

are we designing and telling the political

17:46

story that is necessary to build the broad...

17:49

our coalition to get these folks out. Let's

17:51

stay that because there are ways in which

17:53

Trump 2 .0 I think represents a larger

17:55

threat and is scarier in certain ways,

17:57

just in terms of what it means for

17:59

American democracy. and also the the

18:01

risk of of mismanaging the federal government,

18:03

whether that's terrorism, pandemics, et

18:05

cetera. But etc. thing

18:07

that's pretty striking is on

18:09

this narrow question of mobilizing

18:11

constituents around legislative fights, which

18:14

is the origin of what

18:16

you and Ezra were writing

18:18

about. about in that original document.

18:20

This is one of the

18:22

narrowest congressional majorities we've ever seen.

18:24

we've ever It's going to to be... 220,

18:27

215, and -15, and then 219, -19, 2

18:29

-15, they'll get a few seats

18:31

Stefanic know, at least DeFonic and

18:33

Mike Walls get confirmed and

18:35

they, you know, presumably they run

18:37

special elections, although, you know, we've seen

18:39

seen Democrats outperform in special elections

18:41

at insane at so nothing is - so

18:43

nothing is, nothing's a Those will actually

18:46

be really interesting early fights interesting are

18:48

worth contesting for sure because those

18:50

will be real messages. will be real messages.

18:52

But even if it is, know, know,

18:54

whatever it's gonna be. to be. That is going to

18:56

let's say. sledding is

18:59

gonna be a tough. to

19:01

sort of Mike Johnson, and

19:03

the ability to sort of

19:05

more available in the wheels of this. and progressive

19:08

activists than it to Democrats

19:10

and progressive activists than it was in

19:12

an years ago. Trump in

19:14

an election that Trump actually

19:16

won this time with a

19:18

narrower Well, majority. goes to that goes to

19:21

a basic point, right? He does not have

19:23

a mandate. a He One on on the basis of

19:25

himself from himself from the Project 2025 which he

19:27

is absolutely then going to try and put

19:29

into office. office, One of the constant challenges

19:31

that we heard from people who are running

19:33

focus groups, who are doing testing around groups, who

19:35

you doing testing around locked in message on Trump, But a

19:37

lot of these folks that we lost to

19:39

him, they simply didn't believe some of the

19:41

stuff that he said he was going to

19:44

do, right? That is not a stable coalition

19:46

once you're actually trying to enact your promises,

19:48

even if you do have a big to majority

19:50

when we stopped the first attempt to

19:52

repeal the Affordable Care Act in the

19:54

house They had Act in the They had a

19:56

They had a majority. Wow. I forgot it

19:58

was that big. Yeah, exactly So You

22:48

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22:50

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22:52

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22:54

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22:56

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Apple Podcasts. George

26:08

W. Bush, were you were organizing about

26:10

Mitt Romney. And Mitt Romney wanted

26:12

some big, big, you know, he's the Ryan budget,

26:14

right? Let's say budget, right? Let's say he he

26:16

gets inaugurated and they're gonna institute

26:18

the Ryan budget. It's gonna be big

26:21

cuts, basically the privatization of Medicare. cuts,

26:23

basically the you know, you would mobilize

26:25

against, you could use the against, right?

26:27

use the individual true playbook

26:29

for. legislative attempts.

26:31

I think the I think the

26:33

worry people have is, is is

26:35

the toolkit for mobilizing against?

26:38

politics. politics. at

26:40

the FBI at the FBI. homes

26:43

of raiding the homes of

26:45

political opponents, a special -

26:47

appointed by being appointed by

26:49

the General of the United States,

26:51

who starts an opens the investigation

26:54

into all the members of

26:56

the January 6 committee. 6th Committee. There

26:58

it just and I'm just saying

27:00

this for myself myself like what is

27:02

the the toolkit there? Once you once you

27:04

sort of slip off the known world

27:07

of democratic democratic politics where you're involved

27:09

in the sort of constituent action

27:11

that might be able to kill

27:13

a bad bill. to kill a bad bill

27:16

Yeah, well I would I would take a

27:18

step back. So we we titled updated invisible guide,

27:20

indivisible, a practical Guide to Democracy on the

27:22

Brink. And the thinking there was

27:24

that we should be really clear about

27:26

the moment we're in, the is that

27:28

we still have a have a a a

27:30

tattered torn democracy, but some set of

27:32

institutions that are functioning some of

27:34

the time. the We still have people

27:36

who represent us at the local, the

27:38

state, the federal level. level. We will

27:40

still have some form of elections

27:42

in two years. do Things we do

27:44

over the next couple of years will

27:46

determine. the the conditions under which those elections

27:48

take place and the the extent to which they

27:50

are free and fair, right? With all with caveats

27:52

about how free and fair our elections have

27:54

been to this point. elections have been to this

27:56

still are of working within a

27:58

basic theory of. of What do we need

28:01

to do to get to a 2026 that's

28:03

going to be the test point for the

28:05

ability to hold elections in the future? And

28:07

2026, we identified as this crucial hinge moment,

28:10

right? Because fundamentally that's the first time we're

28:12

having national elections and we're able to test

28:14

the ability to have national elections. That is

28:16

our first opportunity to deliver a very significant

28:19

rebuke to Republicans on the national level to

28:21

demonstrate. how deeply unpopular their agenda has become,

28:23

which we're going to do some work on

28:25

making it that unpopular in the meantime. And

28:27

it's also the place at which, you know,

28:30

the folks who have, the folks who win

28:32

in 2026 are going to be the folks

28:34

who manage the election in 2028. So if

28:36

they are people who are invested in liberal

28:39

democracy continuing, then we are in okay shape

28:41

for 2028. If they are mega election deniers,

28:43

then we are in very bad shape, right?

28:45

I think basically we have to start from

28:48

this fundamental question of what is going to

28:50

set us up best and what set of

28:52

messages, what set of stories are we telling

28:54

heading into 2026 that give us the strongest

28:57

ability to win and in doing so to

28:59

gain the power to make it to 2028.

29:01

It's kind of a game of what do

29:03

we need to do to make it to

29:05

the next step? Within that, I think we

29:08

have to be really thoughtful about how do

29:10

we organize against these kind of extra democratic

29:12

efforts, right? I think we absolutely have to

29:14

continue telling that story. I think we absolutely

29:17

have to be very visibly and vocally opposed

29:19

and united behind whoever those political targets are,

29:21

right? Is Liz Cheney my favorite person? No,

29:23

she is not my favorite person. And also,

29:26

that does not my favorite person. And also,

29:28

that does not matter, right? Because fundamentally, this

29:30

is a game of, you know, knock one

29:32

person out, see how the reaction goes, and

29:35

if it's not very visible, right? where we

29:37

know there will be very very intensive repression

29:39

is when we're looking at the pro- Palestine

29:41

movement, right? That was actually the target of

29:44

the most recent bill that Congress attempted to

29:46

move on a bipartisan basis earlier this year,

29:48

the nonprofit H.R. 9495. which was a bill

29:50

that would have given the Treasury Secretary the

29:52

ability to designate specific non-profits as supporting terrorism,

29:55

revoke their tax status. That was pitched and

29:57

targeted at the Palestine justice movement, but it

29:59

could easily have been used against all of

30:01

us. And so we are going to have

30:04

to as a movement collectively defend all edges

30:06

of that coalition because This is fundamentally the

30:08

way that they're gonna come for us is

30:10

they're gonna pick off people and they're gonna

30:13

watch for the reaction and then they're gonna

30:15

go for more. That is a really important

30:17

point. Let's stay on this because you guys

30:19

did some really important mobilizing around that bill,

30:22

which was kind of snuck in a little

30:24

bit. I don't think that many people had

30:26

eyes on it. And yeah, the idea of

30:28

like. from the sort of pro- Palestine, Palestine,

30:30

solidarity movement to Liz Cheney as the sort

30:33

of edges of this of this coalition, those

30:35

are, you know, very, very different worldviews, indirect

30:37

conflict with each other on the central questions,

30:39

right, the war in Gaza, American foreign policy,

30:42

etc. Tell me a little bit about the

30:44

mobilization around that because I thought that was

30:46

a great example of organizers, putting the spotlight

30:48

on something, telling a story, we did it

30:51

on the show, I think partly because you

30:53

guys had spotlighted it, and I was like,

30:55

oh wait, this is nuts. And other journalists

30:57

did too. I want to, you know, there's

31:00

a lot of people that were on top

31:02

of it. Tell that story because that was

31:04

a useful little test case, I think. you

31:06

know, as we head into this era. Absolutely.

31:08

Well, first, I would say a lot of

31:11

credit goes to the ACLU, who had been

31:13

begging the drum on this for a really

31:15

long time, including before the election, when it

31:17

was a lot harder to make the case

31:20

for a lot of audiences, right? Part of

31:22

the story here is that this was a

31:24

bill that had moved forward with pretty widespread

31:26

bipartisan support up until the election. this was

31:29

coming back up again in the house, and

31:31

there was a collective realization across the ecosystem

31:33

that this was handing an enormously dangerous tool

31:35

to a future Trump administration, that this would

31:38

have been a bad bill and indeed we

31:40

opposed this bill. before. It's not an appropriate

31:42

thing to hand to a Democratic administration either,

31:44

but it was enormously dangerous under an incoming

31:47

Trump administration with, you know, everything that we

31:49

know about what they're going to do and

31:51

how they're going to do and how they're

31:53

going to act. And so, you know, our

31:55

version of raising the alarm was really focusing

31:58

in on how many Democrats have voted for

32:00

this, how many can we knock off the

32:02

next time that it's coming up under suspension?

32:04

we were able to stop it because that

32:07

required two-thirds vote of two-thirds to go forward.

32:09

The second time they brought it up it

32:11

required a simple majority. We were never going

32:13

to be able to stop it even by

32:16

holding the entire Democratic caucus united. But what

32:18

we were able to do was drastically take

32:20

down the number of Democrats voting for it.

32:22

It went from, I think, 45 Democrats voting

32:25

for it in the first vote in the

32:27

House to 10 Democrats voting for it in

32:29

the second vote in the House. And so

32:31

in the process of doing that, we turned

32:33

it from something that had pretty broad bipartisan

32:36

support and was perceived as not particularly controversial

32:38

to something that was understood as a tool

32:40

for the Trump administration and that Democrats as

32:42

a broad coalition could oppose. be comfortably in

32:45

the mainstream in doing so within their party.

32:47

And now, as we are heading into the

32:49

next year, as we are heading into a

32:51

Republican Congress, it is totally true that they

32:54

may pass it in the House, and it

32:56

is truly will try to pass it in

32:58

the Senate. But now that we have turned

33:00

it into something that the entire Democratic caucus

33:03

or overwhelmingly the Democratic caucus opposes, we have

33:05

a lot of hope that we're able to

33:07

hold together the votes to prevent them to

33:09

getting that 60 vote threshold that's necessary to

33:11

pass. Yeah, the provision would have allowed the

33:14

U.S. Treasury Secretary to essentially, without real process,

33:16

deem any nonprofit a tax-deductable organization a supporter

33:18

of terrorism and thereby withdraw their tax-deductable status,

33:20

which is essentially the death penalty for a

33:23

nonprofit. I mean, you can't. That is in

33:25

some ways the sort of essential legal core

33:27

of what it is to be a nonprofit

33:29

is this tax status. And it was a...

33:32

bad for a million

33:34

reasons. mean, if anyone's

33:36

actually if laws to deal

33:38

with there's laws to deal with

33:41

supporting terrorism, there's tons

33:43

of them in the

33:45

federal code. It's not

33:47

like this is them don't

33:50

have the ability to

33:52

do that. Also the

33:54

sort of lack of

33:56

process and review to do

33:58

then the power that

34:01

it would give the

34:03

Trump administration to do

34:05

this, but or any

34:07

administration. and And I

34:10

think that was a

34:12

place the Trump it and

34:14

also kind of keeping

34:16

the but together. mean, to

34:19

your point about Liz

34:21

And I think that key is

34:23

to get people to

34:25

vote on these basic

34:28

principles of democracy right,

34:30

independent of their views on the

34:32

war in Gaza, for instance, you know, you

34:35

know, Israel's conduct of that war, that war, right, that,

34:37

or whether Liz Cheney is like a good

34:39

person or you would want to hang out

34:41

with her, want to get people to think

34:43

in terms of, people to

34:45

on the standing defend

34:47

basic process, democratic

34:49

norms, norms. the

34:51

rule of law of

34:54

whether the of whether the group you're defending

34:56

or the group you're defending is

34:58

one that you with. agree with. we, right.

35:00

anything anything we know about successful movements

35:02

to defeat autocracies around the world,

35:04

right, successful movements to take down dictatorships

35:06

is that they build broad coalitions. broad

35:08

And the coalition may not be

35:10

united by anything other than their opposition

35:12

to what is currently happening. And

35:14

that is that is That is actually a

35:16

precondition for success in many cases.

35:18

And so And so. of what we're going

35:20

to have to do during this

35:22

time is recognize that some people will

35:24

be with us on some issues

35:26

that we care about, and they won't

35:28

be with us on other issues won't

35:30

be with us on we care about or we still

35:32

need them as part of that broad front for

35:34

democracy. need them And one of the things,

35:36

too, I think to think about is

35:38

that public opinion is going to be

35:41

important, I think. I'm a real believer

35:43

that public opinion is a real thing.

35:45

to be It's not simple and exogenous. It's

35:47

not just like people feel a certain

35:49

way. It is completely constituted by all

35:51

kinds of different factors, things that are

35:53

happening in the world, the the information

35:55

sources people have, their peer groups, a a million

35:58

a million different things what we call

36:00

it. public opinion. But one of the things

36:02

I found encouraging was the Washington Post ran,

36:04

you know, pulled a bunch of stuff, it

36:06

was probably two or three weeks ago before

36:08

the holiday break, and they asked people about

36:11

like, do you approve or disapprove of, you

36:13

know, Donald Trump prosecuting political opponents, you know,

36:15

or prosecuting reporters? And, you know, huge majorities,

36:18

like, the worst, most anti-democratic stuff, huge majorities

36:20

of people, if you ask them, are like,

36:22

no, I don't like that. And that is

36:24

something to work with, you know? I mean,

36:27

we would be on what much worse shape

36:29

if big majorities were like, yes, that's good.

36:31

Right, right. Well, and I think I think

36:33

that sometimes we can be a little reductionist

36:36

in analyzing what is success and not success

36:38

with something like this, right? The administration has

36:40

a lot of power. They will be able

36:43

to do a lot of things unilaterally. Success

36:45

is sometimes going to look like stopping that.

36:47

It's going to look like, And the reality

36:49

is we're not going to be able to

36:52

stop everything, but consistently if we have a

36:54

story that we're telling to people about how

36:56

the Trump administration is out of control, how

36:58

it is corrupt, how it is chaotic, how

37:01

it is delivering for billionaires and corporations, but

37:03

not for you. how it is inflicting cruelty

37:05

on people around the country. These are the

37:08

kinds of stories that we're going to activate

37:10

people heading into the midterms around. And so

37:12

it's not necessarily are we going to be

37:14

able to stop everything that they're going to

37:17

do. It is, are we going to be

37:19

able to make sure that they, and specifically

37:21

Republicans in swing districts, Republicans in swing states,

37:23

pay a price for it. We'll be right

37:26

back after we take this quick break. You

37:35

know know you've got a in you. you.

37:37

When you take the next step,

37:39

you're going to make it count it

37:42

your career, for your family, for your

37:44

life. You can You can earn a

37:46

degree you're proud of with Purdue Purdue

37:48

Purdue Global is backed by Purdue University,

37:50

one of the nation's most respected

37:52

and innovative public universities. This is your

37:54

chance. is This is your opportunity. This

37:57

is your comeback. Purdue Global,

37:59

produce online university for

38:01

working adults. Start your comeback

38:03

today at today .edu. really

42:10

funny to bring up funny you there's

42:12

an because there's an that I always

42:14

think about I always think appeared some point

42:16

during 2004. was It was stunned by competent

42:18

political And I always think about

42:20

that line because it so perfectly

42:22

captures this thing, which is that this

42:24

can run a very effective political

42:26

operation and be really bad at

42:28

governing. and be really doesn't mean those

42:30

things don't actually correlate to each

42:32

other. correlate to joke. that joke I think think about

42:34

because there's a little bit of this of

42:37

this people are doing of people doing of like Donald Trump

42:39

for you know, as strange as he is and

42:41

as weirdly chaotic as it all was, they ran

42:43

an all political campaign, they really did, he was

42:45

an effective candidate, they ran an effective campaign,

42:47

and they won an election. A lot

42:49

of that, I think, was produced by

42:51

the macro conditions that you just referred

42:53

to. It doesn't mean that they're suddenly

42:55

figured out how to be good at

42:57

governing. was produced there's a lot of weird

42:59

sliding between those two things that people

43:01

have, you know, decided that like, oh,

43:03

he's gonna be good at governing this

43:05

time. this time. other thing people think

43:08

people are not... that that people are

43:10

for granted, and it's because no one

43:12

has experienced this in America. in America in

43:14

living memory, not since the late 19th century,

43:16

is that that when he's inaugurated on

43:18

January 20th, he immediately becomes a lame

43:20

duck. a lame duck. And this has not happened in not happened

43:22

in our lifetime. It's not happened in the

43:25

last century. Grover Cleveland in the

43:27

late 19th century is the last

43:29

time this happened. this happened. He ended up

43:31

being absolutely swallowed up by the

43:33

financial crisis of 1893, of which basically

43:35

destroyed his second term and he was

43:37

basically forgotten. Even though he was

43:39

seen at that, when he had started

43:41

his political you when big turning point

43:43

for post -Civil War, post as this politics. point

43:45

for post-civil war, post-civil

43:47

war, I actually think the lame duckness matters. So

43:49

I I wonder if you do too. I think people

43:51

lame very quick to be like, oh, he's I ignore

43:53

the if you do run again, yada, yada, I don't know

43:55

if that's true. He's also super old. I would be

43:58

more worried about that if he were 50. were 50. But

44:00

there is a gravity that pulls on

44:02

lame duck presidents that's different than first-term

44:04

presidents. I absolutely think it matters. And

44:06

I think it's a really important factor

44:08

in how we develop strategy, right? Because

44:10

fundamentally what happens with a lame duck,

44:12

what's different than in 2016, when you

44:14

had Democrats who were already looking towards

44:16

2020 and saying who's going to be

44:18

the leader of our party, but you

44:20

had Donald Trump who was definitely going

44:22

to be the candidate for Republicans. This

44:25

year, it's actually... a leadership vacuum on

44:27

both sides to some extent or there

44:29

is a there's a contest for power

44:31

on both sides for the future of

44:33

the party and this pains me because

44:35

I have done my fair share of

44:37

JD Vance jokes but I think we

44:39

have to take JD Vance very seriously

44:41

as a political force and as an

44:43

avatar of a broader set of actors

44:45

you know Silicon Valley folks like Peter

44:47

Thiel like Elon Musk people who believe

44:49

that they have invested in and bought

44:51

out this Republican Party and are intending

44:53

to use the power that they have

44:55

bought, right? So I think that we

44:57

have to be really intentional about how

44:59

much are we telling a story about

45:01

Donald Trump, how much are we telling

45:03

a story about Donald Trump, how much

45:06

are we telling a story about Donald

45:08

Trump and Republicans, how much are we

45:10

telling a story and linking JD Vance

45:12

explicitly to some of the biggest and

45:14

most damaging parts of what is going

45:16

to happen, you know, the laws and

45:18

put himself on the ballot again, but

45:20

much more likely we are running against

45:22

somebody who has been shaped and molded

45:24

by the post or the Trump Republican

45:26

Party and by this period and who

45:28

was doing it after a couple of

45:30

years of the factions contesting for power

45:32

amongst themselves. Yeah, the Vance point is

45:34

important. I also think the Musk aspect

45:36

of this is just a complete, a

45:38

totally new factor. Totally new. I've been

45:40

pretty obsessed with it. Maybe just out

45:42

of a desire for novelty. To be

45:44

totally honest, I've been covering this guy

45:47

for nine years and it's like, well,

45:49

this is a similar. I haven't seen

45:51

this one before. I mean, a lot

45:53

of things Trump does, you have seen

45:55

before, you know, and there's so much

45:57

of it is, he's just doing what

45:59

he does. I am personally shocked. genuinely

46:01

by how quickly the Musk thing went

46:03

zero to 100 miles an hour. Like

46:05

from, and not in terms of his

46:07

own politics, which I think were clear

46:09

for a while, but from sort of

46:11

playing with the idea of endorsing him

46:13

to, you know, to endorsing him to

46:15

putting a quarter of a billion dollars

46:17

in, to never leasing his side, to

46:19

being essentially a kind of co-president figure.

46:21

to the extent that when Mike Johnson's

46:23

negotiating a bill, he is telling reporters,

46:25

yes, I've spoke to Donald Trump and

46:27

I spoke to Elon Musk. These are

46:30

my two bosses and I've spoken to

46:32

both of them. And I think it's

46:34

in some ways ominous because when you

46:36

look at places like Hungary, where Victor

46:38

Orban has these very wealthy oligarchs, they're

46:40

aligned with him and they use their

46:42

power in private markets and their money

46:44

to do things like purchase opposition media

46:46

outlets. And it's very, it's ominous in

46:48

that respect. But it's also kind

46:50

of promising in the sense that I don't

46:52

think Musk is the same political appeal and

46:55

talents that Trump does. And I also think

46:57

his ideological vision is actually wildly unpopular and

46:59

is now seems much more of the driver's

47:01

seat than I would have even guessed two

47:04

months ago. I think all of that is

47:06

absolutely true. I think that, well, first of

47:08

all to say I resent how much of

47:10

my time I'm now having to spend trying

47:12

to psychoanalyize these. to absolutely maladapted humans. But

47:15

this is an incredibly complicated and weird alliance

47:17

that has developed, right, between two people who

47:19

are used to being each the center of

47:21

the universe. There's one set of questions around

47:24

how long can that kind of arrangement be

47:26

stable, even if it is suiting their interests

47:28

between two people who are this egotistical, this

47:30

egomaniacal. There's another set of questions around what

47:32

political opportunity does this open up for the

47:35

rest of us, right? You know, Americans may

47:37

have voted for Donald Trump, but they didn't

47:39

actually vote for a South African billionaire who

47:41

has a record of, you know, walking into

47:44

organizations and smashing them up to come in

47:46

and do that to the federal government, right?

47:48

mean organization. This is weird stuff. It is

47:50

not what people expected. It is not what

47:52

they voted for. Again, I do think this

47:55

goes to can we hold and deliver a

47:57

clear opposition message or are we validating some

47:59

of this stuff? There's, you know, there's limited

48:01

public pulling around kind of how popular Elon

48:04

Musk is and who he resonates with, but

48:06

I think he's broadly perceived to be more

48:08

popular than he actually is, if you actually

48:10

dig into it. He is not a person

48:12

who is actually that well liked across a

48:15

broad swath of places. He's also somebody who

48:17

is new to politics and thinks he knows

48:19

more than he does. Right? And I think

48:21

you saw that with some of the, I

48:24

think you've seen that sometimes with his political

48:26

quotes to date, right? He is. freely talking

48:28

about going after entitlements, after stuff that, you

48:30

know, most Republicans who've been in office for

48:32

a long time understand to be a third

48:35

rail. He is blowing up a budget deal

48:37

and, you know, trying to get what he

48:39

can out of it. In this case, in

48:41

the most recent case, he was successful in

48:43

doing so, right? Like a lot of the

48:46

aftermath and a lot of the analysis was

48:48

that Donald Trump did not get what he

48:50

wanted, which was a debt ceiling, you know,

48:52

at the cost of blowing up a bunch

48:55

of political capital before they've even taken office,

48:57

right, and demonstrating the weakness and the dysfunction

48:59

of the Republican majority, and frankly giving Democrats

49:01

an object lesson in what's possible if they

49:03

all hang together. So I think it's an

49:06

incredibly weird dynamic. I think it's one that

49:08

if we are thoughtful about how do we

49:10

how do we maintain our own discipline, we

49:12

can exploit. You know, one thing I keep

49:15

thinking about when I think about resistance and,

49:17

you know, Certain things happen in American politics

49:19

sort of cyclically. There's this notion of thermostatic

49:21

public opinion. So when, you know, a pro-immigration

49:23

leader is elected, the public gets more skeptical

49:26

of immigration. When an anti-immigrant leader gets elected,

49:28

they get more supportive of immigration. We see

49:30

this on a whole bunch of different things,

49:32

right? So there's cyclical trends. There's things that

49:35

are in response to macroeconomic, people don't like

49:37

inflation. We saw this across the world. But

49:39

then there's more secular trends, things that persist

49:41

election to election. And the biggest one we've

49:43

seen is rural areas moving to the right.

49:46

Election after election. Doesn't matter even if the

49:48

rest of the electorate is sort of pinging

49:50

back and forth thermostatically. Rural America is moving

49:52

further and further to the right. Election after

49:55

election. We saw it in 2018, where Republicans

49:57

actually picked up Senate seats because of the

49:59

nature of those states that they were running

50:01

in. And we're seeing this class realignment, working

50:03

class voters. increasingly not just white working class

50:06

voters moving towards the right. And I wonder

50:08

if you think about that in terms of

50:10

indivisibles organizing. And I know you guys have

50:12

groups everywhere. I think it's very easy to

50:15

kind of stereotype. It's like, oh, these are

50:17

all people in metro areas with college degrees

50:19

and, you know, resistance lives, whatever. But how

50:21

much you think about this huge problem for

50:23

the coalition, which is losing support among these

50:26

huge parts of the American electorate. Yeah, well,

50:28

I'm glad you asked that because it gives

50:30

me the chance to share one of my

50:32

favorite kind of underknown statistics about indivisible, which

50:35

is that we've actually got a really large

50:37

rural caucus and a very significant rural organizing

50:39

footprint. And if you think about it a

50:41

little bit, it's actually for some pretty clear

50:43

reasons, right? Because if you are in a,

50:46

if you're in a metropolitan area, you probably

50:48

know a lot of other liberals and progressives.

50:50

If you're in a rural area, if you're

50:52

in a pretty red area, the indivisible group

50:55

might be your social, it might be your

50:57

only social outlet, right, for people who think

50:59

like you do. And so. Some of the

51:01

groups that I'm actually really the proudest of

51:03

are the folks who are kind of holding

51:06

up the banner for progressive causes or for,

51:08

you know, even just center left causes in

51:10

really rural areas, you know, they might not

51:12

be doing organizing that we even think of

51:15

as super partisan, but they'll be doing a

51:17

campaign on why is the local hospital closing

51:19

or they will be running the townsgate pride

51:21

parade. They'll be holding up some kind of,

51:23

you know, stand for liberal values even in

51:26

places that are that are pretty hostile to

51:28

them. I do think it's a problem and

51:30

I think it's a problem of significant underinvestment

51:32

for the Democratic Party. from a lot of

51:35

our own institutions from a broad sense of

51:37

we need to do what is necessary to

51:39

get to the electoral math for this cycle

51:41

as opposed to we need to do what

51:43

is necessary to invest for the long term.

51:46

Recognizing that in a lot of these places,

51:48

are we need to do what is necessary

51:50

to invest for the long term. Recognizing that

51:52

in a lot of these places, are we

51:55

going to win in the next cycle even

51:57

with a real investment? No. But actually it

51:59

matters a lot if we're losing by 20

52:01

points or if we're losing by 20 points

52:03

or if we're losing by 30 points or

52:06

if we're losing by 30 points or if

52:08

we're losing by 30 points or if we're

52:10

losing by 30 points or if we're losing

52:12

by 30 points or if we're losing by

52:15

30 points or if we're losing by 30

52:17

points or if we're losing by 30 points

52:19

or if we're losing by 30 points or

52:21

if we're losing by 30 points or if

52:23

we're losing by 30 points or if we're

52:26

losing by 30 points or if we're losing

52:28

by 30 points or if Holding those margins

52:30

down doesn't matter a lot to winning locally,

52:32

but it matters a ton to the rest

52:35

of the state and to whether we're actually

52:37

able to get someone like Aruban Diego into

52:39

office. And so I do think there is

52:41

a long-term underinvestment problem. I also think that,

52:43

you know, we should be real that it's

52:46

not just about. is money being put into

52:48

organizing in these places. It's also about the

52:50

media ecosystem. It's also about the information environment

52:52

that these folks are exposed to. The closure

52:55

of local papers, the shift to algorithm-driven social

52:57

media, you know, the dominance of Fox News

52:59

in a lot of these places. It's not

53:01

just about in person, it's also about the

53:03

actual information that people are getting exposed to

53:06

and how they're processing it. Yeah, and the

53:08

one thing I would add to that is

53:10

like they are also genuine grievance and resentments

53:12

that are not crazy, which is to say

53:15

if you survey the commanding heights of American

53:17

politics, finance, and culture and say it's all

53:19

run by people in large metro areas with

53:21

college degrees, you're not wrong at all to

53:23

come to that conclusion. That actually is true.

53:26

that it actually is all run by and

53:28

if you feel like I am not that

53:30

I that and those people don't know me

53:32

that's not that is not a at all

53:35

the crazy grievance there's other grievances there there's

53:37

some uglier stuff too mixed in but that's

53:39

central thing which is not even about the

53:41

information environment it's not even about politics it's

53:43

just like yeah like everyone who is power

53:46

in this country at the biggest level at

53:48

the top of the pyramid are people that

53:50

live in big metro areas and have four-year

53:52

college degrees or advanced degrees, that's not a

53:55

crazy thing to think. because it's

53:57

true and also to

53:59

feel like some some

54:01

about that. that. Yeah, I I absolutely

54:03

think that this is a place where

54:05

there is some real tension the the ways

54:07

in which our systems and our institutions

54:10

work work and what we end up representing

54:12

to people. If you think about what

54:14

it takes to run for takes to for

54:16

example, if you think about Congress as

54:18

an institution, a place where as an 98

54:20

% of Democrats Democrats are currently holding office

54:22

have college degrees. And you think about

54:24

what it takes to run for Congress,

54:26

which if you do not have $200

54:28

,000, you will not be taken seriously

54:30

by the Democratic by the Democratic congressional campaign committee. Think about

54:32

how much of a barrier that is to

54:34

a nurse, to a teacher, to the

54:36

shop steward at a union where in an

54:39

area where you've got a compelling local leader

54:41

but they absolutely do not have the

54:43

social network. They absolutely do not have the

54:45

personal wealth that's gonna get them into

54:47

office. And so if we think so if we

54:49

think -bottom, what are the ways

54:51

in which our own institutions are,

54:53

you know, are, enacting systematic barriers to

54:55

people who are are working class seeing

54:57

themselves as represented in office, in office?

54:59

it's a pretty massive set of

55:01

questions. It's a great, great, great point. is a Leah

55:04

Greenberg is the co -founder and director director at

55:06

to It's a movement of thousands of local

55:08

groups to resist the GOP GOP agenda. elect

55:10

local champions, and fight for progressive policies. If

55:12

people want to learn more about Indivisible Indivisible

55:14

or this conversation, they want to sign up,

55:16

like where should they go? up like can

55:18

go to can go to .org. If you would like

55:20

to join or start a group, we will

55:22

be happy to connect you locally to make

55:24

sure that you find your in -person group so that

55:26

you can organize to resist the Trump Trump agenda

55:28

to build a better democracy. All right Leah

55:30

thanks so much, that was great. much that was great. Thanks.

55:38

Once again, great. thanks to to Leah Greenberg. got

55:40

a lot of that conversation. If

55:42

you want to find out more about

55:44

the about the organization you can go to can go

55:46

to .org. also You can also contact us. us

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You can email us@gmail.com..com. We've gotten

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