0:04

What do you envision when you

0:06

think of American -made goods? Maybe

0:09

you think of Ford Motors, Harley

0:12

-Davidson Motorcycles, or the automobile industry

0:14

of the Midwest. Or

0:16

the heavy machinery and factories of

0:19

the Industrial Revolution that produce the

0:21

products we need to keep American

0:23

manufacturing and farms running. Or

0:26

the ships and aircraft carriers used

0:28

by the United States military. Everything

0:31

I just mentioned is made

0:33

with steel. The US is

0:35

the fourth largest producer of steel

0:37

in the world, and much of

0:39

what is made here is also

0:41

used here. There is a

0:43

deep sense of patriotism and pride

0:46

in knowing these goods are made

0:48

in the USA. But when other

0:50

countries offer cheaper alternatives, it

0:52

can threaten not just our economy, but

0:54

our national security. There is

0:57

bipartisan support that the US

0:59

steel industry needs to be

1:01

protected. and that the

1:03

U .S. risks becoming overly dependent

1:05

on foreign imports if it

1:07

allows domestic production to decline

1:10

or vanish altogether. And

1:12

that's where tariffs come in. I'm

1:15

Gabrielle Sierra, and this is Why It

1:17

Matters. Today, we're sitting down with a

1:20

small business owner whose business could be

1:22

disrupted by tariffs. But first,

1:24

we're going to hear from a U

1:26

.S. steelworker about how tariffs are impacting

1:28

his livelihood. I'm

1:39

Jamie Sychec. I am currently president

1:42

of UAW Local for a steel

1:44

mill in Butler, Pennsylvania. First

1:47

of all, Jamie, thank you for speaking with

1:49

us. Oh, absolutely. Glad to be able

1:51

to share some of this. Steel

1:55

has been and continues to be

1:57

a major talking point for the

1:59

Trump administration and a key good

2:01

being protected by Trump's tariffs.

2:04

In his first term, President Trump

2:06

imposed steel and aluminum tariffs on

2:08

several trading partners. And now,

2:10

in this administration, he's imposed

2:12

another 25 % set of tariffs.

2:15

And while this move will raise the cost

2:17

of imported steel, which makes up about a

2:20

quarter of the U .S.'s domestic need, these

2:22

tariffs will help provide some protection

2:25

for domestic steel production. This

2:27

is where Jamie comes in. And you

2:30

won't be surprised to hear him make

2:32

a case for protecting domestic producers. First

2:38

out this close, I'm not an economist, I'm

2:40

a union president, or drain

2:42

-oriented electrical steel mill. But in fairness,

2:45

you're going to pay a tariff

2:47

if you buy a tariff product

2:50

or a tariff commodity. If there's

2:52

an alternative to buy domestically, there's

2:55

no tariff on that. So I think... one

2:57

of the things that you have to recognize.

2:59

If you're going to bash the fact that

3:01

something's tariff, is there an alternative?

3:04

Can you buy domestically? And secondly, the

3:08

tariff cost is there

3:10

to keep a domestic

3:12

manufacturer, domestic supply competitive.

3:16

Now, if they can eliminate one side

3:18

of the supply, the domestic manufacturer, then

3:20

they monopolize the market and that price

3:22

is not going to be as favorable

3:24

even without the tariff. So it has

3:26

to be there. It's simple economics. Can

3:29

you tell me about your background working

3:32

in the steel industry? When did you

3:34

begin? I became a

3:36

maintenance technician. In 1996,

3:39

I took an apprenticeship and just

3:41

worked my way up through, graduated

3:43

that apprenticeship and had about 20

3:46

years as a maintenance person. And

3:48

then I got more and more

3:50

involved in the local union. And

3:52

now this is my second term

3:54

as president. So it's been good.

3:58

I enjoy it. It's challenging to

4:00

say the least. Tell

4:03

me a bit more about what you

4:05

guys make. The Butler

4:07

Works, we make brain -oriented electrical

4:09

steel. We're the only plant in

4:11

all North America that makes this

4:14

product, and it's primarily for the

4:16

core material and distribution transformers. These

4:19

are large power transformers from right outside

4:21

of a power plant. all

4:23

the way up to the small bucket transformers

4:25

that are outside of your home on the

4:27

poles, everything in between there. So, you know,

4:29

some of the new expanding markets, like,

4:32

uh, electric vehicle sector, the EVs,

4:35

you know, every single charger

4:37

and charge station, uh, commercially

4:39

and privately is some part

4:41

a transformer. So power

4:43

goes into that, gets converted into DC

4:46

and charges the batteries. So that is

4:48

a whole other new expanding market for

4:50

that. How

4:52

have you seen the steel industry

4:54

change over the years? It's

4:57

just a faster world we live

4:59

in. So when there are global

5:01

issues or foreign trade issues, they

5:03

seem to take effect much faster

5:05

and sometimes more substantially. When

5:08

I hired in in 1995,

5:11

I was one of 2300

5:13

employees working at this facility.

5:15

But by the end of

5:17

2019, the bottom 100 people

5:19

working at this facility. we're

5:21

getting laid off with no

5:23

expectation of being recalled. By

5:26

December of 2019 after this layoff, we

5:28

were down to just over 800. That's

5:31

pretty scary. If

5:34

our plant didn't make this

5:36

anymore, then the United States

5:38

would be 100 % reliant

5:40

on a foreign supply chain

5:42

for domestic transformer core material.

5:44

you know, the transformer manufacturers

5:46

in our country would have

5:48

to weigh, you know, does

5:50

it make sense economically to

5:52

buy core material from a

5:54

foreign supplier or should we

5:56

just import complete finished model

5:58

transformers? Aside from

6:01

jobs and just how that all

6:03

shakes out, there's security concerns there

6:05

when you're bringing in vital components

6:08

like transformers. It's a very technological

6:10

age we live in today and

6:12

It's no surprise that, you know,

6:15

bugs or backdoor circuitry can

6:18

be in for remote manipulation

6:20

of these transformers, not the

6:22

least of which, but turn

6:24

them off remotely. This

6:27

is actually not some random

6:29

conspiracy theory. According to

6:32

the former FBI director Christopher

6:34

Wray, hackers linked to the

6:36

Chinese government have been targeting

6:39

critical infrastructure, including water treatment

6:41

plants, pipelines, and the

6:43

US power grid. Has

6:45

your plant ever been under threat of closing

6:47

or stopping operations? We were

6:49

actually slated to be closed, and

6:52

it was 100 % related to

6:54

foreign dumping. Foreign

6:56

dumping occurs when a country has

6:58

an excess of product, so they

7:00

sell it at a much cheaper

7:02

cost in foreign markets. Think

7:04

the China shock, which we talked about in our

7:06

first episode of the season. This

7:08

kind of dumping undercuts American businesses

7:11

and makes it tough for US

7:13

industries like steel, tech, and manufacturing

7:16

to compete. Starting

7:18

in 2016, that's when the foreign

7:20

dumping really started to take hold.

7:22

I don't know why. I don't

7:24

know if something came online overseas

7:26

or they lost some consumption. But

7:29

for whatever reason, you know,

7:31

some of the biggest players were Japan,

7:34

China, and Korea. started to dump products

7:36

like ours, grain or electrical steels, into

7:38

our country. And we

7:41

started to slowly feel the

7:43

impact of that. By

7:46

1996, China was the biggest steel producing

7:48

country in the world. And

7:50

now they make more than the rest

7:52

of the world combined. President Trump has

7:54

repeatedly criticized China for dumping cheap steel

7:57

into U .S. markets. He's vowed to

7:59

put an end to it in order

8:01

to protect American companies. Our industries have

8:03

been targeted for years and years, decades

8:07

in fact, by

8:09

unfair foreign trade practices

8:11

leading to the shuttered

8:13

plants and mills, the

8:15

laying off of millions

8:17

of workers, and the

8:20

decimation of entire communities.

8:23

And that's going to stop, right?

8:25

It's going to stop. You

8:29

know, they come in, they... the

8:31

market with their product at a

8:33

cut rate price they sell it

8:35

for a loss until they eliminate

8:37

the competition. It's definitely happening here

8:39

orders were down prices were undercut

8:41

to the point where it was

8:43

actually they were selling it cheaper

8:45

than we could make it. In

8:48

2018 president trump at that time

8:50

looked into an actually enacted terrace

8:52

because of that not just simply

8:54

because our plant was feeling the

8:56

impact of this. But the steel

8:58

industry and the metal industries as

9:00

a whole in this country were

9:02

all suffering by this. Although

9:06

China was just one of several countries

9:08

targeted by the tariffs, foreign

9:10

dumping and Washington's tenuous relationship

9:12

with Beijing goes back over

9:14

two decades. China has

9:17

been one of the leading exporters of goods

9:19

to the United States. Yet,

9:21

U .S. allegations across

9:23

multiple administrations about unfair

9:25

trade practices and strategic

9:27

targeting of American industries

9:29

continues to raise national

9:31

security concerns. For

9:33

a bit about the push and pull between

9:35

China and the U .S., let's quickly turn

9:38

back to resident CFR trade expert Matt Goodman.

9:43

The problem is that we have this

9:46

incredible interdependence with China because we made

9:48

a decision 20, 30 years ago to

9:50

encourage China to grow and we hope

9:52

that it would by growing be more

9:55

open and more democratic and that didn't

9:57

pay off. But the result of all

9:59

that investment in kind of integrating with

10:02

China was that we're now dependent on

10:04

China for most of the stuff you're

10:06

looking at is in some way made

10:08

or produced or partly produced in China.

10:11

And so we just have this huge

10:13

interdependence. And so if we put tariffs

10:15

on their products coming into the United

10:18

States, it's gonna hit almost everything. And

10:20

we're gonna pay a price for that,

10:22

literally. If you walk into

10:24

your local Walmart or any store, really,

10:26

you can see that much of the

10:28

stuff is made in China or assembled

10:30

in China and has a made in

10:33

China sticker on it. In addition to

10:35

the earlier Trump won tariffs on China,

10:37

And if it keeps going up from

10:39

that, you know, that price is going

10:41

to be passed on to consumers in

10:43

almost everything they buy, which leads to

10:45

the broader point that in all of

10:47

this stuff, there are tradeoffs. You know,

10:49

whenever we try to do something to

10:51

deal with a problem like unfair competition

10:53

from foreign trading partners, there is a

10:56

price to be paid somewhere. From the

10:58

perspective of someone like Jamie, understandably, there's

11:00

this concern that China is not playing

11:02

fair. We're trying to produce in an

11:04

efficient, productive way, and we're being undercut

11:06

by some of these unfair practices. And

11:08

Washington needs to do something about that.

11:11

Thanks, Matt. Back to Jamie. Can

11:14

you tell me a bit about

11:16

how tariffs have an R affecting

11:18

you? The tariffs that

11:21

were mainly focusing on it at

11:23

my facility are thankful in place.

11:26

Our executive order two thirty

11:28

two tariffs which relates to national

11:30

security measures so that it allows

11:32

a president. To

11:34

tariff items that are a

11:37

threat to domestic industries that

11:39

are crucial vital to national

11:41

security so without some security

11:43

or some protective measures for

11:45

critical industries like keeping the

11:47

lights on like keeping a

11:50

united states independent. capable of

11:52

sustaining their electrical grid and

11:54

just keeping us protected from

11:56

price gouging or outside influence

11:58

you know we have wildfires

12:00

in california we have. Devastating

12:03

hurricanes up the east coast

12:05

and golf coast all those

12:07

things massive flooding you know

12:09

takes out electrical grid suffer

12:11

from that if we were

12:13

at the mercy of a

12:15

foreign entity only to put

12:18

the lights back on or

12:20

you know the broad scale.

12:22

We're talking thousands of power

12:24

transformers. Sometimes it's millions of

12:26

people without power. So

12:28

you could garner some leverage if you're

12:31

the only one able to do it.

12:33

Sure, of course. And these

12:35

tariffs in that case have, in essence,

12:37

leveled the playing field. And thankfully, our

12:39

plants still here. We're thriving now. We're

12:41

back up over a thousand people. We're

12:44

working. We're expanding. We're making more

12:46

products. We're making R &D developments

12:49

and making better products today. That's

12:51

only because there's a potential expectation

12:53

for a market to be there

12:55

in the future. Although

12:59

Jamie's plant has seen a resurgence

13:01

in jobs since the enactment of

13:03

Trump's 232 tariffs in 2018, the

13:06

steel industry at large hasn't exactly

13:08

bounced back. In fact,

13:11

steel manufacturing in the U .S.

13:13

has continued to decline. with many

13:15

studies showing that tariffs have actually

13:18

led to a 32 % decrease

13:20

in steel productivity since 2017. There's

13:23

a trade -off at play here, while

13:25

the two 32 tariffs directly created over

13:28

a thousand American jobs in the steel

13:30

sector. This form of

13:32

protectionism also comes at the cost

13:34

of 75 ,000 jobs in industries

13:37

that use steel and had to

13:39

pay higher prices. Has

13:43

there been consistency in support

13:45

of the 232 tariffs across

13:47

administrations? There absolutely has.

13:50

These last two presidential elections we

13:52

saw were pretty contentious and there

13:55

wasn't a lot of middle ground

13:57

that the two sides agreed on.

14:00

But these tariffs, 232

14:02

in particular, section 232

14:04

tariffs, protecting steel and

14:06

aluminum products. They did

14:08

agree on the Biden

14:10

administration actually upheld reviewed and

14:13

upheld the executive 232

14:15

tariffs twice during the administration.

14:17

And I think that

14:19

speaks volumes. You

14:21

know, everybody who knows or looks into

14:24

this sees that it's vital. This is

14:26

something that has to happen and we

14:28

need these protections. So not all tariffs

14:31

are created equal. Absolutely

14:33

not, no. Okay,

14:36

let's say that all of the

14:39

steel is made here then. Is

14:41

that the solution? I think

14:43

it very well could be. I

14:46

don't believe that the intention of

14:48

the American market is to produce

14:50

enough steel for the entire world

14:52

and then try to supply the

14:55

entire world with steel. Steel is

14:57

heavy. It's hard to come

14:59

by. It's hard to make the products

15:01

going in or heavy. The products going

15:03

out are heavy. So it's not cheap,

15:05

it's not free, and it's not easy

15:07

to get big, heavy items like steel

15:10

coils or steel slabs halfway around the

15:12

world. So I believe

15:14

that, you know, for everyone's

15:16

sake, even the foreign competition,

15:19

they want to be their own

15:22

domestic supplier first and foremost, but

15:24

then they have excess capacity because

15:26

they, you know, let's face it,

15:29

America's got a great economy. Everybody

15:31

wants to... a part of. We

15:34

have a tremendous amount

15:36

of infrastructure and purchasing

15:38

investment money available through

15:40

several of the actions

15:42

over the last six

15:44

years. There's federal

15:46

money available to the tune

15:49

of like $68 billion for

15:51

our electrical infrastructure or our

15:53

nation's grid. The

15:55

bulk of our grid is more than

15:57

30 years old. The average age, I

15:59

think, is 33 years old, give or

16:01

take. It's aging, and you

16:04

need to replace it. When you do,

16:06

you want it to be more substantial

16:08

and more efficient, if possible. And that's

16:10

why that money is there. So we're

16:12

ready to do that. Not to mention

16:14

that with AI coming online and data

16:16

centers coming online, it's going to put

16:18

a demand on our grid. Generative

16:21

AI puts immense demand on

16:23

our electrical grid. Training a

16:25

large language model, like chat

16:28

GPT for example, is estimated

16:30

to use just under 1300

16:32

megawatts of electricity per hour.

16:34

That's about as much power

16:37

consumed by 130 American homes

16:39

every year. So

16:41

as artificial intelligence and new data centers

16:43

continue to consume more and more of

16:45

our power grid, our electrical infrastructure needs

16:47

to be able to hold up. It's

16:51

just anything electric. is

16:54

going to grow. So by 2035,

16:56

there's probably going to be two

16:58

and a half times the electric

17:00

power consumption in the United States,

17:02

provided that the grid's there to

17:05

supply it. To

17:08

wrap up, what is one thing

17:10

that you would like to continue

17:12

to reiterate to lawmakers about the

17:14

steel market and its role in

17:16

the US? I

17:19

think if there was just

17:21

a general consideration when we're

17:23

talking about not even just

17:25

the steel industry but i

17:27

think laws and rulemaking in

17:30

general is look at the

17:32

big picture how does this

17:34

impact our country as a

17:36

whole is this better so

17:38

does this not just make

17:41

us more efficient or more

17:43

independent or more economically sound

17:45

or efficient. How does

17:48

this affect jobs. American

17:50

security, American labor,

17:53

American energy independence. But

17:56

I think just by and large,

17:58

it boils down to culture. You

18:02

know, when I was a kid, I remember my parents

18:04

and it was a big push for, you know, you

18:06

got to buy American. You don't to

18:08

buy a foreign car. You want to buy an

18:10

American car. And I think there has to be

18:13

some sentiment. Steel

18:16

is just one facet of a

18:19

much bigger tangled web of supply

18:21

chains that feel the snowball effect

18:24

of tariffs, impacting everyone from large

18:26

-scale manufacturers to small boutique businesses

18:28

trying to stay afloat. So, let's

18:31

zoom out for a second and

18:33

think about some other American -made

18:35

products. How about

18:38

Dog Gelato? Okay,

18:41

sounds odd, we know, but hear us out.

18:45

The American dream begins with a

18:47

small business owner. The mom and

18:49

pop stores, the inventors, and

18:51

the people who come here with an idea to

18:53

make it big. But what

18:55

if on their way to success, tariffs

18:57

are put on imported materials, their

19:00

costs begin to rise, and potential new

19:02

markets are closed off? This

19:04

brings us to Debbie Hendricks.

19:07

She founded Swell Gelato, which

19:09

makes gelato for dogs. And

19:12

her business has been an absolute hit

19:14

here in the States, with Swell Gelato

19:16

being sold in over a thousand stores

19:18

across the country. But tariffs

19:21

have affected not only the import of

19:23

her key ingredient, but access

19:25

to new export markets abroad.

19:31

Hi, I'm Debbie. Debbie

19:33

Hendricks. I own Swell Gelato

19:35

for dogs. So we make

19:38

delicious frozen treats for the

19:40

dogs. Amazing. So

19:43

Debbie, tell us a bit about you.

19:45

What is your business? When did it

19:47

begin? Well, it

19:49

kind of started, it

19:51

was a bit of a fluke. I

19:54

was in between corporate carriers

19:56

basically in 2016. And

19:59

so that was in the summer. And I

20:01

decided I wanted to take the whole summer

20:03

off and only do fun things. And I

20:05

love dogs, of course, and I love making

20:07

gelato. So I had this idea of getting

20:09

like a little gelato cart and going to

20:11

a local dog park and just selling the

20:13

gelato that I was already making for my

20:15

own dogs at home. Because, you know, what

20:17

better way to surround yourself with dogs than

20:19

being in a dog park? right? And

20:22

so that was just going to be

20:24

a summer thing. And it was such

20:26

a fun experience. And it had such

20:28

a great reaction from the customers that

20:30

when the summer was over, I did

20:32

actually start interviewing for that second corporate

20:34

career. But like something inside me just

20:36

said, if you don't really go for

20:38

this, you might always regret it. And

20:40

so I kind of went for it.

20:42

And here we are now almost nine

20:44

years later, selling

20:46

swell gelatoes all over the country. As

20:49

a gelato lover and also a dog

20:51

owner, I must know, what

20:53

is dog gelato? Like, how is it

20:55

different from human gelato? Is it just

20:57

that there's no sugar? So

20:59

we use only dog -friendly ingredients, actually.

21:02

And so ours is, because dogs don't

21:04

do so well with dairy, so we

21:06

use coconut milk. But it's all very

21:08

limited ingredients and I taste test everything

21:11

because to me it's important that it's

21:13

delicious. I never take the approach of

21:15

like it's just for dogs. I want

21:17

to make it as delicious as possible

21:20

but only with dog friendly and very

21:22

limited ingredients. Where

21:24

are you getting your coconut milk from?

21:28

I have sourced it before from Thailand

21:30

or the Philippines. So far it's all

21:32

been Asia. And how

21:34

much coconut milk are you importing

21:36

per batch, a whole shipping container, not

21:38

per batch, but like, because I have

21:40

to import it, you know, by volume,

21:42

right? So we import a whole shipping

21:45

container at one time. And every time

21:47

that that arrives, we're like, Oh, my

21:49

goodness, that is so much coconut milk.

21:51

But then we go through it in

21:53

a year. So and the next container

21:55

is actually supposed to arrive in a

21:57

couple of weeks. So that'll be an

21:59

exciting time again. Wow. Okay.

22:01

So what challenges, if any, has the

22:03

company faced in the past few years?

22:06

Well, here's the thing. We

22:08

are just now starting to export to

22:11

Canada. We've never exported before. We're two

22:13

months out of shipping our first shipment.

22:16

So it's already a very new process

22:18

for us. We are a small company.

22:20

It's basically just me, Dion,

22:22

who is our strategic project manager. Then I

22:25

have Kenzie, who is our retail relations manager.

22:27

And then we have a production team, but

22:29

that's it, right? And so

22:31

we are basically all

22:34

jackies of all trades we call ourselves the

22:36

swell sisters you know making it happen but

22:38

we do it all ourselves and we just

22:40

have to learn as we go and I

22:42

think I mean it's definitely been huge learning

22:44

and exciting for me to now come into

22:46

a small startup company who really is like

22:49

we started from scratch about as as scratching

22:51

as it gets you know from the dog

22:53

park to my own kitchen to selling my

22:55

house so I could buy my own factory

22:57

so we can make everything in house So

23:00

taking a big leap like exporting is a

23:02

little bit scary in itself. Doing

23:04

it in a year like this,

23:06

when there is so much fluctuation,

23:09

what is going to happen with the tariffs? You know, what is not

23:11

going to happen? Is it going to change? How is it going to

23:14

impact me? It definitely makes

23:16

things a lot more stressful and challenging, I

23:18

think. The fact that

23:20

my main ingredient, which is coconut milk,

23:22

is imported obviously always makes things a

23:24

little bit stressful because, you know, shipping

23:27

containers can be delayed. They

23:29

can get lost. You

23:31

know, they can be held at customs. There's all

23:33

kinds of things that can go wrong with that.

23:36

Not only that, but tariffs on

23:38

coconut milk coming in from Thailand

23:41

or the Philippines could make one

23:43

of Debbie's key ingredients a lot

23:45

more expensive to import. In

23:47

April of this year, Thailand was

23:50

among the Southeast Asian nations hardest

23:52

hit by U .S. President Donald

23:54

Trump's measures, facing a 36 percent

23:57

tariff. if a reduction cannot be

23:59

negotiated before July. Debbie,

24:02

what about when it comes to getting

24:04

your coconut milk somewhere else? Like, are

24:07

there alternative places in the US to

24:09

get the coconut milk? Not in the

24:11

US. We do not produce enough coconut

24:13

milk. The only place that really has

24:15

coconut trees is Hawaii, and one that

24:17

would be really expensive, and they just

24:19

don't produce enough. It might be worth

24:21

exploring South America as a backup and

24:23

see what they have to offer. you

24:26

know, it's probably a strategy that we

24:28

should be behind for the coming years.

24:30

So we're not putting all our eggs

24:32

in the Asia basket. That

24:35

probably would be a prudent thing to do. Coconuts

24:38

are produced in over 90

24:40

countries. However, production is concentrated

24:42

in Asia, which contributes over

24:44

80 % of global supply.

24:46

Asia also dominates the international

24:49

coconut trade with countries like

24:51

Indonesia, the Philippines and Thailand

24:53

being top exporters. It's

24:56

interesting because I think the idea

24:59

of tariffs, one of them, is

25:01

that it protects small American businesses,

25:03

small American producers. What do you

25:06

think the disconnect is there between

25:08

saying this should be something that's

25:10

helping you and actually might wind

25:13

up hurting you? Well,

25:16

I just I I'm a big fan

25:18

of keeping things simple keep your thinking

25:21

simple keep your strategy simple And so

25:23

the way I look at it is

25:25

I just do not see how an

25:28

eventual price raise which will be unavoidable

25:30

in my opinion if many tariffs end

25:32

up happening It will lower demand. It

25:35

just will I mean, it's about as

25:37

simple as that So in itself, it

25:39

would have been a big thing just

25:42

to start exporting for the first time.

25:45

So now, who knows, our results might

25:47

be a little bit skewed because of

25:49

the situation that the economic environment is

25:51

between US Canada. But we don't know

25:53

that. My strategy has always been try

25:55

to keep it affordable for the end

25:57

consumer. So I will try to internalize

25:59

whatever I can because I don't believe

26:01

any of these things are permanent. These

26:04

things tend to fluctuate and sometimes you, you

26:06

know, sometimes you take a smaller margin and

26:08

sometimes you make up for it in a

26:10

couple of years. We'll see how long that

26:12

strategy worked, but that's kind of my going

26:15

in. You know, we made a decision to

26:17

go into Canada. We want to do it

26:19

right. We don't want to go in with

26:21

like extraordinary pricing because that's not going to

26:23

help anybody. So we're taking a little bit

26:26

more of a risk on our end. You

26:29

know, let's face it, our product is,

26:32

it's a product of want

26:34

versus need, but it's a fun want, right?

26:36

Like we want to spoil our dogs. We

26:38

want to give them a happy moment. That

26:40

is what we are about. We're creating moments

26:43

of joy. And people want that for their

26:45

dogs. And it's still, it's still an affordable

26:47

luxury, but it depends on what happens with

26:49

everything else, you know, but all the other

26:51

goods that people need to buy for their

26:53

household on a weekly basis. If the prices

26:55

of that all kind of skyrocket, then they

26:58

will have less discretionary input. And in the

27:00

end, that will have an effect on us,

27:02

but. You know, time will tell. Time

27:04

will tell what will happen there. Well,

27:07

truly, thank you Debbie

27:09

for being here with us today for

27:11

talking about your business. It's been such

27:13

a pleasure and we wish you all

27:15

the best with your dog Gelato Adventures.

27:18

Thank you. It

27:21

seems like there's no one -size -fits

27:23

-all conclusion when it comes to tariffs.

27:26

For some, especially workers in protected

27:28

industries, tariffs have offered

27:31

a sense of security. Jobs saved,

27:33

factories reopened, and a renewed sense

27:36

of local pride. But

27:38

for others, particularly small business

27:40

owners and consumers, the

27:42

costs have been harder to absorb and anticipate.

27:45

They ripple through supply chains

27:48

and communities in complex and

27:50

unexpected ways. Matt.

27:57

Over the past two episodes, we've

27:59

spoken to three Americans, all in

28:01

different industries. So two,

28:03

who say these tariffs could really hurt their businesses.

28:06

And one, who says that tariffs could

28:08

save his job and his industry. So

28:11

would you say that tariffs are

28:13

just more complicated than people would

28:15

think? I think it's a complicated

28:17

issue and we're a big economy

28:19

with a lot of people doing

28:22

a lot of different things and

28:24

inevitably the effects of whatever Washington

28:26

does is gonna have different impacts

28:28

on different people and it's very

28:30

stark in these cases. And each

28:32

one of those people was great

28:34

and very generous with their time

28:36

and insights and honesty about their

28:38

views on these issues and it

28:40

shows that you can have reasonable

28:42

disagreements or different opinions about these

28:44

issues based on where you sit.

28:47

We've run through a whole lot.

28:49

So to sum it up, what

28:51

are the two or three takeaways

28:53

that American consumers, business owners,

28:56

everybody should know about

28:58

tariffs? Well, I

29:00

do think it's important for people to

29:02

understand that tariffs are a tax and

29:04

they are gonna raise prices. That is

29:06

just inevitable. I know that there's an

29:08

argument that somehow they won't be passed

29:10

on to consumers, but just particularly the

29:13

more they're perceived as something permanent, the

29:15

more that every producer, every

29:17

distributor, every retailer is going

29:19

to say, well, this is a permanent condition.

29:21

Everybody's paying it. So I'm going to pass

29:24

it on to the next person. And ultimately,

29:26

that next person is you and me. It's

29:28

the consumer that buys these things. And so

29:30

I think we just have to understand that

29:32

there is going to be that cost. Now,

29:34

there's some things in life that we have

29:37

to pay a cost for. When I buy

29:39

insurance for my car or my house, I'm

29:41

sort deliberately reducing my current

29:43

income or spending in order to cover

29:45

that risk and to give myself peace

29:48

of mind. So I'm willing to pay

29:50

that cost. So I think, like everything,

29:52

if there's a risk or a problem,

29:54

you may need to pay a cost.

29:56

And the question is, how much of

29:59

a cost is it worth paying in

30:01

order to get a problem solved? And

30:03

that's a legitimate area for debate. And

30:06

I think we should have that debate.

30:08

I'm a little concerned that right now,

30:10

President Trump is so determined to move

30:12

forward on a broad basis against friends

30:14

and adversaries alike on a broad range

30:17

of goods and services that we're going

30:19

to end up paying a high cost

30:21

before we really have had a debate

30:23

about whether that cost is worth paying.

30:27

There's no doubt that Trump's tariffs have

30:29

driven a wedge between the U .S.

30:31

and its close trading partners. That's

30:34

why, next time on Why It

30:36

Matters, we're talking all about trade

30:38

agreements with CFR trade expert Inu

30:41

Manak. The reason countries sign

30:43

trade agreements to begin with. You want

30:45

to establish some degree of predictability in

30:48

your relationship with another country. This means

30:50

that you negotiate, for example, certain levels

30:52

of tariffs and you don't expect those

30:54

tariffs to change every month, every year,

30:57

every minute, right? And this is how

30:59

you make sound business decisions. And

31:02

what we see happening today is that the

31:04

United States is no longer upholding the trade

31:06

agreements it has signed, and that makes it

31:08

very difficult for partners to come into a

31:10

negotiation and sit with us on a good

31:12

faith basis. So if you can't trust your

31:14

partner to uphold their deal, why would you

31:16

even begin to sign it? How

31:19

many trade agreements does the U

31:21

.S. have? And what executive power

31:23

does the president have over creating

31:25

and dismantling them? More on

31:27

that in our next trade episode. For

31:41

resources used in this episode and

31:43

more information, visit cfr .org/Why It

31:45

Matters and take a look at

31:47

the show notes. If

31:49

you ever have any questions or

31:52

suggestions or just want to chat

31:54

with us, email at whyitmattersatcfr .org

31:56

or you can hit us up

31:59

on X at cfr underscore org.

32:02

Why It Matters is a production of the

32:04

Council on Foreign Relations. The opinions

32:06

expressed on the show are solely that

32:08

of the guests, not of

32:10

CFR. which takes no institutional positions

32:12

on matters of policy. This

32:15

episode was produced by

32:17

Molly McEnany me, Gabrielle Sierra. Our

32:19

sound designer is Marcus Zacharia.

32:21

Our interns this semester

32:24

are Isabella and Joe Strogatz. Robert

32:26

McMahon is our managing editor. Our

32:28

theme music is composed by Kerry Torhucin.

32:31

You can subscribe to the

32:33

show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube,

32:35

or wherever you get your

32:37

audio. For Why It Matters, this

32:39

is Gabrielle Sierra off. See you

32:41

soon.