0:03

Hello, Anne. Thank you for

0:05

joining us on another episode

0:08

of Why Theory. As always,

0:10

I am your host, Ryan.

0:12

I need to join. As

0:15

always. But I call host,

0:17

Tom McCown, and Todd. How

0:19

you doing, buddy? Ryan, I'm

0:21

doing great this morning of... Nice

0:24

to talk to you in the

0:26

in the wake of the lack

0:29

five, right? That is correct. After

0:31

Slavoy's amazing final talk. It's for

0:33

everyone listening. It's in the wake

0:36

of lack five. We are recording

0:38

this actually prior to. So we're

0:40

just anticipating that it is Slavoy

0:43

will have a great final talk

0:45

and that everything will go. We'll

0:47

go off according to plants, but

0:50

I'm sure there'll be some some

0:52

hiccups. Anyway. So yeah, so well, I

0:54

mean, that's, is that not what makes

0:56

life worth living? And is that also

0:58

not what makes a symptom evident? Yes,

1:00

and I was, I was, I was

1:02

setting you up for that to kick

1:05

us off for the, for the, what

1:07

is symptomatic, right? Like that is the

1:09

question. And it's interesting because this is

1:12

a very important concept for psycho analysis

1:14

that we have spent, I don't know,

1:16

a lot of years not yet talking

1:18

about. And so now we're going to

1:21

talk about that's true. Yeah. Yeah, so

1:23

this episode, as you can tell from

1:25

the title, is about the symptom. And

1:28

what's interesting about the idea of symptom,

1:30

I think, I said this to you

1:32

while we were planning this, I, you

1:35

know, our experiences could be idiosyncratic on

1:37

this, but I have a feeling that

1:39

it is like, like many other

1:41

people, is that my understanding

1:44

of symptom in the strictly

1:46

psychoanalytic sense, is something that

1:49

I've come to by way of accumulation

1:51

over a range of

1:54

texts. Same thing. Specifically,

1:56

yeah, yeah, specifically by

1:58

the by. the three

2:00

biggies that we talk about from

2:03

time to time, you know, Freud,

2:05

Lacon, and Gjek. But there's also,

2:07

you know, Freud is philosopher Rick

2:09

Boothby, who he just dedicated an

2:11

episode to, talking about another book

2:13

of his. He talks a lot

2:15

about it in that work. And

2:18

it's one of those things where, like,

2:20

symptom, I walk around with the

2:22

idea, again, I wonder if this. How

2:24

this hits other people, but I

2:26

walk around with an understanding of

2:28

this idea. But if you told

2:30

me like you have to you

2:32

have to define symptom the 10

2:34

words or fewer Right and like and

2:37

where where's where's a line like

2:39

that and one of those people

2:41

I don't know that I could

2:43

have readily done it before we

2:45

started prepping for this episode, which

2:47

I think is I think makes

2:49

sense. I think that's right. And

2:51

I think even if you asked

2:53

for it himself to define a

2:55

symptom off the top of his

2:57

head. He might have, he would

2:59

have struggled a little bit for

3:02

words, right? And this is how

3:04

he does define it, just to

3:06

start people off. He says, this

3:08

is from inhibition symptoms and anxiety.

3:11

So this is a very, a

3:13

text very late, so from the

3:15

1920s. So symptom appears as early

3:17

as studies on hysteria in 1895.

3:19

So it's, it's like. present for

3:22

Freud from the beginning as a

3:24

concept. And I think it's because

3:26

he starts out as a medical

3:28

doctor that he takes symptom and

3:31

he brings that into the beginning

3:33

of psychoanalysis because one of the

3:36

things that medical doctors always do

3:38

when you go to visit them,

3:40

they say, what are your symptoms?

3:43

Right. And then one of the

3:45

things that that medicine tries to

3:47

do is. at least ideally, is

3:50

not to cure the symptoms, but

3:52

to cure the underlying disorder. And

3:54

psychoanalysis relationship to that

3:57

process is a very,

3:59

is really fascinating and not, it's

4:01

not just taking that over. It's

4:03

not just, oh, we treat the

4:06

underlying disorder and then the symptom

4:08

goes away. It is not that

4:10

at all. But it's also not,

4:12

the thing, the other thing you might

4:14

think is, oh, we just, the

4:16

point is to treat the symptom

4:18

and not think about the underlying

4:20

disorder, which I think is what,

4:22

from a psychoanalytic perspective,

4:25

certain other kinds of psychic therapy

4:27

would. it would be accused of

4:30

or would be guilty of, right?

4:32

Like they're just treating the symptoms

4:34

and they're never thinking about the

4:37

underlying disorder. So that's like cognitive

4:39

behavioral therapy. I think this is,

4:41

if you go to them with a

4:43

problem of insomnia, like I've done

4:45

a few times, it's just pure,

4:48

we're gonna purely address the symptoms.

4:50

They never ask you even like,

4:52

oh, what's going on in your

4:54

life that's causing this underlying. problem

4:56

that's just not their that's not

4:58

their province. So here's what Freud

5:00

says. He says this again from

5:02

inhibition symptoms and anxieties. A very difficult

5:04

book I think not or I shouldn't say

5:06

it's not hard if you already know Freud

5:09

but it's not a point of entry into

5:11

Freud's thought. No. It's a well definitely that

5:13

I think that's been on our short list.

5:15

It has a Freud episode. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

5:18

So we'll definitely get to it. So he

5:20

says this. A symptom is a sign of

5:22

and a substitute for a substitute for a.

5:24

An instinctual, and that word is,

5:27

so he's using the word

5:29

treb, so it's like a

5:31

drive, the satisfaction of a

5:33

drive, which has remained in abeyance.

5:36

It is a consequence of the

5:38

process of repression. So there's I

5:40

think the key link. So. a

5:42

draw a satisfaction of a drive

5:44

that's remained in abeyance and then

5:46

a consequence of the process of

5:49

repression. So I think that's that

5:51

that that does in a way

5:53

say it all right that that

5:55

the symptom is there because something

5:57

has been repressed and it both

6:00

I think this is the key thing

6:02

for Freud. It both is the indication

6:04

of repression and it's also the

6:06

expression of the drive. So that's

6:09

why I think so many people

6:11

find it interesting, right? Because it's

6:13

both things at once. It's both

6:16

repression and the articulation of the

6:18

drive that's been repressed. So it

6:21

brings back both things. Yeah. No,

6:23

and it's fascinating too, because it

6:25

would have been easy for him

6:28

to have written a consequence of

6:30

repression. That's a lot simpler. A

6:32

consequence of the process of

6:35

repression is a different thing.

6:37

And I think that's something that

6:39

I want to highlight in the

6:41

early going. It's really interesting. I

6:43

mean, this is, I think we've

6:45

talked about this in different ways,

6:47

is that an even more recent...

6:50

You know brain science I think

6:52

has something to to add here

6:54

that I think helps It helps

6:57

understand Freud and or

6:59

like prove a little bit

7:01

what he was talking about

7:03

like so I think current

7:05

models of the of the

7:07

psyche not that again neuroscience

7:09

brain brain. They don't like

7:11

that word so much but repression

7:14

is a thing that is needed

7:16

and necessary. It's like a perfunctory

7:18

act of the of the brain.

7:20

It's just like you because you

7:23

can't, you know, there are these

7:25

people sometimes like in this country

7:27

they'll end up on a

7:29

news program after the 4 p.m.

7:31

football games and where they're like,

7:33

this woman in Peoria can remember

7:35

every day of her life. We

7:37

find, you know, so there's some

7:40

people like this who remember everything,

7:42

but most people, like I mean,

7:44

talking 99, you don't remember everything.

7:46

It's just you can't. And this.

7:48

Again, current understanding of the brain

7:50

is like, you just you dump

7:52

these things out. There is a

7:54

there is a process of oppression.

7:56

It is not nefarious. It's just

7:58

it's really mundane. has

8:02

to

8:05

happen.

8:08

Things

8:11

get

8:14

taken

8:17

that are important that and

8:20

they get mushed up together

8:22

with again where this is

8:25

where like the mundane and

8:27

the traumatic right meet at

8:29

a at a at a

8:32

at a nexus point of everyday functioning

8:34

and that and this is where

8:36

the symptom will start to develop

8:38

so that's why it's again this

8:40

is in the process of repression

8:43

it's not like repression itself like

8:45

like repression is unidirectional and it

8:47

is intentional. And it's like, ah,

8:49

yes, we are all going to

8:52

repress trauma. That's not true. I

8:54

can readily talk about, you know,

8:56

what happened to, like my cat's

8:58

last day, I'm not gonna talk

9:00

about that right now, but like,

9:03

you know, the car accident, there's all

9:05

kinds of other things that I can

9:07

readily talk about. But there's other things,

9:09

this would be Freud's point. This would

9:12

be Freud's point. Those even even though

9:14

no nobody would say to me that

9:16

like oh, yeah a car accident where

9:18

you end up in a coma for

9:20

for five days and you have to

9:23

learn how to think again I think

9:25

everyone would say that's capital T trauma,

9:27

but I can talk about it right.

9:29

So there's there's something different to that.

9:31

So that's that's more of like a

9:33

like an everyday sense kind of kind

9:36

of kind of trauma. But what's the

9:38

what is the thing that? Again, and

9:40

I wouldn't be consciously aware of this,

9:42

but what's the thing that got

9:44

caught in the process of

9:46

repression that is attached to

9:48

other things that I do

9:50

that produce a hitch? Okay,

9:52

something that is just not

9:54

smooth in my everyday psychic

9:56

functioning or just my everyday

9:58

work and just... relation to the

10:01

world. That's where we can

10:03

start to find symptom and

10:05

it's through that again everyday

10:07

mundane functioning of a banal

10:09

kind of repression and I

10:11

think that's just important. It's not

10:13

like something really bad happens to

10:15

you and then that gets pushed

10:17

down like a like your your

10:19

unconscious has a finger that it

10:22

pushes down the direct bad thing

10:24

like on purpose and makes it

10:26

mush around with a bunch of

10:28

other things. It's like it's You

10:30

don't know why it happens and

10:32

why that certain thing gets repressed.

10:34

And I think that's critically important.

10:37

Absolutely important, right? I think it

10:39

reminds me of the of that

10:41

story that Freud tells in the project

10:43

for a scientific psychology of the patient.

10:45

I think her name is Emma, right?

10:47

She she goes into a store and

10:49

her conscious memory is. She goes into

10:51

a store and these two clerks laugh

10:53

at her and then she can never

10:55

go into another store again by herself

10:57

because and Freud's like really like two

11:00

people or they don't even laughing at

11:02

her. They're just laughing because laughing at

11:04

her would obviously that you could see

11:06

how that'd be traumatic. They're just laughing

11:08

and then Freud discovers after psychoanalysis that

11:10

this is linked to an earlier trauma

11:12

where she was sexually assaulted but. The point

11:14

is that- By a shopkeeper who

11:16

laughs- By a shopkeeper who was

11:18

laughing, correct, sorry. And so it

11:21

was the laughter- Which triggered it,

11:23

right? But I think, isn't the

11:25

key point that it just can

11:27

be this totally banal activity that

11:29

then has a symptomatic function for

11:31

you because of that link to

11:33

like what gets- what gets linked

11:35

up to it, and it can

11:37

be anything. I think that's right.

11:39

And I think the other thing

11:41

that you're saying I think is

11:43

really good is that the symptom

11:45

is what enables the everyday to be

11:47

the every day, right? Like if we

11:49

didn't have the symptom, whatever that symptom

11:51

is, and we're going to talk about

11:54

different ones, especially in terms of

11:56

capitalism and then in terms of

11:58

what we're currently living. now, which

12:00

is the end of the world,

12:02

that the symptom allows the everyday

12:05

to seem like it's every day.

12:07

And I think that's what, that's

12:09

the real to me. This is

12:11

why the symptom is such a

12:14

crucial concept in psychoanalysis and why,

12:16

and really is one of the

12:18

areas where I think psychoanalysis has

12:20

something genuine to contribute because people

12:22

always ask this question, right? Like

12:25

how can, how did that? Like,

12:27

Adorno asks us about

12:29

the Holocaust, like, how

12:31

did the everyday German

12:33

just accept that there

12:35

were concentration camps and

12:38

there were death camps

12:40

around them that without

12:42

being bothered in the

12:44

everyday? And I think this

12:46

is actually the very concern

12:48

of the film. Is it

12:50

Jonathan Glazer, a zone of

12:52

interest? Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah,

12:55

yeah, yeah. Yes. Which, from

12:57

2023. So I think that

12:59

that's, I think there's a,

13:01

there's really a sense in

13:03

which the every day depends

13:05

on something symptomatic.

13:07

And then if that symptom

13:10

gets taken away or

13:12

explodes or becomes evident

13:14

as a symptom, then

13:16

what's, what's. cool fascinating is that

13:19

the everyday shatters right like the

13:21

you can no longer and that's

13:23

what happened to this this patient

13:25

Emma that that Freud was analyzing like

13:27

all of a sudden like that symptom

13:29

got it all of a sudden it

13:31

lost its ability to do what it

13:34

was doing and then she couldn't go

13:36

into the store anymore and I think

13:38

that that's like something has to be

13:40

functioning that way or else we don't

13:42

have the everyday and so I

13:45

think like your emphasis on the

13:47

banality of of what's going on

13:49

with the symptom is really important

13:51

because I think that's the that's

13:54

like the connective tissue of everydayness.

13:56

And it is exactly the thing

13:58

is exactly the thing that convince people

14:00

like you know like Eric

14:02

from that the right way

14:04

to treat this would be

14:07

to like that the symptom

14:09

is repression yeah and we need

14:11

to we need to lift it

14:13

right so that desire can well

14:15

they all kind of I mean

14:18

it's really interesting isn't it the

14:20

number of people in Freud's orbit

14:22

and in the generation after Freud,

14:24

who were convinced, and even of

14:27

course Freud himself at the beginning

14:29

thought this, right, that if we

14:31

just lift repression in some way,

14:33

like Markousa and Harrison, Herbert Markousa

14:36

and Harrison civilization, says, okay, there

14:38

is some kind of necessary repression

14:40

that has to happen in society.

14:42

But then he invents this notion of

14:44

surplus repression and thinks we can just

14:47

get we can get rid of that

14:49

and then we won't have the symptoms

14:51

That we suffer from are just a

14:53

result of this surplus repression if we

14:55

get back down to the necessary repression

14:57

We can live this relatively symptom free

14:59

life. So I think you're really like

15:02

from is really guilty of this. I

15:04

think even Adorno is guilty of this.

15:06

I think Marcjosa certainly is I think

15:08

a lot of this Freudo

15:10

Marxism of the 20th century

15:12

is that's what it's really

15:14

that's what it that that

15:17

really is bread is buttered

15:19

I think Yeah, it's it the and the

15:21

idea You know from a more you

15:23

know from the Freudian perspective

15:25

that you know we're developed

15:28

over the last you know how

15:30

many years we've been doing this

15:33

is like you desire could never

15:35

freely express itself like like

15:37

if you If you really follow these

15:39

things to the letter, like these concepts,

15:42

and this way of thinking about

15:44

it, like, desire is always going

15:46

to be unconscious. It's always going

15:48

to be an interruption. It's always

15:51

going to be a thing that,

15:53

like, it does you because it

15:55

undoes you. Like, that's what desire

15:57

is. So you can't have it.

16:00

you know, a piece and it's free love,

16:02

you know, the Woodstock summer, like

16:04

it can't like, it can't speak

16:06

itself, like we can't get to

16:08

that point and then, you know,

16:11

all, again, all repression in society

16:13

is lifted and now we can

16:15

all live freely, like that's not

16:17

the way, that's why I was

16:20

harping on the process of it

16:22

and it's necessity. So it just,

16:24

there cannot be this free

16:26

expression of it, but

16:28

what we can do.

16:30

and it's what Ford

16:32

comes to eventually. And

16:35

I think this often

16:37

appears as a, I

16:39

don't know, like a

16:41

limp or dissatisfied

16:44

gesture, but is

16:46

vital to psycho

16:48

analysis, but you.

16:50

You change your relationship to your

16:52

symptom. That's what we do. Right,

16:54

right. And and that's that's what

16:57

Ford comes to and that's ultimately

16:59

the like the idea here is that

17:01

we can't have Like repression lifted so

17:03

that the you know, so that you

17:05

know, so that you know, because because

17:07

symptom is is covering over for desire

17:10

and all the stuff. So we can

17:12

just make it free itself. Like no,

17:14

what you what you can do is

17:16

you can change your relationship to your

17:18

symptom. Yeah, I think that that's something

17:20

we can work on. Yeah, and I

17:22

think yeah, right you've just given our

17:24

the thesis statement for this episode Right

17:26

like that's yeah, exactly like that's the

17:29

point of first psychoanalysis is not To

17:31

cure the symptom. It's not to cure

17:33

the underlying disorder so much I mean

17:35

there is some of that right, but

17:38

I think primarily it's how can

17:40

you change your relationship to your

17:42

symptom? And I think the key

17:44

to that is to see And

17:46

it kind of brings us back

17:48

to this figure that we often

17:50

talk about, and at least his

17:52

concept, we often talk about Johan

17:54

Gottlieb-Fikta and this concept of the

17:56

Anstas or the obstacle that is

17:58

also an impetus, right? the thing

18:00

that's a barrier, that's a limit,

18:02

that also is what drives us

18:04

forward. And I think that's the,

18:06

that really, like if you think

18:08

of those two words like obstacle

18:11

and then, and then impetus, then

18:13

I think that that's the thing

18:15

that you can, that can propel

18:17

us, that that propels, if that's

18:19

the change in relationship to the

18:21

symptom, right? So we see that

18:23

it's not the sense that the

18:26

symptom is just a, a, barrier.

18:28

It's also an enabling barrier. It's

18:30

also a limit that impels us.

18:32

And I think that's the or

18:34

or it's yes, we suffer. This

18:37

is I think the way you

18:39

have to think of it. Yes,

18:41

we suffer it, but we

18:43

also enjoy it. And I

18:45

think that's right. That's really

18:47

the conversion that's at work

18:49

in psychoanalysis. Yeah.

18:51

No, it's in this is something I

18:53

know you and I like to draw

18:56

that the full expression of of

18:58

of of Anstos is is found

19:00

in the in the screwball comedy

19:03

or the or the in some

19:05

romantic comedies but almost always in

19:08

the screwball like you know starting

19:10

where like the you know the

19:12

roots of the genre starting with

19:15

like it happened one night where

19:17

the like you know you have

19:19

like a very rich woman to

19:22

the to the point where she's

19:24

effectively a princess and to underline

19:26

this the her betrothed is named

19:28

king and like which is I

19:31

think really like it's great on

19:33

on capers point like in in

19:35

in that film and then the

19:38

the person she falls in love

19:40

with played by. Clark Gable is

19:42

a reporter who is not employed

19:44

and basically like homeless like that's

19:47

like that's one of the things

19:49

in that in that film is That

19:51

I think is so great is again.

19:53

She's she's a runaway princess and she

19:55

falls in love with this guy who's

19:57

like who's unemployed to the age he's

20:00

broke and this class thing is

20:02

a real division. And it's not

20:04

a real division that they get

20:06

past that like, you know, okay,

20:08

you find a different way to

20:10

relate to your wealth and I'll

20:12

find a different, I'll be a

20:15

little bit less prejudiced to the

20:17

wealthy classes and you be a

20:19

little less prissy or whatever. It's

20:22

like, no, this this thing that

20:24

would divide them utterly is the

20:26

thing that binds them together.

20:29

made visually manifest in

20:31

the walls of Jericho metaphor

20:33

that you know it

20:35

pervades throughout the movie and

20:38

anyway so like that's

20:40

the again the the symptom

20:42

of their relationship if you

20:44

like yeah I think that

20:46

the focus on it happened

20:48

one night is really is

20:51

really good because it's the

20:53

like that Just like you pointed

20:55

out, that the other lover is

20:57

named king as if he's like

21:00

this absolute ideal, and that Pierre

21:02

Warren, the Clark Gable character, is

21:04

annoying to her and is just

21:06

a barrier to her getting to

21:09

king, and then she turns to,

21:11

and then she ends up, that

21:13

she falls for him, so we

21:16

get this, he really is this

21:18

fictian anstos, this, this obstacle and

21:20

impetus, or. This symptom, right? Like

21:23

I think that that's that's another

21:25

way to think of Peter Warren

21:27

as as as as the symptom

21:30

of the Claudette Colbert character and

21:32

it happened one night, which is

21:34

just an amazing film. Yeah, no,

21:36

absolutely. I mean, he like, it's

21:38

a nice little tie to the

21:40

monetary just to kind of like,

21:42

so that up is that what

21:44

What lets her know or and her

21:47

father know that he's like he's like

21:49

a good man is he doesn't request

21:51

surplus value for right for taking for

21:53

taking care of her you know during

21:56

her having having run away from home.

21:58

It's it's such a great. It's

22:00

a great point. I think it

22:03

not the Marxists and the Freudian

22:05

together on this because this is

22:08

Gjek's take, right? That it's Marx

22:10

who invents the symptom. So, yes.

22:12

In fact, that's the first chapter

22:15

of his first book in English,

22:17

right? There we go. Yes. How

22:19

did Marx invents the symptom? So,

22:22

yeah, I think that I think

22:24

it's really important to think about.

22:26

And I think, don't you think

22:28

it's even a question, like, could

22:30

you recognize the symptom in

22:33

the psychoanalytic sense if you're not

22:35

in the capitalist epic? Like, I

22:37

think you could, obviously, we can

22:39

look back and say, okay, here's

22:42

the symptom of the Roman Empire,

22:44

or here's the symptom of whatever

22:46

dynasty, right? But I think, maybe

22:48

it's only in, and I

22:50

don't, Slavoid never says this,

22:53

but maybe this is even

22:55

the argument. of sublime argued

22:57

videology, like that it's

22:59

only under capitalism and

23:01

through marks that you

23:04

get this recognition of

23:06

how the symptom functions.

23:08

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think,

23:11

so do we want to

23:13

play this out with in

23:15

relation to our big capstone?

23:17

Capra Stone, you might say.

23:19

I mean, not exactly, because

23:22

we're moving away from the

23:24

territory of Frank Capra. With

23:26

our examples, because there's not

23:28

a more evident, so like,

23:30

again, it happened one night

23:33

in the screwball, this was

23:35

a wildly popular genre film,

23:37

like, you know, film, film

23:39

studies, people, film theories, film theorists.

23:41

Basically everyone agrees the screwball genre goes

23:44

from 34 to 49 and it starts

23:46

with it happen one night and it

23:48

ends with I was a male war

23:50

bride That's kind of like the last

23:52

that's the last classic screwball and then

23:55

anything then there's like a development in

23:57

the sex comedy or some You know

23:59

people use examples of like the Ella

24:01

Talk. Yeah, and like that, or like

24:04

the Ella, yeah, like the apartment

24:06

or some like hot like comes

24:08

in for a lot of people

24:10

and then anyway, whatever, we go

24:12

forward in a different direction. When

24:14

you get movies like Porky's and

24:16

Animal House, right, like the sex

24:18

comedy because kind of a different

24:20

thing. Anyway, or at least, again,

24:22

for certain kinds of film theorists

24:24

and film study folk. But from

24:26

34 to 49, I mean, we're talking about.

24:28

films again the screwball almost always

24:31

has to do with I mean

24:33

my man Godfrey is the great

24:35

example maybe of like this class

24:37

antagonism is at the center of

24:39

these films and this is in

24:41

the wake of the the Great

24:43

Depression and the stock market crash

24:45

you know and so that's when

24:47

this this genre was at like

24:49

it's absolute zenith and then it's

24:51

not really a surprise that post-war

24:53

it kind of falls away

24:55

when that was you know,

24:57

no longer a central antagonism

24:59

in society. You might say,

25:01

you might link those things together.

25:04

Yeah. Today, the symptom being expressed

25:06

in a range of films, across

25:08

genre, is, you mean you said

25:11

this earlier, is the end of

25:13

the world. And this is like,

25:16

I remember, you know, I was

25:18

with you and your brother and,

25:20

and, and, and, Paul Einstein and

25:23

John Waldron. And we were, oh

25:25

wait, no, no, sorry, your brother

25:27

wasn't there. Seeing a movie. Why

25:29

was my brother not there? He

25:32

was an interesting question. Listen, don't

25:34

have a go at him. He's

25:36

watching Ohio State. That's important. So,

25:38

but we were watching a movie

25:40

and all the trailers. every single

25:43

one. You know, this is a

25:45

couple years ago. It was just,

25:47

it's the end of the world.

25:49

And it was like a superhero

25:52

movie or someone is being a hero,

25:54

someone's being heroic, or there's something that

25:56

is like just threatening all of us

25:58

and it was just. every single

26:01

trailer every single one

26:03

and we saw a great

26:05

movie that night by the way

26:07

we did we did see a

26:10

great movie that night so but

26:12

that the the apocalypse

26:14

I think and it's the

26:17

impending nature of the apocalypse

26:19

is the the is the symptom

26:21

that is most commonly expressed through

26:23

Hollywood film. I think that is

26:25

very fair. Yeah, I think it's

26:28

really true. I think that the,

26:30

I mean, for sure, it's in

26:32

the disaster film, right? But then

26:34

I think you're right to say,

26:36

it's interesting to think about the

26:39

superhero film too, which we've talked

26:41

about as this extension of the

26:43

Western, which I think is certainly

26:45

right, but I also think there

26:48

is something. symptomatic

26:50

about this, what people call,

26:52

I don't know if this is

26:54

a great term or not, but

26:57

late stage capitalism or what is

26:59

he in a corn blue call

27:01

it, too late capitalism, which is

27:03

nice. I think the problem is

27:06

it sounds so cool that it

27:08

can't never be a general term,

27:10

which is, I don't know, I

27:12

mean is that a good thing

27:15

or a bad? It'll always be her

27:17

term I guess. It's such a

27:19

focus, right? Like it's, and I think

27:21

it's a, it's a, it's, it has

27:23

to be the symptom of that sense

27:26

that the whole, the world is ending,

27:28

right? And I think that, like the

27:30

films are the, the films are the

27:32

symptom. Yeah, absolutely. They're, this is a,

27:34

and so this is like this move

27:36

we're trying to do, trying to

27:39

push us into popular phone, which

27:41

is something we do all the

27:43

time here. But I mean, there's

27:45

a, there's a, there's a, there's

27:47

a, there's a, Important thing here.

27:49

I mean like this was a

27:51

question for Freud that like once

27:53

you understand the symptom right right

27:55

can you at the and this

27:57

is at the again the Emma

27:59

example from project for scientific psychology,

28:01

1895. Like we're talking, you,

28:03

okay, so this is a

28:05

symptom that arose through analysis,

28:07

that were, it interrupted someone's

28:09

daily life and then we

28:12

were able to talk about

28:14

it through the talk therapy,

28:16

through the talking cure, through

28:18

psychoanalysis. And since, okay, we

28:20

can talk and psycho analysis

28:22

has a lot to say

28:24

on the symptom of the

28:26

individual. And if there's a

28:28

symptom of the individual, there

28:30

must be a symptom of the

28:32

social. And, you know, Freud writes

28:35

about this in group psychology analysis

28:37

of the ego, like, like, you

28:39

try, like, how can you psychoanalyze

28:41

a society? Like, what, where, what

28:43

can we, you know, locate as

28:45

the nexus point, this tension, this

28:48

interruption of society as, as

28:50

such? So. How can we do that?

28:52

How can we know we're right?

28:54

And is, and even if we

28:56

can do this, is psychoanalyzing society

28:58

as efficacious as the intervention that

29:00

can be done to the individual.

29:02

And when he writes, civilization is

29:04

discontent, he kind of concludes no.

29:07

Right, he definitely does. Yeah, there's

29:09

no way. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

29:11

Yeah. Yeah no I think I

29:13

think that's right like he thinks

29:15

you can't so the very thing

29:17

that we're doing he thinks you

29:19

can't do because it's not effective

29:21

like you can be right right

29:23

right but also he thinks doesn't

29:25

isn't there some sense of

29:28

him in civilizations discontents where

29:30

he's saying look Part of the

29:33

way in which you identify a symptom

29:35

and then the underlying neurosis is that

29:37

you have something to compare it to.

29:39

And his point about the society is

29:41

you don't really have anything to compare

29:43

it to. All you have is a

29:46

society. Yeah, right, right. Because it's not

29:48

like there's other ones that are like

29:50

some that I think people like to

29:52

do this. There's some societies that are

29:54

sick and then there's some that are

29:56

healthy. And I think Freud. He's not he's

29:58

not down with that. That's really, I

30:01

don't know, to me, that this is

30:03

where I guess I, if there's one

30:05

point at which I think that

30:07

I differ more from Freud, and

30:09

I think this is the, this

30:12

is the political position more than

30:14

anything, it's that I do think

30:16

you can analyze a society

30:18

because I, and this is, again,

30:21

I think a Hegelian critique of

30:23

Freud, right, like that, that the

30:25

society sets up its own measuring

30:28

stick. internally. And I think Freud's

30:30

point was, look, we don't have

30:32

a measuring stick externally

30:34

for a society. I think he's

30:36

right about that. But I think

30:38

the point, I think the Hegelian

30:41

point is every social order, every,

30:43

even every subject sets up

30:45

its own internal measuring stick.

30:47

And that's how we can discuss

30:49

the social symptom. And

30:51

that's how we can discuss.

30:54

Because I think Freud would

30:56

even be a little uncomfortable.

30:58

with us talking about the

31:00

superhero as the symptom of our

31:02

situation, our contemporary

31:04

capitalist situation, right? I

31:06

think he, I don't think that

31:09

would make him comfortable. Because of

31:11

this, because of this real, I

31:13

mean, I know in civilization, it's

31:16

intense, he's talking about, he's analyzing

31:18

the whole society, obviously, but he

31:20

is saying like, you can't really,

31:23

that all you can do is

31:25

see the antagonism that exists between

31:27

the individual and the social structure,

31:30

right? Like you can't, you can't

31:32

fix, like this famous line, like

31:34

I don't, I do not have the

31:37

courage to stand up before my fellow

31:39

humans as a prophet, right? Like that's

31:41

the, that's one of the, it's not

31:43

the penultimate, but it's one

31:45

of the last lines of, of

31:47

civilization's discontent. And I think that

31:49

that's, that's, that, that, that.

31:51

Obviously we don't think we're profits

31:54

either, but we do think we

31:56

can make some kind of headway

31:58

into analyzing the the social symptom

32:00

and I think he doesn't.

32:02

And that we includes everybody.

32:04

It's not just me and you. I

32:06

think. No, no, right. I meant me. Yeah,

32:08

I wasn't, it was a universal way. Yeah,

32:11

yeah, no, I'm just, I'm clarifying. Yeah, no,

32:13

it's, it's very, I mean, yeah, I mean,

32:15

like, this is the, like, this is like,

32:18

like, why, like, why would you talk about

32:20

Hollywood film, you know, you know, teach you

32:22

know, you know, about psychoanalysis or

32:24

theory or whatever I mean I

32:26

and I think this would this

32:28

would be one of our one

32:31

of our big answers is like

32:33

look this like we're not this

32:35

is you're you get more people

32:37

coming to the couch for analysis

32:39

who like making a movie than

32:41

you're ever gonna get come to

32:43

analysis that's a great point Thank

32:45

you. Just because they can't, it's,

32:47

gee, I know movie tickets are

32:50

more expensive, but one ticket still a

32:52

lot less than a winning analytics session,

32:54

right? Oh, and I mean the people who

32:56

worked on the film too. I just

32:58

mean, I mean, I mean, like all the

33:00

people that we, you know, we walk

33:02

out, like the movie, all the movies over,

33:05

and it's like, oh, no, no, wait,

33:07

this is all the people that made the

33:09

thing that I don't have, I don't

33:11

got enough time, like, like, like, like, like,

33:13

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

33:15

like, like, like, you know, like coming together

33:18

to smash their unconscious desires together to

33:20

make a film. And then, you know,

33:22

we go to the theater. So

33:24

like, it's this, this, this whole

33:26

thing that is, is rich feckened,

33:29

you might say, with, with, with

33:31

psychic material. So there,

33:33

there's, the superhero thing.

33:35

And so I think we're eventually going

33:37

to talk more about disaster. I want

33:39

to talk a little bit about the

33:41

superhero. We did hate a whole episode

33:43

to this, but there's a couple things

33:45

with the superhero film right now is

33:47

that there's fatigue, right? And then this

33:49

is what I would say is kind

33:52

of a popular analysis, which is the reason why

33:54

there are so many of these films or

33:56

why they are popular or even why they

33:58

keep being made is that. People agree

34:00

that there are problems in

34:03

society, but what we also

34:05

agree is that no human

34:07

or no ordinary person can

34:09

solve them. And so we

34:11

go to see these movies

34:13

because we're giving up our

34:15

agency and in in in being

34:18

able to solve the problems

34:20

of the world. So like

34:23

these movies, the very existence

34:25

of them, I think someone

34:27

might say are the precise

34:30

symptom. of deagentialization. You think

34:32

that's right? I think it's.

34:34

But both things, right? But

34:36

also the recognition that we're

34:39

in a catastrophe that needs to

34:41

be addressed, right? So yeah, that

34:43

I agree with, but I think

34:45

I, where I suppose where I

34:47

would disagree is I don't, I don't

34:49

think that people go to see

34:51

these movies and because. What

34:53

people think that doesn't exist? And

34:56

I think that's a cynical thing.

34:58

I think what people want is

35:00

for some, for some, this is

35:02

what they agree with is that

35:04

what it takes to solve

35:07

the intractable problems of capital

35:09

is someone who is morally

35:11

and ethically incorruptible. That's the

35:14

thing that I think, and that people

35:16

think that doesn't exist. And I think

35:18

that's a cynical thing. Not a like

35:20

a, I guess. I would say that's

35:23

that it's it's an expression of yeah

35:25

of cynicism and in choosing to like

35:27

to deagentialize yourself not this like where

35:30

like people go because they're waiting for

35:32

some Superman to say our world that's

35:34

my point for you it's a symptom

35:37

of our underlying cynicism yeah I mean

35:39

yes what like what like what is

35:41

yeah I think that's probably right I

35:43

think it's probably right. I mean, I hate

35:46

the superhero film worse than you do. So

35:48

if you're that negative about it, then I

35:50

certainly am not going to speak in his

35:52

favor. I think, it's just funny what you

35:55

said, because you know the nickname, I don't

35:57

know what you call a nickname of Robesphere

35:59

was. Len corruptible. Oh yeah,

36:01

that's right. The uncorruptible, right?

36:03

So I think that's that's

36:06

interesting that we can't imagine

36:08

a Robosphere today. Or well, I

36:10

think this is the this is the

36:12

the the fascination with Luigi Mangioni. Oh,

36:14

I will tell you is that like,

36:17

yeah, someone who who acted, who acted,

36:19

this is, this is the, the pro-

36:21

Luigi take is that someone who acted

36:23

with moral clarity like that, and that's

36:25

why. Without regard for their own. Yes,

36:27

which is why I horrifies mainstream media

36:29

nobody talks about them anymore like that's

36:32

I mean also there's no updates on

36:34

the case, but like that's yeah You

36:36

know, I also Yeah, and also just

36:38

very quickly when he was announced that

36:40

he was a guy that did it

36:42

I thought I I saw somebody post

36:45

us online It was like he has

36:47

the name of his JK rolling came

36:49

up with an Italian person and I

36:51

just thought like this like like of

36:53

course of course He's got to be

36:55

because I'm Italian-American. I was like of

36:58

course it's got to be a cartoonishly

37:00

named Italian-American. Of course I was a

37:02

guy that did it anyway, but that's

37:04

neither here nor there yes, but you

37:06

know I think he's gonna be so

37:08

obliterated from history that in five years

37:11

no one even know who we're talking

37:13

about or guy that in New

37:15

York City shot a health

37:17

care executive and killed or

37:19

Todd or it's an OJ type

37:21

event. Oh, that's very interesting.

37:25

Yeah. And then that by that

37:27

you mean like a rallying

37:29

point. Yeah. For again for

37:31

an antagonism in society. Yeah.

37:33

Yeah. Perhaps. But we'll see,

37:35

but I mean, I think

37:37

this is. But it's interesting

37:40

that he's not a symptom, right?

37:43

No, I know, I wouldn't

37:45

say that. Yeah, which is, I

37:47

think, like, I think, you know,

37:49

Batman is a symptom, but

37:52

Muiji Mangioni is not

37:54

a symptom, right? Like, I

37:56

think that's the, I think that's

37:59

the, right. just to come back

38:01

to this, it allows you to continue

38:03

to live your everyday life, right? But

38:05

you don't, you're aware of it, but

38:07

you're not hyper aware of it, right? Like

38:09

you're not focused on it. You're

38:12

just kind of like, okay, like

38:14

that's why for Marx, the symptom

38:16

of capital, this is coming back

38:18

to the, Slavio's point about Marx

38:21

inventing the symptom, that the symptom

38:23

is precisely. the theft of surplus

38:25

labor, right? Like that's the thing,

38:27

like everybody sees it going on,

38:30

everybody knows that it's happening, but

38:32

they just act, they just continue,

38:34

it allows the whole capital system

38:36

to function. And if people focused

38:39

on it, this is. Marx's point, this

38:41

is what Marx is trying to

38:43

do when he writes capital to

38:45

say, look, we should be paying

38:47

attention to this thing. If people

38:49

focus on it, then that everydayness

38:51

of capitalism can't keep going. So

38:53

I think that that's that's really

38:55

the key thing about the symptom.

38:57

And I think that's why the

38:59

superhero is so fascinating. And is

39:01

an interesting, don't you think it's

39:03

a kind of interesting contrast to

39:05

the disaster film? So we've done

39:07

episodes on both of them. And

39:09

it's interesting how I think that,

39:11

like, if you want to talk,

39:13

when you said, I think rightly,

39:15

that the point is to change

39:17

one's position relative to the symptom,

39:20

like, isn't in a sense, like,

39:22

if the symptom today is the

39:24

end of the world or, or,

39:27

or, or, or, or some sense

39:29

of the apocalypse coming, right? If

39:31

that's the symptom, like, the

39:34

one relationship to it, I

39:36

think the symptomatic if you will

39:38

relationship to it is the superhero

39:40

film right because it doesn't ask

39:42

you to change your relation to

39:44

it that's kind of my point

39:46

yeah the super phone you get

39:49

to be confirmed in exactly yeah

39:51

absolutely totally agree with that yeah

39:53

but then I think the disaster

39:55

film in its best manifestations

39:58

does it does ask you to change Right?

40:00

It does say, like, you have to

40:02

shift your relationship to this and

40:04

see that the only possible salutary

40:06

response to this apocalypse is a

40:09

collective one. Right? Where we recognize

40:11

that we can't, and this is

40:13

why I think this, the disaster

40:16

film with, what is those on

40:18

Netflix with Julia Roberts and Ethan

40:20

Hawk, it's like at the end

40:23

of the world or something like

40:25

that, this is the end of

40:27

the world. to the end of

40:29

the world. But the end of

40:31

that film, I'm going to destroy

40:33

the ending because it's a film

40:35

that merits an ending destroyed. It's

40:38

just about like, can we retreat?

40:40

They basically retreat into privacy and

40:42

watch friends. They have all the

40:44

collected friends on DVD and they

40:46

just retreat to privacy and watch

40:48

that while the world's ending outside

40:50

there, outside this one isolated house

40:52

that they found. And I think

40:54

with the house that has a

40:56

bunker in it. It's like the,

40:58

I think we should see those

41:00

bunkers for the riches. They're all

41:02

like, uh, uh, uh, modeled on

41:05

the Führer's Bunker. But yeah, right,

41:07

right. I mean, that's the attitude

41:09

we should have towards it. Yes,

41:12

like, oh, you have a Führer

41:14

Bunker. Yeah, that's, that should be

41:16

the, that should be it. Everyone

41:19

should say that. Oh, you have

41:21

a Führer's Bunker. It's like, no,

41:23

it's not like that. It can

41:26

be Bruno Gantz, because he's dead.

41:28

Yeah. But I think it's like,

41:30

it's like. Yeah, it's really, I

41:32

think that what's great about most

41:35

disaster films, because I just named

41:37

one that doesn't do this, is

41:39

that they're all about this formation

41:42

of the collective, like these incredible

41:44

ones from the 70s, which are,

41:46

I think, isn't the disaster film,

41:48

I think Scruball now has respect,

41:50

like people think, okay, okay, those

41:53

are great films, right? Like, no

41:55

one, no one thinks, oh, his

41:57

Girl Friday bringing up baby, that's

41:59

garbage. People say like, okay, those

42:01

are great films. But don't you think

42:03

the disaster film still, I was reading

42:06

a little article in Vulture about the

42:08

year towering Inferno got nominated, I forget,

42:10

like Patton was nominated, and Patent One

42:13

and other, five easy pieces were nominated,

42:15

a bunch of other films. And they're

42:17

like, the only bad film in the

42:20

five nominated is Towering Inferno, that's Shlock.

42:22

And I'm like, really? You're allowed to

42:24

say that? I just think like, if

42:27

I was Minister of Culture or Article,

42:29

a writer, a writer would be. sent

42:31

off to a re-education camp, but

42:33

I think that that that that

42:35

that idea of I mean the

42:37

idea of towering Inferno right

42:39

it's it's even it's like I

42:42

think five easy pieces of great

42:44

film but the idea of towering

42:46

Inferno is like to survive the

42:49

everybody that acts like a capitalist

42:51

dies. in the Towering Inferno, right?

42:53

Yeah, yeah. And everybody that acts

42:56

out of their own self-interest dies.

42:58

And the only people that, and

43:00

you don't, you're not assured to

43:03

live if you act for the

43:05

collective, but you at least have

43:07

a chance. And everybody, like

43:10

that's, of course, McQueen and

43:12

Newman, should embody this collective ethos,

43:14

which is, I mean, it's a great,

43:16

I just think it's a great film

43:19

and it doesn't get. the proper

43:21

recognition, but I think it's isn't

43:23

it about precisely this shifting this

43:25

attitude? And the last line of

43:27

the film, one of the maybe

43:30

the penultimate line, or maybe it's

43:32

the last line, Newman and McQueen

43:34

are talking McQueen's a fireman and

43:36

Newman is an architect. And it's

43:39

just kind of a simple point.

43:41

So Newman goes, you know, I, I, we got

43:43

to stop building the buildings like

43:45

we're building them because they lead

43:47

to these fires and McQueen says,

43:50

Why don't you ask us before you start

43:52

building them? And Newman's like, really? And he's

43:54

like, yeah, and he's like, yeah, and he's

43:56

like, just not tonight. It's kind of funny

43:58

because he's, he's like. pretty tired and

44:01

he's just saved everybody in

44:03

the building. But I think

44:05

it's like a simple point, but

44:07

you know what it's saying? It's

44:09

saying like, look, the capital has

44:11

to defer to the state before

44:14

it embarks on its projects. And

44:16

that's a, I think that's a

44:18

kind of a radical, it's

44:20

a Hegelian. critique of capitalism, but

44:22

which is why one reason I

44:24

like it, but it's also a

44:27

kind of, I think it's a

44:29

pretty radical statement. It's more radical

44:31

than anything that said in five

44:33

easy pieces, I think. No, that's

44:35

really interesting. I mean, like the,

44:37

I mean, again, just like the

44:39

whole point, like, like, no, these,

44:41

these disaster, I mean, disaster genre,

44:43

not. recognized as having like it

44:45

is that word schlock it is

44:47

always taken to these schlock and

44:49

it's it's one of those things

44:51

like you know I have a little

44:53

thing on I have a little thing

44:56

on this in I've talked about

44:58

this in my book, it's related

45:00

to children's films, like you know,

45:02

Pixar movies, is that they always,

45:04

like almost all the Pixar films,

45:06

it's just marked difference from the

45:08

Disney Princess film, many of which

45:11

I like, but like the, the

45:13

marked difference between the Disney Princess

45:15

film and the Pixar film is,

45:17

you go from like stories of

45:19

like individual attainment to stories of

45:21

a collective awakening, you know, like,

45:23

like it's almost every single one

45:25

of them. believable line about like

45:27

the if all the bugs realize

45:29

that they like they have more

45:32

like influence together I know that

45:34

it's it's crazy it's just I

45:36

mean cars is cars is I

45:38

spend a lot of time talking

45:40

too much I had to lose

45:42

ultra right like it's the it's

45:44

the top yeah I talk about

45:46

cars So often in my classes,

45:48

I, I, I, I, I, I,

45:50

it's not, probably not worth going

45:52

into right now exactly, but I'll,

45:54

I'll, I'll just say this, this

45:56

is like, isn't it too bad

45:58

that it's not? It's his second to

46:01

last film of Paul Newman. And he

46:03

kind of wished that it was, like

46:05

it was, you wish it was his

46:07

last film. It's like, don't you think

46:09

that happens at almost every great actor?

46:11

Like, Sydney Pollock, the great, like he

46:13

did Michael Clayton and then he did

46:15

one more. You do one more. You

46:17

got to one more. Yeah. Hackman did

46:19

runaway jury, which is amazing. And then

46:21

he did one more. You're like, just.

46:24

Could you stop with the one? You

46:26

know, but I guess you of course

46:28

you never know when it's gonna. You

46:30

never know. It's like you don't know.

46:32

Well, I mean, you know, the whole

46:34

thing like you don't know. You don't

46:37

know when the good times are until

46:39

you know, until you're past it. But

46:41

the, just the very quickly,

46:43

because we may, we'll probably

46:45

do an episode on Pixar

46:47

films, I'm sure, so we

46:50

could talk like, like, yeah,

46:52

it's it's out longer. guy,

46:54

I mean his car, his

46:57

own Wilson is a car,

46:59

who comes to learn that

47:01

winning for himself without. winning

47:03

for the community for the collective

47:05

is is meaningless and I I

47:08

find him to be like lightning

47:10

McQueen at the end of this

47:12

movie I find to be like

47:14

a Eugene Debs figure of like

47:16

I will not rise from the

47:18

ranks when I rise the ranks

47:20

rise with me and that is

47:22

expressed in this just like the

47:24

beautiful moment of pushing like of

47:26

giving up the ultimate prize and

47:28

racing and pushing a broken down

47:30

you know race car across the finish

47:33

line ahead of himself. And I

47:35

think the reason I started talking

47:37

about this is like the disaster

47:39

film. It's like. Can I just

47:42

say it's Ellen Wilson's greatest performance

47:44

by far. Yeah, bottle rocket? Yeah, I'm

47:46

just kidding. I like. Wilson. Or even

47:48

the internship, I think he's good. But

47:51

he's, I was being kind of serious.

47:53

Like I think he's really great. He's

47:56

great. As a voice actor in cars.

47:58

I really, really like him. He's very

48:00

good. But it's this thing. If you take

48:02

the, if you, if you, if you decide

48:05

that this, oh, well, this genre is

48:07

for kids, because real life, in real

48:09

life, it's like the departed, like stuff

48:11

is bad, and then it gets worse,

48:13

and that's the real message. It's like,

48:15

okay. So like then what you're, then

48:18

that's, I think. all equally symptomatic is

48:20

that we have all of this popular

48:22

media that showing the value in the

48:24

strength of the collective but like I

48:26

don't know that's for kids or it's

48:28

just like or then it happens in

48:31

a disaster phone it's like I know

48:33

but that's just like popcorn entertainment so

48:35

I don't have to take that message seriously

48:37

because it's just because 2012 is a bad

48:39

movie because day after tomorrow is a bad

48:42

movie. It's fun, but it's bad. So I

48:44

don't have to take it seriously. Tiring Inferno

48:46

is schlock. I don't have to take anything

48:48

it has to say seriously because it's just

48:50

about putting a bunch of people who you

48:53

know were named actors in a building, put

48:55

the building on fire, manufacturing drama. That's all

48:57

that you get to have this. If you

48:59

put this arms length between you and it,

49:01

then you don't ever have to think about

49:04

it. And that's like, I mean, I

49:06

mean, again, a very symptomatic act,

49:08

I would say, especially if what

49:10

always does that. Especially because those

49:12

are the films, right? And I

49:14

think cars, it's a great example

49:16

of the same thing, and just

49:18

like the disaster film, that are

49:20

asking us to change our relationship

49:23

to the symptom. I think. Cars

49:25

is asking us to change our relationship

49:27

to the capitalist system, right? Which is,

49:30

which is again, like, or to the,

49:32

sorry, to the capitalist symptom, right? Because

49:34

he is, he refuses to this, and

49:37

I think this is a really fascinating

49:39

thing, right, about that film and about

49:41

the end of it. Like, he refuses

49:43

to turn himself into a. He's already

49:46

a brand, he's already a commodity, but

49:48

he's in a way decomodifying himself in

49:50

the final gesture of the film, which

49:52

I think is pretty, I mean the

49:55

whole, the whole, you know, stop, the whole

49:57

being kind of lost in the middle of

49:59

the film. is part of how he

50:01

comes to that position. I mean,

50:03

you could almost say that the

50:06

whole middle of the film is

50:08

him undergoing a kind of psychoanalysis

50:10

and then he at the end

50:12

is able to do what he

50:14

does. But I think like the

50:16

disaster film is asking us to

50:18

say, okay, we have this symptom

50:20

of the apocalypse that we're constantly

50:23

talking about dealing with and we're

50:25

finding ways to either. It's interesting

50:27

because I think that there's a

50:29

lot of people that are just

50:31

apocalyptic in their thinking, right? Like

50:33

I think a lot of Trump

50:36

supporters are apocalyptic. I mean, they're

50:38

Christian, they're fundamentalist apocalyptic thinkers and

50:40

they believe like he's gonna bring

50:43

on the end of the world

50:45

and that will entail the rapture

50:47

for me, right? So they're fine

50:50

with that, but I think even

50:52

the people that are not, that aren't.

50:54

like pro-apocalyptic, I think, are nonetheless

50:56

caught up in this, in this

50:58

being consumed by the apocalypse. And

51:00

then, so then that, that, and

51:02

I think it functions as a,

51:04

as in that way as a

51:06

symptom. And then these, and then

51:08

the disaster film asks us to

51:10

change our relation, that rather than

51:12

seeing the symptom as this thing

51:14

that enables our. everyday life

51:17

to keep going on. Like,

51:19

okay, I'll think about the

51:21

apocalypse, but I won't really

51:23

think about it, and then

51:25

I'll, I'll live my everyday

51:27

life. It becomes the site

51:29

of an actual shit, we

51:31

shift our attitude towards it.

51:33

And I think that's the,

51:35

I mean, that's the, that's,

51:37

that's the shift toward a collective

51:39

response, which is, you know, it's

51:42

not, like no one in. No

51:44

one in towering inferno is trying

51:47

to affirm their identity as one

51:49

thing or another and also not

51:51

in cars, right? Like it's like

51:53

a universalist, not like it is

51:55

a universalist gesture. So I think

51:58

that that's, like that's, it's. It

52:00

seems to me like that's wrapped up

52:02

in this notion of symptom, that when

52:04

you see, like, so part of the

52:06

thing we talked about is the way you

52:08

have to change, you have to see

52:10

it not just as an obstacle, but

52:12

also as an impetus, also as not

52:14

just as a thing of a site

52:16

of suffering, but also as a site of

52:18

enjoyment. And then you have to see like,

52:21

this is the, this is the site not

52:23

of my own private problem, but a

52:25

thing that where I can actually people

52:27

can, people can, that ties me to

52:29

the collective. And I think it's, don't

52:32

you think it's harder to do with

52:34

individual symptoms? I think it is, right?

52:36

Like, for the longest time, I was

52:38

cured of it by a massage therapist

52:41

and a dentist of all people, but

52:43

I had a terrible, like constant, it's

52:45

known as TMJ, which is the joint

52:47

that it refers to, but a terrible

52:49

jaw pain, like I was never, if

52:52

anyone's, you know, chronic pain is not

52:54

a, it makes you not. Even more feel

52:56

like living like and I had just

52:58

chronic pain for like 20 years. It

53:01

was just no at no second was

53:03

it gone So just all the time

53:05

and it turns out that the things

53:08

that I were doing was doing to

53:10

alleviate it was exacerbating it Which is

53:12

even better as it is theoretically I

53:15

mean of course personally that was terrible,

53:17

but theoretically I love that that happened

53:19

because it's an incredibly Hegelian point But

53:22

but but that One of the things

53:24

I had to come to grips with

53:26

was that that jaw pain wasn't it

53:28

was a symptom for me of this

53:30

underlying stress and all this But it

53:33

was also the jaw was also the

53:35

site of my Enjoyment, right? Like

53:37

it wasn't just the site of my

53:39

chronic suffering. It was that of course,

53:41

but it was also the site of

53:43

enjoyment and then that is the like that's

53:45

the thing that ends up like And

53:47

what's interesting is, this is so fascinating

53:49

that we've been talking about changing your relationship

53:51

to it because that's what I did.

53:53

Like, I kept, all the time I was,

53:56

I was my left job, I would

53:58

massage it, massage it, and it. turned

54:00

out that my massage therapist

54:02

and dentist kind of found this

54:04

out that the problem was that my

54:06

left side of my face was too

54:08

loose it was too relaxed and it

54:11

was the right side that was tight

54:13

and so any all that massaging on

54:15

the left just made it worse and

54:17

worse and worse because it was this

54:20

imbalance that was the problem so I

54:22

then she did all the massage on

54:24

the right side and then this the

54:26

pain went away. So isn't it interesting

54:28

like Even that physical symptom, changing the

54:31

relation to it, like rather than like

54:33

focusing directly on fixing it, like that's

54:35

how it got, that's how it got

54:37

addressed. I just think it's, I always

54:39

find that, I mean, I know it's

54:41

my own personal, who cares, but I

54:44

just think it's just like the way

54:46

turning away from the direct address is

54:48

the thing that changes it. No, that's

54:50

great. That's a, that's a perfect example.

54:52

I mean, well, you know, you also

54:54

had to do is you had to,

54:57

You had to take that seriously that

54:59

it could be different. You know, like, because

55:01

it's very easy to be like, well,

55:03

this is just the way things are.

55:05

I have T.M.J. That's a diagnosis. That's

55:07

how it is. So that's just the

55:09

way it is. I can't not have

55:11

it. It's a diagnosis. You know,

55:14

we can't not have capitalism. We can't

55:16

not have crises of capitalism. That's just

55:18

the way it is. That's, you know.

55:20

And the only like, like, like, like,

55:23

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

55:25

like, That film, the only thing I

55:27

can do is like find some private

55:30

enjoyment within all the crises and that's

55:32

how I, that's what I can do.

55:34

And it's- Right, I think it's, that's

55:37

such a good, that's such a good

55:39

way to think about it because I

55:41

think like, that's the most common

55:43

response to the symptom, right? Is

55:46

to, is to retreat into privacy,

55:48

rather than to think like, oh,

55:50

we can collectively change our relationship

55:52

to the symptom. And I think

55:55

that's the, To me, don't

55:57

you think like that's...

55:59

I don't... probably too much to

56:01

say, but I think that's one

56:03

of the, maybe it's the

56:06

main contribution of

56:08

psychoanalysis to politics, right?

56:10

Like to think, to say, like,

56:12

no, the point is really

56:14

just, can you change, is it

56:17

possible to change your relationship to

56:19

the symptom? I don't know, maybe

56:21

that's too much to say.

56:24

I think, I think that's probably

56:26

right. I mean, I think that

56:28

it's. Are you know thinking about the

56:31

what we think of are the

56:33

important contributions in

56:35

psycho analysis like so thinking

56:37

about enjoyment thinking about

56:39

the subject thinking about the

56:41

unconscious and you know being

56:43

subjected we're subjects of the

56:45

unconscious and that we're subjected

56:47

to it like in and

56:49

that like we subject ourselves

56:52

to it and so the parapraxis

56:54

so like the like the slip

56:56

and everyday life. at all manner.

56:58

I think thinking about it strictly

57:00

politically, you know, like, you

57:02

know, what is it, you know, Joan

57:05

has a great line about death

57:07

drive and Freud, is it like

57:09

it substitutes for, like that's his

57:11

ontology, that's not, that's his, so

57:13

like, I'm trying to, I'm trying

57:16

to find like, what would be

57:18

like a, like a bigger concept, I

57:20

think death drive, that's what I,

57:22

that's what I thought, maybe I

57:25

overstated, maybe I overstated, I

57:27

don't know if, I mean, this is

57:29

worth an entire episode to tease

57:31

out, but like, quite often people

57:33

make the death drive causal for

57:35

the problems of the world. And that,

57:37

that's, it just doesn't work that

57:39

way. It's like the death drive,

57:41

I think this would be, I

57:43

suppose, my little political twist on

57:45

that is like, I think the

57:47

death drive, if you understand it,

57:49

like, it makes. the problems of

57:51

the world make sense and there

57:53

and then the next thing you

57:55

have to do is is not

57:57

just accepted as such you know

58:00

because even like we talked about

58:02

civilization is discontent that's kind of

58:04

what what Freud thought is like

58:06

by at the end is that

58:08

like oh because of the drive

58:10

where we are always just gonna

58:12

do this to each other and

58:14

I think that that's one like

58:16

that veers too much into making

58:18

the death drive like causal for

58:20

social ills and and and upheaval

58:22

in the bad sense like but

58:24

they're just we have to This

58:26

is why I think the symptom

58:28

is maybe is more political because it's

58:31

the same thing is that like you

58:33

change your like no you can't eliminate

58:35

the death drive you can't make the

58:37

death drive the work like articulate differently

58:39

from for you or for the social

58:41

but we can change our relation to

58:43

it and it sounds simple but I

58:45

think it's very very important you know

58:47

like I yeah if the point of

58:49

the death drive is that you undermine

58:51

yourself well just like plea like I've

58:53

said this before in the show and

58:55

like I'm very insisted on this think

58:57

about the time that you've undermined yourself

58:59

into a better situation right you know like

59:01

or or or or or done something better like

59:03

I think I was talking about this

59:05

in class actually this past

59:07

week, like I think you can't

59:09

imagine an ethical act that's

59:11

not linked to the death

59:13

drive, right? Because you're undermining

59:15

yourself interest and that's what

59:18

allows you to act ethically.

59:20

Anything that brings you into

59:22

the world, I would say,

59:24

that takes you out of

59:26

your privacy is the death

59:28

drive, you know, bringing you

59:30

into the new and not

59:32

just like being this. Again,

59:34

you know, the the the zombie that

59:36

the formation of the drive that I

59:38

that I will several episodes ago talked

59:41

about not being very much a big

59:43

yeah, I don't like that at all.

59:45

Yeah, I don't like that at all.

59:47

Yeah, I think that that really

59:49

Yeah, I mean you've already said

59:52

the critique but I think that

59:54

that really it like de- I

59:56

don't know as good as I'm

59:58

done, but it dehumanizes. it in

1:00:00

a way and gives it a kind

1:00:02

of automatic function. Yes. And I think

1:00:05

it's anything but automatic. I think it's

1:00:07

like what, to me it's like the

1:00:09

disruption. And I think it's interesting because

1:00:11

I think LaCon's trajectory I think changes

1:00:13

on this, right? Like I think he,

1:00:16

or maybe he's too much on the

1:00:18

side of this automatic. Certainly when he

1:00:20

links the death drive to the functioning

1:00:22

of the symbolic order early on It's

1:00:24

just an automatic function, right? Like that's

1:00:27

that's that's how he sees it and

1:00:29

then later maybe that gets shifted

1:00:31

it becomes this hiccup in the

1:00:33

in the automaton, right? Like he

1:00:36

when he in seminar 11, four

1:00:38

fundamental concepts of psychoanalysis, he distinguishes

1:00:40

between these two concepts from Aristotle,

1:00:43

automaton and 2K, and 2K is

1:00:45

this encounter, and automaton is this,

1:00:48

as the word suggests, this automatic

1:00:50

functioning, and I think that the

1:00:52

hiccup becomes the thing for him,

1:00:54

and so that's what I would want

1:00:57

to say, like, the problem with the

1:00:59

zombie is there's no hiccups in the

1:01:01

zombie. No. The hicup is the whole

1:01:04

point, right? Like the hicup. Like that's

1:01:06

what's driving us if we're driven by

1:01:08

the death drive. But yeah, I think

1:01:10

you're, I think, but I think, I

1:01:13

want to get back to the, because

1:01:15

it's equally, I just want last thing,

1:01:17

because it's equally, I think it is

1:01:20

equally as symptomatic to conclude that, oh,

1:01:22

because the, to conclude that, oh,

1:01:24

because of the, I think it

1:01:26

is equally as symptomatic to conclude

1:01:28

that, and I don't think, and

1:01:30

I don't think, and maybe we

1:01:32

should say that is a, a

1:01:34

tendentious understanding of the phrase, enjoy your

1:01:36

symptom. Is it like, yeah, I wanna

1:01:39

get, yeah, I think we should get

1:01:41

to that phrase too, that, which obviously

1:01:43

Slavway used as the title for his,

1:01:45

was it his fifth book or something?

1:01:48

Yeah, I think that that's, that we

1:01:50

definitely should talk about that. Yeah, I

1:01:52

was just gonna say I think that

1:01:54

that, that, what's interesting about you, the

1:01:56

way that you describe death drive death

1:01:59

drive, right, like. is that our response

1:02:01

to both the death drive and the symptom

1:02:03

is kind of the same, right?

1:02:05

Like in a sense that what

1:02:07

we have to do is change

1:02:09

our relationship to... It's not like

1:02:11

you're going to get rid of

1:02:13

the death drive, just like you're

1:02:15

not going to get rid of

1:02:17

the symptom. And again, I think

1:02:19

that's what separates psychoanalysis, psychoanetic theory

1:02:21

from... therapy from medicine, right? Like

1:02:23

if someone said, if I go

1:02:25

into the doctor and they're like,

1:02:27

well, sorry, you're just going to

1:02:29

have this symptom your entire life,

1:02:31

it's just, I'd be like, well,

1:02:33

I'd like to do doctor, please.

1:02:35

But that's what psychoanalysis says, like

1:02:37

the symptom is, that's what you

1:02:40

have, but you have to change your

1:02:42

relationship to it. And I think that's

1:02:44

what you're saying about death drive. Yes.

1:02:47

You just have it. And then the

1:02:49

question is what relationship are you going

1:02:51

to take up to it? And I

1:02:54

think that's again where, you can also

1:02:56

think about this in terms of consciousness

1:02:58

and unconscious, right? Like, that's where we

1:03:01

can consciously, obviously we can't decide to

1:03:03

intervene unconsciously. That doesn't really exist at

1:03:05

all. But where can you consciously? decide

1:03:08

to intervene while changing your conscious relation

1:03:10

to these unconscious processes. That's what I

1:03:12

think that's what we're trying to talk

1:03:14

about. But let's get to now, because

1:03:17

I think you're right to bring this

1:03:19

term up, because I think a lot

1:03:21

of people will have this in mind.

1:03:24

Even if they haven't read that book,

1:03:26

they've certainly heard Slavoy say that and

1:03:28

it's a, I think it's become

1:03:30

a common statement and certainly

1:03:32

is rather than like cure

1:03:34

your symptom or get rid

1:03:36

of your symptom, enjoy your

1:03:38

symptom, sounds, it sounds a

1:03:40

lot different, it sounds a

1:03:43

lot more radical or disruptive

1:03:45

or just non-common sensical,

1:03:47

right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does.

1:03:50

And it's, I think the

1:03:52

important thing, just to, because, you

1:03:54

know, we've been, we've been talking

1:03:56

for, for, for, for a little

1:03:58

bit now, so, uh, I don't

1:04:00

know how the value in

1:04:03

teasing this thing out slowly.

1:04:05

So I'll go with the

1:04:07

negative and then you go

1:04:09

with the positive. I

1:04:12

think that it's dangerous

1:04:14

to understand that

1:04:16

phrase and that idea

1:04:18

as locate the thing that

1:04:20

you do that is most

1:04:23

disruptive to to others and

1:04:25

to like society and then you

1:04:28

keep doing that and then but

1:04:30

you enjoy that because that's like

1:04:32

that's not what he's saying that's

1:04:34

just a formula for it would

1:04:36

be nothing less than a formula

1:04:38

for perversion like and I think

1:04:40

people do understand it that way

1:04:42

and for for people who I

1:04:44

don't know heard that before or

1:04:46

don't know how to how to locate

1:04:49

that like the great I think

1:04:51

contemporary formulation of for perversion is

1:04:53

main character syndrome like thinking you

1:04:55

know if you go you go

1:04:58

out in the world and then

1:05:00

you and I mean this like

1:05:02

I said in the last episode

1:05:04

I see a lot of people

1:05:07

practicing being private in public here

1:05:09

all the time which is another

1:05:11

way of not being part of

1:05:13

the public and like the middle

1:05:16

of the street or like the,

1:05:18

you know, like on the sub

1:05:20

corner. And it's like, oh, okay,

1:05:22

I am a, I am an

1:05:24

extra in this, the movie of

1:05:26

this person's life. Like that, like

1:05:28

that's, that is an everyday perversion.

1:05:30

Is that, that person acting that

1:05:32

way? So that's not like, like,

1:05:35

I have NBC syndrome. Yes, that's

1:05:37

right. That's, that's pretty good. So

1:05:39

the, yeah. And I think that's

1:05:41

a popular, or I just learned

1:05:43

that word, by the way. That's

1:05:45

why I wanted to say it,

1:05:47

because I just told it. No, it's good.

1:05:49

No, I know you did. You said it in the

1:05:51

last episode, too. Oh, did I? So it's more than

1:05:53

three days ago. So yeah. Yeah. Now I've got it

1:05:55

caught up on it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to. I'm

1:05:57

going to use it as much as I can. You

1:05:59

should. Yeah. becomes just a thing that

1:06:01

you learned like a month ago

1:06:03

or two months ago or whatever.

1:06:05

But yeah, I think that that

1:06:07

is a way that I've seen

1:06:09

people understand like people understand what

1:06:11

what Slavo is saying that like

1:06:13

oh yeah just like no one

1:06:15

says it this way but he's not

1:06:17

saying like yeah embrace being a pervert.

1:06:20

That's the that's the way to be

1:06:22

absolutely not. Yeah. So that gave you

1:06:24

the negative now you give us the.

1:06:26

So what does it mean? So what

1:06:28

does it mean? is to say, look

1:06:30

at that, and I think it's

1:06:32

tied to, I mean, we've, in

1:06:35

a way, we've been saying this

1:06:37

all along, right? Like, think of

1:06:39

the things that, think of what

1:06:42

is, you view as the greatest

1:06:44

hindrance in your existence, right? The

1:06:47

greatest obstacle, the thing that's really

1:06:49

barring you from being what you

1:06:51

wanna be. And can you shift

1:06:54

your relationship to that? I think

1:06:56

that's what he's saying. Can you

1:06:58

enjoy. Even that right like Nietzsche

1:07:01

has this line. Okay. It's Frederick

1:07:03

Nietzsche. And so we're not we're not

1:07:05

the fans of Nietzsche on the

1:07:07

show necessarily but He says like

1:07:09

can you be he says like

1:07:12

even you know the the the

1:07:14

world just going to repeat itself

1:07:16

This is a notion of the

1:07:18

eternal return like infinitely right and

1:07:20

he goes can you be philosopher

1:07:22

enough to embrace even this nothing

1:07:25

right and I think that's what?

1:07:27

Slava would never put it like

1:07:29

that, but I think that's what enjoy

1:07:31

your symptom means. Like can you actually

1:07:33

enjoy the thing? Can you embrace the

1:07:36

enjoyment of the thing? Because you already

1:07:38

are enjoying it in a sense, right?

1:07:40

Can you embrace the enjoyment

1:07:42

of this thing that is destroying

1:07:45

you? And I think that's the

1:07:47

relationship between enjoyment, the symptom, enjoy

1:07:49

your symptom and death drive. But

1:07:51

I think that's the idea. And

1:07:54

so it's the opposite of embrace

1:07:56

being a pervert. Yeah. Right. And

1:07:58

embrace this public. of one symptom,

1:08:01

but instead it's like, see

1:08:03

the way in which what

1:08:05

is damaging you is also enabling

1:08:07

you in a profound way.

1:08:09

I do think it's a,

1:08:11

what's fascinating about that, it's

1:08:13

a kind of a, it's,

1:08:15

don't you think it's a

1:08:17

little bit of an anti-edifice

1:08:19

kind of a thing? Like,

1:08:22

enjoy your symptom? Like, I'm

1:08:24

sorry, this is gonna, I'm thinking

1:08:26

this in a kind of roundabout

1:08:28

way, but, Okay, it's, it's, you

1:08:30

know what, my life would be

1:08:32

fine except for my parents. They

1:08:35

just screwed me because they did

1:08:37

blah blah blah, blah, right? And

1:08:39

I think if you enjoy your

1:08:41

symptom, you say like, okay, like,

1:08:43

yeah, they, my parents really put

1:08:45

me in a bad spot or

1:08:48

they really like didn't, I mean,

1:08:50

I'm obviously not talking about physical

1:08:52

abuse or anything, right? But just,

1:08:55

just like, typical bad parenting, which

1:08:57

is the only kind there. So

1:08:59

I think that you have to

1:09:01

see that as also enabling

1:09:03

for you right like not

1:09:05

just this trap you have

1:09:08

to get out of But also

1:09:10

this thing that like set

1:09:12

up your very structure of

1:09:14

of enjoyment that you have

1:09:16

to then That's that's what

1:09:18

you have and you have

1:09:20

to embrace that and so

1:09:22

I think that there's something of

1:09:25

that kind of like the figures

1:09:27

that seemed like they determined you

1:09:29

in a way that is you wish you

1:09:31

weren't determined, but seeing them is actually

1:09:34

also enabling something for you. I think

1:09:36

that's the, that's what he's getting at.

1:09:38

Can I hate you with a formulation?

1:09:40

You tell me if you think this

1:09:42

is just to braid this conversation because

1:09:44

I think it is related to the

1:09:47

last one we had, which wasn't that

1:09:49

long ago because of the way we

1:09:51

accorded this, we don't normally do

1:09:53

this, but would you would you say that

1:09:55

enjoying your symptom and the way that we've

1:09:58

been having this conversation. needs

1:10:00

to be understood as

1:10:02

this. What is the point at

1:10:04

which you prevent yourself

1:10:06

from being a part of

1:10:09

the world, being a part

1:10:11

of the public, and rather

1:10:14

than allowing that as the

1:10:16

excuse, you try to enjoy

1:10:18

that thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's

1:10:20

great. It's great. I think

1:10:23

that's right. I think, yeah,

1:10:25

it ties, I think so well,

1:10:27

I mean, I think that this.

1:10:30

It's interesting because I had a lot

1:10:32

of people respond to me and

1:10:34

I really appreciated it for our

1:10:36

episode on the public and I

1:10:38

think it's because people really feel

1:10:40

like the public's in danger and

1:10:43

I think how we respond to

1:10:45

the symptom is one of the ways

1:10:47

we fight to preserve the

1:10:49

public. I think that's what

1:10:51

you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1:10:53

yeah. I absolutely, absolutely agree

1:10:56

with you. So, Orion, I

1:10:58

think we have a lot

1:11:00

to choose from. I know.

1:11:02

But we know that one

1:11:04

thing cannot be the lesson,

1:11:07

which is that Julia Roberts

1:11:09

Ethan Hawk film that I've

1:11:11

repressed the name of. Yes.

1:11:13

Tell me, what's the lesson? Has to

1:11:15

be I mean have we I'm now

1:11:18

wonder I'm a little worried that we

1:11:20

have recommended this as the as the

1:11:22

pairing to the episode before But is

1:11:24

it the towering Inferno have we done

1:11:26

that before? I know we've never done

1:11:28

towering inferno. Okay. Thank goodness But I

1:11:30

was going to say maybe is the

1:11:33

lesson watch cars. I know that's why

1:11:35

it's a tough one to choose from

1:11:37

it's a tough one. I know I

1:11:39

I I agree. I will say dealer's

1:11:41

choice, depending on your situation, which one.

1:11:44

Okay, so I'm, am I the

1:11:46

dealer? So I'm gonna. You're the

1:11:48

dealer. You're the dealer. Okay, I'm

1:11:50

gonna choose. Because you brought it

1:11:53

up and I don't think we've,

1:11:55

because I'm not a great

1:11:57

lover of cartoons, so I'm

1:11:59

gonna say. The lesson is watch

1:12:01

cars. Watch cars. Watch cars time

1:12:03

again. Can I tell a very

1:12:05

quick story? Yes, you may. All

1:12:08

right, okay. That, um, that movie

1:12:10

played every single day when

1:12:12

I was working at Walmart.

1:12:14

And I, for, it was, so I

1:12:17

think I've said this before, when you

1:12:19

work in a place like

1:12:21

Walmart Electronics Department, it's just

1:12:23

like, it's the same, like

1:12:25

three. if you're lucky, three

1:12:27

movies or I repeat. And

1:12:29

I, when the HD TVs

1:12:32

were new and you know,

1:12:34

obviously like, you know, cars was

1:12:36

a movie that looked really good.

1:12:38

It would highlight the, you know, the

1:12:41

differences across televisions. It was

1:12:43

on every single day, every

1:12:45

single day that I went

1:12:47

in and I started to

1:12:49

think I was like, I'm

1:12:51

not. This isn't a five-hour

1:12:53

shift or a nine-hour shift

1:12:55

or a ten-hour shift. This

1:12:57

is however many times cars

1:12:59

plays. So I'm like, I'm

1:13:01

working three cars today. Or

1:13:03

I'm working five cars today.

1:13:05

Like that's what I'm doing.

1:13:07

And I just had, I

1:13:09

had this, I detested this phone.

1:13:12

And then there was some day

1:13:14

where there was like nothing going on.

1:13:16

I just kind of stood and watched

1:13:18

it and watched it for like a

1:13:20

half hour and when and then there

1:13:23

was just this again I want to

1:13:25

really impress it was weeks weeks

1:13:27

of this and I've just been

1:13:29

seeing bits and pieces and then

1:13:31

I had this opportunity kind of

1:13:34

to like watch the last half

1:13:36

hour of the movie basically straight

1:13:38

through and when Lightning McQueen says

1:13:40

this grumpy old race car I

1:13:42

know it's just an empty cup it's

1:13:44

just an empty cup. I burst into

1:13:47

tears. And yeah, and I just like, I

1:13:49

was like, oh, I was like, what the

1:13:51

hell is happening to me? And this was

1:13:53

like, as people know, if you're putting my

1:13:56

timeline together, this was, this was after I

1:13:58

was in the car accident and. So I

1:14:00

was on, like a lot of different

1:14:02

medications. One of them was anti-psychotics. My

1:14:04

like emotions were all over the place.

1:14:06

So I just like, I blamed it

1:14:08

on that. And I just thought it

1:14:10

was this silly thing that I had

1:14:12

this like, that I, what I guess

1:14:14

what I would now say, like that

1:14:16

I could affect it to this movie

1:14:18

and just like a really weird way.

1:14:21

But like I really, I find that

1:14:23

that film and that message at the

1:14:25

end that I described earlier, like I

1:14:27

find it really quite touching quite touching.

1:14:29

Is the only spy thriller in

1:14:31

the cartoon in the Pixar

1:14:33

world? And it's quite good.

1:14:36

It is wildly underrated also,

1:14:38

I think so. So not

1:14:41

to be missed. But the

1:14:43

recommendation is, certainly, is cars.

1:14:45

Right. All right. Over and

1:14:48

outright. Over and outside.

1:15:00

So,