0:01

This is exactly right. Time

0:07

is precious and so are our

0:09

pets. So time with our pets

0:11

is extra precious. That's why we

0:13

started Dutch. Dutch provides 24-7 access

0:15

to licensed vets with unlimited virtual

0:17

visits and follow-ups for up to five

0:19

pets. You can message a vet at any

0:22

time and schedule a video visit the

0:24

same day. Our vets can even prescribe

0:26

medication for many ailments and shipping is

0:28

always free. With Dutch you'll get more

0:30

time with your pets and year-round piece

0:32

of mine when it comes to their

0:34

vet care. In 2020,

0:37

In 2020 a group of young

0:40

women found themselves in an AI-fueled

0:42

nightmare. Someone was posting photos. It

0:44

was just me making, well, not

0:46

me, but me with someone else's

0:48

body part. This is Levertown, a

0:51

new podcast from I Heart Podcasts,

0:53

Bloomberg, and kaleidoscope about the rise

0:55

of deep-fate pornography and the battle

0:57

to stop it. Listen to Levert

0:59

Town on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast,

1:02

find it on the I Heart

1:04

Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

1:06

you get your podcasts. 45 years ago

1:08

a Virginia soul band called

1:10

The Edge of Daybreak recorded

1:12

their debut album behind bars.

1:14

Record collectors consider it a

1:16

masterpiece. The band's surviving members

1:18

are long out of prison,

1:20

but they say they have

1:22

some unfinished business. They had a

1:25

daybreak, eyes and love, but supposed to

1:27

be following up by another app.

1:29

Listen to Soul Incarcerated on the

1:32

iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts, or

1:34

wherever you get your podcasts. This

1:37

story contains adult content and language.

1:40

Listener discretion is advised. You

1:49

know, I think it's easy to look back

1:51

on this and go, oh, that was

1:53

a weird request. He beat himself up in

1:56

saying, I should have said no, I

1:58

was too smart for that. I'm

2:04

Kate Winkler Dawson, a non -fiction

2:06

author and journalism professor in Austin,

2:08

Texas. I'm also the co -host

2:10

of the podcast Buried Bones

2:12

on Exactly Right, and throughout my

2:15

career, research for my many

2:17

audio and book projects has taken

2:19

me around the world. On

2:21

Wicked Words, I sit down with

2:23

the people I've met along

2:25

the way. Amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

2:27

and podcasters who have investigated

2:29

and reported on notorious true crime

2:31

cases. This is about the

2:33

choices writers make, both good and

2:35

bad. And it's a deep

2:37

dive into the unpublished details behind

2:40

their stories. For

2:42

years, a predator preyed on gay

2:44

men in Atlanta. He was

2:46

known as the handcuff man. He

2:48

attacked male sex workers, disfigured

2:50

them horribly, and then left them

2:52

for dead. Journalist Halle Lieberman

2:54

wrote a fantastic piece for the

2:56

Atavist magazine called, The Devil

2:58

Went Down to Georgia. Well,

3:02

let's get started and I know

3:04

you want to start with

3:06

Max see somebody you actually know

3:08

So what a unique interviewee

3:10

for you to have what a

3:12

great source Yeah, I actually

3:15

like got to meet him in

3:17

person and he showed me

3:19

so Max grew up in Atlanta

3:21

in the 1970s 60s and

3:23

70s and he came from like a really

3:25

rough home. His dad was not

3:27

really in the picture. He was

3:29

mostly raised by his mom. His

3:31

mom was an alcoholic. And

3:34

she worked at this diner in Atlanta. And

3:36

near the diner, when Max

3:39

became a teenager, there

3:41

a bunch of boys who hung out there. And

3:43

they were selling sex. And

3:46

when I say boys, they were

3:48

like 13 years old, 12 years

3:50

old, really insanely young.

3:52

And they would sit

3:54

on the yellow newspaper

3:56

boxes that were near

3:59

this theater, the Plaza Theater,

4:01

and men would drive by. and

4:03

look at the boys

4:06

and decide if they wanted

4:08

to hire one for

4:10

sex or whatever sex act.

4:13

So Max started doing this, or the other

4:15

boys would actually walk to the back of

4:17

the Plaza Theater, and he showed me this.

4:19

We did this at age 59. He showed

4:21

me what he did at 13 because these

4:24

buildings are still here. He walked to the

4:26

back. That's where the man would have the

4:28

car. would pick him

4:30

up and then they would do the act.

4:32

They would pay the money and then

4:34

he'd be off and Max would have some

4:36

cash. And that was his

4:38

job. And he was also getting

4:40

into like gangs and he was doing all

4:42

this kind of stuff because that was he

4:44

had a really rough home life. They didn't

4:46

have a lot of money. He

4:48

was kind of trying to

4:51

make money trying to live

4:53

in Atlanta. And that was

4:55

how he started doing sex

4:57

work. set the scene for

4:59

that time period separately from

5:01

the view of being gay,

5:03

homosexual, whatever term they would

5:05

have used, and then

5:08

going into sex work, which is, you

5:10

know, another part of this.

5:12

What was it like for

5:14

Max or an adult, a male

5:16

sex worker in this time

5:18

period? I mean, were they constantly

5:20

harassed by police or did

5:22

people intervene to try to help?

5:24

they did not intervene as

5:26

much as they should have. As

5:29

Max said, like this was, you know,

5:31

he's like, we would call it child molestation

5:33

today. And I was like, well, we

5:35

wouldn't we've called it child molestation

5:37

then too. But at

5:39

the time, like for being a sex

5:41

worker, so it was a time

5:43

in and fast forward to when he

5:45

was a little older in the

5:48

1970s, 1980s, time when being gay was

5:50

illegal. Even in the

5:52

early 70s, and it was

5:54

in the DSM as a

5:56

mental disorder, so it was

5:58

a mental disorder, sex work

6:00

was illegal, sex work still

6:02

legal, except in Nevada and

6:04

a few counties in the US. And

6:07

AIDS came to the fore

6:09

starting in the 1980s, and that's

6:11

when Max was really

6:13

working, you know, as a young

6:15

adult. AIDS was a death

6:17

sentence. And many people argue

6:19

that gay men deserved it. And

6:21

the thing was, since being

6:23

gay or having gay sex

6:25

was illegal and sex work was

6:28

illegal, the police didn't really

6:30

distinguish between gay male sex worker and

6:32

just a gay man. And

6:34

a lot of gay men were having sex

6:36

in the same places that the sex workers

6:38

were. So they were harassing both of them.

6:40

So like you just like and you were

6:42

harassed by the police, then you were harassed

6:44

by people in the community. Like every gay

6:46

man who was alive at this time has

6:48

talked about bottles being thrown at them, talking

6:50

about all this stuff. So it was even

6:52

in the gay neighborhoods, it was just a

6:54

culture of harassment. How long

6:56

is Max doing this before he

6:58

becomes a major part of

7:00

your story? So Max is doing

7:02

sex work for about eight

7:04

years as a teenager before like

7:06

teenager and young adult before

7:08

it becomes a part of his

7:10

story because he started at

7:12

age 13. So that was a

7:14

pretty crazy, you know, it's

7:17

crazy that he was so young.

7:19

So is that when he first

7:21

encounters the handcuff man? Max was

7:23

21 when he first encountered the

7:25

handcuff man. Max knew this

7:27

job was dangerous. So

7:29

someone had pulled a gun on him, you

7:31

know, when he was a teenager. A

7:34

female sex worker who was his friend

7:36

had been killed. He said they found

7:38

her head in one dumpster, her body

7:40

in the other, her limbs in the other.

7:43

So like in a horrific way. So

7:45

he was a street savvy kind of

7:47

guy. I mean, he had to be,

7:49

you had to be to literally survive. in

7:51

this time. So it

7:53

wasn't like we had this naive guy who

7:56

just got into sex work. He'd been

7:58

doing it for a long time. He

8:00

had to vet his clients for

8:02

a really good reason. But

8:04

what happened was, so this

8:06

was April 1985, HIV

8:08

is spreading through the gay

8:10

community. People, they're all sorts of

8:12

rumors about how you get it.

8:14

And so people don't know. So gay

8:17

men, people are staying far away from them. So

8:19

there's all that stuff going on. But

8:21

it was April 1985. Max

8:24

was hustling on Ponce de Leon

8:26

Avenue, a popular street in Atlanta,

8:28

and a thin man drove up,

8:30

rolled down his car window. He

8:32

was in a Lincoln town car

8:34

and asked him if he wanted

8:36

to make some money. This was

8:38

not unusual. This was the kind

8:41

of transaction he did all the

8:43

time. This guy looked like a

8:45

professional or not a professional, but

8:47

not intimidating. He wore

8:49

glasses, he had a pressed shirt, he

8:51

seemed like a normal guy. The

8:54

man asked Max to drink some

8:56

alcohol with him and Max said,

8:58

okay, sure, I'll

9:00

do this for a little cash.

9:02

So he's standing there, he's

9:04

drinking alcohol with the man, he

9:06

starts to feel funny. Wasn't

9:09

sure what's going on, had the

9:11

man slipped him something. Max

9:13

collapses to the ground and the

9:15

man pulls him into the

9:17

car. Max's begging don't hurt me

9:19

as this happens. He

9:22

knew something was off, but he was

9:24

completely out of it on, you know,

9:26

the alcohol or whatever was mixed into

9:28

the alcohol. And Max drank a lot

9:30

so he could handle his alcohol. So

9:32

he gets in the car. He

9:34

is stuck with this man

9:36

who's picked him up. The man

9:38

drives him to a wooded

9:40

area. He parks. He drags

9:42

Max into this patch of

9:44

kudzu. And Max is like,

9:47

what the hell is going

9:49

on? You know, this is

9:51

not a normal hookup. They usually would

9:53

just have sex and it would

9:55

be over in 15 minutes, whatever. So

9:57

he's in this remote area. He's

10:00

in this foliage. And

10:02

then he sees the guy who

10:05

picked him up, pour this liquid

10:07

onto his groin and then

10:09

light a match. And as

10:11

he lights a match, It

10:13

illuminates the man's face in

10:15

this ghoulish way that Max

10:18

could never forget. Then the

10:20

man drops the match onto

10:22

Max's crotch and Max catches

10:24

fire. He is in excruciating

10:26

pain and he starts drifting

10:29

in and out of consciousness

10:31

and so much pain on

10:33

fire. He cries for help when

10:35

he has the energy, but he doesn't.

10:37

have a lot of energy obviously

10:39

because he's a bit drugged

10:41

and he's on fire. Around

10:44

9 .30 p .m., a

10:46

man who happened to be a

10:48

nurse was driving home with his

10:50

girlfriend when he spotted a naked figure

10:52

on the side of the road.

10:54

So somehow Max had managed to

10:56

move in somewhere where people could

10:58

see him. The nurse stopped, saw

11:01

Max's condition, rushed home

11:03

to call the police and

11:05

got some blankets to wrap

11:07

Max in and Max thought to

11:09

himself, I guess God had

11:11

sent him. That was how close

11:13

Max was to dying. Where

11:15

in the timeline are we as

11:17

far as you're concerned? What

11:20

you think the timeline is for the

11:22

handcuff man, is this sort of

11:24

at the beginning of when he

11:26

was targeting young men or is

11:28

it the middle or where are

11:30

we? We are in the

11:32

middle of the timeline. He had

11:34

been targeting young men for at least

11:36

nine years because he'd been kicked

11:38

out or 10 because he'd been kicked

11:40

out to Wanda PA literally by

11:42

the sheriff. Looking

11:45

for more privacy in your backyard

11:47

without the hassle of going to

11:49

a nursery? Did you know fast

11:51

growing trees is the biggest online

11:53

nursery in the U .S. with thousands

11:55

of different plants and over 2

11:58

million happy customers? Plus, get support

12:00

from trained plant experts on call

12:02

to help you plan your landscape,

12:04

choose the right plants, and learn

12:06

how to care for them. Big

12:08

yard, small yard, no yard. Fast

12:10

growing trees has over 6 ,000 plants

12:13

for any space. Indoors,

12:15

outdoors, fruit trees, privacy trees,

12:17

you name it. what

12:19

you'll grow where you live. Use

12:21

their plant zone finder tool to

12:23

see exactly what will thrive in

12:25

your area. I got two Japanese

12:27

maples which have just started blooming

12:29

and everything looks great. This spring,

12:31

they have the best deals for

12:33

your yard up to half off

12:36

on select plants and other deals.

12:38

And listeners to our show get

12:40

15 % off their first purchase when

12:42

using the code Wicked at checkout.

12:45

That's an additional 15 %

12:47

off at fastgrowingtrees.com using

12:49

the code Wicked at

12:51

checkout. Fastgrowingtrees.com code

12:53

Wicked. Now's the perfect time to

12:55

plant. Use Wicked to save

12:57

today. Offer is valid for a

12:59

limited time, terms and conditions

13:01

may apply. beam.com/wicked

14:03

and use code wicked

14:05

at checkout. That's shop

14:07

bea-m.com/wicked and use code

14:09

wicked for up to

14:11

40% off. Solve the

14:13

case of your bad

14:15

sleep by trying Beam today.

14:40

listen to Go Boy on the

14:42

iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts,

14:44

or wherever you get your podcast.

14:49

So Max is lucky to be alive

14:51

because a lot of these young men

14:54

that he and boys that he encounters

14:56

don't end up alive. So are you

14:58

thinking that the handcuff man is intending

15:00

that this is going to kill him?

15:02

Absolutely. This is the way that it's

15:04

going to happen. Or what do you

15:06

think the mindset was? So

15:08

it seemed like the mindset was,

15:11

and obviously I have no way of

15:13

knowing, but the mindset was I don't

15:15

care if this person lives or dies.

15:17

I mean, if you're lighting someone on

15:20

fire, leaving them in like somewhere in

15:22

Atlanta, like in the early morning hours, I

15:25

mean, the chances that this person

15:27

are survived. I mean, who knows, like

15:29

50 -50. He didn't value the life

15:31

of the men he was doing

15:33

this to. They were very low on

15:35

the totem pole of society. They

15:38

were people, and this is why

15:40

predators target sex workers because they're

15:42

people they assume that

15:44

society doesn't care about. They assume

15:46

that they won't be missed.

15:48

I've interviewed sex workers, the sex

15:50

worker who used to be

15:52

an LAPD cop. And she said

15:55

they had a nickname for

15:57

crimes, murders involving sex workers. And

15:59

it was NHI, no human

16:01

involved. It's awful. Totally awful.

16:03

And that was in the 80s. And so

16:05

that was around this time. And so if

16:07

you're a criminal, if you're a murderer, you're

16:10

someone violent, you are going to target this

16:12

person who police are going to go, oh,

16:14

their life doesn't matter. So an

16:16

ambulance comes, I'm assuming, to find

16:18

Max, a thank God for that nurse.

16:20

Max was taken to Grady Memorial

16:22

Hospital in Atlanta. His

16:25

burns were so severe that he

16:27

stayed there for six weeks. He had

16:29

to wear a diaper because the

16:31

burns were on his genitals. He wasn't

16:33

sure if his penis would ever

16:35

work again. That's how he was making

16:37

money. And just also like

16:39

your quality of life is terribly burns on

16:41

his thighs. I mean, it

16:43

was excruciatingly painful. During

16:45

this time, the police came to see

16:47

him once they left a business card.

16:50

And meanwhile, I mean, Max is suffering.

16:52

He's not he's not completely there. You

16:54

know, he's recovering. They left this business

16:56

card and said to call if he

16:58

wants to talk. He misplaced the card.

17:00

and never heard from the cops again.

17:02

And that was that. This is specifically

17:04

on the lower part of his body,

17:06

right? Where this liquid was poured. It

17:08

wasn't on his face or anything. It

17:10

was a lower part of his body.

17:12

Wow. Okay. So that says to you,

17:14

what? Just initially, if you were an

17:16

investigator on the scene, the lower part

17:18

of the body, what do you think

17:20

that would indicate to someone? It

17:22

was, it was so like,

17:24

seem targeted to gay man's

17:26

sexuality, like pinpointed, like war. pouring

17:29

this liquid on men's genitals, I'm preventing

17:31

them from ever expressing their sexuality. To

17:33

me, that's what it... reminded me of

17:35

so did max say that when he

17:37

was first encountering this man I know

17:39

he was excited about the 40 or

17:42

50 bucks and the alcohol and everything

17:44

did he have like a gut feeling

17:46

that he ignored I read about that

17:48

a lot like that that people who

17:50

survive assaults sometimes they're like I had

17:52

a gut feeling but I just ignored

17:54

it did he talk about that to

17:56

you at all he didn't say that

17:58

he had a gut feeling. But he

18:01

said that the guy was a little

18:03

weird, so I guess that was his

18:05

version of gut feeling. You

18:07

know, I think it's easy to look

18:09

back on this and go, oh, that

18:11

was a weird request, because that was

18:13

not a normal request for him. And,

18:15

you know, what he beat himself up,

18:17

Max, like in saying, I should have said

18:19

no, I was too smart for that. And

18:21

that's the whole like victims blaming themselves

18:23

thing. But I think maybe that

18:25

was his gut feeling like he thought

18:28

this was a little too good to

18:30

be true. This was a weird

18:32

request, but I need the money. You

18:34

know, I mean, it's really hard when

18:36

you're doing survival sex, when you're

18:38

doing this work and you need the

18:40

money so much, you are going to

18:42

do things that you wouldn't otherwise

18:44

do because you're motivated by your basic

18:46

needs. And so I think that was

18:48

his gut feeling was this is

18:50

a weird request. This guy's a

18:52

little weird, but I need the money.

18:54

And yeah. Okay. So Max is in the

18:56

hospital recovering and then the police are

18:58

virtually ignoring him. They're kind of doing the

19:00

bare minimum, which is if you want

19:02

to talk about this, we'll talk to you,

19:04

but we're not going to pursue you.

19:06

Don't call us. We'll call you kind of

19:08

deal after a while. Max, what does

19:10

he do after he's recovered and he can

19:12

walk and move around and everything? Does

19:14

he get out of sex work or does

19:17

he return? Yeah, he returns to sex

19:19

work. He doesn't really have any, you know,

19:21

a lot of skills. And

19:23

so that's what he does. But he also

19:25

went throughout the city of Atlanta looking for

19:27

the handcuff man. He was like, I'm going

19:29

to get this guy who got me. He

19:31

never found him, but he was like, so

19:34

mad. Obviously. So that was the

19:36

thing, but he does return to

19:38

hustling. Wow. In the article, you

19:40

say scores and all, which is

19:42

incredible. Yeah. But he told me,

19:44

and this was really sad. You

19:46

know, when I met him, he's

19:48

like, every time I shower, I

19:50

see the scars and I'm reminded

19:52

of the attack. Like he can

19:54

never get away from that. Like

19:56

because it's, it's a part of

19:58

him. And that is, is really

20:00

messed up. Does he have a

20:02

positive life moving forward after this

20:04

event? I mean, I'm assuming he

20:06

eventually gets out of sex work.

20:08

He does. He eventually

20:10

gets out of sex work. And

20:12

so when I met him, he

20:14

was with his boyfriend who he'd

20:16

been with for like 20 years,

20:18

25 years. He got in a

20:21

good relationship with a guy who

20:23

loves him. And so

20:25

that is actually a happy

20:27

ending in that sense. This

20:29

literally scarred him and

20:32

emotionally scarred him, but

20:34

yeah, he did find

20:36

love, so that was nice. Beam

21:27

is giving my listeners their best

21:29

offer yet of up to 40%

21:32

off. Try their best-selling dream powder

21:34

and get up to 40% off

21:36

for a limited time. Go to

21:38

shopbeam.com/ beam.com/wicked and use code wicked

21:40

at checkout. That's shop

21:42

bea-m.com/wicked and use code

21:44

wicked for up to

21:46

40% off. Solve the

21:49

case of your bad

21:51

sleep by trying wicked and use code wicked at checkout. Beam today.

21:52

To have a murderer as gruesome as

21:55

Jade Beasley doesn't happen very often

21:57

down here. In Marion, Illinois,

21:59

an 11 -year -old girl brutally

22:01

stabbed to death, her father's longtime

22:03

live -in girlfriend maintaining innocence but

22:05

charged with her murder. I

22:07

am confident that Julie Begley is

22:09

guilty. They've never found a

22:11

weapon, never made sense, still doesn't make sense.

22:13

She found out she was pregnant in

22:15

jail. The person who did it is still

22:17

out there. Listen to

22:20

Murder on Songbird Road on the

22:22

iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or

22:24

wherever you get your podcasts. Have

22:26

you ever wondered if your pet is lying

22:28

to you? Why is my cat not here? And

22:30

I go in and she's eating my lunch?

22:32

Or if hypnotism is real? You will use the

22:35

suggestion in order to enhance your cognitive control.

22:37

But what's inside a black hole? Black holes could

22:39

be a consequence of the way that we

22:41

understand the universe. Well, we have answers for you

22:43

in the new iHeart original podcast, Sign

22:45

Stuff. Join me, or hitch him, as

22:47

we answer questions about animals, space, our

22:49

brains, and our bodies. So give yourself

22:51

permission to be a science geek and

22:54

listen to Sign Stuff on the iHeart...

23:01

To transition to, you know, another victim

23:03

of the handcuff man, let me

23:05

ask, did Max say any of his

23:08

friends said, oh, I've seen that

23:10

guy before, I didn't get in the

23:12

car with him? Or was this

23:14

just like this ghost that pops up

23:16

and nobody else had seen him

23:18

except Max in that part of the

23:20

community? So within the gay community

23:22

and within gay bars at the time,

23:25

there were all these rumors that

23:27

there was this guy called the handcuff

23:29

man, because there were a bunch

23:31

of unusual attacks were happening. So

23:33

at this time, between 1984

23:36

and 1986, which is the

23:38

period Max was attacked in

23:40

85, gay men were

23:42

being attacked and murdered in

23:44

Atlanta, incidents of gay bashing.

23:46

often went unsolved if they

23:48

were investigated at all. And

23:50

at least 18 gay men

23:52

died at the hand of

23:55

unidentified perpetrators. There

23:57

was this culture of fear. It

23:59

was so bad in the investigations,

24:01

the police were so bad at

24:03

not investigating these things because they

24:05

didn't care or whatever the reason

24:07

was or homophobia that the Atlanta

24:09

Gay Center actually set up training

24:11

for police officers and said, please,

24:13

like, give a shit about our

24:15

community. But during this time, there

24:17

were these attacks that were even

24:19

unusual for the time. They were

24:21

around Midtown, which is where Max

24:23

applied his trade. there were

24:25

all these rumors that there was

24:28

a serial predator who approached gay

24:30

men, offered to pay them to

24:32

drink, then beat or burn them

24:34

and left them for dead. And

24:36

sometimes he handcuffed them to poles,

24:38

which is where the nickname handcuff

24:40

man came from. So there were

24:42

rumors, but the rumors, you

24:44

know, people didn't know, is this a

24:47

boogeyman? Like, is this a real guy?

24:49

Are these just rumors? You know,

24:51

they're always like, no one knows who

24:53

this guy is. So maybe... It's not

24:55

real. Maybe people are exaggerating like no

24:57

one knew what it was this

24:59

weird like nebulous like specter like hanging

25:01

over the gay community And this is

25:03

not limited to just male sex workers,

25:05

right? I mean we are talking

25:07

about kind of the whole gay community

25:10

feeling vulnerable particularly the male gay community

25:12

feeling really vulnerable during this time period

25:14

and and feeling like nobody is

25:16

on their side, right? Exactly. It wasn't

25:18

just sex workers. And plus sex workers

25:20

and gay men were hanging out at

25:22

the same clubs. They were

25:24

just like certain areas for the hustlers and

25:26

certain areas for the non -hustlers. So yeah,

25:28

no, it was a whole community was

25:30

feeling like if I get beaten up or

25:32

anything, the cops won't care. And a

25:35

lot of times it was the cops doing

25:37

the abuse too, or the cops saying,

25:39

hey, give me a blow job. and I

25:41

want a recipe for being gay. I

25:43

mean, these are all significant cases, but let's

25:45

talk about kind of the next step

25:47

for you is that Michael Jordan. Yes. Tell

25:49

me before we talk about his interaction

25:51

or his, you know, becoming the victim of

25:53

that handcuff man, tell me about what

25:55

you know about Michael before all this happens.

25:57

Yeah. So Michael, I know less

25:59

Michael than I did about Max. I'd

26:01

never met him. And he had the

26:03

name, you know, his name was the

26:06

name of a famous basketball player. So

26:08

he's harder to track down. So he

26:10

was visiting from Florida, 21 years old,

26:12

around the same age as Max, coming

26:14

on vacation and ended up in a

26:16

neighborhood called Midtown, which is the neighborhood

26:18

you would be if you were gay

26:20

man visiting from Florida. The issue with,

26:22

and this is 1991, this is six

26:24

years after Max. After Max gets attacked

26:26

by this time in the 90s, the

26:28

gay community really, really knows about this

26:31

handcuff man. I mean, it's like one

26:33

of the first things, especially if you're

26:35

a hustler, there's the handcuff man. You

26:37

got to watch out for this guy.

26:39

Here's his MO. He's going to drive

26:41

up in a car. He wears glasses.

26:43

He's in his 40s. He's going to

26:45

ask you to drink something. And so

26:47

people were like had the red flag.

26:50

So at this time, handcuff man was trying

26:52

to find a lot of victims, but

26:54

finding people were out of town was good

26:56

for him because they didn't have this

26:58

knowledge. And this is before the internet, you

27:00

wouldn't get this warning anywhere. So

27:03

you get someone who doesn't

27:05

know what's going on. So

27:07

the first day in the city, the

27:10

evening of May 12th, Jordan

27:12

is milling around Midtown when

27:14

he's approached by a man

27:16

in a white Lincoln town

27:18

car. similar to what happened

27:20

with Schrader. He said, do

27:22

you want to make some money? And

27:24

Jordan responded, well, what do

27:26

I have to do? The man

27:28

said, okay, I'm conducting a

27:31

study and I'm going to pay

27:33

you $50 to drink vodka. Very

27:35

similar to the Schrader thing.

27:38

But in this case, He said, I'm

27:40

going to watch as you become more

27:42

and more inebriated, and I'll take notes. So

27:45

Jordan said, OK, good

27:47

way to make some money. I'd agreed to

27:49

meet the man at the corner of Fifth and

27:51

Juniper streets. Jordan was at

27:53

the side of the street. Man

27:55

arrived, motioned for him to get in

27:57

his car, handed him a

28:00

Fifth vodka, and told him

28:02

to drink it fast. Jordan

28:04

downs about half his bottle. The man

28:06

leaves the car says, okay, I'm gonna

28:08

go get a mixer. When he came

28:10

back, the man asked Jordan to get

28:12

hard. Said he wanted to see a

28:14

masturbate. Michael's like, uh, you

28:16

know, it's gonna be hard

28:18

to do given that, like, you

28:20

gave me all this alcohol,

28:22

I'm too drunk. He drank more

28:24

and blacked out. That's the

28:27

last Michael remembers of this encounter.

28:29

Then what happens is a

28:31

hotel clerk. finds someone curled

28:33

up in the fetal position on

28:35

the ground of the parking lot behind

28:37

the Ponce de Leon hotel. And

28:39

this is near where Max was working.

28:42

The person on the ground was Michael. He

28:45

was naked. His

28:47

genitals had been wrapped in a

28:49

rubber band. He had blood in his

28:51

mouth and nose. The hotel clerk

28:53

calls 911. The clerk thought

28:55

this man was like 30 to 35

28:57

because he was so burned and then

28:59

once He got cleaned up. He's like,

29:01

oh my god, this is just a

29:03

kid and a 21 year old. Michael's

29:05

rushing in and builds the hospital and

29:07

like Max, he had to remain there

29:09

for a month. But what was crazy

29:11

or similar to Max is police were

29:13

slow to respond to the scene. They

29:16

didn't seem to care again. And

29:18

this is six years later and they

29:20

don't care. And then

29:22

the hotel clerk reached out

29:24

to a gay rights advocate

29:26

working with Georgia's chapter of

29:28

the ACLU, and her name

29:31

is Kathy Woolard. And she called up

29:33

the police and said, what are you

29:35

doing? And she got nothing but run

29:37

around, as she said. So

29:39

they had designated the crime

29:41

as a bias crime because

29:43

Michael was gay. But

29:45

Kathy thought that that was also the

29:47

reason they weren't taking the crime

29:49

seriously, because he was labeled gay. So

29:51

I mean, it was a horrific,

29:54

horrific crime. So, okay, within this six

29:56

year period, there's two that are

29:58

very clearly connected that it seems very

30:00

obvious that the same man committed

30:02

both of these crimes. Absolutely. Although there

30:04

are so many other attacks at

30:06

this time that are happening. But these

30:08

are the ones that actually get

30:11

traction, like are reported to the police

30:13

and people know about them. But

30:15

there are other attacks, including in Florida

30:17

at this time that are similar.

30:19

But this is before police are really

30:21

communicating well. So you could have

30:23

attacks, you could be a criminal doing

30:25

things in different states, and you

30:28

could send a teletype saying, I have

30:30

an unusual crime, like they told

30:32

me about this in Florida, like that

30:34

you could do this. But

30:36

unless you did that and thought

30:38

that this was a predator in multiple

30:40

states, you could get away from

30:42

with going from state to state. I

30:44

hopefully things have changed now, I

30:46

don't know. Well, yeah, that's interesting. And

30:48

I know that jurisdictional issues pop

30:50

up and not in this case necessarily,

30:52

but what about the media? I

30:54

mean, this seems like a story.

30:56

The media would just be crazy

30:58

about yellow journalism kind of thing.

31:00

You would think so, but the

31:03

media. So with Michael Jordan's attack,

31:05

the media starts covering this a

31:07

little more. You have basically the

31:09

media. who's covering this attack in

31:11

the first like or covering the

31:13

tax in the first 10 years

31:15

is gay media. Gay media are

31:17

saying there is this predator in

31:19

our community and we had robust

31:21

gay media here at ETC or

31:23

etc magazine like we had that

31:25

and they were covering they were

31:27

saying they're all these attacks. Mainstream

31:30

media Atlanta Journal Constitution or

31:32

was Atlanta Journal then. not

31:34

covering it, for the most

31:36

part, except for in 1984,

31:38

the year before Max's attack,

31:40

Susan Feludi, the famous

31:42

feminist writer who was working for

31:44

the Atlanta Journal at the time,

31:46

she covered a story on hustlers,

31:48

and she mentioned that there was

31:50

this character called the handcuff man.

31:52

So it did get that press,

31:54

but it wasn't until the Michael

31:56

Jordan attack, news of that reached

31:58

a man called Richard Greer. And

32:00

he was a beat cop working

32:02

the night shift, 5 p .m.

32:04

to 1 a .m. at the Atlanta

32:06

Journal. And he had hung around

32:08

cops and other reporters for long

32:10

enough that he was like, oh,

32:12

this sounds like the handcuff man.

32:14

I've heard these rumors. And again,

32:16

Richard did not know if that

32:18

was a real guy or whatever.

32:20

But he's like, oh, wow, this

32:22

actually sounds like this. So he'd

32:24

heard an officer mention them. The

32:27

cops as well thought the handcuff

32:29

man was a myth. But

32:31

Richard thought, wait. This is actually,

32:33

you know, here we have evidence that

32:35

this may not be a myth. So

32:38

Richard actually and Richard's brother

32:40

was gay. And so Richard

32:42

was more sympathetic to the gay

32:45

community than I think other. reporters

32:48

and B cops because he had

32:50

a family member who was and he

32:52

went to the gay bars and

32:54

He drove down there and he gave

32:56

his card instead of you if

32:58

you've heard anything like this I'm looking

33:00

for the handcuff man. I'm really

33:02

digging into this story and he was

33:04

the first Reporter to say I'm

33:06

gonna dig into this and he would

33:08

get phone calls where people would

33:11

be like I saw him he's here

33:13

come down and so Richard would

33:15

drive down and he'd be gone but

33:17

Richard did not Let up like

33:19

he then was given a name of

33:21

who this guy was and That

33:23

became a huge debate in the newsroom.

33:25

So he started collecting he connected

33:27

with a cop who worked at the

33:29

gay bars JD Kirkland and This

33:31

guy's like, yeah, I know Who is

33:33

doing this? There's the guy who's

33:36

been banned from the gallows one of

33:38

the gay bars They have a

33:40

picture in there, you know, it seemed

33:42

like everyone if you really dug

33:44

deep people knew that there was

33:46

a guy who was possibly doing this,

33:48

but they didn't have enough evidence. It was

33:50

really weird. Okay. So Kirkland, who is,

33:52

he's doing, is he the one who does

33:54

security? the one who's doing security. Okay.

33:57

And what's the name of the place where

33:59

he's doing security? You just said it,

34:01

I think. The gallus. The gallus. Okay. So

34:03

from what I remember from your piece,

34:05

he's told, you know, we have this, I

34:07

don't know how big it is, but

34:09

it sounds like we have this file of

34:11

people who we aren't letting back in

34:14

here because they've caused problems for skipping out

34:16

on the bill or being disruptive or

34:18

whatever it is, keeping an eye out. So

34:20

at some point, does he encounter

34:23

the handcuff man? Yeah. So

34:25

one of the owners of the

34:27

bar, the gala, said Kirkland was

34:29

a combo of Dirty Harry and

34:31

the sheriff from Gunsmoke. And

34:33

Kirkland was not gay, but he

34:35

was, you know, sympathetic and empathetic

34:37

to gay men. So

34:39

patrons were willing to talk to

34:41

Kirkland. Gay men were willing to

34:44

talk to him. They told him

34:46

what the handcuff man looked like. So

34:49

Kirkland was, was scoping around

34:51

like he had, you know, his

34:53

radar off for someone who

34:55

looked like a man in his

34:57

mid 40s, brown hair, glasses, bow.

35:00

five, 10, very skinny,

35:02

like 130 pounds. So

35:05

on November 4th, 1983, a

35:07

man comes into the gallus who

35:10

looks like what they're describing to him.

35:12

So Kirkland wrote a trespass notice.

35:15

He takes a Polaroid of

35:17

this man and he puts it

35:19

in the barred book where

35:21

they eject the patrons who, yeah,

35:23

are being rowdy like you

35:25

mentioned or haven't paid their bill

35:27

and Kirkland kicks them out. And

35:30

handcuff man is kicked out for

35:32

good. They say, you're completely banned,

35:34

unlike the other people. He never

35:36

come back. And Kirkland

35:38

says after taking his picture, what's

35:40

your name? The

35:42

man says his name is

35:45

Robert Lee Bennett Jr. I'm

35:47

an attorney, he added, and I'm

35:49

going to sue you. What was

35:51

his mindset by doing all of that?

35:53

Was it to try to get this guy's

35:55

name, or was it to try to

35:57

just get him out of this bar so

36:00

that people know he's dangerous, or what

36:02

was it? I don't know, because he had

36:04

died, so I interviewed his daughter, and

36:06

his daughter was a little kid at the

36:08

time, and she said, you know, it

36:10

was one of the few cases he talked

36:12

about, but she didn't hear a lot.

36:14

But I think that his mindset was, A,

36:17

get him out of the bar. They didn't

36:19

have evidence. to show this

36:21

was the guy committing the crimes.

36:23

Or even they didn't have this

36:25

as before, Max's incident. I don't

36:27

know if they had investigated any

36:29

incidents like this. So it was

36:31

all rumor, myth, but they knew

36:33

enough, Kirkland knew enough and had

36:35

heard enough from the patrons to be

36:37

like, this guy shouldn't be here. He's causing

36:40

so much trouble. He's scaring people that

36:42

he shouldn't be here. They just

36:44

didn't have enough evidence to time. There

36:46

were a lot of rumors, but didn't

36:48

know how dangerous. this man could be.

36:50

So tell me what ends up happening

36:52

now we have a I mean I

36:54

don't think it's going to be a

36:56

spoiler alert to say this is our

36:58

guy this is the guy this is

37:00

the handcuff guy and you know he

37:02

makes two big statements one that his

37:04

name is Robert Bennett Jr. and the

37:06

other is that he's an attorney. What

37:09

happens next? Does Kirkland go to

37:11

his superiors in Atlanta at the police

37:13

or what does he do? That

37:16

I don't know because there weren't records.

37:18

I don't know if he went

37:20

there, but he kept working at the

37:22

gallows. So I mean, he knew

37:24

he'd gotten handcuff man Robert Lee Bennett

37:26

Jr. who he suspected was the

37:29

handcuff man out of this bar. What

37:31

seemed to happen was

37:33

in action. And

37:35

I don't know how much he

37:37

ended up doing. At one point,

37:39

Don Honeywell, the owner of the

37:41

gallus, the police, Kirkland hired him

37:43

to work for the police to

37:45

try to start looking. And this

37:47

did not make it into my

37:49

story, but to start looking for

37:51

the handcuff man. And around this

37:53

time, a bunch of children were

37:55

being murdered in Atlanta. And

37:57

they were all on the hunt

38:00

for the Atlanta child murder. And

38:02

this is the other thing police

38:04

did they thought this Atlanta child

38:06

murder was a gay man they

38:08

began scoping out like gay bars

38:10

and things like that a handcuff

38:13

man Robert Lee Bennett or Actually,

38:15

it was Robert Lee Bennett Jr.

38:17

Who was on their radar? And

38:19

he was taken in for questioning.

38:21

He was a suspect for a

38:23

while, and then they dismissed him.

38:25

So this guy was on their

38:27

radar. That was the craziest thing.

38:29

He'd been arrested for kidnapping a

38:31

police officer in the 1970s. So

38:33

this man, whose name they found,

38:35

was not just some unknown man.

38:38

I don't know what investigation they

38:40

had done because a year before

38:42

they found this same man had

38:44

been arrested in connection with murder.

38:46

So it was a lot. Yeah,

38:49

absolutely. So when

38:51

are they finally making that

38:53

connection between Robert Bennett Jr. and

38:55

the handcuff man and, you

38:57

know, these horrible mutilations that are

38:59

happening to these men in

39:01

Atlanta? And it sounds like Florida

39:04

too. Yeah. So what

39:06

happened was really the media

39:08

pushing this. So two weeks,

39:10

so this assault on Michael

39:12

happens. The police start

39:14

investigating more. Richard, the

39:17

journalist starts investigating more. He

39:19

publishes an article in the

39:22

Atlanta Journal saying, gay prostitutes in

39:24

fear of sadists. He doesn't

39:26

name the handcuff man, even though

39:28

he has the name. Because

39:30

of Kirkland, right? Not really.

39:32

Actually, it wasn't because of Kirkland.

39:35

It was because they were

39:37

worried the paper was worried about

39:39

being sued. Basically, Richard knew

39:41

or thought Robert was the guy.

39:44

But if they falsely published this

39:46

allegation, if it wasn't true,

39:48

A, the guy you're charging

39:50

is a lawyer. So he's already

39:52

threatened the lawsuit. You know, if

39:54

they got it wrong. they could

39:56

be in trouble, so didn't name

39:58

it. He wrote a few articles

40:01

tying Bennett, you know, Richard did

40:03

some amazing digging, found out that Robert

40:05

Lee Bennett Jr. had been a

40:07

suspect in the line of child murders.

40:09

He published multiple articles and the

40:11

paper kept saying, do not name him,

40:13

do not name him. And finally,

40:16

Richard was like, I feel like there's

40:18

gonna be another attack coming. We

40:20

have to name him. We have to

40:22

get this man off the streets.

40:24

And so there's a back and forth

40:26

in the newsroom, and finally the

40:28

newsroom agreed to let him name him.

40:31

And that, and this was

40:34

May 31st, Richard's reporting said

40:36

Michael had identified Robert Lee

40:38

Bennett Jr. as the last

40:40

person he saw before losing

40:42

consciousness during his attack. The

40:45

shocking part about this story

40:47

was that Richard found out

40:49

that police still hadn't spoken

40:51

to Robert Lee Bennett Jr.

40:54

at all. It's like, what? Like,

40:57

you know you have this brutal

40:59

attack. This guy's been on your radar.

41:01

This guy's been a suspect in

41:03

the land of child murders. You're not

41:05

speaking to him? Like, it was

41:07

infuriating. Mm -hmm at what point do

41:09

we move towards this being something that's

41:11

chargeable that you know the police

41:14

are finally saying okay Well, we obviously

41:16

I would think it would have

41:18

been with the media especially with newspaper

41:20

the newspaper in Atlanta But I

41:22

mean does it take more time? Well

41:24

that sped things up a bit

41:26

but it does take more time and

41:29

it also takes involvement of a

41:31

Florida case so A few

41:33

months before Richard names

41:35

Robert Lee Bennett Jr., there's

41:37

a man in Florida

41:39

who meets Robert Lee Bennett

41:41

outside the Salvation Army.

41:44

This guy is a Dallas

41:46

-like guy, has children, same

41:48

sort of MO, gets picked up, says,

41:50

hey, want to drink something? He

41:53

gets in the car. He

41:55

drinks the thing he the next thing

41:57

he knows who wakes up and he's

41:59

on fire in the mangroves The police

42:01

find this guy Because there's a report

42:03

that there's a fire in the mangroves.

42:05

Well, and this is in the Tampa,

42:07

Florida area Well, they come over as

42:09

a human body on fire. That is

42:11

not what they were expecting The the

42:13

burns were so bad that both his

42:15

legs had to be amputated. Oh Doctors

42:17

thought this guy is not gonna live

42:19

overnight. So they're trying to figure out

42:21

who did this to who did this

42:24

to you? The man, his name was

42:26

Gary Clapp, he's going in and out

42:28

of consciousness, doesn't know, and they're like,

42:30

he's going to die. He won't know.

42:32

He manages to survive. And some of

42:34

the prosecutors told me who I interviewed

42:36

were like, we think the high alcohol

42:38

content helped him survive for some reason.

42:40

He had like this ridiculously high alcohol

42:42

content in his body. He

42:44

had fourth degree burns on nearly half

42:46

his body. The detectives interview

42:48

him, and he, search recovering, he

42:50

said that the man who attacked

42:53

him drove a Lincoln town car. He

42:56

described all these people, you

42:58

know, he's 40, 45 years old.

43:01

He describes Robert Lee Bennett,

43:03

Jr. The investigator in

43:05

Atlanta, he sees a teletype.

43:07

about the handcuff man

43:09

and about these attacks happening

43:11

in Atlanta. And he calls

43:14

in Atlanta and says, we

43:16

got the same thing in

43:18

Florida. And they start

43:20

connecting dots. And

43:22

they, the Florida police are the

43:24

first ones to issue a warrant.

43:27

So we have the Michael Jordan

43:29

attack happening in May, but it

43:31

wasn't, there wasn't a warrant, even

43:33

though it was connected with Robert

43:35

Lee Madden. The first warrant was

43:37

happening in June in Tampa. Finally,

43:41

at that time, Atlanta police

43:43

finally bring Robert Lee Bennett Jr.

43:45

in for questioning in Atlanta.

43:47

He's taken into custody for

43:50

the Tampa warrant. So that's

43:52

when things start happening. You have

43:54

to ask, you have someone

43:56

who loses their legs and

43:58

another person who's severely burned. And

44:00

that's when things start to

44:02

shift. What has Bennett say

44:04

about this? So he's brought in

44:06

and does he say, I have no

44:08

idea what you're talking about? Yes.

44:10

So he keeps maintaining his innocence and

44:13

he is, you know, full of

44:15

himself and he is kind of, you

44:17

know, an asshole and obviously, but

44:19

he is kind of like pretentious and

44:21

like, it's strange. So he said,

44:23

I'm here to tell the Atlanta police,

44:25

and this is on video too,

44:27

in the city of Atlanta, I am

44:29

not the handcuff man. He maintains

44:31

his innocence and he complains about the

44:33

jail because he's like, oh, I'm

44:35

a lawyer. He's like, oh, I wasn't

44:37

served breakfast, you know, all this

44:39

stuff. It's like, what? You weren't served

44:41

breakfast? Why do you care, you

44:43

know? So anyway, he, yeah, he claims

44:45

he has nothing to do with

44:47

it. What do we know about him

44:49

as a person we know he's

44:51

an attorney. What else do we know?

44:54

So Bennett was adopted. He came

44:56

from this wealthy family in Tawanda, PA,

44:58

this small town. And his

45:00

dad was owner of a bank there.

45:02

His mom was a homemaker and socialite.

45:04

But if you go, I went to

45:06

Tuanda for the story. You

45:08

go, the Bennett's names are still on

45:10

the historical society. The Bennett

45:12

mansion has like a little plaque.

45:14

Like they were the Kennedys of Tuanda.

45:16

Every single thing they did, was

45:18

put in the newspapers like you look

45:21

at all the old records like

45:23

oh you know uh mrs. Bennett like

45:25

anabelle Bennett like went on a

45:27

trip to africa okay we're gonna put

45:29

that in the paper all this

45:31

stuff and he was like the prodigal

45:33

son he was adopted at 22

45:36

months i don't know if he ever

45:38

knew his birth parents i don't

45:40

think he did um but he was

45:42

super wealthy he grew up in

45:44

a victorian mansion that his mom nicknamed

45:46

nirvana It had

45:48

Tiffany Sterling Silver. It

45:51

had pianos. He

45:53

lived the life. And

45:55

everyone, I talked to his best friend

45:57

at the time, this woman who was

45:59

also his girlfriend a little bit. But

46:02

she said everyone would come over to

46:04

his house. Most of his friends were the

46:06

girls. Everyone sort of knew he was

46:09

a feminine. They didn't call it gay then.

46:11

He didn't come out. And he

46:13

was like popular. He was in the

46:15

Glee Club. He liked to cross stitch.

46:17

He was in the student newspaper. The

46:19

worst thing his best friend told me

46:21

that he ever did when they were

46:23

growing up and they were very tight,

46:25

very close. They went to prom together,

46:28

all this stuff was throw pumpkin off

46:30

a bridge. So that was

46:32

the worst thing. So it wasn't like, you know, there's

46:34

some stories of people who, and they're like, they

46:36

were torturing animals. He was not that person torturing animals.

46:39

He was a popular kid.

46:41

He didn't get bullied. He

46:43

didn't, you know, he wasn't reclusive.

46:46

He was involved in the community, in

46:48

the school community. He ends up

46:50

getting married to a woman, right?

46:52

And then he says, well, I'm impotent.

46:54

And she says, okay. And, you

46:56

know, life goes on. Yeah. So he

46:58

moves to, so after in Tijuana,

47:00

he ends up getting a law degree

47:02

from Emory, moving back to Tijuana

47:04

to work with his dad. and

47:06

then getting in trouble with

47:09

the police when he's in an

47:11

incident with a man, a

47:13

sexual incident, then he gets the

47:15

police say, hey, Robert

47:17

Lee Bennett senior, the father, get your

47:19

son out of here. because he

47:21

was also, they knew he was

47:23

sending letters to people that said, for

47:25

a gay old time, come with

47:27

me to Atlanta. There

47:29

were rumors he was molesting young

47:32

boys for money, like poor

47:34

boys. And the whole, it

47:36

was a very tight -knit small community. All

47:38

this stuff was hurt, but because he was

47:40

so privileged and his family was so privileged,

47:42

the police, and that's a big part of

47:44

the story that's disturbing the police. Instead of

47:46

saying, they could have stopped it then. They

47:48

could have said, oh, you're molesting children. Let's

47:51

put you in jail. But

47:53

instead, he was this wonderful, or his

47:55

parents were really wonderful members of

47:57

the community. So they said, just go

47:59

to Atlanta. He goes there, works

48:01

for a law firm, meets this woman,

48:03

and they get married. She's 34.

48:05

He's 29. And like you said, he

48:08

says, I'm embitian. She says, that's fine.

48:10

Sandra was her name. And

48:12

he parades around. He finally

48:14

gets this heterosexual life

48:17

that gives him respect. But

48:19

he ends up quitting his job. Well, he

48:21

then moves from law firm to working in

48:24

a jewelry store, then quits his job and

48:26

hangs around in a robe all day. Well,

48:28

Sandra's like, what the hell? Like, this isn't

48:30

good. Yeah. And so

48:32

the marriage does not go well.

48:34

Wow, okay. So when

48:36

do you think he makes this turn?

48:38

I mean, there are accusations of

48:40

molestation that, you know, and he has

48:43

other things that seem to be

48:45

ramping up towards really major things. At

48:47

what point do you think that

48:49

things really changed for him and

48:51

turns him into this monster who

48:54

does these terrible things to these

48:56

men? Yeah, I mean, I

48:58

do think it's self loathing and

49:00

I do think it's really, really sad

49:02

in a way. I mean, he

49:04

did horrible things, but I don't think

49:06

he felt comfortable being gay. He

49:08

never fully came out. He barely admitted

49:10

it at one point. I think

49:12

the turn happened. It was starting in

49:14

the 70s in Tuanda, but I

49:16

think when he moved to Atlanta and

49:18

got out of a community where

49:20

everyone knew him, where it was oppressive,

49:22

where he couldn't be himself, he

49:24

moved to this other community and started

49:26

a double life. But there was

49:28

a big enough gay community in Atlanta,

49:30

like he thought he could be

49:32

anonymous, but it was like, it was

49:34

like the Jekyll Hyde thing. Like

49:36

he had this side of him that

49:38

he wanted to get rid of,

49:40

that he wanted to kill the gay

49:42

side of him. He did everything

49:44

he could to fight against this. He

49:47

got married. He, you know, went

49:49

to law school. He did everything he

49:51

was supposed to do, but he

49:53

couldn't get away. So that's when I

49:55

think like in the early 80s

49:57

in Atlanta, that's when he turned. And

49:59

he did have a boyfriend. That

50:02

boyfriend ended up dead. Or it was a

50:04

rumored boyfriend. And he was a suspect in

50:06

that. And that was in 82 when he

50:08

was married to Sandra. And that's when she

50:10

left him. She said she saw him. She's

50:12

getting off the bus stop from work and

50:14

she saw her husband getting arrested. And

50:17

he said, like, I didn't do it

50:19

or I'll explain or whatever. And she

50:21

found out it was for murder. And

50:23

there was this whole court case, like

50:25

his divorce case. you know,

50:27

she said, my husband's a violent homosexual. So

50:30

she had, which is unbelievable to

50:32

say in the eight or at any

50:34

time, but especially at this time.

50:36

And then there were detectives who testified

50:38

and were like, oh, we were

50:40

interviewing hustlers. And they said he's scary

50:42

and violent and does all this

50:44

stuff. And so like the police had

50:46

been doing an investigation that this

50:48

is when I think he turned, but

50:50

this was what was frustrating. It

50:52

was like, Okay, we know he's doing

50:54

this. The police knows and they're

50:56

doing nothing. And he continued. And so

50:58

for him, I think setting people

51:00

on fire and setting gay men on

51:02

fire, it was kind of like,

51:05

like we had murders here at massage

51:07

parlors of sex workers at massage

51:09

parlors. And the man doing them was

51:11

saying he was trying to destroy

51:13

temptation. I feel like there's a similarity

51:15

between Robert Lee Bennett, where he

51:17

was like, this is in me. I

51:19

can't destroy it, so I will

51:21

destroy the people that, you know, represent

51:23

that. And that is, like, so

51:25

disturbing. But that was his MO, and

51:27

it never, I mean, there's no evidence he had

51:30

sex with these people. There's no evidence of anything

51:32

like that. Maybe he did. And,

51:34

you know, it was this compulsion. It

51:36

was like every single day he was

51:38

out there trying to contact people, trying

51:40

to assault people. It was really, and

51:42

I think, yeah, it was something psychological

51:45

like that. So what does he put

51:47

on trial for? He's charged, ultimately, and

51:49

it's for the attack on him. So

51:51

he is charged for the attack on

51:53

Gary Clapp. This is Florida, right? In

51:55

the Florida case. Because Gary was able

51:57

to identify him. If Gary had died,

51:59

I always think about it. If Gary

52:02

had died, which they thought he would, would

52:04

this have ever come to light? Would

52:07

have Atlanta police have really done anything? Maybe,

52:09

maybe not. But he's put

52:11

on trial for that. And

52:13

it was it was a hard

52:15

case because Gary was so

52:17

like his alcohol level was so

52:19

high. And so to convince

52:21

a jury that that was really

52:23

high that that like he

52:25

was reliable was really difficult. So

52:28

they did something called the

52:30

Williams rule where the prosecutors, which

52:32

was it was you were

52:34

allowed to find similar cases that

52:36

had happened in different states

52:38

and use them to make your

52:40

case. So. That's when

52:42

they use Michael Jordan and Max

52:44

Schrader and they said, we will fly

52:46

you down here to make this

52:48

case. But the crazy thing, I talked

52:50

to the prosecutors and they were

52:52

like, there were so many other people

52:55

we found out who'd been his

52:57

victims. And they did not want to

52:59

come here because they didn't want

53:01

to talk about their sex life in

53:03

a trial. And they were sympathetic. The

53:05

prosecutors were like, I get it. But

53:07

some of them they convinced when they

53:09

said, look, this is this guy's either

53:11

has killed someone, we think he's killed

53:13

someone, or he's going to kill someone.

53:15

And then they convinced, but there were

53:18

so many, they talked to, there were

53:20

gay clubs in Tampa that had had

53:22

these things happen. I mean, there was

53:24

a huge thing, the amount of people

53:26

they got to testify were a handful

53:28

and they were really brave. And that's

53:30

how they got them was by the

53:32

Williams rule and having, they had to

53:34

show, they were able to show a

53:36

pattern. that this had happened and that

53:38

Max and other people had identified him

53:40

as who had attacked them. And so

53:42

that was how they were able to

53:44

do it. But despite

53:46

that, despite Max and Gary,

53:48

he still is offered a

53:50

plea deal. I know. Not

53:52

only is he offered a plea deal,

53:55

but while he's on trial and while

53:57

this is all going, he's allowed to

53:59

roam free and visit his mom, and

54:01

he keeps trying to pick up men. and

54:04

he's allowed out on bail.

54:06

But he is offered a plea

54:08

deal, and members of the

54:10

gay community were chanting in the

54:12

courtroom, shame, shame, shame. And,

54:15

you know, as the

54:17

gay advocate said, and I

54:19

agree with, if he'd

54:21

been attacking straight people, if he'd been

54:23

attacking people who weren't sex workers,

54:25

would he have been offered this? Would

54:27

he been given such

54:29

little time? No way. Um,

54:32

and I completely agree with that.

54:34

And he, you know, his attorney

54:36

who I interviewed was like this

54:38

whole time he thought the whole

54:40

thing was an inconvenience. He was

54:43

so privileged and thought, uh, you

54:45

know, I'm not, you know, I'm

54:47

going to get off because I've

54:49

gotten off so many times before.

54:51

And he was surprised to even

54:53

get put in prison. Like he

54:55

thought, you know, that's how delusional

54:57

he was. There's a couple of

55:00

things that are really disturbing to

55:02

me. Number one is, of course,

55:04

he ended up with 17 years,

55:06

right? Yes. So that must have

55:08

been very scary for the families

55:10

and the survivors. On

55:12

the surface, it's a total insult for what ended

55:14

up happening and what he was doing and

55:16

the kind of predator he was. That just seems

55:19

like an incredibly short amount of time. And

55:21

then there's the thought that, oh

55:23

my God, he's going to get out.

55:26

you know, in this certain year,

55:28

but ultimately, you know, there is

55:30

some kind of a resolution. Tell me

55:32

kind of what happens before he gets

55:34

out. Yes. So he gets 17

55:36

years. The amount of crimes that

55:38

we even have evidence for, that's

55:40

a super short period of time. And

55:44

yeah, he wasn't the type where it's like,

55:46

oh, if he gets out, he'll be reformed.

55:48

Oh, and one thing to back up, the

55:50

prosecutors that I interviewed said, They had

55:52

heard he was sick and was only going

55:54

to live 10 years. And

55:57

so that was one of the reasons

55:59

that they were like, okay, 17 years

56:01

is okay. But he dies

56:03

in prison in 1998. And

56:05

he'd only been in prison about five

56:07

years at this time. And he dies

56:09

of a stroke. And

56:11

his own lawyer, when

56:14

I interviewed her, was like, he

56:16

got the life sentence that he deserved

56:18

by dying in prison. And I

56:20

don't mean to laugh then, but she,

56:22

for your own lawyer to say

56:24

that, is pretty crazy. And

56:26

I think one thing that was interesting

56:29

was sort of his ending and his

56:31

time in prison, if I'm remembering this

56:33

right, he wanted to be in isolation

56:35

first, right? So you are right. So

56:37

he's placed it solitary confinement at his

56:39

own request, which is weird, but actually

56:41

it's not weird. Because when I talk

56:43

to his lawyer, it's like

56:45

they'll go after you if you've gone

56:47

after, if you've done heinous crimes

56:49

like this, like you are a target.

56:52

And so I think it was

56:54

a protective thing. But then he was

56:56

going buggy, his lawyer said, in

56:58

solitary as one does, until he was

57:00

put in the general prison population.

57:02

And his mom died while he was

57:04

in prison. He was very close

57:06

to his mother. He was supposed to

57:08

receive a $1 .5 million inheritance from

57:10

him. His mother seemed to never

57:12

admitted that her son did this stuff.

57:14

Like maybe at some level she

57:16

knew, but he was

57:18

like... prized child, like

57:21

only child, dressed him

57:23

like little lord, fontleroy. One

57:25

year before he was supposed to

57:28

get out, he had a stroke and

57:30

died behind bars. There were rumors

57:32

that he died of HIV related stuff.

57:34

I don't know. I couldn't find

57:36

out, you know, any other causes of

57:38

death. You know, it sounds like

57:40

the bulk of his estate went to

57:42

the Historical Society and to the

57:44

Boy Scouts. He left $25 ,000 to

57:46

the son of his friend, Ellie Harden

57:49

Smith, and $15 ,000 to the local

57:51

country club. This is the nasty

57:53

part to me. With the condition that

57:55

this bequest be acknowledged and established

57:57

as memorial to my grandfather, the Honorable

57:59

William Maxwell, my mother, and

58:01

myself, Robert Lee Bennett Jr. And

58:04

he also wanted a memorial made in

58:06

honor of he and his mother as

58:08

a condition of the gift to the

58:11

county library. And I mean, that just

58:13

makes me want to say fuck off

58:15

all of that. And I hope none

58:17

of that happened. Yeah. No, it really

58:19

was infuriating. And I don't

58:21

know. The Boy Scouts, I think,

58:23

refused his gift. Good. Did anybody

58:26

freaking learn anything from this story?

58:28

I mean, is it what was

58:30

the takeaway for these communities and

58:32

maybe even the police officers at

58:34

this point? So did

58:36

anyone learn anything from this

58:38

story? I would like to

58:40

believe that police officers, well,

58:43

one of the things

58:45

that came from this was

58:47

partly the training of

58:50

police officers on sensitivity training.

58:52

I'm not sure if the community

58:55

learned a ton, but

58:57

I do think that the publicity,

58:59

and this did get publicity

59:01

in Florida as well, was that

59:03

the victims of him, who

59:05

were sex workers and gay men,

59:07

that they were real people.

59:09

They had value. Their voices mattered.

59:12

They mattered. And, you

59:14

know, they ended up like we should listen to

59:16

them because they ended up getting this predator

59:18

behind bars. Now, when I talk,

59:20

I'm an optimistic person. When I talked

59:22

to Richard, he was like, I'd

59:24

like to believe things have changed. But

59:26

if the same thing happened in Atlanta

59:28

today, will we care if a hustler

59:30

died? And I put this in my

59:32

article and he this quote from him

59:35

and he's like, no. we would care

59:37

much more if someone died in the

59:39

wealthy Buckhead community in Atlanta. If

59:52

you love historical true crime stories,

59:54

check out the audio versions of my

59:56

books, The Ghost Club, All That

59:58

Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. And

1:00:00

don't forget, there are 12 seasons

1:00:02

of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold

1:00:04

More Wicked, right here in this

1:00:06

podcast feed. Scroll back and give them

1:00:09

a listen if you haven't already. This

1:00:11

has been an exactly right

1:00:13

production. Our senior producer is

1:00:15

Alexis Emerosi. Our associate producer

1:00:17

is Christina Chamberlain. This episode

1:00:19

was mixed by John Bradley.

1:00:21

Curtis Heath is our composer.

1:00:23

Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive

1:00:25

produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

1:00:27

Kilgariff, and Danielle Cramer. Listen

1:00:29

to Wicked Words on the

1:00:31

iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts,

1:00:33

or wherever you get your

1:00:35

podcasts. Follow Wicked Words

1:00:38

on Instagram at 10foldmorewicked

1:00:40

and on Facebook at Wicked

1:00:42

Words Pod. In

1:00:55

2020, a group of

1:00:57

young women found themselves in

1:00:59

an AI -fuelled nightmare. Someone was

1:01:01

posting photos. It was just me

1:01:03

naked. Well, not me, but

1:01:05

me with someone else's body part.

1:01:08

This is Levitown, a new podcast

1:01:10

from iHeart Podcasts, Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope,

1:01:12

about the rise of deep -fake pornography

1:01:14

and the battle to stop it.

1:01:17

Listen to Levitown on Bloomberg's Big

1:01:19

Take podcast. Find it on the

1:01:21

iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

1:01:23

you get your podcasts. In

1:01:26

Mississippi, Yazoo Clay

1:01:28

keeps secrets. Seven thousand

1:01:30

bodies out there, or

1:01:32

more. A forgotten asylum

1:01:34

cemetery. It was my

1:01:36

family's mystery. Shame,

1:01:39

guilt, propriety. Something

1:01:41

keeps it all buried deep,

1:01:43

until it's not. I'm

1:01:45

Larison Campbell, and this is

1:01:47

Under Yazoo Clay. Listen on the

1:01:49

iHeart radio app, Apple Podcast,

1:01:52

or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:02:00

then a photo of the person suspected of

1:02:02

killing her. It was shocking. It was

1:02:04

very shocking. Like that could have been my

1:02:06

daughter, like you never know. I'm Jen

1:02:08

Swan. I'm the host of a new podcast

1:02:10

called My Friend Daisy. It's

1:02:12

the story of how and why a

1:02:14

group of teenagers turned to social media to

1:02:16

help track down their friend's killer. Listen

1:02:19

to My Friend Daisy on the iHeartRadio

1:02:21

app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1:02:23

your podcasts.