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It's registry Bahamas. Ships Registry Bahamas. Hello,

1:06

I'm Luke Turner. Welcome to Why, the

1:08

podcast that explores this huge questions that

1:11

exist at the back of our minds.

1:30

I spent most of my life obsessed with

1:33

music. It got me through

1:35

my teenage years, saved my life a

1:37

few times. And then I turned that

1:39

obsession into a career by becoming a

1:41

music journalist. Throughout that time, I've been

1:43

driven not by nerdy fascination with record

1:45

labels and catalog numbers, but how music

1:47

makes me feel. From

1:50

being transported back to the family car

1:52

by Enya, to the chaotic exuberance of

1:54

teenage years with Suede, or how Leonard

1:56

Cohen has guided me through life's choppy

1:58

waters. to music is

2:01

closely connected to both my memories

2:03

and emotions. It's

2:05

both the shock of the new and

2:07

the comfort of familiarity, feelings both happy,

2:09

sad and all in between. As

2:12

I've got an older, I've wondered why it

2:14

is that a particular combination of melody and

2:16

rhythm can have such a profound effect on

2:18

my brain, even when there aren't

2:20

any words involved, though that can help. And

2:26

what's the science behind how music connects

2:28

with our emotional state of mind? Today

2:31

on Why we're asking, why

2:34

does music make me

2:36

feel? Music is in masses of

2:38

different areas of the brain and when we

2:40

look in brain scanners when people are improvising,

2:42

when they're performing, when they're listening to music,

2:44

we see huge amounts of activation. Catherine

2:47

Love-Day is a professor of neuropsychology at

2:49

the University of Westminster, author

2:51

of The Secret World of the Brain

2:53

and regularly appears as an expert psychologist

2:56

on BBC Radio 4's All in the

2:58

Mind. We know from

3:00

research that music and dance actually do

3:02

make us feel very connected and there's

3:04

been a couple of studies that have

3:07

looked at brain activity and showed synchronized

3:09

brain activity in people that are performing

3:11

together or even listening to music together

3:13

and also high levels of things like

3:15

oxytocin, which is a neurohormone that makes

3:18

us feel connected and bonded. Catherine,

3:23

if it's right, let's start with quite a

3:25

broad question. Why does music make me feel?

3:27

Well, that's not only a broad question, that

3:29

is a massive question because there are lots

3:31

of different theories about what's going on. I

3:34

think that's also what drew me to researching

3:36

this because it's such a powerful thing, isn't

3:38

it? So one thing, one obvious

3:40

thing is that music is reminding us of stuff.

3:42

So you talked about some of your favourite songs

3:45

just then and music takes us back in time,

3:47

it takes us back to a whole range of

3:49

events. But music also

3:51

has some very inherent qualities, it

3:53

taps into our communication system. So

3:55

rhythm, timbre, melody, all those things

3:57

you were mentioning are part of our

3:59

communication. system. When I'm talking to

4:01

you I'm using those elements to

4:04

communicate my emotions. So

4:06

there are certain features of music like the

4:08

idea of coming home and kind of moving

4:10

away from home, building expectations and there's also

4:12

some really fundamental stuff around things like major

4:14

and minor chords and we see that you

4:17

can see major and minor chords in the

4:19

way people speak and we can see different

4:21

types of brain activity. I think

4:23

that's really interesting talking about the idea of communication,

4:25

you know, which is a very fundamental thing that

4:28

makes us human, the ability to communicate with other

4:30

humans. When we look at the brain

4:32

can you see that a lot of different parts

4:34

of the brain are activated by music? Is this

4:36

why it's so powerful that it just does so

4:38

much to our minds? Yeah, in fact

4:40

one thing you can do is you can give me the

4:42

opportunity here to dispel a myth that music is just

4:44

in the right hemisphere of the brain and that's

4:46

just not true. Music is in masses of

4:49

different areas of the brain and when we

4:51

look in brain scanners when people are improvising,

4:53

when they're performing, when they're listening to music

4:55

we see huge amounts of activation. There

4:57

are some that are particularly activated so we

4:59

see a lot of activity in the sort

5:02

of areas of the brain, the auditory cortex

5:04

that process laughter and crying and screaming and

5:06

those kind of things but we also see

5:08

a lot of activity in the cerebellum at

5:10

the back which is about movement and rhythm

5:12

and wanting to feel up with getting up

5:14

and dancing and particularly in

5:16

the limbic system which is the emotion centre for

5:18

the brain and the hippocampus which is memory. Is

5:21

it fair to say that music affects more of the brain

5:23

than nearly anything else? I don't know,

5:25

I think that's a big statement to make but it

5:27

certainly does impact a lot of different areas of the

5:29

brain and you can see a huge amount of activity.

5:32

How do we see that? Is there sort of

5:34

brain mapping studies or how do you analyse musicians

5:36

or people when they're listening to music? What's the

5:38

science behind it? Actually it's quite

5:40

hard because people's music choices are very very individual

5:43

so I could put you in the scanner with

5:45

a particular music that does absolutely nothing for you

5:47

and I'm not going to see the same kind

5:49

of activity as if I gave you music that

5:51

is really meaningful to you. So one of my

5:54

favourite studies was where they asked people to bring

5:56

in a piece of music that gave them the

5:58

shiver down the spine. I don't know

6:00

if you know where you get a certain moment

6:02

in the music and it just gives you that

6:05

real kind of physiological response. And

6:07

it's very measurable. We can see it in people's sweat,

6:09

we can see it in the heart rate, but we

6:11

also can see it in the brain. And they asked

6:13

people to bring this music and they tracked what was

6:15

happening in their brain as this

6:18

kind of climactic moment happened. And

6:21

they saw a trigger across something called

6:23

the reward pathway in the brain. And

6:25

it triggered an area called the nucleus

6:27

accumbens, which is this kind of pleasure

6:29

centre in our brain. So it was almost like a kind

6:32

of like a musical orgasm, if you like. That's

6:34

amazing. It's funny, when you said that about the

6:36

ask people to bring something that gives you the shivers, I instantly

6:38

thought of a piece of music that did and I got that

6:41

experience. It's amazing. That recall is so

6:43

powerful, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah,

6:45

it's incredible that actually we found in our research, people don't even

6:47

need to hear the music. They can just think of it to

6:49

get some of the same effects. That's amazing. And

6:52

some of this is linked with memory, isn't it? Yeah, that's

6:54

something that I've been researching a lot.

6:56

I find it absolutely intriguing. And

6:59

I mean, I'm intrigued by how quickly people

7:01

recognise pieces of music. We only need like

7:04

a half second to recognise music we know

7:06

well. But what I'm really

7:08

interested in is the memories, the

7:10

autobiographical memories, the moments from our life that

7:12

pop into our mind when we hear a

7:14

piece of music or even think about a

7:17

piece of music. And we

7:19

found that people are very likely to have

7:21

music that reminds them, for example, of road

7:23

trips or of particular moments and

7:25

then times in their life, particularly people.

7:28

So we've analysed desert island discs and

7:30

done several of our other studies. And

7:32

we find that people are very often

7:35

likely to choose music that reminds them

7:37

of a specific person, but

7:39

also these kind of very special turning points

7:41

in their life. I love that desert

7:43

island disc research, that was really fascinating. And

7:45

in that research, you sort of found that

7:48

a lot of people who've been on the programme,

7:50

it's very connected to their teenage years. Yes. And

7:53

sort of Suede and Lenneco in the intro and

7:55

that very much for me music, I still love

7:57

today, but that was where I discovered it. it

8:00

meant a lot. Why is it that we feel

8:02

that in our teenagers? Is it to do with

8:04

hormones and sort of sexual desire for the first

8:06

time and all those, that soupy feeling? Do

8:08

you know it's almost certainly a mixture of

8:10

a whole load of things. One of the

8:12

really important things is that our brain is

8:15

probably really good at encoding things at that

8:17

point in our life. It's really a tip-top

8:19

condition. But also it's a very

8:21

emotional time in our life and we tend

8:23

to use music to manage our emotions during

8:25

that time. And our research

8:27

is particularly to what we call

8:30

self-defining moments. So music that links

8:32

to a particular kind of

8:34

almost eureka moment, a time when we

8:36

made a really key decision about who

8:38

we wanted to be, where we wanted to go, where

8:40

we want to live. And people

8:42

often choose music that takes them back

8:44

to those real self-defining moments or a

8:46

period that is self-defining like just moving

8:49

to university or something. Can

8:51

you tell us a bit about the reminiscence bunk, which

8:53

is a fantastic term. Can you explain that to us?

8:55

So this is the idea that people

8:58

have a preference for music from their

9:00

teenage years. They also recognize it better

9:02

and they're also more likely to have

9:04

memories associated with music from that time.

9:07

And we have found really consistently that it

9:09

peaks around 15. Now we see this for

9:12

other things like films and books and you

9:14

can even trigger it with words and so

9:16

on. But with music we

9:18

find it's particularly powerful. We found that it's

9:20

bigger for music than for most other things

9:22

and it peaks at this very specific point

9:25

of 15. It's anywhere between 10 and

9:27

30. But we also have a cascading

9:29

reminiscence bump. So we also tend to

9:32

have this recognition and better sort of

9:34

connection with music that comes from our

9:36

parents' generation. And you mentioned, you know,

9:39

Cohen, you know, so in some ways

9:41

maybe that's what's going on there. And

9:43

even our grandparents' generation. So it kind

9:45

of feeds through the connection of people.

9:48

Do you think there's a communal aspect to that as

9:50

well? That actually is quite a nice thing about music.

9:52

I went to see the Pash mode last week and

9:55

there was people who were a lot older than me

9:57

who got into them in the 80s. People my age

9:59

from the 90s. and then a

10:01

lot of people who are a lot younger

10:03

with their parents and that kind of that

10:05

cascading reminiscence and the shared memory and the

10:07

shared exaltation of live music, that's a really

10:10

powerful way of bringing people together. Yeah,

10:12

absolutely. And that's why I think it's

10:14

so interesting that people often when you

10:16

ask them about music, it's important to

10:18

them. They often talk about music that

10:20

is about connecting with other people. And,

10:23

you know, we know from research that

10:25

music and dance actually do make us

10:27

feel very connected. And there's been a

10:30

couple of studies that have looked at

10:32

brain activity and showed synchronised brain activity

10:34

in people that are performing together or

10:37

even listening to music together, and also

10:39

high levels of things

10:41

like oxytocin, which is a neuro hormone that

10:43

makes us feel connected and bonded. That's

10:46

really interesting. We think about that in the context

10:48

of the dance floor, which has a sort of

10:50

a lot of utopian speaking about it. And then

10:52

sometimes you can be a bit cynical about and

10:54

say, well, you know, acid house and club culture

10:56

is fueled by ecstasy, but maybe ecstasy and the

10:59

MDMA is picking up on what's already there and

11:01

just tightening it somewhat. Yeah, I've

11:03

thought about this quite a lot, actually. One

11:05

of the things that happens when you have

11:07

a sort of four on the floor type,

11:09

very regular beats, particularly now with the sort

11:11

of electronic beat that is absolutely, you know,

11:13

totally regular, is that that

11:16

is stimulating a regular brainwave. So

11:18

you're having a brain activity that's

11:20

pulsing with that beat. And often

11:22

if we're moving with

11:25

that beat as well, we're heightening

11:27

that. So we're almost creating a

11:29

particular state of consciousness by kind

11:31

of invoking this particular brainwave

11:34

with this very, very regular activity.

11:37

Oh, wow, that's amazing. So everything

11:39

works in sort of physical, the

11:41

emotional, the surrounding people and everything

11:43

can work in sort of partnership.

11:45

Yeah, we're very rhythmic creatures. And so

11:47

when we can kind of tap into a rhythm

11:49

like that, I mean, some people have argued against

11:52

it, but it makes total sense

11:54

physiologically that you are pulsing the

11:56

brain from lots of different

11:58

angles at exactly the same sort of pace

12:00

and rate. That's absolutely incredible. I'm

12:02

wondering though if we're going back to that

12:05

cascading memory in this idea of reminiscence bumps

12:07

and so on, can all of

12:09

this stop us being curious for new music? I love

12:11

listening to new music and I can get a bit

12:13

frustrated with some of my peers who just moan. You

12:15

know people moan about music not being as good as

12:17

it was. I think the 60s was held up as

12:19

the sort of greatest music ever and it's all been

12:22

in decline since by some people in the media. And

12:24

it's like it wasn't the greatest day but you were

12:26

just young when you heard it and it was the

12:28

first time this music existed in a mainstream way. Do

12:31

our brains sabotage our curiosity do you think?

12:33

That's a really interesting question. It has

12:35

been explored. Someone called David Hargreaves looked

12:38

a lot at this concept of what

12:40

he called open earedness and

12:42

decided that it changes over time and that

12:44

we become, in fact he showed that

12:46

in teenagers we become very closed eared because we

12:48

kind of really lock into what we're listening to

12:50

at that point and we block out other things

12:52

but then we become more open eared again. But

12:55

I don't know that that's necessarily

12:57

the same as we

13:00

found in our research that people are

13:02

very very bad at recognising music from

13:04

beyond the age of their 30s. So when

13:07

from the point onwards after 30 even if

13:09

they say they like it it just doesn't

13:11

seem to encode in quite the same way.

13:14

We just can't. We just don't seem to

13:16

be very good at doing that. And actually

13:18

I looked at this even with classical music

13:20

and we did a study with Radio 3

13:23

where we asked classical listeners

13:25

to choose their favourite recording

13:27

of six well-known classical pieces and

13:30

people were choosing a recording from

13:32

their reminiscence bump. It's not even

13:34

just a piece of music. They were drawn

13:37

to a particular recording and for them it

13:39

was the absolute best recording. So we do

13:41

get very kind of nostalgically pulled to that

13:43

period in our life. That's

13:50

really interesting and is that partly why

13:52

music can help in a therapeutic context?

13:54

I'm interested to know about how music can be

13:57

used to help people with dementia

13:59

for instance. Yeah, I think

14:01

the thing with music is that it's

14:03

a very powerful way of communicating. So

14:05

at one level, we don't even need

14:07

to be playing a particular type of

14:09

music, but music in itself is a

14:12

way of communicating with somebody where maybe

14:14

language is becoming less functional, and sort

14:16

of, for example, in autism and other

14:18

conditions like that. But of

14:20

course, we can use that memory stuff

14:22

to tap into someone's past as well.

14:24

And what you can do with

14:27

music is that you can use the sort

14:29

of music, you know, if we were

14:31

to play somebody something from when they were 15, music

14:34

that they liked at that time, then

14:36

they may not have any conscious memories.

14:38

It may not be enough to evoke

14:40

actual conscious memories, but it will still

14:42

make them have the feelings that came

14:44

with that time in their life. Ah,

14:47

right. So it's about summoning something deep within

14:49

them, rather than going, oh, I remember

14:51

then that I did this thing. That's fascinating.

14:54

Yeah, and there is research that shows

14:56

that older term, longer term musical memories

14:59

are more robust. They're less likely

15:01

to be impacted by things like

15:03

dementia than other memories are. I

15:05

mean, is there an ethical element where, has this been studied

15:07

in sort of brain mapping? Is it possible to do that

15:09

with people with dementia and playing the music and so on?

15:12

Or is it more sort of based

15:14

on studying their responses? Yeah, most of

15:16

the work is studying responses. And it's quite

15:18

varied because there are different ways to look

15:20

at it. You can look at people playing

15:22

music, listening to music, taking part in music.

15:25

They can be passive, they can be active.

15:27

But there is a very sort of consistent

15:29

finding that it improves wellbeing. I do have

15:31

a little caveat, which is I think we

15:33

have to be really careful that we don't

15:36

see music as a complete panacea. There are

15:38

a small number of people who just don't respond to

15:41

music at all. But the other thing that I am

15:43

really passionate about is that

15:45

we can't make an assumption about someone's

15:47

musical past. So you've told me what

15:49

music you like, but I

15:51

don't know that until you tell me. And

15:53

I don't know, what music do you really

15:55

hate? What's something that is really... Well,

15:58

where do I begin? a

16:00

more big fan of auto-tune. OK, so if

16:02

you had music that had a really high amount

16:04

of auto-tune on and you were forced to kind

16:07

of listen to it, you were in a captive

16:09

situation and you were forced to listen to it round

16:11

and round and round, how would it make you feel? I

16:13

would feel like I'd been captured by the SAS and I

16:15

was being tortured. And

16:17

I think this is the danger. I think

16:19

we have to be really careful to monitor

16:22

how somebody is responding to music and not

16:24

to make the assumption that music per se

16:26

is great because we have such individual relationships

16:28

of music. So,

16:59

let's get started. Hey there! Did

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kp2l So we've heard that music becomes intertwined

18:16

with our life experiences, which explains why the

18:19

music we listen to as teenagers stays with

18:21

us forever. But I'm wondering,

18:23

if we can get over the reminiscence

18:25

bump and remain open-eared, why do we

18:27

still get emotional when listening to music

18:29

that we have no specific connection to,

18:31

or even have never heard before? We

18:38

are inherently responsive to musical sounds,

18:41

and it goes back to this

18:43

idea of language and communication signals

18:45

and so on. I think there

18:48

is still quite a heavy cultural element, so

18:50

there are some elements of musical communication that

18:52

are deemed to be fairly universal, like if

18:54

something is picking up a tempo and it's

18:56

getting faster, or if something

18:59

is very high and then becomes

19:01

very low. Those kind of big

19:03

changes are fairly universal and will

19:05

affect people culturally. But

19:07

actually, most things at

19:09

least have a broad cultural aspect

19:11

to it. So within Western music,

19:14

we are used to particular scales.

19:16

And there's a great example of how we

19:19

have this need to come home. So if I go...

19:24

I feel I was a bit

19:26

flat, but never mind. But

19:35

you have to kind of... If you

19:37

hold it at that point, there's this real sense

19:39

that I need to come back. So we learn

19:41

this sense of where we are in a scale.

19:43

And when we're moved away from that point in

19:45

scale, we want to come back to it. And

19:47

when we land on it, we feel pleased. And

19:50

there are certain elements that become very

19:52

quickly learned as part of a sort

19:55

of almost a language, a feeling of

19:57

finality, a feeling of moving away. Certain

20:00

combinations of notes are inherent need some

20:02

more difficult to distances and others and

20:04

says some will evoke have any effect

20:06

unease Others will make us feel very

20:08

comfortable, some will make a sad, some

20:10

will make us feel happy some of

20:12

those on said he and vessel others

20:14

this of coach for the he learns.

20:17

That is interesting about just instinctively did the

20:19

know advanced think about our yard and I'm

20:21

wondering what we go back into. sort of

20:23

the presume and time. mm Maybe this is

20:26

a sort of slight hypothesis or something, but

20:28

could it? He argued that rhythm was used

20:30

for long distance communication whereas when I've read

20:32

about ancient instruments you'd find as a bone

20:35

flus and so on. the in what seemed

20:37

to be sacred space in caves of weather's

20:39

residents because residents who something that ancient people

20:41

would we we take for granted in buildings

20:44

but for ancient people that would have happened

20:46

in. Very small number of places

20:48

so you often find these instruments in

20:50

caves well as but his paintings will

20:52

Paintings Francis said is that we are

20:54

we to saying that there is a

20:57

sort of may be some sort of

20:59

spiritual thing and communication aspect to music

21:01

has been with us as we've involved

21:03

as humans right back thousands of years.

21:05

Certainly that see evidence system

21:07

is it goes back forever.

21:09

Ready for us, And honestly can. Establish

21:12

anything in it or and Smith's death

21:14

in some from three times and so

21:16

on and that is a case going

21:18

some things but I think also the

21:20

human voice he know we've always had

21:22

a human voice and even if you

21:24

look within our and development we use

21:26

the human voice to communicate with need

21:28

the full we have words and there

21:30

is this theory that that music without

21:32

communication tool before. Before. We developed

21:34

languages and one sammy. A

21:37

while and raising so. It is us to

21:39

fundamental part of communication and if you think

21:41

that it with a baby eaten have salaries

21:43

i quickly you can you can still communicate

21:46

with them to spike on it more of

21:48

oh and seat at all of these it's

21:50

just Melody Pit to Rhythm. Is interested

21:52

to look at these cultural aspects of music and

21:54

how you know we we there are reports be

21:57

about this of universal connections we might have all

21:59

said and. Is in western music

22:01

spot find it fascinating if i if

22:03

i listened to known west and musings

22:05

they can be totally different and it's

22:07

a gun often seem to western music

22:09

is to be discordant that really to

22:11

to whether cultures coming from isn't at

22:13

all and so we've all evolved in

22:16

sort of different directions and and i

22:18

find that a very serious so like

22:20

supposedly difficult music inside will over in

22:22

africa of could spend that can own

22:24

a number one who make very rhythmic

22:26

who a total sometimes music out junk

22:28

and it's a celebrate three music. Of

22:30

the poll whereas if somebody was doing

22:32

that here he will be called industrial

22:34

music. My mind that very interesting get

22:36

going to be about how those cultural

22:38

strands work. Yes, So

22:40

I think that little bit like language

22:43

so we'll have language that our language

22:45

and we all inherently very automatically pick

22:47

up language. but that language is defined

22:49

by our culture and and some of

22:51

the same things the influence how and

22:53

language developed. Also incident, pop music has

22:56

developed for for example, One thing Sex

22:58

and The Suckers developed is a literacy.

23:00

So it is you can't write things

23:02

down if you don't have any that

23:04

literacy than you tend to create music.

23:06

That's a little bit more rapacity is

23:08

that it doesn't have. Such as a

23:11

kind of long span and and is it

23:13

affects the structure of the music and and

23:15

because it has to be passed down through

23:17

ear so vivid, loads and loads the things

23:19

that happen in our his see that will

23:22

affect how we develop the how the music

23:24

is developed within that culture. and and of

23:26

course you get lots of cross cultural essences

23:28

say the same. He said sample that. Things

23:30

that the blues know came about because we

23:33

tried to combine one scale with another scale

23:35

and then you start have noticed somewhere between

23:37

them. To your study. So differences

23:39

in emotional responses between genders or coaches

23:41

at his as that been sort of

23:43

studied in that's. Actually way currently coming

23:46

out some assess to specifically look at

23:48

some of those cultural differences because it's

23:50

something that just hasn't been to enough.

23:52

We do know for example that with

23:54

major and minor chords that broadly speaking

23:56

most cultures will see the as a

23:58

happy and sad that the world. The

24:00

controversy in reverse and see the other

24:02

way round in terms of particular genres.

24:04

I think what really fascinates me as

24:06

having done this now third isn't I

24:08

dunno. over ten years there is no

24:11

consistency in what people to this essay

24:13

for so more their favorite music. I

24:15

mean it just on. not songs or

24:17

genres that jumped the top. Everyone developed

24:19

the right interest in the range I'll

24:21

run around and love of different types

24:24

of music. Are you seeing it

24:26

change with the generations? Now with you know

24:28

when, when when I grow up there was

24:30

a sort of a common of museum. There

24:32

was limited ways of getting music. They was

24:34

very defined by John Read at my school

24:36

you're either into Met A Little Dolls Easy

24:38

or indie music. It was very narrow and

24:40

whereas now kids growing up where they feel

24:42

like or everything all at once there's no

24:44

historical context as you to take taught me

24:46

to see that with these tic toc hips

24:48

that happened at some leave in a very

24:50

young people are just some the obsessed with

24:52

a some from the eighties have club skills

24:54

Are you turning. This up in your research.

24:56

I think it's still cloudy days to see

24:59

that and I tend to the cat still

25:01

older people because I'm interested in old and

25:03

these com memories. But certainly and lot of

25:05

people now are talking about how this is

25:08

going to systems me instincts is that people

25:10

will still continue to have this number of

25:12

the music they listen to in their teenage

25:15

years. I don't think that's can attains, I

25:17

think he's got back in history need see

25:19

the same kind of thing but what that

25:21

means it looks like is gonna be different.

25:24

it might be much less zone a specific

25:26

and also. You know we will have have

25:28

to take to the key songs that might

25:30

have been in adverts or whatever. so we

25:32

will have had the same thing to some

25:34

extent. certain songs that somehow because they just

25:36

were a phenomenon. What's that that sea shanty

25:38

in a. That oh yeah well a man is alarmed.

25:40

The ah yes gonna be a. Whole. Latest clear that

25:42

a billionaire get into the sixties and still here

25:45

the one a man and just have a reaction

25:47

to. it the at my my my missus

25:49

uses as a lot of i to our

25:51

little baby but you know he he's gonna

25:53

have that was at nasa and and and

25:55

over so football songs i'm i'm forever blowing

25:57

bubbles on my son i'm blackmailing him into

25:59

music back manning into being a West Ham fan. I'm

26:02

also interested in how

26:04

this difference between your casual

26:07

music fan or member of

26:09

the public and the musician. Can you sort

26:11

of see when you're analyzing these through observing

26:14

or through experiments a

26:16

difference in how the musician and

26:18

the non-musician responds to music? Yes,

26:20

we have specifically looked at that a couple

26:23

of times now and what we find for

26:25

example is that there is a bigger reminiscence

26:27

bump in musicians and it tends to be

26:29

a little bit earlier but

26:31

also interestingly musicians are more likely to

26:34

describe music as being important to them

26:36

because of something to do with the

26:38

music so they're less likely to say

26:40

a specific memory. If you push them

26:42

they do have memories but they're much more likely to

26:44

say that they prefer a piece of music because of

26:47

something to do the quality of the sound. So

26:49

there is probably a different way

26:52

that musicians engage with music. I

26:54

don't think they won't have the

26:56

memories but it's more analytical

26:59

typically. And putting you

27:01

on the spot slightly as you're a

27:03

musician yourself, are there bits of music

27:06

that make you emotional that are your

27:08

reminiscence bump? I mean, funnily enough

27:10

yes I mean I have you know

27:12

I'm definitely an 80s girl but

27:14

I also love things like The Who and Pink Floyd

27:16

and interestingly I have music that I

27:18

hated when I was a teenager and I really

27:21

love now and I think this is quite common

27:23

we saw this in a big study we did

27:25

and I absolutely hated

27:27

country music I couldn't bear it and I

27:29

have a very secret love of it now

27:31

because my dad listened to it endlessly and

27:34

it just kind of takes me back to

27:36

him but I would have

27:38

absolutely just been so embarrassed I still am

27:40

a little bit but I would have been so embarrassed

27:42

if I'd been courtless into anything out of 15. So

27:45

that's really interesting that we can you

27:47

know when we're partisan and judgmental and

27:49

snooty as a teenager then gradually as

27:52

we get older we mellow

27:54

a bit why is that? Is it just because of

27:56

aging or is it more complicated? No I think

27:58

it's to do with identity it's that. we

28:00

are in our those teenagers, we are defining

28:02

our identity and we have to define our

28:04

identity as different from our parents and we

28:06

have to define our identity as an in-group.

28:08

These are the people, these are my people,

28:10

this is my tribe and my

28:12

tribe would absolutely never listen to that kind of

28:14

music and they would never wear those kinds of

28:17

clothes. And once we have formed

28:19

that identity and we feel a bit more confident

28:21

in who we are, we're more able to step

28:23

outside of that ring again. We're not conscious that

28:25

we're doing it but you absolutely see it with

28:28

music. So

28:44

music is for life, not just our

28:46

teenage years. Shaping and reflecting

28:49

our emotions from birth to old age,

28:51

helping us learn to communicate as babies

28:54

and also to remember as our power

28:56

of recollection slips away. This is hardly

28:58

surprising as music has been at the

29:00

core of our human story for thousands

29:02

of years, shaping our collective

29:05

identity but also when taste comes

29:07

into it, making us who we

29:09

are as individuals. That's

29:11

all from us today on Why, thank

29:13

you to Professor Catherine Loveday. Thank you

29:15

very much. We'll be back with more

29:18

scientific symphonies, psychological songs and mysterious melodies

29:20

soon. And thank you to everyone who's

29:22

already been spreading the news about this

29:24

show. If you enjoyed this episode, do

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tell your friends and you

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can follow us on social media. Links

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are in the show notes. Likes and

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shares really help to spread the word.

29:35

I've been Luke Turner, our skater. See

29:41

you next time. I

30:00

can improve Woodwork's difficulty. cereal

30:13

hehehe uh

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